transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] This spring at Hauser and Worth in New York, Visit Life with P. It's an exhibition that illuminates an intimate and rarely observed facet of Philip Guston's art. While this groundbreaking 20th century master is best known for raw painterly explorations of sociopolitical power and sobering inspections of human nature, this exhibition showcases Guston's more intimate paintings and works on paper in which the artist ruminates in his marriage to poet Musa McKim and their lives together in Woodstock. Life with P coincides with the release of a new book from Howser and Worth Publishers by the same name, an illustrated compilation of Musa McKim's previously unpublished journals of her life with the artist from 1966 to 1976 contextualized by the couple's daughter, Musa Mayer. Visit howserworth.com for more information. I personally can't wait to see this one. I am interested on any rumination on marriage. Life with P is on view at 443 West 18th Street in New York, now through July 10th. Anyone who knows me knows I am a big believer in therapy, but it's not always so easy to access. Sometimes insurance doesn't cover it, and even when it does, finding a therapist who takes your insurance can be tricky. RULA changes that completely. They work with over 100 insurance plans, making the average copay just $15 per person. It's a more realistic way to access therapy. And instead of leaving you to figure it out alone, RULA gives you a curated list of licensed therapists who are in network and aligned with your specific needs. They've also eliminated the usual friction. No wait lists, no complicated process. You can find someone accepting new patients and book quickly. And RULA continues to support you along your journey, helping ensure your care is actually effective. Thousands of people are already using RULA to get affordable, high quality therapy that's actually covered by insurance. Visit rula.com/fashion to get started. After you sign up, you'll be asked how you heard about them. Please support our show and let them know we cite you. That's rula.com/fashion. You deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budget. Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's Fashion and Beauty Memo Line Sheet. Today with me on the show is designer Sander Lak. We're talking about everything from the European fashion system to the power of color. Up top, Dimepiece's Brynn Wallner joins me from Geneva with a report on Watches and Wonders. Let's go. Before we get going, I wanted to remind you that if you like this podcast, you'll definitely love Puck where I send an email called Line Sheet. If you're a fashion person, you get that reference. It's an original look at what's really going on inside the fashion and beauty industries. Line Sheet is scoopy, analytical and above all fun. Along with me, a subscription to Puck gained you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment, media, sports, politics, finance, the art world and much more. If you're interested, listeners of Fashion People get a discount. Just go to puck.news slash fashion people to join Puck or start a free trial. Happy Friday, everyone. Keeping this very short because it's a long one, but I wanted to note that Kelsey Keith, Tuesday's guest, requested that you all or suggested that you all check out the Lella and Massimo Vignelli exhibit at the Triennale in Milan. I also went to the Andrea Bronzi by Toyo Ito exhibit, which was like really amazing. You should go to both. Hopefully, I think I actually pronounced all of that correctly. Who knows? And you can read my report from Salone in Friday's Line Sheet. Anyway, I had a great time in Milan. It was nice to see some of you. And I'm looking forward to going back in June for a couple of days. And I forgot to mention our amazing dinner with Shotmai. Thank you, Tiffany, the CEO of Shotmai, who was amazing and we just had it in the whole team. It was really, really fun. We had it at this restaurant called Sandy. Food was so good. It was the best wine. It was every, all three wines were wines that I would drink, and I can go to a restaurant and not like any of the wine. It was fun. But it's a beautiful restaurant. Thank you to everyone involved. Thank you to the team at Puck, the team at PS. Obviously, again, thank you to the team at Shotmai and the Sandy family, the family that owns that restaurant. It's a husband and wife. It was just really beautiful. It was a perfect night, and everybody who came out, I love you all. It was so nice.

Speaker 2:
[05:03] I had a great time.

Speaker 1:
[05:05] Anyway, we're really going to start now. Brynn Wallner, welcome back to Fashion People.

Speaker 2:
[05:12] It's an honor to be here, Lauren.

Speaker 1:
[05:15] Where are you calling in from?

Speaker 2:
[05:18] I'm still in Switzerland.

Speaker 1:
[05:20] Fabulous. How long are you going to be there for?

Speaker 2:
[05:22] I leave tomorrow, back to New York. This is my fifth year at Watches and Wonders, the Watch World's largest annual trade show.

Speaker 1:
[05:34] What did it used to be called? Wasn't it just like the name of a company?

Speaker 2:
[05:39] Well, there was SIHH, the Salon International Lagerie, and there was also Baselworld, and those two are now defunct, and then they came back bigger than ever, all forces combined for Watches and Wonders.

Speaker 1:
[05:56] We love to see it really briefly before we get into the trends. What is the weather like there? Because I'm in Milan for Salone. We're recording this, this is gonna run on Friday morning. We're recording this on Tuesday afternoon. And the weather here has just been so nice. It's like kind of hot. And I love Switzerland in the summer because it's still like 65 degrees, but beautiful.

Speaker 2:
[06:17] Well, I love talking about the weather. Hot take.

Speaker 3:
[06:22] Il fait très beau aujourd'hui.

Speaker 2:
[06:24] I just swam in the lake.

Speaker 1:
[06:28] Yeah. Wow.

Speaker 2:
[06:29] It's perfect. I'm real Swiss miss over here.

Speaker 1:
[06:33] Oh my God. You are Swiss miss.

Speaker 4:
[06:35] I love it.

Speaker 1:
[06:36] So tell me what you saw this year. What's the big news? I was just at an Hermes dinner last night and Michael Carl was wearing a new watch that they I believe presented this week that I will never remember the name. Sorry, Michael. This is like the second week in a row he's appeared on Fashion People, even though he actually refuses to actually appear on Fashion People. But what did you see?

Speaker 2:
[06:58] What was cool?

Speaker 1:
[06:59] What was interesting?

Speaker 2:
[07:01] Yeah. Well, this was the largest Watches and Wonders so far. All the numbers are up attendance wise on the press and the public days. So it felt really full. There was a buzzing kind of energy. All the CEOs and everybody said that the vibe was more relaxed, which I felt that way and I thought it was just me being a fifth year veteran, but apparently people were feeling good. Despite it being a year since Liberation Day, which last year, the first day of Watches and Wonders, that's when Trump announced the 39 percent tariffs against the Swiss watch industry.

Speaker 1:
[07:39] Wait, wait. It's only been a year since Liberation Day.

Speaker 2:
[07:43] Yeah. Feel old yet?

Speaker 1:
[07:46] That's shocking. I thought that was like four years ago.

Speaker 2:
[07:50] No, honestly, it's been like dog years.

Speaker 1:
[07:52] Oh my God.

Speaker 2:
[07:54] It's been really up and down for the Swiss watch industry.

Speaker 1:
[07:57] That's rough.

Speaker 2:
[07:59] Yeah. But now, I don't know what it's at, 15 percent since late 2025. The brands are just trying to manage how they're pricing everything because it's like, every day something changes and also the US dollar value changes all the time. When the brands present their novelties, which is their word for the new product, it's always the pricing and CHF because nobody can keep up with what the US dollar is. It's always a whiplash googling the conversion rate because something will be $8,000 in Swiss francs and then it will be $11,000 in USD. It's a lot of expensive watches. Lots of the brands are celebrating anniversary years, which I feel like is every year there's a huge anniversary in the watch industry, which I can get into if you like.

Speaker 1:
[09:02] Tell me, is it just a way to re-market the product?

Speaker 2:
[09:07] Yeah. I think it's like when you take an industry that's so old, some of these brands dating back to the 1800s, there are so many anniversaries to celebrate. But yeah, it's also marketing. But it's something to celebrate. Oyster Perpetual, which is Rolex's first waterproof line, that turns a 100 years this year, and they released two new watches under that line that are definitely markedly for women or smaller wristed clients, which is cooler to see because over the past five years that I've been in the industry, we've definitely seen case sizes lowering and more focus on female clients. So yeah, we got a lot of new Rolexes, some gold, lots of yellow gold. Patek Philippe is celebrating 50 years of their iconic Nautilus watch this year, which was designed in 1976 by Gerald Gempto, who also designed the Audemars Piguet Royal Oak. He's like a hot shot designer in the industry. Rest in peace. Yeah, it's just 100 years of Tudor, which is Rolex's sister brand. So everybody's excited and celebrating.

Speaker 1:
[10:18] So what's the vibe? There were more people than ever. From my understanding, hard luxury jewelry is doing really well. Watches have been mixed in terms of sales, things like that because of all these issues with the exchange rate and the taxes and all of that bullshit. How are people feeling about the market itself? Was it positive? Did anyone talk about the fact that we're in multiple wars?

Speaker 2:
[10:49] Yeah. I mean, everybody's really media trained over there. When I try to dig, it's definitely hard, but it's been difficult. Pricing has been difficult with the tariffs. It's like the brands are adjusting their margins and it's like, how do we split this huge price increase and how much goes to the client, how much goes to us and who's absorbing what? But I think overall, there's a kind of optimism because despite all of this, despite the turmoil going on in the industry and the world, there's just such an increase in visibility in the watch industry thanks to content creators and increased coverage on legacy media websites. It's just crazy how watches have become kind of a priority category in terms of coverage. I mean, the fact that I'm speaking on fashion people for a second year in the row.

Speaker 1:
[11:41] Look, as we've discussed, I still haven't bought a second watch. I will though. Yeah. But people of a certain age now all are into watches. Even my husband is like, I'm going to stop wearing my Apple watch, I'm going to get a real watch.

Speaker 2:
[11:56] Yeah, it's about time.

Speaker 1:
[12:00] Truly. You know what's interesting? Because I'm currently spending a lot of time in Europe. A lot of people here wear Apple watches in an uncool way.

Speaker 2:
[12:10] Tell me more.

Speaker 1:
[12:11] Well, it's just like people you would not expect, like really chic people wear them. I'm like, you do realize, because I wore one for years. I'm not judging it that much, but at some point I was like, this doesn't feel right anymore, and I only use it for when I go on long runs. But a lot of really chic people wear them, and I'm like, do you realize it doesn't look good?

Speaker 2:
[12:38] Wait, but does that mean it's chic now and everybody's just, they don't give a fuck?

Speaker 1:
[12:42] No, I think that it's like a different mentality. A friend of mine is just wearing a fitness band.

Speaker 2:
[12:51] I was like, why are you wearing this?

Speaker 1:
[12:54] It's not even an Apple watch. And this is a person who asked me if they should get an Apple watch. And I was like, no. And now they're just wearing like a fitness band. I was like, the Apple watch would have been better. Also, this person does not even exercise. I don't know, whatever. Anyway, it's like a thing here right now.

Speaker 2:
[13:14] Oh, well.

Speaker 1:
[13:15] Moving on.

Speaker 2:
[13:15] The Milan Design Report, it's all, Apple watches are hot.

Speaker 1:
[13:20] You know what I totally forgot to talk about on the Tuesday episode is the Tea Magazine Party, which I went to on Monday night and was super fun. Like one of the best parties I've ever been to. No celebrities, no influencers, just like very chic design people and some fashion industry people who are also chic. And Hania, the editor in chief who's leaving was like glowing. She looked so happy and the Linneke, I think it's pronounced, don't at me, is amazing. Like, I don't know, I've never been to, I've never been to Salone, so it's been like, it was really incredible. One of the best parties I've ever been to. It was super fun for that kind of thing. Like, I'm not a big party person anyway, but it was, it was cool. But yeah, there were definitely Apple Watches there.

Speaker 2:
[14:16] Wow.

Speaker 1:
[14:16] Lots of Cartier, though. I think what I'm noticing is like my peer group and also people richer than me. Everyone here, including men, have a Cartier watch.

Speaker 2:
[14:27] Yeah, I mean, Cartier has just, it's been dominating just in terms of like non-watch people and watch people alike, but it's just like, your first watch was a Cartier, my first watch was a Cartier. It just seems like a no-brainer. Yeah, they had some cool novelties. Do you love the lingo, the novelties?

Speaker 1:
[14:47] Yes, I love a novelty. I love a novelty. Was there anything you wanted to buy for yourself?

Speaker 2:
[14:55] Well, I'm still not buying watches.

Speaker 1:
[14:58] Or you want someone to gift it to you?

Speaker 2:
[15:00] I know, that would be nice. Yeah, I really want a Rolex Daytona. I feel like that would be great. There's an amazing new one that's made out of steel and platinum, if I'm not mistaken.

Speaker 1:
[15:14] Sounds fab.

Speaker 2:
[15:15] But then there are a lot of fabulous watches that are like high jewelry, Mac Gala type, like Piaget had incredible pieces that really harken back to their Studio 54 Glamazon days. A lot of the brands are leaning into it, and I love what the jewelry houses are doing, or the non-strictly watch brands are doing. Hermes, I love what they're doing. I love what Chanel is doing in terms of not just product, they're really prioritizing their horological offerings, and that's amazing, but they're also doing cool marketing, which I think is really refreshing in this industry where the marketing can get a bit stale and almost like Photoshop-y job, and I'm like, why can't we make it look cool? So it's cool to see the brands that kind of have that more lifestyle edge doing cool things and creating products. Like Chopard has amazing watches, and they're so jewelry, a lot of them could be bracelets, and I'm just like, I want to wear that. I want to wear an all-diamond watch to Whole Foods or whatever.

Speaker 1:
[16:27] Totally.

Speaker 2:
[16:28] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[16:29] Is there any aesthetic trend, or is it too, I don't want to say slow moving, but too classic of an industry for there to be big aesthetic trends each season?

Speaker 2:
[16:42] Yeah, that's a really good question, and I've thought about this before, because it's not fashion, but I do feel like with the increased exposure of watches on social media and online, it's just impossible not to be impacted by what everybody's talking about, and what the celebrities are wearing. So it's like stone dials are really big right now. Like people are kind of having more fun in this kind of loosh like 70s way. Like Polo, the Polo, which is Piaget's probably most famous watch, they released like this really amazing lapis style, and it's super expensive and nobody can afford it. But it's like incredible to see, and Rolex has a beautiful green. I'm forgetting the stone. There are so many stones that I've never heard of before that are surfacing on watch dials where these people are slicing pieces of natural stone and they're putting them as the watch face, which is really cool. Yeah, so we're seeing that 70s glamorous maximalism. Like I said before, decreasing case sizes, which is definitely that masculine feminine mix where the guys are wearing more feminine pieces, but are also going back to what was the standard in the 50s when there were no oversized watches, like before Y2K came in and monster-sized everything. So there's kind of like a more classy vibe, I would say.

Speaker 1:
[18:15] Are men moving towards smaller too? Because I've also noticed a lot of men in Europe wearing Cartier watches, which tend to be smaller.

Speaker 2:
[18:22] Yeah, yeah. And if you look at old picture, like there's this amazing old photo of Muhammad Ali in the 60s, and he's wearing a tiny Cartier tank, and he's such a big guy. And that was once just the way people wore watches and that shifted, but now it's coming back. And a lot of men are wearing smaller case sizes. And we saw people like Tyler the Creator and Bad Bunny. And then every time there's a brand ambassador, a male brand ambassador on a red carpet for whatever brand, we're seeing a lot of these brands go into the archives and finding vintage ladies pieces to put them on their male talent kind of as a statement, or they're finding like a cool ladies watch in their contemporary lineup and they're putting it on the guy, because not only does it look cool and in this kind of like, you know, look at me like Mick Jagger kind of like, I could be femme way, but also it's like an immediate engagement bait where everybody starts talking about it online. So I think there's just like so many forces at play, and it's, it's resulting in trends, kind of permeating the industry much more than they used to.

Speaker 1:
[19:32] Final question, what are people wearing? Did you notice anything like any kind of shoe that was really popular, or a style of clothing, or was there anything this season that you were like, that's interesting that people glommed onto that?

Speaker 2:
[19:47] That's a good question. Well, first of all, the Watches and Wonders uniforms, like the staff changes every year, and this year what the staff was wearing were these kind of like denim, unisuits with like a little Parisian, like bandana around their neck and sneakers, which I felt was kind of signifying the overall vibe of the fair, which felt a lot more relaxed in a weird way. But you still get the CEOs wearing their kind of navy suits, but maybe they're wearing it with a sneaker because they're cool CEOs. I don't know. I was wearing Rapetto ballet flats.

Speaker 1:
[20:25] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[20:26] I love it. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[20:28] I needed a pair of ballet flats, Brynn. It was very nice to catch up with you.

Speaker 2:
[20:33] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[20:34] Still love it. Are you still obsessed with watches?

Speaker 2:
[20:36] Yeah. I'm still just loving it.

Speaker 1:
[20:39] Everyone, please hire Brynn to consult. Send her free watches. I feel like the free watch, I don't want to call it a racket, but I don't know if you want to talk about this. We can talk about it offline. I will just say from people I know, who engage in getting free stuff, especially at that level, it feels like it's hard to get a free watch. You really have to- They're not like, what's up? Here's a bunch of watches. No. They need to have a relationship with you. A lot of times, they still don't. They'll say they're going to do it, then they don't. It's interesting, but good for them.

Speaker 2:
[21:24] Yeah. The brands don't really need it so much. On a certain level, they're just like, you can buy it for a price.

Speaker 1:
[21:31] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[21:32] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[21:33] Brynn, it was so nice to catch up. I hope I see you in New York soon.

Speaker 2:
[21:36] Yeah, me too. Have fun in Milano.

Speaker 1:
[21:38] Thank you. We'll talk soon.

Speaker 2:
[21:40] Ciao.

Speaker 5:
[21:43] This spring at Hauser and Wirth in New York, visit Life with P, an exhibition that illuminates an intimate and rarely observed facet of Philip Guston's art. While this groundbreaking 20th century master is best known for raw painterly explorations of sociopolitical power and sobering inspections of human nature, this exhibition showcases Guston's more intimate paintings and works on paper in which the artist ruminates on his marriage to poet Musa McKim and their lives together in Woodstock. Life with P coincides with the release of a new book from Hauser and Wirth publishers by the same name, an illustrated compilation of Musa McKim's previously unpublished journals of her life with the artist from 1966 to 1976, contextualized by the couple's daughter, Musa Mayer. Visit hauserwirth.com for more information. Phillip Guston, Life with P is on view at 443 West 18th Street in New York now through July 10th.

Speaker 3:
[22:45] Have you ever felt like you were living just a B or B plus life? It's so dangerous to live that, more dangerous than a B minus or a C plus life, because when you're living a B or B plus life, you don't change it. You think it's good enough, is it? I'm Susie Welch. I host a podcast called Becoming You. People think, okay, an A plus life is not available to me, but there is a way. We are all in the process of becoming ourselves. Listen to Becoming You wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 1:
[23:17] Sander Lak, welcome to Fashion People.

Speaker 4:
[23:20] Hi, Lauren. Nice to be here.

Speaker 1:
[23:23] What do you have for breakfast this morning?

Speaker 4:
[23:25] Well, I am actually in Portugal, staying at this not very glamorous hotel near our factories, and they have this amazing breakfast. That's part of the whole thing, and it's like nothing fancy, but it's really great, and I tend to not really eat breakfast in the US, but when I'm in Europe, especially when it's part of the package deal of a hotel, I am Dutch after all, I have to get my money's worth, so I ate a lot of breakfast. Breads, eggs.

Speaker 1:
[23:53] So what is in it that's so good? Eggs?

Speaker 4:
[23:56] I mean, the bread is always great. The bread is really good here. I really just ate everything, the pastries, they have these amazing pastries. I just literally shoved my pie hole with anything that is there, and that's the only time I really eat breakfast because normally I don't, so you caught me in a breakfast day.

Speaker 1:
[24:16] So good. I am in Florence for Caring Investor Day and I'm staying at this hotel. It's not a hotel, it's like, I wanted to stay at this hotel that someone recommended, which by the way, don't ask for recommendations for a Florence hotel because you'll get like 75 different things. They all seem perfectly nice.

Speaker 4:
[24:38] Can you say what hotel it is?

Speaker 1:
[24:40] I don't want to say because it's like an apartment, because I'm going to make fun of the breakfast. But it's like an apartment. They own an apartment building or they occupy an apartment building like a 10 minute walk from the actual hotel. There were no rooms in the hotel left probably because of this conference, which is fine with me because I prefer staying in an apartment anyway.

Speaker 2:
[25:06] But they had like this spread.

Speaker 1:
[25:09] I have to show it. It's just so if I'm going to just get up and show it to you because it's so hilarious.

Speaker 4:
[25:15] Oh, my God.

Speaker 1:
[25:17] This is like the breakfast spread.

Speaker 4:
[25:19] Wait, you have to show the camera.

Speaker 1:
[25:20] It has all these cookies and shit in it. And then the Coco Pops.

Speaker 4:
[25:26] Oh, yum.

Speaker 1:
[25:27] Which I'm not going to eat them. There's the Big Bitties Digestives. It's so funny. There's like creamer. It's just like, I'm definitely, if I eat breakfast like an egg and croissant person and some ham and cheese, not...

Speaker 4:
[25:46] Well, it's nice to mix it up once in a while. Like I would literally, I would die if I would eat all of that in New York at home. Like I wouldn't, but when I'm away, I'm yeah.

Speaker 1:
[25:56] Yeah, you're walking, your factories, you get a lot of steps in, it's different in Europe. So tell me, let's go through, because we haven't had many designers on the podcast. I'm so excited. We've known each other for a long time. I think I wrote one of the first stories about Seismarjan, your previous brand. And I don't know, I just have really enjoyed following your career and seeing where it went and where it didn't and like the choices that you've made. Because as we were saying before we started recording, I feel like you're a person who really knows himself. So maybe let's start with like, where did you grow up? How did you grow up? How did you become a fashion designer?

Speaker 4:
[26:37] Well, I was born and raised all over the world. So I was born in Brunei, spent some years there and then moved to Malaysia. Then we lived in Africa in Gabon. From there we moved to Scotland and we lived in Aberdeen where my dad sadly passed away. And so we moved back to Holland. And when I say back to Holland, we moved basically to the country that I'm officially from, that I never lived. So as a basically a very young teenager, basically moving back to Holland. And there I always had this dream of being a filmmaker. I didn't really know fashion. Fashion was not really in my vocabulary. I was very visual. I was always drawing and I was always making things, but it was very film was really film America, Hollywood, New York, like those were my dreams. And I didn't get into film school in Holland. I was too young and they basically told me come back in a year or two, which for me was like the end of the world, like a year or two when you're like 18 is like a lifetime. So I basically went to an art school in Arnhem and that's where I kind of discovered fashion. I had a sort of an understanding of it from seeing clothes. I was always fascinated by the shapes of pockets. I was always fascinated by everyone always wearing a shirt and then my shirt had around it. Pockets and then somebody else's was squared and the other one was a point and I was always fascinated about why that was and who made that decision. But not really knowing that that's a whole industry. I was lucky to have spent my teenage years in Holland at a time when Dutch magazine was around, which was an incredible fashion magazine. There was also culture, fashion, sex, beauty. It was just this amazing, incredible magazine that I did not understand, but I was so intrigued by it. You could get it at a gas station in Holland because it was called Dutch, so people were just like, oh, sure, so it was available everywhere, but it was super niche. That's where I was introduced to some of that world. Then in art school, I went into the fashion direction, and then I discovered that it was almost like as if, it's going to sound a bit weird, but it's almost like a language that I had no idea that I spoke fluently. It just, I just got it. I just understood. I've never turned on the sewing machine. I didn't know what patterns were, but it all made a lot of sense. It was all very logical. I really thrived being a budding fashion designer, I guess. I could only relate it to myself, so I could only do menswear. I couldn't look outside of, I didn't grow up dressing Barbie dolls or dreaming about fashion, so I really started very raw in that sense. But it helped me as well, I think.

Speaker 1:
[29:39] Did your parents have any background, or what did they do that you were moving around so much?

Speaker 4:
[29:44] My dad used to be an engineer on the oil platforms for Shell. Oh, interesting. So every four years we would move. It was a very crazy job where the whole family would move. We would live in these compounds with other Dutch, and German, and British families, and all the husbands would be away on the oil rigs, and the wives and the kids were in the middle of the rainforest or in the Scottish Highlands or wherever. So it was this weird life.

Speaker 1:
[30:16] That's amazing. So you had no background from dressmaking or anything?

Speaker 4:
[30:23] No, not dressmaking. My references were always based on color as well. So for me, what was really one of the major things that really shaped a lot of my work, even when I was working for other people, was my mother used to dress me and my two brothers in contradicting colors from the environment. When we lived in Africa, we lived in the rainforests around the equator where Gabon is. So it's very, very lush and extremely green. So she would dress us in red so that she can see where we were in hiking up in a tree. There's one and then the other one is at behind that hill there because she could spot. So it's really for me that first knowledge or realization that color does this thing. This surface on this garment actually really creates this kind of clash. Or if they were to dress us in green, we would disappear. So it's this kind of idea that clothing and color, and I thought everyone was sensitive to it, and I thought everyone had these kind of emotional reactions to colors. My toys had to be a certain color and they couldn't be something else. But I thought that was very normal and that's kind of turned out that that's not normal. It's a gift. I don't know if it's a gift, but I definitely discovered it literally in art school. That was the first time that I was like, oh, you don't see things like that? Oh, you don't get nauseous when this color just pops up in your face? Oh, okay. Something wrong with me.

Speaker 1:
[31:55] This afternoon, I went to the Rothko exhibit, the Rothko show, which is at three different places, but I went to the main one. Apparently, it's in that church as well, and in the library, but I went to the main show, and it was so powerful.

Speaker 4:
[32:14] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[32:15] Like, crazy.

Speaker 4:
[32:17] Yeah, he really is... Yeah, he's capable of really giving a lot of emotion with his color.

Speaker 1:
[32:24] Yeah, I'm in a very weepy, and I'm not a crier. I'm just not sure you're shocked, but the older I've gotten, the harder it is. But I felt like the last room, which is basically him dying, I was like, oh my God. It's so... And I've seen shows previously, but there was just something so powerful about the show. And I wish, maybe I'll get to go come back, because the one in the paintings in the church, it's only available in the morning. I'm not going to be able to go. And then the library, I didn't even look.

Speaker 4:
[33:02] But I think it's interesting that you're saying about your emotional states, because I do think that's a big component of it. To just expect a work to just give you the emotion, that sounds very millennial of us to just want that. But really, it should be about enhancing the emotion that you have, or taking it away, or pushing it even further, which I find really interesting about his work.

Speaker 1:
[33:25] Yeah, that's a good way to frame it. So when you were in school, then you went and worked. So how did you figure out, did you want to do your own brand from the beginning?

Speaker 4:
[33:39] Yeah. So I graduated from my bachelor in Holland in R&M, and I still knew nothing. So I was like, okay, I should do another something. Sometimes people think that it's laziness, sometimes people think it's just stupidity, but I tend to just go for something and not really plan that many other backup things. So I just applied to Central St. Martins because I read somewhere, probably in whatever, the face or something, like this is the best school. I was like, okay, well, I'll apply there. Not really knowing anything or just doing that. So then I had this interview with Louise Wilson, who was still alive back then. She was the head of the course and of the MA, and she basically hired me or hired me, how do you say, accepted me on the spot. Then I was like, oh shit, okay, so I have to go to London. But I knew I needed more, I needed to do more because I wanted to start my own label, but I wanted to really do more. Then I went into that and then that course at the time, it's still a little bit like that, but at the time, it was really about getting the best people from other schools and then breaking them down and then starting them again. I again had no idea, so I was like, la-di-da, I'm just going to go in. I looked around and I was like, oh God, everyone is so good. I barely understand how to sew a seam. Shit. Then it was really, really rough. In that course, I really realized, okay, I don't think I'm ready for my own brand. I think we're talking about 2008. Great time as we all know.

Speaker 1:
[35:19] Well, also in a really crazy time to be in London. Yes, crazy time. In the fashion world and Christopher Kane and Jonathan Saunders, and Richard Nichol and all these people coming up. Also thinking about 2008 and all of your peers who were either there or at Antwerp at the time and what everyone has done. But that was like, and also like a crazy time, obviously economically too. Yeah, but it must have been wild to be there.

Speaker 4:
[35:53] Yeah. And there's something about that. Like I, I sometimes do like teaching and stuff at schools. And like when people, students ask me about this time that we're in now, and oh my God, like, how can I be a fashion designer? And there's something about that 2008 period as well, where I feel like graduating in 2008. Initially, like this was, I graduated in like before the summer. So it was before kind of like, you know, the financial crisis really hit, but it was all in the air already. But I felt like being a grad student, like being, you know, being so kind of like a worthless, actually really gave me a leg up because I was the cheapest hire. I was the absolute bottom of the barrel, cheapest hire. So I got the jobs because they were like really scrambling of like, you know, trying to get. So there's something about that I say to students, like, you know, like there is also, you know, there is a version of these stories that could also really work in your benefit. And that is what happened. Like I graduated from Central SIP Martins, did my MA in menswear originally. And, you know, like I got jobs and I got offers and it was very easy. And it's not because I'm amazing. It's not because I'm an amazing designer. It was also just because I came from a good school, but also I was just like, hire me. I'll do whatever. Like, you know, like I have no mortgage. I have no nothing. Like, you know, if I just have lunch and I have peanut butter for dinner, like it's fine. And there's something about that mentality that goes really well hand in hand with the kind of crisis modes that everyone was in in 2008 and nine.

Speaker 1:
[37:27] Totally. I think there's something about, it's also an attitude of there have been in the last couple of days, it's been all the luxury earnings. And it's all been really bad, but like, yes, it's been bad because A, the consumer's behavior has changed, it's not gonna be like it was. And B, there is a big war. And like all these headlines like, oh my God, they're all screwed. And it's like, yeah, of course there's a war. Like, of course the numbers aren't gonna be great. Like, I'm not saying you have to report on it, but it's just, it's this panicky thing where, in reality, like there is a huge amount of opportunity for innovation and also just like recalibration of how we do things. And it's just a matter of like being game and being up for it.

Speaker 4:
[38:23] And I also think knowing, sorry.

Speaker 1:
[38:26] No, no, keep talking.

Speaker 4:
[38:27] I was also thinking like while you were saying that knowing kind of what some of these factors are is actually way better than not knowing at all. Like if you're just in this blind spot where you're just like, I don't understand why this is not working. You know, like there's really clear indications of this is happening ABC and then this is happening.

Speaker 1:
[38:47] Totally. It's once you've been through it once, you are more prepared. Really quickly before we get into how you got to where you are. It's funny that you mentioned Dutch because I've become newly obsessed with it because of that System Magazine interview with the editor and they ran some of the images from that 80 page spread of No Clothes, which I thought was so brilliant. But, and I remember seeing some of your really early collections and just understanding, I think you and I are like either the same age or like a year apart or something. I think we're the same.

Speaker 4:
[39:27] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[39:28] 82?

Speaker 4:
[39:29] 83. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[39:30] Okay.

Speaker 4:
[39:31] Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[39:31] I thought, yeah, I was like, I think you're a little younger than me. But I think like your references are so clear to me. Of like a certain Versace collection or the color or whatever. And how much of like being a 90s kid do you think has informed your sort of like idea of what you think fashion should look like?

Speaker 4:
[39:56] Oh, that's a really good question. I mean, I think every generation has its period where like we are the most kind of like heightened as a sponge. And I think for us, let's say like people of our age, like I do think that it was in the 90s, where we were sort of naive enough to not really fully see the real side of things, but then sort of developed and sophisticated enough to really dig deep in certain areas. And I think the 90s, I mean, it was a great, it was a great time if you really look back at it and kind of what people were doing. And like there is a, you know, there's sort of like an expression and I think it's different. It's a little bit strange for me because I didn't really spend the beginning part sort of like aware of that. And then in the 90s, when I was living in Holland, I got the Dutch version of the 90s in a way, which is a little bit different. I mean, you know, we also listened to the Spice Girls and I went to the Titanic 14 times and all of that stuff. But I literally did. I actually did. I saw it 14 times. I was one of those. Wow.

Speaker 1:
[41:01] That's amazing.

Speaker 4:
[41:02] Yeah. It was sad. Like I think at number 10, like the person in Dembos, the town, the cinema, was like, you're going in again? I was like, yeah. So yeah. So I am that generation. But yeah, I think there's also something about it that I find really comforting, but I also feel like it's something that I'm trying to also not just go into that comfort. Like I'm trying to also not just do the obvious references and step away from it, or see things from that point of view of the 90s, but then modernize it. But yeah, for me, there's nothing more beautiful than a grungy person. That's just like falling apart. Like that for me is the most. At C'est Marjean once, we had a show, and I think the highlight of my life was that Courtney Love came, and I actually had to go up to her hotel room before the show to dress her. She just started telling me stories as if I knew any of the people she was talking about, or stripping completely naked and I'm standing in front of her, and I was like, I don't think it gets any better than this.

Speaker 1:
[42:11] No.

Speaker 4:
[42:12] So, yes, I guess I'm a 90s kid.

Speaker 1:
[42:15] She came up recently for someone that we were saying she should come to, who was it? I need to think about it, that she should come to some show. And I was like, I think that we can make it happen. But that's, yeah, I mean, it's-

Speaker 4:
[42:29] She's, yeah, the best.

Speaker 1:
[42:30] I'm curious to know from you when, it's because you do have such a strong point of view. It's so clear, you clearly know what you like. You're your own person. You might reference the 90s, but it's Sander. It's not anybody else. You can see something. If I walked on the street and I see something that you designed, I often can identify it. That is so rare. When you-

Speaker 4:
[43:00] Thank you, that means a lot.

Speaker 1:
[43:02] No, I mean, it's the truth. It's remarkable, especially in this market where so much is designed to- Because stuff will be in the air, and everybody does this one shape of shoe. I'll show you these shoes that I just got. Everybody's doing this shoe right now, which I love, which is like a retro pump. But everyone has their version, and they're different, but it's all the same. And you can be in the conversation, but it feels singular. And I think that's, it's so unique. Where did you work? Like what were some of your, I know you were at Dries, which when you first started Seize Marjan, everybody was like, this kid from Dries. But where did you work? And like, what did you learn working at the different European houses about how that all operates?

Speaker 4:
[44:04] So after Sip Martens, I basically, I was in London, I was running out of money and I moved myself to Paris to live on the couch of somebody that I knew. And just walking around with my portfolio under my arm and just literally going to the stores and leaving my portfolio in places. That's what we used to do. And I basically, I was with a friend and a friend of mine recognized Christophe Descarnais who was at Balmain at the time. I did not recognize him, but he was like, oh, he's like, I think he's going to be like the hardest thing. And I was like, great. So I just ran up to him. I really have no shame and I have no ego about things. So I just ran up to him and I was just like, hi, I don't speak French. I just graduated. I would love to work for you. I love your work. I have no idea. And here's my portfolio and he kind of like, oh, oh, and then he kind of like sent me to the store and I said, drop it off there. So then I went, so that happened and then the next week I flew to New York for interviews that I arranged and then one of the interviews was with Phillip Lim. And Phillip hired me on the spot. So this is, we're talking 2008. Phillip hired me on the spot, organized my visa. He was just like, yes, come, like this is great. So then I was like, okay, great. So go back and like grab my stuff. And having lived all over the world, like this kind of moving thing is not a thing. Like I just grabbed my four belongings and put it in suitcase and I moved to New York. So I go to New York and I work for Philip, which is a very specific brand. I didn't know much about Philip Lim. It's a very American brand. I was very pretentious European. But it was a job. It was an opportunity. I loved Philip. He was amazing. Everyone there, Wenn, who is his partner, incredible. And I was there for really a couple of months. And then Balmain came calling, where Kiss of Thicc and I used to work. And they were like, oh, the creative director said, you're CV, you should come. And then I was like, oh shit, I just started this job. So I talked to Philip and I told Philip this when I saw him a while ago. I was like, it's one of the things that I still am so grateful for, for that conversation of me being like, look, Philip, you hired me on the spot, you took me here, but I think I have an opportunity that I kind of need to do back in Europe. And he was so supportive and he was like, Sander, absolutely, this sounds great. No worries. It's also taught me a lot about later in life when I had employees and people and to also kind of really be encouraging of people's careers and not just only see things from your own point of view. And so I moved to Paris, worked for Balmain. So this was 2009. Everyone was in crisis mode. People were like, you know, completely slashing budgets and making things cheaper. Unless, but us, like at Balmain at the time, we just did the first disco shoulder collection. I was working on the men's, but you basically worked on the men's and the women's at the same time. And it was just gangbusters. Like we were making real crocodile twiles that all the interns were allowed to just cut and paste. And I mean, we couldn't make it expensive enough. It was just the craziest time. We had these boards in one of our offices. We had these boards where the press team would put the covers of all the collections. And it was one board, and then it was two boards. And then at some point it was the whole room. And it was every Vogue, every Elle, every Beyonce, Rihanna, every single person on the cover of every magazine wearing the Mad Max shoulder things. It was crazy, and it was so intense. And it was also weird because it wasn't really my kind of product, but I kind of understood how to mold myself to it. But it was also quite a toxic environment. It was very French. It was very, you arrive at 11, 1130, and then we would smoke all day long, drink coffee all day long, and then we took like three hour lunches, and then we would be there till 2 a.m. every day. And it was like this kind of environment. But it was also really exciting. It was exciting to be in that environment. But then, we all know what happens. Like I think that was a really complicated situation for him. So he was not well. So we could all see that. I think that was also a very good lesson. I can talk about it now because it's long enough ago as well. But I think it is a really good lesson for me that I could really see like, okay, if that kind of success, because it was the hottest brand for a year or two. So it was also really interesting to then see what that does to someone, like what that kind of pressure does and what kind of person you need to be to deal with that kind of heightened success. That's not for everyone.

Speaker 1:
[48:58] Totally, and he is so talented and there's always like, you'll hear he's ghost designing some line for some department store. It just is interesting that he made such an impact. Yeah. Also, that Olivier, you must have worked with Olivier.

Speaker 4:
[49:20] Yeah, Olivier and I were working together. Basically, Olivier was hired a few months after me, and he was really on the women's and I was doing the men's, but then also doing the women's because the women's obviously needed a lot more hands all the time. I love Olivier. He's really sweet and I was really happy when he got that job. But yeah, it was a really crazy time. When I was there and I saw to, oh God, this is a horrible 90s thing, but to reference Titanic again, I felt like I was on the Titanic. The bands were starting to play and I was like, maybe I should try and get on one of those boats. So I was trying to see what else I would like to do. Then I really kept thinking about after two jobs where I did the jobs because they were there, they were exciting, but they weren't the kind of clothes that I was necessarily that into. I could mold myself into them, but it was not connecting. I was like, I should go somewhere where I really connect to the clothes. There was only a handful of people that were like that, and Dries Van Noten was one of them. So like I've done everything else, I just send an e-mail and I was like, I'm going to be in Antwerp tomorrow, and I would like to go for an interview, and somehow got in and then had the interview with Dries. And he was kind of like a little flabbergasted by my Balmain portfolio, which has nothing to do with him. But you could probably see that I was hungry and I would do whatever. And so it was like, sure, let's try. So then I got hired at Dries and I worked there for four and a half years. I was doing, starting first at the men's, starting with like the jerseys at the men's, and then adding the belts to it, and then adding the main collection to it, and adding the women's to it, and adding the shoes to it, and sort of like really working with him there in Antwerp, which was a really incredible experience. It's funny because I feel like obviously I learned a lot, you know, an immense amount, but the really, really important kind of like life-changing things, I learned almost more at Balmain, which was so far away from me and was such a heightened experience, where Dries was perfect. Like Monday to Friday, you know, nine to five, basically. Like I would go into the office because I was bored, you know, like I was like, because I really just wanted to work more. Like, you know, it was such a perfect environment. I was young, so I was kind of like, you know, ready to rumble and I was stuck in this village. But it was incredibly, incredibly powerful, if I look back at it, of how a company can be run and how you can also how you can build a collection, like how, you know, Dries is one of the very few brands that actually makes their money with selling clothes. You know, again, I'm talking about my period there. Like now things have changed a little bit and there's perfume and there's an acquisition. But back then it was 95% clothes, you know, and it was a really healthy, thriving company. What other brands are there like that? You know, like a Rick Owens and like, I mean, those are the good ones really, like, it doesn't really exist.

Speaker 1:
[52:22] No, it's like the, who was I talking to about this a couple of, oh, it was a designer who shall remain nameless. But talking about like, it used to be that like, have a good $250 million business.

Speaker 4:
[52:37] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[52:38] And you have a nice life.

Speaker 4:
[52:39] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[52:40] You're not owned by anybody.

Speaker 4:
[52:41] Yep.

Speaker 1:
[52:42] And you sell stuff and you price it to be sold. So one of the big revelations for me was that Dries was not crazy expensive. I remember being at a fashion show in Paris and Leandra Medina had on a pair of chinos from Dries. And she was like, they were like 300 euro. I'm sure they're not that anymore. It's probably 10 years ago. But then I went and like bought all these T-shirts in amazing colors and like his basics were amazing or are amazing. Yeah. There aren't as many of those businesses anymore because they all got so obsessed with this idea of being able to sell like high margin handbags.

Speaker 4:
[53:23] Well, I think also their business model was really based on this idea that they're an Antwerp and they're not in the main capital. Like the employment is a little bit cheaper. The rent is cheaper. All this stuff, they did two shows a year, two for women or four shows, two for women, two for men. No big ad campaigns, no big things. It's really reducing, and I say reducing in a positive way, not a negative way, reducing it to the essence, which is the clothes. The clothes really do the selling and the storytelling, and there's no extra stuff around it. That was such an amazing thing to experience, especially after coming from the opposite, where it was all about getting Beyoncé in as many of these outfits as possible. That was the business model basically. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 4:
[57:01] I mean, I was in my like 20s, late 20s and I'm just like, I'm a city kid and it was very hard for me. I loved the job. I still dream about it sometimes about actually being back there. Because the confines of the job itself, the being in that building, there's something so exciting about that. But then outside was really hard for me. Now it will be different. Now I'm older and now I probably would like that life. But at the time, I was like, I don't know what to do. I would just go to Paris with a train or just go everywhere. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[57:41] I went there for a weekend once and I was like, I was like, I don't know how people live here. Which is funny because you think of all these designers who live there on the weekends. And it's like, it must just be like you're in your garden, not to be cliche about Dries, but literally in your garden and just enjoying your life at home. Because there isn't anything to do.

Speaker 4:
[58:07] No, I mean, I was like the young blood for like about six months. The new person in town for about six months. So that kind of says, and again, Antwerp is different now and it's like, this is a long time ago and I was in my 20s. Like, you know, it's a very different thing. Like, I don't want any people coming after me. We love Antwerp, but it was hard to live there. It was hard to live there, yes.

Speaker 1:
[58:30] Yeah. So did you go straight from Dries to starting C's?

Speaker 4:
[58:35] No. So actually what happened is that I, so after a couple of years at Dries, I could really feel that I kind of reached the ceiling of what the possibilities were within the company. And I've always been very ambitious. So I kind of always, I was always like, give me more, give me more, give me more, give me more. So I got more, I got more, I got more. But at some point I felt like I reached a little bit the limit of what Dries or the company would allow me. And fair enough, it's his company and I think things work in different ways. And I felt like I wanted to do something where I have more autonomy or a little bit more power. And I'm not power hungry because it's not about power, it's really more about being able to create and do things. So I had an honest conversation about it and I was like, look, I think I need to make that next move, whatever that is. And then we talked about it and then that was totally fine. And then I had a couple of months to stay and do job interviews, which again taught me a lot about how you can be as a boss when there are people on your team that might want to move on, like it doesn't need to be this harsh thing or this cut off, or you could do it in a civilized way. So anyway, I then started putting the feelers out and I kept getting basically the same job, but then for other people. So it would be the right hand of XYZ. And then I mean, the story is strange in that sense, that it's like I kind of, it kind of sort of came on my lap. I was supposed to go to another house that hired me. That was a very, very good one that everyone wanted to go to. And I was like, okay, I'll probably do that because it felt like everyone wanted to go there. And so I was like, okay, I should probably do that. And then I got this really strange kind of opportunity in New York, which was what ended up being the C-Smerjan opportunity, which wasn't presented as that, but we morphed it into that. So I kind of felt like I have this one thing, which is like the pinnacle of jobs at that time and still now. Or I can do this thing, which I have no idea what this is. And it's in New York. And then I kind of was really nauseous for a week. And then I decided to do the thing that was the scariest one, where I had the least amount of knowledge about, because that's what I tend to do.

Speaker 1:
[60:55] Yeah, that's so interesting. So it was this family, the Marks family, owned this brand, Ralph Rucci. Ralph Rucci had left the business and they wanted a new designer. And by the time you all launched it, and Nancy Marks, who is, she was like the CEO of the business, big fan of Nancy Marks, by the way. Yes, we love her. But she, at some point, you all decided to make a new brand instead.

Speaker 4:
[61:24] Yes, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[61:25] What was the sort of concept behind Seize Marjan? And what was it like? Because you had Joey, who was your CEO, who had been in the business for a long time. So he understood how fashion worked. Obviously, Nancy had been around fashion a lot. But what was like, and you had the Atelier, which was amazing to start.

Speaker 4:
[61:46] It was like a couture Atelier, only couture couture in America, basically.

Speaker 1:
[61:51] It's incredible. So what did you sort of, when you realized that you were gonna be able to make a brand from scratch, how did you figure it out?

Speaker 4:
[62:03] Fake it till you make it. I mean, I kind of just go and try, and I mean, it was not perfect. It was the first time that after six months of trying to figure that out, I had to for the first time in my life go into therapy, and there's a lot of stuff that comes with that kind of thing that I never expected. But I never even allowed myself to give up or to think about giving up or to think about that I really didn't know what I was doing. I kind of just kind of go. And what I loved about that is that what was there was very specific, and it was like the leftovers of something that didn't exist anymore. And it was pattern makers that are, they'd never done a normal machine like buttonhole, like everything was done by hand. So I had a real ready to wear, menswear, ready to wear kind of background. So I knew all of that stuff and they knew stuff that I'd never, I'd never worked on couture. Like I, you know, like that was a completely different world for me. So the clash of that became something really interesting. And that's kind of what I focused on. So instead of it being like, oh my God, this is overwhelming. I was just like, you know, I have my skills, they have their skills. Let's build something, something from there. And, you know, Joey and Nancy and I, like we were really, you know, we were just like hit the ground running and, and somehow we're able to attract the right people to, you know, to kind of pull it all together. And yeah, it was kind of like a little bit of like an American dream, I call it, you know, like it's this kind of thing of like, okay, I moved to America and then all of a sudden this thing is, the possibility is there.

Speaker 1:
[63:46] Well, it's also was like the last time where there was, and we've talked about this, where there was a show in New York that everyone was like, you have to go to this show. It's going to be a really big deal. Like Anna Wintour telling everyone to go to the show. That I don't think has happened. There are some amazing designers in New York working in New York right now, but like I don't think it's happened since that. And that was what, 2018?

Speaker 4:
[64:14] The first show was 2016. So that was a fall of 2016, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1:
[64:19] Yeah, and I just remember it was like, you have to go. It's going to be such a big deal.

Speaker 4:
[64:23] Oh, that's so fun.

Speaker 1:
[64:24] And it was, it was like, oh my God. And it was also, I remembered, because I remember maybe when the apartment by the line went out of business or something, friends of mine getting your dresses. But it was also a really interesting time in fashion where there was like, it was like post Net-a-Porter, but there was still tons of opportunity in multi-brand retail. So there were all these new things coming up. And there was just like, there was matches, there was, it wasn't post Net-a-Porter, obviously, but post like the launch of that. And so there was just, there was tons of opportunity and money in multi-brand retail still. And it just felt really exciting that this brand that was completely new, it was solidified so fast. And that must have been, it must have been fun to experience. Yeah, it was really fun.

Speaker 4:
[65:20] Yeah, it was really fun. And really, it's like I published a book with Rizzoli about Cismarjan like two years after closing. And that was one of the only the first periods that I really was able to look back at it. Because when you're in it, like you're in it and you just go from one collection to the next. And, you know, where you are in time is always very strange, you know, when you work in collections, because you're promoting a thing that you did six months ago and you're making this thing that will be in store six months from now. And, you know, so you don't really know where you are. So then looking back at it when I was doing the book, like, yeah, I was really proud of the work that we all did and that it was this crazy kind of moment and, you know, it wasn't perfect, like certain things worked, certain things didn't. But, you know, we really pushed something, you know, and I think it was from day one, from the very first look to the last one, like it was clear what C'est Marjan was, and I think that was something that, that was the thing that I always knew I was missing working for other people because I was, I was at enhancing other people's vision, you know, or I was like making them better or adjusting them or, but it was, it was sort of somebody else's frame that I was working within, and this was completely blank. And I knew that I had the capability to create something that had that point of view. I mean, I was hoping, I was wishing that I did, but I think in that environment, like I was also very lucky to work with people that also really wanted that, you know, and really were very encouraging of that. Because that's of course what you need as well. So yeah, now I look back at it as like a real exciting thing and another lifetime ago. Also, not just, you know, in years, but also just like what the industry was, like what you were saying, like, you know, it was a different time. The pre-pandemic years felt very different in so many ways, and in fashion, just as much, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[67:13] So the business closed during like the peak pandemic. I remember talking to Isabella and like it, they did the marks decided to close it. When that happened, I mean, it was like real lockdown. I was still living in Brooklyn.

Speaker 4:
[67:28] Oh yeah, this was the height, height, height of pandemic.

Speaker 1:
[67:30] Yeah, so understandable things run their course, et cetera, et cetera. It was a tough time. What are you thinking right then? Are you like, I don't want to ever do this own brand, own brand like single brand thing again. Are you thinking, I need to get to Europe and get back into the system there? Like what was your, or like I need a year off or whatever. I hope you got some time off. I don't know how much time you took.

Speaker 4:
[68:02] Oh yeah, I took a lot of time. I basically, when that all happened, I basically was stuck in the US, with paperwork and all that stuff. So my partner who was an actor, he got a job in LA for about a year. So I basically had to, if I were to go back to Europe, I could not come back into the US. So we decided to stay in the US. So I was stuck in that sense. So that option wasn't really there. But I also feel like after, Marjan, I really felt like I've worked for amazing people. I had a version of my own brand, even though it wasn't my brand, it had my parents' names, it had complete creatively, visually was my vision. So I was like, what more do I want? I kept thinking about what I wanted to be when I was a kid. So I kept thinking we're moving to LA, the place that I was thinking of when I was a kid. So I started working on the screenplay, started working on the graphic novel, I started working on furniture fabrics, I started working on the Rizzoli book that I published about C. Smarjan. So I did all these other things because I really felt like every time anything was related to the industry or fashion for the first two, three years, two years, I wasn't interested. I really, and some of that was probably grief, some of that was this extreme change. My dad passed away when I was younger and my life, how it was with us traveling was really related to my dad's work. So when my dad passed away, our lives really were turned upside down because all of a sudden we had to live in Holland where I didn't really know what Holland was. I only knew grandma lives there and the winters are cold. So there was a real change, like one of the biggest changes in my life. The strangest thing is when C. Smarjan closed, Cease is my father's first name and Marjan is my mom's first name. So it almost had a little bit of a aftermath effect of what I wasn't capable of digesting when I was younger, when my dad passed away. So there was all of this other stuff that came up with this, this really abrupt change. That I also really felt like this, I need to take this moment to also really look at all of that. The grief of the company became the grief of my dad, which came like the acceptance of becoming an adult, which became like the childhood dream that I had to become a filmmaker. Like it all kind of connected into this much deeper thing. And I felt like it would be a shame, because of course people were calling and they were offering things. And I was just like, I think I'm missing my opportunity to really like dive into life in a way and dive into something else. So yeah, so then when I basically finished my screenplay and we had a director attached and I was kind of like really, you know, on that boat and on that road. And I released my book with Hitzoli and all of a sudden, like I got that feeling again in my stomach, that feeling that I had when I started like understanding why these pocket shapes on shirts are so different. And like I was going back to the basics in a way. And I really felt like I needed to get through that whole process of disconnecting from it, grieving, really sort of like having a very almost like symbolic like kind of version of like all of this stuff to kind of go back into it and be like, oh, actually my love is still there. I just needed to also get rid of my ego, get rid of what I thought I need, what I was used to. Like I worked with the best people. Like I, you know, Lotta Volkova did our first two shows. Like I worked with Anthony Turner, like Bruce Weber shot our campaign, like at Dries I worked with, you know, like all the greats. I was just like, I've had so much amazing access to things. And I kind of felt like I needed to break that all down to be like, oh, I actually don't think that's necessarily what it is. I think it is that thing, the pockets, the garments, that is the love that I kind of forgot about almost.

Speaker 1:
[72:22] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[72:23] Does that make sense? I don't know, maybe I'm rambling here.

Speaker 1:
[72:25] Yes, for sure. I mean, it's like, we were messaging the other day and it's like, you don't do this. You can't do this and really do it unless it's the love of...

Speaker 4:
[72:39] Yes, the love of your life.

Speaker 1:
[72:40] The garment. Yeah. There's no reason to. There's no, it's going to be hard.

Speaker 4:
[72:45] Yeah, like you can do literally anything else and it'll be easier and probably you'll be more successful. So there is no reason to do this.

Speaker 1:
[72:54] So when you decided to launch Sander Lak, which how, has it been a year?

Speaker 4:
[73:01] So we launched the brand in June of last year. So yeah, so the product has now been in the stores just for three months. The first three.

Speaker 1:
[73:08] For three, oh wow. Okay.

Speaker 4:
[73:10] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[73:11] When you decided to launch and build this, how did you think about it? Obviously, not obviously, but did you raise some money? How did you think about, I'm going to do this again, knowing how hard it is to get into this business, or to be able to survive in this business. How did you decide to approach it from a financing perspective, but also from a distribution perspective, a design cadence perspective? What was your idea of what it could be?

Speaker 4:
[73:46] So when I was really thinking about it, when the first idea started, it was really trying to figure out what I learned, what I liked about how I did things before, what I didn't like. So it was really sort of like analyzing, and what I was saying earlier, like the ego is also connected to what you think you need, and then really sort of trying to be like, okay, what is really the bare minimum? Not from a, because I am expecting to only be able to raise the bare minimum, but really from a kind of point of view of like, what does it really take to make something great? And if you just focus on that instead of having all the other stuff that we think we need. So from there on out, I really started putting a business plan together. I started putting up, you know, like a business plan together that sort of connected directly to also the brand's idea and the philosophy, which is basically, in a nutshell, kind of connected to my own upbringing, where Sander Lak, the brand, like Sander Lak, the person, I'm giving it a life where, almost like a nomadic life, where each year, and a year can be an actual year, can be, you know, more or less, we're pretending that Sander Lak is based in a certain location. So year one is the Sander Lak as a Los Angeles-based brand. Year two, which is coming out in June, is a different country. I'm not gonna tell you which one. And it was really about the idea of how I was raised, where it is so much about absorbing color, texture, mood. It's not about the representation. It's not reflecting the place. In the LA collections, which we've now had two of them, there's no I love LA or Hollywood signs. It's nothing like that. It's really more about when you wake up, what's the color that hits your eyes? What's the texture you want on your skin? What are these kind of components? And then with that, we have this idea around it as well, where every lookbook has to be shot locally with local talents and really sort of using the local for some of these external marketing components as well. And then the collaboration component will also work directly within these. So it's almost like a moving circus in that sense. So with that obviously comes a certain type of business model. My first business model was not very good because the first one actually meant the company would actually be in those places. I really tried, but that's really impossible. Like already just with like figuring out the text, like things are just like, okay, no, that's not going to work. So it needs to be metaphorical. But again, I've never really worked on a business plan. Like I've never raised money, but it is one of those things where I really realized, like when I left Dries and went to New York to start C'est Marjan, I kind of knew deep down there are these things that I am really interested in. And I'm not the best person, but I feel like I can sort of fake it a little bit and get other people to surround me with. So I really put this idea together. I knew that it had to be in America because, you know, America is still the place where people write checks very easily when they like an idea, you know? Like I think it's, I mean, raising was hard for sure. You know, it was not an easy thing, but it was easier here than it would have been if I did that in Paris or in Holland or in, so there's something about that kind of idea of like, if you have a great idea, if you can talk well, if you have stuff to back it up, like you can open doors really quickly and people get really enthusiastic and they will, they will introduce you to somebody else and that person is like, oh, actually, you know what? Yeah, I'd rather give you like a hundred thousands and then just, you know, like then do this or do that. Like it's, and that kind of mentality is very American and I love that. It really gives me a lot of joy and that's the part of America that I am still in love with. So, yeah, so I started, I raised money and we had enough at some point to start and to, you know, like open a bank account and to get an office and like, you know, do all of that stuff and get a really small team together and then just start. I never really thought about the clothes in that process because I knew what I, I knew that that was not going to be the issue. Like I knew that once I'm in the factory, once I see, like, you know, that will go. So it was really about a year, year and a half of like, okay, how do I convince people that I am worthy of investment? How do I convince people that this is something that is needed? How do I convince people this is a new idea? How do I, you know, so it was really about that. And it was only really when we started, I started going to the factories in Portugal and that I was like, looking at fabrics and I was like, okay, I think this is what the clothes are going to be like. And that was kind of funny because I almost felt like, maybe normally it's the other way around, where you have to present what you're making, you know, but I kind of did business plan first. But that's also because I have a back, you know, I have a history of stuff and so they could look at that. But it was very interesting. I feel like I've learned so many things that I'd never thought that I was going to learn or that I was going to be exposed to. Like the pain of a rejection of a conversation that you've had with someone that went really well and then, you know, there ends up not being any investment. Like, how do you know what that feels like until you really experience it? And then on the other hand, the moment that somebody's like, yeah, and then you look at your bank accounts and then all of a sudden the money is on it, you're just like, you did this, like you created this, you know, like there is something and it's not about money, like it's not about power, it's really just about this kind of joy that happens when you really work on something and you really believe in something and then somebody else believes in it or somebody doesn't believe in it, you know, how painful that can be too. But yeah, it's like, it's about living a full life. I think that's quite, it's about, I just want to live the fullest life. I want to feel it all.

Speaker 1:
[79:45] I feel you, I feel very similarly. It's the full.

Speaker 4:
[79:50] Well, yeah, you're crying at these Rothko paintings and everything.

Speaker 1:
[79:53] Yeah, I mean, it's like, you know, I'm really going through it. But you are so clear about who you are as a designer and a creator. When you went through all of this, you were able to build it and launch it. What were some of the big things you learned in this past year? The product's only been in the stores for three months. But as 2008, it's been a crazy time to launch something and to be in wholesale and all of that. What was the sort of market reaction and how was it different from when you launched Seize?

Speaker 4:
[80:40] Oh, completely different. I mean, funnily, I say completely different, but then also when I really think about doing the showroom in Paris for that first season in June last year, I was also really, I hadn't done that in four years. I actually had not been a part of the fashion industry in that way for four years. I was kind of nervous and I was like, oh God, do I speak that language even? Do I know? It ended up being all the same people. They moved jobs or they were at different places, but we're speaking to a lot of the same people, and the new people were people that were the assistants from the time when I was there. So it didn't feel that different when it came down to the personal part, the people parts. But I think it is different, but also Sander Lak is different from C'est Marjan. So what we needed to do at C'est Marjan and what we needed to achieve there, we had a ginormous office. We had 30 people, employees. It was a whole different set up. So there were different types of expectations there. This is a much smaller operation. It's almost like we're like a little boat between all the cruise ships. But what's also great about that is we can turn around and turn left and right really quickly and move with the moment and move with what's happening. And I think the first collection sold incredibly well for all the great stores. Wholesale is obviously a really important part for many reasons. And one of them as a small business is also cash flow. And there's components like with the minimums at factories. Like if we were just to do DTC, like there are certain pieces that I wouldn't be able to actually get the minimum to get the right margin to get the right. So there's all of these components. And then of course, being in the right store, like I was in Berkdorf the other day, and we had the reel in between, Sander Lak reel in between Balenciaga and Tom Ford's. Strange mix, but kind of like an amazing moment. Or just like, oh wow, like that's, there is that power too. But what we are noticing, and that's something we didn't really do that much at C'est Marjan because it was a different time as well. But we've been doing a few pop-ups and just super last-minute, we find a space, like one of them was like a nail salon and we converted it in like four hours into a shop and they have been doing so incredibly well, so much better than like our online thing because people want to see, and my product is something that your eyes, your hands, like it helps. Our clothes are easy in that sense, like it's genderless, so we make it so it really fits well. The fabrics are great, it's not complicated, but it's really rich in color and material. So people try it on and once they try it on, they almost always end up buying it. I think there's that component which initially I wasn't really thinking about that much, but now we're really shifting our model and being like, okay, this is obviously working for us. We're doing in three days what we do in like five months online. It's crazy. So that's something that we need to now adjust. That means we need to adjust the business model, we need to adjust all these other things. But I think that flexibility is something that wasn't really so much there back in those days. Back in the days, it was like you have your hierarchy, you have this person you need to please, you have this thing that you need to do. The store comes at year number six and now it is everyone has to just do what works for them. And that is more the language that is me. I like to do things in my own way.

Speaker 1:
[84:18] Yeah, well, I mean, you're doing it. I think my last question for you is, as a creative person, has your process changed at all over the years? Because you are, and I know we've said this a million times, but you just really do, it's really, you have a very clear sense of who you are as a designer, but has your process of how you get there and design collections changed over the years?

Speaker 4:
[84:45] I think that there's two versions of answers here. I think there's a version from before I was in charge, let's say, before I was actually dictating the way of working. So before that, obviously, you work in the way that the house works, and like Dries, I was sketching a lot for Balmain, like I was doing like drapes, and so you kind of like it's different things. But once I started Cis Marjan and then now into Sander Lak, I more than ever before, I am really trying to use the restraints as a creative vehicle. So I'm really trying to see like, okay, I don't have all of these options, and instead of that being a limitation, I actually really wanna make that into something that like pushes me into a direction. So instead of me having all the options in the world, I pick the best thing from what I can find, and then it's my job as a creative to make that into something where nobody would ever see, oh, that really was the third choice of what he really wanted, you know? Like, and it's kind of like that is something that actually creatively has really opened me up because all of a sudden not having always this like anything is possible kind of mentality pushes me a lot more. So that's definitely new, but when it comes to the kind of order of things, I think it's always been color, fabric, and then garment. Like that has kind of always been my thing. I first create a color card, I then find fabrics in those colors or find fabrics that take those colors, or the fabrics are related to the colors that I do, and only then do I have my ingredients to make the meal. So only then am I like, okay, well, then we can make this kind of pantheon. That's also why my work doesn't always have a clear reference because I don't start with a reference because color is abstract. So you already start with something abstract. And that's something that I really like. And I feel like I will probably have a version of that always.

Speaker 1:
[86:43] The color you're wearing right now is so beautiful.

Speaker 4:
[86:48] It's from the new collection. It's like a washed cotton tuxedo shirt. And it's this kind of like really beautiful, like almost like an ostrich egg kind of color, which is really nice.

Speaker 1:
[87:02] You know what I'm realizing? I just got like semi-custom shirts made at Charvet. And the one of them is very similar to that color.

Speaker 4:
[87:12] I know, I was very happy to see my shirt do the tuxedo shirts, because we had it in our collection as well.

Speaker 1:
[87:18] Yes, it's gorgeous. Well, I can't wait to see it in person. I'll see you in June in Paris.

Speaker 4:
[87:26] Yes, please. It'll be the first collection of the second year. So it's gonna be a new narrative.

Speaker 1:
[87:33] I can't wait to hear what city it is, or place.

Speaker 4:
[87:37] Place, you will see, you will see.

Speaker 1:
[87:39] Sander, congratulations. I'm so happy for you, and I'm so glad you're putting work into the world, because people love it, and it feels really good.

Speaker 4:
[87:48] Well, you too, I think you are amazing, and to be on this podcast with you, like, it's great. Oh my God, it's so fun. Are we gonna cry now?

Speaker 1:
[87:57] We might cry. It's been a very emotional day after that Rocko show.

Speaker 4:
[88:01] Yeah, don't look at it anymore, Rocko. Let it go.

Speaker 1:
[88:03] No, no more. This was so fun. Thank you for doing it. Fashion People is a presentation of Audacy in partnership with Puck. The show is produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to Puck co-founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy, producer Maya Tribbett, and director of editorial operations, Gabi Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Audacy, Kelly Turner and Bob Tabador.