transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with FanDuel Predict. Predict the spread, total points, and even the game winner. Sign up and get a $25 bonus. Offered by FanDuel Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus. Bonus is non-withdrawable and expires seven days after receipt. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at fanduel.com/predict/bonusdashofferdash terms. The playoffs are here and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with FanDuelPredict. Predict the spread, total points, and even the game winner. Sign up and get a $25 bonus. Offered by FanDuel Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus. Bonus is non-withdrawable and expires seven days after receipt. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. To manage your activity with our consumer protection tool, restrictions apply. See terms at fanduel.com/predict/bonusdashofferdash terms.

Speaker 2:
[01:05] Hello, welcome back to House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson. Joining me today, representing the Baltimore Ravens, it's Mallory Rubin.

Speaker 3:
[01:14] It's draft day, baby. You hyped?

Speaker 2:
[01:16] As you know, it's my favorite day of the year. Yeah? You don't have to get ready if you stay ready, you know?

Speaker 3:
[01:22] Sports show.

Speaker 2:
[01:23] So there we are.

Speaker 3:
[01:24] Sports show.

Speaker 2:
[01:25] We're not here to talk about football though.

Speaker 3:
[01:27] I mean, we'll see.

Speaker 2:
[01:28] We're here to talk about Daredevil.

Speaker 3:
[01:31] That's right.

Speaker 2:
[01:32] The Vampire Lestat trailer and by Mallory's request, the very scary Clayface trailer.

Speaker 3:
[01:39] Yeah, just to check in on an exciting trailer that dropped yesterday.

Speaker 2:
[01:43] Right after this.

Speaker 3:
[01:46] This episode of House of R is presented to you by Target. Calling all trainers. Pokemon is celebrating 30 years and the party is at Target.

Speaker 2:
[01:55] That's right. Pokemon and Target are launching a limited time collection designed for trainers across every era of fandom.

Speaker 3:
[02:01] We're talking over 100 exclusive pieces that you won't find anywhere else. Shirts, water bottles and more.

Speaker 2:
[02:10] The first drop appears in stores May 2nd.

Speaker 3:
[02:13] And online May 3rd before the collection evolves with the second drop on June 6th.

Speaker 2:
[02:19] Explore now at target.com. All right, so before we get into the triple header that we have planned here today, is that something that one would say ever?

Speaker 3:
[02:42] Absolutely, Sports Joe has not left the podcast yet. Why do a double header when you can do a triple header?

Speaker 2:
[02:48] People don't usually do a triple header though, right? It's usually we just cap it in two. Yeah, that's what I thought. Okay, quick programming reminder. So we are just going to be covering, were we seduced by how good the last two episodes of Daredevil were to commit to covering the rest of the season week by week? Maybe, it's possible. But we will be covering this week, next week and then the finale. Mallory will be here next week, so we'll have a sub for her, but she'll be back for the finale. And we have been told that the last two episodes of the season are absolute bangers. So I'm very excited.

Speaker 3:
[03:20] I'm excited too. I'm sad to miss next week. I will be with the fam.

Speaker 2:
[03:23] Yes.

Speaker 3:
[03:26] But I will be with you in spirit as always. And I have no idea what happens in next week's Daredevil, but I will probably send you some Daniel Blake-related text messages as I tend to do.

Speaker 2:
[03:37] There are two shows currently airing that I get real-time text from you about. One is Daredevil and one is Survivor. And the Daredevil ones are actually more Fast and Furious than the Survivor ones, which is pretty interesting. It's a lot of... Survivor 50, eh. Daredevil, very important.

Speaker 3:
[03:54] The Survivor texts are like, we're sending each other screeds and it's like long, deep messages about all of the various thoughts and feelings we're carrying.

Speaker 2:
[04:02] you, Jimmy Fallon, you know what you did.

Speaker 3:
[04:05] We await your apology as well. The Daredevil texts are pretty much exclusively pictures of our televisions.

Speaker 2:
[04:16] The ones I said to you yesterday were like, especially very special because I haven't hung the curtains yet up in my new place. And so there's just like blaring light coming in from the windows. And I was like, if you squint closely, you can see Dex's chest hair. You're welcome. Spoilers for this episode of Daredevil.

Speaker 3:
[04:33] Indeed.

Speaker 2:
[04:33] So we're covering Daredevil.

Speaker 3:
[04:34] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[04:34] We've got another Nolan. We've got a double header on the Nolan pod. We're doing Following and Insomnia.

Speaker 3:
[04:42] I'm really excited.

Speaker 2:
[04:44] There's two lesser known Nolan works, but we watched Following and we really liked it a lot. And there's a lot of really interesting things to say. If you're with us for this Nolan completionist thing we're doing before The Odyssey, I think Following is like a core text.

Speaker 3:
[05:01] Have to check it out.

Speaker 2:
[05:02] Yeah, absolutely. Mall. Yes. Baby.

Speaker 3:
[05:07] Shadow, Lord, Hive, Rise.

Speaker 2:
[05:09] Please keep up with Mall because we have a very special thing planned for the finale, so please do that. Also, we're hoping there's a House of the Dragon trailer this weekend. And if there is, and if indeed there is, some key cast members are going to be at a con. That's right. So we think they're going to drop a trailer, and if there is, we will have a breakdown for you at the top of next week.

Speaker 3:
[05:32] Maybe we'll get a premiere date. That would be exciting.

Speaker 2:
[05:34] That would be helpful for our scheduling. That would be great. So how can folks keep track? I mean, because we've been planning out our year, and our year is going to get really intensive really quickly. So-

Speaker 3:
[05:45] It's House of R season, folks.

Speaker 2:
[05:46] It is our year.

Speaker 3:
[05:47] It has never been-

Speaker 2:
[05:49] It's our era. It's my era. It's such a time to be us, as Lestat would say.

Speaker 3:
[05:53] I mean, it's like it's in general, it's just peak House of R season. But today, especially decks, shirtless, cuffed in bed and a new Lestat trailer. What a time to be you, Joanna Robinson. My goodness.

Speaker 2:
[06:08] With the promise of Mall on the horizon.

Speaker 3:
[06:11] Boy. Before I remind everybody how to follow along, I just wanted to quickly mention my longtime colleague and dear friend, Jordan Kahn, has a new book out this week, a ringer book, American Men. It is so good. I give this the most fervent recommendation. It is fascinating and beautiful, and Jordan is such a gifted and empathetic reporter and storyteller, and this is just like, it is a good time to read a book like this in our world. It is really wonderful, and I will have the pleasure of chatting with Jordan about this beautiful work of journalism on Monday, this coming Monday in Los Angeles, Monday night, book soup. Come hang. Yeah. Come listen to Jordan talk about this book. We would love to see you on Monday.

Speaker 2:
[06:54] I've never been to book soup. Should I come on Monday?

Speaker 3:
[06:55] I've also never been.

Speaker 2:
[06:56] Okay, great. Let's go. You want to come? Yeah, I want to come.

Speaker 3:
[06:59] Fantastic.

Speaker 2:
[06:59] We'll be there and you should be there too. Okay, great.

Speaker 3:
[07:02] How can you follow along?

Speaker 2:
[07:03] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[07:04] Here's what I'd recommend. It's a bold suggestion, but I'm going to throw it out there. Follow the pod.

Speaker 2:
[07:11] What?

Speaker 3:
[07:13] Yeah, I know. Follow the pod. Follow House of R on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch full video episodes of House of R on Spotify, incredible stuff. You can also follow the Ringerverse YouTube channel and the new House of R Instagram and TikTok at House of R pod. Also, you can send us your emails because the inbox is always open. hobbitsanddragons.gmail.com.

Speaker 2:
[07:39] Have I purchased a piece of costuming for one of our pod series later this summer?

Speaker 3:
[07:47] You have.

Speaker 2:
[07:48] Yes. You have. Should you subscribe to our socials to see how that looks?

Speaker 3:
[07:54] You should.

Speaker 2:
[07:54] I'm also curious how that's going to look, so we'll find out when it gets here.

Speaker 3:
[07:57] I've never been more certain of anything in my life. It's going to be majestic.

Speaker 2:
[08:01] It's going to be majestic.

Speaker 3:
[08:02] It's going to be majestic.

Speaker 2:
[08:03] Mallory promises it's going to be majestic. Okay. Spoiler warning.

Speaker 3:
[08:08] Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[08:11] The Lestat trailer.

Speaker 3:
[08:12] That's right.

Speaker 2:
[08:13] Yeah. The Clayface trailer. If you haven't watched them yet, go watch them. And then episode six, Requiem of Daredevil. We did already spoil the Dex's shirtless and you can see some golden chest hair in the diffused lighting.

Speaker 3:
[08:28] Some bruising, some wound staples.

Speaker 2:
[08:32] Some bloody grins.

Speaker 3:
[08:33] Spattering of chest hair. Wonderful.

Speaker 2:
[08:35] It's a lot. So we're gonna start with the trailer, sort of double dip and then we'll get into what we're calling our sort of medium-ish dive into episode six.

Speaker 3:
[08:43] Yeah. Just really an excuse to talk about Ma Blake.

Speaker 2:
[08:48] Yes.

Speaker 3:
[08:48] I can't wait.

Speaker 2:
[08:50] I think she might be her new soulmate, honestly.

Speaker 3:
[08:53] I felt a connection and it was keen.

Speaker 2:
[08:55] If anyone were to run a sort of vitamin pyramid scheme successfully, I think it would be you. I think you could sell me vitamins if you wanted to.

Speaker 3:
[09:03] Interesting.

Speaker 2:
[09:05] Thank you.

Speaker 3:
[09:06] I appreciate it. I feel seen and known and I really understood when BB said to Daniel, like, why don't you want to let my true color shine?

Speaker 2:
[09:19] A woman who drove my car, so like my friend's mom who drove us in Carpalell freshman year of high school, was part of a vitamin pyramid scheme operation, and so like the car was just constantly full of boxes and bottles and like all those sorts of stuff.

Speaker 3:
[09:34] Were there ever any chocolate bars that turned the adults of the town into-

Speaker 2:
[09:40] Bup-Bup-Ban candy. Bup-Bup-Ban candy.

Speaker 3:
[09:45] Libido forward heartthrobs.

Speaker 2:
[09:47] One can only dream. All right. Speaking of libido forward heartthrobs, we're going to start with The Vampire Lestat season three trailer.

Speaker 3:
[09:55] My God. Let's just give you this moment to return to something you said last week when we did our midseason Daredevil check-in which was, and I quote, crying and coming. Was that also your experience watching this trailer?

Speaker 2:
[10:16] When I told the prestige crew that I said that on the camera, they're like, you're very different on that other pod. I was like, I guess I am. I got it, I learned it from watching you. That aside, let's start a new clock. The Cobb Vanth clock is still active, always active.

Speaker 3:
[10:34] What is it?

Speaker 2:
[10:36] Vampire Lestat premieres June 7th, a mere 45 days away.

Speaker 3:
[10:43] Okay, that actually gave me like a little like-

Speaker 2:
[10:45] Anxiety spike?

Speaker 3:
[10:46] Yeah, to know that June 7th is only 45 days away because we have a lot of stuff to cover in June.

Speaker 2:
[10:55] It will likely be running concurrently, you know, for definitely several weeks at least with House of the Dragon.

Speaker 3:
[11:01] Yes, which we know is starting in June, but we don't know when in June.

Speaker 2:
[11:04] So it's going to be-

Speaker 3:
[11:06] Some movies in June.

Speaker 2:
[11:07] House of the Dragon.

Speaker 3:
[11:08] Disclosure Day.

Speaker 2:
[11:09] Talk the Thrones and Vampire Lestat, that's what we're doing and we are doing it-

Speaker 3:
[11:13] I'll be potting a lawn on Toy Story 5.

Speaker 2:
[11:15] Oh, did our producer give me a skeptical eyebrow? Did Arjuna give me a skeptical eyebrow when I said we were covering Vampire Lestat week to week? He did. And I just said, I mean, Arjuna supports us in all our endeavors, but he's like, how many weeks is that going to be? I was like, it doesn't matter. We're doing it. We're doing Vampire Lestat week to week. It's very important to me.

Speaker 3:
[11:34] Will the coffins fit into the set as it's currently constituted? Will we need to roll out certain items of the set? Have you been coordinating with Kevin and Rallith and Jack?

Speaker 2:
[11:48] Whatever our grippy candle aesthetic is from Talk with Thrones, we can carry some of that over into the Vampire Lestat set.

Speaker 3:
[11:55] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[11:57] But should we have just blood running down the walls?

Speaker 3:
[11:59] Probably. What would you prefer?

Speaker 2:
[12:01] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[12:03] Would you prefer the coffins or do you just want to stage, to really lean into the musical rock star element?

Speaker 2:
[12:08] Are you going to show up in leather pants and nothing else? Something to think about. All right.

Speaker 3:
[12:13] I'm not sure I've ever worn leather pants in my life.

Speaker 2:
[12:17] You saw me buy something. Should you buy something? Oh, hey, my messaging is working on. Cinema mode.

Speaker 3:
[12:28] My version of Rizzo just always saying, cinema is me saying to you. Cinema mode. Leather pants. I've never worn leather pants in my life, I don't think. I am a fidgeter, as you know. I'm down for a bit and I'm down for some cosplay and I'm pretty much down to do anything for the podcast. I'm really down to try anything once, just in general.

Speaker 2:
[12:51] I know that.

Speaker 3:
[12:53] I worry that the leather pants would be quite loud. Creaky and squeaky. Yeah, due to how often I move while we pod. What do you think?

Speaker 2:
[13:03] The creak is part of the joy, honestly.

Speaker 3:
[13:05] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[13:06] That's how you know you're alive. This trailer.

Speaker 3:
[13:09] Tell me all your thoughts and feelings.

Speaker 2:
[13:12] Is set to Sam Reed, who plays the vampire Lestat singing a cover of Billy Idol's Dancing with Myself.

Speaker 3:
[13:19] Sensational.

Speaker 2:
[13:20] Invoking Billy Idol with the blonde vampire is very Spike from Buffy core if you guys have not been following along with our Buffy rewatch. That is a very Spike thing to do. But also, I asked my pal, Jenny Owen Youngs, who loves vampires and is a musician herself. She sent me some unprompted texts about the trailer, so I knew she was quite excited and already listened. I was like, why do you think they used this song specifically? Then she did a little medium dive on the lyrics. So I would like to do dramatic reading for you.

Speaker 3:
[13:50] Please.

Speaker 2:
[13:51] Here's one stanza. When there's no one else in sight in the crowded lonely night while I wait so long for my love vibration and I'm dancing with myself. That she says is Lestat to his core.

Speaker 3:
[14:05] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[14:06] This yearner.

Speaker 3:
[14:07] Absolutely.

Speaker 2:
[14:07] Under all the bravado and the violence and the leather pants is this desperately lonely yearning guy. Then if I looked all over the world and there's every type of girl, but your empty eyes seem to pass me by, leave me dancing with myself. She's like, that's Louis. That's Louis not giving Lestat what he needs to fill the void inside of him. So love that for us. This looks so good. This trailer is so good. The show looks so good. I might die right now and then come back to life and then die again later when we talk about Karen's wig on this week's episode of Daredevil. How did you feel about this trailer?

Speaker 3:
[14:48] I thought it was great. I think that basically every single piece of marketing for the season has been just spectacular or dating back to the first images that were released. What a way to draw us in with that torso, my goodness. But yeah, I think the ability to really present this as something that is very specific in its format and structure and tone and lean in and full to the rock star, this seeking of the spotlight and centering and re-centering in the story, both inside of the universe and in a metatextual way in terms of like Lestat receding a bit by necessity and then coming back in such a forceful way at the end. All of that is perfect. And it's just fun and sexy and cool, which also feels perfect. So I am delighted and very excited. I'm really looking forward to talking about it with you every week. And I'm also already excited to rewatch the prior seasons and have an excuse to rewatch the prior seasons.

Speaker 2:
[15:48] By June 7th. You're so excited.

Speaker 3:
[15:52] Yeah. June 7th. You know, plenty of time. It'll be fine.

Speaker 2:
[15:58] So here's one of the voiceovers. We get Daniel Malloy in this trailer, our guy, who says, you witnessed the French Revolution, the electric light, the atomic bomb. Why music? Why now? And that's just set up for us that not only, as all of the trailers have shown us, and if you've read the book, it does this as well, we're getting what's happening in the present timeline with Lestat reacting to the story that Louis and Daniel put out there in the world about him. This is sort of his like temper tantrum. I'm going to tell my own version of the story via song, via, you know, rock god. If I feel rejected by Louis, I'm going to seek out the adoration of millions, if not billions of people to fill that void. All of that's in there. But reminding us how old Lestat is, that he lived through French Revolution, sets up the fact that this takes place in the now and in the past, and that combination of cravats and corsets now and corsets then and all this other stuff, gave me very strong Sophia Coppola, Marie Antoinette vibes. Just that sort of electric pink neon, plus the period aspect of it as well in concert is really exciting. I wrote down a free association of words in the notes here. I wrote down blood, drugs, silk, leather, skin, music, tears, literal heads rolling, cravats. Quick spoiler, skip ahead if you don't want to know. Making out with his mother in the trailer.

Speaker 3:
[17:23] Boy, do they fuck?

Speaker 2:
[17:24] Tune in to find out.

Speaker 3:
[17:25] How very Boardwalk Empire, my goodness.

Speaker 2:
[17:27] How very House of the Dragon.

Speaker 3:
[17:29] Indeed, quite.

Speaker 2:
[17:31] It's incest season, baby.

Speaker 3:
[17:34] It is really incest season here at the House of R. It so often is something to think about.

Speaker 2:
[17:39] Something to consider.

Speaker 3:
[17:40] Yeah, I just am so interested in this and excited about this. And one of the things that was so fun to talk about with you when we gift swapped and I got to watch season two and we got to talk about it briefly was like, you know, in general, I think obviously the way that this story is about, like in some ways, the most intimate acts and relationships and nature of communing. And then in other ways, really about like seeking a way to express yourself, right? Whether it's through those direct relationships or your coven, your following or your theater troupe or whatever. So this feels like a writing, right? Speaking in an interview. Like it's so much about like, what are you trying to communicate and how and who will receive it and how. And so this feels just so totally of a piece with that, but also like a new wrinkle and a new flavor, which is great to be able to like root something in the core aspect of the show and reinvent at the same time. Like that's a perfect balance. But one of the things that I love so much about season two was like this idea of memory and reliability of any narration. And like also just who gets to be the arbiter of the truth. And the fact that the, does the truth have an arbiter or is it inherent, right? And like, I think that this, the story in general and the characters, this adaptation, this television show, with the caliber of the writing and the performances, and like the lyricism of the poetry and the beauty of it, explores that just in such a rich and kind of luscious way. To give that to us again, while Sam Reed is shirtless writhing and singing on stage, like, what?

Speaker 2:
[19:23] There are such obvious surface level hedonistic pleasures to be had in the season. And then there will be, as there were in the first two seasons, just profound emotion and writing because, you know, they do a great job adapting the direct text that Anne Rice wrote, while embellishing in ways that have just proven that they understand the core text and have just a firm mastery of language and theme. And I'm just so excited. One last, for me, one last tidbit from my pal Jenny, who I am hoping will give us sort of like musician insights all season. That would be great. I like made her promise she would watch live so she could help me out. But she, the first text she sent me was there's a shot of Lestat with the microphone sort of like wrapped around his neck and sort of dangling down the back. And she let me know that that's a Sennheiser, that's Steve, it's known as the Stevie Nicks mic. And so she sent like a photo of Stevie Nicks using that mic. And so I just like love that that's a choice that they made. You know, the sort of like, you know, her sort of witchy, you know, rock goddess energy. Also, there's also a shot I texted Jenny. I was like, what's going on here? He has like a synthesizer strapped to his chest. And she's like, that's a very standard like teenage engineering OPXY portable synthesizer. She's like, but they painted it black. She's like, so it's very gothy. And she's like, and I don't know how he plans to play it up there. She's like, it's just like, I was like, does one usually strap it to one's naked glistening chest? She's like, no. And I was like, okay, so stay tuned for musical insights from Jenny Owen Youngs. And for our thrilling, thrilled coverage. Anything else you want to say about this before we get to Clayface?

Speaker 3:
[21:08] Just so happy for you.

Speaker 2:
[21:09] Thank you.

Speaker 3:
[21:10] Just honestly so thrilled for you.

Speaker 2:
[21:11] It is a gift. That's what it feels like to me. All right, October 23rd, speaking of a gift, that's my birthday month and we are getting Clayface. October is usually when we get a Mike Flanagan Netflix series that thrills and chills me. This year, we're getting a Mike Flanagan DC movie. Mike Flanagan wrote a treatment for Clayface that James Gunn found so compelling that Clayface just sort of like hop skipped and jumped over a bunch of other movies that they had planned in this sort of first phase of the new DC reinvention. We got a trailer that Mallory texted and she was like, this looks legitimately scary. I'm quite excited.

Speaker 3:
[21:51] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[21:52] It's just very clear body horror is what's going on here. The film is directed by James Watkins, who directed Speak No Evil, a very creepy James McAvoy film. But Mike Flanagan did write it, so I think it's going to have a lot of that Flanagan. I don't think anyone's doing horror and psychological emotional involvement wrapped together as well as Mike Flanagan, so I'm extremely excited for this. Tom Rhys-Harris is playing Matt Higg and AK Clayface, Naomi Ackie is here, Max Minghella fresh off his industry run.

Speaker 3:
[22:26] Incredible cast.

Speaker 2:
[22:27] One of my favorites, Eddie Marzen is also here. What are your initial reactions to the trailer that you want to share?

Speaker 3:
[22:33] I just thought this trailer was amazing. Truly what a vibe. I do think it looks quite terrifying, so I am slightly worried about my ability to tolerate the horror, but I think I'll be okay. I thought that the mood and the sensibility that the trailer communicated through just its musical choice and the glimpses, and the shrieks, and the cutting of the scalpel, and the blood, and obviously the first glimpse of this, like you said, the body horror of the shape shifting, malleability and moldability of Clayface, to give us our first glimpse of how that will render on screen in the DCU. Just like a really cool, effective first trailer to set the tone and to set the expectation. We have multiple group chats with various colleagues going all the time about film and TV and things that we're excited to cover. People were hyped about this yesterday. There was just unanimous enthusiasm for this, which that's always fun and cool and exciting.

Speaker 2:
[23:39] And rare.

Speaker 3:
[23:40] And it is increasingly rare. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[23:43] Especially for, I would say, a superhero property. Right now, the mood is not very high on this. Something I want to ask you, we both enjoyed Superman. We are cautiously optimistic for Supergirl.

Speaker 3:
[23:54] I am excited for Supergirl, though I am really worried about how much of Supergirl seems to hinge on crypto being imperiled. That's a tough thing for me. It's always been something that James Gunn does. Obviously, we've watched that over the years with Rocket, etc. and all of his pals and Guardians 3. But I don't know that I'll be able to handle that.

Speaker 2:
[24:20] Will you talk to me before you start Beef Season 2?

Speaker 3:
[24:23] Yes, I think I'm going to have to. I'm very excited for Beef Season 2. As you know, I love Season 1, and this Season 2 features some of my genuine faves.

Speaker 2:
[24:30] Charles Melton, your guy.

Speaker 3:
[24:32] My dream casting for Fourth Wing is in Beef. Both of them, actually, but if there's some animal pain coming, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[24:41] Kayleigh Spani or Violet?

Speaker 3:
[24:43] I thought she would have been a great Violet.

Speaker 2:
[24:44] I agree.

Speaker 3:
[24:44] I thought he would have been a great Zayden. That would have been just wonderful. I think a lot of the casting rumors that are out there are also very exciting.

Speaker 2:
[24:51] We'll see.

Speaker 3:
[24:51] Do you see this Yara? There's a special extra little book coming, and she's like, nothing's changing about the timeline for Book 4, but you're going to get another little thing too.

Speaker 2:
[25:03] You're thrilled and excited?

Speaker 3:
[25:06] I await anxiously the new sex scenes.

Speaker 2:
[25:08] This is Sarah J. Maas' move, which is just like, I'm going to write a prequel novella that slides in between these two books.

Speaker 3:
[25:15] It did make me wonder, will this be the equivalent of the fourth court installment?

Speaker 2:
[25:21] A lot of people are like, eh. So we'll see.

Speaker 3:
[25:24] We'll see.

Speaker 2:
[25:24] We'll see. My relationship with Clayface is my perfect Sunday. My relationship with Clayface is, Batman animated series is where I first was introduced to Clayface, and then played extremely well in the Harley Quinn animated series voiced by Alan Tiddick, really funny making fun of him as like, oh, this being like this whole thing. Very good. But both have been, I mean, Clayface in the original Batman, the animated series was like, menacing ish. But this is a much scarier take than we've experienced with Clayface. I love, for me personally, thinking about the idea of Hope Corps being punk rock for Superman, and the like, I'm just a girl in the world, but hopefully not literally that needle drop of Supergirl. Then this extremely dark and horrifying movie, it's exciting to me to watch as James Gunn and Associates shape the DCEU, previously, and they've talked about how they want this to still connect to everything. Peacemaker is obviously connecting to everything and stuff like that. But previously, the ethos as modeled by the MCU was, all of these movies should feel in some degree the same so that when we put them all together, when we mash up these characters in crossover movies, it all sort of tonally and visually makes sense. But what I really like is, I was worried that it would only be the sort of like Elseworlds Robert Pattinson Batman movies or whatever, that would feel markedly different from what the main DC storyline is. But this trailer is serving as something incredibly different in tone and looks from those other two movies. That's exciting to me because what the superhero films should be, and James Gunn has said this in interviews, anyone who is like John Favreau has said this in interviews, is like what the Westerns were for a while when they ruled Hollywood, which is just a vast ocean that you can play in and you can go anywhere you want with different genres. Did Marvel play with that? Yes, to a certain degree. We got like Winter Soldier, which we talk about, it's espionage influences, stuff like that. But fundamentally, they all were sort of meant to be of a piece. And this feels like something very different and very exciting to me. How do you feel about that?

Speaker 3:
[27:59] I agree. And I think already with the first Lanterns trailer that came out, that's another beat of like that. I'm almost like, that feels like it has as much of a connection to what's going to be happening in the DCU as it could to like a Yellowstone show or something, you know?

Speaker 2:
[28:22] That's a jacket-based comment.

Speaker 3:
[28:25] I say that as for me a compliment.

Speaker 2:
[28:28] Oh, I know.

Speaker 3:
[28:28] You mentioned it as a comment.

Speaker 2:
[28:30] I wanted to hear you horrifying.

Speaker 3:
[28:32] But yeah, and I think like when, you know, I'm a fan of James Gunn's approach and his superhero films, I think when he took over the DC Connected Universe, a question that some fans had was like, how much will that be?

Speaker 2:
[28:51] She's like, you fucking doubters.

Speaker 3:
[28:52] No, no, not at all. Cause I think this was like a completely reasonable thing to wonder like how much of this will be about trying to port and inject that very particular approach.

Speaker 2:
[29:06] That guardians sort of energy.

Speaker 3:
[29:07] Yeah, into all of these other things. And like, I think there is obviously some umbrella approach undoubtedly, but to be able in each property to say like, what is this supposed to be? And to empower the people who are making those stories to really shape them creatively is super exciting and cool. And I think like, very much in the spirit of what people love about comic books, right? Where like, the run that you might form a deep connection to or the penciler, the artist, the writer who generated a certain run that you love or reinvented a character or whatever the case may be. Like, part of the joy and like, kind of eternal repeatable resource of comic books is that there's something that is tethered to a core beating heart that you love and care about. And then every time you pick up a new issue or you download a new issue or however you're consuming it now, can feel a little different and that's fun and cool and fresh.

Speaker 2:
[30:07] Or like, deeply dramatically different, you know? And like, yeah, this feels like one of those runs from like, an artist you're so excited about to see what their take on like, Scarlet Witch is going to be or something like that.

Speaker 3:
[30:20] Yeah, so I'm really hyped and it's, I really hope Supergirl is good and I'm very excited about Lanterns and feels like a cool moment for the DCU, which is like, great. That would be cool.

Speaker 2:
[30:33] It's been on the back foot for a while. So I mean, like, I love the Batman and there's, you know, a number of other things that have worked in the past. But, you know, they've been sort of languishing in the shadow of Marvel for so long. We're about to talk about a Marvel TV show that we are intermittently enjoying, you know? But like, it's a little hard out there for Marvel right now and so, you know, this is where we are.

Speaker 3:
[30:54] I can't wait for them to drop that Doomsday trailer. Gotten some different feedback from different people.

Speaker 2:
[30:58] At CinemaCon? Well, it depends entirely who you ask, right? What's the, who's been the highest on it?

Speaker 3:
[31:07] Not the Big Pick crew.

Speaker 2:
[31:08] No, I mean, like, but they never were gonna be.

Speaker 3:
[31:11] Yeah. That's been most of my experiences hearing from them about it. But, you know?

Speaker 2:
[31:18] Sean and Amanda were never gonna be like, Doomsday, can't wait.

Speaker 3:
[31:22] It's possible that Sean would have.

Speaker 2:
[31:24] I don't think for Doomsday. I think for some superhero properties, but I don't think for Doomsday.

Speaker 3:
[31:29] He's hyped for Clayface, though.

Speaker 2:
[31:31] While I Have You.

Speaker 3:
[31:32] Yes. You always have me. Never forget that. You always have me.

Speaker 2:
[31:36] Adria Arjuna has been cast for the second Superman movie.

Speaker 3:
[31:39] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[31:41] She's allegedly playing Maxima. Yeah. But do you agree with me and a lot of the internet that she's actually probably playing Diana Wonder Woman, aka Wonder Woman? Yes. Yeah. I feel like this is, I mean, she might not be, but I think it would be dumb to cast her to play Maxima. If I'm Adria Arjuna coming off of Andor and being as talented and wonderful as she is, I don't, I mean, whatever.

Speaker 3:
[32:09] Shout out Bix, now and always.

Speaker 2:
[32:11] Bix Killeen, we love you. But like, I mean, maybe get your bag. Like if she wants that Maxima money, sure. But like, if I'm her, I'd be like, you know what I deserve? To be Wonder Woman. That's what I deserve.

Speaker 3:
[32:24] Now, it's possible. Some of this is like how much have casting rumors on the Internet incepted us into thinking something is a guarantee, because she was the idea that she was playing Wonder Woman was really out there for a while.

Speaker 2:
[32:35] James Gunn said it before.

Speaker 3:
[32:39] I know. It's like maybe possible that it was always this, but yeah, and I think she would be just wonderful as Wonder Woman. That would be so cool. So that feels likely to me as well, and I would celebrate it enthusiastically. So when will we find out for sure? Who knows? But yeah, I feel like we're in an era right now of casting rumors that feel like just definitely true. You know, it's like Sadie Sink is going to be G-Bray, and we can all pretend for months on end that there's a tiny part of us that doesn't believe that that's true, but there isn't.

Speaker 2:
[33:17] There isn't. I mean, there's a tie to that very sort of plot line in this episode of Daredevil, is there not? So that being said, shall we do Daredevil episode 6?

Speaker 3:
[33:28] Let's check in.

Speaker 2:
[33:29] Okay.

Speaker 4:
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Speaker 5:
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Speaker 2:
[36:12] All right. Episode 6, Requiem. I want to start before we get in, we're just going to hop, skip, jump through this. Check it in. But this is, here she is, Jessica Jones. Disney Plus wanted to make sure you knew that it was like, at least on my thumbnail. I don't know if they do the Netflix thing where they have rotating thumbnails for different things, but mine was just like, same, Jessica Jones is here in this episode, goddammit. So we've been waiting all season for this. Here she is, episode 6, and we've only got two more episodes to go for the season. She was sort of promoted very heavily in this season. So my question to you, I have a couple of questions for you. Since you won't be here next week when I hope we get more Jessica Jones.

Speaker 3:
[36:54] That would be great.

Speaker 2:
[36:55] I just wanted to check in with you on this, was it worth the wait for you? Then maybe some of you're wearing purple, some of your larger Jessica Jones feelings.

Speaker 3:
[37:06] As you know, Kilgrave is always on my mind. I love Jessica Jones. I love Kristen Ritter as Jessica Jones. She is one of my favorite performers and the run of comic book characters on TV that we've gotten. We've talked a lot about Daredevil on Netflix back in the day, and obviously in general, those shows and the run of shows in the Netflix Marvel era, there was some variance, but Jessica Jones, we got a lot because those were 13 episode hour long seasons, and we got three seasons, 13 episodes each. So that was a lot, and so I thought that season one of Jessica Jones was fucking dynamite, really great. Always a thrill to have David Tennant in our lives as well, and I thought it was just such a successful in so many respects introduction in that connected universe to this character. So I was very attached to her, and also like of course, it's like we've got Jane and Breaking Bad. Like it was just a cool moment to be a Kristen Ritter fan. I think that as was often-

Speaker 2:
[38:12] Don't trust the bee in Apartment 23, are you?

Speaker 3:
[38:15] Exactly. I can't claim to be, but I do recall the commercials and the branding for the show. I think as was often the case with those Netflix shows, the quality varied over time, but I don't think her success as a character varied inside of the show. Even when the show around her was not as capable of a vehicle, she was always interesting to me as a figure. So I've been awaiting her return. She was always very high on my list of characters from Netflix to bring into the MCU.

Speaker 2:
[38:46] Please.

Speaker 3:
[38:48] I anxiously await Luke Cage's return as well. Fun to see their daughter, Danny, in this episode. So I kind of like...

Speaker 2:
[38:57] Fun to think about Danny Rand, your actual favorite Marvel Netflix superhero.

Speaker 3:
[39:01] Once again, not brought up. But I wish we hadn't had to wait quite this long. I think the mention of Jess at the beginning of the season, when we were talking about who could do what, dig up what, was a nice little wink to us. Be patient, she's coming. But it's an eight episode season. We got just a little bit in this sixth episode, and now there are only two episodes left. Now, if you're on the internet, you can see that I think she is going to be much more prominent in the third season.

Speaker 2:
[39:31] We hope. There have been set photos.

Speaker 3:
[39:33] Set photos. So that's exciting. I anticipate that greatly. I thought that I had a up, down, up response to Jess' use in this long awaited return. The way that the first action scene was cut, where you see this house in the suburbia and it's peaceful, and then you're just walloped into this Wetworks crew. Thought of Buffy. Wetworks us, and it was like, Scuba, I think it's murder. Anya, always on my mind now.

Speaker 2:
[40:08] I'm really proud of you.

Speaker 3:
[40:09] Thank you. I was excited to bring that up with you today. You're inside the room with her kid playing on the floor, and then there's a ticking bomb that rolls in the window, and you see the action before we ever see Jess's face. You know, it's not, it's filmed from like, we've got the legs, and then we have kind of the torso and the figures of blood against the body, slamming against the windows. You're like, you know it's Jessica Jones, but the tension is building. And then when she pops in and is like, that's not a toy, I was just like, here we fucking go. Great. Okay. I thought that the conversation between Jess and Matt on the rooftop was like pretty stilted and weird, and a little bit of a like, we now have to go through the awkward mechanics of reintroducing to you characters who have an established history. These two performers, these characters in shows together, and like kind of make sure you know that they're still in each other's lives talking about her kid, but also like aren't Jess having to catch him up on Mr. Charles, etc. So I was like, then they went to hit the weapons depot. And Jess threw a task force member through the wall and then like Kool-Aid manned in, and then Matt opened the door and walked through, and I was like, we're back, baby.

Speaker 2:
[41:25] That was the journey you went on.

Speaker 3:
[41:28] Absent-flos. Yeah. But I'm so glad Jessica's here. I just, Jessica Jones is a character I really enjoy, and I'm happy she's back. How about you?

Speaker 2:
[41:36] I like Jessica Jones. I don't know what it is. There was something about season one of Jessica Jones. Clearly the best. Yeah. Jessica Jones season. I think Kristen Ritter is great casting for Jessica Jones. Loved her since Veronica Mars, etc. Great stuff. I really like the Jessica Jones comics. I read a bunch of those before, long before the show was even announced. It was one that in my early days of reading comics, a friend of mine gave to me who's just like, you'll like this, you'll like Jessica Jones. I, for some reason, and I don't know, I don't even know if it's me pushing back on everyone expecting Jessica Jones to be my favorite Marvel show. There's like David Tennant's here. It's a badass mean girl. Strong woman. Yeah. Strong, independent female character.

Speaker 3:
[42:33] You're like, I hate women. Wait till you hear me talk about Daredevil.

Speaker 2:
[42:36] As you know, I dislike women. But I don't know, there was something about it where I was just like, I don't know, I like it a lot, but it's not my favorite. I'm so glad. I think Daredevil Clear of the Netflix stuff, Daredevil Clear. I think I actually like Luke Cage season 1 a bit better, and then I would put Jessica Jones season 1, and then it's just diminishing returns.

Speaker 3:
[43:02] Yeah. Where do you have defenders?

Speaker 2:
[43:05] Bargain basement. So that being said, the stuff with Matt and Jess and the defenders, when he has her scarf on his head and stuff like that, all his stuff is really good. That's some great stuff, and they have good energy. So I agree with you that I was missing a bit of that, of her making fun of him and all sorts of stuff in the rooftop conversation. But I'm excited. I think Kristen Ritter should still play Jessica Jones. I'm excited that Jessica Jones is here, and I'm excited to see where this goes. Am I a bit dismayed? Skip forward if you don't want to know about set photos for Daredevil Season 3. Am I a bit dismayed to see that Danny Rand is here?

Speaker 3:
[43:42] It's a little surprising.

Speaker 2:
[43:43] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[43:43] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[43:44] No offense to Finn Jones.

Speaker 3:
[43:45] No, of course not.

Speaker 2:
[43:45] But full offense to Danny Rand. So we'll see. Yeah, I'm eager to see how they use her for the rest of the season.

Speaker 3:
[43:53] Me too. How much of it feels like it's just another beat in moving the show into the era that this show running team wants it to be in? Like are we like fully finally out of the things we had to account for from season one? You know, which we talked about last week. There were still like some tendrils of that.

Speaker 2:
[44:13] Vanessa, Vanessa. Destroying Rabbit in a Snowstorm. Like.

Speaker 3:
[44:18] That was tough.

Speaker 2:
[44:19] RIP.

Speaker 3:
[44:20] That was tough.

Speaker 2:
[44:21] I mean, I wish it had stayed with just like the twin blood spatters of like King Wilson's blood and then Matt's blood twined together forever.

Speaker 3:
[44:30] What if we taped it back up the canvas from the back?

Speaker 2:
[44:34] Hmm. It'll be the same.

Speaker 3:
[44:36] And then it's just like, again, it's just.

Speaker 2:
[44:37] I've always said you should go into art restoration. You have. You have. Would it be duct tape? Is that what you would use?

Speaker 3:
[44:43] It's very strong.

Speaker 2:
[44:44] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[44:45] Very strong. You can use it in space.

Speaker 2:
[44:47] A moment for Scotch tape?

Speaker 3:
[44:48] I don't know that Scotch tape has the heft and integrity that we need here. So perhaps, maybe like a moving tape.

Speaker 2:
[44:55] A clear packing tape.

Speaker 3:
[44:55] Yeah, perhaps.

Speaker 2:
[44:56] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[44:57] And then, you know, it would hold together. You wouldn't see the tape from the front. You would see the scars, but it would just be some additional thematic resonance.

Speaker 2:
[45:05] Like some Katsugi sort of like. Exactly. That's where the beauty is. Exactly. In the scars.

Speaker 3:
[45:09] Exactly.

Speaker 2:
[45:10] Great. We've talked about a lot of things, but what I meant to start with is the most important thing that happens in this episode for you, for me, for humans in the world.

Speaker 3:
[45:19] Jesus.

Speaker 2:
[45:19] And that is Karen's, let's hope, final wig.

Speaker 3:
[45:26] Please, God.

Speaker 2:
[45:28] This is the worst thing I've ever seen in my life. Did it accidentally go through like a weed whacker? What happened to this wig? Did it have to be that like chaotic so someone could easily snatch it off her head, which they do at the end of this episode? But like, I know that some people are like, Joanna, you paid too much attention to wigs or whatever, but let's all be very clear. This is one of the batshit most insane things I've ever seen on television is this. I regret everything I said about the wigs last week because they all look like they belong in the Louvre compared to like what she is wearing on her head in this episode. Buck Cashman, I apologize. Your Rachel looks great. What the fuck was this?

Speaker 3:
[46:13] I was thinking of Buck's wig again when he and Heather were talking about how like they don't have a lot of people anymore. I was like, no one remembers that hair then. That's something. That's something. The Karen wig was remarkable. I do wonder, is it possible that it was a deliberate creative choice to make it that glaring and that galling so that we were really focused on it?

Speaker 2:
[46:40] When was it dramatically snatched?

Speaker 3:
[46:45] This was also dramatically pulled from her head.

Speaker 2:
[46:48] I will say this, and Mallory Rubin is a dyed in the wool, down to her marrow and her bones, Karen hater. I am not.

Speaker 3:
[46:58] I wouldn't say hater. Yeah, you are.

Speaker 2:
[47:00] Just own it.

Speaker 3:
[47:00] I'm not.

Speaker 2:
[47:01] Stay with your full chest. Stand on your business.

Speaker 3:
[47:03] Actually, I have some questions about Karen's journalistic integrity.

Speaker 2:
[47:06] You hate.

Speaker 3:
[47:07] In the first series.

Speaker 2:
[47:07] Well, she's not a journalist, but like-

Speaker 3:
[47:09] I know it.

Speaker 2:
[47:11] But you hate Karen, and that's okay. You don't hate women, but you hate Karen, and that's okay.

Speaker 3:
[47:16] Whereas you like Karen, but you hate women.

Speaker 2:
[47:19] You don't hate all genders, but you-

Speaker 3:
[47:21] I love a ginger. I love a ginger.

Speaker 2:
[47:22] But you hate Karen.

Speaker 3:
[47:23] No, I love a ginger.

Speaker 2:
[47:24] I do know that. You hate Karen. Even you must admit, this was an insane Karen episode. They put both her wig and her character development in the Weed Whacker together, in the Vitamix. I don't know what happened. But she is behaving so out of care. There are things that Karen would say and do, and pulling a gun on someone is not something that should surprise us. But there's this seemingly out of semi-nowhere rift between Matt and Karen inside of this episode. When he's like, I don't even recognize you, what happened to you? She says, you want to know what happened to me? I grew up. What is that in reaction to? Like, it's so confusing. Like, I understand. Like, she tries to explain. She's like, my witness that we put in witness protection didn't make it. I mean, no shit, Karen, that was never going to work. But like, yes, I understand that we've all been here for all the events that have happened this season. And yes, her foggy trauma, and that she would be upset about Dex being alive and being in there, you know. I guess they're in Punisher, Frank's, this is like Frank's little hideout is where they are. It's got like all of, it's like his weight machine, his stuff on the wall, his kid's art is there. So they're in like Frank's hideout. Dex should kind of be her type honestly, because they're really like putting him in the Frank Castle model here. But she should be mad that Dex is alive in here. Fair, fine. But this Karen is just out of control. Like I just feel like it's completely different character they're writing inside of this episode.

Speaker 3:
[49:06] Yeah, I don't think that the Matt, Karen conversations were very good in this episode or very successful. I think that there is a version of this that could work.

Speaker 2:
[49:20] Yes.

Speaker 3:
[49:20] Because, so it's more about the execution than the kind of like core idea or intention, which is so often the case, of course. I think that Karen over the years, if we think back to something like, not just the stuff that is actively invoked in these scenes, like what she went through with Wesley, which again, I kind of quickly mentioned that last week, but that was on my mind when we just were watching her like, I think you're right that we shouldn't be surprised at this point to see her polygon on decks. But when she was just sort of, and again, they're trying to help other people, they're helping the detainees escape. It was a dire circumstance, but the very like, I'm on the ground firing guns and firing bullets into people, and then I move on and don't think about it again, felt to me removed from a key aspect of Karen's interrogation of what it means to be that violent, and the way that her character has struggled with that over the years.

Speaker 2:
[50:13] Her flashback.

Speaker 3:
[50:14] Yeah, with the flashback episode, yeah. So like, you know, we have seen Karen in a number of different states, and the way that Karen-

Speaker 2:
[50:22] And wigs.

Speaker 3:
[50:25] And wigs. Powell coming over and be like, holy shit, it's Karen fucking Page.

Speaker 2:
[50:36] Powell also is like not behaving like-

Speaker 3:
[50:39] The Powell-Sonder stuff was like, that was all so rushed and so-

Speaker 2:
[50:42] Powell this season is like unrecognizable to who he was last season. Like he wasn't a good guy last season, but he was recognizably a human, now he's behaving like a soulless monster.

Speaker 3:
[50:54] They've obviously brought the other guy back to be like, what do you do in Powell that even someone else who has made the choice to participate in this task force could be appalled by the way he's behaving. I think this show continues to really struggle with these attempts to, in quick beats of story and dialogue or character choice, ask us to accept that this is how these people would behave. I think it is then particularly challenging, not just as a character like Karen, but a relationship like Matt's and Karen's, which is the thing we are most deeply rooted in in the history of the show at this point. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[51:30] RIP Foggy.

Speaker 3:
[51:31] RIP Foggy. It would have been like Matt and Karen, Matt and Foggy number one, Matt and Karen, and like-

Speaker 2:
[51:36] Father Lantham.

Speaker 3:
[51:37] Father Lantham, gone.

Speaker 2:
[51:38] Who died mysteriously, we don't know how. Don't worry about it. Don't even worry about how Father Lantham died.

Speaker 3:
[51:43] I didn't hear Karen bringing that up.

Speaker 2:
[51:45] I didn't hear it.

Speaker 3:
[51:45] Remember what this did?

Speaker 2:
[51:46] What did she say? Did I miss it?

Speaker 3:
[51:49] You weren't too busy looking at the chest hair, which I understand, honestly.

Speaker 2:
[51:54] She got to the bottom of what happened to Father Lantham, an unsolved mystery on this show.

Speaker 3:
[51:59] She did.

Speaker 2:
[52:00] Wow. She is a good investigative journalist.

Speaker 3:
[52:02] She's always had the skills, the reporting chops after all. But I think, so Karen pushing Matt, and again, they're invoking that. She's like, I know I was the one who pulled you back when you wanted to do these things. But I love this idea that they are both constantly yo-yoing in and out of different relationships to their own morality and the choices they make. That actually makes sense to me. I think that they find themselves sometimes then on opposite sides of that turnstile also makes sense to me. I don't know, like Karen just like Fisk this thing over the people who love you. It was very like really bad version of Gollum has broken through Smeagol for a minute. Like we do all have two wolves inside. We all carry a Gollum and a Smeagol inside.

Speaker 2:
[52:52] But do you think Deborah Ann Wall is available for Gollum?

Speaker 3:
[52:57] I hope so.

Speaker 2:
[52:58] Should Andy call her? Because Andy is doing a lot of that movie. Can he both direct and be Gollum? I don't know.

Speaker 3:
[53:03] Who's the precious in this situation, I guess? Is it the gun that she tried to shoot Dex with?

Speaker 2:
[53:07] Is it Dex himself?

Speaker 3:
[53:09] Listen, what I did, in fact, right in my notes.

Speaker 2:
[53:12] Is the golden chest hair is gleaming like the golden ring, the one ring?

Speaker 3:
[53:17] Yes, that. But also, Who Among Us. Hot Who Among Us, I wrote multiple times. When she chose to in the moment before attempting to shoot him in the head, straddle him. You don't need to do it.

Speaker 2:
[53:29] Grasp the back of his head like she's going to make out with him.

Speaker 3:
[53:33] You don't need to do it. But she chose to do it.

Speaker 2:
[53:36] She did choose that and that was a very relatable moment. That was compelling.

Speaker 3:
[53:39] I understood that. Then Dex obviously trying to work her, and manipulate her into the outcome that he is seeking. Then the fact that she was willingly-

Speaker 2:
[53:46] It works on her in a way that it didn't with Matt.

Speaker 3:
[53:49] Yeah. It's not even like he's like, oh, I have manipulated you because I'm such a master at this. She's like, I want that too. I'm allowing you to lead me into this place, even though I know that that is what's happening.

Speaker 2:
[54:02] How many episodes do you think Dex will be handcuffed heartlessly to a cot and did it make you think of Spike manacled in the bathtub in Buffy the Vampire Slayer season four?

Speaker 3:
[54:11] It did. And then you put that GIF in our notes. So it did again.

Speaker 2:
[54:16] But my question was, did you think of it before?

Speaker 3:
[54:18] Yeah. I mean, it's just, again, you have a type and it's very clear. So yeah, I don't know. The Karen, Matt stuff is not really working this season, I don't think, which is a bummer, because I was very eager for their relationship to be centered again.

Speaker 2:
[54:34] I thought it was working kind of okay in the first couple of episodes. And then they just sort of back-burnered it, and then all of a sudden it's fallen apart. And I just feel like they didn't plot that arc very well. We'll see what happens in seven and eight. As I mentioned last week, and I checked with Arjuna about this, because Arjuna did watch The Screeners, this scene that opens this episode of Fisk killing the doctor was originally at the end of last week's episode when The Screeners went out. Arjuna confirmed that that was true, and as I mentioned, a couple of different outlets working off The Screeners and their recaps, put it in there. So does it matter to you? What do you think is behind moving it from his grief at the end of last week's episode into the opening here? Is it a good note to start this episode with? Would it have been a better note than last week's episode with? What do you think about that?

Speaker 3:
[55:28] I guess I think it works better here, maybe.

Speaker 2:
[55:31] I kind of agree.

Speaker 3:
[55:32] Then because we have the kind of pivot point from grief to rage, which feels like an effective beat to have lingered in for a minute, where we're just like, we are mourning. This tragic thing has happened. We end in that dark, desperate place. And then very quickly, we open there, you know, we're with him, he's by her bedside. He's crying, it was like very sad, I thought.

Speaker 2:
[55:57] You know what would have helped?

Speaker 3:
[55:59] The doctor not coming in quoting William Penn.

Speaker 2:
[56:01] Some ice cold pineapple juice.

Speaker 3:
[56:03] Pineapple juice to a little tingle, the good kind of tingle. Not the bad kind of tingle.

Speaker 2:
[56:06] Now I understand that he's quoting William Penn, but did it make you think of what is dead may never die?

Speaker 3:
[56:12] Totally, yes. I just thought this was a real-

Speaker 2:
[56:14] Were you like, king's move, king's move.

Speaker 6:
[56:17] Yes, definitely.

Speaker 3:
[56:19] I always liked that crown. I did. A lot of notes on your own, but I liked that crown.

Speaker 2:
[56:23] Do you think that this doctor was watching season six of Game of Thrones right before he died?

Speaker 3:
[56:29] It's the only explanation.

Speaker 2:
[56:31] Then do you think he will never know how badly the show ended? Maybe it's a bit of a mercy that his life was cut short in the midst of season six, which is not my favorite, but certainly not as bad as it gets.

Speaker 3:
[56:42] Some great episodes in season six, as you know, I believe. I'm trying to, I thought this doc, this doc, this brain surgeon was real weird from the word go, but I am trying to think of a worse misread by any character ever.

Speaker 2:
[57:07] In the history of fiction.

Speaker 3:
[57:09] In the history of story, then Mayor Fisk, would you like a hug?

Speaker 2:
[57:14] Hey, big guy. What the fuck was that?

Speaker 3:
[57:18] Crazy. His spine got snapped and all of his organs were trying to pulp inside of him and then he died.

Speaker 2:
[57:26] Dr. Goode, too dumb to live.

Speaker 3:
[57:28] I mean, that was immediately proven. I guess the only counterpoint may be that it was better at the beginning of this than the end of last week, because then we went from that into the funeral, into the post-funeral reception and to me-

Speaker 2:
[57:45] Wilson doesn't talk in that scene, right? He doesn't talk for most of this episode until the very end.

Speaker 3:
[57:50] He whispers to Vanessa a little bit, but yeah.

Speaker 2:
[57:54] He's silent at the funeral.

Speaker 3:
[57:55] He doesn't talk to Charles on the phone.

Speaker 2:
[57:56] Doesn't talk to Charles on the phone.

Speaker 3:
[57:57] Real power move. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[57:59] Have you done that? Icy silence? When Jimmy Fallon calls to talk to you about this week's survivor.

Speaker 3:
[58:04] I await your apology. We await your apology.

Speaker 2:
[58:08] He won't say you're forgiven. You will just give him icy silence. All right. We've already talked about the, you already went over the Jessica Jones intro. Just to make it clear in case people don't know, Danielle, her daughter is her daughter with Luke Cage, per Comics Canon, and Danielle is named Danielle, a.k.a. Danny after Luke Cage's BFF, Danny Rand. Danny Rand, you are with us now and always, I guess. But what I think is interesting is this connection, as you alluded to, between Mr. Charles and Jessica Jones. This information she gives in this stilted exposition way of, Mr. Charles is hunting down supers, and not everyone she knows said no when he came a call in. So we know that Mr. Charles is associated with the CIA, and with Julie Louis-Dreyfus.

Speaker 3:
[59:00] Sure. Val is always welcome. Always.

Speaker 2:
[59:02] Is she? Okay. With Val, CIA.

Speaker 3:
[59:05] Yep.

Speaker 2:
[59:06] We think that in the Spider-Man movie, Jean Grey is being held by damage control. But like, is there a way in which those are all connected? Or are we watching Val and the CIA and damage control hunting down mutants or supers, however you prefer, whatever you prefer to call them?

Speaker 3:
[59:29] Good questions.

Speaker 2:
[59:30] I hope it's the same plot and scheme. Yeah. Because it feels a little messy if it's not.

Speaker 3:
[59:35] Plot and scheme.

Speaker 2:
[59:36] Here's the most important thing that happens in this episode. Matthew Lillard, an icon, a 90s gemstone.

Speaker 3:
[59:41] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[59:42] Snacks on a Granny Smith apple.

Speaker 3:
[59:43] He does.

Speaker 2:
[59:44] Welcome to Team Green. Matthew Lillard, we are legion. Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[59:48] Mr. Charles, really the one that you want on your team. Interesting. You know what else he ingested in this episode? The green apple.

Speaker 2:
[59:58] My team is growing. Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[59:59] You're amassing roster members left and right lately. Just let's shoot a green apple off of Rue's head. We got another wonderful green apple thing that we'll be talking about more soon. When he's at the governor's house. Beautiful library.

Speaker 2:
[60:19] What would you do if you came home and you don't have a fireplace? Do you have a fireplace?

Speaker 3:
[60:24] There's a gas fireplace. Okay.

Speaker 2:
[60:25] I was cozied up to your fireplace with a really nice glass of whiskey that I gave you, but okay.

Speaker 3:
[60:30] Well, this is what I was going to bring up.

Speaker 2:
[60:31] My shoes are off. Well, you would like that. I wouldn't prefer that. I forgot that. You don't like shoes at home. If you walked in, I don't want to come home to a stranger in their socks in my house.

Speaker 3:
[60:41] I don't want to come home to somebody who has trekked the filth from outside into my living room or my respondent library. Should I ever be fortunate enough to have one?

Speaker 2:
[60:50] Overly familiar.

Speaker 3:
[60:52] Well, he dipped into the mickters. So mickters, that's what I was going to bring up because he's like, is this the 20-year mickters I gave you? Because it is fucking delicious. And that was my favorite Mr. Charles moment yet. We saw him when we met him. He was just down in booze, right? Mickters is one of my personal favorites.

Speaker 2:
[61:09] So you're saying Mr. Charles is a man of refined tastes.

Speaker 3:
[61:11] I mean, I think so. A 20-year mickters is no fucking joke. I mean, that is a pricey bottle.

Speaker 2:
[61:16] An excellent palate he must have. Fond of both nice whiskey and Grady Smith apples.

Speaker 3:
[61:21] I mean, he wasn't like, let me describe all of the flavor notes he said, fucking delicious. So how refined is the palate? I don't know, but that's a good bottle of booze.

Speaker 2:
[61:30] Sure, walk it back.

Speaker 3:
[61:30] You know who else loved a bottle of mickters?

Speaker 2:
[61:32] Who's that?

Speaker 3:
[61:32] Axe from Billions. I never, you know, never miss a chance to bring up Billions. Mickters was Axe's.

Speaker 2:
[61:39] Billions are all a choice. Showtime's like, thank you for keeping our back cuddle alive. Just you. Do you want to talk about Weeds? Should we talk about Weeds?

Speaker 3:
[61:47] I loved Weeds.

Speaker 2:
[61:48] Yeah, Californication. Let's roll out all the Showtime classics.

Speaker 3:
[61:51] Let me tell you something right now. This is not the first time that Californication has come up this week. It came up earlier this week, and I was also excited to discuss it then. Fucking Impunction, remember that?

Speaker 2:
[62:03] Listen.

Speaker 3:
[62:04] Vividly.

Speaker 2:
[62:04] We all lived through Showtime together. Okay. So Mr. Charles is both hunting soups and connected to Val, and has a deal with Fisk, and has a relationship with the governor so much so that he calls her Marge, and puts his stocking feet up near her fireplace.

Speaker 3:
[62:21] Indeed.

Speaker 2:
[62:22] Where is your interest level on this whole mayoral gubernatorial succession candidate shell game because we've got Sheila in the mix with Spider-Man trailer spoiler attached to it, and we've got Lieutenant Government Juan Gomez in the mix, a character that we've met literally once, so do we care?

Speaker 3:
[62:37] Buck is trying to stoke the ambition there a little bit. I don't care about this at all, which is a problem because it's pretty core to the structure of this season and more characters are being introduced week after week, who are entwined with this aspect of the plot. Of course, Wilson Fisk's relationship to power and control and public office as a way to, so much of the conversation that he and Matt have at the end, I will say, not to jump ahead. Matt coming in and just, I'm sorry for your loss, Wilson. I was actually like, that really hit Wilson. Did it? Yeah, just the Wilson for me.

Speaker 2:
[63:22] You don't think it was a Dr. Goo level of misreading the room?

Speaker 3:
[63:27] Well, based on how it went, I don't know that it was totally the right tactic.

Speaker 2:
[63:30] But do you think Dr. Goo would have had a better time if he-

Speaker 3:
[63:33] Dr. Goo is just tough one.

Speaker 2:
[63:35] If he could have come into the BBC next season, Dr. Goo.

Speaker 3:
[63:39] How would Dr. Goo have done in the pit? What do you think? Maybe pretty well, actually. I think the like, would you like a hug move would be pretty warmly received.

Speaker 2:
[63:48] He's a night crawler. That's what I think.

Speaker 3:
[63:50] Night crawler. Also a Dunkin Donuts ice coffee guy?

Speaker 2:
[63:54] No. Get off of Dr. Shen's beat. He owns that corner.

Speaker 3:
[63:58] I just love Shen as you know.

Speaker 2:
[64:00] He's my literal favorite.

Speaker 3:
[64:02] It's great.

Speaker 2:
[64:05] Speaking of Dr. Shen, here's one of my favorite things that has ever happened on a Showtime show. In Weeds season four, I want to say, you know how Nancy is always like drinking an iced coffee?

Speaker 3:
[64:15] Sure.

Speaker 2:
[64:16] Someone literally slaps the iced coffee out of her hand. She slaps the straw out of her mouth and I keep waiting for someone to do that to Dr. Shen.

Speaker 3:
[64:23] Oh, man. The bot wins. What a time that was.

Speaker 2:
[64:26] But Justin Kirk, my guy. But listen, do you think Dr. Goo would have had a better time if he too could have loomed into a room artistically the shadow of his distinctive headgear, you know, cast over Wilson? Do you think it would have gone better for him?

Speaker 3:
[64:44] I don't. I still think that his critical error in addition to Wilson Fisk, Kingpin, Would You Like a Hug? Was, Vanessa, she died, probably fine. She's at peace now. Death, let me tell you why it's great.

Speaker 2:
[64:59] What is dead may never die.

Speaker 3:
[65:00] Which I don't think, I don't think was what Wilson Fisk was looking for here.

Speaker 2:
[65:03] Have you heard the good word about your own gray joint? It just like did not go over. All right.

Speaker 3:
[65:08] Oh, man.

Speaker 2:
[65:09] Buck Cashman is probably going to be involved in some sort of gubernatorial assassination or something like that, I would have to guess. But what we would prefer to watch him do.

Speaker 3:
[65:16] Yeah. Wow.

Speaker 2:
[65:17] Boy. Is, fuck Heather. Because I think this is the thing you were, you buried the leak. When you texted to me, you left me a voice note about what happened in the episode. I did.

Speaker 3:
[65:29] I didn't realize you hadn't watched it yet.

Speaker 2:
[65:31] Yeah. You just outlined a lot of spoilers. I'm so sorry. I can't wait to talk about all the things that happened in episode nine and watch the episode. That's okay. Shirley's Decks gets a passing mention. You actually didn't even say that. You just said Karen watching Decks sleep. That's what you said.

Speaker 3:
[65:46] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[65:47] But Heather, I believe you said climaxing while choking Buck was, I think, your most central point. This is, I think, your favorite part of this episode. You were notoriously a Dr. Heather Glenn fan because you love women. And I just want to say this.

Speaker 3:
[66:05] Oh my God.

Speaker 2:
[66:06] Please forgive me, but I ship it. Buck Cashman and Dr. Heather Glenn, this is deeply fucked up, of course. This is not good PTSD coping mechanism, I would say.

Speaker 3:
[66:23] Yeah. Interesting.

Speaker 2:
[66:24] But it was incredibly hot, question mark.

Speaker 3:
[66:27] I was compelled.

Speaker 2:
[66:29] Tell me your thoughts and feelings.

Speaker 3:
[66:31] I'm curious to come back to her stealing Vanessa's jewelry and what you make of that.

Speaker 2:
[66:36] Just the one earring.

Speaker 3:
[66:37] Yeah. Very following one earring.

Speaker 2:
[66:42] I just literally wrote in my note. I was like, what if it were a pearl earring? Stay tuned for the Nolan episode. Can't wait.

Speaker 3:
[66:48] My God. So that was interesting. And just in general, the presentation of Heather and Vanessa's relationship like...

Speaker 2:
[66:56] Vanessa. Vanessa.

Speaker 3:
[66:57] I... We'll talk about that in a second. Obviously, the headline is the choking. Buck finds Heather in this room in an emotional state and asks if she's okay. And she is processing what happened with Muse still. We have seen Muse popping up, right? She's nailing things to the wall, all flashes of him.

Speaker 2:
[67:21] The old camera tilt starts, the camera tilt. Like, here we go. Except it was Buck Cashman. It wasn't Muse.

Speaker 3:
[67:26] That's indeed. Great outcome, frankly. So she tells Buck, the man I killed, because she's like, you carry a gun, you've killed people. Well, the man I killed, he was a patient, he came to me for help. And Buck, very present and reassuring, he was a madman who tried to kill you.

Speaker 2:
[67:44] But say it Britishly.

Speaker 3:
[67:46] It was a madman who tried to kill you.

Speaker 2:
[67:48] There you go.

Speaker 3:
[67:49] What you did was brave.

Speaker 2:
[67:51] Hotter, much hotter. Madman, as said by a British person, is much hotter.

Speaker 3:
[67:56] Boy, I don't feel brave. What did he do? And then we're flashing as she's describing it. He cut me. He choked me. And then Buck Cashman says in reply, show me. Which I don't think is how most people would reply to that, but Buck is down to fuck, that's clear. And he's also-

Speaker 2:
[68:17] Scientifically, medically, psychologically, we cannot approve of this tactic.

Speaker 3:
[68:24] As lovers of Buck Cashman, I mean, we're pro, you know, two consenting adults just working through their trauma here.

Speaker 2:
[68:32] Just a little breath play.

Speaker 3:
[68:33] A little, but more than a little breath play.

Speaker 2:
[68:35] A little breath play with tears streaming down our face and someone is turning purple.

Speaker 3:
[68:38] And the subtitling. So, okay, show me, no, it's okay. And then she does show him. So her hands are wrapped around his neck and she's choking him and he is asphyxiating. And she is, I think, definitely canonically, undeniably orgasming.

Speaker 2:
[68:56] No question in my mind. By the way, I got that description of you before I saw the scene. So I thought she was like literally actually going to like come and like, I think she did. I think that's a, that's an absolutely solid read for me. But I don't think every single person watching that episode was like, that was an orgasm.

Speaker 3:
[69:13] I think it was an orgasm. I think this was a deep emotional, but also sexual journey. And this was about about Heather being in power, right? And rediscovering control and power. But the tracking of her breath pattern.

Speaker 2:
[69:31] What did the closed captioning say?

Speaker 3:
[69:32] Okay, so we start with.

Speaker 2:
[69:34] There's nothing.

Speaker 3:
[69:35] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[69:36] There's nothing I love more. Mallory Rubin dramatically reads some muddy captioning from a TV show.

Speaker 3:
[69:46] They did a great job with this. Brackets, panting.

Speaker 2:
[69:52] Spoiler please.

Speaker 3:
[69:54] Bracket, Heather continues panting. And then she orgasms and Buck smiling, proud to have brought the woman in his life to the peak of her pleasure, says, very proud of himself, you feel better? And then the subtitles say again in brackets, exhales. I rest my case, I rest my case.

Speaker 2:
[70:24] Okay, counselor, we've been waiting for more legal drama on the show and you brought it in. I'm so proud of you. Okay. Quickly, I'm just going to buzz through this part, La Resistance. This feels very budget and or to me, quite sad. They do a wide shot of the crowd and it's just like about 20 to 30 people and it look, I just don't, I think when they were shooting it is like chaos and the cameras in the crowd, it was sort of convincingly, because the point that the members of the Resistance are saying is like there's more of us than there are of them, it's growing every day, this outrage, blah, blah, blah, like the Videsa mourners are here with their candles, but we got more, but it's like it's just a few people show up to this vigil.

Speaker 3:
[71:06] Right, the idea that Fisk has lost the people, to the extent that he had them and of course, he did have some lamentably certainly.

Speaker 2:
[71:15] Dana Blake's mom, she's got a Trump flag on her.

Speaker 3:
[71:20] The political machine as well, because as Fisk is looking out at the assembled, Buck comes in and says like, I have an update.

Speaker 2:
[71:28] Marge is not about it.

Speaker 3:
[71:29] Big Marge has pulled her support.

Speaker 2:
[71:31] Big Marge is out.

Speaker 3:
[71:31] Big Marge and Mr. Charles are sipping the 20 year.

Speaker 2:
[71:35] They're out.

Speaker 3:
[71:36] And probably nausea on some Granny Smiths, and you no longer have their support, so that's just true.

Speaker 2:
[71:42] I just think the crowd was like kind of weenie for the point that they're trying to make.

Speaker 3:
[71:49] If there had been too many people, you would not have been able to so clearly see all of the flyaways on Karen's wig. Think of it that way. So you make your trade-offs creatively in order to center.

Speaker 2:
[71:59] I really disagree because of her projection, her Laura Zitzbaum's projection art. She was quite backlit.

Speaker 3:
[72:06] That's true.

Speaker 2:
[72:06] And so that really highlighted the sort of weed whacked effect of her wig. What I did like is you saw a bunch of people in the crowd put on their own homemade Daredevil masks and I was very into the Spider-verse, anyone can wear the mask moment, which we are Daredevil.

Speaker 3:
[72:23] Always great.

Speaker 2:
[72:24] Yes. Saves a couple of things for last and they're gifts to you.

Speaker 3:
[72:27] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[72:28] One's a gift for you and then the other one is just like, we should talk about this. Daniel takes BB home to Staten Island to meet his ma. Daniel Blake calling his mother ma is like the most Blakecore thing you could have.

Speaker 3:
[72:43] Absolutely.

Speaker 2:
[72:43] A moment for Ma Blake.

Speaker 3:
[72:44] Yeah. Yes.

Speaker 2:
[72:45] Here's her nighttime routine.

Speaker 3:
[72:46] Yep.

Speaker 2:
[72:47] Chardonnay. Melatonin.

Speaker 3:
[72:50] Out.

Speaker 2:
[72:50] Then she's out.

Speaker 3:
[72:50] Actually, there's one more detail. Turn the TV on. The cat likes it.

Speaker 2:
[72:57] Mallory Core.

Speaker 3:
[72:58] Oh my God. I'm not much of a Chardonnay person.

Speaker 2:
[72:59] Will you be adopting? But maybe you should try.

Speaker 3:
[73:01] But a nice glass of something. A 20-year Mikters. Absolutely. Plus the Melatonin. Let me say that.

Speaker 2:
[73:07] I'm a believer in Melatonin, by the way.

Speaker 3:
[73:09] You've told me this before. I would say maybe three of the last seven nights, you know what I've done? Nature's Melatonin, Kiwi before bed.

Speaker 1:
[73:20] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[73:22] Delicious and apparently just chock full.

Speaker 2:
[73:25] Has it helped?

Speaker 3:
[73:29] Actually, I will say, I think those nights it did. But in general, you've received some messages from me this week about the state of my wellness, so I don't know if I can say really convincingly that everything's great.

Speaker 2:
[73:39] Will you consider booze plus medical grade melatonin plus, I will say, you got to make sure you watch your milligrams of the melatonin. Because one time I took too much and I felt like I was going to die. Just I felt completely unhinged. The walls were melting.

Speaker 3:
[73:58] No, I would want to be in the exact place that- Start small. Bebe and Daniel, it's like life goals.

Speaker 2:
[74:07] The way that Bebe actually quite likes Daniel's ma, and I believe her and I think she genuinely did want to kiss him because she saw-

Speaker 3:
[74:14] No question.

Speaker 2:
[74:14] Not only his baby photos, but his very Mallory Rubin coded, life is short, buy the shoes poster. Do you have that poster? Will you be purchasing that poster? I found it on Etsy. I could buy it for you.

Speaker 3:
[74:25] Great. I will happily hang it in my home. I am a big life is short, buy the sneakers person, as you know. You know a fair bit about my sneaker collection and my stock ex habits if I missed the drop. You then have, there's a second grade I was looking to see, have the other poster. Life is short, wear the sneakers. This is another struggle. In the sneaker head community, you talk yourself into making the purchase, but then you're like, fuck, I spent a lot of money on those sneakers. I can't really risk like that they get dirty or that they get creased.

Speaker 2:
[74:56] Do you have pairs that you haven't worn at all?

Speaker 3:
[74:57] I do have a couple pairs that I have. Let me think here. Three pairs that I've not had the courage to break out yet. Actually, four. Four.

Speaker 2:
[75:10] Life is short, wear the shoes.

Speaker 3:
[75:12] But this is the year. One of them is just a pretty new gift from Adam that I haven't had the opportunity to wear yet. And then a few of them are like, I have the Serena Off-White Blazers, which is a real crown jewel in my collection, and I have not worn them yet, but I really should. I've got a couple of pairs of the Off-White Prestos that I haven't broken out, but I should. And Adam got me the Olive Travis Scott's, which is one of my most coveted pairs, and that was a recent gift. So I will wear those, but I haven't yet. I love a sneaker. I love Daniel Blake. I love BB and Daniel Blake and continue to be just completely captivated by this relationship.

Speaker 2:
[75:44] I thought the whole buck, Dude, he's like, do the Tyrion Lannister. Pull the Tyrion, find the leak. And then for her to not send the text.

Speaker 3:
[75:55] That's right. To Ellison. Thank God. I don't need Ellison back in the story. Let me just throw that out there.

Speaker 2:
[76:00] Ellison who promoted Karen Fakes to head reporter. Okay. So BB does not send the text. She goes in for the kiss and he's like, God damn it, BB.

Speaker 3:
[76:10] You fucked us and I can't keep you safe.

Speaker 2:
[76:12] You fucked us. And I say, You fucked us before we got. I say, God damn it, BB. Why did you just keep that drive in your coat pocket?

Speaker 3:
[76:21] That's weird.

Speaker 2:
[76:22] It's not like it was just placed there.

Speaker 3:
[76:24] What about just even moving it to a different pocket? I bet surely that coat has one of those little inner.

Speaker 2:
[76:30] A little satin interior pocket, what it's saying to you. But when he's like, I can't save you from Buck Cashman. And this is like, when Buck drew Daniel into this other room to talk to him about the Tyrion Lannister move, I was worried that he was like.

Speaker 3:
[76:43] The barium meal test.

Speaker 2:
[76:45] Very good. I was very worried that he was going to say, You got to kill her.

Speaker 3:
[76:52] Me too. I do think it's another bit of fodder that we are building toward that.

Speaker 2:
[76:56] Two more episodes to go.

Speaker 3:
[76:57] Barium meal test and Daniel being like, Yeah, I'm familiar. It's like paleo, right? My mom does that. Iconic. And Buck is like, Jesus, let me once again be right back in this Hellman's Mayo thing with you.

Speaker 2:
[77:10] On your Is Daniel actually Wilson's biological son front, even though we get a photo of him with his dad in this episode and stuff like that, they did have the cut from Daniel sort of like doing this to Wilson Fisk sort of doing this. And in that cut, I was like, by George, maybe Mallory's right.

Speaker 3:
[77:31] Well, and like the fact that this idea of Daniel's father being introduced now to the story and how we think of him, we've met his mom, we've seen their relationship, we've seen this picture and we've seen BB looking at that picture of his father. We've heard Ma Blake say to Daniel, like, your father would be so proud. That feels to me like a very deliberate thing to do is to introduce the family he grew up in before maybe learning like who his biological father is.

Speaker 2:
[77:57] Entirely possible. Nothing disproved your, in fact, I was just saying, I thought, kind of little note in your favor. Okay, Matt V. Wilson.

Speaker 3:
[78:07] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[78:09] I guess. I don't know, I have nothing negative to say about the sort of technical aspects of this fight. I thought Matt's alacrity versus Wilson's brutal. We've seen them fight before, but there's also a little bit more speed to Wilson. He's been working on the boxing ring and stuff like that. So the brute strength is still there. He's punching brick columns. But also, he's a little lighter on his feet than when we've seen him in the past, and it's believable to me because he's been training. So from a fight choreo perspective, this is interesting to me. Thematically, it wasn't that interesting to me.

Speaker 3:
[78:47] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[78:48] Just because I guess we've seen, I don't know, we've seen it. It's not the finale fight, so you're not like major is going to happen here. Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[78:56] I'm in the same place, I think. I like opportunities to see these two interact. The substance of what Matt was saying to Fisk here.

Speaker 2:
[79:08] If we had never met, Foggy might be alive, Vanessa might be alive. Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[79:11] We flashed to Foggy, we flashed to Vanessa, we flashed to Wesley.

Speaker 2:
[79:17] In the same category as Vanessa and Foggy, for sure.

Speaker 3:
[79:20] That's wild. A lot of Wesley lately, which has been fun. If you leave New York, I'll leave New York. That was all a little bit flat for me. That initial moment of just the shadow of Matt against Fisk in his portrait of grief, and then that, I don't know what, it was just something about the like, I'm not surprised you're here Murdock, I'm sorry for your loss, Wilson. Just something about calling him Wilson and the ability to just for a minute present, not only to remind us and call upon all that history, but just to present a real just genuine glimmer of humanity between these two people who have spent years of their lives focused fully on trying to tear the other person down. It was very compelling to me. Unlike when Matt is making his case, it is one of those things where there's just like sometimes it's okay for characters to try to do something that we know will not work. That's fine, but this was like a little bit too inert as a pitch, I think, because it is, I don't know. And the fight itself was fine and good. I did like, I was more compelled by the Fisk side of the fight because I liked, you know, you mentioned the punching of the column and then his kind of like primal scream of pain, this idea that he's a little bit out of-

Speaker 2:
[80:45] Which is something Matt's been doing all season.

Speaker 3:
[80:47] Yeah, and the huffing and the heavy breathing and like the, there's a little bit of this like- Entirely, entirely impossible.

Speaker 2:
[80:55] Did he also exhale, which she was a clear sign that somebody orgasmed?

Speaker 3:
[81:00] There was the very heavy breathing and then the exhaling, that's all.

Speaker 2:
[81:05] I really did like the delivery from D'Onofrio on what are you gonna do, arrest me, you cannot kill me, you will not. Part of that's in just the like, the refusal to use a contraction, it sort of like elevates that one, you cannot, you will not. I liked his delivery a bit.

Speaker 3:
[81:20] Not as good if he's like, you can't, bro.

Speaker 2:
[81:22] Yeah, you can't. Kill me, you won't. Eh, what do you got? So like, this is like, it's quite dramatic. And yeah, this is the whole like, what the fuck are you doing, Matt Murdock? You like, what is your option? Let's both get out of town, like that's what we're doing. Right. Matt, just kill him, I don't know.

Speaker 3:
[81:41] Yeah, and like, well, I mean, Karen agrees, obviously, and so Matt will come back from this fight.

Speaker 2:
[81:47] Everyone who has their head on straight agrees.

Speaker 3:
[81:50] Matt will come back, bloodied, bruised from this confrontation, and that will presumably...

Speaker 2:
[81:55] But Karen will be in peril, she's arrested.

Speaker 3:
[81:59] I mean, I know. Yeah, Powell, you know? The wig would have snatched and then he saw the hair on Mistakeably Karen.

Speaker 2:
[82:05] Who's gonna patch up Matt?

Speaker 3:
[82:06] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[82:07] Is it gonna be Soledad?

Speaker 3:
[82:08] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[82:09] Or Dex?

Speaker 3:
[82:12] I am still personally grieving the tease of I Know a Nurse, not being Clark Temple, which is fucked up.

Speaker 2:
[82:21] Dirty pool.

Speaker 3:
[82:24] I think that Matt going back and basically walking in expecting to receive a lecture from Karen, who's like, see, what did you think was gonna happen?

Speaker 2:
[82:34] It's just a chain of Sherlock Dex.

Speaker 3:
[82:37] And he's like, I'm gonna also make the case to you again, but I'll stitch you up first. We'll work through some of this together.

Speaker 2:
[82:43] That's gonna be pretty fun.

Speaker 3:
[82:45] That would be good. I mean, they're both gonna be shirtless.

Speaker 2:
[82:47] And you won't be here for that.

Speaker 3:
[82:48] Will you scream kiss?

Speaker 2:
[82:50] Absolutely. You won't be here sadly, but I will be here to cover that episode. Really excited to do that. Anything else you want to say before we go?

Speaker 3:
[82:58] Can't wait to watch the episode. Can't wait to watch the pod. Sad to miss it. Sad not to be here, but I will.

Speaker 2:
[83:03] You'll be here for the finale.

Speaker 3:
[83:04] I will be back for the finale. That's right, and I hope it's good, and I hope that Dex is out there in the world doing a lot, but maybe chained to a bed for some of it, for your sick.

Speaker 2:
[83:17] Thank you so much to our defenders today.

Speaker 3:
[83:19] That's right.

Speaker 2:
[83:20] Carlos Chiriboga, Scott Lee, Jacob Cornett, who has had to listen to me talk for so many hours because he's on both of my shows. Jamie Yukich, Kai Grady is pitch hitting here, Arjuna Ramgopowell, and Jomi Adeniran. What a crew. Just a full team. Thank you to you, Mallory Rubin.

Speaker 3:
[83:37] Thank you to you, Joanna Robinson.

Speaker 2:
[83:38] Thanks to our listeners.

Speaker 3:
[83:39] Thanks to The Vampire Lestat.

Speaker 2:
[83:40] Oh my God. Thank you so much, Sam Reid.

Speaker 3:
[83:42] Thanks to Clayface.

Speaker 2:
[83:44] We will be back with Nolan Doubleheader soon. Bye-bye.