transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:04] I just had such a fascinating conversation with Professor Leslie John from Harvard Business School, who wrote a book called Revealing, and she's a behavioral science researcher, and she explores how strategic vulnerability and sharing personal information actually can lead to deeper relationships and professional success. And today, we translated that conversation into adapted revealing for young people. We talked about even as early as four and five years old, like how can you slowly help build this incredibly powerful skill in your kids? How do you teach disclosure and emotional literacy? Being a good revealer is so highly linked with emotional literacy and connection and relationships, and even good relationships with teachers. Like we went all the way through high school when we're trying to figure out like how an adolescent can navigate that sort of tricky experience of disclosing but not too much, and vulnerability but not too much, and transparency but not too much, and how for some people it's just a harder skill than for others. So we're talking about all of this and more. It's Dr. Aliza Pressman and this is Raising Good Humans podcast. I want to hear about your research in the context of the larger body of work that you do. Then I want to talk about if you're raising kids, and let's say your kid struggles with exposing themselves, disclosing, connecting. I feel like your research could translate really well into how parents could kind of bolster those skills out of the gate. Yeah. So maybe broadly talk about your work, and then we can translate it to parents. And also, it's not that this isn't highly important for connecting and having relationships in adults. We need that too as parents. But I kind of feel like a lot of people reach out to me, worried about helping their kids understand the balance and disclosure and vulnerability and connection and just feeling bad about sharing and all of those things.

Speaker 2:
[02:33] Like the kids feel bad?

Speaker 1:
[02:35] Yeah. Like kids who just don't have that skill. It's a real skill.

Speaker 2:
[02:40] Yeah, it is a skill. We're never taught it.

Speaker 1:
[02:44] People talk about it all the time or ask about it. I actually haven't seen research the way you do it. I know it's like a little of a departure to translate it in areas where you haven't looked at it, but I think it's probably quite translatable.

Speaker 2:
[02:59] This is awesome. I love it. This is where it's a perfect match because your expertise, you can put boundaries on what I'm saying and ask the questions and describe. Yeah, this is amazing. Let's do it. Yeah, so I wrote this book because I started realizing that we are obsessed with TMI, too much information, oversharing, and that's real. It's a real problem, but there's another problem that I increasingly have been thinking and finding it to be even more problematic, and that is undersharing. TLI, too little information. We didn't even have a word for it, but I've dignified it with a word now because it really is a problem. We suffer a lot when we don't share enough, and the more I learned and the more I practice revealing, the more I realized that even I, card-carrying oversharer, I identify as an oversharer, even I was holding back on the really important stuff. For me, the way it played out was I realized that my brand, so to speak, of oversharing was like saying self-deprecating funny stories about myself, which I still greatly enjoy, but that felt like almost performative, right?

Speaker 1:
[04:14] Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[04:15] And then when it was like saying hard feelings, I was not doing that. So in writing the book, I was pushing myself to do it more.

Speaker 1:
[04:25] I identify in that very way. That's where I can connect and share with people, but if it's like an actual reveal, I probably am not as good at that, but I'm very comfortable with, it's almost like pretend over sharing.

Speaker 2:
[04:41] Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1:
[04:43] But what happened culturally that kind of taught us that the way to get to know someone is, or rather the way in with people isn't to share?

Speaker 2:
[05:00] What went wrong?

Speaker 1:
[05:01] What went wrong that revealing feels like you don't get, I don't reveal myself until you've earned it.

Speaker 2:
[05:06] Yeah, which is a paradox because it's a catch-22. You'll never get close to someone if you never reveal anything. Yeah, that's a really good question. I mean, you can answer it on many different levels. I think one level that I, to answer it at, is thinking about the advent of social media, right? And that's where there really was all this oversharing, rampant oversharing, right? Like the many stories we can all tell of someone who vented, vented, that's being charitable, about their boss on their social media. And then, oops, their boss saw and they get fired, right? That's like all this not reading the room, oversharing and suffering for it. But I think we got, I think, I know so, I myself as a researcher got really caught up in that. Like I, the first 10 years of my career, I stood on stage and I would say like, we suck at privacy, like we share, we overshare, and we so harmful and identity theft and all this stuff.

Speaker 1:
[06:02] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[06:03] But then over time I realized, wait, I'm saying this professionally but in my personal life, I am doing BuzzFeed quizzes because I'm obsessed with them because they're fascinating. Tell me more about me. I have all of my passwords on a notepad on my computer. It was like I was living a double life.

Speaker 1:
[06:22] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[06:23] Then I did a total flip because I'm like, this stuff online, social media, it's not wrong, but it's not right. It's bearing the lead. It's missing the force from the trees. Because when I looked at my research over the first course of half of my career, the most consistent thing was that when I made people feel safe, when I made it fun, when I made it relational, they really want to share. And so people aren't stupid. There's a reason. And so then I've become since the past 10 years obsessed with the question of like, are we sharing enough? And can we share more? And how do we share? And how do we develop that skill?

Speaker 1:
[07:00] Okay. So I want to hear a little bit of how we develop that skill, because I imagine there's some people for whom it's quite natural, and other people know on top of the skill, they don't have the skill, it's quite painful. And so I'm curious about that for adults, especially because one of the issues, especially in parenthood, is the just loneliness of it all and isolation. So I would like to hear about that. But then I really want to talk about like, how can we develop the skill in our kids and distinguish between oversharing and the adaptive revealing?

Speaker 2:
[07:36] Yeah, I love the way you put that adaptive revealing. That's a good one. So there are a few problems, like a few problems to be solved to get to be a better revealer. The number one thing is awareness. So we walk through life on a daily basis, not even realizing the opportunities to share. We do not, it's such a fundamental problem that we don't even consider the possibility of sharing the thing. Here's a concrete example. So I started doing this on myself, these like disclosure audits where I would take out a sheet of paper and I, I've got scribbles all over mine, but I'm still going to do it here. And I would write said and unsaid. So I have two columns. One says said, one said unsaid. And I'd go through the day and just tick mark. So I wake up in the morning, rollover in bed. Good morning, Collie, is what I say. What I think is I slept like crap. When I don't sleep well, I can't regulate my emotions. Then we go into the bathroom, we're standing in front of the mirror, brushing our teeth. And what my mind is wandering and I think, wow, I feel older than I thought I would at this age. And I'm in my mid-40s. Why do I still have acne, damn it? You know, I'm thinking these things, and I'm not saying them. And the thought of saying them never even occurred to me. Still, I started being obsessed with these decisions. And so just that we're not even downstairs, we're not even at breakfast. It's four to one, four unsaid, one said. I don't know what the optimal ratio is. It probably depends on a lot of things. But what I do know is that if we consider saying the unsaid things more, we will share more and we will be better for it. Not sharing everything, but like you can see just in this example, if I'd only said to my husband that I didn't sleep well, he would know he's very compassionate, but he can't read my mind. He would know, okay, LJ needs kid gloves. If I had shared my feelings about my body, maybe we would have gotten a laugh at least, or I would have felt known and understood, which is a key source of intimacy. So you see these missed opportunities. So once you start being aware that you are actually making decisions, you're defaulting to silence, that is a choice. Once you become aware of it, you see more opportunities and then you can consider them more. So the first step is honestly just awareness of opportunities.

Speaker 1:
[09:54] When you say that, I'm wondering, is there a point at which you should say, okay, in this relationship, maybe I don't have to reveal as much. In this one, I need to reveal more. How do you assess which relationships need more revealing and which need fewer?

Speaker 2:
[10:15] For sure. It's directly correlated with the intimacy of the relationship. In a marriage, I think, I have strong opinions, we should be going for total emotional intimacy, which means, it doesn't mean say anything, it means you can tell them anything.

Speaker 1:
[10:31] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[10:31] Whatever. There in these contexts of emotional intimacy, of everything is on the table potentially, I think it's the errors we make are less of an issue of the content, we said the wrong thing, we said too much, rather the context, like the wrong time. If your spouse is doing something that irritates you, don't say it when the kids are distracting us and when we're stressed out. I think we don't think enough about the timing and the context that we're sharing. We ruminate about what the thing is. But then in colleagueships, of course, we don't want to tell. Of course, there are many things, that maybe most things, I'm thinking about my colleagues that I wouldn't tell them. But even still, in these situations, like what I have found, what I've found in research and experience, is that any level of relationship you have, I've been experimenting and going a little bit deeper, and I rarely cross the line. That's another thing, is it being a skill, we should experiment and practice and reflect. That's how we get better. If you never feel like you've crossed the line, you never feel, that might be TMI, you're not going far enough. It's one of my most fabulous mentors, Linda Babcock, she's an economist who studies negotiation, and one of her sayings with negotiation is, if you always get what you want, you're not asking for enough. I think disclosure is the same. If you never get to that cringe, you're not doing enough. So part of it, we should celebrate a little bit. The other thing is, if you do feel TMI, people can cringe and they can love you for it, right? And as I wrote the book, I realized so many of these like, I mean, yes, I love revealing funny, self-deprecating things, but the purpose of that, the purposeful answer to why I included it is because reflecting on these moments, I'm like, oh geez, people cringed, major disclosure hangover. But with perspective, I'm now like, yes, yes and, they cringed and they admired me for it because they became some of my closest mentors, right? But yet we fixate understandably because of psychology, we're human, on the cringe, the negative social feedback and we don't see the trust, the admiration, that's less apparent, so it doesn't register. Even if we really did say something a little offensive, it really crossed the line in that way, we often approach these things as if they're one shot, but they're not. Disclosure is a campaign, so you can stop by their cubicle later on in that day or stop by wherever they are, your colleague, and ask them how they're doing, how they feel. I have also been testing this, and most of the time from the way my psychology works is, I have thought I have offended them and I have not.

Speaker 1:
[13:20] Oh, yeah. Most of the time, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[13:23] So you may also learn, right? You may learn that actually, and then you learn more about the world, and if you did offend them, then you have a conversation and they'll love you for it.

Speaker 1:
[13:34] Yeah. So this is where I think this could be super helpful with young people.

Speaker 2:
[13:39] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[13:40] Because starting in school age, as you start to see that emerging adolescence, and then certainly into middle school and high school, I'm just thinking about the kids who come home and are spinning out about disclosures or what was too much, what was too little, or kids who are struggling with how to make friends. I think this is where it could be incredibly beneficial. Because I think there are some very talented people, and you tell me what you found. There are certainly very socially talented people who just intuit what is the balance of great revealing and disclosures, and what's like, okay, this person can't handle what I'm about to say. I'm going to adjust. But how do you teach young people this skill?

Speaker 2:
[14:35] So, I don't know. My children are four and five, so I'm evolving. But I do, of course, know science, the science we know about it, and I practice stuff, hopefully in age-appropriate way, all the time with my children.

Speaker 1:
[14:53] I'm curious, even with four and five-year-olds, is it on your mind because research, you just can't help yourself.

Speaker 2:
[14:59] It is. So, one, okay, so this research blew my mind, which is that they videotaped the faces of preschoolers, like three and four-year-olds, and they videotaped their faces as the children were watching some scary movie. And so they wanted to see how much expression, how much do children let out naturally versus like keep hold it in. They also measured galvanic skin response, so how sweaty their hands were. So a physiological objective measure of stress. And you can see where I'm going here, right? Because the more people, the more the children let it out, the less stressed they were. Put differently, the ones that held it in, they were more physiologically stressed. And then this is what like, oh, boy, mom, they followed them, they followed the little guys, the little guys and girls. And once they, for like a year or two, and by the time they reached kindergarten, there were now gender differences. The boys were holding it back. And so as I learned about that research, I had a four-year-old right then, and it really struck me hard. And so maybe, it might be I'm swinging the pendulum in the opposite, like too much, because I'm, how do you feel? How are you feeling? And this is how I feel. Although I think I'd rather overdo it than underdo it in this case. But I think that another thing I've realized, so I'm especially trying to help them share their feelings because this is also science, as in something I actually know, which is that revealing, being a good revealer, being able to share your feelings requires emotional literacy. And that's something I realized with myself as I wrote the book, that the reason why I'm sometimes not sharing my feelings is because I don't know what my feelings are. And so revealing is like the superficial issue, right? It's a matter of understanding yourself. And so I am trying to nurture that in them. And I am crazy impressed by them. I mean, they're my kids, obviously. I'm impressed with my children. They're the best. But my little four-year-old, he said, I love you, but sometimes I don't like you.

Speaker 1:
[17:20] Oh my God.

Speaker 2:
[17:21] I know. And then I'm like, Oh, Tyler, that's amazing. I was like too excited. He's like, I was supposed to be a criticism mom. But like, you know, I only learned to, it was actually as I was writing the book that I learned to, I knew the science of labeling feelings and all this stuff, but it wasn't until I wrote the darn thing that I actually did it. And I remember being with my therapist, fetching about something. I don't know what it was, but he said, he kept saying, how do you feel? How do you feel? And because I kept saying like thoughts, cognitions or how I thought other people thought. And then finally I, the psychologist said to him, what is a feeling? And then he gave me an emotions wheel, which is an, as you know, it's an amazing tool to help you get more in touch with your inner state, help you articulate, understand what your emotions are, help you gain emotional literacy. And I thought, wow, I'm in my 40s and I'm learning the difference between like the shades of anger, like that there's rage, frustration, like I'm only and if it would be amazing if my children could do this from a young age and the fact that they love you but not like you, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. So yeah, but I'm only at the toddler stage. Oh, another thing that I've been experimenting with, I realized that, I realized this in myself, which I would guess is common in parenting, but I don't know, you would know, where we tend to not, we tend to hide our frustration, unless it's about our children, but like if we come home from the office and it was a really hard day, we had a hard conversation, we feel down, we don't actually say that to our children, at least not children that are four and five. And I started thinking like, maybe there's an age appropriate way to share this because if I never share this, then when they feel frustrated, they're gonna think that there's something wrong with it. So, and they're so perceptive, right? So like one day Oliver's like, what's wrong mom? And normally I'd be like, it's great, like I'm so happy to see you. And then I was like, no, no, I feel really preoccupied because I have a deadline tomorrow and I'm stressed about it. And then I felt better. And then he was like, okay, like he didn't feel, it's almost like you're gaslighting someone when you-

Speaker 1:
[19:39] Totally.

Speaker 2:
[19:40] Right?

Speaker 1:
[19:40] Yeah. In fact, I would say like first, my kids were three and six when I got separated. And I was like very aware of the naming your affective state to the extent that they can handle it, but not more than that so that you don't gaslight them. But I was definitely like, I'm not gonna tell my tiny little things that I'm really having a hard day because my marriage is falling apart. But I definitely, that was my first sort of like challenge at that age, but I took it to such an extreme because like who cares what I know, you know, like when you're in the moment parenting, the academic or intellectual side is like-

Speaker 2:
[20:25] When you're in the trenches, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[20:26] Yeah, that and a dollar. But I remember all the way until my oldest was probably nine, I was so guarded about sort of some of the stuff that was going on internally for me because I just wanted to protect them so much. But of course, they're intuitive human beings. And then I had this realization where I was like, well, I have blown this. So I will impart this on people with younger kids because mine are cooked mostly. But I said, I was really upset about something. I was very clearly upset because everything was a mess and there was just something that was going on that was upsetting me. I don't even remember what it was. And I welled up with tears as I sternly said to clean up. And my oldest looked at me and she was like, you don't cry. Wait, what's going on? And she was so freaked out by it. And I'm like, I was like, oh my god, I'm so sorry. Yes, I do cry. I can take care of myself while I cry. And I am just like, this is just my body physically responding to my feelings, but you do not need to worry about me. And I'm so sorry that you did not know that I'm a person who cries. Like, ugh, what a dumb mistake I made.

Speaker 2:
[21:52] It's completely understandable. I think it's like, we think that hiding is protecting.

Speaker 1:
[21:57] Yeah. And it was such a weird thing because, of course, you don't want to say to your kids, like, I've had such a hard day, make me feel better. I don't know if I can handle this.

Speaker 2:
[22:06] Right. I know for sure. It's a balance of how you share.

Speaker 1:
[22:11] Yeah. But certainly, like, I had a really hard day at work, so if I seem a little distracted, it has nothing to do with you. Like, why wouldn't you disclose those things? I learned that lesson when my kids were too old, so I think it's great that you're talking about the youngers. Then, of course, they're going to learn that you can reveal those feelings, figure out what they are, even to name them. But also, it's not end of days if you're having them.

Speaker 2:
[22:41] Exactly. The world doesn't come to an end. I'm curious, how did you handle talking about divorce? Or maybe that's a road you don't want to go down.

Speaker 1:
[22:54] No, no, no. I don't know that I have, but I don't mind.

Speaker 2:
[22:59] What if your ex is being completely obnoxious, like holding that, of course, you don't want to ruin the dad's relationship. So you tell me, I'm very curious.

Speaker 1:
[23:12] Well, certainly, I can't say what somebody else should do, even if there's research. Research is so clearly like, it's like make sure that you take care of yourself and you're regulated and you don't hold the kids in different directions and argue and have contentious stuff going on. So we were trying to abide by the big research. Yeah. I was very lucky that my ex-husband was like, you're the developmental psychologist, so you tell me how we tell them. But I was also thinking in my head, there's no real rule book for this.

Speaker 2:
[23:49] That's also putting a big burden on you, right? Like, the micro, we don't know the micro answers so often, right?

Speaker 1:
[23:55] We don't know the micro, of course not. And everybody, I think my whole industry has micro answers. And if it makes people feel better to have micro answers, like, sure, we can make them up, but they're not actually the answers.

Speaker 2:
[24:10] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[24:11] But for us, we sat down with them, and we just said we were drawing, and we said we had something really hard to tell you, and told them that we were not going to be married anymore, but we were still going to be a family. And I remember my oldest was like, she burst into tears, like, I'm going to cry now.

Speaker 2:
[24:31] I know, I know, me too.

Speaker 1:
[24:32] She was like immediately aware of what that meant.

Speaker 2:
[24:37] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[24:37] Even though she didn't know what divorce was, like, she knew this is bad, whereas my little one kept drawing, but then she looked at my older one and then she cried just because of, like, knowing those cues. Which then, of course, I did tear up, but I tried hard to, like, that probably was the last time I cried in front of them until the time that I was pissed off about the house being a mess. And I remember just wanting so much to make sure that I told them what was going on, but didn't, and I was very clear. I was like, we aren't gonna, this isn't something we're gonna do and then change our minds about. Yeah. I didn't want them to have hopes. Hope. Yeah. So, and we never, we agreed never to speak ill of each other. I'm sure that that, if you asked my kids though, they'd be like, you didn't, like you weren't so perfect at that, but we certainly tried.

Speaker 2:
[25:32] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[25:32] And still very much do try. I mean, when your kids get much older, it's easier to make jokes and like, you know.

Speaker 2:
[25:41] Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[25:43] But we try not to like truly bag on each other. It might be just like the way you would with a sibling. Just like be needling. Yes. But I think that was like my, like I revealed to them in that moment because I had no choice because they were impacted.

Speaker 2:
[26:01] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[26:01] And then I really didn't, you know, I was like, if you have any questions, and I checked in with them every once in a while, but I definitely wasn't like, let's keep talking about this.

Speaker 2:
[26:12] Yeah. Well, I don't know that that's the right move either, because then it feels like pressure, right? If kids feel like they're pressure to talk, they're not going to talk, right? Like the asking questions, you know, they just shut down.

Speaker 1:
[26:26] Yeah. And they have different temperaments. So like one had a lot more questions over the years than the other. The other one was sort of like-

Speaker 2:
[26:33] Interesting.

Speaker 1:
[26:34] And so I think that's also just like who's more curious, who's more sort of internally processing things that are like more deeper kind of. But it's certainly, I couldn't speak to how their dad shared with them or anything. But I do think it's interesting. And then when I got remarried, my current husband is not so, you know, like he's a widower. But he is like not as, he's much more open with adults. Like he's learned through going through that experience that that is the only path forward. Oh, yeah. But I don't know if that was like with the kids, I think it was probably different. I want to tell you about Great Wolf Lodge, where you can get an adventure for the whole family. Essentially, you have an entire vacation all wrapped up under one giant party roof. They have lodges in 23 places across the country, and you can just pack up the car and go. They have an indoor water park, so it doesn't matter what the weather is. It's always 84 degrees in the water. There's a wave pool, a lazy river. They've got water slides including ones. Every age group can enjoy it together, and they have other adventure packed attractions, like the action game that kids can play throughout the lodge to the Northern Lights Arcade, and there's just a gazillion different dining options, all of it under one roof. You can bring your pack together at a lodge near you. Learn more at greatwolf.com and strengthen the pack.

Speaker 2:
[28:25] When we started talking about teens and disclosure or school-age children, I was wondering whether, when you were saying like they come home, people, children will come home from school and they're like, I don't know if, ruminating about what they said. Is it more like, is it in real life convoes or is it also social media?

Speaker 1:
[28:43] I would say it's much more in real life. Because I think on social media, that's a whole other bag.

Speaker 2:
[28:49] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[28:50] Because you go with whatever trend is happening in your era of social media, but what are ninth graders, 10th graders, 11th graders, college students? What bubble are you in for revealing? I'm Gen X. I'm not revealing anything on social media. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[29:08] I don't get it still. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[29:09] Yeah. I'm on social media, but not for real feelings or anything.

Speaker 2:
[29:16] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[29:17] And just more for like either work or social updates for the kids, I mean, for family or whatever.

Speaker 2:
[29:27] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[29:27] But I probably wouldn't pop on and talk about anything deep.

Speaker 2:
[29:32] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[29:33] But that's quite different for even millennials and Gen Z. I think it really depends on what is acceptable. You're probably an elder millennial.

Speaker 2:
[29:46] I am. What am I? Yeah. So it depends. I'm an 81er. So it depends.

Speaker 1:
[29:52] Yeah. You're real cuspy.

Speaker 2:
[29:54] I'm cuspy and I do not identify as a millennial. So yeah, it's funny. It's funny. I don't know what I am.

Speaker 1:
[30:03] But I think that sort of changes because I do think millennials to me, and this is just an observation, no idea. But I think millennials are better at revealing things than Gen X. I think Gen X is like...

Speaker 2:
[30:16] I could see that.

Speaker 1:
[30:17] Especially positive emotion, like being proud of yourself or any of that stuff. I'm like, that is disgusting. You know, like my inside voice is saying that even though I'm so, I'm like, power to you, women, like be proud.

Speaker 2:
[30:30] Yeah. Well, that's cool that you don't judge, like you're not cringey when other people do it.

Speaker 1:
[30:35] Just for me. I'm never, I'm like thrilled and excited for people. I'm just more like mesmerized. Like I'm on Safari.

Speaker 2:
[30:43] Like who is this strange alien who can do this? Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[30:46] Did you ever see Amy Schumer has like a skit out that it's like a bunch of women talking to each other and then they see either her and they ask her how she is after they've been self-deprecating and just like, I'm trash, I'm disgusting, you know, I'm exhausted or whatever. And then there's one woman who's like, great, things have been amazing and everybody's head explodes.

Speaker 2:
[31:10] I love it. I love it. So I have a dear friend and colleague who's, he's probably, yeah, he's like early 50s and he, he thinks that, oh my God. So to him, the definition of bragging is saying anything positive about yourself.

Speaker 1:
[31:30] Yeah. Like, I have a job.

Speaker 2:
[31:35] Yeah. I'm feeling happy today.

Speaker 1:
[31:38] I'm not a crappy mom. Like, I can't even imagine saying that. You braggered.

Speaker 2:
[31:44] It's so him. I'm like, you are, and I'm like, I want to free you of that because like I'm maybe a hybrid. I'm kind of in between. So praise is interesting because I think that praise is something that we massively undershare and it's something that is like when people like, how can I share more? I'm not so comfortable telling my most embarrassing stories like you, Leslie. One, I think a low-hanging fruit is praise, telling someone that you, I don't know, I just flight attendant yesterday, I love your lipstick. People appreciate that so much and it makes you feel good, it makes them feel good, but we don't say the praise often, right?

Speaker 1:
[32:27] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[32:28] So I've been on a praise campaign recently. So speaking of children, what is the acronym? It's a kind of therapy, PTIC, parent-child, PCI-

Speaker 1:
[32:41] Interaction therapy.

Speaker 2:
[32:42] Yes, PCIT. Yes. We did that with one of our children. Well, now we do it all the time and it is so amazing.

Speaker 1:
[32:51] Did you have someone in your ear?

Speaker 2:
[32:53] Yes. Yes. My understanding of it as a non-expert in this area is that there have been clinical trials and it is legitimate. It actually works. But I'm curious what your take is.

Speaker 1:
[33:10] Yeah. I think what's interesting about it is that it very much leans into positive and specific noticing and praise.

Speaker 2:
[33:21] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[33:21] Culturally, right now, in the parenting, non-clinical ethos, is that a thing?

Speaker 2:
[33:29] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[33:33] There's warnings around praise.

Speaker 2:
[33:35] Interesting.

Speaker 1:
[33:35] Because I think in this shift of more gentle parenting, I'm not into trendy parenting things. Because I'm like, what is this rooted in? But I think in that case, it's rooted in helping kids find their authentic selves without needing to be people pleasers, or look for the praise from people. Oh, I see.

Speaker 2:
[34:03] Interesting.

Speaker 1:
[34:04] I think parents have gone the other extreme of being afraid to notice something good. So of course, if you're looking for behavior change, paying attention to the things your kids are doing well and what you want to see more of is going to be incredibly effective. I think there's a camp of people talking about parenting where it's like, I'm not looking for compliant kids, so what do I need to do that for? But I think in that, sometimes I'm very much just looking for compliance, I'll admit. But I think it's gotten so extreme that parents are afraid to even praise it all because they're like, well, I don't want them to perform for me or think they have to please me. And it's like we're now missing these great opportunities. I mean, if I don't praise you when I meet you, like if I don't explicitly say something cool about you that I've noticed, whether it's the length of your eyelashes or the way your voice sounds or whatever.

Speaker 2:
[35:03] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[35:04] I'm like, it's a flag.

Speaker 2:
[35:07] Yeah. A flag that you don't like them or that?

Speaker 1:
[35:12] Because I notice, if I think something nice, I say it. If I'm not saying it, but I will say it, like I was careful with my kids not to just say like, you're the most beautiful thing I've ever seen and the smartest thing I've ever seen, obviously, things that are out of their control. But I do think what got lost in that was what you're talking about, which is where parent-child interaction therapy lands.

Speaker 2:
[35:42] Interesting. I see that the people pleasing is, I can see that argument, but I guess my pushback on that is, and now that you say it, I'm thinking of specific, it's interesting having, well, one of the wonderful things of being a parent is like the new friendships, the mom friends. And it's interesting seeing everybody has slightly different styles. And now that you're saying it, I'm like, oh yeah, some of our friends, we got to push them and we got to, and they're not super praisey. And they probably think that Colin and I are like just so push over. But I guess to me that I don't want them to be seeking to please me, but I wonder whether the way around that is not to not praise, but rather to think about what you're praising.

Speaker 1:
[36:32] Totally.

Speaker 2:
[36:33] For example, praise like this is so like we literally we're now we're like hippie emotional people. No, I shouldn't say that. Probably got that. But like we we literally praise our children when they regulate their emotions.

Speaker 1:
[36:46] Yeah, because that's a value you have.

Speaker 2:
[36:48] Yeah. And like, I love that you learned that about yourself. Like, yeah, self-discovery. And so I think that, yeah, you can maybe that's that's something I take home. I've just found this PCI. So it's fascinating how like it's if your listeners aren't super aware with it, it's like the key thing that I took away from it is is you have this special time, five minutes a day with your kid. It's five freaking minutes. And it's so transformative where in the five minutes they choose a task. This is for smaller children, like blocks or some quiet activity. And your job is you cannot ask them questions, you cannot give them commands. All you can do is you have to play with them. You can narrate what they're doing, narrate what you're doing, and give them label praise. That is a specific praise. And there's even like us Type A people. It's amazing. There's even quotas you have to meet, right? In five minutes, it's something like you have to get 20 of these in, which means that you actually have to be constantly... You have to pay attention. Pay attention, and you have to be constantly saying something in order to get the quotas.

Speaker 1:
[37:57] Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[37:58] But that's not how you do all day, every day, but these five minutes, they're so nourishing. The child feels like so loved and so seen. And then they're also more compliant and better listeners during the day. Their cups are full because...

Speaker 1:
[38:11] Their cups are full.

Speaker 2:
[38:11] Sometimes you do need compliance. Yeah. Anyways, I digress on the praise, but praise also enables you... Praise is also really important, just like with grown ups. You know, praise is the key to giving critical feedback. You can't just give someone critical feedback if you haven't prayed, because they get defensive. You need to mostly have praise. People talk about the ratios, right? It's like minimum five praise to criticism. Adults are like that, children are like that.

Speaker 1:
[38:42] Even when you were talking about the five minutes, it's powerful even through adolescence and probably with partners, though I don't know that anybody has done research on that. But just because especially as they get older, I mean, my kids have a thing like I'm constantly talking about logistics. I'm so annoying. It's like my love language is logistics. But so I often have to shut that down and just keep reminding myself, like for 10 minutes, I'm not, this is particularly effective at school pickup. You know, like I'm just, I'm not asking the questions. I'm not making any demands. I'm not planning out the logistics. I'm not figuring out how much has to get done later. I'm just available. And I think it matters. It really never ends that. That really is effective, but certainly with littles. I just think, and I think, what did you call it? Praise, appraise? Well, now I can't remember. Campaign?

Speaker 2:
[39:52] Yeah. Praise campaign, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[39:54] Appraise campaign. But I love that because I do think we've kind of overcorrected and gone away from that.

Speaker 2:
[40:03] Interesting. I also think coming back to the point, so the question of how school-age children, teens, how do we help them develop the skill of revealing wisely and help them? And emotional intelligence, I think, is a big piece of that. But what does the day-to-day, and I think you hit on something that maybe is pretty important, which is that giving them the space. So instead of it being like at dinner where it feels more structured, like, what did you do today? What was the good thing or bad thing? Which, I mean, that's nice too. But if you're in the car and it just feels less high stakes, if you're just signaling, so for example, with my kids, we're only four and five, but instead of me listening to talk radio, I turn it, I don't, and I just sit there in silence, and then at some point, they say stuff, right?

Speaker 1:
[40:54] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[40:55] And so this desire to fill the silence is really helpful because they'll then talk to you. And so you doing that, signaling to your children that you're teens, that you're available, I think is really important.

Speaker 1:
[41:07] And so what do you find, like, and I know it's so cruel to say to a researcher, like, translate something that you have done research on into a context that you haven't, because we're not taught to, to like translate that way. But people do it all the time who don't have the expertise. So I'd rather hear it from you.

Speaker 2:
[41:30] Yeah. I feel the same way, like it's interesting this whole journey of like now being on podcasts is, I feel the exact same way. It's like, we don't have perfect answers because we can't do trials of everything. But we do have an informed guess that smart listeners are, they will use what resonates and ignore what doesn't. So, okay, the question is, what have I found in my research that we may be able to apply to children?

Speaker 1:
[41:58] Yeah, to children and adolescents who can get like a leg up getting this skill earlier.

Speaker 2:
[42:05] Okay, so one thing I think that would translate is, if you think of like forming friends and how that can be really hard for anyone, I think that sometimes, maybe I'm just projecting, but I can be socially anxious, especially I'm going back to when I was a teen. I was so nervous, I was so shy and socially anxious. I do think like I also did not have emotional literacy. As we've discussed, I only started gaining that in my 40s, but like I think if I had had a stronger toolkit there, I would have been, that would have been better. But if you just kind of address this anxiety, the social anxiety of having friends and feeling judged and what do you say? I think that this is where the magic thing is to say, like it's not that you need to pitch yourself to be a friend. You don't need to persuade or sell yourself. All you need to do is be interested in other people and ask them questions. When I'm in situations where I feel socially anxious, I'm meeting fancy new people and I don't know, feel insecure, like what do I say to sound smart? It's gone now because I just ask them questions. And it turns out when you ask someone a question, they like you. Like the more questions you ask, the more people like you. And so you don't need to perform. Just try to be like just, nothing is ever just. What are you curious about, you know? What would you love to know about this person? And then another trick would be finding an area of similarity, right? That's a key. We love people who are similar. And it can be the most silly form of similarity. Like, oh, I'm missing a button off of my shirt. And you are too. Like those things are like weirdly bonding. So those are maybe some tips.

Speaker 1:
[43:54] Those are great. They are because, again, there are some kids for whom this comes very naturally. And they just sail through socially. But most kids, it's awkward. It's awkward. So even knowing that questions aren't annoying, they're usually received well. And I mean, I was thinking about, like, I'm interviewing you and you asked me about how I told my kids about their divorce.

Speaker 2:
[44:25] You can cut that if you want. I'm sorry. I was just very curious.

Speaker 1:
[44:29] But I think, like, the truth is, you asked it in such a curious way that my brain was like, oh, yeah, I wonder. I haven't really thought about that in a while. And there's, you could, you could see a world where that's like a heavy question to, to ask. But if, I think curiosity, like, genuine curiosity is so receivable. Is that a word?

Speaker 2:
[44:53] It's so receivable and it's so, it's hard to fake, right? It transfers. It just reads as real when it is real. So, I think it's easier to think of it as like, what am I actually curious about as opposed to like, hmm, what am I going to say to make this person my friend, right? That's the way to not make friends.

Speaker 1:
[45:10] I think that's a really good tip. It is. It's stressful to do it the other way. It's totally a great question to ask yourself, what am I actually curious about? Because there's like a range of topics on the planet Earth that people can get into. So, let it be something you're curious about.

Speaker 2:
[45:29] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[45:29] I think it is so important the work that you do for adults and for certainly women in the workforce and for humans in general. But I really believe it translates beautifully to young people who do not, this is not in the category of skills we develop. I just think like everybody panics about AI, everybody's panicking about all this, and these skills that you're talking about, they feel like whoever kind of knows those, like really embodies those is going to just thrive.

Speaker 2:
[46:02] Because that's what makes us different. The stuff that is most differentiating from AI is the stuff we should get really good at, and I think this is one of them. Yeah, totally.

Speaker 1:
[46:11] Is there a gender difference while I'm just just giant stereotyping?

Speaker 2:
[46:15] Yeah. Did you say while you're just gently stereotyping?

Speaker 1:
[46:18] I love it.

Speaker 2:
[46:19] Yes, there is. I mean, yes, women are more comfortable revealing than men in general. But it's as usual, these things are quite complex, right? It's also a product of norms of society, of culture where women are expected to share more. Women are expected to be warmer, part of sharing almost anything you share, with the exception of unethical shady things, but almost anything will make you be perceived as warmer. We expect women to be warmer. Which is interesting too because it presents a potential challenge for men as well. Because while I'm a huge feminist, I also do recognize that, okay, well, if the world doesn't see revealing as male, if I look weak as a man, that's something that's interesting that we should grapple with too. It's both an awesome thing that we reveal more, that it's safer for women to reveal more in that space, but it's also a curse because if we don't do it, then we're viewed as cold, so it feels like we don't have a choice.

Speaker 1:
[47:28] Now, is it safer for women with women? Or is it received differently?

Speaker 2:
[47:35] So this is again where the rigorous science, there's too many variables. But in terms of what the science has shown, there's complexities in the mismatch of gender. And one factor that actually really matters in cross-gender is, assuming this is old school work, it's a heterosexual world, which is that when beautiful women share to men, the men are in awe. But I don't know if it's more liking or just if it's like, I want to be in their pants or actual respect. So they didn't measure that. I have so many follow-up questions. But the attractiveness is less important when you're, I think it maybe goes away entirely when it's same gender. And so I think the finding is women with women, share, that's the most highest disclosing, which rings true to me, right? Female friendships, again, because it's like warmth. When you, like as a professional person, you don't want just to be perceived as likable. You need to be respected, which requires people to think that you're confident and assertive and competent. And we know also the hydraulic nature with women. Sometimes when you, like, if you're perceived as warm, people, women, when we judge women and men, we judge, and when men judge women, implicit beliefs that if she's warm, she therefore must be stupid and vice versa. In fact, one year in my teaching evaluation, so I was teaching MBAs, this is when I started. This is now, I don't even read my evals anymore. What I do is I give them to, I give them to this amazing teaching coach and I say, please analyze these, tell me the useful constructive things and throw every, and all the praise obviously, and throw everything else out.

Speaker 1:
[49:26] That is such a great way to get feedback.

Speaker 2:
[49:29] It's so good. It's changed my life. So back in the days when I did read them, I got these two, I had two sections of MBAs and it's like counterbalance. Like you always teach, there's no, it's not that I teach one first. They're basically the same is what I'm saying. They're the same makeup of students. It's all the same. Sorry MBAs. And yet one of them, I scored super high teaching rating, the other super low. And when we, the qualitative comments, the super high score was, we love, like Professor John is so smart, we just wish she would smile more. Basically competent, but not warm. The other said, we love her, we want to hang with her, but she's an idiot. No. It was like, I'm like, oh my God, I'm the same person. It must have been like some micro thing I did, and then some influential person in the section decided, and that's how they coded me ever since, right? But yeah, like the question I think of for women of how do we do it in a way that makes us admired, not just liked, that is competent and warm. I'm thinking of my friend, Alison, for Gail. I don't know if you've chatted with her.

Speaker 1:
[50:40] I just met her and she's so awesome.

Speaker 2:
[50:43] Yeah, totally. I love it. So likable badass is the term I think, likable badass. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[50:50] Which is how to be a good parent, by the way.

Speaker 2:
[50:52] I think so, yes.

Speaker 1:
[50:54] Same thing, warmth with limits and competence.

Speaker 2:
[50:57] Totally. With women, if we don't have warmth, we need, this is the way the world is for like it or not. You've got to be warm, but then you can be assertive and then people don't think you're a bitch, and that's how you become admired. What does that mean for disclosure? Well, it means warmth isn't praising people a lot, being warm, but also when you have to say hard things, like saying it in a developmental way, I would say. One of the things that I have internalized is, so I'm at HBS, I'm the official bad guy, in that I am in charge of the Academic Performance Committee. So when the MBA students, I know, when they get, that's what I thought at first, but I actually really love it, because it's so interesting, like.

Speaker 1:
[51:46] Oh.

Speaker 2:
[51:47] It's so interesting. And you really understand the students, all the different struggles they go through, the different categories and the different, it's really fascinating. But, so I'm the one that when they get enough bad grades, they have to petition to stay, and then my committee can decide, you know, what's, whether they have to take time off or whatnot. Anyway, so I've had many conversations with them, with students having to tell them things that they do not want to hear, basically. And what I initially started, the way I initially was running these things, is that I would come prepared, and I would say, they come and they're like, why am I getting kicked out? Or why am I, whatever, being reviewed? And I would be like, this is the reasons, right? And that never went well. They got defensive because they're human. And so I completely changed my approach. Now what I do? I sit there and I just listen to them. They ask me, they're like, why am I here? And then I deflect, I'm like, well, how did you experience your first year? And I just keep, they know why they're here because they got bad grades. They don't need someone to be condescendingly-

Speaker 1:
[52:51] To remind them.

Speaker 2:
[52:53] Right, especially like a woman. I know, that's the world we live in, sadly, but I have, so I sit and I listen and I'm genuinely intrigued, because again, I'm curious, like what were the things? And then after that, so that's like the first, like the 90% of the meeting is that, which I used to think of as this is like filler, there's nothing productive happening, but that's everything is sitting and listening and letting them be heard. Because then at the end, I've heard them out, they feel like I understand them, and then I can say, well, how can I help you? And then we get real, right? So I should tell Alison, I've been thinking about her a lot recently because I'm working on my assertiveness and my likable badassery. So I have many stories for her. Anyways, I'm talking your ear off. I'm sorry.

Speaker 1:
[53:39] It's late. I really like that. And I think it translates again to parenting, especially as you have to give.

Speaker 2:
[53:46] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[53:47] In fact, it's the same thing. When you, let's say your kids' grades were just slipping like crazy, you could come in and just get angry about it and or criticize or point it out like as if they don't know. Right. But getting curious gets you a lot further.

Speaker 2:
[54:06] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[54:06] And then you just said it so beautifully. Like when you say, how can I help you? You're saying, I'm on your team.

Speaker 2:
[54:13] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[54:14] Like we're in this together. Let me be here for you versus we're against each other, which I think is the tone that set up.

Speaker 2:
[54:22] If you're like, if you start saying, this is all you've done wrong.

Speaker 1:
[54:25] Yeah. Yeah. So that's really interesting. I actually think these are all translatable, even if it's not traditionally like a parenting thing. I just think it is. Now, I have one last question about revealing. Yeah. I wonder what status does to the revealing for you, or for the parent-child status difference, or with peers? Being revealing and disclosing something, is that a way to disarm people?

Speaker 2:
[55:00] Yes, completely. And I don't know why I was thinking of Anchorman. It's a scientific fact. I feel like Anchorman would say something like that. But it is a scientific fact. So in real companies, they get leaders to randomly assign them to do normally what we do when we try to get constructive feedback from team members, employees, is say, please tell me what you honestly think of me. I can take it, okay? The other version is they get the leaders to go first, as in share something that the leader themselves is working on. So I'm working on my organizational skills. I'm working on my time management skills. Say, be proactive, which again is something that as a leader, like it's often not the instinct to like reveal something that is your weakness. But this is like assuming you're like established in the company. And so what they found and then they measured, did the leader actually get constructive feedback? And it was the version where it was when the leader showed that they could take it by revealing that that got people to open up. The one just saying, hey, I can take this, be honest, people like.

Speaker 1:
[56:07] No, you can't.

Speaker 2:
[56:08] No, you can't. You think you can, but you can't. And then we have found in our research too, that when leaders in, when they, you know, in a metered way reveal their, some of their weaknesses or things they're working on to their teams, their teams trust them more, they're more motivated to work for them. It humanizes you. So yeah, now strategies are different when you're in a low status. And most of us every day, we shift up and down. Like if I'm talking to the dean, I'm lower status, if I'm with students. And so modulating our disclosure is important as well, being very cognizant of the status dynamics.

Speaker 1:
[56:42] And so how do you modulate disclosure?

Speaker 2:
[56:45] So one, again, is awareness, like what, where am I? Is this a job interview where I'm trying to impress the person, I'm super low status, like relative to them, they have power over me and I want to impress them. Okay, in that situation, I need to be very careful. But whereas the leadership situation, you have a little more latitude. But even then, when we are in these low status situations at work or elsewhere, I have found that there's still a place, there's still a benefit to being a bit more open. But a bit more open in that situation is different than a bit more open when you're the revered CEO.

Speaker 1:
[57:24] Right.

Speaker 2:
[57:25] And there one way to think about it is transparency versus vulnerability. So transparency is like sharing your thoughts as they occur. Like telling someone your thinking process. Vulnerability is riskier, more rewarding but riskier, which is sharing your sensitive thoughts and feelings. And so transparency is a much safer go-to. If you're asked in an interview, what is your biggest weakness? Or some or your boss says, hmm, you've been quiet lately in meetings. Well, a vulnerable way of answering that, which I don't advise, would be, well, I'm feeling really insecure and I'm worried that my thoughts aren't, my ideas aren't good and I'm ruminating like, TMI. But also, being defensive is not good. That's, or not saying anything. Transparency there might be a good go-to because what a transparent answer would be to that, to, I noticed you're not speaking as much, speaking much in meetings. You could say, oh, well, the way my mind works is that when I have time to process what's going on, I'm actually able to be a more, add more value and articulate things better. So sometimes that's what I'm doing, right? And then it's like, now, something that seems like a critique, you're not speaking much, is actually super badass, the way you said it, because you're like, no, no, no, I'm thinking and I'm only sharing the things that are actually useful.

Speaker 1:
[58:55] Yeah, that's great.

Speaker 2:
[58:56] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[58:57] I, again, think that's translatable, especially as like for teenagers, as they're learning how to navigate relationships with teachers.

Speaker 2:
[59:06] Totally.

Speaker 1:
[59:07] You know, like I think about that too, just like I kind of am fascinated watching which young people believe that teachers are there to really get to know and to really learn from, and which ones think of them as just untouchable, you know? And I think giving tools to kind of learn how to get to know. I mean, the truth is when I was in college, you could not pay me to go up to a teacher or go to office hours. And I'm so mad because like, it's a missed opportunity. It's such a missed opportunity. And I think that it starts, like if you can suck the marrow out of the educational experience that you're getting and realize that teachers are not for the most part there for the fantastic benefits. It's really because they want to do this. So that's why I think it's easy to translate. Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, go ahead and write a little review. It really does help get it out there. You can go to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen and just click five stars, write a little sentence about what you liked and I get a thrill, and it helps put this work out there. Also, don't forget to sign up for my sub stack, factoralizapressman.substack.com, and of course, you can join every month in my premium sub stack for less than a cup of coffee. I guess if the cup of coffee is made at home, it would be more than that, but less than any other cup of coffee, $4.99. Have a listen. Go ahead and join us. We have really great conversations. It's a small group. It's once a month and we talk about whatever's on your mind.