transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:04] I sold my car in Carvana last night. Well, that's cool.

Speaker 2:
[00:07] No, you don't understand.

Speaker 1:
[00:08] It went perfectly.

Speaker 2:
[00:09] Real offer, down to the penny.

Speaker 1:
[00:11] They're picking it up tomorrow.

Speaker 3:
[00:12] Nothing went wrong.

Speaker 4:
[00:13] So what's the problem?

Speaker 3:
[00:14] That is the problem.

Speaker 1:
[00:16] Nothing in my life goes as smoothly. I'm waiting for the catch.

Speaker 4:
[00:18] Maybe there's no catch.

Speaker 2:
[00:19] That's exactly what a catch would want me to think.

Speaker 1:
[00:22] Wow, you need to relax.

Speaker 3:
[00:23] I need a knock on wood.

Speaker 1:
[00:24] Do we have wood?

Speaker 3:
[00:25] Is this table wood? I think it's laminate.

Speaker 1:
[00:27] Okay, yeah, that's good. That's close enough.

Speaker 5:
[00:28] Car selling without a catch.

Speaker 3:
[00:30] Sell your car today on Carvana. Pick up fees may apply. Pepsi prebiotic cola in original and cherry vanilla. That Pepsi taste you love with just 30 calories and no artificial sweeteners. Pepsi prebiotic cola. Unbelievably Pepsi.

Speaker 6:
[00:49] Hi, I'm Mayim Bialik.

Speaker 1:
[00:50] And I'm Jonathan Cohen.

Speaker 6:
[00:51] And welcome to our breakdown. It is Autism Month. And we have so many interesting episodes that talk about autism, but we wanted to revisit a very popular episode from 2024 that we had with Holly Madison. She's a former Playboy playmate. She was Hugh Hefner's main girlfriend. At the time, he was 54 years her senior. She made a name for herself as one of the stars of The Girls Next Door and has gone on to be a bestselling author and the host and executive producer of the true crime series, The Playboy Murders. Holly opened up with us. This was really an early conversation in the cultural vernacular, talking about autism diagnoses late in life, and she opened up about being diagnosed in adulthood and how it changed her entire outlook on life, and in particular, how she looked back at her time as a Playboy bunny and as Hugh Hefner's girlfriend with completely different perspective in light of her autism diagnosis.

Speaker 1:
[01:53] We thought it would make the perfect conversation to re-air in honor of Autism Awareness Month. We really hope you enjoy it. As a reminder, come check us out on Substack, Mayim Bialik's Breakdown on Substack.

Speaker 6:
[02:04] We hope you enjoy our episode with Holly Madison. Break it down.

Speaker 4:
[02:11] Thanks for having me.

Speaker 6:
[02:12] I'm holding your book, which is Down the Rabbit Hole, but there's so many other things that you do as part of your public persona. You've had a very long and really interesting career since coming to our TV screens. I wonder if you can talk a little bit about how you grew up. You were born in Alaska, is that right?

Speaker 4:
[02:37] I was actually born in Oregon. I lived there until I was about two and a half, three. Then we moved to Alaska. We lived on Prince of Wales Island. We lived in a couple of different places that were really, really remote to the point where you're basically living in the woods and like a mobile home and we would have to order our groceries ahead of time and it would come on a ship and everybody's groceries would come at once. You'd go drive, meet the ship, get your groceries, things like that. Then by the time I was in kindergarten, we were in a town called Craig, which is a very small town, but they have a school and things like that. You know what trips me out thinking back on it as a parent now is we didn't even have a doctor in that town or even on the island. I asked my mom about it. Because as a parent now, I can't even imagine that because just my kids fall and get a scrape and I panic and I freak out. I was like, how did you do that? Was there even a doctor's office? And she's like, no, there was a registered nurse who lived there. But I remember once we were on vacation down in Oregon visiting my aunt and uncle and we went to this place called Enchanted Forest, which is this little amusement park, and I ended up breaking my leg there and getting a cast and everything. But when I had to go to the doctor to get the cast checked and get the cast taken off, you have to fly from back home somewhere else. You have to fly to a completely different island just to see a doctor. So it was a lot. And I don't know how my parents did it really.

Speaker 6:
[03:52] Why did they do that?

Speaker 4:
[03:55] My dad was in the timber industry and he just kept getting promoted and moving a lot. And then we moved out of there when I was like 10, like in fourth grade, we moved back to Oregon. So we moved around a lot when I was a kid.

Speaker 6:
[04:05] Jonathan is Canadian. Jonathan, you have a lot to say about timber and logs. Would you like to share anything?

Speaker 4:
[04:12] Where are you from in Canada?

Speaker 1:
[04:14] I'm from Toronto, which is like obviously a major city. So you know, I did not chop any timber. The only thing I can contribute to the timber conversation is the famous Canadian cartoon of my generation, The Log Driver, which is a shout out to all of our Canadian listeners.

Speaker 6:
[04:30] No one knows this except like a handful of Canadians. Jonathan, would you like to sing the lumber song, timber song?

Speaker 1:
[04:37] I'm going to be too, I struggled to be put on the spot, but literally there's a fantastic song. If you Google, I'm sure YouTube has it. It's The Log Driver. And he goes down and down this river dancing from log to log. And it's a Canadian classic of the early 80s.

Speaker 4:
[04:54] Oh my God, that's so funny. That reminds me of like the Disney Paul Bunyan cartoon. I don't know if you've ever seen that. I get that visual.

Speaker 6:
[05:01] But yeah, he's shown me this Canadian video thing. And it looks like it was made in the 60s. Because Canada is just a little different. The 80s in Canada feels a little bit like the 60s in America. I don't know what was going on.

Speaker 1:
[05:17] But we've caught up since. We've caught up since.

Speaker 6:
[05:20] Okay, so then you moved back to Oregon.

Speaker 4:
[05:23] Yeah, when I was about 10.

Speaker 6:
[05:25] There's a lot of curiosity I have about people who enter, for example, the Playboy Universe. Meaning like I'm very curious, like, oh, was that something that was, you know, I grew up at a time where there was like a little stigma to that, meaning it was like, ooh, that's racy. And like that's a grown up thing. And, you know, for our kids now, like a lot of the stuff that you used to have to buy a Playboy magazine to look at, you can just find, you know, in the palm of your hand on a cell phone. So, you know, so much has changed. But I am curious, you know, before we get into sort of, you know, before you got into, you know, the beauty world, the presentational world, which was, you know, when you were in college, did you have any notions as a kid of like, oh, this is a world I could someday get into, or this is something we don't do, or was pornography like something that you thought about? I'm just curious.

Speaker 4:
[06:17] You know, it was kind of, there were all kinds of influences when I was a kid that kind of led to that decision. I mean, the first one I think was, I really, as a little kid, loved Madonna. I thought she was so cool. And I thought she was one of the rare examples in media back in the 80s at that time, of like a woman who seemed really in charge, which is kind of curious. But yeah, I really liked her. And then I remember when I was in fourth grade, my aunt gave me this paper doll book, and it was Marilyn Monroe Paper Dolls. And it had like a little biography of her on the back and like all the years in the list of her film. And I became really obsessed with her and just kind of like the glamour industry in general, really, you know, made an impression on me. And I knew what Playboy was from a young age, because like my dad had a subscription. And I remember when the magazine would come to the house, like they used to have this thing on the front where there was like a hidden bunny logo and you had to find it. And of course, when you're a kid and you hear that somebody's like looking for a bunny on the cover of a magazine, like that seems like it's something for kids, even though it's not. So that was like intriguing. And I remember just thinking it was funny that there were naked people in a magazine. So it certainly wasn't something I thought about a lot, but I can look back and see like the little seeds of things that made that kind of thing seem attractive to me for sure.

Speaker 6:
[07:30] And obviously, you know, this is kind of an unspoken truth is that there's certain people who, let's say in high school, in college, in their twenties, are like, oh, that's a person who might be in Playboy. And there's other people who, for whom that's not a possibility. Was there a point where you were like, I'm pretty, I'm pretty in a special way? Like, this is a world I could get into. Like, did that occur to you?

Speaker 4:
[07:55] You know, it wasn't really that I thought I was that good looking or anything. It was more what I saw with Playboy was they always had this feature every month, the Playmate of the Month. And it was always like a small town girl or whatever. And you'd see they'd have a data sheet and they'd have like candid pictures of her growing up. And they usually looked pretty ordinary in those photos. It was more, I thought Playboy could make me look like that. I kind of had this, I mean, there's a lot of women who would try out for Playboy every year, so it was pretty competitive. But growing up where I grew up and everything, which was fairly conservative, I kind of felt like not a lot of people would be so daring to do something like that. And there's probably not a lot of women trying out, and they could make me look that good. And that could be such a good stepping stone to doing whatever I wanted in the entertainment industry. Because back then, there were a lot, not a lot, but there were a few women like Pamela Anderson or Jenny McCarthy or Anna Nicole Smith, who kind of came from that world. So it kind of seemed like if you wanted to do that kind of thing, that would be a good stepping stone.

Speaker 6:
[08:48] And so when you actually sort of entered that world, it obviously wasn't like, you know, Playboy was not like the first thing that you did in terms of like, you know, putting yourself out there. But it was when you were, were you in college and you were trying to find a way to make some money? Is that sort of part of that origin story?

Speaker 4:
[09:09] Yeah, definitely. I was in college in Southern California and I was just like working as a waitress and auditioning and trying to kind of do everything at once and kind of failing at everything at once because I was spread too thin. And I started getting invited to parties at the Playboy Mansion, which at the time were like the really cool exclusive parties to go to.

Speaker 6:
[09:25] Okay, so hold on one second, because I went to college in Southern California and never across my plate of social activities or outings did this become a possibility. So I think we may need you to, we may need you to back up like just a little bit because you did some modeling, right?

Speaker 4:
[09:43] Yeah, one of the jobs I had was I worked for Hawaiian Tropic, and they would hire women to like go, you know, just show up in a Hawaiian Tropic shirt at an event or go take pictures with people or something. So it was like a super easy way to make money. And at one of those events, Hugh Hefner's doctor came to one of the events and he knew like he had a doctor.

Speaker 6:
[10:01] Alaska didn't have a doctor, but Hugh Hefner had a doctor.

Speaker 4:
[10:06] Exactly. And he was talking to the organizer of the whole event and he said, I want to invite all the Hawaiian Tropic girls to the Playboy Mansion for a party. And I was super excited and my roommate ended up getting invited too. And yeah.

Speaker 6:
[10:23] So, I'm gonna, this is also I feel a tremendous amount of respect for you and I want you to know that that's where this question is coming from. When you say, like I really I want to know because you're very articulate and you are clearly comfortable talking about these aspects that I think are really important. And I think for people listening, it's important to have you talk about it. When you say, you know, it was an easy way to make money, right? Which I get it, like of all the things that we have to do to make money, you know, standing there looking like yourself and smiling. I mean, that sounds very easy. But when you look back and you kind of think about what that world was sort of constructing, does it still seem easy or does it seem like, gosh, you have to kind of suspend, you know, you have to suspend the analysis of what it means in order to do it. Did you have that sense? Or was it like, I'm young, I'm pretty, they want to pay me to do this, it's not a big deal?

Speaker 4:
[11:23] The Hawaiian Tropic part of it, I still look back and I'm like, that seems easy. The whole Playboy world part of it, not so much. But I mean, you know, just me being in college and being so scattered and trying to like pay for headshots and go on auditions and make enough money to pay my tuition that wasn't covered by scholarships and keep my grades up to keep those. I was so all over the place that having an easy gig, I did not care. I was just like, I'm just going to show up in this shirt and smile, you know.

Speaker 6:
[11:49] Did you also work at a Hooters?

Speaker 4:
[11:50] I did. Yeah. And I actually loved working there. I thought it was so fun. I'm on the spectrum. I was undiagnosed back then and I always had more of a difficult time navigating social situations. And I felt like at Hooters, they almost had like a script for you. They were very picky about what they wanted you to do and how they wanted you to interact with customers, who you talked to first. You know, if your tables were all taken care of, you'd sit down and do a card trick or something. And having like a script to interact with people was so helpful to me. And it's the most unlikely place I could have found it. It sounds so weird to say that, you know, working at Hooters really like helped me with my self-esteem and being able to interact with people. But like having a kind of script to interact with, like all kinds of real life people that are coming in and out of this establishment, it really was helpful to me.

Speaker 6:
[12:40] This is a really not important question, but I'm obsessed with the fact that Hooters waitresses have to wear nylons with socks and sneakers.

Speaker 4:
[12:48] Yes, no, it's a crazy, crazy combination, but I can tell you exactly why. I mean, not only because it makes everybody's legs look smoother and whatever, but when I first went to Hooters, I remember I like barely had ever worn a bathing suit and in my life at that point. And I thought this would be a place I could probably make more money in tips than like a regular restaurant. I went to go work there and the outfit kind of looked like nothing. Like, yeah, it's a tank top. It's like little shorts. But when I put it on, like all those materials were so thin. It sounds weird to say now, but I shit you not. Sorry if I can't curse on here. Might have to leap me out. But I felt so naked. I don't know. It was just like a thin little tank top and these tiny little shorts.

Speaker 5:
[13:29] Yeah, it's not a lot of clothes, Holly.

Speaker 4:
[13:31] I mean, it's really not a lot of clothes. It's not a lot of clothes, but I can't explain to you just how nothing it felt. And also like with the shorts, like your butt is hanging out of the bottom.

Speaker 6:
[13:43] Yeah, that's the point. But the nylons and the socks is to me, like I remember when tights and socks were a thing because I was raised in the, you know, 80s, like, and it was so uncomfortable because you'd have like them pulling on your toes, the tights and then the socks over it and you'd be so sweaty. And I would just look and I'm like, why does the whole outfit is so strange to me? I mean, not that I think you should have to wear high heels if you're in those shorts, but I'm just so obsessed with the like, it's like a Laker girls look, I guess too.

Speaker 4:
[14:14] Yeah, it's very like workout. Like if you saw like a cute girl out jogging or something, but at the time I was so thankful for the nylons because I felt so naked in that outfit. I was like, thank God, cause I don't want my actual ass cheek out right now.

Speaker 6:
[14:29] Okay, I just had to ask because I think it's really funny.

Speaker 4:
[14:32] No, it is funny.

Speaker 6:
[14:34] And it's anyway, whenever I've seen the Hooters uniforms, also the sneakers look like grandma's sneakers.

Speaker 4:
[14:39] Like, yeah, they're very like 80s Reebok.

Speaker 6:
[14:42] Exactly. I'm just fascinated with that whole aesthetic.

Speaker 1:
[14:47] Mayim Bialik's Breakdown is supported by Kachava.

Speaker 6:
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Speaker 1:
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Speaker 6:
[20:10] Okay, so you then, you enter the sort of Playboy world. What year was that?

Speaker 4:
[20:20] I went to my first party in 2000 and I was 21.

Speaker 1:
[20:24] Wow.

Speaker 4:
[20:25] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[20:25] What was that first party like? Like, were you intrigued? Were you like overwhelmed? What was, what was that first experience?

Speaker 4:
[20:32] The first party really blew me away because it was something that like all the girls I worked with at my restaurant really wanted to go to and maybe only one or two got invited, you know. So I was really excited to go and it was just I'd never been to a party that was so big or so beautiful looking and, you know, you'd see like minor celebrities here and there and I'd never seen a celebrity before really. And they would have like all these lavish buffets out and it was just and they had monkeys you could feed grapes to. It was just a lot and I'd never really seen anything like it. And I did I remember I didn't even stay that long the first night. You'd think, you know, I'd be excited about it and want to like stay until they close the place down. But I don't know. I just felt almost like overstimulated, like I had enough and my roommate and I left after a couple hours. And I just thought I had this really cool story. But then I started getting invited back to like the pool parties and things like that. So I would go to the pool parties every Sunday. And it just felt like a nice little escape from everything else I was doing.

Speaker 6:
[21:28] And I would imagine when you're there, there's also a notion of like a lot of people are there. And this sort of obviously evolved into what was your life for many years, is that this environment is one where women are brought in to sort of be auditioned, to then be utilized for lack of a better word. And it took two years from your first party until you sort of had a role that was very, very prominent as sort of like the number one, as it were. What happened in the course of those two years? Meaning, was it kind of like more parties and then you start getting more familiar and then you sort of become part of the closer-knit family? Like, how did those two years evolve?

Speaker 4:
[22:26] Well, I was going to the parties for about a year before I moved in and I started going to the pool parties, which were much more smaller, intimate gatherings and have had multiple girlfriends at the time and sometimes they would be down there, sometimes I wouldn't really see them too much. I was invited to go out with them because he would go out to clubs with them several times a week and at first I declined. Then I got to a point where I was living with two roommates and they were not renewing the lease we had, which I thought we were and I was so broke and in such credit card debt. You have to have good credit to get your own apartment in LA. My other friend I was close to at the restaurant had moved back home because things weren't really working out for her. So I was in a spot where I was like, yeah, I don't know what I'm going to do. I don't have a place to live. When I was at the mansion party on one Sunday, one of the butlers was telling me how one of the girlfriends had just left and got kicked out. I thought, well, maybe I should go out with them and give this thing a try. Because over that year, I'd gotten to know Hef a little bit, which of course was not very well, but I thought he seemed like a really nice guy and I really looked up to him and admired everything he accomplished. And when you're surrounded by all his friends who really look up to him, I thought, I think I could do this. And at the time, all his girlfriends were getting in the magazine. And I thought, this is going to be my crazy college age experience that I'm going to do. And of course, I ended up getting in way deeper over my head than I ever thought. But at the time, it seemed like scary, but also exciting.

Speaker 6:
[23:59] Yeah, I'm just, I'm trying to wrap my head around that kind of progression. You know, I guess I'm curious, you know, I mean, what ended up happening, you know, was essentially, you know, documented. You guys had a, you know, you all had a reality show. And, you know, for many seasons of your life, you know, a lot of this stuff also was, you know, sort of played out publicly, which, you know, must have been a very different experience. But, you know, before we get to sort of some of, you know, the really interesting realizations you had, I wonder if you can, you know, talk a little bit about those years. Was there part of it that felt, you know, like this is my career and I get to be on TV and I have all these things happening for me? Like, I'm curious what parts felt, you know, gratifying.

Speaker 4:
[24:57] Oh my gosh, I feel like there's so many different layers to it because over the seven years I was there, it kind of changed a little bit. Like, the first three or four years, there was no TV show or anything like that. It was more all the girlfriends wanted to be in the magazine. And right around that time, he decided he wanted to stop putting his girlfriends in the magazine. And there were all kinds of crazy interpersonal dynamics with just women coming and going and competition and people wanting to get certain girls out of spots. And of course, he was feeding the drama too, but I didn't realize it at the time. I felt like I was really bonding with him, and he was the person I really stuck to and felt like I was in love with. And I look back on those first three or four years, when Bridget and I talk about it on our podcast now, we kind of call it the mean girl era because everybody was just mean to each other, and it was constant fighting and constantly feeling like the rug was going to get pulled out from under you. And then once you're back in the real world, you're going to be back with all the same problems you had, but now all the judgment that comes along with being perceived as somebody who dated an 80-year-old man, so there's a lot going on in those first four years. But then we kind of had a cast change where a lot of the women got kicked out, another one moved in, there were three of us who got along pretty well, and we're just trying to make the best of the situation. And then the TV show came along, which looking back, it was a good opportunity, but at the time I was really scared because reality TV in the early 2000s was brand new. A lot of it was very much like what I called humiliation television, just trying to catch people doing really weird, embarrassing things, and then editing it and really playing it up. So I was scared to go into it. Like as much as I'd always dreamed of like being a TV host and auditioning for those types of roles, I never in a million years thought I would be like famous for my personal life or anything like that. So I was terrified of it at first, but I felt like I had to do it unless I wanted to completely start my life over with all the problems I spoke of just now. And it turned out being a good opportunity for the situation, I feel.

Speaker 6:
[26:53] So I'm curious about, especially those first three or four years. I know that monogamy is very unpopular and it's really tacky for me to even ask about monogamy as a concept. But I guess I am just kind of curious because you said, you grew up in a kind of conservative place, and especially if you grew up in small places. And I understand things are different and I also understand that monogamy is not for everyone. But the decision that you made was to be part of a polyamorous, I don't know what you call it, polyamorous relationship. I don't know what to call it. You made a commitment to be in a relationship with someone who you knew was in a relationship with many people. And that was also, as you mentioned, like kind of a rotating door and experience. I'm curious if there were parts of it that for you did feel like a healthy relationship. Like, you know, did you have trepidation about that? Were you like, gosh, I wish I wasn't one of several? Or, you know, what was that like to wrap your head around?

Speaker 4:
[28:02] Well, in the beginning, you know, I really liked Hef as a person. I went and looked up to him and admired him and all the things. I wouldn't have gotten to the relationship if I didn't. But I was thinking of it as a very temporary thing. You know, when I'd been coming up to the parties for a year, I'd seen other girls come and go and they would only stay there maybe like a year max. So I just thought, you know, this is the crazy thing I'm going to do when I'm in college. I'm going to look back on it one day and that's going to be my crazy story in life. I mean, it is. I didn't know it would be, you know, as long and drawn out as it was, but... And then, you know, I started to get more emotionally attached to Hef and then I wasn't happy with the other girls and I made that really clear. And, you know, eventually the number of girls went down and eventually, you know, the whole bedroom thing wasn't happening anymore. So things did kind of progress that way. But I mean, I'm in a space now where I would never want to be in a relationship like that again. And, you know, back then I didn't even think of that as something I wanted to do as a relationship. It just seemed like, oh, this is just something, you know, crazy I'm doing in college. It's going to be a year max, you know?

Speaker 6:
[29:06] Did it ever occur to you that maybe you could or would be a one and only?

Speaker 4:
[29:12] Not in the beginning, not at all. I didn't think it was an option. Even when I was in the space of like being his, you know, quote unquote, main girlfriend, I didn't think that was something that was going to be me either because what I'd seen before, what I knew about before, it was always like the oldest girl in the group for whatever reason was like the main girlfriend.

Speaker 6:
[29:29] Yeah, I was going to ask, I don't think I understand what it means to be the main girlfriend. Like, I don't even know if I know in my personal relationship that I'm in.

Speaker 4:
[29:37] Yeah, the main girlfriend is like, that would be the one who shared a room with him and would always stand next to him and kind of be the one presented in the media as like, well, this is my main girlfriend and these are these other girls I date.

Speaker 6:
[29:49] Does he like you the best?

Speaker 4:
[29:51] I mean, I think theoretically that's supposed to be what it was. But I cannot get into his head even today.

Speaker 6:
[29:57] No, no, no, but I'm just saying in theoretically speaking.

Speaker 4:
[30:00] Yeah, I think theoretically that's what it's supposed to be. But it never occurred to me that would be me because I was one of the youngest when I moved in. What I had seen before was the main girlfriend was always like the oldest one and then when that happened.

Speaker 6:
[30:12] By old, you mean like 26.

Speaker 4:
[30:15] No, 100 percent. Yeah, it was like 28 or something. It's crazy.

Speaker 6:
[30:18] That's the old hag.

Speaker 1:
[30:20] Do you think there was something that you can put your finger on that was the connection between the two of you that made him say, oh, we have this thing and that is then equated to you being the main girlfriend?

Speaker 4:
[30:32] Yeah, I think it was a couple of things. I think one, I was a homebody and I had been doing so much with college and work and things like that, that I was looking forward to having a little bit of a break. I saw the mansion as a place where I could potentially get back on my feet, save a little bit of money, take a pause, figure out what I really wanted to do. I wasn't interested in trying to go out and get with other guys and things like that, which a lot of the other girls wanted to do. They were there to party and have fun, which is great, good for them, but it just wasn't me. I like being home, I like watching the old movies on the movie nights and things like that. We bonded over things like that. We both love old movies and things. But I also think it was the fact that I was younger and nerdier than the other women and easier to manipulate, and probably more emotionally needy than I even knew I was at the time. So I was definitely the one he could manipulate more and love bomb and things like that, and make me feel attached to the situation. Because he was very co-dependent, and as much as he liked to be surrounded by so many women, he always wanted somebody that was there at his side all the time. So I think I was a good candidate for that without really knowing it.

Speaker 6:
[31:45] Was there pressure to look a particular way? I know you've talked about body dysmorphia, you've talked about some of the augmentation that you chose to have. Was that part of it?

Speaker 4:
[31:57] Yeah, the explicit pressure from Hef was more to stay thin. Like he was not shy about making comments to women in front of other people saying, oh, you've gained weight, you need to hit the gym, you need to stop eating the desserts, things like that. And then there was kind of an implicit pressure that maybe came more from myself where it's like, well, I really want to be in the magazine and I'm not getting picked. So what do these other girls have that I don't? Maybe I should get my nose done. Maybe my boobs need to be bigger. So it was a whole, you know, shit storm in my head.

Speaker 6:
[32:25] Yeah, I'm curious if you can talk a little bit about this notion of like you've kind of mentioned like Stockholm Syndrome and sort of like this manipulation aspect. I wonder if you can talk about, you know, in the context of especially, you know, you're in a relationship that, you know, to the public view is very sexualized, meaning like, you know, like everybody like talks about that and like that's a thing. It's something that like you were part of a culture where, you know, women is a sexual commodity. Like that's what, you know, people talked about. And here you are, like, you know, you're a person. I mean, all the women there, right? You have your own thoughts, your own dreams, your own, you know, things. What was going on, you know, in terms of the pressure, you know, to sort of stay? I know that there was a lot of control of finances and a lot of sort of dangling that carrot. Can you talk a little bit about, you know, especially that, you know, now that you're in a marriage and you're a mom, you know, looking back at, like, who that girl was, what was, you know, sort of the motivation for you and how were you kept in place?

Speaker 4:
[33:42] Well, I think for me, one of the biggest things, looking back, one of the biggest reasons I was afraid to leave is just fear of judgment from everyone. I felt like, you know, I was already dealing with a lot of things before I moved into the mansion and that's kind of why I moved in there. I thought, oh, this is going to be my chance to get back on my feet and everything. This is going to be a great opportunity. But going back to what was before and having to deal with everybody's judgment, I was really scared of. So I think that was a big fear for me. But also we weren't allowed to work outside of the mansion. You know, I thought I could at least keep my waitressing job during the day. He didn't even want me to do that after a couple months. So, you know, I was still in school. I was doing like a real estate investment course at UCLA, the program that they had at their extension. And always trying to do things. But I never felt confident enough. Like I had my footing financially or knew what my next thing was going to be in a way that would make me feel confident enough to kind of like brave everybody's judgment, which was kind of like what was, you know, in my head and stuff. And then of course, there's like the guilt of the relationship because he is very love bombing and like, you know, tries to make everything seem so romantic and codependent. And that was something I was not emotionally or mentally prepared for at my age at all. You know, I was somebody who always had a hard time connecting with other people. And when you're dealing with somebody who knows how to operate like that, I felt like this is the person I'm connecting with. This is the person, you know, maybe I'm not meant to be with somebody my age, you know.

Speaker 6:
[35:06] Had you had boyfriends like before entering this stage of your life?

Speaker 4:
[35:12] Yeah, I had a high school boyfriend, but I was not like sophisticated and dating at all. I didn't really date in college or anything. I maybe would do like a coffee date here and there, but nothing really.

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Speaker 6:
[36:46] When you look back on what it was like to be in a relationship with someone who could be your grandfather, I mean, in terms of age, what do you think you had to tell yourself to stay and what do you see now was actually going on?

Speaker 4:
[37:04] I think it's a lot of things. I think one is I never really wanted an ordinary life, so when you're coming from that perspective, it's easy to veer off and when other people have questions for you. Sometimes you get on the defensive, which I think is what I did a lot of times. Like if outsiders, people I knew from high school or whatever, my family would ask me questions about it, I'd always give them the very sanitized version of what was going on just out of a place of like defensiveness or maybe not being ready to emotionally address certain things myself. Then when you get in that habit of being defensive and being like, no, everything's great. No, he's the nicest guy. No, you don't understand. It's not like that. It's not what people say. You start to kind of believe it yourself. And then I would kind of get in this weird space where I'm just trying to figure out, okay, well, I've committed so fully to this in so many ways, whether it's feeling like I'm in a committed relationship with Hef or feeling like I've gone to bat for this relationship with everybody I know so much. How can I fix this and how can I make this place better? That was the mindset I was stuck in for so long. Because people, if you complain about a relationship that's like emotionally abusive or whatever, people will always want to ask like, well, why didn't you leave? I mean, ultimately I did after a number of years. But I think for me, part of it was my solution in my mind wasn't leaving. My solution was how do I make this place better? And I would confide a lot in Bridget, one of the other girlfriends who I'm still very close friends with now. We host our podcast together. But she was like that too, because she wanted to live there for a few years and she wanted to have a good time. She didn't want it to be drama. So we were always of the mindset of like, we would complain and vent about whatever we were going through, but we're like, how can we make this better? And I think it did get a little better for a while, but ultimately it couldn't be fixed.

Speaker 6:
[38:47] Well, I think what you said really resonated with me, just as a human being. Obviously it hasn't been in that kind of situation. But I really think you kind of hit it on the head. If you don't want to tell people what's actually going on because it's too complicated, they'll just tell you, just leave. It's so easy. Like, why would you stay? Then you have to construct a lie. And as you said, like the only way to kind of like survive is to start believing it yourself. And I think, and you talk about this in your book and you've been very open about it. And I wonder if you can talk about it here, because again, I think a lot of people can relate. You know, alcohol is a good way to keep that lie going. Drugs is a good way to keep that lie going. You know, numbing out in sexual situations, which is often when intimacy becomes the most real for us, right? You know, being able to be numb, being able to be okay with, you know, situations that in our more sober moments, we might say that's not acceptable. I wonder if you can talk a bit about some of the, you know, the numbing either with alcohol, you've talked about with alcohol, and you know, some of the numbing that has to go on. And when, when and how do you break that spell?

Speaker 4:
[40:09] Yeah, I used to drink a lot. We would go out at least twice a week. And then those were always the nights that all of us would have to go up into the bedroom. And I would drink so much when we went out, just because I found that situation so embarrassing and humiliating. And you're around all these other women doing the most intimate things and they're like talking shit and making fun of you right then and there. So I would always drink to like the point of oblivion, like at least twice a week in the beginning until that kind of...

Speaker 6:
[40:33] That sounds horrible, Holly. Can we just talk about it?

Speaker 4:
[40:36] It's an absolute nightmare. It's like describing a literal nightmare. So I would go out, anytime we went out, I would get just obliterated drunk and definitely would disassociate during those times for sure. And luckily about halfway through when kind of the cast of characters changed at the mansion and we started shooting the show, he was so high on the show and that gave him so much validation. He loved that so much. He wasn't really into trying to go out to nightclubs twice a week to try and get all the attention and meet all the girls and bring everybody upstairs. So that was put to rest after a while, thank God. But for the first three or four years, it was a nightmare.

Speaker 1:
[41:18] Three or four years is a long time. Twice a week for three or four years is a really long time.

Speaker 4:
[41:22] Especially in your 20s, time does not fly in your 20s.

Speaker 6:
[41:26] You mentioned all the other kind of people and personalities that you were surrounded with for the years that you lived at the Playboy Mansion. What was competition like?

Speaker 4:
[41:37] It was really bad because I don't even know what we were competing for. Maybe a spot in the magazine, maybe other people wanted my spot as main girlfriend. Maybe it was attention. I don't even know what it was, but it was kind of the feeling of, you're living in this house, it's also your economic survival, and you feel like you could be kicked out at a moment's notice, because I'd seen that happen to other women, literally had their stuff packed and sent out the back gate. Just feeling like somebody could make up a lie to you and tell Hef, and he'd be upset and kick you out at any moment, and you're not getting along with these girls. It was a really unsettling feeling.

Speaker 6:
[42:12] That's so intense.

Speaker 4:
[42:13] It really was.

Speaker 6:
[42:15] Part of what supports the notion of certain aspects of the patriarchy, as we know it, is the ability for us to suspend disbelief because the only way that... And look, Playboy is an empire that is now, I know, not associated with the Hefner family, and it's 80% women and all these things. But those kind of industries are predicated on this suspension of disbelief. Right? I would hear Hugh Hefner talk about this. I wasn't a huge fan of him, but you know, would sometimes listen to interviews and he would say, like, we're creating a fantasy, right? We're creating this fantasy world that people can buy into. And you know, what you have done, which I think can only happen because of the era that you lived in, is you've really, like, smashed that image. You know, you've really been kind of a warrior for truth in this arena, because everyone wants to believe that it's awesome to be in group sex situations where, like, everything's free, and it's all amazing, and everyone's beautiful. Like, that's a fantasy that people chase. You know, it's something that the porn industry, you know, has created a universe out of, you know, besides, you know, this kind of life. Um, I wonder, was there some sort of moment where you were like, I feel brave enough to talk about this and to smash that image? Did you feel, you know, some sort of, like, need? Did it feel like an obligation? Was it something you needed for yourself? Because it's a huge, huge kind of violation, right, of this code of, we pretend like everything's amazing, and that this is the life that every girl wants, right?

Speaker 4:
[44:11] Yeah. No, it happened very organically. It happened maybe, like, three or four years after I left the mansion. It just got to a point where I had just met my husband, I was pregnant, and people would still, even though I hadn't worked with Playboy for several years, people would still come up to me every single day and ask, how's Hef? Don't you miss the mansion? Are you sad you and Hef didn't get married? And I would always kind of just, like, say nice things, just because I thought that was, like, the nice thing to do and the easy way to dismiss it. I'd be like, oh yeah, everybody's great, blah, blah, blah. And it just got to a point where, when you're saying those kinds of things, you are living a lie and it gets to the point where you can feel it in your gut. You just want to, like, lash out. You get, like, a physical reaction. So I felt like I can't do this anymore. And I knew that, you know, each and every person coming up to me, if I were to go, you know what, sit down, let me tell you a story. Like, that's not gonna work. So I'm just like, I just have to come out with it. I just finally have to tell my story. And I knew that anybody who was associated with, you know, the Playboy world before, even like close friends of mine, were probably gonna hate me because that's the way it works in that world. Like, I just couldn't do it anymore. I didn't even think about whether or not the book would be successful. I didn't think about whether or not I'd make money about it. I didn't care about what people thought of me. I just felt like I had to do it or I just couldn't go on with my life anymore.

Speaker 6:
[45:31] Were you in therapy at any point in this? Was that part of your process? Was there like a healing that needed to happen?

Speaker 4:
[45:38] I think there was definitely a healing that needed to happen. And I think one of the other things that triggered me too before I decided to write the book is I went back. I made this coffee table book, a girls next door coffee table book when we were there. And it was like pictures of us at the mansion and things like that. And I had gone back to that book to find a picture of an outfit for Instagram. And I'm looking at pictures of myself and probably nobody else will be able to tell. It's just me that can tell because I know myself. And I have this big grin on my face but I can tell it's a fake grin. And it all kind of came rushing back. And I was like, holy shit, I was really miserable. You know, and I just, I just felt like I had to tell the truth. But as far as getting back to therapy, sorry, I mean, I've been in therapy on and off. I remember when I was at the mansion, I kind of broke down to half at one point. This was before the show. And I said, I really, you know, I want to be able to work while I'm here. Like I don't like not being able to work. And I kind of broke down and said I was depressed. I didn't know what was going to happen to me in the future and things like that. And I said, I want to go see a therapist. And he said, I don't want you seeing a therapist because they're just going to tell you to leave, go talk to my secretary. So I did. And then they found a therapist for me that like they approved. It was like somebody who's like friends with their doctor. And he put me on antidepressants and said that I was just stressed out because this TV show was coming up, which I was stressed out about that. But that was the only experience of therapy I had at the mansion. I've done therapy. I did therapy maybe a couple years after I left the mansion. But I remember at the time, I was mostly talking about like current work drama and like guys I was dating and things like that. I wasn't really getting into it. I would say the book was probably, you know, my biggest piece of therapy.

Speaker 6:
[47:16] Some of the sort of revelations that you had about being on the spectrum and kind of getting that diagnosis. Some of the insights you've had around that are so interesting. You've talked about how social connection can be hard for some people on the spectrum and that fame was this like instant manufactured connection that actually didn't take a lot of social work on your part because a lot of it is orchestrated. I wonder if you can talk a little bit about how this diagnosis came about and then how you sort of see some of the social connection stuff coming together and also when you think about your decision making, I wonder if that kind of factors in when you look back.

Speaker 4:
[48:09] A hundred percent. I was talking to my mom about it maybe like five years ago and she said she always suspected since I was a child that maybe I was on the spectrum. Because people weren't really getting diagnosed so much with it in like the 80s and 90s. I remember when I was a kid reading a babysitter's club book about a girl with autism and the character was completely non-verbal and I thought that's what autism has to look like. Which of course it can sometimes anytime I talk about this I always like to acknowledge that there's a spectrum and I don't represent everyone. Because I think sometimes people who maybe are a bit further on the spectrum feel unseen if I'm talking about it and things seem to go relatively easy for me. But she would notice I would be zoning out a lot as a child and nobody knew what that was. I would just be like staring into space and frozen for long periods of time. She never shared that with me. When I was growing up, I always just, I knew something was a little bit different about me, but I thought, well, maybe I'm just like extremely introverted or maybe it's because I grew up in a really remote area. I'm just not quote unquote normal. My sister always was and she grew up the same place as me, but I was like making any excuse I could for it. But when my mom shared that she thought maybe I was on the spectrum, I looked up the symptoms and I felt like they really resonated with me. I started talking about it on podcasts because when I was going back and talking about my experiences, I thought, well, maybe there's something to this. I feel like I felt like I was meant to be in love with an older person because he's very good at connecting with people and manipulating and things like that. And I always had a hard time connecting with people my age. Like the way I describe how it feels to me is I always feel like there's like three panes of glass between me and anybody else. And it seems like there's not between other people. And I do feel like it affected my decision making process. I feel like one of the reasons I wanted to be famous is not because I loved any sort of performing so much, but because I thought, and I didn't realize I was thinking this at the time. It was totally a subconscious thing. But I think I thought that that would be a shortcut to human connection. Like I'd get so much love and so much connection if I were just like famous and known. And I always say spoiler alert, that's not what happens. But I think that's kind of what I was needing and wanting at the time.

Speaker 6:
[50:26] It's definitely kind of a surprising thing. I think that there's a real kind of veil over the world that you lived in and the Playboy world. And I think it's really interesting because I think you're right. I think a lot of people would be like, she couldn't be autistic, like you couldn't do all those things. But I think it's really, it's interesting the way you frame it. I'm curious, what is your current relationship like? Do you feel like now that you know this about yourself, connection comes easier? Has that been a sort of natural progression from a very different life to a more traditional life, it sounds like, that you have now?

Speaker 4:
[51:15] Yeah, I feel like me just finally having the diagnosis, which I got last summer, it's just been so helpful to me as far as, you know, connecting with people and letting other people know what's going on with me. And I think, you know, sometimes others don't take certain behaviors of mine that I might not even realize I'm doing so personally, so it is helpful. The guy I've been with for the last five years, I was with him before, you know, I started looking into getting the diagnosis and he's always, I've been really lucky with him because he's always been super understanding and kind of gets me and where I'm coming from and he's somebody I've been able to talk to about it. So, you know, it was, you know, I'm 45 years old, so I've been through a good handful of relationships and, you know, finally feel like I've learned a lot from them and at a better place.

Speaker 6:
[51:58] What's it like parenting? Do you notice things that come up as being a person on the spectrum that you've been able to flag for yourself? Do you feel like you get any sort of particular guidance or support? Like, I'm just curious what that interaction is like with your kids.

Speaker 4:
[52:16] Well, when I got my diagnosis, that was what I expressed to the doctor that I was most concerned about. Like, I'm, you know, 45 years old now, I'm okay with who I am, you know, if people don't like it, whatever. But I wanted to make sure I was expressing myself to my kids and that they weren't feeling emotionally neglected because maybe I feel like I'm interacting with them in a certain way and maybe they're not getting that. So that's kind of helpful to just making sure I'm a little more conscious about like masking my facial expressions when I'm with them because I know how important facial expressions are to little kids understanding things. Or I would do weird things that like my ex-husband would notice. We co-parent really well together. He's an amazing dad. Like he would notice, like my son, of course, like every mom, I think my son is just the cutest thing in the world. So even sometimes when he would be distressed about something, sometimes I would kind of laugh because I just think he's so cute, like everything he does. And he'd be upset, like, why are you laughing? And I'm like, no, I just think you're so cute. Like I'm listening, but I think you're so cute. And, you know, their dad was a little bit alarmed by that. Like, why are you laughing? But it's just like things come out differently and they come out weird. And it's definitely something that I want to keep my eye on and the whole reason, besides being able to speak publicly about it in a responsible way, that was one of the reasons I wanted to get diagnosed, but also just so I know that I'm interacting with my kids the best way I can.

Speaker 6:
[53:40] And I'm just curious looking back at your trajectory and your time in college and the decisions that led you on your path. When you think about it now as a mom, like how do you frame it? Like if you were to think about, gosh, what was Holly like as that kid? Right, you were someone, obviously, we're all someone's kid. But I'm curious as a mom now, do you have a different perspective on what motivated you? What options might have been open to you that you didn't think of? Or yeah, I'm just curious.

Speaker 4:
[54:20] Yeah, I think part of it was just being kind of socially isolated, even isolated as far as where we lived when I was really younger. I was very much inside my own head and not sharing a lot with other people. And sometimes when you're not getting feedback from other people, you just can go on a whole other tangent, I think. And I think, you know, as a parent, it's always been very important to me to raise both my kids, but especially my daughter, to really find things they're passionate about and pursue those things, whether it's surfing or animals or whatever she likes to do and really focus on that. And I've really been trying to keep her away from being conscientious about how she looks or being exposed to the type of media that would make her conscientious about the way she looks. And she's 11, and I think we've done a good job so far. I know the more difficult years are to come, but...

Speaker 6:
[55:05] Does she have a phone?

Speaker 4:
[55:07] No, they do have iPads, and they're able to play, like, Roblox for a few hours a day with their friends.

Speaker 6:
[55:12] Good for you. I think you deserve a freaking medal for her not having a phone.

Speaker 4:
[55:17] Thank you. Yeah, we're really trying to, like, keep the phone away as long as possible, for sure.

Speaker 6:
[55:21] There are bad things in there, Holly.

Speaker 4:
[55:23] Totally.

Speaker 6:
[55:23] There are really scary things in there. I wanted to ask about, you know, some of the other really awesome work that you do. You have The Playboy Murders, which you executive produce. You have Lethally Blonde. Obviously, you have your podcast. I'm curious about The Playboy Murders because I love true crime stuff. I love documentaries. And I'm fascinated with any documentary in particular that reveals a side of something that had a really shiny façade, right? Like I love The Victoria's Secret one. You know, like I'm into all of this. I'm curious, was this something that came to you? Was it something that you were part of creating? How did you get involved in that?

Speaker 4:
[56:15] It came to me. My agent told me. There's this production company, Lion TV. They have this show, The Playboy Murders. They want you to host it. And at first I was like, no, I've done too many Playboy things. I'm like up to my ears in it. And he's like, okay, well, I'm just going to send the deck over to you. You can take a look at it and decide if you want to do it or not. And I was really impressed with it because the initial six cases they picked, some of them I hadn't even heard of. And I thought I knew everything about everybody who went through the Playboy world. And I thought the cases were all so different and so intriguing. And I wanted to know more about it. And I was like, this is a show I would watch. So that's when I decided to get involved. And we've done two seasons so far. There's more episodes to come. And it's just been really rewarding. I love telling the stories and trying to get to know the victims and tell their stories and talk about them more as complete human beings rather than just like a pretty face who got murdered. It's just a really rewarding world to dive into. I love storytelling.

Speaker 6:
[57:07] It's really awesome. And also, you know, there's this thing called the Playboy Curse. And I wonder if you can, can you explain a little bit about that?

Speaker 4:
[57:18] Well, I think I've heard somewhere. I don't have the actual statistics, but I've heard multiple times that there's a higher rate of, you know, suicides and drug overdoses amongst playmates than the general population. I think part of that is anytime you're involved in what I call like a high stakes environment where there's a lot to be gained by doing certain things and a lot on the line, it can just lead to more extreme lifestyle choices, obviously, which can lead to some of these things. Obviously, that's not everybody's experience, but there's several high profile cases and several ones that weren't really talked about that we cover in the show too, just tragedies that have happened.

Speaker 6:
[57:56] And I think, and just to add to that, I think also, and this is true, not that people who pose for Playboy Magazine are sex workers, but for sex workers, there's also, anytime that you introduce power and sex and situations where vulnerable people can be, and by vulnerable, I mean a person who's providing, let's say, a service of a nature that relates to, again, power, control, manipulation, it does, it kind of raises the stakes for all sorts of behaviors, which is also not to say that people who go to sex workers are more likely to kill people, that's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that we're dealing with an environment where there's a lot of complexity to these kinds of relationships and power, and the abuse of power, which is often utilized in a sexual way. Sorry, this just got really depressing.

Speaker 4:
[58:58] No, absolutely. And that's what we cover in Lethally Blonde. Lethally Blonde is not Playboy specific, obviously, but involves people who are in the sex work industry or on the fringes of it. And they're really compelling stories.

Speaker 6:
[59:11] I'm curious the things that you do to sort of feel good, because I also would imagine that even though you express, it's very complicated and you experience depression and we're dealing with so much. On the emotional side, for the years that you were there, you also had a lot of things that I would imagine made life comfortable in terms of the things you didn't have to worry about or the things that were taken care of for you. I'm kind of curious now that you're in the real world and have been for many years. I'm curious, are you a spiritual person? Do you believe in God? Do you go to church? Do you like yoga? What are the things that you do that keep you feeling good?

Speaker 4:
[59:57] I am kind of spiritual, but it's the very unstructured spiritual. As far as feeling good, I mean, over the years, if you want to talk about depression, I've tried all kinds of antidepressants. I take Wellbutrin now. I love it. Mostly for me, it's like getting enough sleep, exercising, getting outside. I feel like I have a little bit of fatigue. I don't know if you'd call it autistic burnout or whatever, but I have to baby myself a little bit more as far as making sure. I get a lot of sleep and I get a lot of rest, and I am pacing myself a certain way. Sometimes I tend to bite off more than I can chew work-wise and parenting. So sometimes I feel a little disorganized that way. I'm always trying to scramble to make sure I'm awake enough and up to the task.

Speaker 6:
[60:47] Are you open to talking more about what spirituality means for you? Because obviously we talked to a lot of different people and some people, well, we're of the crystals variety and all sorts of things. But I'm curious for you, do you have a concept of something greater than yourself? Do you find it in nature? What's it like for you?

Speaker 4:
[61:07] Yeah, I mean, for me it's probably going to sound pretty hokey, but I feel like it's all about where I want to go in life and what my purpose is and what I feel like my calling is at any given moment and feeling like I made the choice to come here and incarnate and learn certain things. I'm always kind of looking back on my life and the choices I made and what did I learn from that? And what was the greater point of that? And what can I share with other people about that? I kind of tend to attach to spirituality. And I guess kind of like a storytelling way, just trying to find meaning in like the everyday and why am I making these decisions and how am I going to go on the best possible path listening to my intuition or you know, paying attention to, which is really basic cause and effect, but just paying attention to recognizing patterns I feel like feels even kind of spiritual to me.

Speaker 1:
[61:57] Have you had a recent moment of intuition that has guided you?

Speaker 4:
[62:01] I was just talking about this on my podcast the other day, it's kind of the feeling of having a calling and not really knowing what it is. And my cohost was saying she experiences the same thing. It's something almost, it can make you almost feel panicked or a little bit depressed, like you're not following it. And I feel like I'm always kind of asking myself, like I love doing the true crime shows. I love doing the podcast. I love doing what I'm doing, but like what's the bigger thing? And I'm still kind of trying to find out what that is. I feel a very strong pull toward it, but I haven't quite figured out what it is.

Speaker 1:
[62:36] I mean, you've already started to dismantle the patriarchy. So that's one piece as a larger calling. I mean, there's probably more.

Speaker 4:
[62:43] I feel like I might end up being some sort of free speech advocate. I feel like coming out with a book that wasn't popular with a lot of people and feeling the need to tell my truth. And also having been on the other end of it, when you come out on a reality show about dating an 80 year old man, a lot of people wanna say a lot of mean things on the internet that are hurtful, but you realize that's people's right to express their opinion. And I've had to deal with it on that side and deal with it on the side of me putting things out and doing a podcast. I'm sure you guys have to think about the legalities of things sometimes with certain interviews. And I feel kind of pulled toward that direction, but I'm not exactly sure what I meant to do there yet.

Speaker 6:
[63:23] Do you do vision boards?

Speaker 4:
[63:24] I do, yeah.

Speaker 6:
[63:25] How often do you do them?

Speaker 4:
[63:27] I try to do one every year and sometimes I'll switch them up throughout the year. I keep them in my gym where I work out, so I kind of look at them there. And I have like one of those red light therapy sleeping bags that I use sometimes. I'll sit in there and like look at the vision board.

Speaker 6:
[63:42] What's on your current vision board?

Speaker 4:
[63:44] All kinds of things. It's everything from like memories I want to make with my kids to career goals to... And then I have like a space for like surprises where I just kind of print out pictures that represent certain interests of mine because I want to like leave the door open. So it's all kinds of things.

Speaker 6:
[64:00] I'm sort of on the fence here with vision boards. Apparently, I'm the only human who had never done a vision board. Like I'm just a couple of years older than you. And but I also like I had kids young and I was in grad school. And I think that's when people were having a good time. When I was literally like, you know, growing humans in my body and cranking them out while also, you know, whatever being in school, I wasn't doing vision boards. The vision board was like the human and the thesis. But I'm just a little bit on the fence about them because like everybody's like, it's so good. And I'm like, I don't even, what am I going to do with it? Where am I going to hang it? And the person who told me to do it was like, this is so sad. You have this huge, beautiful house and you don't even know where to hang your vision board. I was like, that's right.

Speaker 4:
[64:42] No, I totally get that too because there's something about your goals. Like you don't necessarily know if you want to share them or you're ready to share them with anybody. So that's why I keep it in my room that nobody goes in.

Speaker 6:
[64:53] And I second guess everything. That I like, you know, I'm like, oh, I like this, but like, why do I like it? Is that a dumb reason to like it? So I'm bad at vision boards. That's really hashtag.

Speaker 4:
[65:03] Sometimes you can't find the perfect picture to represent what you want. And then I get superstitious about it. Like I don't want to put the wrong thing. But I've started using AI in my vision boards now.

Speaker 6:
[65:12] What?

Speaker 4:
[65:13] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[65:13] Holly, what do you mean?

Speaker 4:
[65:15] Well, you know, sometimes if you wanted say like a vampire wedding and you couldn't find a picture of a vampire wedding, you get AI to make it. Because I wouldn't want to find a picture of the wrong thing. And that's just how superstitious I get. I don't want to call in the wrong things.

Speaker 6:
[65:28] Your vision board is artificial. It's artificially intelligent, but it's artificial.

Speaker 1:
[65:37] Her next career is vision board consultant.

Speaker 4:
[65:39] Yes.

Speaker 6:
[65:39] I'm a vision board critic. Sorry.

Speaker 1:
[65:44] Mayim is kind of crapping on vision boards, but she had to make one. She was quote unquote forced or encouraged to make one recently. She wouldn't show it to me.

Speaker 6:
[65:54] No.

Speaker 1:
[65:54] I've been told there's a dog on it.

Speaker 4:
[65:56] That's cute. I love that.

Speaker 6:
[65:58] I'm a cat person.

Speaker 1:
[66:01] So she's betraying her kind by including it.

Speaker 6:
[66:04] I mean, the cats are not allowed to look at the vision board. You've obviously been through a very specific kind of relationship that most humans do not get to experience or work through. And I think that there's so many ways that we could look for differences between your life and any of our listeners, or my life, or Valerie's life, or any of us, right? But I've been really comforted by the things that feel similar, like when you talk about what it's like to be in a relationship with someone whose solution to keeping you is to love bomb, right? Or those things, everybody experiences that or everybody has the opportunity, right? To experience that even if you're not in the specific situation that you were in. You know, now that you've sort of seen, you know, the other side of being in a relationship that didn't feel healthy for you, I wonder what are sort of the flags that you look for or that you would tell your kids to look out for, you know, when they start dating? What are the things that indicate it may not be healthy and maybe you're fooling yourself, you know, in saying that you're okay when you're not?

Speaker 4:
[67:16] I think anytime the partner wants to move too fast or they try to put any kind of restriction on you, and it happens so quickly, it happens usually within the first six months, which to me sounds crazy as a 45-year-old. I'm like six months you just met the person, but when you're 20, you feel like you're dating somebody for a month and you feel like you're really getting into it. So if somebody is like insisting that you move in with them before you're ready, or they have anything to say about keeping your job or quitting your job or should you switch your job or anything like that, or just wanting to move way too quickly within the first six months, like love bombing feels good. Like we all want to be courted and we all want to be complimented and we all want that person who falls in love with us. But when somebody wants to move really quickly and wants to put any kind of limitation on what you're already doing or wants to try and undermine what you're already doing and try and like change you and mold you in a different way, like those are red flags you shouldn't ignore.

Speaker 6:
[68:12] I'm just getting caught up on this for myself because I'm also like, it's very hard. It's hard at any age, but especially when you're young, you know, like you said, love bombing feels good, right? Like you're literally being told all the things that you want to hear, not just from this person, but it's all the things that you've always wanted to hear from any person. But I guess the idea would be the maturity, right? We have to try and bring in to say, this doesn't have to be the only way to maintain this connection.

Speaker 4:
[68:46] Totally. And just pacing the relationship and not moving too fast and not giving up your independence and then you look around and you're like, damn, I really have to make it work because I don't have an income now or I'm not doing this or I'm not doing that or I gave up this and then you feel so invested.

Speaker 1:
[68:59] And just for anyone who is following along and they're like, what's love bombing again?

Speaker 4:
[69:04] Yeah, love bombing is when some, well, I wrestle with the term a little bit because I think it's become so over-popularized that now I see like people make TikToks and they're like alarmed if somebody's just being a gentleman.

Speaker 6:
[69:15] You know what I mean?

Speaker 4:
[69:16] But it's when somebody like all of a sudden off the bat, they're hyping you up so much, they're in love with you, they want to spend the rest of their lives together, like come move in with me, give up your job, I'm going to do this for you, I'm going to do that for you, just at a very fast moving pace. You know, just just look out. I think you know it's love bombing when you also start to notice that they want you to alter your own life in ways that you might not be ready to. I think that's when it really gets problematic. Because I don't want anybody to feel bad about if they're dating somebody and that person's being great to them and sending them flowers, you know?

Speaker 6:
[69:51] Yeah, the kind of the clinical kind of difference between let's say someone, also like, sometimes people just get overexcited about, you know, a new relationship. But the notion of love bombing is this kind of like excessive flattery and praise, over communication early and like too early communication of wishes to be together, move in together, we're meant to be together, like, you know, our souls were together in other lifetimes. Also like unneeded or unwanted gifts or, you know, but the those things alone is not necessarily love bombing, but those things for the purpose of manipulation to get someone to behave differently, do things for them. That's sort of the it's a manipulative tool. It doesn't just kind of stand on its own. So there's usually something conditional about it is kind of what we're talking about. You know, Jonathan, the way you and I interact just on the daily.

Speaker 1:
[70:49] She wants me all to herself. I'm not allowed to have any other friends but her.

Speaker 6:
[70:57] Holly, it's been really so much fun to talk to you. You know, I really I love so many aspects of what your life is like now and sort of the way that you've, you know, found a balance between, you know, keeping a foot in this world that was such a part of you, but also doing, you know, so many things that are yours. And we wish you only good things. Do you want to tell people where they can find Lethally Blonde and Playboy Murders and your podcast?

Speaker 4:
[71:26] Yes, Lethally Blonde and The Playboy Murders are on Investigation Discovery. You can stream them on Max or Hulu. And Girls Next Level, our podcast, is you can find it anywhere you find podcasts.

Speaker 6:
[71:37] Amazing. And if you want a good read, I have to say Down the Rabbit Hole is a really good read. So I just wanted to mention that as well.

Speaker 4:
[71:43] Thank you. I appreciate that so much.

Speaker 6:
[71:44] And you also, you wrote a second memoir, correct?

Speaker 4:
[71:47] I did. It's called The Vegas Diaries. It's about my time in Vegas when I was doing a show and I was single and just what I learned dating and everything like that.

Speaker 6:
[71:56] So it's amazing. Do you like writing? Is that an outlet for you that you like?

Speaker 4:
[72:00] I really do. I wish I could be inspired to do something, do another thing, maybe another story's coming. I don't know yet, but I really enjoyed doing the first two.

Speaker 6:
[72:11] Thank you. It's so nice talking to you.

Speaker 4:
[72:12] You too. It's so nice to meet you guys.

Speaker 6:
[72:15] It is time for Rapid Fire Breakdown Style with Holly Madison. What was your mother right about?

Speaker 4:
[72:23] Everything that I needed to do my homework, first of all. Like I used to want to like rip through things so fast. And she was always like, take your time, do it right. And she was right about that.

Speaker 6:
[72:32] What was your father right about?

Speaker 4:
[72:35] He was right about a work ethic. He was always a very, very hard worker. And I look up to that.

Speaker 6:
[72:42] Location that promotes your best mental health?

Speaker 4:
[72:45] Las Vegas or anywhere sunny.

Speaker 6:
[72:48] Okay, I've never heard someone say that Las Vegas promotes their best mental health. I find it such a crazy place. It makes me sad.

Speaker 4:
[72:56] It really is, but it's a really nice place to live. Like I always say, living here, it feels like a small town, but there's anything you could want to do in a big city really.

Speaker 6:
[73:04] But you don't live like on this trip.

Speaker 4:
[73:07] No, I live pretty close, but it's like a normal neighborhood. I'm looking out onto my grassy backyard.

Speaker 6:
[73:13] It's just like normal people live in Vegas and I just don't think about it.

Speaker 4:
[73:16] It's just like a really heavenly corner and I love it.

Speaker 6:
[73:17] Amazing. Do you have a mantra or a saying that you like?

Speaker 4:
[73:22] God, I probably do and it's probably escaping me right now. I need to think of an official one. I think follow my intuition is a big one these days.

Speaker 6:
[73:31] Who's been your best spiritual teacher?

Speaker 4:
[73:34] I don't know if I have one. A lot of YouTube videos, honestly.

Speaker 6:
[73:38] Do you have one moment of your best intuition?

Speaker 4:
[73:43] You know, I don't know if it was the best intuition because it led me down this crazy path. But another part of my spirituality is I don't believe any of us come here to have these perfect unblemished lives. I think we come here to learn certain things.

Speaker 6:
[73:55] Speak for yourself, Holly. Speak for yourself.

Speaker 4:
[73:57] You know, when I was in college and was wanting to kind of get into the world of like entertainment and glamour modeling and I wanted to go to the playboy parties and stuff before I was invited, I was walking down Melrose and I had this weird intuition that I needed to get this guy's attention, this random guy who had his back to me. And I didn't do anything specifically to get his attention except switch my vibe or something. I just kind of made the intention of like, I want to get his attention. And I kid you not, he whips around to me at that moment and was like, I want to photograph you. And this was back in the day. This was like the early 2000s where like you didn't have an iPhone. You didn't have retouching apps. You couldn't do it yourself. Like getting good pictures cost money. Have to explain that to the young folks out there. And he wanted to photograph me. So he like got my makeup done. He did all these photos and stuff. And those are the photos I sent in to Hawaiian Tropic, trying to get a job. And then I got the job and then I got invited to the Playboy. So it kind of like led me to everything, which is really weird.

Speaker 6:
[74:56] Okay, hold on. I need you to define something because I need to learn how to do this. How do you, how do I switch my vibe?

Speaker 4:
[75:02] I don't even know how I did it.

Speaker 6:
[75:04] Well, you did it, Holly.

Speaker 4:
[75:06] Yeah, I have this intuition that seemed like it fell from the sky. Like you need to get that guy's attention. So I don't know. I just like stood up a little straighter. I focused my attention on him and he turned right around. It was the weirdest experience of my life.

Speaker 6:
[75:20] I'm going to try that with everyone now.

Speaker 4:
[75:22] Yes.

Speaker 6:
[75:24] Who are you most competitive with?

Speaker 4:
[75:27] Myself.

Speaker 6:
[75:28] Last question. What do you know to be true?

Speaker 4:
[75:32] That I'm happy right now and I like that.

Speaker 1:
[75:39] What did people get kicked out of the mansion for?

Speaker 6:
[75:42] Well, I mean, first of all, like I think that this stuff likely always went on in one way or another. But what's different from the 1950s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, is we have a broader understanding now of I think, power, sexual roles, women's empowerment. It's different and everything is now recordable and there are real-life consequences for losing favor in that environment, so the stakes are so much higher. Yeah, I think that also the power dynamic between the women, I think might even be more significant now because of that sense of autonomy, which we want people to have in terms of who can post what and where you exist on TV and in the magazine, I think there's a lot more jockeying. Women are social creatures, and if you put us in a situation where there's an opportunity for stratification of power, yeah, women are of course going to act that out.

Speaker 1:
[76:58] Just think about the stress of my stuff could be packed up at any moment and I'm out of there and the place I live and I'm calling home at that time.

Speaker 6:
[77:08] Yeah, I think part of that is also like that is the arrangement. When you're brought into that situation as one of many partners for an 80-year-old man who runs a corporation, there's a certain amount of instability, I think, that you would probably be wary of anyway.

Speaker 1:
[77:35] Every time I log into this podcast, I just think someone else is going to be in my chair, and have my microphone, and I'm never going to know when.

Speaker 6:
[77:45] You feel just like a Playboy Bunny, who's not the number one favorite girl.

Speaker 1:
[77:50] Look, if I try really hard, I'll become your number one podcasting partner. Can get a new Canadian anytime you want.

Speaker 6:
[78:01] Yep.

Speaker 1:
[78:03] Maybe he'll sing you the log driving song.

Speaker 6:
[78:06] Oh, you didn't want to sing in front of our new friends.

Speaker 1:
[78:09] I don't know the lyrics off the top of my head. I have to go look it up. You give me one listen and I'll come back with the log driver song. You got to learn to step lightly.

Speaker 6:
[78:20] Oh, it's coming. I bet Holly's going to look it up. She's going to look it up. When I said, why did your family move to Alaska? Well, of course, because my father was in timber.

Speaker 1:
[78:33] Oh, and the more you get promoted in timber, the further remote you go.

Speaker 6:
[78:38] That is the least Jewish answer to that question. Why did your family move you there? Anyone could give because my father was in lumber.

Speaker 1:
[78:46] The other thing we didn't ask her is like, what was she like as a child? She was living in Alaska. Was she like a nature girl out fishing and hunting and deep in the woods? She clearly didn't have television or doctors. She went into glam, but maybe she was a super outdoorsy type who loved being with... We don't know what she was like.

Speaker 6:
[79:11] Okay, well I'm looking at the pictures in her book. And there's a picture of her in boots in the water. It looks rocky. Looks like a lot of places in Canada, to be honest.

Speaker 1:
[79:20] She was probably fishing.

Speaker 6:
[79:21] And then here's the story. At 12 she was a brunette, by 15 cheerleading as a blonde. That's when it all changed.

Speaker 1:
[79:29] You don't go from Alaska. Maybe I'm over generalizing.

Speaker 6:
[79:33] I think you're over romanticizing Alaska, Mr. Toronto.

Speaker 1:
[79:37] The American wilderness frontier. I'm catching fish with your bare hands and cooking them over an open fire.

Speaker 6:
[79:43] You've been reading too much Playboy. That's what's going on. I think I need to catch up on my Playboy Murders True Crime. I've been, you know what? I've been hesitant to watch it because I don't like the picture that they use for the thumbnail and that's not really fair. So I think I'm going to give it a shot.

Speaker 1:
[80:02] You don't judge a documentary by the thumbnail, even though Netflix spends a lot of money trying to figure out how to hook you.

Speaker 6:
[80:11] Well, these are on investigation discovery, so I will head over there. All right. Please make sure to subscribe, like us, comment, tell us things you want to see, we want to know. We want to be part of your life, just like you're part of ours.

Speaker 1:
[80:25] Feel free to love bomb us, it's okay. Post a comment, at Bialik Breakdown on Instagram.

Speaker 6:
[80:30] From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time.