transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:10] Hello and welcome to Shelf Respect, the book podcast focused on both craft and cast of fiction. I'm Knox McCoy, and join me as always, two people who put the sprung in spring, it's Jamie Golden and Erin Moon. In this episode, we will be reading, talking, and discussing which literary characters are responsible for provoking spring or sexual awakenings, however you interpret that, that's up to you, within ourselves and our listeners.

Speaker 2:
[00:32] But before we get to your fictional spring awakenings, we are celebrating spring at our company with a very fun free $0 thing. And it is our spring gift guide. All you have to do, click the link in the show notes, and it's yours. Listen, coming up, we've got Mother's Day, Father's Day, graduations, people weirdly born this time of year. What are we doing? And at some point, you're going to need a gift for one of those people. Or maybe you need a gift for yourself, for your own mental health. And we have a spring gift guide just for you. And if you're listening on our free feed to this episode and wish that you could become a hardback, well, my friends, the spring gift guide might have what you're looking for. You can stag 90 days of being a hardback by finding our special Shelf Respect spot in the guide and using that link. Now, Becoming a Hardback gets you every episode we make, including recent ones like our Footnotes conversation about the new Harry Potter show, published books with AI, and the Amy Griffin debacle around her allegedly stolen memoir The Tilt that has gotten weirder anyway. There's also every book we've read and DNF since last September, our first odd reader out episode where Erin and I try to get Knox into fanfic. We have Booktender, Trope Detective, our best reads of 2025, and much more, plus all our notebook book clubs. Plus, to be honest, you just get a solid gift guide. So head to noxenjamy.com/springgiftguide, or hit the link in the show notes.

Speaker 1:
[01:54] Okay. So we had a little pre-recording conversation. When we say, I mean, I think people got it from the Instagram post, what Spring Awakening means, right?

Speaker 2:
[02:05] Right, right. Well, because I think I used the word sexual in the caption.

Speaker 1:
[02:08] There you go. So even better. So that's what we're going to be discussing today. And I think we've done this on the podcast, and it's a little bit straighter of a line, because it's like, oh, visually, I can point to this moment. I was really interested in a literary kind of conversation because I think that can happen in a variety of ways, and especially because you're not able to see a visible manifestation of a character, it can get kind of weird, depending on who, not weird in a bad way, weird in just an interesting way. So I'm excited to see where the conversation takes us, because before, like when we were thinking about this episode, were you guys aware of who or what did this for you, or did it take the prompting of this episode, Jamie, to be like, oh, I know exactly who this is?

Speaker 2:
[02:52] No, I knew exactly who it was, and it's very disturbing who it is. But then on the reflection, it's like, yeah, that makes perfect sense. Because when we say sexual awakening, we just mean you go from not a girl, not yet a woman, right? It's that moment of, oh, what's that feeling? And it can be flutters, it can be front bottom shivers, whatever your life is. But it's just that moment where you're like, oh, am I into this not because of the character development or the plot? That I'm into this because I might be into you, specifically? And so for me, yes, unfortunately, I did know.

Speaker 1:
[03:31] Erin, I'm going to ask you, and you can go ahead and segue right into your actual answer after you give us that answer, the first part.

Speaker 2:
[03:37] I mean, there were several, actually. But I didn't really think about this until I thought about this episode, because this person that I have identified as the very first one, I was like, I don't know that means anything, or it's very indicative of my current tastes. And that person is Logan Bruno from the Babysitters Club.

Speaker 1:
[04:05] Oh, okay.

Speaker 2:
[04:06] Logan Bruno is originally from Kentucky, so he's a Southern boy. And he moves to Stony Brook, and he's a sweet, little, charming Southern boy in godless Yankee territory. He is very secure in his masculinity because he joins the Babysitters Club as an associate babysitter, which, Knox, I mean, I know you know this, Knox, because you are obviously a reader of the Babysitter Club books, but Jamie, that just means he would be willing to take on a babysitting job if none of the other baby, like the full member babysitters. First of all, B word, I'm Claudia from way back. Okay, I didn't know. I just didn't know. No, I wasn't trying to speak to you. I just wanted to let you know. I hate Kristy from the beginning. Why would you hate Kristy? Kristy's an a-hole. Kristy's the only one who knows what she's doing. Kristy's not bossy, she's a boss. No, Kristy is the only one with any kind of vision, obviously. Wait, you love Stacey. I do, no, I love Stacey. I know I'm a Kristy. Like, I know that deep in my soul. A natural leader. Yeah, sorry. Sorry, we're getting stuff done. I apologize. Listen, she's a B word to everybody in her company. No, she's not. She's just, she's driven. She's focused. She's so stubborn. It's like Claudia just wants to be creative. Yeah, do you think that is going to be a great model for a business? I actually never connected to any of the babysitters, only Claudia because she had snacks in her room, and that's the only thing that I had a problem with her. That was so great. But Logan is very, like, first of all, he's blonde, which I don't particularly, like that's not what I gravitate to normally. But he's pleasantly flawed, like he's an athlete, but he doesn't always make great decisions, but he almost always is like, you know what, I'm going to make the right decision this time because I'm a teenager, I'm a preteen, I don't know what I'm doing. I do appreciate that he has like a little violence in his past. He flirted, I don't know if y'all remember this, but he flirted with joining the Stony Brook Middle School gang, which was named the Bad Boys, and that's B-A-D-D-B-O-Y-Z, obviously, as all criminals.

Speaker 1:
[06:20] Source material for the Will Smith movie, I believe, wasn't it?

Speaker 2:
[06:22] 100%, yes. But he, you know, obviously. I've heard the president talk about the Stony Brook gang and how problematic they are. Yes, the Bad Boys, they are, yes. But he realizes he doesn't want to ruin his life by being a criminal, even though, you know, stealing. They were stealing CDs and stealing concert tickets, but he does the right thing, and he drops those friends, and they actually get arrested.

Speaker 1:
[06:44] Now, if he was doing that today, stealing concert tickets, we'd be like, power to the people.

Speaker 2:
[06:47] Yeah, we'd be like, yeah, let's take Live Nation down. So anyway, in the book, he's described as looking like Cam Geary, who is Marianne's favorite actor. Since this was about early 90s, I had always pictured Logan as a blonde Ryder Strong, which, you know, that was- Which is the River Phoenix, or no? Like a little River Phoenix-ish, but Ryder Strong from Boy Meets World, Sean, Sean, what's Hunter?

Speaker 1:
[07:19] I don't remember Sean's last name, I just remember Sean.

Speaker 2:
[07:21] Yeah. You know, floppy hair, a good plaid, like pullover. The whole thing, I loved it, so great.

Speaker 1:
[07:30] Now, I will say, if I, as a parent, if there was an organization like the Babysitters Club, and I called and they were like, hold please, and they were like, hey, everyone's busy, but we do have Logan, a 13-year-old who did flirt with becoming a bad boys.

Speaker 2:
[07:47] But he did not, and now he can help children realize their true path, which is a way for crime.

Speaker 1:
[07:54] As a father, I'm like, I'm just trying to get a date night. I'm not, this would be like being like, you're gonna get a Jonas brother, and Frankie shows up. And I'm like, I thought I was getting a babysitter.

Speaker 2:
[08:04] Logan is actually a very good babysitter. Frankie would be a better babysitter than Joe, I'll tell you that. Yeah, that's true. That's probably true. Jamie, what about you?

Speaker 1:
[08:13] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[08:14] Okay, mine is the same vibes, just a normal character in a normal book that fits with your sexual orientation in every way. And mine is, of course, and again, context. I did not read books as a child, okay? So I did not read books as a child. We are not a reading family. We can read despite being from Alabama, but we do not read because, and I asked my mother, I was like, why didn't we read more as kids? And she was like, we had that player piano and two TVs. And so that was her theory of that. That was enough entertainment we did not need to read. And so mine was of course Snoopy from the Peanuts comments.

Speaker 1:
[08:54] Okay, what about Snoopy specifically?

Speaker 2:
[08:55] Listen, okay. So we have, Snoopy and I have a lot in common. Okay, first of all, rich inner world, who maladapts daydreams better than me, nobody. And so he's flying in World War I, you know? He's a novelist. It's a dark and stormy night. I also like to daydream of things that I will not accomplish. And so there's that very funny, Snoopy's a funny, Snoopy's a funny dog, okay? More in a physical way than me. That Erin's more the physical comedian, accidentally than me for sure. And then dramatic. Thanks, butthole. I know. Dramatic, but not mean-spirited, okay? Sarah J. Mast fans excluded. I'm pretty mean. But you gotta be in my inner inner circle to hear how mean I am really.

Speaker 1:
[09:44] I don't think you do. I don't think you do.

Speaker 2:
[09:47] Fair, fair, fair. I'm a lot meaner in my inner, that's what it is. So Snoopy would balance me out in that, and would be like, okay, you need to take it down a notch. But he also has qualities I am attracted to, still to this day. Like I am attracted in a confident person, okay? I like a guy that's a little, like a whiff of self-centered. Like I do like that. I genuinely do. And I like that I prefer my men to have the full range of emotions because I do not. And so we get Snoopy being lonely, being jealous, longing for the girl Beagle. I am the girl Beagle. Does the girl Beagle have a name? No, she did not have a name, I don't think. Maybe you can find out if Charles Schultz had a name for that. And to be honest, Snoopy loves people with big heads. They're a little mean to them. And again, as we've been on record for 14 years of podcasting, I like when they're a little mean to me, you know? A little submission of all the things, you know? And so it just fit, it fit. I hated it because there was nobody else. What's the actual human boy in the Peanuts comments that I'm gonna be attracted to? Right. There's not a lot of options.

Speaker 1:
[10:59] Is it Freddie? Who's the one that plays piano?

Speaker 2:
[11:02] The blonde?

Speaker 1:
[11:03] Linus?

Speaker 2:
[11:04] No, it's Linus. Schroeder.

Speaker 1:
[11:06] Schroeder, that's something.

Speaker 2:
[11:07] Schroeder, the situation that is, he's gonna always want to play piano. All the time.

Speaker 1:
[11:12] Do you think it's interesting that your sexual awakening was an individual that can't talk, that cannot talk?

Speaker 2:
[11:20] Well, you know I like that too. You know I kinda like that too. Now, to be fair, his voice was, you know he does that, blah.

Speaker 1:
[11:27] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[11:27] And so. No, do it. And so.

Speaker 1:
[11:32] And his voice.

Speaker 2:
[11:32] That was Snoopy? His voice was done, I know. His voice was done by a name, I think it's Bill Melendez, and who did his voice for 50 years, even in the most recent stuff, like they used old recordings of him. And he was also an animator. And he, they just sped up his voice, but he's a very hot man with a mustache that won't quit. And to little baby Jamie, when she's reading the Peanuts Encyclopedia, I'm also involved. I'm like, oh, look at you. You're young and hot in the 50s, with a big old mustache that I'm into now. So Snoopy Girlfriend update. We have a couple of things here. We have Belle. Belle will often pop up in the Flying Ace adventures as a nurse, which is... See, okay, hair dye.

Speaker 1:
[12:23] Love it.

Speaker 2:
[12:23] It feels very sexual. I know. Role-playing. And then there's Fifi, and Fifi is the poodle. Oh, no, no, no. And listen, poodles are great. Every time I've ever thought about getting a dog, that's, and dog experts say, poodles are the best dog. They are the easiest-going, they don't shed, they're faint, but they're so... They feel real elitist, and they feel like they're looking down at me, but literally and figuratively, and I can't get down with that. Well, that's your competition for shooting.

Speaker 1:
[12:56] So when we give Bruce our doodle, when he gets a haircut, you just can't cut, he's a golden doodle, you can't cut a doodle in a way that's cool. It goes down to the bone, and it's poodle cut, and it's what it is for a few weeks. And whenever he comes home, the impulse to voice him like, father, where is my dinner? Like, it's too big, it's too great, because it is so elitist.

Speaker 2:
[13:23] That's also the other thing about Snoopy, is I'm so glad Snoopy really doesn't have a voice, because that could have been so easy for them to include. Also, he's got a baddie best friend. Woodstock's a baddie best friend, I love anybody with a baddie best friend.

Speaker 1:
[13:34] You know?

Speaker 2:
[13:34] The bird. The bird.

Speaker 1:
[13:36] What's the bird's name?

Speaker 2:
[13:37] Woodstock.

Speaker 1:
[13:37] Yeah. That's a good one. That's good taste, because Snoopy's the most enduring character of Peanuts, even more so than Charlie Brown, I would argue.

Speaker 2:
[13:45] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[13:46] Okay, so I've got three. Yeah, you do. One is obvious, easy. One's more emotional. And then one is, I would not share this unless this was for my job. And this is a free or this is a paywall episode?

Speaker 2:
[14:02] No, this is free. So, welcome to Spotify.

Speaker 1:
[14:06] All right, that's what that is.

Speaker 2:
[14:08] Bravery, bravery in the face of adversity.

Speaker 1:
[14:11] So, first up, Veronica Lodge from the Archie's Comets. Obvious, easy. Yeah, it's a no-brainer, not very complicated. The emotional one, this is Leslie from Bridge to Terabithia. This was like the first book I read where I loved the character. She kind of broke my heart, and it was just like the gut punch moment. As a reminder, she was a fast runner, which is very important to me at that age. She got straight A's.

Speaker 2:
[14:40] As we know.

Speaker 1:
[14:41] As a reminder, in the talent show, the talent I showed was running really fast across stage, and no one talked me out of that. No one even said, you sure you wanna do that, bud? They just let me do it. She ran fast, she got straight A's, and there's a part of the book where she goes to church, I think with Jess and his family, on Easter, and she's like, I liked it, but I got a lot of questions. I don't understand how this works exactly. I was like, that's sick, I like that. So Leslie from Bridge to Terabithia, the weird one, and if you know, you know. And I don't know, Celia, it's just one of those things when you're a kid and you see something provocative, it's just like your system doesn't know how to react. And this is the topless sunbather from the original Where's Waldo collection. Okay, there's the topless sunbather, and from what I've seen, like it got removed, like people complained, but it's...

Speaker 2:
[15:35] Okay, wait, okay, wait.

Speaker 1:
[15:38] So she's like...

Speaker 2:
[15:38] I'm looking at it.

Speaker 1:
[15:39] Yeah, we'll include a link in the show notes so you can see it. Like sunbathing and she's on her stomach, but like a bratty kid is like touching her with ice cream, which is causing her to raise up. And you can see probably, I don't know, Jamie, maybe you can comment on this, 10% nip, like 10% nip. Yes, I would say 50% nip. Yeah, that's like the most radical thing I saw, outside of when I would turn on HBO and look to see stuff through the scrambled reception, just like looking to see some action there. It was revolutionary.

Speaker 2:
[16:12] Okay, but I do have some questions. And she's wearing a cheeky bottom too. There's 40% cheek coming out. Also, a couple of things. This does look like a 71-year-old woman who gets a bad blonde hair job.

Speaker 1:
[16:29] I'm gonna introduce you to the world of pubescent boys.

Speaker 2:
[16:33] It doesn't matter. It doesn't, I know. Because listen, I had a friend many, many years ago, because we were in a conversation, this was before our brains were even developed in college. And I was aware of my body and was like, I just don't think guys, I think I have a weird body. And he was like, they don't care.

Speaker 1:
[16:50] Don't care.

Speaker 2:
[16:50] They don't care. They don't care. You have breast? Great. That's all they're looking for. Like, you'll be fine. And it was actually such an encouraging thing to be like, oh, and I stopped being self-conscious about all of it, because I was like, okay, yeah, this works, this works.

Speaker 1:
[17:03] I think it's also the way the discovery happens, because you're just a kid in the world, and you're trying to find Waldo, and you're focusing, and you're going quadrant to quadrant, because that's the system you've developed, and once you clear a quadrant, you move on, and all of a sudden, you weren't here to do anything weird. All of a sudden, you see some titans, and you're like, what is happening here? What's going on? It was wild. I didn't expect that to be there.

Speaker 2:
[17:32] It's so interesting that they added, and it's so fascinating, because everybody's watching, and everybody's a little genetically unhinged in these drawings. You've gotta draw so many people, so you're like, we gotta go.

Speaker 1:
[17:44] There's six million per page. You're not gonna get the Leonardo da Vinci.

Speaker 2:
[17:47] But it's also the ice cream moment of the sexual hot versus cold. There's an element there. It's like an ice cube.

Speaker 1:
[17:55] Are you saying you don't like that it's a white ice cream cone on her back and a little boy smiling?

Speaker 2:
[17:59] I like a cold, like, you know.

Speaker 1:
[18:01] I'm saying make the metaphorical leap.

Speaker 2:
[18:02] You're talking temperature play. That's what you're talking about. Temperature play, I'm talking temperature play.

Speaker 1:
[18:05] I'm talking fluids. This is a white ice cream cone.

Speaker 2:
[18:08] Oh, got it, got it, got it, got it, got it.

Speaker 1:
[18:10] It's not great.

Speaker 2:
[18:11] And it's an extension of his body.

Speaker 1:
[18:13] It's a phallic symbol. It's a phallic symbol, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[18:15] Guys, this is terrible. I will say, I have been doing the Where's Waldo situation with Cyrus. He likes to pull those out every once in a while. And there are a lot of kind of like, should we read the Cyrus book? I don't really know if that's a good idea. There's some like, you know, like a native woman who's maybe not as covered as she needs to be. And some men ogling her. Listen, in this image that we're going to link to, I've got questions about...

Speaker 1:
[18:47] Are we going to link to it? Do we need to link to it? I don't know if we need to link to it.

Speaker 2:
[18:50] 100% are going to link to it. Claire is going to be very happy. I'm going to link to it. Listen, there is a, what appears to be a black man with one eye. What's that about? All the white men have two eyes. I don't like that. It's weird.

Speaker 1:
[19:04] It's a weird thing. Erin, is there like one page in the Wordswell dough that Cyrus, I'm good. I don't need you to do this one with me. I like to keep this one for myself.

Speaker 2:
[19:14] Is that how it was laid out with Jodie, your mom? No, there's not really any that I remember that he was like.

Speaker 1:
[19:19] He's just a sweet baby boy. He's just a sweet baby boy.

Speaker 2:
[19:22] He's just a peaceful guy. He told us the other day that he can't be aggressive in La Crosse because he's just a peaceful guy. That truly is precious. I don't think he's looking at dirty pictures in the Wordswell dough books.

Speaker 1:
[19:34] Just check under the mattress.

Speaker 2:
[19:35] Okay. I'll-

Speaker 1:
[19:37] Just never know.

Speaker 2:
[19:38] Maybe do that.

Speaker 1:
[19:39] Never know.

Speaker 2:
[19:39] Don't do it. Don't ever check. I'm never going to do it.

Speaker 1:
[19:45] Okay. I felt like I was a lot more vulnerable than you guys were, but that's okay.

Speaker 2:
[19:48] Hello. I said a dog. I said a dog. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[19:52] A voiceless dog.

Speaker 2:
[19:53] A voiceless dog. You're my perfect man, truly.

Speaker 1:
[19:59] Yeah. I think we need more from Erin, honestly. I think we need more from Erin.

Speaker 2:
[20:02] What do you mean, like a football player in a book of tea? I'm sorry. I'm very basic.

Speaker 1:
[20:06] I mean, we could- A matinee idol star who babysits and almost joined a gang? I'm sorry, ma'am. I need a little more.

Speaker 2:
[20:11] She's in a group of women and supports them in their reading habits? Sorry. I apologize.

Speaker 1:
[20:16] Okay. Well, let's go to the listener comments then, because we've got a lot of great comments to talk about. First up, Vanessa Cypert. All Enneagram ones know the correct answer is Atticus Finch.

Speaker 2:
[20:28] I think this is Gregory Peck blinders. I think, yes, Atticus Finch is a moral tower. He has emotional fortitude, etc., etc. But I do think that the Gregory Peck of it all transcends. He's just too hot. He's just too hot. First of all, that's absurd. No, it's not. Hot book Atticus Finch. You got emotionally intelligent. Again, I agree. Fighting racism. Kind. Principle. And you think he's hot too on top of all of that? Listen, did he join the Bad Boys? Probably not. No, but listen, the Stienar...

Speaker 1:
[21:04] No, he prosecuted him.

Speaker 2:
[21:06] The thing I'm interested in is that Vanessa probably felt this way at eight, about a 40-year-old father. Okay. You know what I mean? Like, that's how she felt. But like, they're very... He just has a deep trust and respect for community.

Speaker 1:
[21:21] See, I actually... I was surprised to see Enneagram Ones would claim this. I thought Atticus Finch is like a type B girlie dream of just like, they cannot know what time it is and can't find their charger.

Speaker 2:
[21:31] Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 1:
[21:32] And he's like, don't worry, I'm shooting rabbit dogs, I can handle a gun, I'm prosecuting injustice, protecting civil rights. I've got your charger. You need to hydrate.

Speaker 2:
[21:42] Listen, Enneagram Ones, they don't want an organized husband. That's part of the kink. They get to do it. And then they're like, I told you what time to be there. In case you wanted to know what one kinks are. Sorry that I got you all riled up while you listened.

Speaker 1:
[21:58] Sorry, y'all. Okay, next up, Mirage Noel. A toss up between the terrible guy representing Hosea in Redeeming Love or Jack Ryan in The Hunt for Red October. My strict homeschooling parents were firmly against any teenage romance, looks longingly at Chrissy Miller, but child abuse and F-bombs were fine, I guess.

Speaker 2:
[22:15] First of all, Michael Hosea, put some respect on Michael Hosea's name, even though he is probably abusive and not really a great guy. But this is Todd Spencer. Todd is who she's talking about from the Chrissy Miller series, and his screaming blue eyes. I think she actually made a better choice in Michael Hosea and Jack Ryan over Todd Spencer. So I always get, when anybody mentions Chrissy Miller, I always think they're talking about Chrissy Hedlson, which is from the Chrissy Book by Catharine Marshall. Yeah, different. And it is different, and she has to choose between the pastor and the doctor, the doctor who's agnostic, and she does make the right choice by choosing the agnostic doctor, because you're living in Appalachia. A preacher's not going to do you any good, okay, in the hills, okay? You need the doctor. Dr. McNeil's from Scotland? You're talking about a Scottish accent? And he can do a trach, pull for a farmer, and save his life.

Speaker 1:
[23:10] That's so good. Listen, I want an agnostic doctor. I don't want a fundamentalist doctor.

Speaker 2:
[23:15] I don't want a Christian chiropractic neurologist.

Speaker 1:
[23:17] I'm sorry. I don't. No disrespect.

Speaker 2:
[23:21] But I always, so Christy Miller, was it a series of books? Like, was it a lot of books? Yes, it was this, it was the Christy Miller series. So it follows Christy. She is a like 15 year old, and she's just learning about growing up and trying to love God. And like, but she has this huge crush on Todd. He's a couple of years older than she is. And Todd, we like are made to think that Todd is like the ideal Christian man. But he's also a terrible communicator. He is also like emotionally unavailable. He like leaves her, he's like, hey, I love you in all of this, but God has called me to go into the mission field. And so I'm gonna go to like a remote island for two years. And if God brings us back together, God brings us back together. And you're like so devastated for Christy because it's all she's ever wanted is for Todd to love her and he doesn't love her like he loves God. And it's so hard. Get a personality, Christy. Well, right. And then, so she does, she does get a personality. And then she goes on a mission trip. And then all of a sudden, like when she's in college, and then at the very last minute, her mission trip where she's going gets canceled and she has to go to a different place. And when she gets to the airport, she lands and guess who greets her at the airport? He says, Kilikalina, which is her Hawaiian name. And she hears it through the airport and they're like, oh my God, God brought them back together again. Oh my gosh. And then they get married and she has a dusty rose nightstand that she paints. It's very sweet and tender, but also it's ridiculous. And Jack Ryan is a much more valuable player here. Jack Ryan. I'm not going to be in the 1850s with a farmer named Michael. Like, that's not what I'm doing. Although Michael Hosea is hot. No, Michael Hosea is obviously very hot. Yeah, he has very broad shoulders, I think. And that was the first book, like Christian book I read, that I was like, oh, that's sad. Yeah, they did. Knox, were you on the redeeming love train?

Speaker 1:
[25:17] No, I was not.

Speaker 2:
[25:19] Do you think that we should, I think that should be our next odd reader out. We should make Knox read Redeeming Love.

Speaker 1:
[25:24] How long is it? Is it a long book?

Speaker 2:
[25:26] I mean, it's a novel. Like 250, 250, 300 pages?

Speaker 1:
[25:30] Maybe if we do like the first half or like first 100 pages, I would do that 100%.

Speaker 2:
[25:34] Well, because you would like the fact that it's based on the Book of Hosea, which is an allegory for God and Israel, right?

Speaker 1:
[25:41] Yes, I did connect that part, but then you-

Speaker 2:
[25:44] But the Jack Ryan of it all, look, that's my ideal situation.

Speaker 1:
[25:47] Who's your Jack Ryan when we're talking about Jack Ryan?

Speaker 2:
[25:49] Oh, Harrison Ford.

Speaker 1:
[25:50] Because we have Jim from The Office, we have Ben Affleck, we have Chris Pine, we have Harrison Ford.

Speaker 2:
[25:55] Oh, wait, I forgot. Oh, we don't have Harrison Ford. No, that's a different-

Speaker 1:
[25:58] Oh, yeah, we do.

Speaker 2:
[25:58] Oh, we do, right? Oh, no, it's Harrison Ford.

Speaker 1:
[26:00] That's my Jack Ryan when I think about that.

Speaker 2:
[26:01] It's Harrison Ford. It wasn't Chris Pine because Keira Knightley was in that one, and I felt like she ruined it, because she was like, I'm not just a damsel, and then the whole time she's a damsel. But no, it's for sure Harrison Ford. Jack Ryan's the right choice because, look, it's for sure not Jim from The Office. No, absolutely not.

Speaker 1:
[26:19] No, that's a studio system plant. No, thank you.

Speaker 2:
[26:22] Yeah, that's Emily Blunt being like, please hire my husband to do something. But I like Jack Ryan because he's like, he has a job that takes him away a lot of times, and he might die, but when he's home, he's hot. But then he leaves again, and I like that.

Speaker 1:
[26:37] I like the metaphor of struggling in a submarine, geopolitical struggle under the surface. So we don't got to read and hear about all that. Y'all just handle it in the Atlantic, and then just let us know how it went, okay? I don't like having to everyday check and be like, how's it going today, guys?

Speaker 2:
[26:56] I don't need that access. That's not for me. That's right. That's for someone with a stronger mental health capacity.

Speaker 1:
[27:00] I don't want it. Let's go back to dearest Elizabeth. Things went poorly at Gettysburg today, and that's my news.

Speaker 2:
[27:08] And I am fascinated by Mirage, Noelle's reading list by their homeschooling parents. Yeah, that's very interesting. That's a fascinating reading list. I would have definitely thought that Christy Miller would have been at the top for that. Yeah, I wouldn't even thought Hunt for Red October would have made the cut.

Speaker 1:
[27:27] Well, it feels like that's like stole that from the shelves because my dad read it or something or my mom read it. Yeah. Okay, let's get even more interesting here with Christian literature. Priscilla G. Terry, Aslan, from the Chronicles of Narnia. Thanks for clarification, Priscilla. I understand that this is a problem.

Speaker 2:
[27:44] Such a problem. No, it's not. Yes, it is. No problem. What's that main do?

Speaker 1:
[27:49] Embrace debate, I think, isn't being attracted to God the best kind of worship you can do.

Speaker 2:
[27:54] If you're St. Teresa of Avila, yeah. She wants to have an orgasm when she prays, so that's very Priscilla. Aslan literally can't be tamed. That's my vibe. I like that. Like, solid head of hair, not... Now, here's the problem. I would give anything for a conversation between Aslan and Jamie.

Speaker 1:
[28:11] Oh, man.

Speaker 2:
[28:12] Yeah, because I would obey. Like, you know what I mean, dear God?

Speaker 1:
[28:16] Oh, no, I don't like that.

Speaker 2:
[28:17] That went weird. The only problem is lions as a rule...

Speaker 1:
[28:20] So dog and lion, very adjacent, very interesting.

Speaker 2:
[28:22] The only problem is I've learned from TikTok and short clips about lions, that male lions are not monogamous, and they do kill the cubs if you already have a baby.

Speaker 1:
[28:32] And they're kind of good for nothing. I don't think they do most of the hunting either, do they?

Speaker 2:
[28:36] Yeah, they don't. Yeah, they're kind of trash. And they just show up to help with the baby, but they're going to kill the baby if they show up and you already had a baby with somebody else, they're going to kill that cub.

Speaker 1:
[28:46] I mean, that's kind of consistent with Aslan's character in the Chronicles of Narnia. I'm not going to show up very much. I do think if you were into Aslan, you had like anti-daddy issues. You're looking for an authority figure who's capable and effective, but not really available and mostly ambivalent beyond like a few grand gestures. Did he sacrifice himself? Yeah, but it's not very impressive when he knew he was coming back. So that's my hot take on Aslan. Just Aslan, don't worry.

Speaker 2:
[29:12] Underneath that is a discussion of Knox's thoughts about religion.

Speaker 1:
[29:17] Aslan, he's the Don Draper of Narnia, and people don't want to talk about it.

Speaker 2:
[29:22] That's what the money is for.

Speaker 1:
[29:26] Okay, next up, Coco Creed. That's a great name. In true, I can fix him. No, really, I can form that followed me into my 30s, Calvin of Calvin and Hobbes had my heart.

Speaker 2:
[29:35] I freaking hate Calvin. Who likes Calvin? No, men do.

Speaker 1:
[29:40] Why do you hate Calvin?

Speaker 2:
[29:41] Calvin is so effing chaotic. He is such a manic pixie girl for the boys, and it drives me crazy.

Speaker 1:
[29:50] Well, is Calvin getting a little misremembered or memory hold because his image was taken and turned into Calvin piss on? Because I don't know that the character of Calvin was like, I would like to piss on dot dot dot.

Speaker 2:
[30:03] I don't think it's irrespective of his character. Calvin was either bored or overstimulated. He was like, I'm in trouble. Let's talk about this philosophy. Like he's constantly pitching you some philosophical overthinking. I get that that's a vibe for a lot of men. But very chaotic, so emotional. You need to calm down.

Speaker 1:
[30:24] Yeah, our boys can't be emotional. Let's stomp that out of them.

Speaker 2:
[30:27] Why don't we thought, Hobbs, grounded, patient, very witty sense of humor.

Speaker 1:
[30:33] Again, another animal figure that won't talk back to you.

Speaker 2:
[30:38] I'm just so unsure about what this is revealing.

Speaker 1:
[30:41] Jamie Silent Kink has entered the chat.

Speaker 2:
[30:43] I do enjoy it. Keep it to yourself. Keep it to yourself. She doesn't want to hear it. I don't want to hear it.

Speaker 1:
[30:50] Do you think, is Calvin and Hobbs, do you think this is a shared universe with Toy Story? Like with Woody and Buzz and all those people? Because it feels like similar rules and stuff.

Speaker 2:
[31:00] But the people in Toy Story don't know that the toys talk, right?

Speaker 1:
[31:04] Well, Sid does. I tell you that, Sid does. Sid remembers. Never forget.

Speaker 2:
[31:09] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[31:09] Ruined his life.

Speaker 2:
[31:10] That's right. You're right. Maybe Sid and Calvin are actually friends, or maybe Sid is Calvin.

Speaker 1:
[31:17] Maybe. Okay. That would make sense. At least they are Xbox buddies, you know, like they play the same Xbox.

Speaker 2:
[31:23] Yeah. Again, Coco Creed said, I can fix him. No, really, I can. Which indicates he's a problem.

Speaker 1:
[31:30] Yeah. Yeah. All little boys are problems, and that's okay, you know?

Speaker 2:
[31:36] It's okay, you were a good boy, Knox.

Speaker 1:
[31:40] I think at the top of this episode, we proved I was not. So, and that's okay.

Speaker 2:
[31:44] Look at it, dirty pictures and where's Waldo books?

Speaker 1:
[31:47] I wasn't seeking it out. It found me, Erin.

Speaker 2:
[31:50] Yeah, no, of course. It found me. Literally, you were seeking it out.

Speaker 1:
[31:53] Now, did I keep that book? Yes, I did. I did.

Speaker 2:
[31:55] Did I keep it in a secret place? I sure did. But who cares?

Speaker 1:
[31:59] Gen X and Thriving. I fell hard for all the greasers. Pony Boy, Dairy, Soda Pop, Johnny and Dallas. I just wasn't into 2Bit. I guess I figured, why choose even at 13? I had different characteristics to love about each of them. I must have read that book 50 times in junior high. Mm, good times. I didn't say that. That's her writing that.

Speaker 2:
[32:17] Yeah, she wrote it. But I do feel like you said it the correct way, which was, listen, I do think, God, there is something about the outsiders. Oh, the outsiders, yes. Like the greasers, the socks, although the socks were like, you just didn't even think about them, because there were too many greasers to pick from. It was like a fun... I was trying to think who was I, but I actually think 2Bit was probably the most stable of all of them. And maybe that says something more about Gen X and Thriving, that you didn't want the stable one. He teased people, but he was very loyal. He was very dependable. Even when things were hard, he was kind of the voice of reason. And then maybe Soda Pop would be my second runner up. 100% Soda Pop. Yeah, probably. Oh my gosh. And then the Rob Lowe. Oh, in the movie? Give it to me. Yeah, give it to me all the time. Freaking loved it.

Speaker 1:
[33:08] I don't know. I'm really kind of torn because I don't know if I, if it's the infusion of my toxic masculinity, but I hated this book. And I was like, people don't act like this. Guys don't act like this. And obviously different times, 60s versus 90s, early 2000s. But I have a hard time believing even in the 60s, people were like, that's so earnest with each other and physically laying all over each other, like they're portrayed in this book. That always kind of stuck out to me.

Speaker 2:
[33:41] You're literally Pony Boy. You are the full embodiment of Pony Boy.

Speaker 1:
[33:49] What does that mean? What are you saying?

Speaker 2:
[33:51] Thoughtful, what does it mean? No, it's a compliment.

Speaker 1:
[33:53] If someone said, stay gold to me, I'd be like, please, with respect, shut the up. What are you saying?

Speaker 2:
[33:59] No, he loves movies, he loves reading, he loves learning, he's academically, he's the smartest in the group, he's very thoughtful. These are all your, he thinks about complex issues, like class conflicts, you know what I mean? Like you're that, that's who you are.

Speaker 1:
[34:20] I don't think I'm a pony boy.

Speaker 2:
[34:21] You have to lay on a boy to be pony boy.

Speaker 1:
[34:23] I would like, I prefer not to, if that's possible.

Speaker 2:
[34:26] Thank you so much.

Speaker 1:
[34:27] Who was Tom Cruise in, was he 2Bit? I don't remember who 2Bit was.

Speaker 2:
[34:31] No, 2Bit was Emilio Estevez.

Speaker 1:
[34:33] Ah, okay, gotcha, gotcha.

Speaker 2:
[34:34] Tom Cruise was.

Speaker 1:
[34:36] Cause Matt Dilla was Dallas.

Speaker 2:
[34:38] Was Dallas.

Speaker 1:
[34:39] Swayze was Derry. And C. Thomas.

Speaker 2:
[34:42] Tom Cruise was Steve Randall.

Speaker 1:
[34:44] I don't even know who that is. I just don't know, his teeth were so jacked up in the movie.

Speaker 2:
[34:47] They were so messed up. But Dianne Lane was Cheri, so hot. Very, very hot.

Speaker 1:
[34:54] I might have should have mentioned her at the beginning of this.

Speaker 2:
[34:56] Man, Dianne Lane for real. Dianne Lane is just epically hot in every era.

Speaker 1:
[35:02] She really is.

Speaker 2:
[35:03] Congrats to her.

Speaker 1:
[35:05] Okay, Amy Suka. It is not exactly literary, but my sisters and I were obsessed with the Rice Crispy Boys, spelled B-O-Y-S. And Snap was my first crush. My first book crush was King Tyrian? Tyrion?

Speaker 2:
[35:20] Tyrion?

Speaker 1:
[35:21] Tyrion? Okay, Tyrion. From The Last Battle, I was obsessed. I still have old journals from him from when I was 10 that include fanfic about him.

Speaker 2:
[35:30] Should there be a Tumblr that's just dedicated to fanfics people wrote as kids? Oh, yes. I'm sure there might be already, because I would love to read, Amy. I would love to read your fanfic about King Tyrion. Is it slutty?

Speaker 1:
[35:41] I don't know.

Speaker 2:
[35:42] I would like to know. Look, Snap, Crackle Pop, that tells me everything I know about, need to know about Amy. First of all, she is a reverse harem girly, so I appreciate that. For me, she chose Snap. I get it. I'm not going to choose the ginger. I'm also, I'm going to be honest with you, I'm not going to choose somebody who wears a red bandana. That's not for me. But I do get that he is the leader of the group and a problem solver by nature. But listen, it's going to be Pop. Why are you wearing that drum major hat? I don't know. I wear no more.

Speaker 1:
[36:15] Is Pop wearing the Ebenezer Scrooge sleep hat?

Speaker 2:
[36:18] That's Crackle.

Speaker 1:
[36:20] That's Crackle. Gotcha. That's kind of sick.

Speaker 2:
[36:22] That's very Where's Waldo adjacent. So I can see why you like that. Crackle's a middle child. Crackle's a middle child. But fun loving. I like that. But Pop, like what, I don't know, like you're mischievous and you're the youngest. I'm into that. Did you know there was a fourth member?

Speaker 1:
[36:39] There's a Frankie Jonas of Crackle Pop.

Speaker 2:
[36:43] I'm gonna include a link to the Smithsonian article about the fourth brother that only appeared in two commercials named Pow, P-O-W. Oh.

Speaker 1:
[36:52] He's a prisoner of war. That's pretty cool.

Speaker 2:
[36:54] No, as you saw, he was a spaceman. He was a spaceman. And he was supposed to represent the nutritional power of Rice Krispies, which we now know is not true.

Speaker 1:
[37:05] It's zero.

Speaker 2:
[37:06] It's zero. And he was supposed to exude the power of whole grain rice.

Speaker 1:
[37:11] Whole grain rice.

Speaker 2:
[37:13] Do you want to know the translations in different languages of Snap, Crackle, and Pop?

Speaker 1:
[37:18] Of course. Erin, you know we do.

Speaker 2:
[37:19] In Danish, it's Piff, Paff, Puff. In French, it's Crick, Crack, Crack. And in German, it's Nisper, Nasper, Nusper. Germans ruin everything. I love German. Germans ruin everything. They were too busy at the development of this because this would have been in the 30s when they developed Snap, Crackle, and Pop. They were busy with everything. I don't know, but other world geopolitical events. Some other stuff.

Speaker 1:
[37:47] Incredible. Incredible.

Speaker 2:
[37:48] Oh, and in the King Tyrion of it all, that's the, I'd, listen, I feel like I always only got through three of the Chronicles of Nardia.

Speaker 1:
[37:56] Oh yeah, I didn't realize this Chronicles of Nardia.

Speaker 2:
[37:57] Yeah, this is the last battle. This is when CS Lewis is revealed to be a Universalist. By the way. Nobody likes to talk about it, but that's true. And we love him for it. We do love him for it.

Speaker 1:
[38:11] That's why Aisling is so unavailable. It makes sense now.

Speaker 2:
[38:13] It really does. I think if you're gonna have a crush on a royal figure in Chronicles of Nardia, it has to be Prince Caspian. But only played by Ben Barnes. Well, I mean, but he's been in the book too. He's very hot. But Ben Barnes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Super hot. Super hot. Super hot. I could see if you were a kid watching, you'd be like, huh. You'd be like, let me go check out my Waldo book again. I'm gonna spend some time with my Waldo book.

Speaker 1:
[38:37] All right, next up, with prob, what, Jamie? Do you have something unnice to say to me about Waldo?

Speaker 2:
[38:43] I just love the idea of Knox walking the dogs for that last night walk and bringing in Luna and Bruce and being like, okay, I'm gonna go ahead and turn in and read a little. Ashley's like, uh-huh.

Speaker 1:
[38:58] She's like, it's not where's Waldo again, is it? And I'm like.

Speaker 2:
[39:01] No, I swear, I threw it away.

Speaker 1:
[39:03] Just one more time. Just one more time. It's not an addiction if I could quit any time. Next up, honestly, for my money, the craziest take of the whole listener list.

Speaker 2:
[39:13] The absolutely most insane take.

Speaker 1:
[39:16] This is Kristen Muckler Young. Not in a romantic way, I don't think, question, maybe, question, but Holden Caulfield was the first character to ever stick with me. Granted, I haven't read The Catcher in the Rye in 30 years, so I'm aware this may not hold up.

Speaker 2:
[39:29] This is insane. Or is it?

Speaker 1:
[39:33] No, it's insane. He's written to be despicable and disgusting.

Speaker 2:
[39:36] The whole purpose of him is to be the worst. And he is, listen, that is to be clear. He is the worst. There's no reason why. I'm talking about specifically Kristen Muckler Young. We do know her, and she is a pastor. Flawed, contradictory, hard to like, view of the world is distorted, judgmental. She's trying to save him. Attitudes are outdated. No, that's Christianity. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, that's her early into like, I love an outdated worldview. I love not having a clear view of, and not Kristen Muckler Young specifically, but I'm just saying, I feel like that's when you're drawn to the pastoredom of like, everybody is phony, and you're judgmental of people. Get rid of that. Like, what's that about? You get to become a pastor. Holden Caulfield is like the original Manosphere influencer. Like, if he had a YouTube channel, well, this would have been over. You think Clivicular loves Holden Caulfield? Oh, 1000%! But he doesn't like Holden Caulfield because Holden doesn't like, he's not a success.

Speaker 1:
[40:41] See, I think Holden Caulfield is the perfect avatar for the Manosphere. Yeah, 100%. Like, the Manospheres around you are like, yeah, that's, we need to be more like Andrew Tate, I think, in this situation.

Speaker 2:
[40:52] Let's look, Max, let's talk about it. We should take more meth to lose weight. That feels like Holden Caulfield. You all thought about that?

Speaker 1:
[40:58] I mean, it's effective, it is effective. We're not arguing that, are we?

Speaker 2:
[41:01] No, it does work.

Speaker 1:
[41:02] Because reading this at an all-boys school, and he felt like the whitehead picker guy who you'd be in with class, and would just pick whiteheads and look at him, and you're just like, what is happening right now? So he was always a disgusting figure to me.

Speaker 2:
[41:16] Yeah, he is not a cute guy. That feels like the classic, I can fix it. That's what I said, this one feels like the classic. This is where that feels like it's in. So I am curious. And I like that she's not in a romantic way, honey.

Speaker 1:
[41:31] But then she was like, maybe, maybe it is.

Speaker 2:
[41:33] Yeah, maybe. And to stick with you, what does that mean? You know what I mean? Because why would else would it stick with you if it wasn't front bottom shivers?

Speaker 1:
[41:43] Yeah, so what we're saying, Kristin, is you should bring this up in therapy and try to unpack that.

Speaker 2:
[41:47] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[41:48] All right, last up, Jessica P. Hoffman. I definitely did not read enough as a young person. I can give you TV, movie characters, but harder pressed on the book characters. Maybe Garfield the cat? He was hilarious. The far side? Did that awaken me to a love of dorkiness? Maybe.

Speaker 2:
[42:03] Listen, Garfield.

Speaker 1:
[42:06] What do you think about Garfield, Jamie?

Speaker 2:
[42:07] Well, you know, listen, I loved Garfield because I loved lasagna. I'm like, we understand each other. But he teases Arlene. He's got a weird relationship with Arlene, if you think about it. He's got a vibe of like, like I'm teasing you, but I'm really trying to take, I'm trying to steal you away. He keeps coming back for it.

Speaker 1:
[42:28] Like through the jest kind of stuff?

Speaker 2:
[42:30] Yes. And they have a, and I like, their relationship is full of banter, and it has a little insecurity, and she really advocates for him. And he acts aloof, but like, is he, like, is there a deeper bond there? I don't know. I like that. I appreciate a cat who can, who has like a wide food palette. Cats are sexy.

Speaker 1:
[42:53] Cats are not sexy.

Speaker 2:
[42:54] Yeah, Garfield, like, he's got a food kind of vibe. He's into, you know, exotic cuisines for cats.

Speaker 1:
[43:02] There he is.

Speaker 2:
[43:03] Yeah, that's a refined palette.

Speaker 1:
[43:04] And I appreciate that.

Speaker 2:
[43:05] Yeah, and he mocks sentimentality. I feel very connected to that. Again, Jamie is writing for the animal. I just want to point that out.

Speaker 1:
[43:13] I'll say Garfield's a little chatty though. I think he probably talks a little bit too much for Jamie.

Speaker 2:
[43:17] Well, he taught me through it, but don't talk all day, you know?

Speaker 1:
[43:20] You're more of an Odie gal. You're like, be there, be kind of cool and quirky, but you don't want to talk to me.

Speaker 2:
[43:25] Dogs, I get, everybody, you love your dogs, and except maybe Erin, but everybody loves their dogs. I like my dog. The dog just doesn't like you. That's it. But I think cats, I don't know, cats are sexier.

Speaker 1:
[43:40] Cats are sexier? They literally shit and pee in a box in your house that's open air. That's insane.

Speaker 2:
[43:46] Listen, but cats are like, I don't need you. I like that. I like it. It's like, I don't need you, but when I do, I do. And when I do, I need you right now.

Speaker 1:
[43:52] It's the emotional requirement is zero.

Speaker 2:
[43:55] Yeah, maybe I'm more cat than dog, but that feels right.

Speaker 1:
[43:58] She said for the first time to something everyone else knew.

Speaker 2:
[44:03] She realized behind everyone else. Okay, but listen, I, okay, I know. Okay, let's talk about the far side, because here's what I left. The far side, all I remember of the far side, because I would read it, because I read the comics. But again, that was my reading as a child, but in the newspaper. But listen, I remember my dad thinking that Jane Goodall, remember the Jane Goodall cartoon that he did where it was two chimpanzees that were grooming, and one finds a blonde hair on his back, and he says, conducting a little more research with that Jane Goodall tramp. Listen, that's fantastic. And my dad loved that because he thought it was spicy, and he thought it was so funny. And then obviously, they made Gary Larson apologize for that, and Jane Goodall was like, no, that's hilarious. I love that. And they ended up becoming friends because of it. They raised money for the Goodall Institute after all that. And when she died, he did a special little comic in tribute for her. That's really sweet. I know. And so I like a person who is serious and scientific being like, please have a sense of humor. Don't represent me as if I don't have a sense of humor. Come on, that's ridiculous. And Larson later went to a chimpanzee park and was attacked by a chimpanzee named Frodo.

Speaker 1:
[45:28] Wow, okay.

Speaker 2:
[45:29] And good all said Frodo was a bully, so it made sense.

Speaker 1:
[45:33] Gary Larson, the far side, that's something I've forgotten, like how important that was to me. And that was like one of the first ways my mom and I really bonded over like sheer humor. It's just reading the dry, the wittiness of the far side comics. I love that. They're so simple, but they were so funny.

Speaker 2:
[45:48] She was probably so happy you had turned your back a little bit on Where's Walde?

Speaker 1:
[45:52] Yeah, she's like, thank God he put that book down. What is it about that book? Got a psychic hold on him. You seen this? Okay, let's go do it for this episode of Shelf Respect. That's in the free feed, unfortunately, and I don't think I remember that when I was prepping this episode.

Speaker 2:
[46:07] This will be the clip for this week. Hip, hip, hip. Okay, listen, we would love to hear your thoughts on this episode. You can find us on Instagram at Read with Shelf Respect. And if you're listening on Patreon, you can obviously comment on this post. Everything we talked about is in the show notes, and we would love to see you talk about it too. Ask your pointing questions, declare your intentions, or start a respectful fight in the comments with one of your enemies just to become lovers. I'm Jamie Golden. You can find me on the internet at Jamie B.

Speaker 1:
[46:35] Golden.

Speaker 2:
[46:35] I'm Erin Moon. You can find me on the interwebs at Erin H.

Speaker 1:
[46:37] Moon. I'm Knox McCoy. You can find me on socials at Knox McCoy. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.

Speaker 2:
[46:41] Bye guys. The end.