transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:05] It was the man on a mission.

Speaker 2:
[00:07] It was founders that chose good quests that pushed civilization forward. And all of them, all of them, were heretics before they were celebrated as heroes.

Speaker 3:
[00:18] Last September, Palantir's Chief Technology Officer, Shamsankar, spoke at what's known as NATCON, the National Conservatism Conference. There were speakers from the Trump administration, as well as people like Christian nationalist pastor, Doug Wilson, and people like Sankar, tech people. Sankar gave his speech, but he also got into it with a fellow guest, Jeffrey Miller, the evolutionary psychologist. It was after a panel about AI.

Speaker 4:
[00:47] And basically, Miller was telling Sankar that the AI industry is globalist, secular, liberal, feminized, transhumanists.

Speaker 3:
[01:00] That's Kiera Butler, a national correspondent at Mother Jones.

Speaker 4:
[01:04] He said, they explicitly want mass unemployment. They plan for UBI-based communism. They view the human species as a biological bootloader for artificial superintelligence. So these were very strong words that Miller was using to characterize AI.

Speaker 3:
[01:28] And this tension ran through the conference.

Speaker 4:
[01:31] On the one side, you had this camp of people who were more of like the traditional religious fundamentalist Christians who saw AI as being highly suspect, perhaps even dangerous, maybe even a demon or the Antichrist. And on the other, you had this Silicon Valley-adjacent kind of techno-optimist group of people who saw AI not only as okay, but as a moral imperative.

Speaker 3:
[02:07] Two groups who have put their faith in Trump, but are now regarding each other with suspicion.

Speaker 4:
[02:13] This is a divide within the MAGA coalition that is only getting wider. This divide between Christians who believe that technology is something to be feared. And if not feared, then at least, you know, highly regulated. And those that believe that technology and AI are the only path forward and the only way to promote human flourishing.

Speaker 3:
[02:40] Today on the show, the great MAGA schism over AI. I'm Lizzie O'Leary, and you're listening to What Next TBD, a show about technology, power, and how the future will be determined. Stick around. I want to dig into your reporting a little bit and articulate these two positions, where they come from. Let's take the Silicon Valley folks first. Who are the leaders in Silicon Valley who are pushing this vision of artificial intelligence as holy and as a moral imperative?

Speaker 4:
[03:32] So, you know, I think probably the most famous person who's doing this is Peter Thiel. Obviously, he has been advocating for technology for a long time, and he is a very strong voice in the Silicon Valley Christian community. There's this kind of groundswell of Christianity in Silicon Valley, and a lot of that is because Peter Thiel has talked a lot about this. I think probably a lot of your listeners know that last year, Peter Thiel was heavily involved in this. Peter Thiel hosted a series of talks about the Antichrist, and his vision is that the Antichrist is somebody who attempts to stall progress, who attempts to halt technological innovation.

Speaker 1:
[04:32] I think there is a lot in this runaway science technology that's pushing us towards something like Armageddon, and then there is the natural pushback on this, is we will avoid Armageddon by having a one world state that has real teeth, real power, and the biblical term for that is the Antichrist.

Speaker 4:
[05:01] So, he is a big force in the space for sure. There's also Trey Stevens of Anderil. So, he and his wife founded this Christian organization called Act 17 Collective. And really, this is an organization that's dedicated to promoting Christianity in the tech space. They actually were a host of the Peter Thiel Antichrist lectures. They've also, they've done a bunch of other stuff including a very long talk that Trey Stevens delivered about God and technology where he talked about the importance of what he called choosing good quests.

Speaker 2:
[05:40] You know, I'm like literally an arms dealer. It's like, I don't think all of you should be arms dealers, but like that's a pretty unique calling. And so, I think you have to like lean into your gifts and figure out what that quest is that you're supposed to be on.

Speaker 4:
[05:57] This was a way that Christians could make a lot of money and, you know, be in this pro-tech space and also feel good about being good Christians. Another character that I'll mention is Katherine Boyle. She is a partner at Andreessen Horowitz, and she has given, she's a Catholic, and she's very vocal about her Catholic faith. She's on on X all the time. She goes on a lot of podcasts. She writes op-eds, often for the free press. And she has made the argument that technology and AI in particular can be a boon to domestic life. You know, she's saying that AI can help take the drudgery out of the holy calling of women to be at home raising their families. So this is her kind of attempt to give AI a very kind of almost like a tradwife makeover.

Speaker 3:
[06:58] That AI could like make my grocery list and also help me have a side business and do all those things while I'm doing school pickup.

Speaker 4:
[07:06] Exactly. Or while you are in fact homeschooling.

Speaker 3:
[07:09] You know, there's a thing that you wrote about in your piece when you mentioned Trey Stevens and this lecture, God and Technology. And he argues, and I'm going to quote this here, what our soul deeply longs for is progress in building a better future. And I don't think that's controversial. I think that's what everybody's soul longs for, right? Like some kind of contribution to the life of the world, whether that is through your children or your job or your works or your faith or what have you. And what I think is so interesting is the marriage of that universal human desire with something that is technologically driven. I wonder how the leaders in this space articulate that marriage of kind of deep human need for progress, however you define it, and building, executing, and promoting a product.

Speaker 4:
[08:07] Yeah, and I mean, it's a really good question, because when you look at what Trey Stephens is actually doing, right? He is running Anderil, which is this company that is building drones for warfare. You know, these are autonomous weapons that he's building. So, you know, this, I think, you know, I mentioned this in my piece, but it's not necessarily an intuitive fit, right? The idea of choosing a good quest, choosing a pro-human quest, and essentially building drones like for robot wars. But his argument is that with greater precision, you know, drones can kill fewer people and, you know, be more effective and, you know, help America prevail. And, you know, this is something else that he considers to be a kind of a godly, a good quest, a godly quest.

Speaker 3:
[09:02] One of the things I find very interesting about some of the argument here is that AI will create immense wealth for everyone. Potentially, you know, creating universal basic income. That is something that has been talked about in Silicon Valley before. But I do find that at odds with some teachings of traditional Christianity, right? Like I think if you were to go to Sunday school, create great wealth, that is not what they tell you. How do they square that part?

Speaker 4:
[09:36] Yeah, I mean, you know, this is like one of the central tensions of Silicon Valley, right? And I think, you know, one phrase that people use is effective altruism. This idea that you should make as much money as you possibly can in order to do all the good that you can.

Speaker 3:
[09:56] Very famously associated with Sam Backman Fried, among others.

Speaker 4:
[09:59] Correct. Yes, that's right. And, you know, I think that that idea that that that there is an inherent good in accumulating wealth so that you can then, you know, do more good with your wealth, that is driving a lot of this. In practice, how how that actually plays out, like, are we seeing all of this incredible wealth solve all of our problems? I, you know, I think that that's an open question. But I think that messaging, it's almost like a different form of the prosperity gospel, right? This idea that Christians, you know, that you can ask God for, you know, whatever you want, and God will provide, and that, you know, being a good Christian will reap material benefits. This is sort of a different, it's almost a spin on that. And, you know, there's a long tradition of that in Christianity, and it's also a very, I would say, controversial, or, you know, fringe part of Christianity. I don't think that you're gonna see, you know, a lot of mainstream Christians teaching that, you know, the accumulation of wealth is a good in and of itself, and being a good human, and being like a godly human.

Speaker 3:
[11:23] One thing that I think is worth noting is that a lot of these people in Silicon Valley are very close to, particularly the Vice President, JD Vance, and to the administration. How much does their proximity to political power buoy their message beyond Silicon Valley?

Speaker 4:
[11:42] Well, that's an interesting thing. I mean, you know, there's polling right now that suggests that Christians are increasingly sceptical of AI. And that, you know, that suggests to me that this message of the ultra elite in Silicon Valley saying that, you know, AI is godly, saying that AI can be part of their Christian faith, that this is not necessarily landing, you know, that you see that what we're seeing increasingly is people who are concerned about the idea of AI taking over their jobs and that they don't see AI as improving their lives. They see it as, I guess, detracting from their success, from their, you know, ability to take care of their families, from their ability to be in community. So I think, you know, that that divide could end up being a problem, certainly for Vance's presumed presidential aspirations, but perhaps also even in the midterms.

Speaker 3:
[12:44] Yeah, I mean, in that moment at the National Conservatism Conference, there's reporting about kind of the strain that was coming from the MAGA populists who were very skeptical of the tech-oriented right. How would you describe the sort of, for lack of a better phrase, conservative Christian view on AI?

Speaker 4:
[13:10] When I was writing this piece, I really wanted to articulate that exact question, the answer to that question. I wanted to give readers an idea of what conservative Christians believe about AI. And the writer that I thought articulated this the best is this guy, Paul Kingsnorth. He is an interesting person. He's a former environmental activist, a very lefty person who converted to orthodox Christianity and has... Not that long ago. Not that long ago. No, he's a relatively recent convert. And he's sort of reoriented his whole worldview around his skepticism of what he calls the machine. The machine is technology. And he's very skeptical of all of it. If you listen to the people in Silicon Valley and the language that they use, not all of them, obviously, but a lot of them, they use very, very openly theological language to talk about what they're doing.

Speaker 3:
[14:09] And again, a lot of this is quoted in the book.

Speaker 4:
[14:10] These people say that when they're talking about AI, that they are building God, that they are making God. When Ray Kurzweil from Google, the great prophet of the singularity was asked, does God exist?

Speaker 1:
[14:20] He said, not yet.

Speaker 3:
[14:22] So this is the vision that they have.

Speaker 1:
[14:25] There's a spiritual darkness to it, which everyone can feel.

Speaker 4:
[14:29] And it's one reason why people feel so discomforted because it's not just about, oh, I'm using my phone a bit too much, I should probably put it down. There is something that feels like we're being unmade going on. He, in his book, he describes, like progressive leftism as compatible with the machine because they're both, and he writes, suspicious of the past, impatient with borders and boundaries, and hostile to religion. He says that both progressive values and the machine are in pursuit of a global utopia where the world will live as one. This is this idea that the machine is compatible with communism.

Speaker 3:
[15:15] I think you said Lenin and Lenin.

Speaker 4:
[15:17] Yes, Lenin, Lenin and Lenon.

Speaker 3:
[15:20] Yes, Vlad and John. Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[15:22] Right. Yes. And, you know, he has these very kind of out there ways of connecting the machine and culture wars. Like, he sort of describes the struggle for transgender acceptance as like a step on the path toward permanently abandoning our bodies. So he writes, a young generation of hyperurbanized, always on young people, increasingly divorced from nature and growing up in a psychologized, inward looking anti-culture is being led toward the conclusion that biology is a problem to be overcome. So he sort of thinks that, like, somehow the transgender movement is indicative of this lefty desire to completely abandon our bodies and, you know, upload our consciousness into the machine.

Speaker 3:
[16:22] When we come back, the Pope, the Vice President, and whatever that AI Jesus image was. There is a parallel, I think, there. Go with me on this. If you look at, say, the attorneys general from red states who are suing tech companies, Roblox, Metta, other companies, and really kind of looking at tech as a potential evil. And it's a really fascinating coalition of people because there seem to be people who are looking at it from a sort of child safety perspective and some of that is about the traditional idea of the family. And then others who are looking at it as a sort of like, oh, it's godless. And I guess I wonder, how strong do you think the backlash to tech among Christian conservatives is?

Speaker 4:
[17:24] Well, I mean, Christian conservatives are not a monolith, right? Like you have your Paul Kings Norths who are like, you know, sitting in their house in rural Western Ireland without owning a cell phone and, you know, railing against like the transgender, I don't know, agenda of technologists or something. And then you have, you know, folks who are just trying to figure out how to get their kids not to play Roblox all day or be, you know, approached by predators on Roblox. You know, this is, these are questions that all of us are wrestling with to some extent. And I think, you know, the faction of conservative Christians who truly believes that technology as a whole is a demon or the antichrist, that's probably not the majority.

Speaker 3:
[18:25] I think this is particularly interesting. Like if we sort of try to separate out what this might mean in the future. And I recognize that I'm talking a little bit about looking into a Christian ball. But if you take some of the rhetoric from Silicon Valley about, you know, the stakes involved in AI, is that what is driving the backlash from some conservative Christians who are projecting to it? Or are we just seeing, you know, a coalition that happened to come together to support President Trump actually taking a better look at one another and thinking like, hmm, maybe you and I have different goals here?

Speaker 4:
[19:08] I think probably it's a little from column A, a little from column B. You know, more broadly on the latter, I think that's something that's happening across so many different issues. The MAGA coalition right now, you know, technology and AI, that's one issue, but we're seeing so many, so many fishers begin to grow. You know, we're seeing fishers over Israel. We're seeing fishers over immigration. This is a coalition that did, they, you know, they came together. And, you know, especially when you're talking about conservative Christians, you know, you had evangelicals and Catholics. This is something that I wrote about in another piece, that conservatives and Catholics coming together to support President Trump and even before President Trump, you know, over the issues of abortion and then gay marriage. And, you know, just like you said, this is a group that they're now taking a hard look at each other and figuring out that, you know, maybe they didn't have as much in common or maybe they no longer have more in common than they have, you know, than they have different opinions on.

Speaker 3:
[20:17] I think there are sort of two instances that really illustrate that. One is the president posting this like AI image of himself as Jesus, though he says it was not as Jesus, only to take it down after starting to hear, you know, a lot of displeasure from his supporters. And then you also have the president and the pope and JD Vance in open conflict. Like I keep making the joke that my long departed Catholic grandmother would just like spontaneously combust if she were around to witness any of this. But I feel like this must be a really big deal if you were a key part of this coalition. And now you're presented with all of these different conflicting narratives about some of the most important teachings of the church.

Speaker 4:
[21:15] Yeah, and I think, you know, it's so interesting because today, politics, or partisan politics in particular are so much a part of our identities, right? They're a part of the story that we tell ourselves about ourselves in a way that, you know, a generation ago it wasn't. And a generation ago, it probably was the case that, you know, your religion was much more, a much stronger identity marker than politics. And to have those two huge pieces of identity now in conflict, you know, I think is something that is, it is relatively new. And the idea that, you know, your church might be saying one thing, and your political party might be saying another, you know, I think that is creating a lot of tension.

Speaker 3:
[22:07] It seems pretty clear to me that this administration is not going to slow its role on AI any time soon. And I wonder what that policy choice does with religious voters.

Speaker 4:
[22:24] Yeah, I mean, I think it remains to be seen, you know, this is again, no crystal ball, but my guess is that if we're seeing, you know, people's jobs being taken away because they've been replaced by AI, that's not going to play well. It doesn't matter how much you try to give AI a Christian makeover. It doesn't matter how much, you know, these billionaires in Silicon Valley are telling you that AI is, you know, a tool for good and godly if you're not able to put food on the table for your family. So, you know, I do see that as being a potential conflict for a lot of voters.

Speaker 3:
[23:05] I think the question has always been and probably will continue to be for Trump voters. If you are not constantly thinking about religion, right? Let's say you're not deeply Catholic, but this is culturally important to you. Has this risen to a point where you can no longer yada yada pass the parts you don't agree with? Where, like, the poll of Trump isn't strong enough to go past the questions about AI and the questions about God? Or is it still so much a part of identity now that people are willing to say, no, I'm still with my guy?

Speaker 4:
[23:43] Yeah, it's really interesting. And I mean, again, you know, Christians are not a monolith, right? And like, just take Catholics, for example, you know, you have, on the one end, you have, like these social justice, like, you know, liberation theology Catholics, whose values are very much in line with the political left. And then on way on the other end of the spectrum, you have like Candace Owens, and, you know, you have JD Vance, who's probably more toward the right, although certainly not as far as Candace Owens. But it might, you know, what we might see in addition to political realignment is realignment within these religions. And, you know, same kind of thing with Protestants. Like, you know, on the one hand, you have these kind of like mega church evangelicals in the style of, you know, Paula White Cane, this kind of charismatic movement. And then you have these very hardline reformed guys, these theobros who follow, you know, a Christian nationalist pastor in Idaho. You might see a realignment of folks along those lines as well.

Speaker 3:
[24:57] Kiera Butler, thank you so much for coming on and talking with me.

Speaker 4:
[25:00] Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 3:
[25:04] Kiera Butler is a national correspondent for Mother Jones. And that is it for our show today. What Next TBD is produced by Evan Campbell and Patrick Fort. Our show is edited by Paige Osburn, who is also the senior supervising producer for What Next and What Next TBD. Mia Lobel is the executive producer of audio here at Slate, and TBD is part of the larger What Next family. We will be back on Sunday with another episode. I'm Lizzie O'Leary. Thanks for listening.