transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] Welcome back to another episode of The Mac Rumors Show. I am Dan, and we have Hartley here in person. High five, this is not AI or Photoshop, or whatever people will say. We're actually on our yearly retreat, where what happens every time we go on a retreat? Either a product gets announced or what?

Speaker 2:
[00:19] Breaking news.

Speaker 1:
[00:20] Breaking news, which is what our entire episode is about. And if you guys are like, what is happening? Or even living under a rock for the last 72 hours, or when this news broke on Monday, I believe. Tim Cook is out. Well, will be out on September 1st, which is surprising to me because I didn't see this coming right away. I think we all knew this was going to happen at some point. We've had the groundwork been laid by a lot of reports. But then Tim, weirdly, less than a month ago, didn't he say, I can't imagine my life without Apple or moving on. Like, I'm here, blah, blah, blah. And now he's stepping down as CEO, but moving into a different role. So your initial thoughts on this?

Speaker 2:
[01:03] Well, this is something that we've been expecting for quite some time. I mean, I certainly believe that a lot of these initial reports that have come out over the last year, there was a major one in the Financial Times, for example. This was all to lay the groundwork so that shareholders were not spooked when this was announced. It was all very choreographed and very much well planned. I think what was perhaps surprising was that this was at 4 p.m. on a random Monday.

Speaker 1:
[01:31] Yeah. I mean, I feel like that was the stock market thing so that it didn't overreact right away.

Speaker 2:
[01:36] Well, certainly, at the very least, it was late in the day.

Speaker 1:
[01:40] Just a random news dump.

Speaker 2:
[01:41] Yeah. And it's to downplay the extent of the transition. And there is a whole transition period taking place here. Tim is not actually going to vacate the position of CEO until September 1st, when John Ternus will take over. But crucially, Tim is going to become the executive chairman of the board, which is different to the current chairman who is a non-executive chairman. So what that means is that Tim Cook will effectively be John Ternus' direct manager. So he will still be heavily involved, and certainly more heavily involved than Arthur Levinson, who is currently the non-executive chairman of the board. So this is a little bit of a different dynamic to what we've been used to, because right now, as CEO and throughout his premiership, Tim Cook has not had someone providing direct oversight and supervision in the way that he will do with John Ternus. So it begs the question of, does that mean that he won't have quite as much maneuverability as Tim Cook had? But perhaps this is all part of a transition, and eventually he will become a non-executive chairman. But I think it's good, you know, Tim Cook is very experienced.

Speaker 1:
[03:01] So you think this is part of a transition plan then? So maybe for the next year or two, he kind of works with Tim, but Tim is more off to the side when it comes to direct product releases and announcements. John is going to be the face now, but he still kind of has to answer to somebody unlike Tim Cook now, who really doesn't answer to anyone but the board. So it's kind of that same thing, because I'm worried, is this just going to be Tim pulling strings from the ether?

Speaker 2:
[03:26] I don't know. I mean, I think it's clear that Tim Cook has pivoted over the last couple of years away from products towards policy issues, political issues, and he will effectively continue doing that. I mean, Apple have said that he's going to continue to focus on policy. That's clearly his strong point. He's never been a product person. I mean, this is the main narrative that surrounds this transition, that John Ternus is a hardware guy, and Tim Cook has never been that sort of person. He is known for managing Apple's supply chain, not for having a focus on specific hardware innovations or even actually software. And he is known for effectively ruling by committee and perhaps being a little bit less decisive. And one of the reports we had from Mark Gurman this week after the news was announced was that John Ternus is expected to be much more decisive and is expected to, whether these decisions are right or wrong, to take a firm decision, whereas Tim Cook would prevaricate slightly more, get more inputs, which is a different leadership style. It's perfectly valid.

Speaker 1:
[04:45] It makes other people feel more part of the team kind of thing, where it's not just one ruler.

Speaker 2:
[04:49] And be more cautious, which we've seen sometimes perhaps be more unsuccessful with Apple Intelligence, where you can see that perhaps the wrong direction was taken. But in other situations, I mean, undeniably, Apple's growth in services is a major part of Tim Cook's legacy. And it's perhaps not the most exciting thing. But that has been a tremendous achievement for the company that just was non-existent at the time you took over.

Speaker 1:
[05:15] Let's see. What concerns me is that we see that report about, you know, we're getting back to a Steve Jobs level of leadership where he's going to make decisive decisions. But if he's still answering to Tim Cook, it's not like Tim Cook's philosophy on how he did things in the past is going to change. Is he going to really like, okay, John, if you want my advice, I'll give you my advice. But it's your call at the end of the day. Or is he going to is that going to affect John's ability, which up until now was make strong decisions. He's more decisive. Is that going to change?

Speaker 2:
[05:46] I think that Tim Cook will be hands off with products. I mean, I actually think to some extent that's already happened. So John Ternus has been spearheading all of Apple's new smart home products that we're expecting. So that includes the Smart Home Hub, the Next Generation Home Pod, the Next Generation Apple TV, the Tabletop Robot, and the Smart Home Security Camera. That's a whole load of products. The MacBook Neo is a Ternus product.

Speaker 1:
[06:13] And he was front and center at that New York portion of the event. They had it in different countries. But he was out there. There was no Tim Cook. It was John Ternus that came out. And I made the joke, like, here's Apple's new CEO.

Speaker 2:
[06:26] And it doesn't feel like a Tim Cook product, the MacBook Neo. It does feel like something new. I think that that is indicative of what's to come. And crucially, also, when the handoff takes place, that will be on the 1st of September, which is before the announcement of the new iPhones.

Speaker 1:
[06:42] No more Good Mornings. Well, maybe WWDC.

Speaker 2:
[06:45] Well, I think that John Ternus will carry on the torch of the...

Speaker 1:
[06:50] Good Morning.

Speaker 2:
[06:51] The classic Apple Good Morning.

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Speaker 2:
[08:27] I would be shocked if you didn't.

Speaker 1:
[08:27] He'll say it, but he's not going to say it in Tim Cook. I'm going to tell you right now, John, if you want a way to win over, break the ice. I mean, these aren't... First off, he should bring back live events, just from a personal standpoint. If you really want to separate yourself from the Tim Cook era, Tim Cook had those, but not as many. Okay. Most of the last six years have been, obviously, since COVID has been the pre-recorded stuff. I know Apple seemingly loves that, but if you want to break away and put your foot back into the Steve Jobs world, bring back the live events, bring back the live demos. You could do portions of it if you want to speed up some time, show some product videos. That's fine. You can still do a hybrid, but I still think what people are watching at home, should be what we see, which is when they come out in the beginning, they are talking to us. It's brief, but let's extend that. Let's do a couple of live demos. Don't be afraid of that. If he wants to make something really fun, he should come out and do a proper invitation of The Good Morning in Tim Cook's voice as best as he can. I think that would be really funny.

Speaker 2:
[09:26] I think that this all kind of speaks to the real question that surrounds John Ternus because we're hearing conflicting things. So, on the one hand, he's a company guy. He would be a safe pair of hands and will effectively continue what the company is doing. By all means, he's not going to be radical or doing anything drastically different. But on the other hand, we're getting this narrative that he's kind of the next Steve Jobs. What I'm really interested in is my biggest criticism of the Cook era is that I feel like Apple became too corporate. And I understand that's inevitable when a company scales as Apple has. But it feels like it lost a lot of its edge and playfulness and willingness to just try things whether they worked out or not. And the live events are part of that where I feel like they became very sterile. And a lot of the personality that Apple had in the 2000s, I feel like that has been lost over the Cook era. And the MacBook Neo bodes really well because that is such a fun product. I would love to see that kind of atmosphere coming through with a lot more product lines. And in the product marketing as well, because a lot of the product marketing, I feel like, you know, what was the iPhone 15 Pro's tagline? Titanium, full stop, period, as you would say.

Speaker 1:
[10:59] I mean, it is titanium.

Speaker 2:
[11:03] But it's just...

Speaker 1:
[11:04] I get what you mean.

Speaker 2:
[11:05] That's what I would have expected from Samsung. Where's the playfulness?

Speaker 1:
[11:08] Here's my advice to John. John, you're not Steve Jobs. No one's Steve Jobs. Don't try to be Steve Jobs. Be who you want to be. And I think naturally that will take you away from what Tim has done, where he really wasn't trying to be Steve. I don't really know what he was trying to be. I think he was trying to be something that pleased everyone. Just do what you think is best. It's your company now to run. And you've seen what works, you've seen what doesn't work. Try your best to add your own style in and lead your own way and make decisions. No, I'm tired of this, Steve. He's been dead for, it stinks, but that just is what it is. It's time to move on. You can still keep the history and the culture that it was, if you would like to honor, but you still have to do it your own way. And I think that's the best way and I'm sure he knows that. And of course, the board would like you to do it. That's, you know, in the best way for money, which is what it always is. But I am excited to see how John kind of adds his own style and what's to come. I will say, we can go through some of the things that he's done in the past. It is not all great. I gotta say, Butterfly Keyboard. Now, huge fan of the Butterfly Keyboard. I love it. It was an unmitigated disaster from a hardware issue. It was a good idea. I think it was really nice. The ones that worked was not a very good start there.

Speaker 2:
[12:30] No. I mean, he did take the fall for this internally, which is part of the reason I think he's been selected because he's a good manager. He is not someone that tries to cover up mistakes or pass the buck. He's willing to admit when something hasn't worked. So although the feature itself was a failure, the wider lesson that comes from that is that he was able to deal with that situation and was willing to say, okay, this hasn't worked and this is my fault, which is something that you really do need.

Speaker 1:
[13:04] Sure. It wasn't a bad idea. It just wasn't executed properly.

Speaker 2:
[13:09] On the other hand, one of the other things that's really interesting is he was very anti-vision pro.

Speaker 1:
[13:14] Well, yeah, that's what I was going to say.

Speaker 2:
[13:15] He was also anti-Apple car. He believed that these things would not work. And I think that's really interesting because I think that, broadly, although I know some people are very passionate about the Vision Pro and love using it, and it is undeniably a great experience when you use that product for a limited time or the first time you use it, that has not been a success for Apple. And I would go as far as to say it pretty much has failed.

Speaker 1:
[13:40] I agree with you. But what this tells me when we're looking at our notes of past work and I see reluctant to fund ambitious projects and was opposed to Vision Pro and Apple Car, which are ambitious products and projects. That makes me nervous for the future. Are we just going to get some of the same old same old? Because that's what I want. I want Apple to go back to being ambitious, be bold, do those daring things. Those are daring things. You have to try it.

Speaker 2:
[14:08] But I don't know that I don't know that the Vision Pro and the Apple Car were daring in the right way.

Speaker 1:
[14:15] And that's fair.

Speaker 2:
[14:16] What exactly was... The Apple Car, it's never emerged. And it was never a serious contender. It was just a massive drain on money. And when you look at what they were planning to do with that product, a self-driving car that was ostensibly really ugly, actually, with benches all the way around on the inside, very expensive, this is not really a compelling product. It was never going to stand up to Tesla or Lucid, any of these other brands. And the Vision Pro, yes, the hardware is so much better than many rival headsets, but really, there's a lot of problems with that product. And does it really change what you can do with mixed reality? Not really.

Speaker 1:
[15:04] It's fair, but to just not want to do it at all is what concerns me, that's all. You have to try it. You have to try something. It's easy for me to be like, oh, we've got all these great ideas, but we're not going to do it because it's probably not going to work. Well, I mean, how do you know?

Speaker 2:
[15:17] And also, one area in which John Ternus did effectively do that and it did not work out was the smart home. So he was one of the main voices with Apple that did not really get to the growth of smart speakers in the mid-2010s. And he was responsible for the HomePod. And there were originally plans on the original HomePod to include a camera and a variety of additional sensors. And he pulled those features.

Speaker 1:
[15:42] Yeah, I mean, that's what concerns me. These are features that I'm interested in because anyone can do a speaker. There are so many smart speakers out there these days. Where's the innovation behind going further than that? And if he's reluctant to cut all these things and he doesn't want to fund ambitious projects and he doesn't want to take those risks, we might be in a boring era of Apple coming up.

Speaker 2:
[16:03] But also, I think what made the Steve Jobs era work is that as much as there was ambition, there was a lot of restraint and there was a lot of understanding that we don't need to make printers. We don't need to make a lot of products that other companies do very well and Apple should focus on what it does, what it can do the best. If we can have a little bit more of that. I mean, it's a little bit like, I love my AirPods Max, but I always come back to this, that the AirPods Max are a very mixed product and I'm not sure that Apple really ever needed to make an over-ear pair of headphones. I mean, what do they do really distinctively better and distinctively Apple that Sony even beats can't do?

Speaker 1:
[16:54] Yeah, but if they don't take these risks in other product categories, then you're never going to get things like the iPod because there were other MP3 players that existed or...

Speaker 2:
[17:01] And I know you couldn't always say that, but sometimes...

Speaker 1:
[17:04] You have to take a swing.

Speaker 2:
[17:05] You have to take a swing, but also you have to know when not to do that. Agreed.

Speaker 1:
[17:09] Yeah, I totally agree. It's a fine line.

Speaker 2:
[17:12] And that's what's going to be so interesting about him, because I think there's no doubt that he has such a different background to Tim Cook. And he's someone who seems to be willing to take firm decisions, but learn from those mistakes and is willing to pivot quite quickly. And really, that's what Apple needs, because things are changing. I mean, AI is changing everything. And there are so many new products, so many new hardware products in the pipeline. We've mentioned all these smart home products. There are a variety of new AI products coming. So we've got the smart glasses. We have more robotics products in the lineup. We have this AI pin as well. There is plenty that is still to come that is going to be pretty different.

Speaker 1:
[17:58] Well, hopefully, he can knock those out of the park and he's leading that with firm decisions and decisive attitude about how we're going to release this because as we know, hasn't been great with AI and Siri and any of these like...

Speaker 2:
[18:14] And actually, he has not been responsible for any of that, which is heartening. And one of the most major successes that Apple has had over the past decade, he did lead.

Speaker 1:
[18:24] Apple Silicon.

Speaker 2:
[18:25] And the transition to Apple Silicon has undeniably been an incredible achievement.

Speaker 1:
[18:29] And that's what I was going to say, like, the one thing that I see here that I'm like super impressed by is the Apple Silicon. That moving away from Intel and going into these chips has been one of the best things that Apple has ever done, in my opinion, just for the strength of the Mac and just how great these machines are. You can make a $499, $599, whatever it's priced at, Macbook Neo that runs incredibly well off of an iPhone chip that's based off of an M1. Could you imagine doing something like that with Intel where you're taking something that's comparable to that? Being like, here, you're gonna, I mean, yeah, so many years ago and how often did we like, okay, we need to move on from something that's this bad right now because it's so slow, it won't be able to handle it. And now Apple's pushing a Macbook Neo $599 based off of old architecture, but it's still gonna work well because of the software and hardware optimizations in the next few years. That's impressive.

Speaker 2:
[19:24] And of course, John Ternus has not personally designed the architecture of these chips, but when we talk about him leading the transition to Apple Silicon, what we need to look at is the way that that transition was so smooth. So we first got the developer kit with the A12Z chip in the Mac Mini and Rosetta 2, and then we got it in those initial three Macs, which was the MacBook Pro, the MacBook Air and the Mac Mini, which all have the same design as their predecessors. So it was very safe and it allowed those chips to shine. And we completed that transition very quickly. And it just was perfect. I mean, I feel like it was so well done. There was not a dud product in that transition at all.

Speaker 1:
[20:16] And I feel like while John Ternus was definitely the main factor in the way that that rolled out and how smooth and perfect it was, I feel like another John was very important to how that actually happened and worked. And that's of course, Johny Srouji, who is now going to take over John's position as the Chief Hardware Officer.

Speaker 2:
[20:42] And that's a major.

Speaker 1:
[20:43] And I wonder if that's why this has happened so quickly. I feel like he was, wasn't he threatening to leave?

Speaker 2:
[20:48] Those were the reports. And this is a huge role. So he is going to go to control effectively all Apple hardware, which includes very important aspects such as design, which is not something that he has been involved in before. But he is responsible for the architecture of Apple silicon. And when you think of how those chips now have neural accelerators built into every quarter, assist with AI tasks, we've got the neural engine, even the way that now the chips are designed to scale up to the M5 max. We've got the ultra chips over the past few years as well, media engines. These are so well considered, so efficient, really incredible pieces of technology. And he's done that. So if he can continue to do that and bring that kind of innovation to other aspects such as display technology and design, I think that bodes incredibly well. Because I think that for a long time, Apple didn't, after Johnny Ive left, we did not have anyone in that position. And for a while, Tim Cook was in that position. Tim Cook was responsible for Apple's designs, and Tim Cook's not a designer. I mean, that's why we've had the AirPods Max. I keep coming back to the AirPods Max, but as much as-

Speaker 1:
[22:10] Don't kill Tim for the AirPods Max. It's a valiant effort. I don't do that. They sound amazing.

Speaker 2:
[22:16] I blame Tim Cook for the AirPods Max because it was Tim Cook that sat down with executives and said, we need a pair of over-ear headphones within 12 months. Go and make them. And that's why we have that.

Speaker 1:
[22:27] Pretty impressive.

Speaker 2:
[22:28] Terrible canopy, terrible smart case, condensation issues.

Speaker 1:
[22:33] You can't win them all.

Speaker 2:
[22:34] I mean, I do love the headphones.

Speaker 1:
[22:35] I was gonna say, they sound amazing. They got the most important part right, aside from fit and comfort and all of that. But at least they sound good when you can wear them. I will say, let's take a quick minute to hear from today's sponsor and then we'll jump right back into everything. So lately, I've been going down a rabbit hole, just trying to rethink how I structure my content workflow, especially with YouTube scripts, SEO, and just keeping everything organized for long term, just not only for the main channel, but for the podcast as well. It's got to a point where I just wasn't looking for quick answers. I needed something that could actually think through problems with me. And that's when I started using Claude. And honestly, it's changed how I approached work. Instead of jumping between tools or settling for surface level ideas, I can actually go deeper, connect ideas, and build things out in a way that feels way more intentional. Claude is the AI for minds that don't stop at good enough. It's the collaborator that actually understands your entire workflow and thinks with you. Whether you're debugging code at midnight or strategizing your next business move, Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems that matter. For me, one of the biggest things that I have been using is deep research and organization. I've had it to pull together insights across a ton of different sources and turn what would have been taking me hours into something that I can actually act on in minutes. I've also been using it to build out structured systems for my content, like organizing those scripts and creating repeatable workflows, which has been absolutely huge. So if you're ready to tackle bigger problems, get started with Claude today at claude.ai/mac. That's claude.ai/mac. And check out Claude Pro, which includes access to all of the features mentioned in today's episode. Thanks Claude for sponsoring this episode. With all of this, it happened. It just, I know it's not as abrupt as we think. I'm sure this was a plan, but I feel like this got sped up a little bit. We can speculate all we want, but I don't really care. The fact of the matter is Tim Cook will be out as the main CEO of Apple that we all know. And he'll be doing other things, still heavily involved, but we're going to be seeing John Ternus from now until however long. How do you feel like his first year is going to go?

Speaker 2:
[24:45] I mean, there's a lot that needs to happen. I don't know that Tim Cook has left John Ternus in an amazing place because there's a lot of questions around quite a lot of different things. So obviously the biggest one is undoubtedly the next generation version of Siri, which won't have shipped by the time Tim Cook leaves.

Speaker 1:
[25:06] Not yet.

Speaker 2:
[25:07] Because we're expecting it to be announced again, I guess, at WWDC and then rollout with iOS 27 in September. So a huge amount rests on that. And really how much that can really deliver on the promises that we've already had made to us and how much it can stand up to the competition. And we've discussed this extensively, but this is so important. Then we've got other products like the foldable iPhone. I mean, we've discussed this in recent weeks that I'm not 100 percent sure about how successful that will be. There's no headset in active development. So what happens to the Vision Pro over the next few years? There's a lot of questions around that. A lot of these smart home products, I don't know how successful some of those will be. I mean, is an Apple doorbell going to be going to storm retail stores, people queuing around the block to buy a doorbell? I'm not sure about that. An AI pin, a meta Ray-Ban competitor that's only the same as meta Ray-Bans.

Speaker 1:
[26:18] But it's Apple branded.

Speaker 2:
[26:20] I'm not sure that there's a lot that... I'm sure some of those things will be incredibly successful. In fact, probably the smart glasses probably will be the best of them. But I mean, we could be sitting here in two years time saying, the foldable wasn't so successful, the iPhone Air 2 flopped and the iPhone Air is now dead and buried. Apple's AI features are still really far behind. The AI pin was a flop.

Speaker 1:
[26:49] I don't know.

Speaker 2:
[26:50] It does not sound enormously successful, whereas what I will say about Tim Cook is that under Tim Cook, the iPad really took off. We got the Apple Watch and we got AirPods. So in the first half of the Tim Cook Premiership, and then I guess the last major success was probably the launch of Apple TV and services. Then we have entered a shaky period with-

Speaker 1:
[27:14] That's a lot of successful products.

Speaker 2:
[27:16] Yeah, and then things got bumpy with Vision Pro.

Speaker 1:
[27:20] But even then, AirPods on its own, I don't remember the exact step, but I've seen it so many times where if that was a company, it would be in the top companies of the world. Just the AirPods sales alone. That's big.

Speaker 2:
[27:36] And what will that be for Ternus? I don't know. Maybe that will be there.

Speaker 1:
[27:39] I don't know if he can do anything like that.

Speaker 2:
[27:40] The smart glasses, potentially. I mean, the meta Ray-Bans sell now in the hundreds of millions. I believe they ship about 400 million a year now, which is that's a lot for a company that was never invested traditionally in hardware technology. They were a website, a software company, a social media company. That is an incredible achievement. And if Apple can ship three or four times that, I mean, that is a large business.

Speaker 1:
[28:13] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[28:13] And I think that could be very popular. And if Apple can start to innovate in AI, I think then we're cooking, really.

Speaker 1:
[28:24] Well, nah. See what you did there. We're not cooking.

Speaker 2:
[28:28] Well, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[28:29] Not cooking anymore. There's so many puns out there. I hate all of them, so we'll just move on. But I think John's going to have an interesting year because his first, you know, official event is going to be iPhone 18 and the new foldable iPhone. That's pretty significant. And then hopefully at that time, they're going to be announcing that new Siri will be available on these products, right? We would assume it would come out alongside iOS 27.

Speaker 2:
[28:54] Oh, it's got to.

Speaker 1:
[28:55] Has to. I mean, if it doesn't, that's already going to get in.

Speaker 2:
[28:58] In 26.4, then 26.5.

Speaker 1:
[29:01] Do you blame Tim for this still, if it doesn't come out? Or do you say, John, you had ample time between now and then?

Speaker 2:
[29:07] No, I still...

Speaker 1:
[29:08] Still blamed him.

Speaker 2:
[29:09] I mean, ultimately, I blame him, but I don't actually think it's personally his fault. I think it's his fault in terms of he's a CEO. He has to take the fall for the overall condition of the company and its standing. But really, there are clearly... There are institutional problems here as to why this arose and the direction that has been taken with many, many senior executives, not least John G. Andrea, certainly Craig Federichia at an earlier stage.

Speaker 1:
[29:37] That's the other one. How do you feel about Craig being passed up for CEO?

Speaker 2:
[29:41] I mean, I think that would probably not be very good if he had become CEO because as much as he's a... I think this is the problem is that people lean too much into personality.

Speaker 1:
[29:51] Yeah, he's fun and quirky. Let's get him.

Speaker 2:
[29:54] That is... Let's actually look at Apple software.

Speaker 1:
[29:56] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[29:58] I think that many people would agree that Apple software has been a little bit of a decline for quite a long time. I mean, we certainly see more bugs.

Speaker 1:
[30:07] Say from a performance, I still think there's a lot of great software innovative features. We have to give him credit for that.

Speaker 2:
[30:13] We do get great features, but I mean, it's been bumpy over the past 10 years or so, I would say, and even, you know, liquid glass is, it's a mixed bag.

Speaker 1:
[30:26] I still kind of, I kind of like it.

Speaker 2:
[30:28] I like it, but I don't know that it's been a runaway success.

Speaker 1:
[30:31] Sure.

Speaker 2:
[30:32] And AI is so important. And even when we look at other new software platforms, I mean, visionOS, is visionOS one of the main selling points of the Vision Pro that has made it a roaring success? No, I actually think it's pretty mediocre as an operating system. It certainly does not feel very fast to use. It's quite clunky. You know, the Apple Watch has had some major changes to the UI over the years. Have these really made it better? Just the smart stack dramatically changed the way in which you interact with the Apple Watch.

Speaker 1:
[31:10] No, but I just think that's because it's a tiny screen on your wrist.

Speaker 2:
[31:13] But even Mac OS, you know, does Mac OS feel like it's in a better place now with Tahoe than it did 10 years ago? I don't think so, actually.

Speaker 1:
[31:21] I don't know. Did we have AirDrop? When did AirDrop come out?

Speaker 2:
[31:26] I don't remember.

Speaker 1:
[31:27] I don't know if it was. It's got to be. We had to have it for 10 years, right?

Speaker 2:
[31:31] I honestly couldn't say.

Speaker 1:
[31:32] But I'm just thinking of like iPhone. Why am I forgetting the mirroring feature? What is the name for it?

Speaker 2:
[31:40] iPhone Mirroring.

Speaker 1:
[31:41] Okay, so I didn't forget it. iPhone Mirroring. There's tons of little features like that. Where I'm like, this is life changing. Side card for people that use it.

Speaker 2:
[31:50] These are fantastic features. There are a lot of good standalone features, but I just feel like overall quality of software. I mean, even when we look at like the iPadOS, the whole debate around multitasking and then stage manager, and now we've got this new multitasking system that's better, but is iPadOS really an amazing OS for the iPad? I mean, it's fine. I don't feel like Craig Federici has done an incredible job. Whereas, you look at other executives like Johny Srouji, in fact, where that does actually seem to be a pretty flawless record. And I have no criticisms of what is going on with Apple's hardware for... Really, across the product lines, I think Apple's hardware has probably never been better. And actually, other than the design and the weight, the Vision Pro's hardware is fantastic. The Mac has never been in such a good place. AirPods, the Apple Watch, certainly, I think the iPhone 17 Pro is an incredible device. And as much as the iPhone Air has not been a runaway success, the iPhone Air, in terms of design, is pretty incredible as well. So I think if you were to look at what's been more successful hardware or software for Apple over the last 10 years, I think it's easy to answer that question. It's hardware. So that is why I would have been concerned if it was Craig Federighi. I think that the fact that he was not chosen really says everything about the fact that Apple probably knows that too.

Speaker 1:
[33:24] Yeah, I agree. I still just think like we don't work for Apple, but Apple as a whole would be taken less seriously if he was the CEO and still doing all those wild antics that he does on those videos. I know it's a joke and sometimes it's fun. I do have fun watching those, but that can't be the personality shift that we get. Because it does embody the person that you're seeing the most, if that's what we're seeing the most, I feel like it gets taken less seriously.

Speaker 2:
[33:49] But also, I don't know, I don't want to sound so down on Craig Federico.

Speaker 1:
[33:52] I like him.

Speaker 2:
[33:53] I feel like I am tired of those jokes now.

Speaker 1:
[33:56] I am 1000 percent.

Speaker 2:
[33:57] I feel like it's overdone. It is.

Speaker 1:
[34:00] The hair.

Speaker 2:
[34:00] Dude, we get it. The sense of humor in Apple Keynotes when they were live was funnier because very often they were not scripted. Those Apple events were in-person events were never scripted ever. They were always given bullet points and speakers were told to inject their own personality, which is why we got those lines from Phil Schiller about, can't innovate anymore, my ass.

Speaker 1:
[34:22] Yeah. You know what? I am not blaming Craig either. I genuinely think that it happened. They had success and marketing saw this as a way.

Speaker 2:
[34:28] It started in those in-person events, which was good and it felt more natural.

Speaker 1:
[34:33] I think Craig is just a chill guy. Marketing told him to do this and he was probably like, and it is funny, but I don't know.

Speaker 2:
[34:38] Sometimes, we have had those intros where we have stand-ins for...

Speaker 1:
[34:43] I don't know.

Speaker 2:
[34:43] Do you remember even when they tried to do this stuff with Tim Cook, when the M1 iPad Pro was announced?

Speaker 1:
[34:48] The Mission Impossible stuff?

Speaker 2:
[34:49] Yeah. It is like Tim Cook breaking in to steal the iPad Pro. It is so cringe, dude. This is not who Tim Cook is. This is not compelling.

Speaker 1:
[34:58] No.

Speaker 2:
[34:58] I hated that. We wouldn't have seen Steve Jobs do that. Don't try and be something you are not. It is okay.

Speaker 1:
[35:05] Which is what I said to John earlier. Just be yourself. Don't try to be a mix. If you have influence because you have worked under that culture for so long, that is one thing. But don't try to do something that you are not comfortable doing because it is going to show and it is going to look bad. So, all right. I can't end on a negative note. We have got to find something positive. I am excited. I am excited.

Speaker 2:
[35:28] I am really excited because I think that Tim Cook, like I say, I think he had an incredibly successful sort of first maybe six to seven years.

Speaker 1:
[35:38] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[35:39] And I think that undoubtedly left Apple in a really good place as a company. I mean, its growth is undeniable. And that is an incredible achievement and has grown the company into something way bigger than Steve Jobs ever did and probably would have. So, that is a very good achievement. But I think that Tim Cook is, I think that his time is clearly over.

Speaker 1:
[36:10] Yeah. It's time. It's time to move on.

Speaker 2:
[36:11] And it has been time for a few years. And this is going to be a breath of fresh air. And I will be very excited to see the change of direction. And if the MacBook Neo is anything to go by, I am really excited for the future.

Speaker 1:
[36:24] Yep.

Speaker 2:
[36:24] Me too.

Speaker 1:
[36:25] And we would love to hear from you, of course. So, let us know in the comments down below. All the other usual aspects. Social media, podcast at macrumors.com, the email address. And yeah, let us know what you think about this huge breaking news. And we will catch everybody in the next episode.