transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] Hey, everybody, it's Tim Miller from The Bulwark. Earlier this week, I was over on the Piers Morgan show, and you may have seen the clip going around of me talking about how I was not going to call Pastor Doug Wilson pastor, and I'm just going to call him Doug, because he doesn't follow even remotely anything resembling the teachings of Jesus Christ, and he is just a right-wing hack provocateur and political actor, and there's space for those people in the world, but they're not pastors. And so we discussed the merits of Doug Wilson's worldview. Wajhat Ali and myself took turns taking some wax at that. We also talked about a bunch of other stuff, and I mean, takeaway from this is just the case for this war in Iran is so weak that the Piers Morgan show, which is trying to get both sides on to do a food fight, it's hard to even find people to defend the war. And to me, that was the most telling part of it. So anyway, Doug's arguments were so weak that initially I thought, why even subject you guys to this on the YouTube page? But after popular review, the people wanted it. Sometimes the people like just giving an asshole a swirly, even if it's not highbrow debate content. And so we've listened, we've learned, and so we're going to provide you some extended clips so you can see a little bit more of Doug and I. Stick around, me and the Piers Morgan show. Subscribe to the feed, by the way. We need to get up to 2 million. We need to get to 2 million. Let's go. Subscribe to the feed. See you later.

Speaker 2:
[01:45] OK, well, Tim Miller, you're a Catholic, I believe. Is that right?

Speaker 1:
[01:49] Well, I'm a cradle Catholic, Piers. We're all on a journey together, you know.

Speaker 2:
[01:58] No, I was just curious what you feel about the row between the Pope and the president. You know, has what the Pope been saying crossed a line in terms of political commentary, or is he just being consistent to what most Popes do, which is preach about peace and not war?

Speaker 1:
[02:17] Yeah, I think that the people that think that the Pope has crossed a line have no memory or didn't start paying attention to the news or to the Pope before Donald Trump was around. Pope Leo's comments are in line with what we've heard from Popes going all the way back to Pope John Paul. And Pope John Paul II opposed both Iraq wars, did so vocally. And I don't recall George HW. Bush or George W. Bush getting into a fight with the Pope. Multiple Popes have criticized Democratic leaders for their stances on abortion and other issues. I don't remember Joe Biden or Nancy Pelosi telling the Pope to shut his pie hole when he weighed in on the Catholic teaching on abortion. Donald Trump wants to make everything about himself. He wants to pick this fight because that's the only thing he knows how to do is bully people and pick fights. So it's kind of what we'd expect for Donald Trump. It's a little confusing for JD. Vance, who converted to Catholicism two seconds ago and then decided to write a book about his conversion, to now come out and say that the Pope needs to be careful when he speaks about theology, as if JD. Vance, who's been a Catholic for two minutes, knows more about Catholic doctrine and just war theory than the Pope. I think probably he would benefit from listening to the Pope. And yeah, I just I don't know who is really buying that from him, from the vice president. Like why, you know, it's not as if he comments about how Donald Trump should be careful with his language ever. JD. Vance never criticizes Donald Trump. But now all of a sudden, he simultaneously went through this conversion to MAGA hood, where he's a Donald Trump acolyte and he went through a conversion to Catholicism at the same time. It's just it's very phony and it's very fake. And I don't think it's helping either of them politically.

Speaker 3:
[04:09] All the all the contradictory statements coming out of Iran really just reveal nothing more than the fact that nobody knows who's in charge there.

Speaker 2:
[04:19] Oh, okay. Let me bring Tim Miller in. Tim, I mean, there's a lot of contradictory statements coming out of everywhere. And I'm all for the fog of war and dealing with the enemy in a way that they may understand and look, nobody pretends Donald Trump is a conventional politician or president. He's always used the power of incendiary rhetoric to get what he wants and sometimes he's been successful at doing it. So, you know, maybe there is method to the madness. Maybe this is the language the Iranians will understand and maybe in six months time we'll look at this as a piece of strategic genius. But I've got to say right now, I'm not feeling that. I'm feeling more that Donald Trump has got sucked into something. I mean, as we came on air with this show today, he's put out a direct denunciation of the increasingly popular claim that he got bullied into this or talked into it, persuaded into it by the Israelis. He said, Israel never took me into the war with Iran. The results of October the 7th added to my lifelong opinion that Iran can never have a nuclear weapon. Did. I watch and read the fake news, pundits and polls and disbelief. 90 percent of what they say are lies and made up stories, blah, blah, blah. But the mere fact he's felt compelled to say that, when we all read a big New York Times piece last week, which detailed in really quite extraordinary detail how Benjamin Netanyahu sat in the Situation Room at the White House, laying out a sequence of events, if America joined this and attacked and took out the Ayatollah and the top people, then you would see the IRGC slowly lose power. You'd see the people rise up and take it over. The straight up or most would be in irrelevance and so on. Only the first bits happened, and that's the cold hard reality. And I'm of the view that Donald Trump has got into something. He wants to get out, but he is not sure how to do that where it doesn't look like an abject failure.

Speaker 3:
[06:15] The cold hard reality is that it's been six weeks.

Speaker 1:
[06:20] Yeah, well, and things have gotten worse in six weeks, Pastor.

Speaker 2:
[06:23] It was actually a question for Tim. Sorry, Pastor. We'll come back to you, Pastor.

Speaker 3:
[06:26] Worse, worse, worse.

Speaker 2:
[06:27] It ran. I mean, look, we were told it was going to be over in two to three weeks, two to three weeks ago, and it's not. So, Tim.

Speaker 3:
[06:36] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[06:37] Look, the Trump bleat about how Israel didn't push him into this is definitely a lady of the doth protest too much moment. The fact that he had to say that, I just think that we can all see reality with our eyes. This is not to say that there is some secret cabal of Jews that are puppet mastering and manipulating Trump. It's not to say that. It's just to say that BB came into our situation room and made the case to him for this war. And then a couple of weeks later, they got into the war. Like, that's just what happened. I don't think that there's anyone out there who thinks that if Israel did not want this war, wasn't agitating for it, that Trump was going to go at it alone and do it on his own. There's just no reason to think that that would have happened. And a big part of why we shouldn't think that would happen is just listening to Donald Trump and JD Vance's own words, where they said that they weren't going to do this up until they changed their mind. So look, I just think that the quote unquote pastor we've got over here saying that we're only six weeks into this, Ikea is very incoherent in his defense of this. And I think it's probably a big challenge for you, Piers, to get people onto the show to defend this war, because Trump is incoherent talking about it. Any defender of this war sounds incoherent, because we haven't got anything. There's been no progress made, and there was no case made for it. And if you just look at it, if you go back seven weeks, and you just said to the American people, it's like, hey, here's what things are gonna look like in seven weeks from now. The Strait of Hormuz will have been closed. Energy prices are higher for everybody. Critical energy infrastructure in Arab states are taken offline. The UAE is coming to us to ask us for a loan now. Over a dozen Americans are dead. We've unknown how many Americans are wounded, because they're not being honest with us. Iranian citizens have been killed, including school children that we accidentally killed. We've depleted our military material. So that is the state of affairs. And in exchange for that, what have we gotten? We've moved from one Khamenei to another. The IRGC is in more control, and Iran has lost some ships, and they've lost some of their missile capabilities. Like, that's it. Like, that's all we've gotten out of this. Who would make that deal? Like, if you made that pitch to people eight weeks ago, 3% of the American public would have been for that. You know, the really strong Israel hawks maybe would have been for that, but no one else.

Speaker 2:
[08:54] Well, the interesting thing, the interesting thing...

Speaker 3:
[08:56] So, then last thing, I've been a quote unquote pastor for just shy of 50 years, and so I'd like to know how much longer I have to go before I become a real pastor.

Speaker 1:
[09:08] Well, you have to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, probably. If you want to be a real pastor, I mean, you can call yourself whatever you want, Doug. I'm just going to call you Doug. I'm kind of tired of you being called pastor, but you know...

Speaker 2:
[09:19] But I think we can afford him.

Speaker 1:
[09:20] You're out there.

Speaker 2:
[09:21] We can afford him.

Speaker 1:
[09:22] You hate everybody. You attack black people, gay people, immigrants. All you do is spread hate. Your book that you've got behind there is talking about how much you love bad words. I look, if you want to teach this kind of fake Christianity, that's fine. Have you read it? You know, if you want... No, I've not read your book. Very happy to have not read your book. But if you want to do this kind of vice signaling Christianity, we're gonna do Christian vice.

Speaker 3:
[09:48] Probably stop commenting on what it's about.

Speaker 1:
[09:50] Well, I've seen enough of your material on social media that it doesn't really require any more. I mean, it's not like there's a ton of deep thought that's going behind it that requires further study.

Speaker 3:
[10:05] As the show started out, I thought we were supposed to refrain from attacking religious leaders.

Speaker 1:
[10:13] I have no problem attacking the Pope. You attacked the Pope.

Speaker 4:
[10:16] Well, I have no problem. Listen, real quick, pastor. I have no problem attacking wolves and sheep's clothing. I have no problem attacking a man who wrote that American slavery was mutually harmonious between the slave master and the slave. That's you. I have no problem attacking a man who proudly says he wants to do away with the 19th Amendment, which gave women the right to vote. I have no problem attacking a man like yourself, who sits here incoherently supporting an incoherent, unwinnable, illegal war in Iran. I have no problem attacking you, a man who is the religious leader of Pete Hegseth, a man who's a cosplay crusader, who's leading some type of crusade. Probably you put him on as a secretary of defense, getting Americans and innocent civilians killed. I wish you would be a better Christian. I wish you would open up the Bible. I wish you would meet the Jesus that I met when I went to an all boys Jesuit Catholic high school. The Jesus that took care of the sick, that took care of the poor, that welcomed the immigrant, that welcomed the marginalized, that helped them. But instead you've used Jesus as a mascot for, I don't know, your white Christian supremacy, your cruelty, your misogyny. And I'm so glad that people are finally waking up. To your cruelty and to the idiocy of your star disciple, Pete Hexeth, who keeps messing up and literally does not read the Bible and quotes pulp fiction. Just sit with them. Maybe both of you can read the Constitution, read the Bible and just take a break, pastor. Just take a break. Do less.

Speaker 2:
[11:37] All right, pastor, your response?

Speaker 3:
[11:39] Just incidentally, we know that Jesus was not a socialist because he could actually feed people.

Speaker 4:
[11:48] Wonderful, great response.

Speaker 1:
[11:50] That's what you got. Man, Doug, I don't know, brother.

Speaker 2:
[11:54] To be fair to the pastor, the pastor would have probably got a bit of support from Michael Knowles, but fortunately, we can't find Michael Knowles, which is why he hasn't joined.

Speaker 1:
[12:03] It's hard to find a person who the war appears. It's tough for you. It's a really tough job. It's supposed to be a debate show, but the war is so stupid that literally the only person who seems to be for it is Mark Levin. You can't have him on three times a week, Life Liberty Levin, Micropenis Mark, but nobody else can offer a coherent case for this war. Obviously, Michael Knowles doesn't want to come on, and you have Doug over here who's already basically saying he's going to be against it if it goes on much longer. So it's challenging because the war is so stupid. That's why it's challenging.

Speaker 2:
[12:36] Well, I would say that Michael Knowles, hang on pastor, Michael Knowles doesn't duck debates. I think we've had a breakdown of communication. We'll find out what happened. Mr. Chang, I think he would have probably, the pastor does feel a bit on his own at the moment. So Tim Miller, I mean, it's a very interesting split that is occurring here. I'm just again, slightly baffled by Trump's strategy of just dumping all over all these who he did the same to Riley Gaines last week when she quite rightly said she didn't like the imagery of Jesus and so on. No Christian should like the president of the United States doing that. But he started lashing out at people who have been very supportive of him historically, recent historically. What does that tell you about what is going on here? And what does it mean for, say, the midterm elections and the 2028 election?

Speaker 1:
[13:24] Yeah, well, I think I can explain what's going on here pretty simply. And that is that Donald Trump has done a series of things as president that have caused backlash among his own voters and are starting now with the Iran war to negatively impact their lives. I think folks were upset about the Epstein files cover up, of course. That didn't really affect them personally, but they cared about that issue. And then he and when he did it, that caused that kind of started the backlash among the mega base. But now with this war, look, he didn't make the case for this war to anybody, including his own voters. And a lot of people went and voted for him because they were under the repression that he was going to be opposed to this, that he was the candidate that was not going to get us into dumb Middle East wars, because that's what he told them. And so you just have to put your head in or put yourself in the mind of one of these voters who one day woke up, went to the gas station and all of a sudden it cost 10 more bucks to fill up their tank. And they're like, why? I can't afford this. I'm going to have to tighten my belt in other places. And the answer that's being provided is, well, we had to do this war in Iran because we have to degrade the number of ships that they have. It's just like nobody can understand it. It is nonsensical. And so they're starting to get upset. And so in the past, Donald Trump has been able to bully media members or members of the Republican Party who step out of line because the voters are with them. You just look at any in the past of any of the Republicans who have tried to criticize Trump, and then Trump goes back at them harder, and then they back off. We've seen this a bunch. Why has that worked every time? Well, it's worked because the voters have been with Trump every time. The MAGA base was with Trump in these arguments. The MAGA base isn't with him in the arguments anymore. So the bullying doesn't work. If this was a case where if Trump attacked Tucker Carlson and Megyn Kelly, their ratings went down, who knows? My guess is maybe they would modulate. Maybe they'd start talking about something else. Or if he started going after the Republicans on the Hill who criticized him and their voters had a backlash against them, then they would back down. We've seen that a million times. That's not happening this time because people are pissed because the war is stupid. He didn't make a case for it. And they're being harmed.

Speaker 4:
[15:34] Even they knew, even George W. Bush knew a war in Iran would be disastrous. It would be a quagmire. We're about eight weeks in. He cannot get out, Piers. He is stuck. But his ego makes him double down on this failed war. Everything's getting worse. His base is finally fed up.

Speaker 3:
[15:52] I just like how you guys are now.

Speaker 2:
[15:53] Okay, Pastor Doug, final word to you.

Speaker 3:
[15:55] Sure, I just like how you guys are now appealing to authorities like Fuentes and Candace and Alex Jones.

Speaker 1:
[16:04] Well, the war is so stupid that me and Candace finally agree on something. I mean, you're correct. She is a big liar. I don't think that the First Lady of France has a dick, but we do agree that the war is that dumb. Yeah, that's all around the same page on that one thing.

Speaker 4:
[16:17] 70% of Americans.

Speaker 2:
[16:18] There's certainly been... Well, there's certainly an interesting fusion of people that I would never have thought would ever agree about anything going on. Guys, thank you all very much indeed. I'm sorry that Michael didn't join us. That was, I think, some kind of communication breakdown, but we'll get him back next time. Thank you all very much.