transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] The Donnybrook Podcast is supported by Design Aire Heating & Cooling and viewers like you. Donnybrook is made possible by the support of the Etsy and Thomas Patterson Foundation and the members of 9PBS.

Speaker 2:
[00:39] Thank you so much for joining us for Donnybrook. Great to have you with us. And as usual, too many topics, too little time. So we're going to get into that in just a moment. But first, let's meet our panelists, starting with the media veteran herself, Wendy Wiese, Bill McClellan, one of our founders from The Post Dispatch, Joe Holleman, also from The Post and stltoday.com, and from the St. Louis American, the guy who's entering the Media Hall of Fame this week, Alvin Reid.

Speaker 3:
[01:09] Still hard to believe, let me tell you.

Speaker 2:
[01:10] No, not hard to believe. Long overdue.

Speaker 3:
[01:13] All right.

Speaker 2:
[01:13] Hey, and thanks to Marina Movshina, who is supplying the artwork on the mantle behind me. We have a rotating art exhibit here at 9PBS on the Donnybrook set. Every month, another local artist provides some great work. Hey, that's beautiful.

Speaker 3:
[01:28] Thank you.

Speaker 2:
[01:29] You can learn more at insta at marinamovshina. That's where you can contact her for more information about her great work. Bill, we're going to start with you because in Jefferson City, both the House and the Senate approved sending to the voters a measure that would eliminate the income tax in the state of Missouri, which is right now the highest level is 4.7%. The idea is to go down to zero and then transfer those taxing responsibilities to the sales tax. So it could be increasing the 4.225% sales tax or it could tax things that aren't taxed already like landscaping, funeral services, advertising, what else, dry cleaning, things like that.

Speaker 4:
[02:19] Air growth.

Speaker 2:
[02:21] I think they're going to eliminate or they're going to exempt agriculture products, farmers.

Speaker 5:
[02:28] Round them.

Speaker 2:
[02:29] And I think groceries will not be increased. But what do you think?

Speaker 5:
[02:33] I think it will pass. And the reason I think so is I'm very much against it. And I'm just kind of out of step with Missouri. And we happily coexist. But if I think it's a terrible idea, I think the voters of Missouri are going to say, this is what we should do. And I think that we will.

Speaker 3:
[02:52] Okay. Oh, I'm sorry.

Speaker 5:
[02:53] No, I was going to say, I think I'm right. And the rest of the world is wrong. But I think it will pass.

Speaker 3:
[02:59] Okay. Apparently, the realtors aren't down with this. And I guess they're saying that, well, we'll carve out a niche or something. But they've already stated that they're not with this. They don't think it's a good idea. St. Charles County, who just, you know, said like, oh, no, we're not eliminating their personal property tax. Quite frankly, I think St. Louis County, St. Charles County and Jackson County, and maybe throw in Cole County down by Columbia, that might be enough to defeat it right there in a heavy turnout election. But once you throw in like funeral parlors and like the beautician industry haircuts and get your hair done, that's formidable. I'm just telling you that that's enough of an alliance that could defeat this. And I think it will lose.

Speaker 6:
[03:45] Well, I'm a natural blonde. So, I mean, you all know that.

Speaker 3:
[03:48] I'm not laughing at it.

Speaker 6:
[03:49] That doesn't affect me. But I don't think it has a chance. I'm not very good at math, but this math doesn't math. And when you talk about that kind of a gap that has to be met with increasing either the use tax or the sales tax, if you can't make those two ends meet. Plus, I think we have such a history with the legislators in Jefferson City of, you know, we cast our vote and they find a way to, you know, basically erase our votes. So, and all these guard rails that they're talking about in terms of, you know, yeah, oh no, don't worry, don't worry about it. When the Missouri legislature or frankly any legislature tells its citizens, don't worry about this, we've got it, then I think you have to worry about it. I'm sorry.

Speaker 7:
[04:41] I'm going to walk the pure line on this one because I think it's two characteristics of Missourians and it kind of confuses me. One, we're conservative. So tax increases, eliminating taxes, lowering taxes, good thing. We're also conservative, so change is also something that we're not sure of. So I really think this is a coin flip and I won't be surprised. Either way it goes, I think it'll be close.

Speaker 2:
[05:06] I don't think it's going to happen.

Speaker 5:
[05:07] I think the ads in favor of it will be very effective about this growth and, this is what's holding us back and I think Alvin that it will pass.

Speaker 3:
[05:20] I think that here another way to talk about going roundabout way, I would just if I were against it, my commercials would say St. Louis and Kansas City are going to be the biggest winners if you pass this getting rid of the income tax. Then rural Missouri will say like, well, I'm against it, if Kansas City and St. Louis are going to be there.

Speaker 2:
[05:39] I think a lot of seniors vote and a lot of seniors don't have income anymore, right? I mean, they have Social Security or they have some other-

Speaker 6:
[05:47] Investments.

Speaker 2:
[05:48] Investments, but that would be capital gains, and the capital gains tax in Missouri was actually eliminated last year, which if you've got stock, it's a good time to sell your stock.

Speaker 3:
[05:57] Well, that's one reason there's a hole in the budget. I mean-

Speaker 2:
[06:00] Well, yeah.

Speaker 3:
[06:01] That led to this why we need money desperately now.

Speaker 2:
[06:05] But I'm saying if seniors don't have a lot of income, they're not going to be incentivized to increase their sales taxes if they're not going to get an income tax.

Speaker 3:
[06:14] That's exactly right.

Speaker 6:
[06:15] And this is Governor Keyhoe's baby. John Patterson's doing a lot of the heavy lifting, but this is Governor Keyhoe's baby.

Speaker 2:
[06:20] Well, what do you think about the announcement this week that that Armory Data Center proposal, Wendy, is a go? And apparently, there are a lot of restrictions being put on the developer who wants to put a $3 billion project at where the Armory is on 6440. And the data center itself would actually go into the old famous bar warehouse. $3 billion, Lewis Rice, a local law firm is one of the developers. So is a group called Contour out of Las Vegas. I don't know this organization. But the city is assuring folks that they'll minimize the electric needs, that they're going to regurgitate or recycle their water, so they won't be ruining the water supply. Overall, I just think that it's going to be a dead zone that's not going to track businesses or residents, so I don't like it in that location. But do you agree with the city that it's a good idea since it's going to generate $400 million in taxes over 10 years?

Speaker 6:
[07:22] I think if you read what everybody is saying, if you read between the lines, it's a lot of we will, we shall, the plan is absolutely to. I just don't think, as you have said before many times, that there's any way for it to cover all of the ground, that we are being led to believe at this moment that it covers. I said earlier today that we have 12 of these data centers in the St. Louis area. While I understand this is a new generation, I don't recall any magical pixie dust falling from the sky so far. So, I believe in this mayor. I do believe in this mayor. I believe that she is going to move heaven and earth to keep St. Louis on the map and as healthy as we can possibly be. So, I'm cautiously optimistic but surprised.

Speaker 3:
[08:21] I would even be happier with we will do something, even if it wasn't, but it's not even that. We are expected to and we will try. And in five years, we're going to try to be doing this green stuff and in this month, we're going to try. They're not going to do any of it. They're going to do zero of that. Unless it's mandated, contractually stated, it's probably not going to happen. In fact, I'm really convinced it's not going to happen. If the mayor wanted to do something to get me with it, she'd have one check in one hand for the city of St. Louis, already written and one check for the school district. And she said like, now as soon as I go into the bank and these checks clear, then go ahead with that data center. But until then, I'm not buying any of it.

Speaker 2:
[09:00] You know what kind of freaks me out, is that the city says, oh, this is going to be a lot of money for the city. But I was watching your program when I was on vacation in March, and Sarah said that the city's run a surplus for four straight years, and it hasn't been able to spend its cranky money, and it hasn't been able to spend its pandemic funds. So why do we need more money?

Speaker 3:
[09:21] I mean, you never turned out money.

Speaker 7:
[09:23] Did you just ask why do we need more money? Well, because of all the wonderful ideas we propose on this show, we need a whole lot of money to cover all the grand things that we think people ought to be doing. I mean, I guess my question...

Speaker 2:
[09:36] Water mains, for sure. I agree with...

Speaker 7:
[09:38] Yeah, there you go. Right there. I mean, and I think the thing is, is that first of all, that armory site, it's not like nobody's tried to do something there, and it hasn't worked. They had an event space there, and people's cars are getting broke into. We can always talk about police officers, but let's save that for yet another show. But so it's not like, oh, nobody ever tried anything there. They have, and they didn't work. So now they're going to try this data center. And I still, even though everybody loves to run past this, data center opposition to me is still a NIMBY issue. And I don't care what anybody wants to tell me. I'm not finding the folks from the city of St. Louis running out to Franklin County to protest it, or vice versa.

Speaker 2:
[10:21] But there's nothing wrong with NIMBY.

Speaker 7:
[10:23] As long as then nothing gets done, that's fine.

Speaker 2:
[10:25] But here's the thing, aren't there huge tracks of unused property in the city of St. Louis, like along the North Riverfront, where this could go and wouldn't be near any current project?

Speaker 3:
[10:37] I mean, that's true. I think there's hesitancy to put it on the north side, not for safety, just because, like, I don't think the ultimate plan by the city of St. Louis is to transform the north side. I think it's to try to keep the lights on. Yeah, and then slowly but steadily raise the north side.

Speaker 5:
[10:53] The teachers' union supports this, I mean, just because they think they're going to get the check that you're talking about.

Speaker 3:
[10:59] Right, but I mean, until that check is written, I don't think a check will be written.

Speaker 6:
[11:04] You're talking about organizations like Lewis Rice. These are not fly-by-night organizations. So when they talk...

Speaker 2:
[11:10] No, but Alvin's right. I mean, look at all the history where we were told the lottery, casino gaming, online gaming, we're all going to save the schools. In fact, we had to vote for those because they were going to help the school children.

Speaker 3:
[11:22] And then the formula gets changed, and then this happens, and then that happens. I just don't think, A, the guarantee that it's going to generate $40 million in tax over 10 years, based on what? I mean, that's...

Speaker 6:
[11:36] And we have historic droughts, right? I still can't figure out how they can make any guarantees about the water supply, and the release that the mayor's office sent out. It's very clear that they want the city residents to feel like they are in control of what is going to be happening at these data centers. Will the citizenry believe that?

Speaker 5:
[12:01] What would you rather just do nothing and not get the possible money, Wendy? I'm not...

Speaker 6:
[12:08] I'm on her side. I'm actually on her side.

Speaker 5:
[12:11] Well, I don't even know what side I'm on.

Speaker 6:
[12:12] Yeah, I feel like she is risk... She's taking... This is a gamble. This is a huge political risk for her.

Speaker 3:
[12:20] It could be the last thing she does.

Speaker 7:
[12:22] But here's the gamble. The gamble is, is will it produce $40 million? I can tell you how much that warehouse is producing now, nothing. Well, okay. Well, then, I mean, so if you're saying, well, I'd rather do nothing and get zero money, then maybe get $20 million, $30 million for schools and city operations.

Speaker 2:
[12:41] Let me ask you about the mayor who's in London this week. Before she left, she was speaking in the state of the city address and protesters interrupted her for 20 minutes and then they were hauled away, but she did admit that she's had some problems responding to the May 16th, 2025 tornado that hit North St. Louis, that we haven't made the progress there that we wanted. The other thing is she went to London on the trip that we talked about on last week's show, and a photo of her and Bob Clark, who is kind of maybe one of the most prominent spokespeople in favor of data centers. There's a photo of the two of them having lunch together. So North St. Louis is having problems, she's dining with a billionaire. Is that photo gonna haunt her in the future? You write a political column, what do you think?

Speaker 7:
[13:33] No, I don't think it'll haunt her. I mean, future, near future? Will people talk about it a couple of weeks?

Speaker 2:
[13:38] Campaign ads?

Speaker 7:
[13:40] Oh, saying what? That you had lunch in London with a developer who was one of your big supporters?

Speaker 2:
[13:46] Well, nothing's going on in North St. Louis.

Speaker 5:
[13:49] Not the two of them, which wouldn't bother me, but this was just a big conference.

Speaker 6:
[13:54] Right, you make it sound like they were sharing a romantic bottle of Chianti.

Speaker 2:
[13:58] No, I'm not talking about the Patriots Coke.

Speaker 3:
[14:00] I was gonna say, you stole my line.

Speaker 7:
[14:04] You can make it be whatever you'd like to make it be.

Speaker 2:
[14:07] I'm not making it anything. I'm asking you a question.

Speaker 7:
[14:09] I said no.

Speaker 6:
[14:12] You may as well say, inquiring minds when it out.

Speaker 3:
[14:15] Will it have a long-term impact? No, but Bob Clark made it clear that he wanted Kara Spencer to be the mayor, and Bob Clark has made it clear that he's in favor of data centers, and Bob Clark also made it clear that he really doesn't want to stand for anybody or anything getting in the way of his plans, which benefit first Bob Clark. So now you're in London on the day that this is announced, and you're sitting there with Bob Clark. Okay, you know, release from the mayor that several of us got to like, you know, they didn't, it's a total coincidence. It's like, maybe it was, but it's a bad look, and I'm not necessarily buying it.

Speaker 6:
[14:48] Yes, you don't think it's a bad look, or you do think it's a bad look.

Speaker 3:
[14:52] I do think it's a bad look.

Speaker 6:
[14:52] Okay, see, I don't think it's a bad look. They didn't come up with a seating chart. I mean, this was an efficient... Well, this was an efficient... Because they're both from the St. Louis area.

Speaker 3:
[15:02] And those two happen to be just sat next to each other.

Speaker 7:
[15:05] If you have any proof that that's not true...

Speaker 3:
[15:08] I'm not saying...

Speaker 7:
[15:08] Okay, then bring it forward. Okay, come on, come on.

Speaker 3:
[15:12] Hold it, I'm saying I'm not buying it.

Speaker 6:
[15:15] Okay, that's all.

Speaker 3:
[15:15] That's fine, that's fine.

Speaker 6:
[15:17] You have been right more often than you're wrong.

Speaker 2:
[15:19] I think we have to admit that in certain areas, specifically the United States of America, data centers are now toxic. And the mayor is going to be in a whole host of trouble by aligning herself with maybe the most prominent supporter of them. We just saw in Festus where all the incumbents were voted out, right? Even those who voted for it.

Speaker 7:
[15:40] And I'm talking to people in Ferguson about the Emerson Valley, who live in Ferguson. And they are, go figure, logical about it. They said, well, I have some concerns, but I'd hate to see Ferguson pass on the benefit for that Emerson thing. So this idea that because some people, look, you can take a photograph, you can take a protest, and you can make it sound like anything you want. And in this day and age, that outrage lasts 48 hours.

Speaker 2:
[16:06] The funny thing about the Ferguson data center is on the edge of town, right? Where Emerson was, it's not in.

Speaker 3:
[16:13] Okay.

Speaker 5:
[16:14] All right.

Speaker 3:
[16:14] The picture is one thing. But if Midtown smells like diesel fuel, three months before the election, two and a half years from now.

Speaker 6:
[16:21] Midtown has had all sorts of smells.

Speaker 3:
[16:22] Well, I'm just saying that that's one of those things that say like, okay, now if it does follow the air or water goes up in price more than it's already going to go up in price or things like that, that's what would come back and actually impact the mayor.

Speaker 5:
[16:38] It's a gamble for sure. If electric rates go up, this is not a sure thing being pro-business.

Speaker 6:
[16:45] Tumbleweeds in the downtown area are even more toxic.

Speaker 3:
[16:49] Let me add this real quick. For the number of people, and I'll point my finger at the North Side. For the number of people who actually voted in the last mayoral election, if I was Karen Spencer, I wouldn't worry about it. Because apparently people on the North Side didn't care enough to get out and vote in a race that involved Tasha Jones. So I don't think they're going to be so fired up to get out and vote because a data center is in midtown. So I don't think that will hurt her.

Speaker 2:
[17:12] Alvin, let me ask you about the measure in front of the General Assembly in Jeff City, which would require English proficiency for truck drivers, people who operate vehicles with more than eight passengers, who have their CDL. This I think would be for people with big equipment, maybe semi-trucks, some buses, vans, that sort of thing. Do you, Texas doesn't have this. Missouri hadn't considered it, I don't think, until recently. Do you see any problems that would say, hey, we need to make sure we have some sort of English test for our truck drivers?

Speaker 3:
[17:49] Well, I think to get your CDL, I think it's, wherever you get it, it's valid in whatever state you drive through. So I mean, if it was a problem, I'm sure somebody would just go to Illinois and get it, or go to Kansas and get it. It's odd only then that the truck driving is one thing. For some reason, I think if you're going to drive a school bus, I think you should be proficient because I think communication is very, very important if you're transporting children. Now, how do you separate the two? I don't know, but that's what my thought is.

Speaker 5:
[18:18] You were talking about proficiency, it's not fluency. I mean, I don't have a problem saying that people who are driving heavy equipment should be able to read street signs, or if there's an emergency and there's a temporary sign up about detours, that they should be able to understand that or talk to police officers. Steve Butts, who was at Donnybash, a state senator representative, Democrat, he took that attitude too. He said, I don't have a problem with it.

Speaker 7:
[18:50] I don't understand why it's an issue.

Speaker 6:
[18:52] I don't either.

Speaker 7:
[18:53] For somebody operating a semi-tractor trailer on the interstate highways, to have a proficiency in understanding English. I don't see why that's a terrible problem.

Speaker 2:
[19:04] I don't think it's been a problem. If Texas, which is on the Mexican border, presumably has many drivers from south of the border, doesn't seem to have a problem with it, and it hasn't presented itself as a big problem that I know of, and some people function very well, like Jacques Desmer, who was a coach of the blues, was illiterate, and he told everybody after he left his job, you know what, I can't read.

Speaker 5:
[19:31] But Charlie, in 10 years, if they show this show again, they'll all be these automatic vehicles driving themselves.

Speaker 2:
[19:40] Well, that's true, too.

Speaker 5:
[19:41] That's a good point. What's proficiency got to do with anything?

Speaker 2:
[19:44] I think it's just Trump's America going after immigrants, and I kind of resent it.

Speaker 3:
[19:50] I think that's the basis of it. But I'm thinking that, okay, yes, is that the root where this is coming from? Yes. But at the same time, I could see if I had come up with this idea, you wouldn't say it was a Trump idea. But the root of it is, yes, the root of it is that.

Speaker 6:
[20:10] But you think that if Joe or I, if we go to France and we want to CDL, then that's not a problem if we're not both.

Speaker 2:
[20:18] If you want to work in France, you have to, if you want to live there, you have to pass the DELF, something language fluency.

Speaker 7:
[20:25] Is that wrong?

Speaker 2:
[20:26] A B1 and then a B2 if you want to work there.

Speaker 7:
[20:28] Is that wrong?

Speaker 2:
[20:29] They gave an exemption to George Clooney.

Speaker 7:
[20:32] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[20:33] I don't know why.

Speaker 7:
[20:34] If none of us are George Clooney, is that wrong? What France does?

Speaker 2:
[20:37] Well, I'm not in France.

Speaker 7:
[20:39] No, come on, Charlie.

Speaker 2:
[20:40] You're dodging the question. I think you can live a good life in France and not speak the language because, you know what? You now have Google Translate. You pull out your phone and you say, in whatever language, what's the problem here? And the person says something and I will say.

Speaker 5:
[20:58] I don't think you need to speak English to live here, but I think driving a heavy vehicle.

Speaker 6:
[21:04] Thank you, Bill.

Speaker 7:
[21:05] I'm not saying you got to start quoting sonnets from Shakespeare, Charlie. But what is so offensive about when you move to a country and adopt this new country to try to at least learn a bit of their language. Why is that an insult?

Speaker 2:
[21:16] Because they do, and there's not an issue. And I think that the little guy from south of the border is getting trampled on right now by the federal government, going to school.

Speaker 3:
[21:26] I agree.

Speaker 2:
[21:27] I mean, that's not the question.

Speaker 7:
[21:29] That's not the question, Charlie. That's not the question.

Speaker 3:
[21:32] By the way, I think all five of us are proficient in Spanish without even trying. I bet you we're proficient in Spanish. In other words, if we were going to...

Speaker 5:
[21:42] I don't think so, Alvin.

Speaker 3:
[21:43] Wait a minute. Hold it. To drive a car across Mexico? I think we can figure the signs out.

Speaker 2:
[21:49] That's right. I mean, good point, Alvin. Let's move on.

Speaker 7:
[21:53] But if you're in Mexico and you're driving a busload of kids or a tractor trailer full of diesel fuel, that's a different thing.

Speaker 3:
[22:00] All right.

Speaker 2:
[22:00] Good. Now, final topic, I think, for this segment ever. Tell me how much time we have before the end of the show. Okay, we've got time for this one. Wendy Wiese, there was a measure to increase the number of food trucks in the city of St. Louis, but it stalled.

Speaker 3:
[22:18] Yes, light of the night.

Speaker 6:
[22:21] I'm ready to haul hazardous material.

Speaker 3:
[22:25] Mexico.

Speaker 2:
[22:27] It's halted because the Cardinals are concerned that there will be food trucks near Ball Park Village, and they want to control the scene there. They, in fact, tragically, a food truck operator was shot and killed this week in Ferguson.

Speaker 6:
[22:42] Horrible.

Speaker 2:
[22:43] So they may not want the competition. They may not want some sort of introduction to their area that they can't control. Are they in the right or the wrong?

Speaker 6:
[22:55] I think they're in the wrong. And I know Rashid Aldridge is...

Speaker 2:
[23:00] He's the alderman down there.

Speaker 6:
[23:01] Right. He plays a part in this unfolding novella. But I just feel like these food trucks really are hanging on by a thread. They have sort of invested in the area. You know, it's an enormous amount of goodwill, I think, on their part. They have believed, you know, when we've said, hey, yeah, come down and help us, you know, boost up our nightlife and all this kind of stuff. But for the Cardinals, to whom every, I mean, they have had some rough times lately, you know, from a club standpoint, but it's pretty much been Christmas Eve for as long as I've been alive for that baseball team, okay? It's been, it's been just a lot of largesse on the part of this community. So to, you know, tell these little food, these commercial food truck, no, we can't control you. So we want you on, we want you on Olive Street.

Speaker 3:
[23:58] This is the same ballpark village that drove Mike Shand is out of business and some other restaurants down there. So, you know, I'm kind of like, but no, these food trucks a lot.

Speaker 7:
[24:07] Well, and I have a solution. The Board of Aldermen stand up and tell the brewery that they're going to pass this no matter what. And let's see how that goes.

Speaker 3:
[24:16] You don't mean the brewery?

Speaker 7:
[24:17] Well, the ballpark village, the Cardinals. I mean, I still got them owned by the cardinals. Stand up to them, tell them. You got Aldermen there, they can pass this.

Speaker 5:
[24:28] You know, I've argued these food trucks, they interfere with brick and mortar restaurants, but as long as everybody says, that's fine, I don't see why we should make an exception for ballpark village.

Speaker 6:
[24:41] But I didn't understand the reluctance on the part of, why would Soulard be upset about the presence of the food trucks?

Speaker 3:
[24:49] Well, I guess you could park one down there in the middle of like Russell and Geyer or whatever.

Speaker 2:
[24:54] It's competition.

Speaker 3:
[24:55] I don't have a problem with it, I'm just trying to answer.

Speaker 2:
[24:57] My daughter says that they have them outside Citi Field for the Mets, and inside Yankee Stadium for the Yankees.

Speaker 3:
[25:02] You can also buy peanuts, hot dogs, hamburgers right outside of the stadium. Now, I don't know if the Cardinals get a cut of that or whatever.

Speaker 7:
[25:08] There's not a problem. The Aldermen just go ahead and pass the bill.

Speaker 2:
[25:11] But here's the thing. They may not like people they can't control operating within the boundaries of their business, and I can understand that in downtown St. Louis, because there have been problems with some of these food carts on Washington Avenue.

Speaker 7:
[25:24] I think there's arguments. I guess what I'm saying is that the people who want these food trucks, the problem is not the ball team. The Alderman can pass it, so let them go ahead.

Speaker 2:
[25:35] So your comments I think will be the last ones for this segment. Let's go to the mailbag and see what folks had to say about last week's show. This is in response to your continuing discussions on data centers. One point I'd like to make, has anyone given any consideration as to what happens 20 years down the road when the technology has changed and the masters of the universe don't need these giant data centers? One thing we know for certain is that technology will always be changing. Steve Schrag, St. Louis County. Thank you, sir. We also heard from Tim Nagy of Wildwood, Great Donny Bash, regarding location of county offices. It's surprising the panel thinks that Northwest Plaza isn't central enough. The two sites are only four miles apart, both on Lindbergh. I can drive that in a lot less time than the panelists took to complain about it. Thank you. Larry Kleinkemper wrote from South County, Joe and Bill so reminded me of Archie Bunker and his liberal son-in-law. When discussing police entering public schools, I had to laugh. Never a bad thing to be compared to Carol O'Connor and Rob Reiner, right? Hey, you can write us care of 9PBS 63108. Don't forget those emails, Donnybrook at 9pbs.org. On social media, it's hashtag DonnybrookSTL. Call the 9-line 314-512-9094, and call or listen to your favorite podcast. Donnybrook, anywhere you are. We have a new channel on YouTube. It's the Donnybrook channel, and you need to subscribe to it. See that QR code, scan it, sign up. Don't miss a single episode. And for six or so weeks, we'll be in the traditional place as well as in the new location. Well, as it turns out, we're not going to have a Gospel Hall of Fame and Museum on King's Highway.

Speaker 3:
[27:22] Why?

Speaker 2:
[27:23] Well, we'll discuss that on Last Call. We hope you join us. Congratulations to Alvin Reid, who this week is going into the Media Hall of Fame. Congratulations, Alvin.

Speaker 3:
[27:31] Thank you.

Speaker 2:
[27:32] And we'll see you and everybody else next week.

Speaker 1:
[27:36] Donnybrook is made possible by the support of the Betsy and Thomas Pedersen Foundation and the members of 9PBS.

Speaker 4:
[27:57] Support for Donnybrook, Last Call, is provided in part by Design Aire Heating & Cooling.

Speaker 2:
[28:07] Thank you for joining us for Last Call. We're gonna kick it off with you, Joe Holleman. Keisha Scarlett, former superintendent for St. Louis Public Schools, announced that she's filing suit against the schools for wrongful dismissal. She says, among other things, that when she was let go, she wasn't allowed to appeal, she didn't have access to her e-mails, which could have proved her case. She also said that as a whistleblower, she had a lot of dirt on the district, which she wasn't allowed to share, and she suspects that that's the reason that she was fired. Hmm, if she didn't have access to her e-mails and if she wasn't allowed to appeal, that does seem like something that she was wrong.

Speaker 7:
[28:49] All I know is I'm not surprised that she filed suit. That's what you do these days when you get let go of a job. And most of the time, and maybe Miss Scarlett wants to fight this thing right down to the ground. I hope so. I really hope so. But basically it seems to me, and not just Miss Scarlett, but other people, they're just looking for a settlement. How much does the district want to pay me to go away? And especially when you start going, I've got some dirt e-mails on here that if these get out, okay, how much of a check do you want? It's like people who get sued for accidents and everything. It used to be what was called a fetch bill in front of the legislature, where you put in a bill and then people would slip you money to take that bill back out because they didn't want it. And that's what a lot of lawsuits are these days. And you get a settlement and everybody goes away.

Speaker 5:
[29:44] I thought that Dr. Scarlett did a terrible job and she brought in all her buddy hires and a 16 day trip to Japan and I thought she did an awful job. But if it goes to trial, you have to remember that she was hired because she interviews well. You know, she talked to the focus group, the search group, and they liked her. So you're going to be dealing with a woman who is smart and can explain herself and she might be a very good witness. I mean, if I were a lawyer for the city, I'd be concerned.

Speaker 3:
[30:25] I wouldn't. In fact, A, I can't be on the jury because I don't live in the city of St. Louis. I think that's where it was filed because I'd love to be on that jury. Okay. And I'd like to be the jury foreman. And two, I ain't been to nobody's law school. I want to take the case for SLPS. I would french fry her and Dr. Borasaw in her lawsuit. I could win that case. You do not settle with them. I mean, call in the most expensive attorneys in the world.

Speaker 6:
[30:53] Bring them back from the dead.

Speaker 3:
[30:55] Bring them all back. Johnny Cochran, F. Lee Bailey, all of them. Because this is nonsense. And I would laugh in their face in the courtroom. The judge would probably say, Mr. Reid, you shouldn't be laughing at the defendants or the plaintiffs. It's all I can do, Your Honor.

Speaker 6:
[31:10] It makes it, most of all, after the fury that you feel when you see that this woman had the nerve. I wanted to use another word, the gumption to file a lawsuit against the city. They're part of this educational-industrial complex, where it's almost like they go out, they know when a school district is in crisis, so they pack up their roadshow and they come in, and they give you all the stats, they dazzle you with stats and all of this kind of thing, but they do deliver really hefty credit card bills, but they can't deliver any kind of improvement. And that is that sickening because the kids are still-

Speaker 5:
[31:58] Well, you know, it's interesting too that Dr. Scarlett has sued Matt Davis, who was, you know, on the board, because he and Tony Cousins were her big allies, you know, attacking people who attacked her, and that she's turned on Davis and said that he'd be-

Speaker 6:
[32:18] Davis said at the end that she was so mistreated.

Speaker 3:
[32:21] Oh yeah, I don't know where to come from. But here's the thing, they both got sent packing with a briefcase full of money. It wasn't like they just said like get out and buy. We're not giving you a dime.

Speaker 7:
[32:31] They got paid.

Speaker 5:
[32:32] Or she had got a lot of money.

Speaker 7:
[32:33] You go get an attorney and you see if you can get another pack of money. I mean, I'm not saying it's right at all.

Speaker 2:
[32:42] Speaking of money, Alvin, I want to ask you, I think we're up to 15 or 16, the number of St. Louisans who are either under indictment or already convicted for stealing federal pandemic money. One of the latest ones is Monica Butler, Dr. Monica Butler, who is going to put in a gospel hall of fame on King's Highway. Well, apparently that's not going to happen. But now look at the, we just lost the Blues Hall of Fame. We lost the Dog Museum some time ago. We lost the Photography Hall of Fame like three years ago. The Bowling Hall of Fame, the Steel Guitar Hall of Fame. I guess we're just not very good when it comes to Hall of Fame.

Speaker 3:
[33:18] Well, this is a totally different animal. And in the words of the Temptations, dealing in dirt and stealing in the name of the Lord. This is worse than all of them. Now, you might have had a not-for-profit. Somebody just got sentenced for Elmo's Love Lounge where Bill and I used to hang out back in the day. But this is different. And trust me, there are a lot of people out there that do a lot of bad things. They don't involve a church. They don't involve a gospel or anything like that. This is hideous. I hope she does time. And there are a lot of people out there that already said like, I don't know about this gospel hall of fame. It seems like it's a lot of bluster and absolutely nothing's getting done. Well, yeah, there was some thieving going on too, allegedly.

Speaker 5:
[33:59] She got a lot of love, Elmo, from the state.

Speaker 2:
[34:03] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[34:04] The press liked her.

Speaker 2:
[34:07] The press did like her, but not the St. Louis American.

Speaker 3:
[34:11] I was just kind of cautious of that whole thing. I really was. I had no idea there was true dishonesty going on, but it just didn't seem like it was going anywhere.

Speaker 2:
[34:23] Bill, let me ask you about a report that came out from Ness Sandoval, the demographer from St. Louis University. He points out that there's a declining birth rate in this country, but the two regions that are tied for worst are Virginia Beach, Virginia and St. Louis, Missouri. We have the greatest percentage decline in births in the first four years of this decade. It seems to me that a lot of people of reproductive age are moving out of town and going to places like Denver or Nashville, and maybe that's why we're losing.

Speaker 5:
[34:59] Or my son, Austin, he's got three kids now. Yeah, I don't know the demographic underpinnings of any of this, but it is interesting that we're talking about these data centers because we need more money for schools when in fact, the schools are shuttering, they're closing, and we're trying to figure out what schools to close, and we're having fewer and fewer children.

Speaker 7:
[35:27] I think it's certainly something that, as Professor Sandoval points out, something to keep an eye on. I do think we have to mitigate it at least a bit to say that in the nation, the birth rate is declining. So I mean, yes, it's worse in St. Louis and Virginia Beach, but there's no place where they're saying, oh, Austin, they're having kids like crazy down there. The birth rate is down, and I think there's a variety of reasons for that.

Speaker 2:
[35:51] Such as?

Speaker 7:
[35:52] Well, better contraceptives and more access to them. People simply deciding, because whether it's political unrest or what have you, having two careers that they're not having children, or maybe they're having one child and one child only, and it's happening all across the United States.

Speaker 5:
[36:11] There's not big families like you say. Sure. A generation ago, people would have seven, eight kids.

Speaker 7:
[36:17] I remember when it was my sister and I, we were like, you only two kids? Now, two kids, maybe three is like, whoa, you got a big family. So I think there's a lot of reasons that are bringing it down all across the country. St. Louis does seem to be experiencing it a little more strongly than other places.

Speaker 6:
[36:37] Please believe me when I say this, I'm not framing this in a moral or religious framework. I'm saying purely mathematically. Since we legalized abortion, if you've had 60 million, 70 million abortions and their descendants, just basic math, that is not a medical question, that is not a philosophical, religious, spiritual, any kind of question, just basic math, I think we would be remiss if we did not at least put that into the pot of items that we are carrying.

Speaker 3:
[37:12] I would say like, all right, I'm not arguing with you at all. I will say that in Kirkwood and around us, the families that aren't having the kids like they used to are Catholic families.

Speaker 6:
[37:22] Oh, there's no doubt. That's what he was just saying.

Speaker 3:
[37:25] That's where the kid population has plummeted around where I live.

Speaker 6:
[37:30] Well, and you're talking about children and children, young people of reproductive age. I thought Virginia was for lovers.

Speaker 3:
[37:36] Pretty much. Well, you could have kids when you're 38 and 40. I did it. Well, I didn't have them.

Speaker 2:
[37:42] We'll pick up from there next week.

Speaker 3:
[37:45] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[37:46] Thank you so much for joining us, and don't forget to subscribe to the Donnybrook YouTube channel.

Speaker 5:
[37:54] That was good, Wendy.