transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:02] Hey Small Town Fam, it's Yeardley. I want to remind you that if you want access to bonus episodes and regular episodes a day early and ad free, and our community forum and other behind the scenes goodies, you got to go to smalltowndicks.com/superfam, and then in the top right hand corner, hit that little tab that says join. And then listen to the end of today's episode for a sneak peek at today's new bonus episode. Hey, Small Town fam, it's Yeardley. How are you guys? I hope you're all well, and I hope you're exactly where you wanna be. We have such an interesting case for you today, brought to us by returning guest, retired detective Aaron. You'll recognize Aaron's voice from seasons 16 and 17. He's definitely one of our favorites. So I would describe today's case as quintessential true crime. The circumstances are harrowing, the victim is extraordinarily brave and a great witness, and the suspect is a repeat offender who never should have been let out of prison. And just when you think you know how this case is gonna end, the case gets thrown into jeopardy because of illegal technicality. But that's not the end either, because then karma makes a cameo. And well, you're just gonna have to listen to see what happens next. Here is Your Mine. Hi there, I'm Yeardley.

Speaker 2:
[01:52] I'm Dan. I'm Dave.

Speaker 3:
[01:53] And I'm Paul.

Speaker 1:
[01:54] And this is Small Town Dicks.

Speaker 2:
[01:57] Dave and I are identical twins and retired detectives from Small Town USA.

Speaker 3:
[02:01] And I'm a veteran cold case investigator who helped catch the Golden State Killer using a revolutionary DNA tool.

Speaker 2:
[02:07] Between the three of us, we've investigated thousands of crimes, from petty theft to sexual assault, child abuse to murder. Each case we cover is told by the detective who investigated it, offering a rare personal account of how they solved the crime.

Speaker 3:
[02:21] Names, places, and certain details have been changed to protect the privacy of victims and their families.

Speaker 2:
[02:26] And although we're aware that some of our listeners may be familiar with these cases, we ask you to please join us in continuing to protect the true identities of those involved out of respect for what they've been through. Thank you.

Speaker 1:
[02:45] Today, on Small Town Dicks, my friends, we have most of the usual suspects. We have Detective Dan.

Speaker 2:
[02:53] Hello there.

Speaker 1:
[02:54] Hello you. We have Detective Dave.

Speaker 2:
[02:57] Hello everyone.

Speaker 1:
[02:58] Hello, hello. We do not have the one and only Paul Holes today. Don't worry, he'll be back next week. Sometimes, you know, in the herding of cats, one gets away. But you have the OGs here on the microphone with you today, so you're in excellent hands. And my friends, we are so very lucky and delighted to have returning to the podcast Detective Aaron.

Speaker 4:
[03:24] Hello.

Speaker 1:
[03:25] Hi, Aaron. It's so great to see you again.

Speaker 4:
[03:27] It's great to be seen.

Speaker 1:
[03:28] Thanks so much for joining us. Small Town fam, if you've been listening for more than a minute, you'll remember Aaron from past seasons. He's actually given us three episodes so far, starting with one that we called Dead Weight in season 16. He then went on to give us two more in season 17, whose titles I'm going to put in the show notes because maybe you're driving or walking a dog or walking yourself and you don't have a pen handy. So don't worry. I got you. All of Aaron's episodes are definitely worth listening. So, Aaron, without further ado, please tell us how this case came to you.

Speaker 4:
[04:13] Absolutely. So this case came to me in January of 2017. So January 2017 in the Portland area, it was a really, really cold winter that winter, and we had temperatures dipping below zero. So this case came to me early on a Saturday morning. I was on call. So at the time I was signed as a Major Crimes Detective Homicide and Child Abuse, but we take on call weeks. So the on call weeks meaning that if anything comes up during our off times or off hours, then we're the primary detective that's going to respond out to that. And that's the way this case came to me. It came to me early, about seven o'clock in the morning on a Saturday morning is when my phone rang. And as any officer or detective could understand, the information you get sometimes is very convoluted and it's hard to make heads or tails out of. So the information I got was patrol officers were out at a residence in my city. And in my city, there's a part of the city called Rockwood. And Rockwood is, I would say, it's probably the most dangerous part of the city of Portland. And for our police department, it takes 80% of our resources about 80% of the time. So it's got a very high violent crime rate, high murder rate, that type of stuff. So when this call comes in, it comes in that officers are at a residence and at that residence, they have a man in custody. They're not quite sure what for, but at least burglary. The original report says that just before 7 a.m., a woman comes pounding on the door, the homeowner opens the door, a lady comes barging in, says he's after me, he's chasing me. And the man closes the door, tells the lady to go and hide. This is a stranger to him. And a couple of minutes later, there's somebody banging on the door. And ultimately the guy inside says, hey, I've got a gun, stay out, don't come through the door. The guy outside kicks in the door and comes into the apartment looking for the woman that he's chasing. And that is what we know when the officers call me. They said that the woman is hysterical, she's on her way to the hospital, she's reporting being sexually abused, she's reporting a kidnapping, and her story is all over the place. The young lady we're talking about has some drug addiction issues. She is addicted at the time to methamphetamine as well as heroin. So we're dealing with some under the influence type behavior as well, and it's really hard to make heads or tails as to what we've got. So myself and my partner Detective Dan, we rolled out to the scene. I went to the scene and he went to the office to try to get things going at the office. When I got to the scene, it's exactly what I would expect. This is an upstairs condo apartment unit, front door's obviously been kicked in. The female victim, Lindsay, she has been transported to the hospital and I'm at the scene with the police officers. I speak to the homeowner and he relays the same story. There's not a whole lot of change from what I originally got told and that is good because it means that the story wasn't so convoluted. He essentially wakes up to somebody banging on the door. Normally in this part of town, he said he wouldn't open the door to people because it's a dangerous area, but he heard a female voice. When he opened the door, she came barging in, reports that she's being chased, closes the door and a couple of minutes later, an unknown man is kicking the door down.

Speaker 1:
[07:32] And Aaron, this homeowner, he doesn't actually know Lindsay. This is just the first door Lindsay happens upon, is that so?

Speaker 4:
[07:40] That is correct, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[07:41] Okay, and does the homeowner have a name?

Speaker 4:
[07:44] The homeowner's name is Rick. So Rick says that when the door got kicked open, he was looking up and he saw a huge man standing in the doorway. He said, this man was broad at the shoulder, narrow at the waist, physically fit, muscular. And he said he was scared. He said he told the guy not to come in, that he had a gun, he would shoot him. Rick said that he pointed the gun at the suspect. And at that time, the suspect came in, the suspect hit Rick in the face. And that's about the time the police showed up. So that's the information that we have.

Speaker 2:
[08:16] That situation, Rick is fully within his rights to handle that with the gun in his hand.

Speaker 4:
[08:22] Yeah, fully within his rights.

Speaker 1:
[08:24] Aaron, how old is Rick?

Speaker 4:
[08:26] Rick is about 50 years old.

Speaker 1:
[08:28] And what's the suspect's name?

Speaker 4:
[08:31] Suspect's name is Andrew.

Speaker 1:
[08:32] Andrew, it's easy for Andrew to get one over on Rick. I mean, it's so discombobulating. Somebody fucking breaks in your door after this strange woman goes, let me in.

Speaker 4:
[08:43] Yeah, Rick was pretty shook up that morning. I left a team there, processing that scene, but I went outside and I spoke to Andrew in the car. Andrew is a mid 20 year old white male who is physically fit. He is the star football player, the jock on the football team, six pack, full of muscles. There's a reason why he's full of muscles. We'll get to that in a minute, but he's full of muscles and he's the kid that never got past about 13 years old mentally. He's kind of stuck in that juvenile, I'm the coolest kid in town state. That's what I'm dealing with, but I don't want to talk to Andrew too much right now because I don't have a lot of facts about the case. I want to dig into the case more. Ultimately, Andrew is the last person I want to talk to once I put all the other pieces together. From that point, we know we have at least burglary on Andrew for breaking into Rick's apartment. I ask the patrol officers take him back to the office and basically put him on ice. Put him in the holding cell until we can make sense or tails as to what we're dealing with in this situation. By the time I got back to the office, Lindsay had returned from the hospital and she was there waiting for me. So now I get to speak to the female victim, Lindsay, in this case. And this is what I learned. So Lindsay says, I met Andrew about six months ago. We dated for about four or five months. Andrew became very close to my family. He was paying the bills for my family. He was paying my sister to go to school. He was taking care of us and everybody loves him. She says, I loved him, but he was very violent sexually with me. And that became a point of contention where I couldn't take it anymore. And I broke up with him. She said, but when I broke up with him, that upset him and he refused to let me go and he stalked me. She said about six or seven days ago, I was able to get away from his house and he lives here in Rockwood. Lindsay says, she went to hide at a friend's house, but Andrew knocked on the door late at night and asked Lindsay to go outside to the car to speak with him. Lindsay says she and Andrew went out to the car. And as soon as Lindsay got in Andrew's car, he started to back up down to the end of this dead end road. Lindsay says that that scared her because Andrew would have no reason to back up other than not wanting to be seen by anybody looking out of the house. So Lindsay and Andrew start talking and Andrew tells Lindsay that he wants her back and he wants his relationship. Lindsay says this is clearly over and Andrew starts to drive away. When Andrew starts to drive away, Lindsay reaches for the door handle but realizes the door handle has been taken off of the inside of the car. So there's no door handle and there's no window crank. This is an older car with a window crank. So Lindsay is stuck in Andrew's car as Andrew starts to speed away. Lindsay says that Andrew drives them all over the Portland Metropolitan Area down a bunch of back roads. Lindsay says that Andrew is driving at a high rate of speed. He's beating her up as he's driving. And he's saying that if I can't have you, nobody will. And Andrew is telling Lindsay that he's going to drive both of them either into a bridge embankment or a tree or a telephone pole. He is going to kill both of them. Lindsay says this goes on for a couple of hours. And then finally, Andrew brings Lindsay to an unknown house in the middle of nowhere. Lindsay's beat up. She's upset. She doesn't know where she is, but she knows she's at a home and it feels like it's in the middle of the woods. Lindsay says Andrew takes her inside and takes her to the basement of this house. And Lindsay describes the basement. She describes the basement as having avocado colored walls, a brown sectional sofa and that Andrew had taken the cushions off of that sectional sofa and laid them on the floor as a makeshift mattress. Lindsay said that Andrew forced her onto that bedding and sexually assaulted her. Lindsay says that by this time, it's well into the middle of the night. And after being sexually assaulted, he takes her outside. And at this time, temperatures are nearing zero degrees. Lindsay says that Andrew walks her across the property and puts her into what she believes is a barn in the middle of the property. Lindsay says that Andrew had inside of this large barn, which was dilapidated and no longer being used, there was a smaller room constructed in the corner of this barn. And Lindsay says that Andrew took her in there and there were some eye bolts in the wall with rope on it. And Andrew tied Lindsay up to this rope, to this wall. There was a mattress inside of this room and Andrew left her there. Lindsay says that over the next three days, Andrew would come down and bring her food after breakfast leftovers and brought her a blanket so she could wrap up in this blanket. And Lindsay says she spent the most of the three days alone inside of this room, except for when he would either feed her or come down or sexually abuse her or assault her. She said that on about the third day, Andrew came down, it was the middle of the day, and said, hey, I need to go to my probation office in Salem and I need to take you with me because if I don't take you with me, nobody knows that you're here. And if I go to jail, I can't just leave you here tied to the wall and attended. So Andrew brings Lindsay some clothes and she puts them on. Lindsay tells me that these are not her clothes. She doesn't know where the clothes came from, but they're definitely not hers. Lindsay said that Andrew walked her to the car, put her in his car, and Andrew then drove Lindsay down to Salem, Oregon out of the Portland metropolitan area.

Speaker 1:
[14:41] And about how far is that?

Speaker 4:
[14:43] It's about an hour drive from where they were.

Speaker 1:
[14:46] Aaron, how old is Lindsay?

Speaker 4:
[14:49] Lindsay is 25 at the time, so she's probably 32, 33 now.

Speaker 1:
[14:53] And Andrew was about that age, too, at the time this case came to you.

Speaker 4:
[14:58] That is correct.

Speaker 2:
[14:59] And Aaron, what is Andrew on probation for?

Speaker 4:
[15:03] That is a great question. He's on probation for rape in the first degree. So Andrew has been out of jail about six months when he meets Lindsay. He's out, he's on probation. So all those muscles and that six pack is all prison strong. So that's how he got that.

Speaker 2:
[15:19] I feel like the rehabilitative efforts of the Department of Corrections did not take in this situation.

Speaker 1:
[15:26] It didn't take with Andrew.

Speaker 4:
[15:28] It's going to get worse before it gets better. It will.

Speaker 2:
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Speaker 4:
[17:13] So, Andrew and Lindsay go down to Salem. On the way down, Andrew tells Lindsay, don't think about escaping, don't think about running away, don't think about disclosing what's going on, because I know where your family lives. They're very close to me, and I could very easily go and kill them. So, with this information, Lindsay goes to the probation office and sits in the car while Andrew goes inside and checks in. As luck would have it, Andrew doesn't get arrested, and he goes back to the car. Andrew then says, you know what? I need to stop at Walmart, so let's go to Walmart. We'll go shopping together. But again, please don't tell anybody, because I'll kill your family. So, Andrew and Lindsay go to Walmart, and they walk around the store. She says they shop, they get some household items, and then they get back in the car and they drive back to the Portland area back to this barn, if you will. She says she's tied back up, and Lindsay spends the next night in the barn. Now, we're going to wake up to Saturday morning. This brings us to the morning of the incident, early morning of the incident. So, Lindsay tells Andrew, hey, I'm dope sick, I need some methadone, and I need to go to a clinic. Andrew trusts Lindsay at this point, because Lindsay has had multiple opportunities to escape, but hasn't. So, Andrew says, all right, let's go. So, Andrew saddles her up in the car, and Andrew takes Lindsay to the local methadone clinic in the heart of Rockwood.

Speaker 1:
[18:42] Can I ask you a question, Aaron?

Speaker 4:
[18:43] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[18:44] If Lindsay is addicted to methamphetamine, as well as heroin, is methadone a remedy for both of those drugs?

Speaker 4:
[18:55] So, methadone is an opiate. So, methadone is the fix for the heroin side of it. But oftentimes, people will use both drugs, and they'll use them to counterbalance. Back in the day, it was a speed ball. You're taking cocaine, and you're taking an up and downer, and you kind of find your balance in the middle.

Speaker 1:
[19:11] I see.

Speaker 4:
[19:12] So, Lindsay had the foresight to realize that Andrew could not go into the medical facility with her, and that would put some separation between the two of them. So, whether she was actually trying to get her fix, or whether she was trying to set up an opportunity to escape, either way, Andrew took Lindsay to the methadone clinic. So, Andrew and Lindsay get to the methadone clinic, and Andrew has to wait in the lobby, and Lindsay goes back to see her provider. When Lindsay is in the back to see her provider, she asks to go use the restroom, and when she goes, Lindsay actually runs out the back door of the methadone clinic.

Speaker 1:
[19:49] I love her.

Speaker 4:
[19:50] So, this is shortly before 7 a.m. on Saturday when we got the call. So, Lindsay runs out the back door. Andrew realizes something's amiss, and looks outside and sees her running across this open field towards some apartments, so he gives chase. No, he's in pursuit. Andrew's in pursuit of Lindsay. Lindsay makes it to the Stranger's House first, goes inside, closes the door. Andrew steps behind, kicks the door open, and that's how the story started. So, that's what we've got going on, and that's what Lindsay tells me during this interview.

Speaker 2:
[20:21] So, Yeardley, I know you're like, hey, I love this girl when she books out the back. The safest place for Lindsay to be was in that clinic. This is like the addict behavior that we see where they're just not thinking straight, and they don't process information like you or I do in our sober state of mind. So, the most rational thing for her is to book it out the back when really she was safest just being in that office with the doctor and the medical staff there. She's in an office full of mandatory reporters. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[20:51] You're right. You're absolutely right. Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[20:53] That was the safest place for Lindsay to be. She chose to escape.

Speaker 1:
[20:57] So, Aaron, Lindsay escapes from Andrew, and she goes to this apartment, bangs on the door, the guy lets her in, then Andrew shows up, kicks the door in, and Rick, the homeowner, has a gun, but he's in his 50s, Andrew is super fit, blah, blah, blah, overcomes Rick. How much time passes in that assault on Rick before the cops show up and get Andrew in handcuffs? Because it seems like Andrew is unstoppable.

Speaker 4:
[21:28] It was just a couple of minutes, I would say, two to five minutes is how long it took for the police to get there. When Lindsay came in, she immediately called the police and made that 911 call on the report. There were actually several 911 calls as a result. So the police were in the area. Remember, I said this area takes 80% of our resources, 80% of the time, there was already officers nearby, and they responded in and took care of business.

Speaker 1:
[21:53] I see. So when police officers encounter Andrew in Rick's apartment, he may be going wild, but he hasn't had much time to do any damage, and I'm assuming, like, Lindsay's locked herself in the bathroom or something.

Speaker 4:
[22:05] That is correct, yes.

Speaker 1:
[22:06] Because two minutes can seem like a really long time, I think, if your life is in danger.

Speaker 2:
[22:11] That's a real long time with an armed homeowner and a home invasion burglary. Ten feet inside that door. Andrew covering ten feet is like covering a mile if I had a gun in my hand. Like, you made bad decisions and now you're going to pay for it. Andrew got lucky with Rick.

Speaker 4:
[22:28] So with this information that I've got from Lindsey, I'm a little bit more armed and prepared to go talk to Andrew and get some of his information. But we want to put a good story. You know, this sounds convoluted. And one of the things that law enforcement we hear, we hear these convoluted stories and we have to try to put the pieces of the puzzle together because sometimes they sound like they're made up and they sound fiction. They sound like they're off the movies. I'm sure there's a movie made out there about somebody being tied up in a bar for three days, it just happens. So now we gotta try to put some physical evidence with that. I need to try to identify where this house was that Andrew took Lindsay to. So one of the things that Andrew told Lindsay just prior to the drive to Salem was my parents don't know you're here.

Speaker 1:
[23:15] Why on earth would you say that if you weren't inferring that my parents are nearby?

Speaker 4:
[23:22] You know, I think that morning when Andrew told Lindsay, you know, my parents don't know you're here, Andrew is getting a surprise call for a surprise visit to his probation officer and he's made himself a tangled web of lies and deceit. He has somebody tied up literally in the barn and he needs to do something. So he is just reacting. This isn't something he forethought. This is a reactionary phrase and statement that he made to Lindsay. And he says, let's get our shit together. Parents don't know you're here, you're coming with me. That's the kind of comment. But Lindsay was smart enough to pick it up and hear it and remember it.

Speaker 1:
[23:59] I feel like perhaps that gave law enforcement sort of a place to start, right?

Speaker 4:
[24:05] Absolutely. That is definitely what we heard and how we started this. And one of the first things we did in that investigative process was identify the house. And we did it fairly quickly and it was based off that one comment.

Speaker 1:
[24:17] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[24:18] So we started looking for a parent's house. And as luck would have it, we found Andrew's parent's house out in the middle of nowhere, in a remote part of the neighboring county. And when we looked at the Google Earth image, we could see it looked like an outbuilding on that same property. So now we have somewhere to start. My partner and I take Lindsay and we drive out to Andrew's parent's house. And as we pass by, we don't mention it to her. We just drive through the area and she's like, that's it. That's the house right there. So now we have a place that we can go and serve a search warrant on.

Speaker 2:
[24:52] I mean, that's like a perfect field show up, you know, where the victim is leading you to the location and giving you details rather than you feeding them details. When you have a defense attorney at trial, how did you find this house? And you put that in front of them. How do you argue with that? We didn't say a word. She told us. She told us where it was. It's a brilliant move.

Speaker 4:
[25:12] Yeah, in this case, you know, we were having general conversation about other stuff, completely non-case related. And she broke that conversation to excitedly point out, that's it, that's the house right there. And one of the things that we have to look at as detectives is we're asking questions today and making strategic moves today to close the loophole 10 years down the road when this finally goes to trial. Because there's going to be a lawyer out there somewhere whose job is not to present facts, it's to create confusion. And we need to be able to put the facts together today, ask the right questions and pave the way to a successful prosecution tomorrow. And that's what we were doing when we do this field show up. General Conversation, Lindsay excitedly points out the only house in the middle of nowhere that happens to look just like the place she was held captive.

Speaker 2:
[26:00] Aaron, how far is this outbuilding slash barn from the main residence?

Speaker 4:
[26:05] About 150 yards.

Speaker 2:
[26:07] So I was thinking, Lindsay is going to be screaming at the times that Andrew is not right in her presence. So he has to have her far enough away that nobody can hear. And, you know, it gives you some insight into where Andrew was with this crime, is Andrew's got his other life going to a PO meeting, all these things, but he has to have as much control as possible. And I think that explains away how we end up out in this rural property.

Speaker 4:
[26:35] You know, Dave, I completely agree. And one of the things that we really considered and thought about when we were looking through this case, we're going to find everything that Lindsay explained and described. And we'll go ahead and go there now. So we end up drafting that search warrant for that property, and we end up partnering with a lot of other law enforcement agencies because we are in a neighboring county. It needs to be signed by a judge in another county with reciprocity between them and our city. So we're doing a bunch of logistics in the background. We have a team writing search warrants, and ultimately we go and we serve that search warrant. And we really have to think about the details that Lindsey gave me during that interview. Lindsey says, the sexual assault occurred in the basement. There's brown cushions on the floor. I don't have my clothes. I was wearing tall boots. He walked me outside in the cold. I could feel the cold on the snow and on my feet. And I believe that I could feel like thorny bushes, but I don't know if it was just the freezing ice chunks of snow or if it was actual thorns. We walked a long ways in the cold and the wind until we got to this barn. In the barn, I'm tied up. There's an eye bolt on the wall. There's a mattress. But in the cracks where the walls are formed and the two by fours lays across the bottom of the concrete, there's a whole bunch of spider eggs and spider nests in all of those cracks. And she said, I remember just being disgusted thinking that the spiders would get me. So we're thinking about this stuff as we go in. And this is all the stuff that we're looking for in that search warrant. When we go to the house and we serve that search warrant, we find everything she described from the avocado walls, the makeshift bed, we find all of her clothes, we find her boots, we go out to the barn, we find the rope, we find the eyeball. More specifically, we find all the spider eggs. There are thousands of spider eggs and nests along the walls of this constructed room inside of this barn. The pathway between the house and the barn is a downhill slope. It's frozen over with snow and ice, but you have to walk right through the middle of a bunch of blackberry bushes. So what Lindsay was describing on her feet were the thorns from dead fallen blackberry bushes. We were able to collect all of that physical evidence. One of the things that we found at the scene of the sexual assault was a pink towel. That pink towel is what she described as being used to clean up after the sex act. So we were able to send that off to the lab and immediately we get a quick response that there was seminal fluid on that, which ties it together. With all of this information and with the injuries that Lindsey had on her body, she was covered in bruises from head to toe, control marks around the wrists, control marks around the ankles, linear bruising across the ankles that is consistent with the ligature or the rope. With all of this information, we felt like we had enough to arrest Andrew on all of the charges and all of the things that Lindsey was describing. So that's exactly what we did. When I went to interview Andrew, Andrew had been through the system and was not going to talk to me. So Andrew politely told me to piss off and he had nothing to say to me. So that started the trial process and the court process. About a year and a half later, we went to trial on this.

Speaker 2:
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Speaker 1:
[31:22] Is that Andrew's parents' house?

Speaker 4:
[31:24] It is, yeah, that's Andrew's mom and dad's house. And Andrew's mom and dad and family were very, very supportive of Andrew. When we got there that morning, they're like, there's been no woman here, we don't want you talking about, you got the wrong people.

Speaker 1:
[31:37] The parents were home when Andrew's bringing Lindsay to the basement.

Speaker 4:
[31:41] Correct, parents were home. And the parents were home for the three days that Lindsay was trapped out in their barn. But the parents did not know about this. When we got there and knocked the door, the parents said, there's been no woman here. Andrew lives here, but I don't know what you're talking about. There's been no woman. You guys have the wrong place.

Speaker 2:
[31:58] So Aaron, there's a difference that we run into where you have people who are oblivious, dumbfounded, surprised that you're there and they don't have any idea of what you're talking about. And then you have parents that you run into, friends that you show up at a house and they're just not cooperative. There's a little attitude there. There are other things. Which way would you describe Andrew's parents in this situation?

Speaker 4:
[32:26] Dan, that's a great question. I would say that they were a little of both. I think they were completely dumbfounded that we were there and had no idea what we're talking about. I truly believe Andrew's parents had no idea that the crimes had been committed underneath their nose over the past 72 hours.

Speaker 2:
[32:44] I'm just thinking about how many times Andrew's parents have had the cops come out to the property and knock on their door for some bullshit that Andrew was doing. And so this is the 20th time, and they're like, more bullshit. People that have frequent contacts with the police build up some calluses when it comes to dealing with the police. So this is kind of how I picture as some of the most wanted, where Dan and I worked, and you go out to their parents' house. They're cool-ish, but they're not going to give their son up, and they're tired of the police coming out to their house and harassing them. So I see how you can get both ways, both types of cooperation.

Speaker 1:
[33:24] But Andrew is on parole for a very serious crime, for rape, so surely they know that. So you were going to say, Aaron, like, yes, they were surprised, but... Dot, dot, dot.

Speaker 4:
[33:39] They are very supportive of their son, and they believe their son can do no wrong. They believe their son is the second coming of Christ and walks on water. And as a result of that, it made it very difficult for them to talk to us or deal with us. They definitely wouldn't provide any information. They were uncooperative with the investigation. You know, they had to be removed from the house so we could process a search warrant. And they didn't like that. And they remained that way through the entire investigation to the point where during trial, dad and brother got kicked out of the courtroom for being unruly by the judge and banned from the courthouse. So they are not nice people, I guess.

Speaker 2:
[34:21] Yeah. Going back to Lindsay, Lindsay is an outstanding witness.

Speaker 4:
[34:26] Lindsay's great.

Speaker 2:
[34:27] When Aaron's talking about details for the search warrant, sometimes we'll get a disclosure where it's like, yeah, I was kidnapped and I was taken out to this property. And then he drove me an hour south of where we were. And then we came back and there's really no detail detail. Lindsay's giving sensory details that can be corroborated. It's cold, there's snow on the ground, there's thorns. There's all these things that Lindsay is perceiving that a detective can come back and take pictures and show it to a jury. She's a great witness to have all that detail just stowed away and to be able to recall it in an organized manner. She's a blessing to this case. Sometimes you don't get that kind of information from a victim because they're either in shock, sometimes they kind of want to cooperate with the police, but don't want to be known as a snitch. So you have all these dynamics that are working against you.

Speaker 4:
[35:22] Yeah, Dave, you're completely right. Lindsay, in this case, you provided so much detailed information. One, when we were there, we as police, when the police were there serving the search warrants, there was no doubt we were in the right place. And then all of that information was able to come out in trial, which is very clear and convincing to a jury. When you have a jury listening to the facts of the case and what the victim, in this case, Lindsay, is describing, and then the police go out and find exactly everything to a T, that paints a very clear picture. And as we know, on the sexual assault side of things, the number one argument is going to be consent. In this case, I believe that consent, we dealt with that based on the totality of the circumstances of the barn and the ligatures and tying up and the one single blanket. Even in a consensual relationship, I don't care how kinky you are, that's not even in the rules of the game, to be tied up at zero degrees outside to freeze your ass off for three days, only to have the occasional quote unquote consensual sexual act. That doesn't even make sense, and the jury was able to see through that pretty clearly.

Speaker 2:
[36:30] Yeah, most people don't have a Buffalo Bill Silence of the Lambs fantasy.

Speaker 4:
[36:35] Exactly, exactly.

Speaker 1:
[36:37] So Aaron, what you're saying about consent is there was this concern on the prosecution side that the defense would argue the whole thing, the whole scenario, the whole play was consensual and Lindsay was into it because she had two opportunities when she was in the car with Aaron, once at parole and once at Walmart, where she didn't actually get out of the car. Now to me, I'm like, well, he threatened to kill her family and Lindsay was very much under his thumb at that point. And I fully believe that Lindsay believed Andrew, but I'm guessing defense would still use that as a no, no, it was all copacetic. Everybody was on board.

Speaker 4:
[37:19] That is correct. And you hit the nail on the head, Yeardley, there's a couple of things on the consent. So the first thing in a sex crime, a rape, a sexual assault case, we always have to overcome the consent. Is this a consensual act between two consenting parties or not? And sometimes there's clear and convincing evidence that says that there is, other times it can be a little bit more gray and a little bit more questionable. In this case, if you look at the totality of circumstances related to the crime scene, this looks like a forced sexual act and everything that Lindsay is describing. But then you're absolutely right. One of the big things that came up during trial were the two times that Lindsay could have escaped at the probation office and at Walmart. We got this case at 7 o'clock on Saturday morning. We worked about 36 hours straight and had this cave wrapped up. During that 36 hour period, we were able to pull video up and down the I-5 corridor that showed Andrew's vehicle traveling to and from just like Lindsay said it would be. We pulled video from the probation office that shows Andrew going in and Lindsay in the car, in the passenger seat. We pulled video from Walmart that shows the two of them arriving, entering into the Walmart, shopping and exiting together. So we were able to corroborate a lot of what Lindsay was saying in those first 36 hours that just really kind of sealed the deal on this case. And all of that stuff came up in trial. But the two big things that really hung us up on the defense side was her opportunities to escape. So I had to take an opportunity during the trial to explain the domestic violence cycle. The, I love you, I get beat, I hate you, you're the only person I have because you've eliminated all my other friends and family, so I have to love you again, and the cycle starts over. The other thing that I had to talk about during testimony was duress and delayed report, why somebody might not report. And that's exactly what you were saying, Yeardley. Lindsay was scared that Andrew was going to go back and kill her family. So therefore she would rather sacrifice herself than sacrifice her family or point danger in the direction of her mom and dad and sister and everybody else. So these are the things that I had to describe during the trial process. During the trial process, I expected some challenge from the defense attorney more so than I got, quite frankly. The defense attorney asked me some questions, would refer to my very lengthy transcript of the interview, but would point me to the right page, the section that he wanted me to take a look at. I would look at it, I answered the questions. I think there was actually 12 questions that I answered in this case. And then I was off the stand. This went to the jury, and ultimately the jury convicted on all of the counts, except for one. I can't remember what the one count was, but it was a nothing. It was something the prosecutor added on there. It's kind of a freebie. And that one went away, but all the major counts, the kidnapping, the rape, the sexual abuse, assault, all of that stuff he was convicted of during that trial process.

Speaker 1:
[40:29] What kind of sentence does Andrew get?

Speaker 4:
[40:32] I believe Andrew got an 18-year sentence on this case, but about three years after this case was sentenced, the case got overturned on appeals. So Andrew got out of jail.

Speaker 1:
[40:44] What?

Speaker 4:
[40:44] And the issue on the appeal was all that testimony that I gave about domestic violence and duress and the domestic violence cycle and delayed report. While all of it was accurate and true, the prosecution failed to swear me in as an expert witness. So therefore, and I see some nodding of heads. So therefore, if I'm not sworn in as an expert witness, and they're considering that expert testimony, it's like the testimony never happened. So without that chunk of testimony, this case likely would have not been found as a guilty. So therefore, the case was overturned on appeals, and Andrew got out and returned to the community.

Speaker 1:
[41:40] Oh my god, okay, first of all, I think it's a stretch that the whole case would have fallen apart without that testimony, being tied up. You have so much physical evidence, it seems to me like a no-brainer, but I understand that, as I always say, all of the dominoes need to line up perfectly in order for justice to be served. So, I don't understand. When you're up on the stand testifying as Detective Aaron, you are introduced as that. As I'm the investigating officer, I'm Detective Aaron. Do they then have to swear you in separately as an expert witness to this domestic violence piece?

Speaker 2:
[42:21] They have to qualify you.

Speaker 4:
[42:23] Yeah, they have to qualify you. There's a qualification process where they dig deeper into your background, your history. Prosecution presents their case. Defense has a right to challenge you during that qualification process. And if all the stars line up and everybody says, okay, he's qualified to speak about this, then you're sworn in as an expert in that court. And that's the way that it works. I have been sworn in as an expert witness in other fields and other things, but this case, on this day, we just didn't go through that process.

Speaker 1:
[42:52] And does that process happen at trial or does it happen before the jury sits down?

Speaker 4:
[42:58] It can happen either way, but it's not going to happen in front of the jury. The jury would be excused in a trial process.

Speaker 1:
[43:03] I see.

Speaker 2:
[43:04] For the courts, they're ignoring just as a detective, working these types of cases. When you have this type of experience, there's no piece of paper somebody can give me and go, you're a qualified domestic violence investigator. Like you know what you're doing or you don't. So in this case, you ask a detective who's worked hundreds of these types of cases throughout patrol and being a detective, what's your experience? But you didn't do the voir dire process and didn't do the qualification as an expert. However, we still got a detective who's like, yeah, I've worked hundreds of these and this is generally how it goes. There's a common sense factor to that, which I think you're resonating with Yeardley. Like Aaron doesn't know what he's talking about, which we all are going, yeah, he does know what he's talking about. But in the court's eyes, you got to go through that check mark process and check all the boxes. So you qualify this person as a quote expert. I think detectives look at it and they're like, well, I mean, you don't need to shoot me to tell me it hurts. Like I know it hurts.

Speaker 4:
[44:08] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[44:10] That's well said.

Speaker 4:
[44:11] Exactly.

Speaker 1:
[44:11] And also Andrew is released. Now you have a very dangerous man back on the street and I'm assuming Lindsay is just trying to live her life and she's still around and probably like, Oh shit.

Speaker 4:
[44:24] Yeah, exactly. Lindsay's out living her life. Lindsay's actually had a child at this point and has cleaned up and is living a better lifestyle. While Andrew gets out of jail, he is not living a better lifestyle and continues his life of crime. Andrew's out of jail about six months or so and he goes to my city and files a lawsuit against me and the city for unlawful imprisonment. So, I don't even get notified of that. And the next day, Andrew finds himself drunk in the street, trying to cause fights with people. And when nobody would fight him, he tried to carjack an Uber. And when he tried to carjack the Uber, the passenger in the Uber, a nice little old lady, was armed and shot and killed Andrew during the carjacking process. So therefore, my lawsuit was cleared exceptional. Not gonna happen. And Andrew is in a better place, hopefully.

Speaker 2:
[45:28] And he never got convicted of these acts.

Speaker 4:
[45:31] Never got convicted.

Speaker 2:
[45:32] Yeah, and Andrew also ran into somebody who was tired of his shit.

Speaker 1:
[45:36] Yep. Yeah. But wow. So when Andrew gets released from prison on this appeal, I'm assuming the prosecution was gearing up to try him again?

Speaker 4:
[45:47] That is correct. Lindsay was on board with another trial process. She was willing to go back. Everybody was gonna go back. We were gonna repeat round one, but with expert testimony at the time. But we didn't get there because Andrew found himself in another set of circumstances.

Speaker 2:
[46:03] Aaron, do you remember where you were, what you were doing when you got the news about Andrew's untimely demise?

Speaker 4:
[46:11] I do. Yeah. By the time I got that news, I was out of law enforcement, retired out, PTSD, and I was keeping in touch with my partner. As I would see these murders continue to come out, continue to come out, sometimes she would talk to me about him, sometimes she wouldn't. But my partner reached out to me and said, Hey, you remember Andrew, he's involved in one of our current cases, what can you tell me about him and his family? So I started telling her. And then it was at that point, I realized Andrew had met his demise and the circumstances surrounding his untimely death. And to be quite frank, I wasn't surprised.

Speaker 2:
[46:48] Yeah, self-inflicted behavior that leads to Andrew meeting an old lady with a hand cannon.

Speaker 4:
[46:55] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[46:55] I'm curious about during trial, you had mentioned that Andrew's father and brother had been kicked out of the courtroom. Can you describe what was going on in there?

Speaker 4:
[47:05] Yeah. So Andrew's father and brother, every time that something would be said in the courtroom that was contrary to Andrew being the second coming of Christ, they would explode with emotion and scoffing and talking out loud. The judge asked them to quiet down several times. They failed to comply and ultimately was not only kicked out of the courtroom, but kicked out of the courthouse. They were just problems for us. And it was the same way during the death investigation that ensued. They were problematic in that as well. It's everybody else's fault. Andrew was a perfect son and a perfect young man, and the world has painted him into this terrible picture in this dark light. The family just wasn't seeing the reality. Earlier I said, it's like the 13 year old kid, they got stuck in adolescence. I believe his parents are still seeing Andrew as that star football player, score on the touchdowns. And in their mind, he will always be that person.

Speaker 2:
[48:10] Nice work, Aaron.

Speaker 1:
[48:11] Great work, as always.

Speaker 4:
[48:13] Thank you guys.

Speaker 2:
[48:13] Aaron, can you tell our listeners where they can find your podcast and kind of what subjects you're covering?

Speaker 4:
[48:19] Yeah, totally. So my podcast is on all streaming platforms. It's called Murders to Music. And what I describe is I describe life of law enforcement into the corporate world, into the transition out. You know, one of the things that I've always done is I've always been a musician. I've played music and I've DJed and I've entertained and sang since I was 13 years old. And being a law enforcement officer, that was always the thread that kind of kept me grounded and sane, but I never really had time to pursue it fully. So coming out of law enforcement, now that's what I do a lot. I mean, I do a lot of music. I do a lot of entertaining. What I learned in law enforcement allowed me to use my skills and attention to detail to help people on their worst day and now I can help them on their best day. And that is what this podcast is about. And I attack it and present it in such a way where you don't have to be a copper musician to get something out of it. But I think anybody listening to this right now can understand what an identity crisis is. And if you lose your identity and all of a sudden, you know, you were somebody yesterday and today, you can't go back to that same job and you lose that identity and you crumble. So I present it in such a way that anybody can understand and get something either educational, entertaining or valuable from the podcast.

Speaker 1:
[49:33] That's great.

Speaker 2:
[49:34] Awesome.

Speaker 1:
[49:34] That's amazing. We're so happy to see you, Aaron. Thank you again for sitting down with us. It's always a delight.

Speaker 4:
[49:41] Thank you so much, Yeardley.

Speaker 1:
[49:45] Now for a sneak peek at today's new bonus episode.

Speaker 3:
[49:50] When you walk into these cooks houses, you find, back in the day, hundreds upon hundreds of these packs of Sudafed, where as they're tweaking on meth, they are frantically picking out all those pills. So one of the things you look for is all these empty blister packs of Sudafed in order to establish, okay, they've been going around to all the stores and snatching up all the Sudafed.

Speaker 1:
[50:16] To listen to today's bonus episode and access hundreds more, go to smalltowndicks.com/superfam and hit that little join button. Small Town Dicks was created by Detectives Dan and Dave. The podcast is produced by Jessica Halstead and me, Yeardley Smith. Our senior editor is Soaring Basion and our editor is Christina Bracamantes. Our associate producers are The Real Nick Smitty and Aaron Gaynor. Logan Heftel is our production manager. Our books are Cooked and Cats Wrangled by Ben Cornwell. And our social media maven is Monica Scott. It would make our day if you became a member of our Small Town fam by following us on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube, at SmallTownDicks. We love hearing from you. Oh, our groovy theme song was composed by John Forrest. Also, if you'd like to support the making of this podcast, go to smalltowndicks.com/superfam and hit that little join button. There, for a small subscription fee, you'll find exclusive content you can't get anywhere else. The transcripts of this podcast are thanks to Speech Docs, and they can be found on our website, smalltowndicks.com. Thank you Speech Docs for this wonderful service. Small Town Dicks is an Audio 99 production. Small Town Fam, thanks for listening. Nobody is better than you.