transcript

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
[01:44] SiriusXM Podcasts.

Speaker 1:
[01:52] Hey, everyone, Dan here with another Reheat for you, and this one might get contentious because the questions we're gonna be addressing in this episode have been discussed and debated by the great philosophers down through the ages. Of course, we're gonna be talking about what is the true definition of a sandwich? I'll discuss that question with Peter Kim, who you heard here on the show last fall talking about his ramen cookbook. Back when we talked to him for this episode, he was the founding director of the Museum of Food and Drink. Then later in this episode, more semantic throwdowns. I'll be joined by writer and podcaster Helen Zaltzman to ponder the meaning of brunch and seltzer. Now this episode was requested by Kevin in Switzerland.

Speaker 3:
[02:31] Hello. I recently came across your episode on what makes a sandwich a sandwich. I would love to hear that episode again and also hear your take on the craze just over the border here in France of the French tacos. It doesn't have much to do with a taco in Mexico, but it's basically a version of a doner kebab with meat, some sort of cheese sauce, French fries, all wrapped into a flour tortilla and then finished on a panini press. So that squishes the burrito wrap thing into basically a sandwich-like shape. So does that count as sandwiching the ingredients? Anyway, love to hear your thoughts.

Speaker 1:
[03:15] All right, Kevin, so I have not had a French taco. I have seen them online, though. For folks who haven't seen it, at a glance, it does look like a panini, sort of a flattened sandwich with some kind of browning grill marks across the top. But the difference here is that it's more like wrapped in a flour tortilla and pressed flat. And I don't think that anything wrapped in a flour tortilla is a sandwich. It's probably delicious because I love flour tortillas and I love anything wrapped in a flour tortilla. So I'm not commenting on its deliciousness. I just think that anything that is totally wrapped 360 degrees, whether it's a burrito or even something like a dumpling, which of course is very different, but like same idea that is it is fully encased in some kind of dough, not a sandwich. Probably delicious, not a sandwich. So there you go, Kevin. Anyway, remember if there's an older episode of The Sporkful, you want us to pull out of the deep freezer. We clearly take requests. Be like Kevin in Switzerland and send me a voice memo or email to hello at sporkful.com. Tell me your name, where you're from, what episode you want to hear and why. Thanks so much and enjoy my conversations with Peter Kim and Helen Zaltzman. I'm a lover of words. And I think using the right words to describe foods is truly important. For instance, a friend may offer you a sandwich. But is it really a sandwich? You need to know if your friend is using this word correctly before answering yes or no. So this issue is crucial. Today on The Sporkful, I'll talk to Helen Zaltzman from the podcast Answer Me This and The Illusionist. She's from England, which is where they invented English. We'll discuss various food words. Is it still called brunch if you're eating it at 4pm? What's the best way to spell donut? And is sparkling water really even water?

Speaker 4:
[05:00] If you put ice in it, does that mean it's no longer water because you've got two states of matter? Does that mean it's now a colloid? Is it an emulsion because you've got a solid suspended in a liquid? You could lose yourself in a pedantic maelstrom.

Speaker 1:
[05:13] That's later in the show. But first, what makes a sandwich a sandwich? We tackled this question recently on stage at South by Southwest. From WNYC, this is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman, and we're coming to you live from South by Southwest in Austin, Texas. My first guest here at South by Southwest is the Executive Director of the Museum of Food and Drink, or MOFAD, as we call it for short. Please welcome Peter Kim.

Speaker 2:
[05:59] Hey, Dan.

Speaker 1:
[05:59] Peter, thanks for coming. Of your degrees, one of them is a law degree, right? So you are an attorney.

Speaker 2:
[06:05] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[06:05] You take the bar, you pass the bar.

Speaker 2:
[06:07] I did.

Speaker 1:
[06:07] Okay, so you're a real lawyer.

Speaker 2:
[06:08] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[06:09] All right.

Speaker 2:
[06:10] I'm also a very petty person.

Speaker 1:
[06:11] Good, well, that's great. So I wanna talk to you about the definition of a sandwich. This is a controversial topic. It's one that I've covered on The Sporkful before, and I wanna get your take. So do you have a definition that you're able to articulate?

Speaker 2:
[06:31] Well, Dan, I've been spending countless minutes thinking about this very weighty question.

Speaker 1:
[06:36] Since you got here eight minutes ago.

Speaker 2:
[06:37] I got here about eight minutes ago. So if somebody, if we were going, you're grabbing lunch for me and I said, hey, Dan, could you grab me a sandwich? And you came back with a burrito. I'd be like, what the heck, man? I asked for a sandwich, not a burrito. If you came back with a burger, similar thing. I would say, I didn't ask for a burger. I asked for a sandwich. But yet a burger might technically be considered a sandwich.

Speaker 1:
[07:00] That's right.

Speaker 2:
[07:01] A burrito might also technically be considered a sandwich. So, you know, I don't think we can just look to what we mean when we use it in sort of common parlance. But we also have to think about technically, what is a sandwich? And this really can take you down the rabbit hole, I think.

Speaker 1:
[07:17] Let's go, let's jump in with both feet.

Speaker 2:
[07:19] Like, I guess the question is, you know, where is the soul of the sandwich? What makes a sandwich a sandwich? You know, I think we kind of have to return to that question. And so I guess one way to do that is we could take a sandwich that we all agree on as being a sandwich and start to tweak different components of the sandwich and see if we still agree that it's still a sandwich. So let's say, let's take the turkey club example, right? Can we agree on what the components of a turkey club sandwich are?

Speaker 1:
[07:44] Turkey, bacon, three slices of bread, lettuce, tomato, mayo, right?

Speaker 2:
[07:50] Okay, so now if we subtract the lettuce and tomato from a turkey club sandwich, still a sandwich, right?

Speaker 1:
[07:56] Still a sandwich, yes.

Speaker 2:
[07:57] Okay. Then, you know, if you subtract the middle piece of bread, still a sandwich. If you leave it at just the meat, still a sandwich, right?

Speaker 1:
[08:04] Just the meat with bread on top and bottom?

Speaker 2:
[08:06] Yeah, top and bottom bread, still the meat. What if it were just the mayonnaise between two slices of bread?

Speaker 1:
[08:13] Well, that's a great question. I would argue that that's a spread and not a filling.

Speaker 2:
[08:18] Right.

Speaker 1:
[08:18] But this brings me to, you know, New York State has addressed this question.

Speaker 2:
[08:21] Oh, interesting. I did not know that.

Speaker 1:
[08:23] I have here in my possession, New York State Tax Bulletin ST-835, issue date April 13th, 2011. Introduction. Sandwiches are generally subject to sales tax. This bulletin explains what is considered a sandwich for sales tax purposes. And New York State goes on to include, as sandwiches, buttered rolls.

Speaker 2:
[08:47] Oh, interesting.

Speaker 1:
[08:49] As well as burritos, wraps, pita sandwiches, hot dogs. I mean, they just want to tax anything they can get their hands on. Clearly, I mean, this is outrageous. Funnily enough, though, it doesn't say open-faced sandwiches.

Speaker 2:
[09:02] Well, you know what? I have to say, I don't share the same level of incredulity as you do.

Speaker 1:
[09:07] You think a buttered roll is a sandwich?

Speaker 2:
[09:09] I think it could be. I mean, let's look at, like, what if you had avocado spread in between two pieces of bread?

Speaker 1:
[09:16] If it's a spread, it's a spread. There's a difference between a filling and a spread. I mean, you know, we can't have anarchy here, Peter.

Speaker 2:
[09:23] Oh, no, but I think we can have flexibility, though. Think about the cream cheese between in a bagel. You know, that's actually called a sandwich in a lot of bagel shops.

Speaker 1:
[09:34] Well, that's just because they want to New York State force them. Yeah, that's why. I'm a strict constructionist on this issue. I believe you must we must look to the framers' original intent. Look to the Earl of Sandwiches' original intent.

Speaker 2:
[09:50] I'm familiar with your kind.

Speaker 1:
[09:53] It's my strict constructionism that has led me to be dubbed the Scalia of Sandwiches. And I have a two part test. And the part one is you have to be able to pick it up and eat it without utensils and without your hands touching the fillings. Now if it's a little messy and the fillings get on your hands a little bit, it may be a poorly made sandwich. But I think that the intent is still the key.

Speaker 2:
[10:21] You think that burrito is a sandwich.

Speaker 1:
[10:23] No. Well, if you're only looking at part one, this is the second part of the test. The fillings must be sandwiched between two separate hand ready food items. In other words, something's got to get sandwiched.

Speaker 2:
[10:40] I actually think that we might need to think about there being two different kinds of sandwiches. One is a sandwich that we understand as being a sandwich, which is like a turkey club, you know, the sort of prototypical sandwich. But then there's a sort of metaphysical umbrella concept of a sandwich, which would include things like burgers and even gasp burritos.

Speaker 1:
[11:00] When we were emailing about this beforehand, you emailed to me and you said, I even remember studying the famous burrito sandwich case way back in law school.

Speaker 2:
[11:09] That's right, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[11:10] I looked it up based on your email.

Speaker 2:
[11:11] Oh yeah.

Speaker 1:
[11:12] I'll help you fill in the details. Panera Leaf Space in the White City Shopping Center on Route 9 in Shrewsbury, Mass.

Speaker 2:
[11:17] Right.

Speaker 1:
[11:18] And as part of their lease, the shopping center said we won't open any other sandwich shops in the mall.

Speaker 2:
[11:24] Right.

Speaker 1:
[11:25] Then a Qdoba came in selling burritos and quesadillas, and Panera said, What gives? Burritos and quesadillas are sandwiches.

Speaker 2:
[11:35] Right. Right. Right.

Speaker 1:
[11:36] And do you recall what happened?

Speaker 2:
[11:37] What the judge did in that case is looked at what the understanding likely was between the parties on what a sandwich was. And I think the judge found that probably the burritos were not what they were contemplating.

Speaker 1:
[11:51] So that's right. The judge found that the term sandwich is not ambiguous. The lease is therefore governed by the word sandwich's ordinary dictionary meaning, which requires two pieces of bread.

Speaker 2:
[12:02] Right.

Speaker 1:
[12:03] Which I disagree with. I mean, do you agree with me that you can have a breadless sandwich?

Speaker 4:
[12:07] Whoa.

Speaker 2:
[12:09] No, I don't know about that.

Speaker 1:
[12:11] I mean, if you take like two potato pancakes. Right. And put something between and put bacon or whatever, smoked salmon between them, isn't that a sandwich?

Speaker 2:
[12:21] Now, when I would look at that, I would say that's a sandwich like product. It's an issue of definition for what purpose, right? And so, you know, I think that there are a lot of different levels of sandwich definition. A sandwich, you might even say, of sandwich definition.

Speaker 1:
[12:44] Do we have any questions? Is there anybody who has an objection to any of the points that have been made? Would you like to weigh in on one of these issues of sandwichdom? I'm Jane.

Speaker 4:
[12:51] I'm from New York.

Speaker 2:
[12:52] Hey, Jane.

Speaker 4:
[12:53] How about a peanut butter sandwich?

Speaker 1:
[12:56] Peanut butter sandwich. Is peanut butter a spread or a filling? That's the ultimate question.

Speaker 2:
[13:00] Yeah. But even then, I think spreads can make sandwiches.

Speaker 1:
[13:03] So, you say yes, clearly.

Speaker 2:
[13:05] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[13:09] As I said, I think that it depends on how it's used. And I think that with peanut butter, if you're spreading it on just a thin spread, then it's just a spread. If you're like, glopping on, when I make a peanut butter and jelly, sometimes I'm using like three tablespoons of peanut butter.

Speaker 2:
[13:22] So Dan, what you're telling me is that when you take a spoonful or a knife full of peanut butter and you spread it on once, not a sandwich, spread it on twice, not a sandwich. Somewhere on that third swipe, like halfway across the bread, it has suddenly become a sandwich. Interesting.

Speaker 1:
[13:40] It's all about the difference between a spread and fillings.

Speaker 2:
[13:43] Right.

Speaker 1:
[13:44] I will also say if you add jelly, it's definitely a sandwich. Once you have multiple spreads, I think that crosses the line.

Speaker 2:
[13:52] Mayonnaise and mustard. What about Dijonais? What if it's a mayonnaise mustard mix?

Speaker 1:
[13:57] I think Dijonais, I think that if the Dijon and the mayonnaise are mixed before being spread on the bread, then it's a spread.

Speaker 2:
[14:04] Interesting.

Speaker 1:
[14:04] But if there's put on the bread separately, it's a sandwich.

Speaker 2:
[14:08] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[14:10] Next question. Yes, sir.

Speaker 5:
[14:11] I'm Jeremy from Austin. Hey, Jeremy. Hey.

Speaker 6:
[14:15] Does a grilled cheese count as a sandwich?

Speaker 5:
[14:17] Is the cheese substantial enough to count as a filling?

Speaker 1:
[14:19] I think cheese is. What do you think?

Speaker 5:
[14:21] I mean, by your definition, I would say probably not.

Speaker 6:
[14:24] I think so, but it seems more-

Speaker 2:
[14:26] Well, see, Dan's got this country club view of sandwiches, where you have to really meet all these different standards. You've got to get vetted. You have to be-

Speaker 1:
[14:35] I'm a strict constructionist. Oh, wait.

Speaker 2:
[14:38] Are you two sauces? Okay, come on into the sandwich club. Are you two sauces that have been pre-mixed before it come? Oh, wait. No, no. We don't like your kind.

Speaker 1:
[14:45] Well, meanwhile-

Speaker 2:
[14:46] Step away, non-sandwich. But I do think there are boundaries here. I mean, I do think, yes, it has to be something that fulfills the function of a sandwich, which is something that you can eat with your hands on the go.

Speaker 1:
[14:58] So for you, lasagna, not a sandwich?

Speaker 2:
[15:00] Not a sandwich. No, not a sandwich.

Speaker 1:
[15:02] So you have standards after all.

Speaker 2:
[15:03] I do have some standards. I do. Anything could be thought of as something in between other things.

Speaker 1:
[15:08] What's something-

Speaker 2:
[15:09] Are we living? We were all sandwiches, maybe. No, because- I just had a Zen moment, guys. And I realized, you know what? I'm actually going to stop working on the Museum of Food and Drink right now.

Speaker 1:
[15:21] Totally.

Speaker 2:
[15:22] I've realized. Yeah. I found my true calling.

Speaker 1:
[15:25] Right. By the way, though, now that I think about it, we're not all sandwiches, Peter. We're all burritos.

Speaker 2:
[15:31] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[15:33] Because we're all wrapped. We're completely wrapped. Our skin is a tortilla. Right.

Speaker 2:
[15:41] Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, dude.

Speaker 1:
[15:47] Ponder that, man. Ponder that.

Speaker 2:
[15:49] Dude, we are all burritos, man.

Speaker 1:
[15:54] All right. Well, Peter Kim, Executive Director of the Museum of Food and Drink. He thinks he's a sandwich, but I think he's a burrito. Thanks so much, Peter. Big hand for Peter Kim. The Museum of Food and Drink plans to open a brick-and-mortar museum in New York in 2019. They'll have edible exhibits and a giant cereal gun. Yes, cereal gun. Till then, they're doing pop-up exhibits all over the place and a bunch of other fun stuff. For more info, go to mofad.org. Coming up, language buff Helen Zaltzman explains why she'll never order a panini, and I try to convince her that sparkling water isn't water. Stick around.

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Speaker 1:
[19:48] Welcome back to another Sporkful Reheat. I'm Dan Pashman. Wanna watch me walking my dog while ranting about some food related issue that's on my mind? Wanna see what I'm cooking? Wanna see what I'm eating? The best way to do that is to follow me on Instagram. My kids make occasional appearances. There's a lot of fun to be had. So please follow me on Instagram, at the Sporkful. Again, that's at the Sporkful. Thanks. Now back to this week's reheat. I was really excited recently when I got an email from Helen Zaltzman. She said she was coming to the US from her home in London, and she wanted to have brunch. Now, Helen hosts two smart, fun podcasts that I really like. One's called Answer Me This, the other is called The Illusionist. That's Illusionist with an A. It's a pun. Get it? We met up at New York Square Diner in Tribeca, classic old school joint. We began with a question that Helen had come so far to ask.

Speaker 4:
[20:38] Firstly, Dan, what is brunch? Is it a question of the foodstuffs being brunch-ish rather than like lunch or like breakfast? Or is it the time when you eat it? Is it specifically, say, mid-morning? What are the rules to make it brunch rather than breakfast or lunch?

Speaker 1:
[20:57] Typically, I find that most brunch items on a menu are not actually a fusion of breakfast and lunch foods. They're actually half breakfast foods, typical breakfast foods, and half lunch foods.

Speaker 4:
[21:09] So you might have cereal on a roast chicken. Is that what you're positing, Dan?

Speaker 1:
[21:15] No, what I'm positing is that the left side of the menu will be eggs and French toast and pancakes, and the right side will be sandwiches and burgers and steaks.

Speaker 4:
[21:23] I don't think they belong in brunch steaks, unless it's accompanied by, yeah, unless it's got an egg on it, I guess.

Speaker 1:
[21:29] I feel like there's much too much focus on, like, this is a breakfast food versus this is a dinner food. Like, I'll eat sushi for breakfast and oatmeal for dinner.

Speaker 4:
[21:36] And then you get dressed and go to bed. Shit madness. No, I agree, because like, cold Chinese food, say, for breakfast. What a magnificent thing.

Speaker 1:
[21:46] Great breakfast.

Speaker 4:
[21:47] Yeah. So would you say, technically, there are foods that are too lunch to be brunch foods? Or do you think it's just fair game?

Speaker 1:
[21:55] I don't think any food is too much one meal to be any other meal.

Speaker 4:
[21:58] Okay. Such an equal opportunist.

Speaker 1:
[22:00] Yes.

Speaker 4:
[22:01] I wonder how they draw the distinction then? And is there like an earliest or latest time for brunch to be brunch rather than breakfast?

Speaker 1:
[22:08] Well here's one of my big points that I want to get your take on, Helen.

Speaker 4:
[22:11] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[22:12] I would argue that, so we get the word breakfast, break fast.

Speaker 4:
[22:17] We do.

Speaker 1:
[22:19] Whatever the first meal of the day for you is, whenever it comes during the day, you are breaking your fast since the previous night.

Speaker 4:
[22:28] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[22:28] So the first meal of the day, technically speaking, is always, should always be called breakfast.

Speaker 4:
[22:34] But what if you haven't been to sleep? Then does the whole, That's a good question. Is this like a before and after midnight thing like in Gremlins? You're opening up more problems than you're solving with it.

Speaker 1:
[22:45] I think for it to be brunch, it has to be a true combination of breakfast and lunch, meaning that it has to be, I will grant you for the sake of linguistic expedience.

Speaker 4:
[22:57] Thanks.

Speaker 1:
[22:58] It can be the first meal of the day, but it has to replace both breakfast and lunch.

Speaker 4:
[23:02] Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[23:04] If you eat three meals in a day, then you did not have brunch. So, Helen, we did an episode recently on The Sporkful all about donuts.

Speaker 4:
[23:16] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[23:17] And several listeners were disappointed that I did not address the question of the spelling of donuts.

Speaker 4:
[23:22] Were they?

Speaker 1:
[23:23] They want to know what's quote unquote correct, but also just like they wanted to hear a debate or a discussion about it.

Speaker 4:
[23:27] Okay. Let's give them what they want.

Speaker 1:
[23:30] Right. What's your take?

Speaker 4:
[23:33] Well, I was surprised actually that the economical spelling, the D-O-N-U-T, is actually pretty old. It's almost as old as donut, which come on, it's from the early 19th century donuts as in D-O-U-G-H. But then the shorter spelling is only a couple of decades later. So that's been in currency a long time. And I think the economical version is good because it can only really be pronounced that way. Whereas O-U and G-H, they present a lot of potential different pronunciation options.

Speaker 1:
[24:02] Yeah, like you could call it a duh nut.

Speaker 4:
[24:04] Yeah, or a duff nut.

Speaker 1:
[24:05] Right.

Speaker 4:
[24:06] Or a dug nut.

Speaker 1:
[24:07] A dug nut.

Speaker 4:
[24:07] Nightmare.

Speaker 1:
[24:08] People named Doug wouldn't appreciate that.

Speaker 4:
[24:10] And also, well, they might. Finally, some recognition. We just dealt with this on my podcast Answer Me This in association with the question about what's the correct spelling of yogurt or yogurt, as I believe you pronounce it in the United States.

Speaker 1:
[24:22] There's a lot of options for that.

Speaker 4:
[24:23] Yeah, but it's a Turkish word, so it's difficult to import Turkish into English.

Speaker 1:
[24:27] So what did you decide on?

Speaker 4:
[24:28] I'm okay with the H. I'm okay with the H.

Speaker 1:
[24:31] Really? If you saw that, you wouldn't think that those people were being pretentious?

Speaker 4:
[24:35] I think it's more similar to the Turkish spelling to have the H, but then it would be pronounced differently. It represents Turkish phoneme we don't have, but is how it's spelled in Turkish more similarly to English.

Speaker 1:
[24:46] So at a Turkish restaurant, I'm cool with the H.

Speaker 4:
[24:48] They can do what they want. They know more Turkish than me. It's their word.

Speaker 1:
[24:52] But if I was at some sort of hipster brunch place, I would be like, ugh, you people.

Speaker 4:
[24:59] What makes you think that, do you think? What's in that H that upsets you so much?

Speaker 1:
[25:03] To me, it mostly would come across as an affectation. An assumption that this is somehow a fancier or more in air quotes authentic way to spell the word. Yeah. It's trying to claim a history that you don't really have a right to claim because it happens to be trendy.

Speaker 4:
[25:21] All that in just one H? Yes. Because I'm blind to the H. Maybe they just spell it how it's spelled on the container that they bought it in. But what I do get really annoyed about is panini.

Speaker 1:
[25:34] Okay.

Speaker 4:
[25:34] We have those here, right? The sandwich, panini sandwich.

Speaker 1:
[25:36] Press sandwich, yeah.

Speaker 4:
[25:37] Yeah. And it's not panini itself. It's the fact that in Britain, we imported the word panini and then pluralized it paninis. Whereas panini is already a plural word. Why didn't we import the singular word? It drives me crazy.

Speaker 1:
[25:50] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[25:50] So now I won't eat them. Because I do not want to order one.

Speaker 1:
[25:54] Right. So one would be a panino.

Speaker 4:
[25:56] Yeah. One is a panino. But I would feel like a pretentious ass if I went in and said, give me a panino, please. So I can't do it. So they're dead to me. It's fine because they're not even my top five sandwich.

Speaker 1:
[26:06] So really, I actually I like a good panino.

Speaker 4:
[26:09] Yeah. But would you say panino just to be right?

Speaker 1:
[26:12] No. Coming up, Helen and I talk about sparkling water and I attempt to convince her that it's not actually water. That's it for the break. Stick around. It's time to open up a can of advertisements.

Speaker 6:
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Speaker 5:
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Speaker 5:
[27:02] Hey, it's Francis Lam, host of The Splendid Table. Every week on our show, we talk about food and cooking and the meanings of food and cooking. We talk with the most interesting people in food about their techniques, their culture, and everything in between. Whether it's about how fried chicken took over the world, or how Instagram changes the way people are actually eating. It's a food show where everyone is welcome. Come join us. You can listen to The Splendid Table wherever you get your podcast.

Speaker 1:
[27:35] Welcome back to The Sporkful. I'm Dan Pashman. Let's get back now to my conversation with Helen Zaltzman. I want to talk to you about sparkling water.

Speaker 4:
[27:44] Good. I'm fond of it as a drink.

Speaker 1:
[27:46] What do you call it?

Speaker 4:
[27:47] I like to call it fizzy water. So I think sparkling is a bit pretentious. But in Britain as well, we don't have the terms that you have like club soda or seltzer. Seltzer sounds quite medical to me. So what's your issue with it, Dan?

Speaker 1:
[28:01] Well, I don't think it's water.

Speaker 4:
[28:04] How?

Speaker 1:
[28:05] Because in order to make it, you take water, H2O, and you add CO2, carbon dioxide.

Speaker 4:
[28:13] In kind of separate bubbles.

Speaker 1:
[28:17] Well, but it changes the flavor.

Speaker 4:
[28:19] Yeah, but putting a slice of lemon in it would change the flavor. But you would still consider it water, wouldn't you? Because it's overwhelmingly water.

Speaker 1:
[28:26] Yes, but so is tea overwhelmingly water.

Speaker 4:
[28:28] Yes, delicious tea water. And milk, yeah, and human bodies.

Speaker 1:
[28:34] Why is tea not flavored water?

Speaker 4:
[28:38] Is it something of whether the experience and the character of the thing is still dominantly water? So like you add a lemon slice, you add carbonation to the water, it still tastes watery. Whereas if you add, say, cordial or something like that, then it takes on a different character. But where's the dividing line for you?

Speaker 1:
[28:56] But every liquid is mostly water.

Speaker 4:
[29:00] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[29:00] So I just feel like the only logical place, because it's such a slippery slope.

Speaker 4:
[29:07] Absolutely, because of the water.

Speaker 1:
[29:09] Right. The only logical place to draw a line is at H2O.

Speaker 4:
[29:15] Yes, but then the water we drink has got other chemicals in it. It's got fluorine or chlorine in it. City water has got probably other things we don't want to know about.

Speaker 1:
[29:23] What are the things that ended up there through natural processes?

Speaker 4:
[29:27] Yeah, natural and non-natural, I think.

Speaker 1:
[29:29] Or maybe a natural or unintentional processes. I feel like the intent must be for it to be H2O, for it to be called water.

Speaker 4:
[29:38] Okay, and then what about the water of the oceans that has salts and a whole load of crap in it? Are you suggesting the oceans are not made of water, Dan?

Speaker 1:
[29:50] That is a good question. I guess we need to have a second definition for water outside of the realm of food and drink.

Speaker 4:
[29:56] I think you do, but I'm not sure that everyone does.

Speaker 1:
[30:00] So what's your take?

Speaker 4:
[30:01] I did not have a problem with this until now. I was just happy with the situation as it was. I think you're getting yourself into potential problems. Like you could be saying, if you put ice in it, does that mean it's no longer water because you've got two states of matter? Does that mean it's now a colloid? Is it an emulsion because you've got a solid suspended in a liquid? It's a dangerous path you're walking up. By dangerous, I mean you could just lose yourself in a pedantic maelstrom if you pursue this to its natural conclusions.

Speaker 1:
[30:29] Helen, I think we're already there.

Speaker 6:
[30:31] I think we are.

Speaker 4:
[30:33] What are these liquids in front of me? Are they even liquids at all or just imaginations?

Speaker 1:
[30:38] Is this all a dream?

Speaker 4:
[30:39] I think it might be.

Speaker 1:
[30:44] That's Helen Zaltzman. She's the host of two great podcasts, Answer Me This and The Illusionist. That's Illusionist with an A. That's distributed by our friends at Radiotopia. In case you're curious, Helen had pancakes with a side of bacon. And actually, I made her order a second side of bacon so I could build her a pork lift. Pork lift is this bacon lattice structure that I invented where you build the bacon lattice and put it underneath the pancake stack to elevate the bottom pancake off the plate. That way when syrup pools on the plate, the bottom pancake doesn't turn soggy. And I think Helen was pretty impressed. I had to touch a lot of her food in order to build her the pork lift. And she didn't seem disgusted. So I think it was a win. As for me, I went for my classic brunch standby inside-out omelet sandwich. I got a ham and cheddar omelet. Then you carve out a circle of omelet that's the same shape as the English muffin. You get on the side and then flip it inside out. So the cheese from the inside is now on the outside, top and bottom. This brings the cheese closer to your tongue to accentuate cheesy goodness and also helps fuse the omelet to the English muffin. And then I put some home fries in the middle. And it was really good. By the way, if you enjoyed this episode, I hope you'll check out my book, which has a whole chapter called Language Arts, all about food and language. It covers a lot more ground than we were able to cover in the podcast today. The book's called Eat More Better, How to Make Every Bite More Delicious. Get it at sporkful.com or wherever books are sold. Please remember to subscribe to this podcast on iTunes or add it to your list of favorites or whatever you have to do in your app to make sure you don't miss an episode. Please do that. You can even do it right now. You don't even have to stop listening. All set? Great, thanks. This show is a production of WNYC and The Sporkful. It's produced by Anne Saini and me. Special thanks to the Talmolad. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

Speaker 5:
[32:37] And we're Owen.

Speaker 1:
[32:38] And Anna.

Speaker 2:
[32:39] From Athens, Georgia. Reminding you to...

Speaker 1:
[32:42] Eat More.

Speaker 2:
[32:42] Eat Better. And Eat More Better.

Speaker 1:
[33:00] This reheat was produced by Gianna Palmer. The team that produces The Sporkful today includes me, along with managing producer, Emma Morgenstern, and senior producer, Andres O'Hara. Our engineer is Jared O'Connell. Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of SiriusXM Podcasts. Our executive producer is Kameel Stanley. And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era. Plus, live sports coverage, does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app, all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.