transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] We have had so many guests on this show talk about how powerful the outdoors can be for kids, especially kids with ADHD or different ways of learning and processing the world. And if you are raising a child with ADHD, dyslexia, a language disorder, or really any kind of learning difference, I want to share a podcast that I think you'll really appreciate. It's called Everyone Gets a Juice Box. It's parents just being honest with each other in a really safe, welcoming space about the highs and lows of raising neurodivergent kids. And what I love about it is how real it is. There was one story about a mom who had this big career running a major podcast division, and she realized she hadn't been home to see her daughter before bed for weeks. And at the same time, she was starting to notice these little moments, like her daughter freezing up during a simple preschool performance and just having that gut feeling like something's different here. And then all the doubt that comes with that, like other people saying she seems fine while you're sitting here thinking, but I'm her parent and I know her. This mom eventually stepped back in and reconnected and created little games together just to help her daughter communicate better. It's such a good reminder that connection doesn't have to be complicated. It just has to be intentional. So, if that interests you, go check it out. To listen, search for Everyone Gets a Juice Box in your podcast app. That's Everyone Gets a Juice Box. Welcome to The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast. My name is Ginny Yurich. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I'm so excited today. I have one of Josh's friends and husband of a dear friend of mine, Rachel, and I would say that we're friends too, but more so you're friends with Josh. Dan Kovac, husband of Rachel Kovac, who has the most incredible book out. It is called Their Future Is Shining Bright, A Guide to Homeschooling in High School, and Equipping Your Child for Success and Fulfillment in Adulthood. Isn't that what we all want? We want to equip our children for success and fulfillment in adulthood. So we're going to be talking about home education, we're going to be talking about the world of work from a father's perspective. Dan, thanks for being here.

Speaker 2:
[01:47] Ginny, it's amazing. Of course, in no other universe would I ever expect to make your podcast other than I married to Rachel, who wrote this book. So I'm so thrilled to be here and thank you for that introduction. It's great to see you.

Speaker 1:
[02:00] So the book is phenomenal. And so if you're listening to this, it is out now and it's already hitting bestseller list. We're recording a couple weeks before book launch and already the book is hitting bestseller list because I think, Dan, people are looking at the way of the world, what's going on in the world. There's a lot of uncertainty there. And I also just think, gosh, by the time you get to high school, it's really fun to hang out with your kids. And a lot of people want to usher them through those years where they're really coming into their own. They have their different hobbies and their interests and their passions. And yet a lot of times we're scared to sort of continue through high school. And so this is such an incredible resource that Rachel has created for families all across the world. And I know that you contributed to different parts too. We're going to be talking about that. But I would love if you kick it off. You have got a super unique story. We're going to be talking about your story. We're going to be talking about your career, where you have worked with thousands over the years, just incredible in the world of business. And just thinking through what are employees looking for. So we're going to kind of run the gamut, starting from little Dan all the way to current Dan. But you had some bouts of homeschooling in your early life, but probably more interesting than most anyone else, because you were being homeschooled in West Africa. Can you talk about how you ended up there?

Speaker 2:
[03:19] Yeah, absolutely. My parents decided to work overseas when I was about six years old. And I have three siblings. And so they went through some education to become linguists and then moved to West Africa when I was eight years old. And so I found myself uprooted from St. Louis, Missouri to Liberia, West Africa. And there weren't a lot of educational options out there. And so I was homeschooled for probably four or five years there. After which my dad started working more in the capital city there. And so there was like a little international school that I went to for a couple of years. And then in high school, it was boarding school. But I was really active kid and I was a squirmer. And so back then, the only thing that I think my mom knew or had at her disposal was school at home versus homeschool. You know what I mean by that, Ginny? It's like you're sitting in a desk facing the wall and you're doing your school as though you were in a classroom. And so little Danny, as they used to call me, like was squirming in this staring at a white wall. It didn't go well for me. And so that created a little bit of like, huh, I don't know if I like homeschooling for me early on.

Speaker 1:
[04:31] Yeah. That's so interesting, Dan, because I know you talk about how when Rachel first starts talking about Jude and she tells a story in the book, it's called Their Future Is Shining Bright. So she's talking about Jude, that's your oldest and he started off in school. And I think this is what a lot of people see is that they start off. I hear these stories a lot. They start off and the kid is doing great in kindergarten and maybe first grade. And then it's like the lights start to dim because there starts to be so much more schoolwork and so much less free time and so much less recess. And kids are getting in trouble in different ways. And so you talk about how in part because of that experience, you're like, I just want to run around. I can fish, we can go to the rice farms, I can go explore, but I've got to sit at this table and do the schoolwork. So you talk about how when homeschooling got brought up for your particular family and as a father, you're kind of on the fence about it. Can you talk about that journey of learning that it can look different?

Speaker 2:
[05:29] Yeah, of course. Ginny, I probably spent a thousand hours outside every day as a little kid. I know it's not physically possible, but I lived outside and that was the memory I had, and that's what I wanted a little bit for the kids. But I had this reticence about homeschooling, and so we talked about it. And I think it's funny, even though she's got a section on myths in there, myths about homeschooling, even though I was homeschooled and my siblings were and everybody's well-adjusted, I still had some of those myths in the back of my head, because I didn't know all of the options that were available for homeschooling. But we talked about it and it made sense logistically. For us, we had a couple of options in terms of where we would work, where I would work, and we were facing a situation, maybe we were going to be in one state for three months and then move to another. So let's try homeschooling. So we did. It didn't take long, Ginny, for me to see the light come back into Jude's eyes. They had time to play outside. He and Indigo, who we had at the time, the only kids in the house, they were awesome. They played together a lot more and it was great. Then I sat in on one of their math courses. Every once in a while, I would help. She does the homeschooling. She's the magic behind the mystery here. But I was never good at math. At least I was told I wasn't good. Then I looked at the math program that Rachel was working them with, which was Singapore Math. It taught kids how to think about numbers and how do numbers work. Not just like what's the Pythagorean theorem, memorize it and practice it 10 times in five minutes. It was why does it work and what does it do? I thought, well, this is amazing. I'd probably be a lot better at math if I've been homeschooled like this. For me, those were some of the things that just snapped for me. That and just seeing how much time they got to spend together. So it didn't take long for my conceptions built from my childhood and some of my myths that I held on to, to be evaporated.

Speaker 1:
[07:35] The more common situation, Dan, it's not always this way, but the more common situation is that, at least that I hear about, is that the dad is not on board. I would love a little insight if you felt like you had it as to why that might be and to what advice you would give a family that, in a couple of situations, maybe they're wanting to begin homeschooling to begin with, and or they're wanting to continue through high school like this book Rachel wrote, Their Future Is Shining Bright. But there's a lot of nerves there about, what am I going to do about physics and chemistry and the high school experience? What insight do you have for the dads?

Speaker 2:
[08:12] Well, look, the burden of homeschooling is on the moms. Let's just face it, every homeschooler I know, the mom's doing the heavy lifting on homeschooling, and dads are usually in the workplace or running their own business. And so I think there's probably a little bit of, I see the work world through my eyes, and I want to make sure my kids are equipped to do that. And even if you don't know any homeschool kids, myths exist for a reason. Sometimes they are myths, and sometimes they're rooted in fact. But I think as a dad, you come to this, I need my kids to be able to succeed in this rough and tumble world. Right? And so if the traditional education system was quote, designed to help kids do that, well, that must be the right way to do it and the best way to do it. So I think you have that in the back of your mind, you know, as a dad, and it takes a little bit of undoing to unwind those conceptions. And so, you know, what I tell dads is do your own research. Well, you know, in Rachel's book, she does it for you. But really dig in and do your own research. What are the outcomes for kids? How are they socially adjusted? How are they academically prepared? And I think most dads will come to the conclusion that it's a really good option for our family if we want to continue homeschooling into high school or we want to start there for the first time.

Speaker 1:
[09:32] Yeah, it's a great time, even just for the sleep.

Speaker 2:
[09:35] Big time.

Speaker 1:
[09:36] They can honor their bodies. I loved what you brought up, Dan, about the, you know, there really is no research that happens often, right? It's like we're just doing what everyone else is doing. It's that current, the yellow school bus comes and we put our kid on.

Speaker 2:
[09:50] That's right.

Speaker 1:
[09:51] But if you do the research and by doing the research, you can just read Rachel's book, you know, that will give you an incredible foundation, Their Future Is Shining Bright, that originally this system, which has not been around for very long, it actually is new in the course of human history. But the system that we have here of K-12 education is very much designed for compliance. It's designed for Bell systems. It's designed and if you read some of the original Horace Mann type stuff and you can read these things in Rachel's book, you're a little horrified because you're like, wait a minute, I thought this was about bulletin boards and hugging the teacher and there is some of that.

Speaker 2:
[10:30] Sure.

Speaker 1:
[10:31] But the underpinnings of it is not rosy. There are some dark underpinnings there and so I think it matters even more today. And I'd love for you to talk about that as being someone who's been, you know, if like you, if you Google your name, it's like, Dan, after, you know, what does it say? With more than 30 years of industry experience, especially, you know, a specialist, the article comes up. So you've been in the world of work and are privy to the changes with technology over the past several decades. Can you talk about the skill set? I love what you said, that the dad is looking at this from a very loving perspective and understanding the world of work. Josh always says, no one's looking out for you, but you. You know, the world of work, you know, can be a harsh place. He tells everybody that, you know, he's always like, take the interview on the side, you know, look out for your family. And so you're coming from this perspective of this is the way the world is. Will my child, will my children, will they be prepared for this? So can you talk about some of the changes you've seen with technology and what kind of skills you're looking for, for a co-worker, for an employee, and how homeschooling through high school can, I mean, it's counterintuitive for some people, but can really set kids up for success.

Speaker 2:
[11:53] Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting when I, a career is a very long thing, first of all, and so it takes a really flexible mindset. And that's one thing I think homeschool creates. It also creates a big sense of independence and time management. When I started work, I literally had an in-bin. You know, 22-year-old Dan, I had an in-bin. Paper would come into my in-bin, and I had to get it out into the out-bin by the end of the day. And so that fit sort of the Horace Mann structure. If the bell rings, you change your class, you do the thing, and then you go to the next room. But that is not the world of work anymore. You know, artificial intelligence and just general automation has replaced that in and out-bin a lot. Although, I wish it would solve email. But it creates a totally different need for the skill set of an employee. It's not a production environment anymore, where compliance is the most important thing. It's the ability to look at your work problem and your work opportunity from the outside in and from about eight different perspectives, and come up with the most ingenious market attractive way to do something. Well, the skills necessary to do that are critical thinking, a view of history, because we think we're solving some brand new problems, but we're really not. We are solving problems and questions that have been asked for hundreds of years, and so having that perspective, particularly from a humanities orientation, really helps you look at the world differently, and that's what I need as someone who has teammates that work for and with me.

Speaker 1:
[13:32] These are skills. If you think about time management, time management is definitely a part of high school because you always have a lot of moving parts, but it's time management when you have open time, and you have to decide how you're going to fill it. I have a friend who is a teacher, and he had a student teacher this past year. That's like where you have someone that's still in college. Anyway, the student teacher was in her mid-20s, she was 25, and she really struggled. The stories were that after the first day, she laid on the floor and went to bed. She was so tired. In the classroom, she cried a lot. She let the kids order door-dash and they weren't supposed to. So anyway, you're like, these things actually matter. You are on a threshold. By the time you hit these high school years, whether someone considers that ninth grade or tenth grade, you are on this threshold of adulthood, and you can see some kids are prepared for it and some kids are not. The ramifications of not being super prepared can be lengthy and they can be long-lasting. So can you talk about, you've worked with thousands of people. Do you think that people would hire your kids and why?

Speaker 2:
[14:50] Yeah, I mean, they are my kids, so my obvious knee-jerk reaction is of course, they are awesome kids, but they really are. They are extremely energetic self-starters, and so you just point them at a thing. Jude and I rebuilt a land rover, a 1970 land rover together, and when we talked about it, when we got it, I said, look, one of two things, either I already know how to do it, we can figure it out together, or we can find somebody who can coach us through it, right? And so already starting and working with our kids from the perspective of we can figure this out, right? And so just that ingenuity is something that I would look for in an employee, and I think my kids would serve up. I remember sitting one day, and Jude was in the garage working on the car. I couldn't figure it out, and he came in and he goes, I got it done, Dad, I figured it out. I'm like, what? And it was the rear axle, which is kind of a complicated mess, and sure enough, he got it done, and he did it right, and so that, you know, you have those breakthrough moments as a father. But from a homeschooling perspective, you know, if you do co-ops or things like that, they'll go one day a week in a class. And they have in a week, here are the things you're supposed to get done, versus going to chemistry class every day, or that next milestone is given to you and it's due tomorrow, or it's due in two days. You have to take this amorphous body of work, figure out how you're going to do it, make sure you don't fritter your time away, you know, working on a land rover, because it's fun, but structure that for five different classes. And so you learn to manage your time very, very well. And that is exactly what the working world is like, at least in what I do. You're not doing one project where the work comes in and it's due the next day.

Speaker 1:
[16:35] Right, the in-bin, out-bin. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[16:37] You're looking at five, ten different things at a time, some are due in a year, some are due in a week, and you have to structure that time. And you have to figure out how to solve the problems because that's what you're paid for, figure it out. And so that's what our kids have developed from the skill set perspective. So the answer is absolutely, I would hire my kids. I wish I could.

Speaker 1:
[16:54] Yeah. This time of the year in homeschooling, you can really feel the shift. You're looking ahead to spring goals, end of your milestones, and making sure your kids feel confident in what they've learned. It's such a key window to reinforce those foundational skills before wrapping things up. And if you're thinking about assessments, whether that's something required or something you've set for a family, having clarity on where your child stands can make all the difference. That's where a tool like IXL can be incredibly helpful. IXL is an award-winning online learning platform that fits seamlessly into homeschooling. It offers interactive practice across math, language, art, science, and social studies from pre-K through 12th grade. It personalizes learning for each child, keeps them engaged, and gives parents clear insight into progress. What really stands out is the real-time feedback and progress tracking. 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Well, that's a ton of subjects all in one. Let's talk about the history of why we have chickens. You're going to bake with it. You're going to be working with the geometry. So can you give a vision to someone who's listening, especially as you get to high school. You can do these middle school, high school. When they're six, it's a lot more simple, but as they're getting older, there's the opportunity. That's what we found. There's the opportunity to like, well, we were together over the holidays, our two families and a couple of other families. We were together over Thanksgiving. With the older kids, there's an opportunity for everyone to get together and everyone's proficient at music. So you got a bunch of guitar players, you got the violinist, you got kids that can sing. These are really dynamic years. I love this vision of, well, as a dad, I can step in and do some bigger projects with these kids, build relationship, but also build skill sets.

Speaker 2:
[21:58] Yeah. Well, as I said before, Rachel gets the credit for homeschooling the kids because I have a traditional nine to five job or eight to seven some days. So she has done the homeschooling, she designed it, and so that book she wrote comes from experience and research, and so that's what I love about it. So as a dad, I'm a pretty kinetic person, right? I'm mechanical, I'm hands-on, I'm practical, probably too practical at times, Ginny. And so that's the role I took on, is I wanted my kids to go into the world with this attitude of, I can figure it out, not just academic things or work things, but just how to live things. And so, you know, Jude, while he's pursuing medicine, is very comfortable working with his hands in a mechanical way. And my daughters, which we have five of, like I didn't want them to not know how to use power tools. And so we took on some of these big projects and, you know, it gave us a massive amount of time to talk to each other and have fun together. And like I've never built a chicken coop before, and it's got angles and roofs and all this stuff. And so we figured it out together. We made mistakes together. We learned how to recover from those mistakes and solve problems. But those are some of the best memories I have with the kids. And, you know, we've got one who loves to cook and she's just gifted at it. And so we cook together and try new recipes and things like that. And so, as you know, that's kind of how I approach my contribution was, you know, some of the home ec and the shop class sort of thing. But it was also how I, you know, built a relationship with them. And, you know, you talked about those high school years and you get through the custodial portion of life, you know, where you're brushing teeth and doing baths and all that stuff. And they finally get to this high school stage where they're thinking about big ideas and, you know, they're moving into adulthood. And that's when high school and all the activities around them pulls them out of your house the most. And that's when they're most amazing, like not the most amazing, but it's such an amazing time. They're wired to stay up late. And so homeschooling allows you to do this and you have those late night conversations and what an incredible time. And I'm just so grateful for it.

Speaker 1:
[24:04] I just yesterday, you know, our story that we got kicked out of church. So, you know, it's been just a big turning point for our family, a big adjustment for our kids and it's a lot to work through. It's a lot to work through being kicked out of church person. And one of our kids in particular has struggled with it more because she's like, well, were these ever real relationships? You know, do these people ever actually care about me? I've not heard from them since, you know? And so, I mean, she's like reading through these pretty deep books by this man named Dr. Henry Cloud about like safe people and trust. And just yesterday she's like, I had a really good conversation with dad yesterday about, you know, church and relationships and all that stuff. And I think there's just a little bit more breath there. There's a little bit more space, there's a little bit more margin. And I think it matters because, like you said, there, if you're listening to this and your child is 12, what's coming is, you know, the driving and the job and the all. I remember that as a high schooler, like, you know, I had my full day at school, I had homework, I had a boyfriend, I had a job. I mean, there's not much time left over to work on a Land Rover or build a chicken coop or have a conversation or stay up late. You know, I was up at five every morning. You know, this is every single day. So you can just see how it's almost like I've said this before, but, you know, you have these zero to five, those years that are very much hard and exhausting. And then all of a sudden they're five and like, maybe they can brush their own teeth and like, you know, and by the time they're six, maybe they're tying their own shoe. And then we like send them off and you're like, well, no, you should reap the benefits of like the zero to five diaper changes. And it's kind of similar with this high school. It's like, and then it just allows the child to have more margin to think and to figure out who they are and what is their place in the world. These are really big questions because otherwise, man, we just out the house they go and I don't really feel like they've had a lot of time to contemplate those big things and they're making long-term decisions at those ages. So, okay, this book, Their Future Is Shining Bright, it is phenomenal. It's hefty, isn't it, Dan?

Speaker 2:
[26:13] It's a big book.

Speaker 1:
[26:14] Yeah, it's a good book. Yeah, it's worth your money. Their Future Is Shining Bright, A Guide to Homeschooling in High School and Equipping Your Child for Success and Fulfillment in Adulthood. You've got a couple of cameos in here. So let's talk about some of those. So there's a cameo on page 23, where you come up and it might be a different page because I got, I had an original version and then they always send me like an original and then we've updated.

Speaker 2:
[26:40] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[26:40] Okay. So what you're talking about is feelings. So the statement that Rachel said came from you is that feelings don't disqualify us. So talking about high school in particular, there's a lot of big feelings that come up, feelings of inadequacy like you talked about, I wasn't strong in math, how am I supposed to get my kids to do Algebra 2 or beyond? I don't remember chemistry, it's been however long, I don't know what they are going to need to write in an age of AI. There are a lot of bigger picture things different than coloring pages in the earlier years. But you say feelings don't disqualify us. So can you talk about how to deal with those feelings of inadequacy or nervousness about a child having a different high school experience than yours? Now, obviously, your kids did because you were at boarding school. But I think there's a lot of parents that would be like, well, I did really like prom or I liked Friday night football games. And Rachel dispels all those myths. You don't have to miss all those. They still exist for homeschool kids too. But how do you deal with those bigger feelings?

Speaker 2:
[27:46] Yeah, I mean, everybody has a little bit of imposter syndrome, right? No matter what you're doing, whether you're a doctor and it's your first day on the job, or you work in financial services like me, or you're starting off as a homeschooling parent, you're like, can I really do that? You know, and you project the confidence maybe that you don't feel. So I think it's important to recognize that's pretty common. And everybody's got feelings of inadequacy about someone or questions about something. You know, the way I've always tackled it is, okay, I'm going to research my way through this. I'm going to get the facts. And what I tell my kids is when there's a big complicated project, you have to do it all. But you don't have to do it all right now. You have time to figure it out. You have time to think through it. And so don't let the big overwhelming project goal paralyze you today. Start and then go to the next thing and go to the next thing. It's like that with homeschooling. You don't have to have a 12-year curriculum laid out that first Monday. You're going to figure it out and you know what? You're going to change things. And Ginny, so much has changed even in resources since we started homeschooling. And I think COVID kicked off a huge growth of materials. There are some amazing, and I think she talks about them in their amazing math resources where you don't have to remember how to do calculus. There are different ways that your kids can learn. And so there are so many options, but just start with the first question and go from there.

Speaker 1:
[29:20] Yeah, it's such a good point that you don't have to have 12th grade figured out when they're finishing up 8th grade. You're going to figure it out year by year, and that is modeling. I know you had a job loss situation, Josh has had job loss situation. We're in the middle of an entrepreneurship journey where every day we're like, we have no idea what the heck we're doing. And that is part of building a good life, I think, is saying I'm going to make a really good decision for today. And I think this homeschooling thing through high school makes a lot of sense. I'm going to read this book, it makes a lot of sense. We're going to continue with it. But I don't have to have 11th grade figured out when they're 13. You're going to figure it out as you go. And that's modeling to them that they're going to figure it out as they go. I know even with your kids, you've got two that are at Texas A&M. That's part of their story too, right? Which is, and that's how it goes with dating. I mean, everything's like that. You start in this small way and you adjust and pivot, and especially in today's marketplace. People used to have a job that would last the whole thing, their whole adulthood, right? Then retire and die. And now, it's like, well, you got to find a new job. I mean, I remember when Josh was out of work, he was out of work for three months and it was like, he was after a fourth was born and it was like, are we going to move or what are we going to do? And life is full of moments like that. And so I think it's very appropriate to have a situation in your home where you're like, I don't really know what's going to be in four years, but I know that I'm going to figure it out when we get there. So, okay, that's a big deal. Feelings don't disqualify you and that's going to come up in the book. The book is called Their Future Is Shining Bright. Okay, here is another spot where you shine. Rachel talked about the two of you worked on this together. This is the third appendix. Now, I didn't get this in the advanced reader copy, but it is in the one I have now, the book that is out now. This is an appendix, 263 career paths that don't require a college degree. Can you talk about the vision there of putting that in this book? That's a huge appendix and also the process of coming up with them and maybe what you learned along the way.

Speaker 2:
[31:31] Yeah, it's interesting when you think about educational tracks, it used to be a white collar job was the path to the middle class. And for many, many years, it was like you mentioned, working in the same job and then you die. My wife's grandfather worked at a sugar mill. He was a chemist for like 40 years or something with the same company. Well, professions come and go all the time and many of them now don't need college degrees. And when we started thinking about them, you know, what are they? So we could come up with some anecdotes for the book or come up with some guidance for the book. The number of jobs that kept coming up in our conversations kept growing and growing. You think of the obvious one like the trades that you're familiar with, plumbers, electricians, and so forth. But then, you know, you think about, we have one in there like a beekeeper. You're like, oh, that's a hobby. There are people that make livings with this. You know, I read an article about a guy who keeps bees and drives like, I'm going to get the number wrong, like 8,000 beehives from large field to large field, looking for honeybees, you know, so they can do their thing, pollinate, create honey. That's a job. And so it was important for us not to confine parents thinking and kids thinking to this because these years of high school are important exploratory years. It's kind of crazy, you know, kids are 18 and we're like, what do you want to do for the rest of your life?

Speaker 1:
[32:55] Which is a dumb question because it's a dumb question. Also, they haven't had a lot of time often to explore, but we don't live in a world anymore that is conducive to the question of what do you want to do for the rest of your life?

Speaker 2:
[33:08] Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out what do I want to do for the rest of my life. So when we started making that list, it was like a major aha moment for me and all the different things. You know, you start thinking about what jobs your friends have or jobs you've read about in articles and the list just keeps going and going and going. And we probably could have kept going. But at some point, you've got to put a period at the end of the sentence.

Speaker 1:
[33:32] Right. Well, okay. And in this particular case, this appendix is over 30 pages long. It goes from page 241 to page 272, and it's split up into categories. So there's agriculture, farming, horticulture, there's animal care, and there's so many even for animal care. People aren't really having kids as much anymore, Dan, right? So they're really into their animals. People are making a ton of money as a dog groomer or a dog, like the doggy daycare where they go, they'll go for the day. It's like an actual daycare center. We have got some good friends whose daughter, who's in her early 20s, works for one, and they're sending photos, like they'll do Halloween dress up for the dog and bring in the photographer. I mean, these people are making a lot of money because their dogs are getting dropped off every day, and then you go to beauty and personal care careers. I got my hair and makeup done for an event, Dan, within the last year. I haven't done this since I got married, so it had been close to 25 years. I was at this event and everyone else was doing it, so I was like, I'm going to look like an old hag if I don't get my hair and makeup done. So I was like, okay, no big deal. There was somebody there doing it, and I was like, my daughters, two of them were with me, and I was like, oh, well, maybe we'll all do it. It'll be a fun mommy daughter thing. And so the lady was like, yeah, I'm available. I charge $600.

Speaker 2:
[34:57] Not bad.

Speaker 1:
[35:00] Then I was like, I'm not just going to be me.

Speaker 2:
[35:04] Ginny, I'm going to change jobs.

Speaker 1:
[35:07] Well, we had so many conversations about that because I've got one kid that really liked hair and makeup. The rest of us are just going everywhere in our t-shirts, but she really likes hair and makeup. I was like, think about this lady spent an hour and a half with me, and she made $600. There's a woman named Hannah Maruyama. She's one of my favorite on the Internet. She talks a lot about these different kind of career paths, and she says you have to have vocational creativity. Because if you don't have vocational creativity, you're really going to struggle. If you do lose your job or you're trying to figure out, am I just going to go to college and get a history degree? Well, what are you going to do with that? You just spend $150,000. You have to know what kind of jobs are out there. And so this is an incredible, incredible resource, Dan. It took a really long time, didn't it?

Speaker 2:
[35:55] It took a long time. And it was, but it was a lot of fun because you start researching these things because you want to make sure, is this a real thing? Like, could someone actually make a living in it? And you think about like animal care, like a horse, I think they're called farriers. The folks that do shoes on horses, they are almost impossible to find. There are so few of them and it's such a highly skilled job, they can charge a lot of money. You know, I wish I got paid that to put my kid's shoes on when they were little.

Speaker 1:
[36:23] Yeah. I mean, even like our piano tuner.

Speaker 2:
[36:28] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[36:28] You know, if you're like the type of person that is like, I love, I would love to have a job where I don't have to talk to anyone. You know, and like the piano tuner, in some sense, people might say that's a dying thing because people aren't doing as many hands on things. But, you know, our guy, he's like doing the pianos everywhere. You know, he's doing them at the symphony orchestra and he's traveling all over the place. And we've got some friends that the husband was a, I don't know, like a chemist or something, some like sort of typical job. He'd be like, oh yeah, that's a job. But he didn't like it. And he had had experience as a teenager, like in late teens, moving pianos. And he said, you know, I think I could do this as a career. Like he sat down and was like, I think I can move pianos and make enough money to support their homeschooling family with five kids to make enough money. And so they start this company, it's called Michigan Piano Movers. And his wife does the books. So like if you're with the wife, you know, in the phone rings, she'll be like, Michigan Piano Movers, you know, where do you need to have the piano moved to? And he's got trucks and equipment, and they have a barn where they store other people's pianos, and then he'll get the big calls, like a place flooded and they got to go down and deal with the pianos, they got to move the grand pianos. I mean, it's just things that you would never think of. And he likes it. You know, he's got a couple of employees, and it's physical and not sitting at a desk, and everybody has their different things that they enjoy. But I just think this is a phenomenal resource, Dan, vocational creativity. Real question. How does your family actually keep track of everything? Because if you're anything like we used to be, it's a mix of sticky notes, texts, a paper calendar that may or may not be accurate, and a lot of hoping you didn't forget something important. That was us. And then we started using the Skylight calendar, and it has honestly changed the rhythm of our home. Everything lives in one place now. It syncs with Google, Apple, Outlook. So no matter where something gets added, it shows up. And what I love most is the Tasks feature for kids. Chores, routines, even simple things like brushing teeth or packing bags. It gives them ownership, and it makes follow through feel normal instead of like a constant reminder from me. And you can color code everything by family member. So there's no more, I didn't know, which if you have kids, you know, is a very common phrase. It just takes so much off your mental load. When your brain is already full, having a system that holds it all for you is huge. Skylight calendar is really about helping families work together so you can spend less time managing life and more time actually living it. Families are better off when they're working together. Right now Skylight is offering our listeners $30 off their 15 inch calendar. When you go to myskylight.com/1000hours, go to myskylight.com/1000hours for $30 off your 15 inch calendar. That's myskylight.com/1000hours for $30 off. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. You know, one thing we don't talk enough about is how much financial stress can subtly shape our lives. It's not just numbers on a spreadsheet, it's the way it sits in your chest, the way it keeps you up at night, the tension it can bring into a marriage or a family. We've definitely had seasons where money felt heavy, where I caught myself tying my sense of security to how things were going financially. And I think a lot of us carry beliefs about money that we didn't even choose, we just inherited them. And here's what I've come to realize. Struggling with money doesn't mean you failed, it just means you're human, and maybe you need support in a different way than you expected. That's where therapy can be so helpful. Not because a therapist is going to tell you what to do with your finances, but because they can help you process the stress, the anxiety, even the shame that comes with it. They can help you untangle your relationship with money, so it doesn't control your peace. BetterHelp makes that reality accessible. They'll match you with a licensed therapist based on your needs, and if it's not the right fit, you can switch anytime. With over 30,000 therapists and millions of people served, you are not alone in this. When life feels overwhelming, therapy can help. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/1000hours. That's betterhelp.com/1000hours. What I thought that people could do with it once you hit the 7th, 8th grade, is you could start to sit down and go through all of these, go through all these 200-something careers and even just do a first pass. Would you want to be a spray tanning technician? Yes, no. Would you want to be a court reporter? Would you want to do the horse thing? Would you ever be interested in, there's like church and a non-profit things in here. There are gaming. Gaming is in here. Would you want to be a graphic artist? What do you think? Then you can start to talk to you. Do these seem somewhat AI proof or not? What about a DJ? I've been at some parties where there's been phenomenal DJs. They'll get out and dance with you.

Speaker 2:
[41:06] Yeah. I mean, the CEO of Goldman Sachs is famous for being a DJ on the side, and he just loves it. But I think you made a great point earlier, Ginny, which was having an ingenuity to your career. Because you could be a dog groomer or you could create these specialty costume designs and haircuts for your dogs and really stand out. So I think that's where the creativity, particularly that you learn in homeschooling, can really help you not just pick one of those. Being a furniture mover is great, but being a piano specialist puts you in a category of like three, and it creates a really high demand function for what you do. Taking one of these careers and then putting your own angle and spin on it is really what helps set you apart and make you super successful and durable over time.

Speaker 1:
[42:04] Let's talk about some of the things that your high school age students, your high school age kids have done. I called your kids students.

Speaker 2:
[42:13] The students.

Speaker 1:
[42:14] There is a man named William Derezoids. And I think that this matters because the person that I was just talking about who became a piano mover, he had a touch point with that job when he was 18 or 19 years old. And this book that Rachel wrote, Their Future Is Shining Bright, this allows people to get a touch point to what are the options. I would have never in my wildest dreams been like, I don't like this job, let's have a piano moving company. Yeah, he had this touch point. So something else that can happen during high school, this William DeRezeritz wrote a book called Excellent Sheep. And it's basically about how, and he was a professor at a high, like a Harvard-y type place. And he talked about how a lot of the students would come in and they didn't know what they wanted out of their lives, they didn't know themselves. They were order takers, right? Do this assignment, turn it in. They were still doing the in-bin-out-bem. And they didn't have a good sense of what they wanted out of their life, who they were. And so one of the things that he talked about that was really important was stepping out of that rat race. He was like, do not do an internship in your field of study over the summer, do something different. So that you start to get a sense of what's out in the world. And so that's something that your kids have done. Like I know they worked at camps, they traveled. So can you talk about that part of high school? And when you homeschool through high school, there's just more opportunity because there's more time to step off that linear K-12 education path and be exposed to other things.

Speaker 2:
[43:45] Yeah. So the kids, the older two are pursuing careers in medicine. And if you talk about touch points, they had certain touch points in there. As well, Jude certainly did. I remember one time one of our kids really like squashed her toe between the bicycle, sadly, and the Land Rover. And she was trying to ride. And so she needed some stitches. And our neighbor happens to be a medical director at a urgent care center. So we go there and his name is Luke. And Luke kind of explained to Jude, here's what I'm doing. I'm putting this, I'm attaching this, this is why I'm sewing it this way. This is where the anesthesia goes in here. And it's things like that that like, I mean, he was interested in medicine, but things like that create this like super attachment to a desire or an idea or, you know, Indigo did a lot of volunteer work for a summer camp. And while she didn't want to, you know, that's not the direction she decided to go. She got to try that out and sort of try that, you know, suit of clothes on. Jude and I worked with a group of guys that built a large structure. I think it was spring break or over summer or something. And he had that exposure, he had the Land Rover exposure. And I don't know if that was instrumental in him saying, I don't want to do that, I want to do this. But he got the opportunity to try it. You know, and I think that's the important thing is just go, I love that word touch point, just go touch a profession for a few minutes. You know, just talk to somebody and go there. And Rachel talks about that in the book, the importance of job shadowing or internships. It doesn't even have to be a formal shadow for you to get a sense of what that life is like.

Speaker 1:
[45:24] Yeah, absolutely. You know, you talked earlier about the dog grooming, and I had seen an account where they groomed the dogs to make them look like other animals, which I think is kind of silly, but I don't even know what they're doing. It almost looks like they've spray painted the animal. They haven't, but you know, they're going to make it look like a tiger or a lion. You know, the way that they do the haircut and you are, you're kind of in awe in this creativity. I mean, it helps you to stand out in this type of a world. I would love to talk about, because one of the myths that comes up in Their Future Is Shining Bright is about social skills. And I do think that this is critically important because you said professions come and go all the time, as opposed to, you know, the grandparent or the great grandparent who was in the same place of work. I mean, you could see, you know, everybody, you know, everybody knows who you are. You've been there since you were 22, now you're 42. Everybody knows your family. You've worked your way up the ladder. And so you've only had to get to know a finite number of people. But when professions come and go, you've got to be able to pivot. You've got a new boss, you've got new coworkers. These are people that have not known you for a decade. You're coming in, you know, completely as an unknown person. Can you talk about how homeschooling through high school can help a child be prepared for that kind of work? And even just more broadly, Dan, like what are the social skills that help you to succeed in a world like the one we're in?

Speaker 2:
[46:55] Yeah, so I think no matter what profession and whether you run your own company or you're W2 and you work for somebody, you go from in a traditional setting, right? You're with kids the same age all day. Maybe you've got siblings and some friends, but essentially you're with one, you know, not even a generation, one age group of kids. Then you hit the working world and first customer is 80 years old, right? Or your boss is 57 years old. And now all of a sudden you're in a position where you have to relate up and down generationally. Not just relate in a get along sort of way, but sometimes you're younger and you're trying to direct somebody who is older than you because of what you do. And I think homeschool is excellent for that. You know, our kids have so many opportunities just within the house. You know, the seven-year-old will ask the 14-year-old, how do I do this? So you learn how to be instructional. You learn how to be relational. They, you know, some of our kids help a neighbor down the street who has a couple of grandkids. And so they relate to her every day because they go help that grandmother with one of the grandkids that they work with. So they're relating to a little kid all day long, and they're hearing stories from this grandmother, and they're relating to her not just an occasional touch point way, but in a real meaningful way. And so I think that is one of the huge benefits that you get. And the socialization myth, because it is a myth, gets blown away pretty quickly. I mean, our kids are involved in, you know, our city's youth orchestra, our city's youth choir. And so you relate to different kids like all the time. And Indigo went to college when she was a junior in high school because she was ready, right? And so she was not afraid to engage with that teacher. I think there's a story in there. Like she was engaging with like with this philosophy professor and they were going back and forth. They didn't all see, always see eye to eye. He loved it because she wasn't afraid to do it, right? And so I think that is so important for kids, just from a work relationship, let alone a personal, interpersonal relationship perspective.

Speaker 1:
[49:08] So talk about, you know, you worked with so many people over the years. Let's say a 23-year-old joins in on your team. What sort of socialization qualities are you looking for, or that you see really will help them to get ahead? Like you're like, okay, that kid's going places. You know, I know that kid's going to be fine in the years to come. And maybe even vice versa. You know, I would think optimism or energetic or, you know, like competent, but also confident, but not cocky. You know, I had read this book. This book, it was something about Gen Z. And they're entering the workforce. And this guy was like, the book is written for older people to try and assimilate Gen Z, you know, cause they're like, I was at a party last night. It was so stressful. I've got a lot of anxiety. I'm not going to be at work today. And like, that's very normal for them. And the boss is like, what? Or he gave a story where, you know, this younger person joins the team and says to the boss on day one, I'm gunning for your job. You know? So, where does it go right? Where does it go wrong?

Speaker 2:
[50:17] Yeah, it's funny because we talk about Gen Z. We talk about this. I think generational differences have existed across all time. I was reading a book called The Ten Caesars. It's about ancient Rome. And they talked about generational friction. So I think generational friction isn't new. But you ask, what do I look forward? A huge one is teachability. Along with that is a bit of humility. So not going into something like, I'm smarter than this old guy. He's been doing this for so long, and now we use this thing called a computer or AI. But to be teachable, but to also bring skills that you have learned growing up into something that the organization might not have thought about. But introducing them in a way that is additive versus, I need to teach you guys a thing or two. That's where that humility comes in and the flexibility. The energy that somebody brings into the workplace if they're 22 and the excitement, it's exciting to start your first job, and a little bit intimidating. I think it goes both ways. Just those traits of teachability, humility, but just ingenuity. Bring all your creativity into it. I think you'll have a great time and a great career. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[51:31] People call you everybody's dad. Is that what Rachel says?

Speaker 2:
[51:35] She calls me America's dad.

Speaker 1:
[51:36] America. That's right. America's dad. What inspires you? The point is that people are calling you when they're in the spot. Not just business-wise, but relationally, they're stuck. I've thought that before with Josh. I'm like, just ask Dan. Just ask America's dad. Do you have a sense of what made you that way? Are there influences? Are there books you've read?

Speaker 2:
[52:07] Part of it was just the way I grew up. Being in Africa, you rely on each other to a massive degree. You rely on people in the community. When I was a kid running around the jungle, I could have died a thousand different ways. But my friends in the village we lived in took care of me and watched out for me. I learned to listen from two other people because it was a little bit of life and death there. Then my mom was a nurse and she could do things that, our kitchen table, Ginny, turned into a mini operating room. There were no hospitals for hours around. It was agrarian society, people get stitches and they go in there. I think you learn to help one another and really have that sense of, I want to be there for you. I've had a lot of interesting life experiences and I have a very innate desire to help other people be successful. I want to be useful to others, both at work and personally. It's not so much like, will this help me? I want to help other people. Somebody gave me an example in time. They said, for those people who have had the benefit of interesting experiences and some success in career or life, and you've ridden to the top of the elevator, you've got to send the elevator back down for other people. And I care deeply about not just their success, but about them as a person. And so I enjoy that type of interaction with folks.

Speaker 1:
[53:31] That made me emotional.

Speaker 2:
[53:32] I'm not sure my advice is always right.

Speaker 1:
[53:34] Oh, I guess it does matter if you give good advice to a degree.

Speaker 2:
[53:39] It does, yeah. You can love somebody to death and give them terrible advice and they come back to you. That was awful.

Speaker 1:
[53:46] Oh, but with experience and age comes good advice. I mean, I think I tell people what to do all the time.

Speaker 2:
[53:53] You know, there's one of my favorite memes, Ginny. Ginny, there's a guy who's like a little smile on his face and he says, good judgment? Well, that comes from experience. Experience? That comes from bad judgment. So, you know, we accumulate all these mistakes in life and hopefully they lead to good judgment. And I think if you have enough experience, I guess we're sharing it.

Speaker 1:
[54:14] Well, that's so interesting because I'm interviewing this Dr. Henry Cloud after you and he's like the boundaries guy. That's really actually only how I know him. It's like you have boundaries, boundaries in dating, boundaries in your marriage, boundaries, boundaries. But anyways, he's written 45 books, so he's like branched out into other topics. And the book he has coming out is about business, which is interesting because he said though, as a therapist or counselor or whatever, I sit with so many people and he's like, some people are successful and some people are not. It's not like they have wildly different talent sets or wildly different financial situations. And he's basically like, here is the path to make it work. But one of the things he talked about was intuition. And he said a lot of times people are like, I can't let go of this project because I've got the intuition for it. And he said intuition is just pattern recognition. It's something that you've done years and years and so you see these patterns. And so I do think that as you get into your career, whether that's like a high, I don't know, flutant, is that a word? I don't know. You've got this career that people all know about, or it's a career at home where you're a mom. It's like you do have more time to see the patterns. And so that helps you develop your intuition. And then you can pass that on to others. But I love that you said, I want to be useful to others. And this is the legacy of your whole family because that is what this book is. Their Future Is Shining Bright is Rachel taking the patterns that have helped her form her intuition and really caring and saying, look, we loved this. We love this. We loved homeschooling through high school. It was so wonderful for us, for the kids, for the family as a whole. It was so worthwhile. I'm so glad we didn't throw in the towel and just, you know, because of fear or feeling disqualified. We went through it and this is what's going on with our kids. And so we're going to provide this guide to homeschooling in high school and equipping children for success and fulfillment in adulthood. And it is a phenomenal book. Rachel really cares.

Speaker 2:
[56:18] You know, she does.

Speaker 1:
[56:19] I've been around a lot of authors, you know, and they're like, I just got to get out the 50,000 words or whatever. And it's like, no, she went back. She's reworking chapters, the editing process. You know, I remember she was so excited about the appendix with all that. And that's the third appendix. There's not just one, there's not just two, there's three. And really wanting to make sure that this is something that, I mean, so now she can be America's homeschool mom.

Speaker 2:
[56:44] She is, absolutely. And I'm so glad that she captured those, like, many, many years of experience and trial and error in a place where you can go and say, okay, we know this works. You know, this is reliable and it's well researched. But, you know, Ginny, thank you so much for having me on. This was just a remarkable opportunity to talk to you and catch up a little bit.

Speaker 1:
[57:03] Yeah, I loved it. Okay, we always end our show with the same question. Are you ready for it?

Speaker 2:
[57:07] I'm ready.

Speaker 1:
[57:07] What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?

Speaker 2:
[57:12] You know, I think we got caught in the bush with my friends and we have these things called driver ants. They would be in colonies of 50 to, you know, 20 to 50 million. And this carpet of driver ants started coming at us, me and my friends, and we ran like the wind. I will never forget like how, you know, scary it was like you think about being eaten alive, but also just the joy of running through the jungle with my friends as we were escaping like some big monster or something. It's just, it was great, great, great memory for me.

Speaker 1:
[57:43] No one has ever answered that, Dan. What an answer. Okay, the book is called Their Future Is Shining Bright. It would be a phenomenal addition to your summer. So we're heading into summer here. And like what you would do is you get to read through the book, you get to have a sense of what's coming. Even if you have a seven year old, you know, what's coming, what's up ahead, and you could start, I think the best sort of summer education type opportunity would be to start working through. What are writing careers? What are some different things that you can do with your life and start to cast that vision that there's a lot of vocational creativity out there, a lot of things you can do. And then as parents and children, you start to make the steps, you know, how are we going to get to the spot where we have a child who is successful and fulfilled in adulthood? The book is called Their Future Is Shining Bright. Dan, husband of Rachel, Dan Kovac, thanks for being here.

Speaker 2:
[58:33] Thank you, Ginny. Have a great day.