transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:06] Welcome back to Gabbing with Gib. I'm your host, Gibson Johns, and it is official, you guys. The Summer House reunion has finally been taped. They taped it yesterday. The cast has presumably gotten whatever they needed to get out of their system. It's not pent up anymore. Probably, I'm guessing, I mean, judging by Andy Cohen's reaction, he posted a video onto his Instagram story just before 8 p.m. on Thursday evening. After the reunion, and he looked exhausted. He looked totally spent from whatever he had just gone through. And he was like, this was one of the most intense reunions I've ever hosted. I've hosted almost 150. And then he later corrected, he's hosted 200 reunions. And he says it's one of the most intense he's ever hosted. He has asked, they asked every single question. A lot of people were already saying, you know, he always says this, whatever. He does not always say it's one of the most intense he's ever hosted in over 200 he's ever hosted. He'll say, oh my god, that was amazing. That was insane. Like you guys are going to love it. But I don't think he normally speaks like this. And also the, his like demeanor was like, honestly, that's not what he usually is like after. So I think that it's going to be a doozy. That's what it sounds like to me from, from just judging by that. And the only other reaction we got after the reunion, right before I recorded this, is that KJ posted on threads, God is good. So I think that's pretty much, that's kind of up to interpretation. However, you're going to take that. And then the other thing that I saw was at this influencer, Emily Gellis, who I do not follow. She's that influencer who was like caught up in like the F factor drama a couple years ago, with like the inventor of like that diet or whatever. And she was only calling them out or something. It was like kind of this crazy thing. There was a podcast all about it, hosted by Casey Wilson actually, a bitch sesh. Anyway, she posted on her Instagram story, again somebody sent me this, that her sister went out to walk her dog in Chelsea, which is where they filmed it. And she claims that she saw Amanda and Wes leaving the reunion together and Amanda was under a blanket. Grain of salt, to be honest. But that's the other tidbit that I saw floating around. Anyway, today on the show, we have Emma Gray and Claire Fallon. They co-host the podcast Love to See It, which is about mostly dating shows. They also cover other reality shows on their Patreon newsletter slash paywalled podcast called Rich Text. And they both been on the show before. We talked about this week's episode of Summer House. We talked about Jesse Solomon on WWHL, and also The Reunion Seating Chart, which had just come out right before we recorded. And we also got into The Valley, which I know that I have not really talked about on the show yet. Again, you know, it's been busy, and I feel like that's kind of getting overshadowed, but I wanted to make sure to at least share some sort of high-level thoughts on that. So we talked about that for sort of the last 20 minutes or so of the episode. Before we get to our chat, which is over an hour long, I do want to tell you about, quickly, about my time out in LA at Hulu's Get Real event. So Hulu's Get Real event, it's kind of like they're, it's kind of like an up front thing, but it's also a little bit like BravoCon adjacent in that it's like a mixture of talent and creators and announcements, and it's in person, and it's really cool. And I got invited to it last year and I was like, I don't know if this is worth it, you know, flying all the way out to LA, like just to like hear some announcements or whatever. And like maybe like get a selfie or something. Well, it looked really cool last year. And then, and I had some friends there and they were really great and like essentially, it was like a cocktail party with like no division between the creators and everybody else at the party and the talent. People were really mingling with each other and you could go up to them and stuff. Then it was also featured on The Kardashians. It was featured on Secret Lives of Women and Wives, and it was featured on Love Thy Nader, which is a show that I had zero expectations about going into it. I fucking love that show. I stan Brooks Nader. I love, like I just love that show so much. Anyway, I decided when I got invited again this year that I would go check it out, and I'm so glad that I did. It was at this gorgeous mansion in Beverly Hills with probably like, I want to say like 30 to 40, like creator, podcaster, influencer types, plus a bunch of other people in and around these shows, as well as talent from all of ABC, Hulu, and Disney's unscripted programming and reality shows. So that's Dancing with the Stars, that's Secret Lives of Women and Wives, Love Thy Nature, that's American Idol, Vanderpump Rules, any Bachelor Nation show, The Kardashians, they have a lot, and there was a lot of people there. The ones who were on Vanderpump Villa and Love Overboard, the show that Gabby Windy hosted, I don't watch those shows anymore, so I'm not familiar with some of those cast members, but there's a lot of people that I recognize at this party, and it was kind of wild, because everyone was mingling, and you could just go up to them. We were doing some of that. We got to lay the land, taking some pictures, obviously lots of photo ops at a party like this, and each show had an activation, so whether that was a room in the mansion or a stand outside, so there was a bouncy house, and there was adopted dogs that you'd take pictures with, and a dirty soda slash iced coffee thing that was the thing on Secret Lives, and the Kardashians had a room. Secret Lives had a room, Brooks Nader's, Love That Nader had a room, Dancing With The Stars. It was really well done, really kind of like, they went all out for it. They did a really, really fantastic job, honestly. We did the Glam Bot. They had like the Cole Walliser or whatever his name is, the guy who does the Glam Bot for all the celebrities at award shows. They had him and his team there, and so I did my first ever Glam Bot. You can go to my Instagram to check that out, tell me how I did. We grabbed some seats in the front row, front and center, because the minute we heard the announcement, we're like, all right, we're going down there. I was with Maggie Kelly of Best of Bravo, Morgan from Morgan's Pop Talks podcast, Abby Bonadies, who I'm sure you've seen her content. She does the flows on the whiteboards. We were also with Oliver Simms and Katy Riccio, just a bunch of really great creators. It was really fun. During the actual presentation, which was hosted by Scotty Evans from Access Hollywood. They made all these announcements, all these different people came out. I'll walk you through those in a second. I think the live stream maybe had some technical difficulties. But because we were in the front row, one of the producers came out to us beforehand and they were like, hey, we actually have to play this game with Scotty, where we hold up thumbs up or thumbs down signs. So do you guys want to play? So we all had these signs and we were featured on the stream because we had sat front row. So that was fun. That was a fun little tidbit. People were sending me grainy screenshots of us on the live stream. Here's the roundup of news that came out from the Hulu Get Real event this year. So obviously, the biggest news is that Cierra Miller and Maura Higgins are the first confirmed stars for Dancing with the Stars Season 35, which is going to air this fall. They've both been on the Traders as faithfuls, but they were on different seasons, obviously. The rumor was that it was going to be Maura and Rob, and the Love Thy Nader room had guys in overalls with no shirts on like Rob wears. So we were like, oh my God, that's such an obvious hint that he's going to be on it. Well, they did not announce Rob. If he's going to be on it, that's coming later. But Maura was announced and then she introduced Sierra, who did a, she streamed in live from New York, because obviously the Summer House Reunion taped yesterday, the day after this event. Obviously, I am so excited for her. This is going to be such a moment. She's going to be exposed to so many more people. It's so exciting. She's getting the Ariana treatment. She's getting the, this is what at this point, this is the trajectory that people go on in these moments. I'm so glad that she's getting this opportunity. I could see her being really good at it, and people are just going to fall in love with her. I did think it was interesting though. In the live stream, she says that she has an unfinished business to wrap up in New York. That language is final to me. Then she also said that this opportunity on Dancing with the Stars is opening up a new chapter. So that language to me implies that we are potentially not going to see Sierra on Summer House this coming season. I think timeline-wise, she could probably do both Summer House and Dancing with the Stars. It doesn't start usually until September, I want to say. But they would start training earlier, so that might become difficult. I don't know. Is there a world in which she could be on Summer House for a month and a half and then go do Dancing with the Stars? Probably. But her language, which none of that was a mistake, I'm sure it was a teleprompter, it made my hopes of her potentially coming back to the show lessened, is what I'll say. I know nothing about that. That was just my read on her script. Secret Lives and Mormon Lives, Orange County was announced. It is going to include Macy's sister, McCall, debuting later this year. There's rumors of other spinoffs too, so I don't know how much they're expanding the show. I guess there was rumors that Jen Affleck was going to be involved in Orange County, but there were no signs of that from the announcement at the event. Khloe Kardashian came up on stage and she announced that the Kardashians is currently filming and that she's also executive producing, and she's going to be featured on a show about her inner circle of friends called The Girls. It's going to be Malika and Khadijah, who if you watch the Kardashians, you know them as Chloe's longtime best best friends, they're twins, and some other women that you would probably recognize if you're a follower of. So that was exciting to have her there. Dancing with the Stars, The Next Pro, which is going to be hosted by Robert Irwin. That's going to premiere in July. Stassi Schroeder of Vanderpump Rules, she came up on stage and she announced House of Stassi. That is her long-awaited return to the spotlight of reality TV. She's been on Vanderpumpville the past couple of seasons, but that's different. This is a show about her and her life with Bo and their kids. It's going to feature Katie Maloney, who was also at this event. It's going to feature Christina Kelly. It's going to feature Taylor Strecker, that podcaster that Stassi is really good friends with. So that's really exciting. That is a big return to reality TV, but obviously jumping networks. And I ran into Katie later and caught up with her, so I'll tell you what she told me. They announced Parker Posey most recently from The White Lotus, but obviously from A Million Other Things. She's going to host a celebrity competition show called The Mob, which takes place at a villa in Italy and has mob-themed challenges, I want to say. I hope it's not too hokey, but it has a celebrity cast. And among the people on the cast are Demi from Secret Lives and also Joe Gorga. Lisa Vanderpump came on stage and she announced something about the Vanderpump villa reunion date or something. She was there. Travis Barker went on stage. He announced that he has a documentary that's going to premiere on Hulu later this summer called Louder Than Fear. Sports Illustrated, Swimsuit Runway Show. They're going to do a special about that that's airing this year. I ran into my childhood friend, Katie Austin, who is pregnant and she is going to be on that as well. There's going to be a weekly Get Real reality TV podcast on Hulu, hosted by not skinny but not fat podcast host, Amanda Hirsch. I've interviewed her several times. I ran into her at the end. She's going to kill it. That's exciting for her. I think they're going to have different Hulu reality stars on there every single week. That just premiered today or yesterday. Heidi Klum came out to announce season 22 of Project Runway. There's some crossover thing with Dancing with the Stars. I didn't really understand what that was. Then the last two things which were not announced at the Get Real event, but I saw some articles and press releases about them. There's going to be a new show in June called Million Dollar Nannies about elite nannies. I think they all go to Ibiza or something. I recognize some of them as TikTok influencer nannies, but that sounds intriguing to me, honestly. Then the last thing is a Christian college dating show called Ring by Spring Break coming soon. Those were the big announcements. Then after the presentation, we went back up to the place where the different activations and the bars were, and we ran into Maura Higgins. I was like, congratulations, you're going to kill it. She was so sweet and she was so excited. Took some pictures with her. We then ran into, a lot of you probably won't care about this, but the Nader's is mom and dad. They're four sisters and they have these two parents who are featured on the first season of their show. The dad's name was Bro, B-R-E-A-U-X, I want to say it's spelled. They're amazing and we were like, we gave them so much attention and we were like, we're your daughters. They're like, we don't know, we're looking for them too. So then we decided to do a lap on the inside of the house because it was kind of hot. Turns out a lot of the stars were hiding out inside from the heat. So we ran in, we were walking down the hallway and walking towards us were the Nader sisters with cameras for their show, they were filming for Love Thine Ader, following them and so we stopped them while they were filming. We were like, oh my God, we just saw your parents two seconds ago. We had this great little moment in the hallway with them. We all took pictures with them. They were so friendly, so nice and I have to say, I've met a lot of reality stars, I've met a lot of celebrities. Not everybody has the aura. It's just like a feeling. Certain people can take over a room. When they walk in, the attention, everybody sort of looks that way. There's a vibe about some really big stars to me that I can sense sometimes and Brooks has that. She's fucking gorgeous. She has so much confidence. She just has it and she's also extremely friendly, and that was really a great run-in. Then right afterwards, we went into the Secret Lives of Women and Wives activation room, and the cast of the girls were sitting there. We chatted with Malika for a while, Chloe's best friend. I was literally telling Abby earlier today how the Kardashians have this overall hulu deal, but they haven't really done any other shows. They've always said there should be a show about their friends and the people closest to them. There's so many characters that fans of the family have always been enamored by. Malika and Khadijah being among them. She's like, yeah, they've been trying to get me to do this for so long. I've just resisted it. I feel like on the Kardashians, I have the best possible position where it's like, I can come in, film a little with Chloe, have fun. It's not about me, it's not drama, but I still get the exposure and whatnot. But I guess they finally convinced her to do it. So it was fun to get to chat with her. We ran into Stassi and Christina Kelly. Stassi was really friendly, took some pictures with her. She was very excited just for the whole thing. Bo was following her about, and he was wearing a suit with shorts. Then Katie Maloney was also there with her boyfriend, who was awesome. Obviously, I just interviewed her for Gabbing with Gib just a month or two ago, I feel like. I was like, hey, I don't know if you remember, you were just on my podcast. She was like, of course. It was funny because you asked me if I would ever do it again. I had to lie because I couldn't tell you about this, obviously, because it had not been announced. But it's been in the works for so long. I was obviously doing the rules for a little bit towards the end there, but Stassi and I weren't always on the best terms. But this has been so much fun. She seems to really be enjoying being part of the world of Stassi. She's going to be heavily featured on the show. She's a full-time cast member, so she seemed really, really good to me, and it was fun to, again, I interviewed some of these people virtually, and so to get some in-person time with them off mic, to actually connect as people is really nice. Yeah, I really enjoyed my chat with Katie. She was awesome. Then we went into the Nader's room, and they were filming their show just being really fun, and they were eating their mom's gumbo, which was part of the activation in their room. And so if you see me in the background of that scene, that's what's happening there. And then we went back outside, and it was like the sun was going down, it was getting cooler. People were getting a little looser. It was open bar, so people were like, the Bachelor Nation people were lit. The Mormon Wives girls were out there filming content. It was Layla, Jesse, Miranda, and Macy. And so I was trying to get my moment to say hi to them. Because again, people I have interviewed all of them virtually, but I never met them in person. And Macy and Jesse had to walk away for something. But I grabbed, I got some time with Miranda and Layla. And they were like, oh my god, of course, like you're the guy with the bookshelves in the back of his video. Which was really cute of them. And they were like shivering. Those girls are, I mean, they're all tiny, but like it was like so, it was getting really cold genuinely, but they felt bad because anyway, but that was really cute that they kind of remembered that. And then we were sort of back by the bar and I'm not drinking right now because I'm running a half marathon on Sunday. And we're just sort of chilling. There were these heater columns and Sarah Jane Nader, the youngest one who I love, she came up with her friend. They were like, oh my god, we need to be on this heater. Like, and then we were totally bonding with them and had this like really fun, kind of like 10 or 15 minute exchange with them. And we were just like talking about New York and the show and she had a security guard give her his blazer because she was so cold. And they were filming the show right next to us. Jimmy Kimmel was with them and Jimmy Kimmel, I think he either created Love Thineator, he's the executive producer of the show, but he was filming with them and their parents. It was just a really good fun vibe. Guillermo from Jimmy Kimmel was there. I'm telling you, like everybody from any show on ABC, Disney, Hulu, whatever, people from all the shows were there. That was really fun. That was a fun way to end it. Right before I left, I went to the bathroom and in there were, not together, Marciano from Vannevar Villa, as well as I guess Secret Lives at this point. I guess I saw a video the next day of him and Jesse sharing a kiss. I think they're together, which I roll. Also, Bo, Saucy's husband. That was the Hulu Get Real House for 2026. Really, really fun. I'm just really happy to be included and stuff like that, honestly. It's pinch me moments and shout out to the team at Hulu for including me because I felt really lucky to be there. First of all, just the access, but also being among so many fellow creators and podcasters that I just look up to and think do such an amazing job and to be considered as valued as them in this space is really validating and really just awesome. I love spending time with them. A lot of these people are essentially my coworkers because being a podcaster and working for my apartment every single day and that's where I make all the content and stuff like I don't get lonely doing it, but it's a very solo job. It's like I'm alone most of the weekdays and again, I don't mind it and I talk to people all the time, obviously over Zoom and I see friends all the time and stuff. But to actually be in person with so many of the people that do similar stuff to me and to bond and kind of get to experience these things together is really nice. And so thank you again to Hulu for including me because it felt really special. Sorry if you were not here for the Hulu reality update. I know that not everybody watches the Hulu shows, but I'm pretty plugged into some of these shows. So I want to give you the update in case you are like me. But anyway, keep listening for my chat with Emma Gray and Claire Fallon who co-host the Love to See It podcast for every podcast. Check out their Patreon rich text. And please make sure to rate, review and subscribe to Gabbing with Gib. We're ever listening to this right now. Have a great weekend and we'll see you next week. I want to gab. All right, today we're Gabbing with Emma Gray and Claire Fallon. They are co-hosts of the podcast, Love to See It, as well as the co-authors of Rich Text, which is a newsletter, which also has a corresponding podcast. And we're talking about Summer House on Summer House Reunion Taping Day. There's a lot going on. Claire and Emma, thanks for doing this. How are you?

Speaker 2:
[21:59] Processing every day. Yeah, we were discussing before how just the pace of news that we are hearing about these people is just absolutely wild. But I am dying to know what is happening right now at the reunion.

Speaker 3:
[22:16] I know. How can we just sit here knowing that it's happening?

Speaker 1:
[22:20] Over in Chelsea, just not that far away.

Speaker 3:
[22:23] We're so close.

Speaker 2:
[22:23] I know. We could walk there.

Speaker 1:
[22:26] Did you see that page six put out those pictures of them walking into the studio? It looks like there's people like, fans went to go watch them walk in.

Speaker 2:
[22:34] Oh, I'm sure.

Speaker 3:
[22:36] It's their Beatles moment.

Speaker 1:
[22:38] It really is. And Queen Mia hilariously wore a Yankees hoodie to walk into the studio with, which is not a coincidence.

Speaker 2:
[22:48] Mia is an icon. I think she is like the greatest addition to Summer House in some years. Just obsessed with her.

Speaker 1:
[22:55] A huge star. A huge star. Did you see the seating chart that just came out?

Speaker 2:
[22:59] No, they put it out.

Speaker 1:
[23:01] Okay, okay. So don't look on your phones. I will read it to you guys. It literally came out 10 minutes ago. Okay. All right. So we have in first chair on the left side, Ciara Miller, followed by Kyle, Lindsay, Mia, Bailey and Ben. Okay. Wow. Okay. On the other side, first chair, Amanda Batula, followed by West, so they're next to each other. Then it's Carl, then it's Jesse. That's actually the most interesting part to me. Then it is KJ, Dara and Levi made it in.

Speaker 2:
[23:39] Oh, I was wondering what had happened to Levi. I was like, has she been fully disappeared?

Speaker 1:
[23:44] Who knows if she will be on for the full time, but she is listed on the reunion chart. I feel like the biggest surprise to me is actually that Carl is over on the other side between West and Jesse.

Speaker 3:
[23:57] Well, they had to put him somewhere. There's really no one on Amanda and West's side.

Speaker 1:
[24:05] I guess they could have put him next to Mia on the other side, on the end before Bailey. But then I guess who knows if Bailey and Carl are a thing, right? I don't know.

Speaker 2:
[24:15] Yeah, maybe they just were like, this will get him more in the mix and he can tolerate being there, even though he's not on their side.

Speaker 1:
[24:24] But he's a mess.

Speaker 2:
[24:25] Interesting that... My favorite meme ever. Interesting that they put Kyle next to Ciara. Like, I guess I get it, but...

Speaker 1:
[24:36] Yeah, because usually it would be Kyle and Amanda essentially sharing first chair on one side. That's been every year. I feel like Lindsay's like kind of a part-time cast member this season, you know, so they couldn't have put her next to Ciara and Mia would have maybe been too far up for her. Because Kyle and Amanda is a big, is still a huge part of the season. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2:
[24:57] Right. They're kind of like, these are the two victims of these kids, of these people.

Speaker 1:
[25:01] Yes. And they're sitting directly across from the people who wronged them. So...

Speaker 2:
[25:05] Right.

Speaker 3:
[25:06] Oh, it feels like Lindsay maybe even got bumped up a little bit because they...

Speaker 1:
[25:12] Because they know she'll be activated.

Speaker 3:
[25:13] They know she'll be activated. They need activated Lindsay to be in the mix.

Speaker 2:
[25:16] Lindsay is a professional and she is showing up to work.

Speaker 1:
[25:21] Do you read into Jesse not being next to West?

Speaker 2:
[25:27] Combined with the tone that he took on Watch What Happens Live, it definitely makes me think that there is more distance between Jesse and West than we might have thought.

Speaker 3:
[25:39] I've seen people compare Jesse's position to Tom Schwartz. And I don't think that that is quite the same because Jesse clearly feels like kind of personally wounded by some of the choices that were made. Like him being told that it's not okay to pursue Sierra. Meanwhile, West is about to start having a fling with their friend's wife. Like there are just these factors that seem to make Jesse feel less like he is the co-conspirator and more like he is personally aggrieved.

Speaker 1:
[26:15] Yeah, totally. Now that you say that, it's like I'm realizing that I feel like for Jesse, maybe the worst thing that you could have done to him in his eyes is like make him the villain when he didn't deserve to be a villain. You know, like he wants to be well-liked, both those boys do.

Speaker 2:
[26:31] Right? And now everyone is like, you knew you had all of this prior knowledge and he's spending all of his time being like, no, I have the receipts. Amanda apologized to me. She lied to me.

Speaker 1:
[26:43] So tell me more about what your thoughts were on his Walter Abbott's live appearance and the clips that you saw. Like what did you, because I'm seeing a lot of different interpretations of his vibe. Like I heard, I saw some clip of Andy talking about, he thought that he like didn't ride the fence too much and he like, you know, had a point of view. I kind of think he rode the fence more than I expected him to.

Speaker 2:
[27:06] Did you think he was going to go harder against West?

Speaker 1:
[27:10] I just, I think I maybe expected a little bit of a harder line against West, even just because like that's, that would make him, that would be a more popular move. I think, again, I think Jesse wants to be a well-liked person. And this is an opportunity to go more to that direction. You know?

Speaker 3:
[27:27] Yeah, do you think he's playing this wrong? Like, this is an opportunity for him to kind of solidify more with the other cast and not be sort of a dynamic duo with West, who's on the out.

Speaker 1:
[27:39] I think that'd be wise of him.

Speaker 3:
[27:41] Yeah. Yeah. I think the impression I always get, because I just, after many years of watching reality TV, I'm like, they're keeping it for The Reunion. Like, my impression was like, he's trying not to say too much because they have to keep the good material. But who can say? Like, whenever someone is not being fully transparent for whatever reason, it comes off as equally suspicious in how they deliver things.

Speaker 2:
[28:08] He was a little opaque and it's hard. Yeah, I think you can interpret it in radically different ways. I did see people saying like, he's been coached by West and I think he did know the whole time. Maybe I'm naive, but like that was not my read on the situation. I did feel like his personal hurt felt real. I wondered if he was still sorting through how to deal with the fact that this is his closest friend in this universe, who is now not only totally unpopular, but did also, according to him, lie to him multiple times.

Speaker 1:
[28:47] Yeah, for Jesse, it's like you don't want to be guilty by association, and that's the default feeling about him. Do I believe that he technically didn't know and they were lying to him? Yeah, I know for a fact they were lying to him, but do I think that he essentially knew? Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[29:04] Which he kind of said.

Speaker 1:
[29:06] This is a technicality, but I think that his suspicions for me were probably high enough to the point where maybe you should have taken it to Sierra or Kyle before Wes and Amanda even admitted to it. You know what I mean? I feel like he probably had so much first-person evidence essentially, because I know that they were all tracking things. So it's like he could have sounded the alarm probably.

Speaker 2:
[29:38] Yeah. It sounds like a lot of people in that group had a lot of information before it was actually confirmed.

Speaker 3:
[29:46] If I found out that my friend had left brunch with me to have a second one-on-one brunch with bizarre, there would be a lot of questions about why they did that. We're all friends. Why are you having a second brunch just the two of you? Why didn't we know about it? Why know, oh, Amanda and I are meeting up later because she couldn't get up this early or whatever.

Speaker 1:
[30:09] It was lying by omission. It's exactly what it was. They ran into them the same day at a bar.

Speaker 3:
[30:14] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[30:15] People are putting it together. They think that it's this day they post all those pictures at those like different meals. Like not only did they hide it from the first brunch, but then they posted it all over the internet. So it's like, I don't understand. Yeah, I don't understand. But Claire, your point about holding things for the reunion I think is like really important to remember because that's how I also interpreted Wes podcast thing earlier this week, which was a total flop. But I think it's a really difficult balance, especially when you're so close to the reunion for any of these people to say anything, but also keep the juicy and important bits for the reunion where it really matters, and make sure everybody, because we're hyper online people, but a lot of the audience watches the reunion, and that's what they're doing. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2:
[31:08] So you have to make sure that you're delivering the message in the place where the most people are going to see it, and also Bravo is clearly insisting that there are certain things that they hold back in order to not violate their contracts. I think the West podcast was just, he could have just done such a better job of making it clear that he was, he wanted to clear up this one thing. He didn't need to give a month. What are you doing, sir?

Speaker 3:
[31:35] A month when they got serious, which both doesn't eliminate when it started, and also gives a very specific date when it got serious, before you had been previously leading us to believe that happened.

Speaker 1:
[31:51] A month before you lied about it on national television.

Speaker 3:
[31:53] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[31:54] He was like, give me a medal. We got serious in February. Sir, she and her husband announced their separation in mid-January.

Speaker 3:
[32:05] And then in March, you put out a joint statement in which you were both like, we're still trying to figure out what these feelings are. You've been serious for a month. Right. You've not reached any conclusion.

Speaker 1:
[32:14] It's such a mess in terms of what they're saying. And it's like, you were serious in February. What was it? When did it start? Right.

Speaker 2:
[32:23] Either give a timeline or say, I have a timeline. It will all be explained at the reunion. But I want to make it very clear that everyone involved was single at the time. He could have just said that.

Speaker 3:
[32:37] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[32:37] The thing is, that's not true. Maybe, maybe Sierra, Amanda, Kyle West were all technically single. But actually, I don't think he was. I think this Montana girl, I think he was like exclusive with her. I'm pretty sure.

Speaker 2:
[32:50] No, I think he's really wants to glaze over that.

Speaker 3:
[32:53] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[32:53] But we're not forgetting.

Speaker 3:
[32:55] We're not forgetting. And he's like, I don't see a ring on this finger. Like, what are we married? But also Amanda's married, but she's separated, so she's not really married. Well, so what is it to be single?

Speaker 1:
[33:05] A headache. It's a headache. It's also just like, I think the thing about that I come back to is like, Wes put that out three days before The Reunion taped. Just actually, you have not said anything for over a month. Just don't say it. Just don't say anything. Exactly.

Speaker 2:
[33:21] What are you doing?

Speaker 1:
[33:22] You have a sports podcast with an apparently MAGA co-host. Just talk about your sports and save it three more days. I don't understand why he even had to say anything at that point.

Speaker 2:
[33:34] Or take a nice pause on the pod. Yeah. I mean, and this is my feeling about Wes and Amanda in general. You are taking so much heat right now, correctly so. People are furious right now. Just back off for a few weeks. Just don't be seen going out. You don't need to be kissing on camera at a Yankees game. You don't need to go on your little podcast with your MAGA Barbie co-host or whatever. We don't need that to be added. You don't just back off and be quiet and let people be angry at you for a few weeks.

Speaker 3:
[34:12] Amanda has said that she hates going out. Sierra, in fact, recently in her interview on this whole situation was like, well, Amanda didn't come to my birthday because she likes to be invited but she doesn't like to actually go. Suddenly, she can't be contained. She's irrepressible. She's like, get me out in the streets. I need to live my life out there. You hate going outside. Stay in bed. This is the perfect time to stay in bed. Of course, it comes off more like they're trying to not just regain normalcy, but parade their relationship and show that they are worth it, and they're strong, and they're legitimate. That is not having the effect that they want it to have.

Speaker 1:
[34:54] Certainly not. I do think it's probably a little bit difficult to untangle. This is also the first time that Amanda has not been in a committed marriage for 10 years, so maybe that's part of why she wants to be out and about. But again, if you in West want to go to a public place, don't go to the West Village in Williamsburg. Go to a random bar on the Upper West Side in a family neighborhood where you're much less likely to be submitted to Dumois and spotted. There are ways to do this where you don't have to literally be a hermit in your apartment. You know what I mean? And keep the PDA away until after the reunion tapes. It's just not that difficult. And they're just, I really think that they think it's them against the world. And they're being defiant. I really believe that.

Speaker 2:
[35:44] I do too. And I think that that was something I found very interesting from Jesse's Watch What Happens live appearance. He said he thinks West is going to come into the reunion combative and defensive. From what I've heard about the way that Amanda has been reacting to this, it sounds like she is taking a similar tack from the information I've gotten. And I find that to be really disturbing because it tells me that these two people cannot read the room, cannot take accountability for their own actions, cannot take a pause to consider that they might be, yes, getting an onslaught of some hate online that I'm sure is really abusive and terrible, but that the majority of it is really valid substantive criticism. And when you are a public figure, you have to be able to separate those two things. And if you fuck up, you have to just take it.

Speaker 3:
[36:41] The fact that West, you would think, learned this lesson his first season on the show, and he's doing it again, does make me believe that sometimes I have human empathy for people who are villainized in these scandals. And I think that might sometimes be misplaced because I'm like, oh, they probably feel so bad. You know, they're so ashamed. I think a lot of the time they're like, this is all perfect, this is raising our profiles. Like, we're gonna do this and then we'll go on Traders and people will love us again and we'll be so iconic. And that is gross, like that is off-putting and people are sensing that from the way that they're handling this.

Speaker 1:
[37:24] Yeah, and that's what West, from what I've heard, is sort of stinking. Like, I think that he thinks that he can, I think that he almost views this as like, yes, he considers himself to be sort of the Tom Sand of all the situation, but like, I think he almost views it, like he can handle that position better than Tom ever could and like, sort of, you know, turn lemons into lemonade out of this situation that he has found himself in. That's sort of what I am understanding and like, it's just so wild. Like again, if you're gonna say something, the first thing you should say is Sierra's name and that you're sorry about her. And like, they have not been able to do that.

Speaker 2:
[38:04] They haven't uttered her name.

Speaker 1:
[38:05] It's really crazy. And it's like, it just, it just tells you they don't understand it and they're really centering themselves and that's something that we even saw in this episode from this week with West. It's like every, we saw three different conversations slash apology situations where West leads with, I'm bummed, I'm upset when we're like this. I don't know how to handle it. This is how it makes me feel.

Speaker 2:
[38:31] Oh, you don't want to be friends? That's so hard for me.

Speaker 1:
[38:34] Exactly. And so it's just, that tracks with what Amanda and West are doing right now. Before we get into the episode, one thing I want to point out about Jesse's Watch Happens Live, which I thought was interesting. We talked about how everyone was sort of tracking stuff. He was like, yeah, I was suspicious. Sierra was suspicious. We were in contact. She said, hold it for The Reunion, and then it all came out. So it sounds like the original plan was to sort of confront West and Amanda at The Reunion if they had not come clean with their joint statement, essentially.

Speaker 3:
[39:08] Oh, damn.

Speaker 1:
[39:09] Which would have been iconic.

Speaker 2:
[39:10] Wild.

Speaker 1:
[39:12] But then this last month wouldn't have been as major.

Speaker 2:
[39:16] But then we wouldn't have been able to watch each episode.

Speaker 1:
[39:19] Totally.

Speaker 2:
[39:19] Like detectives.

Speaker 3:
[39:21] Yeah, it's too bad the fans are just paying such close attention to their social imprint.

Speaker 1:
[39:26] Yes, exactly. All right. So we're going to pause on the West-Amanda situation. I want to get out a couple of smaller storylines that we're still dealing with on the show that I think are still worth talking about. We talked about Mia being just a huge star, one of the best additions to the show in such a long time. I think that, she'd said in one of the confessionals this week that, I know nobody wants to hear about this, I know whatever. I'm like, I want to hear about this Mia. I love how much of an open book she is about such difficult things that she's gone through. The recent death of her mom, which was very unexpected. We have this incredible scene of her in the medium, which, side note, Sierra taking her and Mia and her brother, taking notes for them, crying for them. I mean, that is the kind of friend that she is. But what have been your reactions to Mia opening up about this and the dreams she's been having? Just like, what are the thoughts you guys have?

Speaker 3:
[40:29] I know Emma and I both cried through this whole scene. It's very relatable to me because my mom passed away when I was young.

Speaker 1:
[40:38] I'm so sorry.

Speaker 3:
[40:39] Thank you. I was younger than Mia, so her experience is more recent and fresh. It's interesting to hear it being talked about, that raw experience and the dreams that she had, I think are such a common way that our brains try to process that loss. I definitely remember having dreams like that where my mom was there and it was like an emotional reunion, and then you wake up and she's not there, and it's so devastating. To see her open up about that was extremely moving, and it made me feel really close to her. I also think that it's true that sometimes people don't want to hear about it. That can feel mundane compared to the drama and the scandal, but she is so charismatic and such a compelling person and interesting speaker, and she just has it. So she can take these more day-to-day storylines and give them that pizzazz so that they really draw you in. And I think that's such an important quality to have when you're on a show like this. I would watch her do a storyline about learning how to separate out her recycling. I would watch her do anything. And so to watch her go through this has been completely captivating to me.

Speaker 1:
[42:03] Completely. Oh my god. No, it feels like really special. And I feel privileged to be able to watch these scenes.

Speaker 2:
[42:12] I feel like we're really getting to know her. And I think that that is something that can get lost when you bring a new cast member on to such an ensemble show, where there are people that you, as an audience, have had a relationship with for a decade. It can be hard for someone to break through. And I think Mia has done so effectively for all of the reasons that you're laying out, Claire.

Speaker 3:
[42:33] Yeah. I think that it also makes you very invested in her finding what she's looking for. You really get a sense of not just her interests or this or that, but what kind of person is she? What is she looking for in life? What are the obstacles to getting that? You can see her craving for family, stability, having that community around her. How is she going to get that for herself? How is her relationship going to provide that to her? And it really just makes you invested in everything she does.

Speaker 2:
[43:02] And it has made me so invested in the relationship between Ciara, Mia and KJ also, like that dynamic to me, I'm sort of feeling like, oh, maybe this is the future of Summer House if they want to continue being a part of it.

Speaker 1:
[43:16] Yeah, I think one of the things that they've done a really excellent job of as people, them three, but also the show in terms of presenting these things is like, it easily could have been, all right, let's be there to support Ciara through this West bullshit. And that could have been like kind of it. But it feels like the focus and the sort of mutual support is pretty, it's more spread out than maybe it would have been another situation, I think that's really important. And obviously me and Ciara's friendship predates the show, but they really met, they met KJ, I think on the show and like, yeah, as we've seen on social media, like he is sticking up for Ciara, like this is like a much, and he was Wes' friend, Wes brought him into the show and like, that just to me speaks to the connection that they have built as a trifecta. And so to see Ciara there for Mia, Mia there for Ciara, Mia and Ciara both there for KJ when, you know, we find out that him and Dara are official and they're like, they're supportive, but they're also like, also maybe like, don't rush into this because like, she's not going anywhere kind of thing. And so it was a really beautiful episode where we saw all of that together. I think that was really nice.

Speaker 2:
[44:28] I agree.

Speaker 3:
[44:29] Yeah, we actually see them like being a community and like actually going out of their way to like look out for each other. And that's not always something that we see.

Speaker 1:
[44:40] And we, we, I don't think we had known about Mia's brother, which I'm, it was like, I like felt like I almost like exhaled when she was walking up with that guy. And we found out it was her brother. I was like, okay, she has her brother, you know, like it's because we had found out that she had lost both of her parents. And so like to know that they're in this together, I felt was really, it felt really nice to see that.

Speaker 2:
[45:02] Yeah, absolutely. And again, it's a testament to her being such a compelling new character that I was like, I want to know more about her brother. I want to know more about the rest of her life in New York City and what that larger community looks like. She's just someone that I've become so instantly invested in.

Speaker 1:
[45:22] I'm getting the sense that it's pretty clear that her and her boyfriend are not together right now. It's pretty obvious.

Speaker 2:
[45:28] It's the vibe that I've been getting.

Speaker 1:
[45:30] The vibe is like, no, we're still together, right?

Speaker 3:
[45:36] Yeah, people can certainly talk in a certain way about their relationships on these shows even though they're still together and Amanda and Kyle have been doing it for years. But we see her go from the time of the show being like, he's such a wonderful partner. He's my future, but it's hard that he's away all the time. By the time she has filmed The Confessionals, the tone has shifted a little bit.

Speaker 1:
[46:04] Certainly. I interviewed her earlier in the season before this whole thing broke out. I was like, is there any update on the relationship or whatever? She was like, I'll share updates later kind of thing. My sense is maybe at the reunion she'll share that update.

Speaker 2:
[46:20] That was my sense too. He's been basically completely absent from her social media for months, which again, not a smoking gun, but putting all these things together.

Speaker 1:
[46:31] That's the sense. She seems like the kind of person who once said she probably recognized this is not the relationship for her. Maybe I'm totally speculating. She seems like she's like, all right, on to the next, I can do better. That seems like what would be her vibe in a situation like that.

Speaker 2:
[46:49] Given what she said she's looking for, it would make sense to me that she might just want to be with someone who's able to be a little bit more physically present in her day-to-day life.

Speaker 1:
[46:59] KJ and Dara, we don't spend too much time on them, but I feel like there's a portion of the online viewership who doesn't like Dara or they don't trust her. I don't get it. I feel like everything I've seen from her on the show is pretty encouraging and they have a really nice rapport that seems pretty mutual. I don't see where the suspicion comes from.

Speaker 3:
[47:20] Yeah. The anxiety that I have I think is more akin to Sierra and Mia, which is sometimes people want to solidify a spot on the show, and so they get involved with you quickly, but they're highly motivated to do that, so be careful. Would Dara Paula West? I don't think so. She seems more genuine than West ever did, who was constantly trying to get Sierra to sleep with him and then was like, I don't want to take her on a date during the week. That's dumb. Dara seems like she's really in this and they have a great vibe, and I don't know why people don't like her.

Speaker 2:
[47:58] They're also still together. I'm like, I think.

Speaker 1:
[48:00] Exactly.

Speaker 2:
[48:02] Like, what are you concerned about at this point? Like, yes, someone can always in the future treat someone else in a shitty way, but I don't think we've seen evidence of that from Dara.

Speaker 3:
[48:14] Well, she lied about being in Ben's room the first night that she met them, which is basically cheating.

Speaker 2:
[48:23] It just made me feel sad. I saw that KJ had to get on threads or whatever and be like, can you guys please stop cyberbullying my girlfriend?

Speaker 1:
[48:31] Guys, come on.

Speaker 2:
[48:33] I'm like, you know what? We have enough people to cyberbully, okay? Back off, Dara.

Speaker 3:
[48:38] But when Wes says stop cyberbullying my girlfriend, suddenly it's a problem.

Speaker 1:
[48:42] Right, right. Oh my God.

Speaker 3:
[48:45] No, but truly, the Ben thing seemed so overblown. I was like, they weren't dating yet. I don't think she had met KJ maybe once briefly, if at all, when she was in Frank's room. Who cares?

Speaker 1:
[48:57] Right. Ben was carrying himself very weirdly for the first two thirds of the season, before Sabrina came rearing back into the picture. The whole thing was so bizarre, but I don't blame Dara for feeling that out for a second.

Speaker 2:
[49:13] She felt it out. She wasn't really into it.

Speaker 3:
[49:17] It's okay.

Speaker 2:
[49:18] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[49:18] Move on. Who cares? Ben was like, we weren't really flirting. Okay, Ben is always going to say it. Ben is terrified of being accused of flirting with any woman who isn't Sabrina.

Speaker 1:
[49:26] It's so bizarre. It's really bizarre. Let's get back to the biggest issues at hand. So the two scenes I kind of want to start out with are, we have a to be continued into the episode and it picks back up with Amanda telling Sierra, you're seen, you're loved, you deserve more respect than you get. And you kind of couple that with the Amanda West, Kyle in the city scene where Amanda's like, you disrespecting Sierra in this way has made the dynamic all weird because you've been a really good friend to me this whole summer, but like you're making it weird by disrespecting her. So, Amanda, it's just like there's more and more of these scenes that just are so ironic and land completely terribly now.

Speaker 2:
[50:16] The absolute gall to talk about repeatedly about the respect Sierra deserves but does not receive, and then to do this and on top of that, to not even, from what our understanding is of the situation, not even really understand that she has done the worst disrespect of Sierra of anyone, like that is what kills me. From what I've been hearing, she's kind of saying like, I was always closer with Jesse and West, those were my real friends, Sierra wasn't my real friend. This is what I'm hearing. First of all, that's complete bullshit.

Speaker 1:
[50:58] Bullshit, bullshit.

Speaker 2:
[50:59] But also how can you say that when this is what we are seeing from this summer? Well, we have seen this like mutual dynamic of like what at least looks like deep, deep care. So what are you saying? You were faking being a good friend to Sierra for the camera? Like is that?

Speaker 3:
[51:16] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[51:17] Where's your Emmy?

Speaker 3:
[51:18] Give her an Emmy I guess.

Speaker 1:
[51:19] Yeah, like what?

Speaker 3:
[51:20] It makes it all seem very self-motivated in a sense. Like does this all just go back to how does this reflect on me, Amanda and how valued and admired I am? Like at some level, was her confronting West more about how she couldn't continue to receive his care? If it was going to make people angry that he wasn't also giving it to Sierra, like is it really more about securing that for herself? Like that she gets to stay close friends with him without any blowback, only if he is able to act right with Sierra? Or is it about putting herself in the light of being a good friend? Because we can say, oh, she doesn't understand, she doesn't understand. To me, it's becoming more clear watching these that she does understand. And she just thinks that she's exempt or her desires come first. And if she just takes what she wants and guts it out, then she'll win. Like, you know, she explained these dynamics to West multiple times. She clearly understands, you know.

Speaker 2:
[52:26] She articulates them to Ciara.

Speaker 3:
[52:28] Don't play dumb. Like, you understand.

Speaker 1:
[52:31] It's almost like, because I view what Amanda has done as like, one aspect that really just blows my mind is how much goodwill she's thrown away and how she's like, this was her moment, you know, this was her post-relationship sort of Phoenix rising from the ashes moment. And to throw that all away from him, I wonder if she's almost doing that as like, that gave her more of an excuse to do this, because she's been in this terrible marriage for 10 years, and she's earned someone treating her the way that Wes is treating her. That's sort of how maybe she's talking like that, you know?

Speaker 2:
[53:03] I think that's a really good point.

Speaker 3:
[53:05] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[53:06] And I think, yeah, I think there is sort of like an entitlement of like, well, he was nice to me and the feelings developed.

Speaker 1:
[53:12] You see how Kyle treated me, you know?

Speaker 2:
[53:13] You've seen it. Like, why does everyone only care about Sierra? Like, they should care about me, Amanda. And it's just missing the point that, like, Wes is not the only mediocre white guy who could have been nice to you.

Speaker 3:
[53:27] He seems to know tons of sports dirtbags that she could hook up with, you know?

Speaker 1:
[53:32] Totally.

Speaker 3:
[53:33] Totally. He's got a whole posse.

Speaker 1:
[53:35] One of the, like, recurring things that I'm getting from Wes, so, like, one thing he says is, like, my main objective is still, like, don't upset Ciara. Like, we were on a good track, and the flirting, like, made him feel more comfortable sort of getting back on that good track, but he ruined it by making out with this random person he never talked to before. And there's another moment in this episode, in the first conversation they have, when they're leaving on a Sunday, he comes up and she's like, this is why I said we shouldn't be friends. Like, this is, like, just... He is, like, he says in The Confessional, basically, like, I've spent these two years doing this and acting right. Like, to me, the impression is, he feels like he has, like, earned, like, he's done his time. And it's like, once you do your time and you build up a good will, like, does he think that he should now be able to disrespect her again? Does he think that he doesn't, he should be able to think without acting at all? Like, it's like he's this entitled little boy that, like, you know, like, that's the idea that keeps coming up from him. And it's frustrating as hell to hear.

Speaker 2:
[54:41] It almost goes back to the way that Paige called him out during the reunion a couple of seasons back where she's like, the rest of us don't live, make decisions or like live our lives because the cameras are there. We just live our lives and then we are filmed. I'm paraphrasing. And it feels like he's still doing a calculus where he's like, I've been so nice to her on camera for two summers. Like, I did it. I did it. And everyone else, including the audience and Sierra, is looking at this as this is a relationship that was violated. The trust was broken. And so it takes time to build that trust back. And once you've earned the trust back, presumably if it's a relationship that you want to continue, friendship or otherwise, a normal human would be like, and now I continue to treat this person with respect, because that's how I have the relationship.

Speaker 3:
[55:36] Right. Like it really feels like it's all quite divorced from who Sierra is to him as a friend.

Speaker 2:
[55:45] Yes.

Speaker 3:
[55:47] There's no sense of like, I feel like I'm trying but it's still not making you feel comfortable with me again. And like, what can I do to like change this dynamic to make you feel like you can trust me again? It's really like, have I put in enough being respectful coins yet that I can take a being careless with your feelings treat out again? Like it's ridiculous. Like he works, he's like, I've done so much to get to the point where I'm allowed to like grab your like belly or like your side in front of everyone. And like no one gets mad at me. So like you shouldn't get mad at me anymore because I've done all the respectful things. That's not, what about her feelings? What about what she wants from your relationship?

Speaker 2:
[56:28] Well, there's no care for her feelings because she even says, this is why I have felt that it's better for us to not be friends. Let's leave it at that. She tries to draw a boundary multiple times. She says, I don't feel like I can trust you. I am concerned that I am going to be made a fool again. I am going to be hurt again. And he just barrels past that and is like, well, that's really hard for me. I can't really do that. And he breaks her down to the point where she asks him to be best friends again. And that broke my fucking heart.

Speaker 3:
[57:03] It's really sad because you can see that she's like, there's no winning here. If I mean, then he goes around like, oh, I'm scared of Sierra. She's always mad. What can I do so she's not mad? And if she's nice, then he starts stepping all over the boundaries again and making her confused about what he wants, because that's fun for him and that makes his ego feel good. So there's no safe way for her to interact with him that won't result in her either being villainized or disrespected. And she's like, what if we just were best friends? If we're best friends, that means you're respectful to me and you consider me as a person. Why can't we have that? And he's like, great, but he doesn't mean it the way she means it.

Speaker 1:
[57:41] No, and he doesn't know how to be friends with her without also being flirty, without also being touchy, and without also sort of even if she's like, let's be best friends, if his actions and how he's treating her feels like more than that, like any normal person would be like, okay, like I'm still confused over like what this is. And I do think it's maybe they have never really just been friends. Like they've like their friendship was formed in a combination with a romantic relationship. And I think that she probably knows that that's like, that's probably why she was like, I knew we can do this because like, those are inextricable things for us as two people. Like we can't be platonic friends, I think is essential what she was saying in that first conversation that we watched and.

Speaker 2:
[58:25] And I think that's correct. Yeah, I think your read on it is spot on. And if you are the person who has hurt someone, it is incumbent on you to like exercise caution moving forward and to be respectful if that person tries to draw a line. And instead, he just spent all summer seemingly breaking her down again and again and again. And from what we know, those physical boundaries are going to be crossed.

Speaker 1:
[58:53] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[58:54] And then to just turn and be like, well, we're all single. So I can go get with Amanda now.

Speaker 1:
[59:00] Fuck off, it's so annoying. And like, the one that honestly pissed me off the most was the sort of middle, really quick apology that we got, which was, I mean, again, just like in hindsight, this is just like crazy. Sierra's on FaceTime with Amanda, who has chosen to skip out on this weekend. After encouraging Wes to apologize to Sierra in this coming weekend, in the middle of the week, Amanda pretends to be sick and she says that she can't be out there, which is, I think, also showing that she, she's kind of leaving Sierra hanging a little bit with all these boys, and she knows that Wes is gonna try to confront her again. Like, it's a little bit of a bad friend move, I think. It's a little bit of a selfish move if you really think about it. But he like stumbles into the room and he's like, are you on FaceTime? And he's like, well, I'm just really bummed out. That's it. Okay. And they like backs away from the room. And it's just like, that's what you came up with over the past three days.

Speaker 2:
[60:01] You had days to workshop this shit.

Speaker 1:
[60:03] That's what you did. Again, all about him and it was about three sentences and nothing about her feelings. Guys, and then-

Speaker 3:
[60:14] What is she supposed to do with that? What is she supposed to do with that? And then he's like, oh, well, she's giving me nothing. I guess I'll just mosey on out. Like you barely said anything.

Speaker 1:
[60:23] And then she has to follow up and maybe a producer like kind of encouraged. My head of me was like, I know producer was like, that was not enough. You know, like it was bad timing because we were talking to Amanda. Yeah. So she, but she has to be the one that's like, let's go get coffee tomorrow morning. Like that was essentially that was not enough of a conversation. And this is where we hear from her in a confessional. It's like, I'm so tired of like pretending to hate him when I don't hate him. But to me, like the read on that is like the audience essentially wants me to still be mad at him. And like, I will be, as you said, Claire, like I will be villainized if I mishandle this and, you know, take him back, then I'm pathetic. Or if I, it's just like, it's a no win situation for her in her eyes in terms of, you know, she talks about in the last conversation, we'll get into that right now. Like, if the cameras weren't here, if the fans weren't here, like this would be a totally different situation. But again, that is an inextricable thing from what we're talking about.

Speaker 2:
[61:22] I think the most honest thing that comes up in that last conversation is West admitting that he resents Ciara.

Speaker 3:
[61:30] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[61:30] And I really feel like that nugget is sort of the truth underlying all of this. And I wonder if there is a resentment that Amanda also feels towards Ciara.

Speaker 1:
[61:41] What do you think that resentment would be from Amanda to Ciara?

Speaker 2:
[61:44] I mean, I think it would have been a more recently developed one. But like, oh, Ciara is always the victim. I was the victim of Kyle, but like I'm not allowed to go date and be happy. Only Ciara is. Like, I get the sense that that is kind of her read on this. And it is coming from like, oh, fans think I'm the bad guy and like, that's Ciara's fault.

Speaker 3:
[62:08] Yeah. I think, I don't know if, and I agree with that to be clear, but like going back further, I don't know if Amanda had a resentment towards Ciara like West clearly does. And he brings it up in this way that's like, one might feel a resentment, but it's truly a testament to us that I don't feel and it's like West, you do feel it. It's so obvious and that's why it always comes out. And it's just so hard that you keep rejecting me and you keep blah, blah, blah. He clearly resents her. I think that at minimum, Amanda is really focused on male attention and approval. And I do think it bothers her that Ciara gets a lot of it. And whereas Ciara is like, well, these men are all kind of objectifying me, they're commodifying me. They're not taking me seriously. Like, it hurts to constantly be pursued in this way. Amanda was like, I would love that. Like, I wish all these men were trying to fuck me all the time.

Speaker 2:
[63:00] Well, that's what you see from her interactions with Ben, for example, and her interpretation of it.

Speaker 1:
[63:05] Well, he actually did want to fuck me in the pool, and I have the receipts for it.

Speaker 2:
[63:08] And everyone needs to know that. And did I play into it? Yes, because I loved it. And it's like those moments.

Speaker 1:
[63:13] Yeah, you're right.

Speaker 2:
[63:14] And like, you're telling the truth about your actual motivations.

Speaker 3:
[63:17] 100%. And then she goes to her friends, to Sierra and Mia, and she's like, I feel itchy that I made someone, like by implication, Sabrina, feel some sort of way through my behavior. Like, I feel bad. But everything else that she says in her confessionals and in her scenes with Ben and Sabrina makes it seem much more like what she felt was that her ego was wounded because she thought Ben was into her. And he is now sitting her down and saying, not only am I not into you, I was behaving that way because I felt bad for you. And you talking about it, like upset the girl I actually like. So you need to fix it. She didn't feel like the most special pretty princess for Ben anymore. And that I think really made her feel itchy because it made her feel rejected and embarrassed. And I think that being next to Ciara, who is so gorgeous and so magnetic, and men are always trying to get with her, I think that Amanda has maybe felt a lot of jealousy.

Speaker 1:
[64:20] This is just popping into my head right now. But I keep saying, clearly Amanda was planting seeds for leaving Kyle at this point. Clearly that was in her head and very much at the forefront of it. And I wonder if choosing to reunite with this Sabrina woman, he's still with her now. I wonder if that, and Wes and Amanda had still had moments of they were clearly getting close and they were touchy a little bit earlier in the summer. But I feel like this was also a fork in the road for Amanda, where it was like, I wonder if she sort of viewed like, all right, I'll leave Kyle at the end of the city, at the end of the summer, whatever, and then maybe I can get with Ben. You know, maybe that was sort of like a thought. And then when that was like a dead end, you loop back to the other road and it's like, well, who's the other guy that's making tension to me? And that's Wes. And it kind of feels like we're sort of leaning, we're beginning to lean obviously more in that direction at this point in the summer. And I wonder if that was sort of like, that was like the contingency plan for post-Kyle. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2:
[65:23] Yeah, and I think that all of that could be totally subconscious.

Speaker 1:
[65:26] More subconscious.

Speaker 2:
[65:27] Right, like I don't think that Amanda was like masterminding some big thing. But I do think that she is someone who clearly does not have a good sense of herself outside of being defined by the affections and attentions of a man. And so I would imagine that it would feel, it is a real challenge in any situation to leave a long relationship, especially when with such a complex dynamic. But I can imagine, yeah, but I can imagine that someone like Amanda might feel a lot safer if she felt like, I have a contingency plan, I have an option. And I do wonder if seeing this attention coming towards her from West, maybe made her feel safe enough to leave that relationship, whether or not, again, it was like conscious.

Speaker 1:
[66:20] That feeling existed elsewhere, essentially.

Speaker 2:
[66:22] Exactly.

Speaker 3:
[66:23] I do, yeah, I don't think she's the mastermind, but it does seem plausible to me that she had a storyline in mind as well. Like I was watching the season and I was sort of feeling it. I was like, she leaves the verbally abusive husband who's always calling her a dumb bitch. This other cute guy maybe had a little crush on her. She'll be single soon. We could watch romance blossom. These are storylines that can really solidify your place on the show outside of your marriage. I do think it's quite plausible that she was like, this is an option for my storyline after leaving Kyle and then that's gone. Then here's another storyline. There's so many shitty men. She could have dated in New York and you're telling me that she truly felt that her only option was West.

Speaker 1:
[67:17] Think about when Amanda revealed that Ben actually wanted to fuck her in the pool in Italy, in a confessional that was filmed two months ago.

Speaker 2:
[67:24] Well, exactly.

Speaker 1:
[67:25] When she was already serious with West, serious, quote unquote. That gave her the sort of chutzpah to go there.

Speaker 2:
[67:34] Well, you sense that defiance there. Her attitude is completely shifted from what we saw over the summer.

Speaker 1:
[67:40] Completely.

Speaker 3:
[67:41] Men do want me. I am desirable.

Speaker 1:
[67:43] Yes. We've talked about the friendship aspect of this, but I think one of the things that stood out to me about the last conversation of the episode between Sierra and West was, when Sierra was like, I don't mean to be a dead horse basically, but the exact wording that you used in that interview with the New York Times was we aren't each other's people. He basically disregarded her completely. She was like, well, what really hurt was that you were really my best friend. I don't throw that term around. I really valued you not as a romantic partner, but as a confidant and somebody who I just got along with and we saw each other and I think to hear her call that out specifically was really important because up until now, it's just been this you went to The New York Times and you did a whole interview against me. For her to pull a specific passage out essentially, and it honestly flips the way that I was thinking about why she feels so hurt. Because I think one of the questions, when these things happen, as I'm sure you guys are very well aware of, there's always a contingency of people that pop up, that sort of want to be devil's advocate and they want to have the unpopular opinion and I think one of the most common questions that I hear or see written out a lot is like, why is Ciara still upset about this two years later? She doesn't own him. This was like a six month situationship. Why does she still care and why she's still so upset about this thing with Wes? It's pathetic. But losing a friend, particularly when you're in this kind of situation, who very few people understand what that's like. We don't understand. We've never gone on a reality show and then done this and been vulnerable in that way. It's very rare to find that. I think that what they had was, they clearly had a really good connection. That's undeniable. And so I think that is why she lost. Losing a best friend is almost harder than losing a best friend.

Speaker 2:
[69:43] And then feeling like everything about that connection was disregarded and dismissed. And something that we, in such a public forum, in the paper of fucking record, like that would really, really, really hurt. And yeah. And I think something that we've heard her say repeatedly is that she does not feel seen by people and specifically by West. And so to be almost like erased in the New York Times so overtly, like that must be a real, real mind fuck. And also people forget that like she's not had any space from this man since they broke up. Like the reunion films and then they go back into filming the next season and then they have to like rewatch, film the confessionals for the season. Like this never ends. They're constantly in a cycle of reliving moments from recent history.

Speaker 3:
[70:40] Yeah. It actually really reminds me of, in a different way, like my college relationship. Because we were just young and stupid and we would break up. And I would be like, but you're my best friend. Like we have to stay friends. Like we would try to stay close. It would be torture. Like I would never move on. We would try to get back together. It wouldn't work. Like we try to stay close. I was like, I can't like just like not know you. We were kept together because we were too young to understand that like we really needed space. Sierra's kept together with this guy by the structure of their jobs. Like she can't get away from him and they can't even like keep it all business. Part of their job is being friends and like having social interactions. And so it's creating a situation where everyone's like yelling at her to move on, but she can't do the one thing that you have to do to move on from a relationship like this. I can't imagine like being in that situation and knowing that like short of one of you losing your job, like you're gonna have to just like be in a room with this person that you loved and who didn't say like, oh, well, I wasn't ready for a relationship. We were in different places. Like, he was like, I got to know her whole person and it just wasn't for me. And then he said that in your time.

Speaker 1:
[71:53] Yeah. And also, reminder, and I just remembered this, part of his argument was we were not communicating. She was filming the fucking traitors where you don't have your phone at this time.

Speaker 2:
[72:08] Right. Oh my God. I never put that part of the timeline together.

Speaker 3:
[72:12] I bet West did not put that together either. He's just like, all I know is he's not being very responsive to me.

Speaker 1:
[72:19] Isn't that what it was? They filmed the reunion.

Speaker 2:
[72:21] No, I think you're right.

Speaker 1:
[72:22] He does the interview, she comes back, she sees the interview, they start filming the show.

Speaker 2:
[72:26] Yes. No, that's 100 percent right.

Speaker 1:
[72:28] You weren't communicating because she was in Scotland without access to her phone for a month.

Speaker 2:
[72:32] She was with Alan Cumming, okay?

Speaker 1:
[72:35] Yes, exactly. I'm just realizing that. Then that's when she apologized to him. When she had to apologize to him, I literally felt sick to my stomach. I mean, I guess good for her, but I don't criticize her for apologizing to him. Because I think that she viewed that as like she had to give him something for him to see anything because it's about all about him all the time. But I was just like, I just wish she didn't have to do this.

Speaker 2:
[73:00] You're like, this man does not deserve an apology.

Speaker 1:
[73:02] He doesn't.

Speaker 3:
[73:03] I'm like, what's the apology for that she wasn't taking enough emotional care of him during this time? That's not her job, actually. She has nothing to apologize for. And then the idea that he was entitled to go say whatever if she was not going to respond to his texts, that's not how...

Speaker 1:
[73:23] This is the Catch-22 that you're talking about. It's like she is expected to look after his emotions in this situation when they're not even together anymore. But then also she's criticized for still caring about it herself. You know, it's like both ways, like...

Speaker 3:
[73:40] Right. And like she has to care for his emotions, but if he's expected to consider her emotions, that's somehow scary or mean or unfair of her to do to him.

Speaker 2:
[73:51] In a sense, I'm like, is this the one kind of situation that could have freed her from him? Like what he has done now is so egregious and people are so unambiguously on her side that it's like, great, trim the fat from your life.

Speaker 1:
[74:07] That's a really good point, Emma, because if this Amanda thing hadn't happened, none of them were supposed to be on In the City yet. Amanda was. So it would have gone forward as Jesse, Sierra and Wes are the big three of Summer House still. They would have lived on the same house again. Even if they weren't actively hooking up now or whatever, they get thrown back into the house and it becomes Claire's college relationship where it's like you kind of get back into the cycle of things and I think you're right. This had to happen to break the cycle, I guess, of their weird, undefinable relationship.

Speaker 2:
[74:47] Also, it's like, okay, it's unambiguous now. West sucks.

Speaker 1:
[74:50] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[74:51] I think it was an open question.

Speaker 1:
[74:53] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[74:54] Now it's not.

Speaker 3:
[74:54] It was bad enough that she was really mad at him and everyone was on her side, but it wasn't so bad that she had unambiguous proof that he was a bad person. She was just like, you know, what you did really hurt me and it didn't respect the meaningful relationship that we had, but you're a good person. And now it's like only a bad person would do these things. Right. So I guess that person wasn't real.

Speaker 1:
[75:18] My last question for you guys about Summer House, do you guys think that if the Amanda and West situation wasn't happening right now, that we'd be watching these apology scenes, the three that we got this week, and we're saying he's making all that himself and centering himself and this, that, and the other. Would we be reading it that same way?

Speaker 3:
[75:42] I do think a lot of the show is getting read so differently because of this, but I think a lot of that to me has to do with Amanda. Like I have definitely seen people picking up on things like, Amanda, instead of congratulating Sierra on her mother's house, she brought up how she doesn't have a house yet. I'm like, oh, well, no, she said congratulations and she was so happy for her. And then later when everyone else was talking about their houses, then she made it, like, you know, we're now reading that through the lens of Amanda doesn't care about Sierra, which I understand. But like, we're doing a lot of that with Amanda scenes, sometimes fairly, sometimes not. With West, I feel like these are so egregious. Like, how could you think this was a good apology?

Speaker 1:
[76:21] I'd hope so. I'd hope that we would still think this.

Speaker 3:
[76:23] I hope so.

Speaker 1:
[76:23] I just wonder what you guys think.

Speaker 2:
[76:25] Yeah, no, I think there would still be criticism. I think there would still be people being like, why is he making this all about himself? On the other hand, I still think it would be really easy to fall into rooting for these two to get back together because they have such a compelling dynamic, because we all love Sierra so much and just want to see her seen and cared for and get the thing that she wants. I'm sure there would be a lot more generosity read into the intentions because we want Sierra to be happy.

Speaker 1:
[77:00] Yeah. I was shipping them for the first half of the season.

Speaker 2:
[77:02] Me too. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[77:03] That's what we were seeing. We were framed to root for them. That's it for the Summer House. Do you have any lingering thoughts about this? I mean, there's obviously a lot. We could probably go for five hours, but I feel like this episode was another doozy and I think we've turned over most of those stones.

Speaker 3:
[77:18] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[77:20] Okay. All right. Let's go over to The Valley, which in some ways, I guess you could argue is like, maybe send me a preview of what In The City could look like in two or three years, because In The City is going to be our East Coast version of The Valley, essentially. How are you feeling with the season overall? I haven't really discussed it much on the podcast yet, so you can go back to any of the episodes. What stands out to you?

Speaker 2:
[77:45] Claire and I have mostly been hyper focused on Luke and Danny having just absolutely egregious responses to their partners' postpartum periods.

Speaker 3:
[78:01] Listen, someone has to be of service, because I can tell you who is not being of service, Luke and Danny.

Speaker 1:
[78:07] Certainly not.

Speaker 2:
[78:09] I couldn't believe that these last two episodes, because when we recorded about this, I think just episodes one and two, I'm like, somehow he gets worse.

Speaker 1:
[78:19] Somehow, we're still beating up that horse. I'm like still.

Speaker 3:
[78:23] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[78:24] This past episode.

Speaker 1:
[78:26] He can't go fishing.

Speaker 2:
[78:27] I know. It's really hard for him. Kristen is such a bitch.

Speaker 1:
[78:30] He has to jack off. It's like, God, what a hard life.

Speaker 3:
[78:35] It's not allowed to be hard for him, when he's not able to go fishing as much as before. It's only allowed to be hard for Kristen.

Speaker 2:
[78:43] He's such a bitch for telling him to go out as late as he wants with the guys, and then just saying, can you please get it together to literally be awake in the morning to help with your child?

Speaker 1:
[78:55] Imagine that.

Speaker 2:
[78:56] What a cunt.

Speaker 1:
[78:58] Isn't the baby three months old?

Speaker 2:
[79:00] Three months old.

Speaker 1:
[79:02] Come on. It hasn't been that long, dude. It's not like we're talking about they haven't had sex for three years. You know what I mean? Like it's like.

Speaker 3:
[79:11] I'm sorry. After my first kid was born, I don't think I left the house without him more than two times for those first few months. And both times, it felt like I was an exposed nerve. Like it's just so bizarre to like, if you are, and not everyone has the same postpartum experience, but Kristin clearly is. She's like, we are one person. We're attached. Like when I'm away from her, I feel bad. And like the pressure that she is receiving to go back to being like Luke's fun, flirty fiance, who like goes on date nights and has sex with him is like so completely unrelated to the actual life experience she's having right now. I'm like, Luke, what is wrong with you? Like you're like, oh, I'm losing myself. And what you mean is I don't get to go fishing as much as I like. And Kristin is mean to me when I do still go out and drink with the boys. When she says she's losing herself, it means like I don't even recognize myself. Everything about my life is different. I feel alienated from my body. I can't spend my time the same way. She is deeply in the trenches. And he's just like, I've had to alter my life in a few ways. And like I shouldn't have to do that. That's, that's not fair.

Speaker 2:
[80:22] I should be allowed to be so hung over that I literally cannot do the one thing I promised you I would do after a night out.

Speaker 1:
[80:29] It's also like, does he know who he's talking to? Like this is Kristin Doherty we're talking about. Like, you know, like she, I'm sure she wants to be partying too. You know what I mean? Like I'm sure that's like something that she may miss about her old life. She wants to focus on the baby and herself and figuring this all out. Like he is like so, he's just so, he has no awareness at all. And like, just I can't even talk about it. Like it's just like, it's loser behavior.

Speaker 2:
[80:56] No, it like literally fills me with rage. It is such extreme loser behavior. And then we're seeing a bit less of Dani, but the fact that every time Nia expresses that she is like on the verge of a mental and physical breakdown, his response is to like make a joke at her and talk about how- Oh my God, that was so annoying. I was like, I wouldn't, I was like, I wouldn't murder this man if he was my partner. Like he is so obnoxious. The fact that she's like on the verge of tears talking about how she is so physically and emotionally burned out. He's like, well, you could like bang me more.

Speaker 1:
[81:35] Or you can let me have my morning workouts every day.

Speaker 3:
[81:38] He needs the morning workouts. He needs, I was like, you have four under four, Danny. Something's gotta get, he wants a fifth because.

Speaker 1:
[81:44] And you moved your wife to fucking Santa Clarita where she has no friends, no outlet.

Speaker 2:
[81:49] She seems miserable, to be honest.

Speaker 1:
[81:50] She's stuck in like, it's really bleak. And he to me is like the most sort of sinister person on this show. And I have thought that since the moment he yelled, he got drunk and yelled at her at that first dinner on the first cast ship of season one. When everyone told us to hate Janet and that was the vibe. Danny's always been on my radar and.

Speaker 2:
[82:15] I think I was too nice to him at first. Yeah, I was too forgiving to him season one.

Speaker 1:
[82:20] It's because of Nia though.

Speaker 3:
[82:21] It's because of Nia and it's because there were multiple other couples that were actually on the brink of divorce that you're like, well, at least we have one functional couple. Most of the time when he's not drunk.

Speaker 2:
[82:32] Right, it's also like when Jax is there.

Speaker 1:
[82:34] When he's not throwing spades of tequila in the pantry.

Speaker 2:
[82:37] Like when Jax is there literally being an abusive monster, like how can you think anyone else is that bad? Like everyone else pales in comparison. Then Jax leaves, you give Danny a little bit more room to breathe and suddenly you're like, this man is trash.

Speaker 1:
[82:52] And you know what one of the arguments is going with is that Jax tried to do a take down last season. This is the aftermath of that and the leftover crumbs that they're going with. And it's like, no, I really believe this based on what I've seen from you directly on this show. Actually, it's not because of what Jax tried to plant about you or whatever. It's not even what Janet and Jason are saying about you. It's really what I've seen. And that's why when Jason said all those things about him at the reunion, which Danny's taking such offense to being called a clown and a douche bag or whatever, that is like fucking child's play on reality TV.

Speaker 2:
[83:30] I was like, sir, you're at a Bravo reunion. You can't be called a clown.

Speaker 1:
[83:35] He's acting like he's acting like he like cursed his children. You know, it's like he it's like that was so like low level and like he's acting so like he can never move forward with Jason because he did this. And they're also trying to task Jason or like make him responsible for everything Janet has ever said and done.

Speaker 3:
[83:55] It's like, well, well, he should control his wife.

Speaker 1:
[83:58] Yeah. And he shouldn't defend her, right? Like he should never stand by her either. Like nobody else on the show ever really does. So it's such a maddening thing because I really do. Like, and it's not even that I like stand Janet. I just feel like from the beginning, like it was sort of we were as a viewership. And I understand why I sort of placed on the Kristin side of everything. And Kristin and Janet obviously season one, it was like, they went hard at each other. And I think 99% of the audience felt extremely team Kristin. Like I thought a lot of that too, but like I never thought that Janet was this evil person that everybody wanted us to believe she was. And I do feel like that was such an extreme first season for that it's essentially impossible for Janet to wait to sort of crawl back up from that hole that she had found herself in.

Speaker 2:
[84:44] And she's unfortunately really bad about it. Like bad at it. Like Claire and I have discussed this. Yes, yes, there's no favors. I also agree that I do not think Janet is some evil monster. And it's been a mixed bag for me with Janet. Like in some situations, I've been really on her side. In other situations, I've been like, Janet, you're- Come on, come on, let it go. Or like, you're playing this all wrong. But I think for me, seeing the way that she gave an apology to Jasmine and then immediately demanded her own apology, it was like moments like that I'm like, Janet, you're just a little misguided in trying to build back some of these relationships, and you're getting in your own way. That doesn't mean that you were technically wrong in everything you've said because she absolutely wasn't. Like, Danny did really, really fucked up things to Jasmine and Melissa. That is just the truth, and she was right about that. But she's just really bad at maneuvering her way through group dynamics.

Speaker 1:
[85:47] Well, I think that's, when you said technically, I think that's actually kind of like, she sees things very much in black and white. And it's like, and this is arguable, but I think even her saying on the boat, and they always flash back to her calling it sexual assault, a lot of them have a lot of issues with her using that terminology. You can classify like unwanted touching as that, right? Right, right, of course, but they don't, they view that as a much more extreme, as much more extreme language to use about what they view as like passing drunk behavior, you know, and like she was the one hanging on something that wasn't done to her, but she sees things as tech, in the technical and sort of definitive ways that they are, you know?

Speaker 2:
[86:28] The error there was not letting Jasmine and Melissa, yes, see at the forefront of defining their own experience and then absolutely taking cues from what they wanted to feel supported.

Speaker 3:
[86:40] But like, and I agree with that, and like Janet has made a lot of bad moves and selfish moves, but it is fascinating and I hope people can start to do this more as we're more removed from the emotions of being like Team Kristen and Team Nian, whatever, to step back and look at what actually happened that season, which is that Danny admittedly got blackout drunk, sexually assaulted, however, you want to downplay that, a woman in their group and then like said inappropriate things to their other friend, this woman's partner, and then was like, well, I'm sorry. And he thinks that that's enough. Other women in the group, Janet, at some points, Jasmine and Melissa were like, that's not quite enough. We'd love to see changes so that we feel safe. This won't happen again. We need some accountability. What you did was sexual assault. And this all got sort of somehow turned around on to villainizing women, including Jasmine and Melissa. At certain points, the audience really turned on them for wanting to re-litigate this. And I think that that partly also shaped this dynamic, where the more that there was blowback on them for bringing this up, the more that they didn't want it to be talked about quite understandably, and that's their place to say. But these women were absolutely villainized for pointing out that a man on the cast has a history of sexually assaulting women on the cast. That's just what happened. And everyone converged on villainizing the women in order to protect the man's reputation, because they think it's so bad that a man be accurately described as having sexually assaulted someone. And I think that's like a societal problem that we have seen over and over again. And it just played out exactly in this setting. And so it was like kind of maddening at times to be like, I agree. Why are we so fixated on what Janet did wrong? Which she, again, did wrong things. But like, everyone seems to be using that to avoid talking about Danny.

Speaker 1:
[88:37] It was misdirect. And she's just such an easy target like that for that.

Speaker 2:
[88:42] She is. Because again, she doesn't do herself any favors. So she's a very easy target. I do wonder if throughout this season, we're going to see things shift from like an audience perspective, just because I do feel like Danny is really coming off badly.

Speaker 1:
[89:00] And same with Luke. Luke and Danny are both coming off really badly.

Speaker 3:
[89:03] Really badly.

Speaker 1:
[89:05] It is also fascinating because I made a mistake of clicking on the hashtag The Valley on Twitter.

Speaker 2:
[89:11] Oh, no.

Speaker 3:
[89:12] Oh, God.

Speaker 1:
[89:12] People are so anti-Michelle, too. It's actually really fascinating. They like hate Michelle. And I listen, Jesse is incredibly charismatic. He's a good reality star. Like he's all those things. I actually really like Michelle, too. But like there are obviously things that both of them have done very wrong in their own situation. Like again, it's like the woman has been totally villainized in the online discourse around the disintegration of this relationship.

Speaker 2:
[89:41] Audiences are just, I think, always because of the patriarchy, going to be more generous with forgiving a man's ill than a woman's. And like we tend to see, it's like social crimes that women commit on these shows. And yet they are punished in the court of public opinion to the extent of like real crimes that men commit. And it's just the punishment in terms of reputation is not doled out equally. There are a lot of times that I find Michelle to be a very frustrating character. I find whatever dynamic she's getting into with Jasmine to be very off-putting. And maybe it's just that I really like Jasmine.

Speaker 1:
[90:27] I like Jasmine a lot.

Speaker 2:
[90:28] Yeah, I do. And we've followed her since her Bachelor days.

Speaker 3:
[90:33] Yeah. Hometown hero.

Speaker 2:
[90:35] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[90:35] And we'll talk about that in your podcast next week.

Speaker 3:
[90:37] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[90:38] Oh, yes. We're going to do a whole Bachelor Bravo crossover with Gibson next week on Love to See It. Very excited. But it doesn't mean Michelle is a bad person. It doesn't mean she's at fault for the issues in her relationship with Jesse. That's absurd.

Speaker 1:
[90:55] Also, I think Jesse takes pleasure in tormenting her. I think that he likes that.

Speaker 3:
[90:59] Well, and the things that he says to Michelle or spreads about her would be viewed as so criminal coming from Michelle. Every little manipulative thing or dig that she gives is used as evidence that she's the root of all the problems. But if he spreads a rumor that she's a hooker, it's like, oh, but he's such a nice, fun guy. I think she just brings this out of him because she's the devil. I'm like, I don't think you could bring that out of me with anything. I don't know what you're talking about.

Speaker 1:
[91:30] It's also like she's literally like, he has the divorce papers to sign them, and I want him to sign them so badly, he is drawing this out for whatever reason. When he's asked about why he hasn't signed them, he's like, oh, it just hasn't happened. There's no actual explanation.

Speaker 3:
[91:47] He's not going to sign them until he's managed to get himself ensconced in his girlfriend's much nicer home. He's already like, when can I move in? He hasn't signed his divorce papers.

Speaker 1:
[91:58] What's your reliance with the Lacey thing? Because we saw the footage from the end of last season that we had not seen before, where she showed up to the finale party when she wasn't supposed to be there. She had been sending Cease and Desist to the cast.

Speaker 3:
[92:09] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[92:10] But again, but Janet and Michelle are villainized for pointing that out.

Speaker 3:
[92:17] Well, that's the thing. I think people have responded very well to her, and I get it. On the show, she has been nothing but normal and lovely except that she's dating Jesse. She also has a bit of a flat monotone similar to Michelle, actually, which sometimes I like because it makes them seem less like they are cast. She just showed up. She's not a real reality star. But Michelle's thing is she knows how to act this way in the right setting and get everyone on her side. But then behind the scenes, she's doing manipulative stuff. And I believe that that is quite plausible based on the scenes. So I get Michelle's frustration.

Speaker 1:
[93:01] Are you guys enjoying Lala and Schwartz? How do you feel?

Speaker 3:
[93:06] I'm kind of over Schwartz's whole Peter Pan thing. I'm like, people, when Michelle kept being like, he's just a big kid, he's a teddy bear. I'm like, this man is in his mid-40s. What is going on?

Speaker 2:
[93:17] You just know that Katie is like, thank fucking God.

Speaker 1:
[93:22] I'm not on Stassi's show now. She's going to be on Stassi's.

Speaker 2:
[93:25] I know. She's like, I'm thriving away from this man. They can now have a nice friendship because she has to take no responsibility for him. I mean, Schwartz and Lala are generally compelling reality stars. There's a reason we watched them on Vanderpump Rules for so long and they were integral to that cast. I don't know that The Valley needed them. I don't mind that they're there necessarily, but I'm also like, the Valley cast has been, in my mind, super successful in their own right. We had enough bridges from Vanderpump Rules in Kristen and Brittany and Jax at the beginning. Now I'm like, I see why they brought them on, but have they added anything so central?

Speaker 3:
[94:15] Lala doesn't have any storylines of her own, really. And Schwartz is our fake. Our fake, like I'm sorry. It was always clear that he was not actually going to date Michelle.

Speaker 1:
[94:27] And that's sort of why I'm like, I generally like I'm fine with them being there. I don't really feel like either way. I do think that Lala, even though she doesn't have any of her own storylines, I think she adds like not harsh perspective, but pretty like blunt perspective on things that I think like sometimes Brittany has to hear it that way, sometimes somebody has to hear it that way. So even if that's the role she plays, I'm down for her to be a quasi friend of in that role.

Speaker 2:
[94:55] Yeah, I think it's fine.

Speaker 3:
[94:57] I do feel like no matter how blunt you are with Brittany, she will never actually, it actually doesn't matter how you do it.

Speaker 2:
[95:03] Oh my God, watching that brunch with her, Kristen and Jasmine, where they're both just like, oh, Brittany.

Speaker 1:
[95:12] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[95:13] Don't do it, girl.

Speaker 1:
[95:15] That guy is such a red flag. I mean, thank God they're not together right now, but that man, woof.

Speaker 2:
[95:21] I just think sometimes these women who get out of these awful relationships just need a solid two years single.

Speaker 1:
[95:30] Totally.

Speaker 3:
[95:31] I think that it's most successful when we see these relationships, that they are pretty much off-camera. Like, why does this guy need to come get in the drama when you just started dating? Do we really want that again?

Speaker 1:
[95:48] No, we don't. We certainly don't. Brittany does. No. The last thing I want to say about Lala is that in interviews, she's been asked about Sheena and she basically says, I have no comment on that person. I'm like, my read on that, the more she does that, the more that producers and people are going to be like, well, let's explore that again. You know what I mean? They're going to be like, because I know for a fact they wanted Sheena on this season.

Speaker 2:
[96:16] Didn't she film?

Speaker 1:
[96:18] She didn't film.

Speaker 2:
[96:19] She didn't film.

Speaker 1:
[96:20] But her and Lacey are not friends. I think that was maybe part of the desire for this season. Sheena decided not to do it. She was not fired, she decided not to do it. And so I'm just curious if this sort of stonewalling from Lala will have an adverse effect.

Speaker 2:
[96:46] I mean, that would be a good way to get Lala in the mix. Like, great, bring Sheena on, let's explore it. Because those two were thick as thieves, best, best, best friends, their families were so intertwined. So you are right that like, she's making it an open question for the audience and production.

Speaker 1:
[97:06] Claire and Emma, I kept you long, but we had a lot to talk about. So I really appreciate you being so generous with your time.

Speaker 2:
[97:12] Oh my God, always, just like a pure pleasure.

Speaker 1:
[97:15] I will be on Love to See It with you guys recording next week, but do all the plugs before we find out, because I know you guys have a lot going on together.

Speaker 3:
[97:23] Yeah, so we are at Love to See It with Emma and Claire. You can find that wherever podcasts are purveyed. We cover reality TV, and then we also have a Patreon rich text, which is a weekly newsletter and also a weekly paywalled podcast. And we dig into other reality TV topics, scripted TV, books, all kinds of things. So you can find that at patreon.com/richtext.

Speaker 1:
[97:51] And I feel like every time I talk to either of you on on mic, I always say this, but the newsletter is fantastic. I live by the recommendations every single week, a weekly recommendation email. I get so many good ideas from it. It's fantastic, genuinely. So everyone go subscribe.

Speaker 2:
[98:06] Well, we love you. We love your show. You're so smart. You're like our go to on all things Bravo. So as we dive into this world more and more, we are we are grateful for your service.

Speaker 1:
[98:18] I'm so happy to get connected with you guys. This is fantastic. I learned so much from you. So thank you guys for coming on and we'll chat next week.

Speaker 2:
[98:25] Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[98:28] Thank you for listening to the show. Subscribe to Gabbing with Gib on any podcast platform to listen to new episodes, and subscribe to Gabbing with Gib on YouTube to watch full length versions of our interviews. We'd also love your support with a five-star review on Spotify or Apple podcasts. You can follow me at Gibsonoma on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok, and keep up with all things Gabbing with Gib at Gabbing with Gib on Instagram and TikTok. Gabbing with Gib is an independent podcast hosted by me, Gibson Johns. It's produced by myself and Reilley Dabbs. Graphics are by Rachel Roth and our cover art photography is by Troy Hallahan. If you want to reach out about guestbooking, sponsorship, or advertising opportunities, email us at gabbingwithgib at gmail.com. Thank you again for your support and see you next time.