transcript

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
[01:05] Welcome to The Ringer-Verse. This is, of course, The Ringer-Verse's next podcast feed for all things fandom. We are Steve, the architect, Ahlman, the builder, and Tigger of things. Jomi, the algorithm, Adeniran, you've got questions. He's got ways to trick you into doing what he wants you to do.

Speaker 3:
[01:20] Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Speaker 2:
[01:21] Old Man Van, he has the receding, resurgent hairline. Coke, Baby Chuck, the 24-carat closer. Together we are known as The Midnight Boys. All right, we'll be right back after this. All right, follow us on socials, at The Midnight Boys Pod on Insta and TikTok, at RingerVerse on Insta, Twitter, Facebook, and TikTok. Jomi.

Speaker 4:
[01:53] Guys, guys, guys, what are you doing? What are you, you're just moving your mouth? I thought you were gonna say something.

Speaker 2:
[02:01] I'm doing what I do.

Speaker 4:
[02:03] We're good, guys, the socials are going great. Thanks to everybody for following and subscribing. Like, we can get the numbers up, but I'm not mad at it, you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2:
[02:12] You're doing well.

Speaker 4:
[02:13] I'm trying, man, I'm trying.

Speaker 2:
[02:14] You're almost pleased.

Speaker 4:
[02:16] I'm almost pleased, but that's my problem. I can never be fully happy.

Speaker 5:
[02:20] That's good.

Speaker 2:
[02:21] You're trying to save the job, you're trying to elevate, that's the way you're supposed to be. I'm getting sequins all over my goddamn computer. I want you to like, comment, subscribe, share. You can watch every Midnight Boys and every House of R episode on youtube..com/atringerverse and also on Spotify. Programming reminders, next week, The Midnight Boys will be continuing their reactions to The Boys. The show is cooking right now, it's pretty good. As well as Budmash, they're giving their thoughts on Saros?

Speaker 5:
[02:45] Yep, Saros.

Speaker 2:
[02:46] What is that?

Speaker 5:
[02:47] That's a game from the people that made Returnal. It's like a bullet hell action shooter.

Speaker 2:
[02:52] That sounds sublime. And Invincible Versus, what is this?

Speaker 5:
[02:56] That's a fighting game with the Invincible characters.

Speaker 2:
[02:58] Is Thrag on there? Yeah. Is it Thrag or Throg?

Speaker 4:
[03:01] Thrag.

Speaker 2:
[03:01] It's Thrag?

Speaker 4:
[03:02] Grand Regent Thrag.

Speaker 2:
[03:03] Grand Regent Thrag, so he's the top guy. He's the top man, the big boss. On today's show, The Midnight Boys will be reacting...

Speaker 3:
[03:13] So embarrassing!

Speaker 6:
[03:14] Don't even start! Don't start! Don't start with him!

Speaker 2:
[03:18] The Midnight Boys will be reacting to the hotly anticipated music biopic, Michael. Story of the Life and Times. Why are you guys laughing?

Speaker 3:
[03:33] Why are we laughing? You was laughing at the screening!

Speaker 2:
[03:40] Of the world's most famous singer ever. Michael Jackson.

Speaker 4:
[03:47] Are we gonna do a spoiler alert? Is there a midnight manifest coming for Michael Jackson?

Speaker 3:
[03:52] Is he like an idiot making a midnight manifest for this? Cause he was just like, and then he released the thriller.

Speaker 2:
[04:03] Okay guys, do you have a manifest first of all?

Speaker 3:
[04:06] I do, I do.

Speaker 2:
[04:07] Okay, well let's get to the manifest. Actually, we're gonna spoil Michael. I'm just convoluted. So give me the spoiler warning first.

Speaker 4:
[04:17] Spoiler warning for all things Michael, the comic books, the television shows.

Speaker 5:
[04:21] All IP related to Michael Jackson.

Speaker 3:
[04:23] The EO, one of my favorite rides.

Speaker 2:
[04:25] Ghost, The Wiz, All Mike.

Speaker 4:
[04:29] No, no, no, wait. Is it All Mike or Everything just up till 1988?

Speaker 2:
[04:32] I mean, we're gonna talk about Michael Jackson. Who knows what we'll talk about? So this is a spoiler for Mike.

Speaker 4:
[04:36] Oh boy. I don't understand why you would do that.

Speaker 3:
[04:38] Why do you never learn?

Speaker 4:
[04:39] We don't want to get the spoiler spoilers.

Speaker 2:
[04:41] We might spoil that bitch. You know what I mean? Like, all right, spoiler warning.

Speaker 6:
[04:48] We're getting ready to talk about Michael.

Speaker 2:
[04:51] You're listening to a reaction podcast. The spoilers are coming. All right, now we're on the other side of the spoiler warning. The movie itself, we have to talk about. So we'll do a Midnight Manifest chart.

Speaker 3:
[05:10] All right, there's your Midnight Manifest for Michael, directed by Antoine Fuqua, written by John Logan, starring Jafar Jackson as Michael, Neil Long, Coleman Domingo, Miles Teller. Michael is an abridged biopic that documents the story of the Jackson family and its titular star through the bad era. We begin in 1967 as overbearing and abusive patriarch, Joe Jackson starts a boy band with his five sons. The Jackson Five embark on a tour of small gigs until they're signed to Motown Records. The label's president, Barry Gordy, realizes the potential in a young Michael, and soon the singer goes solo. The bulk of the film follows Michael's journey to emancipate himself from Joe and the family at large as he chases his solo career. Our film goes to great lengths to demonstrate that Michael's lawyer and manager, John Branca, bodyguard Bill Bray and the rest of the Jackson family were absolutely vital in turning this Gary singer into an icon. With the success of Off the Wall and Thriller, Jackson becomes the most famous and successful pop star on the planet. But tragedy strikes when Michael is badly burned at a rehearsal for the Jackson 5's Victory Tour. As the pop star heals, he finally takes power into his own hands. The movie ends with Michael standing on stage solo after the success of the album Bad. And as you can probably guess, our movie ends with the credits promising that Michael will return.

Speaker 4:
[06:18] His story continues.

Speaker 3:
[06:19] The story continues. So, Van, as the person on this podcast that has the most, probably lose, by being honest about this. As a leader of the black community.

Speaker 2:
[06:40] Leader of the black community.

Speaker 6:
[06:43] That's a surprise.

Speaker 5:
[06:45] That's how I introduce him to all my friends all the time. Leader of the black community.

Speaker 3:
[06:47] Van Lathan. Van, leader of the black community. Do you want to get us started? Should we talk about our instant reactions to the film? What the surrounding brouhaha around the film? Where do you want to go?

Speaker 2:
[06:59] Okay, this is where I'm going to start.

Speaker 3:
[07:01] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[07:03] In positivity.

Speaker 4:
[07:05] Oh. Oh, okay.

Speaker 2:
[07:06] Jafar Jackson, good. Not just good, maybe great.

Speaker 4:
[07:08] Really good.

Speaker 2:
[07:09] As Michael Jackson.

Speaker 4:
[07:10] Really good.

Speaker 3:
[07:11] Jermaine, Jermaine Sun.

Speaker 2:
[07:13] Jermaine Sun. Coleman Domingo. Believable portrayal of Joe Jackson. You know, if not, not very complex, but Coleman Domingo is a top flight performer. Nia Long. All of the requisite strength, vulnerability and reservation that the character of Catherine Jackson would have. Okay. Jafar Jackson as a performer on stage and live concert footage show, recreations or whatever, approximates Michael brilliantly and beautifully. Has what I would consider to be the spirit of Michael Jackson in his moves and stuff like that. Like, you know, you can tell that there's a cultural connection to him. He's like grown up watching his uncle all the time. He's seen people in his family dance like him. The Jackson family gene of talent is obviously in him.

Speaker 3:
[08:02] But I've read that Jafar practiced for two years to truly like embody, like he definitely did the method, went to go stay where Michael stayed, performed for the whole family, Billy Jean, before he got cast. It seemed like he definitely like committed.

Speaker 2:
[08:20] Committed himself to that.

Speaker 3:
[08:21] Committed, yes.

Speaker 2:
[08:21] That should be committed. Having said all of that, this movie is some bullshit. That's it. And look, and here's the deal. Why do I say that?

Speaker 5:
[08:32] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[08:33] Like why do I say that?

Speaker 5:
[08:35] Tell them why.

Speaker 2:
[08:35] Why do I say that? I say that because Michael Jackson is such a consequential cultural figure. He is such an intriguing, controversial, famous, inspirational, whatever adjective you want to throw out there to say, this guy matters in the story of American and world pop culture and art. All the way at the top. One of the top five. Top five most famous, top five most imitated. All of it. All of it. Across whatever. You can't even, there's not enough things you can say. So if there's to be a biopic that is going to come out, you would think that that biopic would give you some insight into the genius of Michael Jackson, the process of Michael Jackson, the challenges of Michael Jackson that are interrogated in a real way, and this movie just doesn't care about this. This movie treats Michael Jackson's story to me. With very little seriousness, investigation, and I'm not even talking about, let's just get out of the fucking way right now. I'm not even talking about some of the things that you might expect to see in a Michael Jackson biopic that might be a little bit more angering or destabilizing or hard for people to swallow, which is the fact that Michael Jackson, in the second half of his career, was accused by several young men of child molestation. That was breaking while I was still in middle school. It's a whole deal. They raided Neverland. Cool, he ended up being on trial for that. He beat it at the trial. There was the Finding Neverland documentary that came out where a couple of alleged victims of Michael Jackson went into great detail talking about their relationships with him and how he not only had sexual relationships with them but also had emotional relationships with them. One of the young men said that Michael Jackson put a ring on his finger. All of that stuff. You don't expect a movie that's made by his family to interrogate that stuff because they're just not going to want to get into it. Apparently, some of it was in there. They went back and they re-shyled it.

Speaker 3:
[10:46] Just for the audience.

Speaker 2:
[10:48] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[10:50] Because I want to be fair, this is a reporting that's been out there. So this is from the Wall Street Journal, quote, The final third of the movie dealt with a 1993 lawsuit filed on behalf of a 13-year-old boy who alleged that the pop star had molested him, which Jackson denied. But Jackson's estate belatedly realized the settlement he had signed with the boy's family forbade it from being used for his story for commercial purposes. King and Fuqua retooled the entire third act. Originally, the movie from the reporting that I read was three hours. This got shortened to two. Then Variety reported that the film started in media res originally, with Jackson staring at a mirror as investigators searched his house after accusations of child molestation. From the reporting from various sources, it seemed like the movie when it was originally written and pitched was supposed and filmed was supposed to get into this. We were supposed to get one Michael Jackson movie.

Speaker 2:
[11:44] OK. Fair enough.

Speaker 4:
[11:47] We've admitted that.

Speaker 2:
[11:48] Let's say you don't do that. Let's say you go, you know what, we're not going to do that. Already, that's not the type of biopic I like. These people are, they hold so much space in culture, whether it be Ray, whether it be whomever, that I like biopics that go throughout the ups and downs of their life and talk about things that are flattering to them and unflattering, right? But let's say you're not going to do that. Let's say you're going to do the glossy, sanitized version of it. You still have to be serious about the genius of Michael Jackson, which this movie is not. And that's it. And it's not an anti-black sentiment. It's not necessarily an anti-Michael Jackson sentiment. It's not an anti-movie sentiment. It's not anyone that's trying to take the air out of this. This thing that's going on on Twitter is fucking mind-boggling to me. It's mind-boggling to me. We're having a conversation not even about Michael Jackson. We're not having a conversation about the Jackson family. We're having a conversation about a movie about Michael Jackson, a movie made by top flight creatives that are like something less than deities, meaning they can miss too. And I'm sorry, but this movie fucking missed.

Speaker 3:
[13:05] I'll be real, I don't give a who gets mad. I think this movie is abhorrent and creatively bankrupt. And I'll start with the creatively bankrupt part. As someone who loves music, got my start writing about music, grew up on Michael Jackson, I think one of the things that made me most sad watching this is I'm like, this movie, I don't know if it's uninterested in really uncovering what made Michael Jackson such a genius. Where it's like, we go so fast through off the wall thriller, all of these just monumental moments that I'm like, wait, maybe as a culture, we don't know how to contextualize. This was a black man that was dancing in ways that no one had ever seen before, who was making videos like thriller, completely upending the entire music industry. What we envisioned just music as an art form and product can be. Everything from the way he dressed, to the way he sang, to the melodies. It was like watching this movie, I'm like, hey, even if you're going to do the sanitized version of this, why do all of the creatives seem so uninterested in spending time in the most interesting place with Michael Jackson, which is just like there was never before, and we probably never will see someone who is that gifted. It was like when I was watching, this says so much about the movie, the funniest part and the best part of him making thriller in this movie was watching CGI Bubbles bob his head in the studio. And I was just like, what the fuck are we doing? Like, what the fuck, what is happening?

Speaker 4:
[14:55] Nah, it felt like state propaganda.

Speaker 5:
[14:59] Yes, for certain characters in particular.

Speaker 4:
[15:02] Well, I mean, the Michael stuff, there's a scene, and we talked about this like immediately after, where you're doing the thriller music video, right? And Michael goes up to whoever is like, hey man, can you tell John, we gotta see the feet? You know, we gotta see the feet. And it's like, so John Landis, who like, he's got his own issues, but in that moment in time, the hottest directors in Hollywood was the man, and Michael's like, yo, we got this, here's how we're gonna shoot the music video? Like, it just, the whole thing, just kinda like, I don't know, I'm trying to be nice and kind, because, you know, it's like, family worked on it, there are some good stuff about it, but it just felt like it would, if, you know what it felt like to me? It felt like the last dance of music documentaries, where it's Michael Jordan just getting his stuff off, like, yeah, I was the man, every single person is in there, he was the man, he was great, he was this, he was that, nobody's pushing back on that, nobody's arguing about that, and you're sitting there, you're watching, you go from three scenes, music video, three scenes, music video. Even Colby Domingo, who's trying his best with the script that, for me, just felt completely flat, is doing his, at most, he's mildly inconveniencing Michael Jackson.

Speaker 2:
[16:21] Can I tell you something? There are two things about The Last Dance that make The Last Dance, to me, a good documentary. Two things about The Last, everything you just said is true, but there are two things about The Last Dance that make a really great documentary. Two things that are just brutally real about The Last Dance. The footage and Michael Jordan. When you watch The Last Dance, which is a documentary basically with Jordan's blessing, there are things that are left out, questions that you have, Jordan's family's not in it very much, you know that there are probably some snafu's or considerations there to be made, but whatever. But when you watch Michael, he is, you know that he believes everything that he's saying. He believes everything that he's saying. Michael Jordan is not trying to give the glossiest version of himself. He actually cries. He goes, all of the things that you guys are going to look at and like have a problem with me about, he was like, I was a winner. And did you ever win anything? And when I watched that, I went, huh, here's a guy that's looking back on his life as he makes this documentary and really wrestling with what everything cost him. His fingers are mangled up when he holds his finger up. You can see the game on him. Michael seems, he's smoking cigars, he's drinking. Like, he is isolated by all of his greatness. And that comes across in The Last Dance, along with the footage of Mike Everywhere, which kind of show him in ways that he, you know, he's controlling what footage is getting out. But at least there's a tinge of reality to it. And Michael Jordan is, like, at that particular point in his life was, I guess, so used to being heralded as a Greek god that he couldn't help but come across a little bit like a dick, right? And so that makes that real. This movie, the number one thing, this is almost, people talk about a cash grab. This movie is like a culture grab. It seeks to deify Michael Jackson in a way that makes you think the movie is apologizing for Michael Jackson. He gets burnt, right? We know that Michael Jackson died of a drug overdose, right? We know that he died of being administered a propofol, right? He gets burned. And when he gets burned, they're talking about the fact that he's going to need pain medication. He says, I don't want to take medication. Subtext there. Everything that happened to Michael later on wasn't his fault.

Speaker 4:
[18:46] Yeah. Right?

Speaker 2:
[18:47] That is the movie which is almost apologizing for what we think about Michael Jackson or trying to correct it, and not actually concerned with the reason why we can't let Michael Jackson go. And the reason why we can't let Michael Jackson go is because he was so fucking good that he stirred something inside of us that we don't know how to contend with. We want to be happy. We want to go out and have emotion. And there are only a couple of motherfuckers that are able to make us feel that way. And this guy was able to do it better than anybody else. And we have a complicated relationship with him. And that's just the fucking truth of it. And when I was in the movie watching it, I was like, why don't they take the conflict in me about him as serious as I take it? Why are you talking down to me? I feel that serious about what this movie does and how this film misses.

Speaker 3:
[19:38] So going off what you just said, watching this movie, you can feel, especially the Jackson family, Branca, all of the executive producers over it, because there was multiple points where it's like a bullet point presentation that a family would do for a son, where they're like, Joe Jackson is abusive in this film, but it goes out of its way to almost apologize and be like, but he was still a great man. When Michael is looking at Peter Pan or going to toy stores, it's showing you, but Michael's connection with children was genuine. It's all of y'all that made it into something sinister. When he's going to get his first procedure for the nose, it's like, but see every... The doctor's like, you are so beautiful. I think the cynical part of this, instead of treating Michael Jackson like a nuanced figure, where some of this was in this movie where it was like, oh, you guys are almost struggling to tell the story of what happens when a black family finally reaches the American dream and gets everything they want, and how does it come undone? Instead of telling that story, which they get very close to, they're just like, actually, it was never Michael's fault. And Michael was just like, look at how much he was actually doing great. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. We all know Michael Jackson did a bunch of great shit. He can also be a monster. Like it's, and I know a biopic is never going to tell that story, but personally, as a viewer, I felt, I felt manipulated.

Speaker 6:
[21:21] Well, because we know what happens.

Speaker 5:
[21:23] Yeah, and it's the fact that like, I was aware of the fact that it was going to gloss over pretty much all of the myriad of controversies that he had throughout his life and career. I feel like the artistic responsibility of making a biopic about Michael Jackson, even in the short term, is at least learning some sort of insight into what artistically is going on in his mind. Knowing that this is essentially a Jackson family co-pro, that the majority of the family is signing off on, to at least usher that in with some sort of familial insight into who he was as a person, without any real concern about what that looks like to his fans or to the public in general. It's a selfish move, but also it's the thing that a family actually can't do. You can't have that level of bias and insight into somebody and make a film like the ones that we're trying to.

Speaker 3:
[22:16] They're protecting the estate. That is the whole thing. Because even when the Jackson family, the whole estate, Michael Jackson was not making that much money. And since then, with the Michael Jackson music, you could read all about this, the Michael Jackson musical, the rights to his music, he has become a big business. And you can feel in this movie, you're like, oh, this is just another rung in almost trying to recontextualize Michael Jackson and almost sanitize him in a way where it's like, oh, as a culture, we have decided that we accept Michael Jackson. We accept it. We're still gonna listen to his music. And this movie goes a long way to be... It almost feels like the cherry on top of a very... A very evil thing that we still as a society don't want to...

Speaker 5:
[23:05] Do you feel like there's a level of criticism and shame that comes with people questioning that narrative nowadays? That like there's like an utterance of like, okay, well, if you highlight like the monstrous things that Michael was accused of or did, that there's a level of like, oh, we don't need to hear about that.

Speaker 3:
[23:23] I actually think what's happening now, the nuance of it is that I think because I know, because black people in this country have so few heroes and stars that make it to that level, that make it to the level of like, what's beyond, of Michael Jackson, of Bill Cosby, of Diddy. When those men are brought down, there is the impetus to be like, wait, so why when they're white, da-da-da-da-da, why are you tearing down our heroes? And I'm like, hey, yo, two things can be true. Someone can do something great, and they could have been a monster while they were doing it. I get, like, I emotionally maybe get the pushback. I still feel like it is a very hollow, intellectually devoid conversation, generally.

Speaker 2:
[24:19] I wouldn't be real if I wasn't saying this, and I've always been shocked about this. Not shocked, I've always been surprised about this. So I worked at TMZ for a long time. I said this on Bill's podcast. I'll say it again. I'll probably say it on Higher Learning, too. There are a lot of people that have looked directly into all of the stuff surrounding Michael Jackson and straight up think that none of it was true, in a sincere way. Like there is, and I have to say this, there are people that I worked with at TMZ that, like the news director at TMZ, that went through, because as Michael was, I don't think that case was going on while TMZ was going on. It might have been going on while Celebrity Justice was going on, which shows you.

Speaker 5:
[24:59] His second case or the?

Speaker 2:
[25:01] Talking about just all of the stuff, because there are FBI files on Michael Jackson as well. And look at all of this stuff, and I remember I made a joke on the show one day, and this is a white boy from Orange County, pulled me to the side and said, I don't think Michael did it. And I was like, which part of it? He said, none of it. Like, I don't think that he did it. Like, I'm serious. And like, he was like, the reason why Michael beat it in court, like, how familiar are you with the court case? And I was like, I'm familiar in the court case in terms of the bra shows. He's like, if you get familiar with the details of the court case, and with some of the other stuff that was going on, he's like, this is before Finding Neverland. I should say this, this is before Finding Neverland. But like, he's like, I don't think that Michael Jackson actually did this. And there are a number of people who I've talked to who aren't the people that you grew up with and stuff like that, that know a lot about this and have looked into this, that like, don't, that like, feel like there is enough to say that this stuff did not happen. Now, that is, in a way, an incredibly controversial thing to say, particularly with the cultural conversation that we've had about victims, allegations, believing victims, and particularly believing victims like this, that are child victims in a situation like this. Secondly, there are all kinds of things that you can look at and be like, Michael hanging around with young children and all of that stuff, why do you do that? What's going on? Was there some sort of pathology there? Like, what was happening, right? All of that's true. What I am saying about this particular thing is this. Let's say you go, we can't do that. You're gonna make the Ray Charles movie, you're gonna put some drugs in it. You're gonna make the Dr. King movie, you're not gonna ever show Dr. King stepping out on career. You're gonna do that. You know what I wanna know? I wanna know how difficult it was for Dr. King to come up with the I Have a Dream speech. I wanna know what Dr. King was going through when he was on the road. I wanna see what he overcame. I wanna see an actual story about the genius and the sacrifice of this once in history cultural figure. Y'all, the movie don't do that. It's a scene in the fucking movie where they get bubbles for the first time.

Speaker 3:
[27:17] Wait, can we talk about the bubble scene?

Speaker 2:
[27:19] And I'm like, yo, could we have taken the bubble scene out maybe and spent a little extra time or Mike in the studio with Quizzy Jones making the greatest album in music history?

Speaker 4:
[27:32] Andy Serkis needs work, man. I don't know what's up.

Speaker 5:
[27:35] The creation of Thriller was boiled down to moving post-it notes around on a cork.

Speaker 3:
[27:39] There is a point in this movie, and it is so funny. Cause I'm just like, yo, it commits every music biopic, Sid, where Michael is writing out, mama say mama say mama say mama say mama say mama say, and he's writing it on a post-it note and then puts it up on the wall. It goes, hmm. And I was just like, hey, y'all, am I an asshole?

Speaker 2:
[28:02] What is mama say mama say mama say mama say? What is that?

Speaker 5:
[28:04] Does anybody know what it means?

Speaker 2:
[28:05] No, like you should know this.

Speaker 4:
[28:07] I want to, I'm not 100% sure, but it's supposed to be so-

Speaker 2:
[28:11] It's like a chant. It's an African, okay, why? Why that thing?

Speaker 5:
[28:15] Yeah, what intrigued you about this, Michael?

Speaker 2:
[28:18] Know what we know? We know that Michael Jackson had a deep, deep cultural curiosity. Everywhere Michael went, whatever dances they was doing, Michael was on top of it, they showed a little bit. However the singing was, if you could do something awesome, Michael would give you the opportunity to do that awesome thing. He would incorporate it into what he was doing. Full of influences and was able to perfect all of them and translate them through his talent in a way that almost nobody could do before and nobody has done since. It's just not in there.

Speaker 3:
[28:53] I will say, to me, one of the most interesting parts, I'm like, yo, if you actually wanted to do a Michael Jackson movie, I'm like, this movie shouldn't have been Cradle to the Grave. You could have just done Off the Wall, you could have done Thriller.

Speaker 5:
[29:06] Any of those albums, you could have made an entire movie about.

Speaker 3:
[29:10] One of my favorite parts in the film where I was like, oh, I wish y'all would have spent more time on this. Michael is trying to brainstorm. When he makes Thriller, he's like, I want to make one of the greatest albums of all time. And he's struggling with what to call it. And it shows us in montage him watching all of these monster movies. And the subtext of that scene is like, oh, this is someone who feels ugly on the inside. What he sees, and it's kind of like connecting the plastic surgery, some of the Neverland stuff, all of the, like, and just his love of horror movies. And you're like, oh, this is really fascinating. And they blow past it. One of the funniest-

Speaker 4:
[29:50] Five minute segment, five minute segment.

Speaker 3:
[29:52] This is a real line where, I'm almost positive this is a real line, because I read an interview once, where Michael's like sitting in the pool, like he's lounging in the pool, and he's like, yo, I gotta concentrate. If I don't listen to God sending me this music, he'll give it to Prince. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. That's great. That's interesting. That is interesting. That's 30 minutes. I'm like, his relationship with Prince and how much those two black artists hated each other. There was respect there, but they hated each other.

Speaker 2:
[30:20] On Thriller, do you guys remember the disclaimer that comes in front of the Thriller video?

Speaker 5:
[30:26] I vaguely remember it.

Speaker 2:
[30:28] So in front of the Thriller video, Michael goes out of his way, or the makers of Thriller go out of their way, to say that this video in no way reflects a belief in the occult.

Speaker 5:
[30:39] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[30:40] Right, that this video don't mean that I'm a fucking devil worshiper.

Speaker 5:
[30:43] Yeah, right.

Speaker 2:
[30:44] Right, this video don't mean that I run out and worship Bathomet or something like that.

Speaker 5:
[30:48] Said like a devout Jehovah's Witness.

Speaker 2:
[30:49] Or go to Bohemian Grove and all of that fucking shit. Like this don't mean that. That's on there because Mike and his family were Jehovah's Witnesses. And to represent something like that in a music video was insanely daring for him to do. Coming from that tradition. These are things that I know about Michael Jackson. This is stuff that I understand about Michael Jackson. That the Thriller video was rebellious, not just because he put Vincent Price, who I used to be fucking afraid of, into the music video and all of that stuff, and because they're doing all of that stuff. It was rebellious because it flew in the face of his family tradition, and it was a swing. It was a real swing. Michael Jackson was daring. Michael Jackson was a disruptor in many, many different ways, right? Michael Jackson learned the moonwalk from other people around LA he saw doing the dance, and then he brought the moonwalk to the world. All of these scenes are so important in creating this man who's become more than a man to a mythical figure, and the movie just, I don't know.

Speaker 4:
[31:59] I'm gonna throw it right back to you because you had a moment in the theater that you literally yelled about afterwards, where you can go on Wikipedia and do a cursory read of Michael Jackson's ass boy and his life and everything, and the one thing that shocked you, it shocked me, and I'm sure it shocked you guys, was when he's like, I need new resuscitation, and he goes to the room.

Speaker 5:
[32:20] Oh my God.

Speaker 4:
[32:21] And he's like, Miles Teller.

Speaker 5:
[32:24] This is the actual biopic that happened right now.

Speaker 4:
[32:27] And I'm sitting there like, who are you? I'm like, OK, this guy must be the most supported person.

Speaker 3:
[32:35] The camera zooms in on Miles Teller, like it is Jesus coming up from on high being like, I discovered Michael Jackson.

Speaker 4:
[32:43] This must be the most supported person of Michael's life. This person literally changed the film, because when Bill shows up, he's like, oh, here's your guy.

Speaker 3:
[32:52] He's a security guard.

Speaker 4:
[32:53] Bill's in the movie the whole time. Everything else, everything that's put around Mike is pretty simple, except for Bubbles. Bubbles gets his own scene.

Speaker 5:
[33:00] That's insane.

Speaker 4:
[33:01] Miles Teller, he's like, yo, everybody clear out, what are you going to do for me? How can you help me?

Speaker 5:
[33:05] Can you make me the biggest star in the world?

Speaker 4:
[33:07] I'm like, oh my gosh. OK, if I'm taking this movie as fact, right, which they want me to, which I'm supposed to, then this guy must be the most important person that Michael Jackson has ever come across in his entire life.

Speaker 3:
[33:21] An executive producer.

Speaker 6:
[33:22] Executive producer of the movie.

Speaker 2:
[33:24] Jomi, what did I say? During the movie, we sit down, we're looking at the movie. During the movie, we're looking at the movie. And we're watching it. And obviously, I see Miles Teller in the room. So I know that he's whoever this guy is. Yeah, this is fucking Miles Teller, right? It's fucking Whiplash. So I see Miles Teller in the movie. I'm like, OK, this guy. But then it's like, it's a room full of all of these suits. You won't recognize another actor in the scene. In order to make that actor stand out. You know it. Because, hey, everybody else get out. It's me and this guy. I look at Jomi. I'm like, what the fuck is this scene in the movie for? Like, why is this in the movie? And I look at Jomi. I'm like, dead ass, who is this guy? What is he? Why is his arrival? Michael looks at him and goes, can you make me the biggest star in the world?

Speaker 5:
[34:10] Off the Wall has already come out at this point.

Speaker 2:
[34:11] I mean, he wasn't the biggest star in the world after Off the Wall. Sure, there are people around Michael Jackson that protected him and helped him get to where he was, without a doubt, right? And this John Branker guy seems to be a pretty good guy. He's on the board of some Jackie Robinson shit, he's on the board of some Barack Obama shit. It seems like he's aight, I don't know too much about him, right? But he has had a long career in music with a lot of other-

Speaker 3:
[34:34] Worked with the Beach Boys.

Speaker 2:
[34:35] Yeah, all of this is true, right? Right away, I knew that that guy had something to do with this movie because that makes no sense in this movie to have him in it when Janet Jackson isn't in the movie. Michael's brothers are basically extras in the film. Why does it matter that Michael's brothers would be more prominently featured in the movie? Michael's a lot unlike his brothers. Like his brother, Jermaine Jackson, which is barely mentioned in the movie, stayed with Motown when Michael and the family went to CBS. All of this stuff, which is covered extensively in the Jackson family movie.

Speaker 3:
[35:14] Good movie.

Speaker 2:
[35:15] Fantastic movie.

Speaker 3:
[35:16] We're watching it, good movie.

Speaker 2:
[35:17] Where Michael Jackson is treated like someone that you understood to become Michael Jackson. Looking in the mirror with his mom going, I hate my nose, my face is breaking out. As he's getting older, he is contending with the fact that he is a child star that is turning to an adult man and is looked at differently by people. They treat Michael Jackson like an actual person. Now, this movie doesn't have to spend a lot of time. Well, this is Michael Jackson movie. But what I'm saying is, there's context for all of this stuff. There's context for why he is, for how he felt and all of that. But the movie cares about the fucking lawyer. That is the cynicism in the film. We don't need the fucking lawyer. What we need is to understand why this nigga could sing and dance better than anybody else has ever done. That's what we need.

Speaker 3:
[36:02] Do you also think, because when I'm watching, the stuff that makes me laugh about Michael Jackson now is all the stories of other celebrities and other friends being like, hey, yo, y'all knew Michael Jackson from the videos and shit. When the cameras was off, that was a real nigga. His voice dropped.

Speaker 4:
[36:20] He didn't give a shit.

Speaker 3:
[36:22] That was part of it. I'm like, if your family is the executive producers of this film, I was wondering, why don't I feel like I'm getting anything that's approximating the real Michael? Why am I not getting any stories that weren't in the biographies, that is like, this is coming from the family, where we're like, yo, you guys thought you knew our brother, but this was a black man in a white world. Where like the movie does touch upon him like with the Beat It video and reaching out to the Bloods and the Crips and everybody else. It makes it aware that I'm like, Michael is not only black, but he feels like a leader in the black community. But it never pushes past a Wikipedia entry.

Speaker 4:
[37:05] Yeah, we gotta get to the next music video. Why would it do anything more, right? Like that's like, again, he does a great job being Michael. I wanted to ask you guys like, what was your favorite musical sequence? Cause that's what they're like really interested in. The one that I couldn't get past, I think Jafar did an amazing job like embodying Michael in the performances. The one that I can't get past was Thriller.

Speaker 3:
[37:32] Thriller was bad.

Speaker 4:
[37:33] It's too, maybe it's just too iconic. It's too like, when you think of like Michael Jackson music videos, at least for me, that's the first place you go, right? And to see that I was like, I'll not really mess with it. On the other hand though, Motown Celebration 25 and Bad, amazing.

Speaker 5:
[37:52] Amazing.

Speaker 4:
[37:52] What was it?

Speaker 3:
[37:53] I will say the Motown Celebration, it was funny, because at one point, the camera pants and his lights get blown.

Speaker 5:
[38:00] He's like, ah! Yeah, I know. There's like a lot of shots of like, this movie wants to reward you for having been a fan of Michael, because like, there are so many shots of people, not just like freaking out and being ecstatic, but like looking up to him as if he is a deity.

Speaker 4:
[38:16] Is it the Bad or the last one, the Victor? Whichever one, we're like four to five people pass out, and they just keep showing that?

Speaker 2:
[38:25] That was happening.

Speaker 5:
[38:25] Well, that was happening.

Speaker 2:
[38:26] I'm not saying it's not happening.

Speaker 4:
[38:27] It was going crazy. I'm not saying it's not happening.

Speaker 2:
[38:29] If you watch all those old concert videos I had, they were literally like passing people over to things so they could get to medical attention, because Michael was making them fat apart.

Speaker 4:
[38:38] How many times do we need to see that in this movie? Like you see it once or twice, we get it. People are passing on people's fame. They spam that move crazy in the last like 30 minutes. He was great though. I think Bad Person was probably my favorite, but the Motown Joint, he was also cooking with that one.

Speaker 3:
[38:55] All right, so I did not like the beginning of it, because I know it did happen, but Doggouts followed out, where MJ unites the Bloods and the Crips.

Speaker 5:
[39:06] Right.

Speaker 4:
[39:09] This is the C-Walk.

Speaker 3:
[39:10] But the scene where he's showing them the moves.

Speaker 5:
[39:13] When he's figuring out.

Speaker 3:
[39:14] Yeah, and that's what I wanted more in the movie, because I was like, when Jafar does an amazing job, because when he's in front of the mirror and he's talking to his dancers, and you can see in real time him leading them in how to move and everything, I was like, oh, you guys are showing the genius of Michael Jackson. He is thinking holistically of everything that's happening, and I was like, oh, this shit is fucking fire. That's what I wanted for all of the scenes where I'm like, yo, do not blow past this. This is one of the greatest songs of all time. Like, tell me all of the tidbits, all of the little shit. As a music nerd, that's probably where I was let down the most.

Speaker 5:
[39:58] It's only interested in recreating that verbatim.

Speaker 3:
[40:01] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[40:02] OK, watch this video on YouTube, now watch this movie and see how well that they recreated that in the movie. That's not important to me.

Speaker 2:
[40:08] Which I don't understand because, as awesome as Jafar is, all of those performances should only serve story purpose because if I want to go and watch Michael Jackson perform bad in 1989 in London.

Speaker 5:
[40:21] We can just watch that right now on YouTube.

Speaker 2:
[40:22] I don't have to watch his nephew do it, I can watch it on YouTube. You guys wanna mind if I do something I've never done on a podcast before?

Speaker 3:
[40:29] Do it.

Speaker 5:
[40:29] What's up?

Speaker 2:
[40:29] Read a section of a Wikipedia. And I wanna read this section because I want you guys to know, seriously, how interesting Michael Jackson's life actually was. Like how groundbreaking in a lot of ways Michael Jackson was as a performer and as the unparalleled heavyweight champion of American pop culture.

Speaker 4:
[40:53] Go for it.

Speaker 2:
[40:53] Michael Jackson at one point owned the catalog of The Beatles.

Speaker 5:
[40:57] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[40:57] Which is why, when we talk about the fact that when he passed away, he was having money problems, he had crazy assets, but he was just incredibly extravagant. Obviously, you saw him buying giraffes and building all of that type of shit. So there's a lot of debt.

Speaker 5:
[41:11] He cleared out a whole mall. Right.

Speaker 2:
[41:13] There's a lot of debt. If at any point he was able to go on tour, he was going to be able to come out of debt just because how famous Michael Jackson was. But this is the story of how Michael Jackson got The Beatles catalog. There's a couple of paragraphs, so bear with me for a second. In 1981, American singer Michael Jackson collaborated with Paul McCartney, writing and recording several songs together. Jackson stayed at the home of McCartney and his wife Linda during the recording sessions, becoming friendly with both. One evening at the dining table, McCartney brought out a thick bound notebook displaying all the songs which he owned the publishing rights to. Jackson grew more excited as he examined the pages. He inquired about how to buy songs and how the songs were used. McCartney explained that music publishing was a lucrative part of the music business. Jackson replied by telling McCartney that he would buy The Beatles songs one day. McCartney laughed saying, great, good joke. Sitting in front of one of the members of Lyndon McCartney and telling him, I'm going to own your catalog one day. Jackson was first informed that the ATV catalog, that's The Beatles catalog, was up for sale in September 1984 by his attorney, John Branca. Want to put this in the scene for a movie? Do that. Put him in that fucking scene. Who had put together Jackson's earlier catalog acquisitions and warned of the competition he would face in buying such popular songs, Jackson remained resolute in his decision to purchase them. Branca approached McCartney's attorney to query whether or not the Beatles were playing in the bid. The attorney said he was not. It cost too much money. So the idea that he went and snaked that from Paul McCartney is in fact untrue. Paul McCartney didn't have the money at the time to buy it, and Mike did. According to Brett Ruter, who negotiated the sale of ATV music for Holmes at court, we had given Paul McCartney first right of refusal, but Paul didn't want it at that time. Lyndon's widow, Yoko Ono, had been contacted as well, but also did not enter bidding. The competitors in the 1984 sale included Charles Coplman, Marty Bandler, and Virgin Records, all three competing for the Beatles' catalog. Michael Jackson is going to get it. This is a fascinating story to me. New York real estate tycoon Samuel LeFranc and financier Charles Knapp. All those people are into it. On November 20th, 1984, Jackson set a bid of $46 million for the whole thing. Branca suggested that the amount of the bid, after having spent time evaluating the earnings of the catalog and learning of another bid for $39 million, so Mike wanted to bid over them. He was only interested in the copyrights, but the packaging also included buildings, a recording studio, all of that stuff. The two signed a non-binding memorandum of mutual interest in December 1984. Jackson's team began a four-month process of verifying all of the legal documents, financial reports, every significant composition in a nearly 4,000 song catalog. Sony ATV actually ended up merging. Part of that was Michael Jackson. Sony slash ATV, part of that was owned by Michael Jackson. That's much power he wielded in the music industry at one point. Anyway, at the end of this, what ends up happening is Michael gets it, but he has to work out a deal basically with these people in Australia, the Australian government to go in there and appear in Australia a couple of times a year to make this entire acquisition happen. This is like music history. This is Michael Jackson, Paul McCartney, The Beatles, it's business, it's perceived double dealing, it's perceived snaking of a friend. All of this is how interesting this guy's fucking life was. We could talk about the way people-

Speaker 3:
[44:50] That's one story, by the way.

Speaker 2:
[44:51] That's one story.

Speaker 3:
[44:51] But also what I think that story illustrates and what the movie is not interested in is I'm like, think about it. We all know that story as Michael Jackson fucked over Paul McCartney and the Beatles. Versus what the Jackson family could have done is, this was a black man at the height of his power, realizing what true power was and how he can be portrayed when he tries to do the same thing that Paul McCartney was already doing. That to me is interesting. And the movie sometimes gets to that point where I'm like, no, I know Michael Jackson, and rightfully so for a lot of things he's done, became kind of a punchline. But you're not that type of genius and you don't make that type of music if you're not a little shrewd or a lot shrewd, and if you don't know how you want to navigate the business. And I'm just like, wait, if the Jackson family is so interesting in setting the record of like, this was the real Michael you didn't know, why are they settling for basically just playing the hits?

Speaker 5:
[45:54] Well, it's not even playing the hits. We didn't learn anything about Michael that we didn't already know in this movie. Do you think?

Speaker 3:
[46:01] I think what this movie wants us to know, because they spend a lot of time on it, is they're just like, and this was when Michael got his pet rat. And this is when he got a snake. And now Bubbles is here. And I'm like, what the fuck is happening right now?

Speaker 4:
[46:14] My favorite part of the movie was when they had to say Latoya's name every single time so we didn't get confused by who that was.

Speaker 3:
[46:20] I knew Janet wasn't in this movie, but I really was like, hey, no, they're not even going to put a little baby.

Speaker 5:
[46:26] It's just not, where is she?

Speaker 2:
[46:28] She's trying to be involved in the film. In 66, when they were in Gary, Catherine would have been pregnant with Janet or Janet would have been in Gary.

Speaker 4:
[46:37] It's the multiverse. It's the alternate universe where Janet Jackson wasn't born. It's really that simple, guys.

Speaker 3:
[46:43] All right, so let's get positive for a minute. What is the best part of this movie?

Speaker 2:
[46:50] By far, Jafar Jackson.

Speaker 5:
[46:51] Jafar occasionally approximating Michael in sometimes uncanny ways. Not even just in dancing, but you hear his voice, you hear him sneer or look at somebody and the light hits him just right and I'm like, holy shit, you look just like Michael. There's an occasional, again, uncanniness that I don't think I could get over with Jafar's presence in this movie.

Speaker 4:
[47:17] For me, I think the bad performance at the end was amazing. If they would have been rolling the credits or not, I might have been like, hey man, you know what? That was whack, but at least I got to listen to some good Michael Jackson music.

Speaker 5:
[47:29] Honestly, it was the transition from the Motown celebration and it's him walking out of the tunnel in Dodger Stadium and in the same shot into the tunnel in London. The music is transitioning from the closing of that song to the opening of Bad and I'm like, this is incredible. This feels electric.

Speaker 4:
[47:50] I did the math. The movie, it's an hour 22 minutes in before he moonwalks. Okay. It's like the most Michael Jackson, at least for me, the most iconic dance move of all time, Michael Jackson, and they're like, you gotta wait 90 minutes. You gotta, it's not quite Surf Jackula, but I thought it was funny that you had to wait 90 minutes to see Michael Jackson.

Speaker 5:
[48:10] There was some insights into the Jackson 5 era that I kind of wanted to stay in a bit because that whole era is its own story.

Speaker 4:
[48:17] I thought, I mean, the movie tries to, the movie like is bookended by the Jackson 5 stuff.

Speaker 5:
[48:22] Right.

Speaker 4:
[48:22] Right. It's like we start with the Jackson 5, we end the last time the Jackson 5 are on stage together, which might've worked if you were actually interested in telling the story of all the Jackson 5.

Speaker 3:
[48:33] I will say whoever the young homie was who played like young Michael, I thought he did.

Speaker 4:
[48:37] He was good too.

Speaker 5:
[48:38] Really good.

Speaker 4:
[48:39] He was good too.

Speaker 3:
[48:39] Like really, really good.

Speaker 2:
[48:41] Of the people that, the brother that played Mike's bodyguard.

Speaker 4:
[48:45] Really good.

Speaker 3:
[48:46] Bill, really good.

Speaker 2:
[48:47] Bill, like really good. Of the performances in the movie, everybody talented. Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[48:51] Neil Long, shout out Neil Long.

Speaker 4:
[48:52] Deon Cole is Don King.

Speaker 2:
[48:53] Deon Cole is Don King in the cool scene. I will say that the sequence of Michael being burned on set of the Pepsi video.

Speaker 5:
[49:02] That's insane.

Speaker 2:
[49:03] And what happened after, that stuff worked for me.

Speaker 3:
[49:07] Really? When his hair was getting burned, that was...

Speaker 4:
[49:10] No, it was kind of fake. It was very much like, all right, man, we got the CW budget one second, because he not really like, it wasn't like, it didn't look great.

Speaker 2:
[49:17] But I think emotionally, I know what a big deal that was in the life of Michael Jackson. So like that entire, but the way they treated it, even after that, it was like, yeah, we're going to donate all the money from the settlement to the burn kids. And look, I'm sure all of that's real. Yeah, it is. But it just, to say it so like, you can just tell. Man, when I'm up here talking about my dad, right? I talk about my father, and I spend a lot of time on how much my father meant to me and how awesome a guy my father was. But also, in order to be fair to him, and sometimes I feel like, seriously, sometimes I feel like in order to honor him, I have to honor him in the way that he actually was. Because if I don't, even if I'm not doing it in my mind, I'm double-inditing him for these things. If I lie about who he is, or if I don't, if I hide parts of who he is, I'm saying that those parts of him are bigger than the other parts. So the reason why people might hear me is like, why is he always so transparent? I'm not saying that they had to do this in this movie. I'm not saying that at all. But I'm saying, there's a way to look at this that says, if you can't even attempt to give people an accurate depiction of someone, it's like your shame is coming through the movie. It's like your feeling about it is coming through the movie. It's something that you haven't come to terms with, because you're not willing to discuss it. And the entire time I'm watching this, I'm like, either they're trying to, for a new generation of people, tell a story about Michael Jackson, that in no way anyone that lived through any of this stuff is going to believe, or they're embarrassed about some of this stuff. And to me, I just don't know why you wouldn't undertake it.

Speaker 3:
[51:18] I mean, I'll be real. For our black heroes, because it's still happening. Do we really want to contend with who Hov is, or Beyonce, or Obama, or any of these people? No. Do we want them to be nuanced figures, or have they gotten to such a point in society where it's like, hey, this is for us. We can have that conversation amongst ourselves. We can't have this conversation in public. And I think that's where a lot of the animosity is coming from, especially from people who are very pro-Michael, which is just like, why can't we just celebrate our brother? Why does it always have to be about the negative shit? But I agree with you, where I'm like, the nuance of Michael Jackson, the failures of Michael Jackson are just as interesting and important to me as the success, because I think it demonstrates something about what it is not only to be human, but to be American, which is to reach those heights and to do everything that he accomplished, you are going to have to sell something. And you are going to have to be part of a system that is going to destroy people's lives. And it's like, how do we as fans of music, how do we as black fans of music, how is just people who love culture, can we look that in the eye? Because I'm like, all of these biopics, if we want all of these heroes have a moment in their career where they do something, where I'm just like, yeah. There's a reason like, yo, there are no ethical millionaires and billionaires. I'm like, hey, you're going to have to walk over some people. And I'm like, to me, that makes you a more, that's what Michael's music, to me, if you listen to Michael's music, I'm like, he's contending with it in the fucking music.

Speaker 5:
[53:11] And it's really true. And I think the line that hits hardest for me in this movie, and it's the skeleton of a much smarter and nuanced movie is here. You can't see it that well, but it's there. The line that I can't remember the name of the Jackson 5's first producer was, where he's like-

Speaker 4:
[53:28] Lawrence Tate?

Speaker 5:
[53:29] Lawrence Tate, yeah. He was telling Michael to lie about his age. He's like, in this business- Is that Barry Gordy? Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[53:35] You don't know Barry Gordy?

Speaker 5:
[53:36] I forgot the guy's name. Sorry.

Speaker 4:
[53:39] I don't know Barry Gordy.

Speaker 3:
[53:42] Okay.

Speaker 5:
[53:42] He doesn't know Barry Gordy either.

Speaker 4:
[53:43] My fault, I wasn't there in 1968.

Speaker 5:
[53:45] I'm sorry. I don't know the lore of that like that.

Speaker 3:
[53:47] Wait. Y'all both don't know Barry?

Speaker 2:
[53:49] Hold on. Hold on.

Speaker 4:
[53:49] Hold on. I've heard about him.

Speaker 6:
[53:51] Hold on.

Speaker 5:
[53:53] I know he's part of Motown.

Speaker 4:
[53:54] I'm 29 years old. Wait. Wait.

Speaker 6:
[53:57] Wait.

Speaker 4:
[53:57] We're not doing this. We're not doing this. We're not doing this. Oh, my fault. You don't know who Dave Cowell is or Bob Cousy is. My fault. Like, you know what I'm saying? Let's calm down.

Speaker 3:
[54:07] this is Barry Gordy.

Speaker 4:
[54:08] Do your thing.

Speaker 2:
[54:08] Keep doing it.

Speaker 4:
[54:09] My fault.

Speaker 3:
[54:10] Keep doing it.

Speaker 4:
[54:11] I don't know who.

Speaker 2:
[54:12] Keep doing it.

Speaker 4:
[54:12] How am I supposed to know?

Speaker 2:
[54:14] Just let me know when you're finished.

Speaker 4:
[54:15] Tell me how. No, no, no. Tell me how I'm supposed to know.

Speaker 2:
[54:18] Okay. So Barry Gordy basically invented black pop music. So-

Speaker 4:
[54:25] It's educational. Thank you. I'm learning.

Speaker 2:
[54:27] I'm not saying that they weren't popular artists that were black before then. There's not King Cole. There's all kinds of people that had to. But Motown became the Sound of America.

Speaker 4:
[54:38] Right.

Speaker 2:
[54:38] Revolutionized.

Speaker 4:
[54:40] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[54:40] Not just black pop music as far as R&B is concerned. Name as many Motown artists as you can.

Speaker 4:
[54:48] Temptations.

Speaker 2:
[54:49] Okay.

Speaker 4:
[54:50] There are, forgetting the women group. Stevie's Motown.

Speaker 2:
[54:54] Stevie's Motown.

Speaker 4:
[54:55] Oh, bird.

Speaker 3:
[54:56] Stevie Young. Remember Stevie-

Speaker 2:
[54:57] Stevie's Motown.

Speaker 6:
[54:58] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[54:58] The Supremes are Motown.

Speaker 6:
[54:59] The Supremes.

Speaker 4:
[55:00] That's what I was thinking.

Speaker 2:
[55:01] Marvin Gaye is Motown. Smokey Robinson is Motown. The Jackson 5 are Motown.

Speaker 5:
[55:06] And it's like the younger generations associate Motown as a genre of music rather than a label that ushered in a bunch of-

Speaker 2:
[55:12] That's fine.

Speaker 5:
[55:13] No, but that's what you associate that.

Speaker 2:
[55:15] What I'm saying is-

Speaker 4:
[55:16] I'm vaguely familiar with Motown. Barry Gordon was never in the equation when they were teaching the Supremes.

Speaker 2:
[55:22] I know that you guys are younger, but we- Come on, man.

Speaker 4:
[55:25] That was not-

Speaker 5:
[55:25] I'm sorry.

Speaker 4:
[55:26] That was not in the syllabus. I don't know what to tell you.

Speaker 5:
[55:28] So when Barry Gordon tells Michael-

Speaker 3:
[55:30] Barry Gordy.

Speaker 6:
[55:34] They go, Barry Gordy is the last dragon. Barry Gordy. That's the name of the movie. This is the-

Speaker 4:
[55:43] Can I just be honest? They don't want to educate us at all.

Speaker 3:
[55:47] Can I be honest?

Speaker 4:
[55:48] I didn't know.

Speaker 3:
[55:48] This is the failure of the movie. Because I'm like, the movie should have been teaching the audience about Barry fucking Gordy. There is a reason why when he sees Michael that young and he notices the talent, he's like, dog, this is Lil James Brown. I can make him into the biggest star in the world. That's also why when Jermaine stays and they all go, it's like you are separating from the godfather of black pop music.

Speaker 4:
[56:19] See, again, failure on the movie part, because that's Barry Gordy, right? Damn. And then I'm like, that's La'Ress Tate.

Speaker 6:
[56:29] We'll be like, hey, shout out La'Ress Tate, man.

Speaker 3:
[56:31] Wait, do y'all know who Quincy Jones is?

Speaker 2:
[56:32] I'm going to be real, bro.

Speaker 5:
[56:33] I know who Quincy Jones is.

Speaker 3:
[56:35] Wait, so you know who Quincy Jones is?

Speaker 4:
[56:36] You don't know who Barry Gordy is?

Speaker 6:
[56:37] I know who Quincy Jones is.

Speaker 4:
[56:38] Come on.

Speaker 2:
[56:39] Hey, can I say something?

Speaker 6:
[56:40] Can I say something?

Speaker 4:
[56:41] Don't do that.

Speaker 2:
[56:42] Can I be real? I know this is going to be the most controversial part of the podcast, but let me put it to you like this. It's like we sitting up here, we critiquing the movie, we're talking about Michael Jackson, all of that. We got to, you know what we should do? We got to get into the old school shit. I get it. We got to know who Barry Gordy is. We're covering pop culture. We got to know Barry Gordy, man. We got to know who Barry Gordy is.

Speaker 5:
[57:05] I will educate myself, I will teach you in the schools.

Speaker 6:
[57:07] Open the school.

Speaker 4:
[57:09] So we did, cause we did-

Speaker 3:
[57:11] watch high school musicals but don't know who Barry Gordy is?

Speaker 4:
[57:13] In elementary school, we did a Motown thing. I was one of the Temptations. That's how I knew Temptations.

Speaker 5:
[57:19] Which Temptation were you?

Speaker 4:
[57:20] I don't know, man. One of them had a-

Speaker 5:
[57:22] Are you singing the highs of the list?

Speaker 4:
[57:23] One of us had a tie, the other ones didn't or whatever. One of us had a bow tie, whatever. And then the Supremes. That's how I know the Supremes and the Temptations.

Speaker 3:
[57:31] You didn't know Stevie was on Motown?

Speaker 4:
[57:33] I did not know Stevie was on Motown. Obviously, the Jackson 5. But that's it. That's my Motown education. I was not like, man, let me go and check out these Motown tunes. Maybe that's a failure on my part. But nobody was like, man.

Speaker 3:
[57:45] The African household not listening to Motown.

Speaker 4:
[57:47] We don't listen to Michael Jackson. Brother, we was listening to African music again.

Speaker 2:
[57:51] You know who was listening to African music? Michael Jackson.

Speaker 6:
[57:55] I'm saying myself.

Speaker 2:
[57:57] But not only that, go spin Moonwalker. At the end of Moonwalker, a beautiful song is performed by an African group called Lady Smith Black Mambazo. And the name of the Moon... Paul Simon? The name of the song is called The Moon is Walking. And they're talking about Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson has them in that because once again, there was not a bigger student of world culture and music and those influences than Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson brought fucking Teddy Riley in to do the new Jack Swing type of shit. He's hearing it. He's up on this shit. He's doing this shit. He's just like, there hasn't been another one like him. And this movie just doesn't get there on that.

Speaker 3:
[58:45] I will say, though, the one thing I wish they would have included is my favorite Michael Jackson clip of all time. Any single time somebody shares the We Are the World video.

Speaker 5:
[58:53] Oh, man. He's just ignoring. Man, there need to be more cameos. There had to have been some legal thing where it's like, we can't show the Paul McCartney's of the world. We can't show anybody else.

Speaker 2:
[59:02] Because Eddie Van Halen didn't need it. They say, oh, you know who that is. They say, that's that Van Halen shit. It's Eddie Van Halen playing it. So even that, though, once again, Mike is hearing, what are people listening to right now that is making the sound of America? And in the early to mid to late 80s, Van Halen and the way Eddie Van Halen was playing his guitar was revolutionary. He had a different sound than nobody else had. So Mike went, I need that fucking sound. Put the fucking sound on my shit. Crazy shit.

Speaker 3:
[59:39] We didn't even get a story about Billie Jean. We didn't get, we didn't go into any of the songs. I was like, dog, put him in the fucking studio. Let me see him fucking sing this shit.

Speaker 5:
[59:49] If a whole movie about Michael Jackson was just making an album, that would have been more compelling.

Speaker 2:
[59:53] Just the making of the thriller.

Speaker 5:
[59:56] Like just him locked in a studio, figuring shit out.

Speaker 4:
[59:59] Hemi Quincy, yeah, that would have been cool, but we didn't get enough of that, man.

Speaker 3:
[60:02] We ready for The Midnight Meter?

Speaker 2:
[60:04] Yeah, man.

Speaker 3:
[60:04] All right, y'all know what The Midnight Meter is. One to 12, one terrible 11, 12 reserved for true game changers. I think I gotta give this movie a three.

Speaker 2:
[60:16] Yeah, it's a three. I was tempted to go lower.

Speaker 3:
[60:21] I thought I was gonna give it a one, but I will say just in terms of just...

Speaker 2:
[60:25] Jafar, I gotta give Jafar.

Speaker 3:
[60:26] Jafar did a great performance. And there are points in this movie where there is something about being in a theater, hearing the music. You're not wrong. It's pretty great. Come on.

Speaker 2:
[60:36] You're not wrong, you're not wrong.

Speaker 3:
[60:37] So it gets a three for the music and Jafar.

Speaker 2:
[60:39] It gets a three for the music and Jafar. And I will say at the end of the movie, you do care that Michael Jackson is able, at least I did, you do care that Michael Jackson was able to get free of his fathers. Because the prevailing narrative in the movie is Michael Jackson finding himself and getting free of his father's clutches as a fucking 25 year old man that had sold 30 million records and still stay at home. And like, it's wild. Like getting free of his father's clutches. And at the end, when he does decide to go out on his own, and he walks away, I am like, damn, good job, Mike.

Speaker 3:
[61:21] But you already said it, bro. Man, Joe Jackson won't be talking to me in no type of way.

Speaker 4:
[61:28] After Off the Wall, man, it's going to be a little bit, but then after Thriller, you actually can't say shit to me.

Speaker 3:
[61:34] When John Parkinson or however he says the name, says the facts through, and yo, Joe is waiting. And Michael is like, oh, I'm going to get some ice cream.

Speaker 6:
[61:43] Shut the door. You're in his house. You're in his house. Then I'm like three times when Joe Jackson would sneak up on Mike or be in his room or be around the corner.

Speaker 5:
[61:54] Like Mike Myers.

Speaker 3:
[61:55] When Mike got the blessings, actually. And he's like, come here.

Speaker 6:
[61:59] He's like, sorry, dude. It's like, what the fuck is happening?

Speaker 4:
[62:02] It's ridiculous. I wanted to give it a two, but I think you guys are right in that performance. I think the bad one sticks with me. I'ma give it one point just for Jafar alone. Give it a three. What are the best movie going to experience in my life? Not because of the movie, because we were sitting there and we couldn't believe what we were watching.

Speaker 3:
[62:20] Oh, they never, whoever, who's recently in this, Lionsgate? Yeah, they never invite us again. They like, them four never come into a screen again. It was dead silent. And we was-

Speaker 6:
[62:30] I turned to my left and Van is like, like, yo, man, this is not what you, I can't believe what I'm watching. I turned to my right and Charles is like this, like, he can't believe what he's watching.

Speaker 3:
[62:43] When the Bloods of Crips were like banging their heads with that mic, I was like, all right.

Speaker 4:
[62:47] We was, yeah, it was, it's a tough watch, but watching what you guys is great. Gotta give it a three.

Speaker 5:
[62:53] Steve, three as well. Like, it really is, it's so tough, but Jafar really is good. And like a couple of other performances are notable as well. Like, Coleman really does his best.

Speaker 4:
[63:02] There's no real bad performances in a movie.

Speaker 2:
[63:04] Nobody misses in terms of that.

Speaker 3:
[63:05] What are the good music biopics? Because to me it is a very, very cursed genre. Walk hard destroyed the biopic.

Speaker 5:
[63:16] Right, it should have at least.

Speaker 3:
[63:18] Ray, I still think.

Speaker 5:
[63:19] I do like Ray.

Speaker 2:
[63:20] Ray is great.

Speaker 4:
[63:21] Ray is really good, Ray is good.

Speaker 5:
[63:23] Jamie Foxx earned that Oscar.

Speaker 3:
[63:24] The original Jackson, the original Jackson family.

Speaker 2:
[63:27] The American Family Dream is fantastic. Really, a lot of the ones.

Speaker 3:
[63:31] Dream Girls? That's actually not it.

Speaker 2:
[63:33] It's kind of based on what I was saying.

Speaker 5:
[63:34] What do you think of Walk the Line?

Speaker 2:
[63:35] Huh? Walk the Line is good, but a lot of the ones that they did miniseries of, because they have so much more time, like The Temptation was a miniseries.

Speaker 5:
[63:42] The Temptation one is good.

Speaker 4:
[63:43] That's what I was trying to figure out.

Speaker 2:
[63:45] Is that a miniseries or a miniseries? So that one's good, but they're not easy to make, but I'm to the point, as I said on Bill's part, I'm to the point to where I almost think that the biopic itself is dead.

Speaker 5:
[63:59] It really feels gross.

Speaker 4:
[64:01] The movie biopic? Because Oppenheimer just came out.

Speaker 2:
[64:04] Okay, Oppenheimer works, right?

Speaker 3:
[64:05] But here, what I would say about that is, to me, Oppenheimer is a spectacle movie where it is like, yes, it is about Oppenheimer, but it is about Christopher Nolan leading you up to the climax of, we are going to see a nuclear explosion. I tend to agree where the only biopics to me, I don't know if you guys saw this movie that worked, is like that movie Blackberry where it is like, oh yeah, you are taking a story that you think you know and you are telling a specific moment in time. You're not going cradle to the grave. I think that shit is done. If you're going to do a biopic now, you almost have to break the genre from the beginning.

Speaker 5:
[64:45] I liked the Steve Jobs, Aaron Sorkin one with Michael Fassbender. I really liked that movie.

Speaker 2:
[64:49] It's a good movie. But once again, look at the structure.

Speaker 5:
[64:52] Exactly, it's structured and it's focused.

Speaker 3:
[64:54] The social network.

Speaker 2:
[64:54] Yeah, I mean, wait, X is a great biopic. There are biopics that have come out that are great. There are biopics about lesser known people. I think the music biopics, like, they didn't know themselves, because the music, it seems like it's a cheat code, but it actually can sometimes weigh the film down. It really does. A Complete Unknown was not, the Springsteen biopic was fucking terrible. I see that.

Speaker 3:
[65:20] A Complete Unknown wasn't bad.

Speaker 2:
[65:21] It wasn't bad.

Speaker 3:
[65:22] It wasn't great.

Speaker 2:
[65:23] It wasn't great. It wasn't great.

Speaker 3:
[65:25] I would have rather had, but I would have rather had Michael be closer to a Complete Unknown, just in terms of just like, at least interrogating a little bit what makes this person a genius. Like, actually maybe giving us a little less music and more story, where this one was all music.

Speaker 4:
[65:42] Very little story.

Speaker 3:
[65:43] Are we, all right, really quick nerd news. Are we ready to talk about first trailer, Clayface is out, next, well, not the next movie from DC, but after Supergirl, this is coming out in October, I think, I believe October 23rd.

Speaker 4:
[65:57] Right.

Speaker 3:
[65:58] I will start off, I think potentially the gun has jammed for our man.

Speaker 4:
[66:06] No. Actually, you know what, you know what, this is not shocking. It's not, coming from you, of course.

Speaker 5:
[66:10] Yeah, yeah, whatever.

Speaker 4:
[66:10] It's a good trailer.

Speaker 5:
[66:11] No, it's a really good trailer.

Speaker 4:
[66:12] It's a really good trailer. It's a good trailer. I'll be with you. We've been on the James Bestola hate train for a minute.

Speaker 5:
[66:19] James Bestola.

Speaker 4:
[66:21] We gotta come together, man.

Speaker 6:
[66:22] He might have some juice, bruh.

Speaker 4:
[66:24] First of all, this is a Mike Flanagan joint. We gotta start treating all the stuff to James Gunn. I was intrigued. Now, there probably won't be more Batman. I'm gonna be mad about it. However, this looked interesting. Clayface, he's doing the thing with the, you know, using the clay as a mace or whatever. The guy, like, there's a chance that this movie, despite, like, it not being, like, all the way, like, in the vein of what we think of when we, like, Superman or Supergirl or whatever, this could be interesting and not really fun, but scary and interesting. I'm there. I'm with it. I thought this really did a great job of selling me on the premise of the film or what the, or what the world's gonna look like.

Speaker 6:
[67:02] And the vibes were great. I liked it.

Speaker 5:
[67:04] I really liked it. I think it was great. There's a great anchoring of, like, that just, like, that dead-eyed stare of him, just, like, looking into the hospital, like, in horror or thinking of something.

Speaker 4:
[67:13] Face-melting?

Speaker 5:
[67:14] Face-melting. Like, it looks like it's got some great practical effects. I really like this stuff.

Speaker 4:
[67:19] Dude, when he's in the bathtub.

Speaker 5:
[67:20] When he pulls his face down, I'm like, this is actually, that's really cool.

Speaker 3:
[67:23] I'm like, okay, hold on.

Speaker 2:
[67:24] Charles, what did you like about it?

Speaker 5:
[67:27] Nothing.

Speaker 3:
[67:27] And maybe this isn't fair to the movie. I just don't give a fuck about Clayface. I get it. And I think the trailer, what I would need from a trailer to be like, damn, no wonder they made a Clayface movie. And I just left the trailer. Because I'll be real, it was not like a bat. Like, if you're interested in horror, if you're interested in the Batman movies and just as a character, I could honestly see why you would walk away from this trailer and be like, oh, this is gonna be great. This is gonna be a fun time at the movie. This is so interesting. Just watching it, I was just like, I still don't give a fuck about Clayface.

Speaker 2:
[68:01] Let me ask you a question.

Speaker 3:
[68:01] Sure.

Speaker 2:
[68:02] Hold on, let me ask you a question. Let's say you didn't know that. Let's say we could do something which we have not been able to do in six fucking years. Which is make you go into something without any expectation at all. Does the movie, does the trailer look cool?

Speaker 3:
[68:21] Are we asking if it looks cool? Like would I buy it? If I didn't know nothing about this movie, would I buy a ticket after the show?

Speaker 2:
[68:25] No, no, no, no, okay, just no. Forget about that. Nothing. Just from what you saw, does it look cool?

Speaker 3:
[68:33] No. It looks fine. Damn. It looks fine. Damn, man. It doesn't look bad. It's just like, of all of the cool shit that is blasted into my eyes on a daily basis.

Speaker 6:
[68:46] What the fuck of all the cool shit that's blasted. Are you all right?

Speaker 2:
[68:51] Of all the cool shit that's blasted into your eyes. It's cool or is it warm? Come on, man.

Speaker 6:
[68:57] It's like. Stop.

Speaker 5:
[69:01] Here's what I'm curious about, because this is going to be DC's foray into their quote unquote mid-budget attempts at movies. This is made for like what, sub 100 million?

Speaker 4:
[69:11] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[69:12] Like 50 some odd something.

Speaker 4:
[69:14] Very cheap, especially for like a superhero.

Speaker 5:
[69:16] Yes. I like the idea of making something a little grittier, a little smaller and probably less involved in this DCU. I like this idea. And I think that when you put Mike Flanagan in it, I think this is a recipe for success. I think that there's no way it doesn't make good money.

Speaker 4:
[69:34] I like the trailer very much.

Speaker 2:
[69:35] There's a way that it doesn't make good money.

Speaker 5:
[69:38] I don't think this could brick brick.

Speaker 4:
[69:39] I don't think it could brick, but...

Speaker 2:
[69:41] There's a way that this bitch make like $70 million.

Speaker 4:
[69:45] How much did Weapons make?

Speaker 6:
[69:46] And everyone was like, yo, Weapons made a ton of money.

Speaker 5:
[69:49] It's because the ratio between the returns on that were insane.

Speaker 4:
[69:54] That's true, but also Weapons is one of the highest grossing horror movie last year or two years ago, whatever it came out.

Speaker 5:
[70:01] It's because the margin was so high.

Speaker 4:
[70:03] Well, I mean that, but also it made like...

Speaker 2:
[70:04] Weapons made $270, that's a good haul.

Speaker 4:
[70:06] $270 is actually not bad.

Speaker 5:
[70:07] Off a budget of what?

Speaker 2:
[70:08] Budget of $38.

Speaker 4:
[70:09] $38. $270 is actually not bad, actually. I thought it made less than that. Not bad, that's phenomenal.

Speaker 5:
[70:13] It's amazing.

Speaker 4:
[70:14] I thought it was worse. The way I feel about the villain movies...

Speaker 2:
[70:18] Barry Gordy.

Speaker 5:
[70:19] Barry Gordy.

Speaker 4:
[70:20] Is it Barry Gordon or Barry Gordy? Shut the fuck up, dog. I feel like the way we feel about Walkard, the Dewey Cox story and Wild Picks. So I feel about Joker and villain movies.

Speaker 5:
[70:31] That killed the villain movie?

Speaker 4:
[70:32] That killed the villain movie. If we gotta rehabilitate these guys and Joker's the worst of the worst, you try to make us feel bad for Joker, and that didn't work.

Speaker 2:
[70:42] I'm looking at this trailer.

Speaker 5:
[70:43] I can feel bad for Clayface.

Speaker 2:
[70:44] And I see shot after shot of this guy laying in the bed agonizing, close up. What's going on with his face, the whole nine. This seems like a really interesting genre body horror situation.

Speaker 4:
[71:00] I don't like these villain movies, I think, especially when you don't put the main heroes in there. I don't like it. But I'm interested to see what this looks like, because there's a level of horror. We don't like a horror superhero movie. We don't get them.

Speaker 5:
[71:14] Yeah, and the story of Clayface pretty much is that. I think back to the animated series, that story of that actor that's losing his body and his mind when they do it again in the new Batman that was on Amazon. Right, yeah.

Speaker 4:
[71:27] Right? There's a level of, we're familiar with the story, but to see it in live action for real, I'm intrigued. You gotta open your heart, brother.

Speaker 3:
[71:37] I'm just done with the C-list villain. I don't care.

Speaker 4:
[71:39] I mean, I don't disagree with you, but you still gotta go into their open mind, open heart.

Speaker 3:
[71:44] Can't lose. And this is how I've been feeling, because I'm so proud of what The Midnight Boys do. A lot of talking down on the superhero content, talking down on the nerd content.

Speaker 4:
[71:54] That's you.

Speaker 3:
[71:55] Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Speaker 5:
[71:57] He does that.

Speaker 2:
[71:58] That was funny. That was Keith Vaughn telling people to put the guns down. That was funny.

Speaker 5:
[72:02] Put the guns down.

Speaker 2:
[72:03] Charles, I can't even fuck with you on that. That was funny. What? That was Keith Vaughn saying to stop the violence.

Speaker 5:
[72:09] That was funny.

Speaker 6:
[72:10] And the feet talking, looking at the... He's looking at the man over there.

Speaker 3:
[72:14] Here's the thing. I'm in the streets watching this shit, so I can talk shit.

Speaker 2:
[72:18] This is something else.

Speaker 5:
[72:20] One of one. One of one.

Speaker 2:
[72:22] Bro, this guy is something else, bro. I can't tell you, bro.

Speaker 3:
[72:30] I'm buying tickets.

Speaker 2:
[72:31] This is crazy. You don't have to answer this much, bro. All right.

Speaker 3:
[72:38] Oh, last but not least, did we watch the Grogu, the Mando & Grogu clip?

Speaker 2:
[72:43] It's tough.

Speaker 3:
[72:44] Jomi, let the people know how you're feeling.

Speaker 4:
[72:47] Y'all know me, man. My superpower is positivity. All I do is I try to bring the energy, I try to be the love, I try to bring the hype, because we live in a tough world right now, and everybody needs a ray of sunshine. There's no other way to put it. That was a tough watch, I'm not gonna lie to you. I love Zeb, I love Mando, I love Grogu, but that looked like a 2PM PBS special. And it's supposed to be a Star Wars movie, not a television show that you put on Disney Plus and you watch on your screen at the crib, no, no, no, you're supposed to go to Infinity Vision and watch this. My brother's in Christ. TM, TM. I'm not quite at the, you know how sportscasts would be like, they're not dead yet, but they're on live support, that's where we're at right now. The beeping is gaining heavy, brother, it might be time to start making some calls before that plug.

Speaker 3:
[73:35] I'm pivoting. Mando & Grogu. I'm putting my money on.

Speaker 2:
[73:42] Look.

Speaker 6:
[73:43] Put your money on.

Speaker 2:
[73:45] What?

Speaker 6:
[73:47] This is your Black Adam bit.

Speaker 3:
[73:49] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[73:51] Reheating the Black Adam nachos. Oh no, man.

Speaker 3:
[73:55] Y'all gonna be so embarrassed when this movie comes out.

Speaker 2:
[73:57] Hold on, I think, I still hold out hope that the movie is good.

Speaker 3:
[74:00] Of course we hope the movie's good. Have we seen anything good from the movie yet?

Speaker 2:
[74:03] I think that trailer was pretty good.

Speaker 4:
[74:05] I think the trailer was all right. Which one, the second one?

Speaker 2:
[74:06] The second one that they put out.

Speaker 4:
[74:08] The second one brought some life back. The second one brought some life back, but this one, man, I'm like, yo, there's...

Speaker 3:
[74:14] Are they hiding something? That's my last question for y'all. They have to be. Are they hiding something?

Speaker 6:
[74:18] Brother, I hope so.

Speaker 2:
[74:19] I hope so. I hope so.

Speaker 3:
[74:20] Because every single time I watch something, I'm like, what aren't you showing me? That is the bit, because I'm like, who is the villain? What is the thing?

Speaker 5:
[74:28] What's the actual thing that they're doing?

Speaker 3:
[74:31] Like who could it be? If you guys could predict, what could be the thing that they're hiding where we get into the movie theater and we're actually like, we were wrong this whole time?

Speaker 4:
[74:41] They cooked.

Speaker 5:
[74:43] Like, here's the thing, because like anything that's like bigger to the portrait of Star Wars would feel like a cop-out, because it's like more required reading that we don't have going in.

Speaker 4:
[74:57] You can't, I don't think you can.

Speaker 3:
[74:58] Who's bigger than Luke Skywalker?

Speaker 4:
[74:59] That's what I was about to say. You can't do the season two finale again, where Luke Skywalker shows up and you're like, even though it was a good season of television, you're like, oh my gosh, Luke's here.

Speaker 5:
[75:09] You can't pull that card again.

Speaker 4:
[75:10] You can't pull that card again. There's nobody who can match that.

Speaker 3:
[75:13] What if they recast Luke in this movie and he does it back?

Speaker 2:
[75:17] Cambio can't save this one. This movie's gotta go out on its own merits with its own story.

Speaker 3:
[75:21] It's not a Rogue One thing, where Darth Vader shows up and you like...

Speaker 2:
[75:25] Darth Vader, actually, at the end of Rogue One, enhances, that was dessert.

Speaker 3:
[75:29] It didn't save, Rogue One was still good.

Speaker 2:
[75:32] Yeah, I know what you mean. That was dessert to a really, really good meal that made the whole experience better. In this one, they're gonna need to come with a story that is about the relationship between these two characters, is steeped in wonder with the corner of Star Wars that the Mandalorian and Grogu occupy. They're gonna have to nail this. They're not gonna be able to fan service that way.

Speaker 5:
[75:53] I think there's gonna be something about a fan service that's gonna piss somebody off.

Speaker 2:
[75:57] Could be, there'll certainly be something in there, but what I'm saying is not that that stuff won't be in there, but none of that stuff will save this movie.

Speaker 4:
[76:04] It's just harder and harder to stay positive. The stuff that we're seeing, aside from the second trailer, is just bonkers. Me and you were arguing about it, like what does success for the movie look like? How much did it cost to make this movie?

Speaker 2:
[76:16] Mandalorian and Grogu? A couple hundred.

Speaker 4:
[76:17] Yeah, because I'm like half a billion.

Speaker 5:
[76:21] Yeah, what's the brick for this movie look like?

Speaker 4:
[76:23] What do we say, Solo made a what, three some?

Speaker 3:
[76:26] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[76:27] It's gotta make more than Solo.

Speaker 3:
[76:30] I don't think it, there's a version of this movie that does not do Solo.

Speaker 6:
[76:34] And then what, if you are Star Wars?

Speaker 5:
[76:36] Production budget of 166.

Speaker 2:
[76:38] Oh, that's low.

Speaker 4:
[76:39] Oh, I mean 166 is.

Speaker 5:
[76:40] That's low?

Speaker 2:
[76:42] For a Star Wars movie?

Speaker 5:
[76:43] Yeah, kind of.

Speaker 2:
[76:44] No, no, kind of, my ass, that's low.

Speaker 4:
[76:47] Okay, but you think you could have made this for like 125?

Speaker 2:
[76:50] This is the lowest budget Disney-era Star Wars movie. That's a low budget for that movie. I mean, that's still a lot of money to spend on a movie, but that's a low budget for them.

Speaker 4:
[77:01] What do you think this movie got to make to break even?

Speaker 2:
[77:06] Of one, to break even, I don't know, because of all the cost that goes into it.

Speaker 3:
[77:11] What's the success for this movie?

Speaker 5:
[77:13] $350?

Speaker 2:
[77:15] $450? I mean, look, I hesitate to even talk about this. I more care about what they're able to do with the movie. Thunderbolts was a success to me, and the film didn't make a whole shit company.

Speaker 4:
[77:26] I don't disagree with you, but even if people like this movie, and it breaks, then we don't have Star Wars in theaters for like five years.

Speaker 2:
[77:34] Whatever.

Speaker 3:
[77:35] Because we have a Godzilla movie coming. It's not like-

Speaker 6:
[77:37] That's true. You know what?

Speaker 2:
[77:39] Star Wars projects out there that's getting made, no matter what.

Speaker 4:
[77:41] You know what, actually, and maybe that's the hang up for me is that it's not this movie. It's Starfighter, right? When this movie comes out, we'll talk about it, we'll watch it, it'll make however much money it makes. But when Starfighter comes out, and Ryan Gosling, I mean, I don't want to say he's the top of his game right now, but he's a big star in the world. His stock is as high as it's ever been. He's the man right now. That movie comes out and Star Wars and Ryan Gosling can't put you over the top, then it's time for a real conversation.

Speaker 3:
[78:13] If I'm going to be honest, I could see a world where Project Hail Mary looms a little bit large over the Star Wars project.

Speaker 5:
[78:21] You think so?

Speaker 3:
[78:22] Where people have such a connection to that movie now, emotionally.

Speaker 5:
[78:25] Sure.

Speaker 3:
[78:26] That to put Ryan Gosling back into space so soon, it's so soon. You don't be like...

Speaker 4:
[78:34] We say the greats back.

Speaker 2:
[78:35] We put people in the theater like, hey, I need at least six years before I seen this motherfucker back in space now. This shit is too fucking much. How does this get back to space?

Speaker 3:
[78:44] I'm in a rocket. Will Smith did it.

Speaker 2:
[78:46] Will Smith went to space every two years, brother. Went to space, this went to the future.

Speaker 4:
[78:50] You think they're going to put Rocky in Starfighter, like in the background?

Speaker 3:
[78:53] They might have to.

Speaker 2:
[78:54] That would be funny.

Speaker 4:
[78:54] That would be great.

Speaker 2:
[78:56] Put him in that bitch's pocket.

Speaker 4:
[78:57] You see some iridians in the background. That would be nice. That would be kind of cool, man. A few Disney, man.

Speaker 5:
[79:03] That's a great Easter egg. That's some fan service.

Speaker 4:
[79:05] That's a fantastic Easter egg. Rocky, question? That would be great.

Speaker 2:
[79:09] All right, let's get the fuck out of here. Guys, we have to be honest about how we felt about the movie.

Speaker 4:
[79:13] Tough.

Speaker 2:
[79:13] What the is this? Okay. Michael fucking Jackson.

Speaker 4:
[79:16] Come on.

Speaker 2:
[79:16] Here we do. Oh, you like that. Barry Gordy, guys.

Speaker 5:
[79:19] Barry Gordy.

Speaker 2:
[79:20] Barry Gordy. Barry Gordy, guys. Remember the name. Come on, Lee. And shout out to Mr. Gordy, who's still alive.

Speaker 4:
[79:26] Still in the lead.

Speaker 5:
[79:26] I wonder how he feels about this movie.

Speaker 2:
[79:27] In his mid to late 90s, he's still alive.

Speaker 4:
[79:30] Catherine Jackson is still alive.

Speaker 2:
[79:33] Changed the fucking world, Barry Gordy, dude. That's a wrap. Program reminders. Next week, The Midnight Boys will be continuing our reactions to The Boys, as well as Budmash, giving their thoughts on sorrows and Invincible Versus.

Speaker 4:
[79:42] I played Invincible Versus. Fun game. You would love Invincible Versus. Yeah, you would. Because it is-

Speaker 2:
[79:47] Thragging it?

Speaker 4:
[79:48] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[79:48] Is Thragging on the show this year?

Speaker 4:
[79:50] Yes. Yes. You've asked this a thousand times.

Speaker 2:
[79:51] Thragging's on the show this season.

Speaker 4:
[79:53] It is a 3v3 co-op.

Speaker 2:
[79:55] 3v3? Oh, okay. I like that.

Speaker 4:
[79:56] It is Marvel vs Capcom.

Speaker 2:
[79:58] Yeah. Well, 3, really, because 2- Well, in 2, there's 2 characters and you have an assist character, but this is a 3v3.

Speaker 4:
[80:05] 3v3.

Speaker 2:
[80:05] 3v3.

Speaker 4:
[80:07] You got the game bad, man.

Speaker 2:
[80:08] But on this season of the show, do they have Thragg? All right. Our producers today are Aleya Zenieris, Devon Baroldi, Jomi Adeniran on socials, and additional production by Arjuna Ramgopowell. Chuck, kick us out.

Speaker 3:
[80:24] Barry Gordy is a legend.

Speaker 4:
[80:25] Hell, yeah.

Speaker 3:
[80:27] Clayface is sad. Unfortunately, this Michael Jackson movie was very bad.