transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:06] Welcome to Women and Crime Reconsidered, where we revisit our catalog and bring new insights and updates. Today's episode is number 57, The Yoselyn Ortega Story. Today is another really hard one. Be sure to stick around after today's original airing to hear a brief case update and a discussion about the complexities of mental illness. But for now, let's go ahead and hear our original coverage of the Yoselyn Ortega story. The Krim family was looking for a nanny to care for their growing family and felt blessed when they found a kind woman with a terrific reference. However, appearances would prove deceiving and on a fateful October night, the family's life would change forever when Ms. Krim would walk into a nightmare. This is the Yoselyn Ortega story. Hi, Meghan.

Speaker 2:
[01:25] Hey, Amy.

Speaker 1:
[01:25] I had so much fun camping with you last weekend.

Speaker 2:
[01:28] I know, wasn't it fun to get back out there?

Speaker 1:
[01:30] It was so great. And I didn't get abducted on my run through the woods.

Speaker 2:
[01:34] I know, I was a little nervous when I saw the trail, but it was good, it was great.

Speaker 1:
[01:38] Before we get into today's episode, I want to thank Danielle Kolboswaki for her help with the research.

Speaker 2:
[01:43] Thank you, Danielle. And who do we have for our patrons today, Amy?

Speaker 1:
[01:46] First, we'd like to thank Jerry from Boston and Michaela. Who else do we have, Meghan?

Speaker 2:
[01:51] We have Lily Ingram, Lakshmi, and Nicole Goodman.

Speaker 1:
[01:55] Thank you all so much for supporting the show, and it's because of listeners like you that we can continue to bring you high quality content.

Speaker 2:
[02:01] Thank you, everyone. We appreciate it.

Speaker 1:
[02:03] The case that we're going to be talking about today felt so personal to me because at the time of this event, I was working as a nanny in the same city that had happened.

Speaker 2:
[02:11] That's right. I always forget that you worked as a nanny.

Speaker 1:
[02:13] And after I had children, I hired a nanny to help my family, and this case really changed the way that process worked for me.

Speaker 2:
[02:21] Understood.

Speaker 1:
[02:22] Yoselyn Ortega was born in 1962 in the Dominican Republic. She was the second youngest of eight children. In 1985, she graduated with an accounting degree and then moved to New York City where her sister was living. A decade later, she got married and would have one son named Jesus. The marriage only lasted a couple of years, and then she took her son and went back to the Dominican Republic. However, she would then return back to New York in search of work, leaving her four-year-old son in the care of her family. She was a good mother, though. She would travel back and forth to visit her son several times a year, and she also spoke to him daily. In 2008, she even spent a few months in the Dominican Republic with her son. While she was living in New York, she mostly lived with family in various New York City boroughs for a little while, living in the Bronx and then also living in Harlem. Throughout her time in New York, she struggled to find consistent employment. She would sometimes work in factories, she would work for cleaning services, she would do various odd jobs just to stay afloat. Finally, in the spring of 2010, when Yoselyn was 48 years old, she secured some steady employment. She landed in nanny position with the Krim family working for about 25 hours a week, and she was getting paid $18 an hour. Meghan, this was off the books under the table as a lot of nanny positions are. This is pretty good because we're talking over a decade ago $18 an hour cash. Oh yeah. The Krim family had recently moved to New York City from San Francisco about six months before they had met Yoselyn. Now, the reason they moved is because the husband of the Krim family, Kevin Krim, had landed a job at CNBC, where he was a media executive working as a general manager. At the time, his wife Marina was pregnant with their third child. Now, Marina and Kevin had a daughter, Lucia, who they called Lulu, who was six at the time, and they also had a daughter, Nessie, who was three at the time. The couple had been married since 2003 when they met. They were both California natives. She was from Manhattan Beach and he was from Thousand Oaks. She had studied at the University of Southern California and he had studied at Harvard. Then after college, they both ended up back in California. They moved to New York City and they live on the Upper West Side at 57th and Columbus.

Speaker 2:
[04:27] Well, I know that area well.

Speaker 1:
[04:28] Yeah. John Jay was right there.

Speaker 2:
[04:30] Right there.

Speaker 1:
[04:31] Now, we know this area, Meghan. It is a beautiful area. You're very close to Central Park. You're right in the heart of Manhattan. They lived on the second floor of a beautiful apartment building and the family lived a really happy life. Marina was a stay-at-home mother mostly, but she also taught part-time art classes to children. She was a very active blogger. She had this really cute blog called, Life with the Little Krim Kids. You can find this online. I'll put it in the show notes. This was a very cute blog where she would just document their activities and there'd be pictures, and she would just talk about what the family was up to. Keep in mind, Marina was pregnant with their third child, and since Kevin did travel a lot for work, and even when he didn't travel, he would often work 12-hour days. So the family decided, you know, maybe we should hire some help. So one day, while Marina was at Lulu's ballet class, she was very visibly pregnant, and she was approached by a woman by the name of Cecilia Ortega. Cecilia worked as a nanny for another family in the same neighborhood that Marina lived in. Cecilia had told Marina about her sister, Yoselyn, who had previously worked as a nanny, and she was looking for work, and of course, sang her praises that she was great with kids, and I think you'd love her. The Krims soon received a letter of recommendation from a previous employer of Yoselyn's, and it was a glowing account of Yoselyn and her work with children. This reference also spoke to the Krims and answered all their questions and really made them feel comfortable with this choice for their family. Of course, they then interviewed Yoselyn, and after meeting Yoselyn and hearing these references, they decided that she would be a great fit for the family, so they went ahead and hired her to care for their two, soon-to-be-three children. Leo, a healthy baby boy, was born, and things were going well, and Yoselyn was pretty much part of the Krim family. They even took her to the Dominican Republic to visit her family.

Speaker 2:
[06:13] Wow.

Speaker 1:
[06:13] So they paid for a nine-day trip, so they could meet Yoselyn's family, and also Marina and Kevin's children were bilingual, and they thought this was a great way for them to learn Spanish.

Speaker 2:
[06:22] Wow, that's very generous.

Speaker 1:
[06:23] And remember I mentioned Marina's blog?

Speaker 2:
[06:25] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[06:25] It was very evident from these blog posts that they really treated Yoselyn like a member of the family, and she was obviously a very close and trusted person to the Krim family. They often referred to her as Josie. That's what the children called her. In 2012, remember I said Yoselyn had a son who lived in the Dominican Republic. He moved to New York to live with her because she decided it was a good idea for him to finish high school in the states and apply to college here.

Speaker 2:
[06:48] Well, she had a steady income now too, so she probably had more financial means.

Speaker 1:
[06:52] That's absolutely right. So she probably felt like this was a good time for him to come on over. However, some say although this was very happy occasion for Yoselyn, this is when her stress started peaking because this is the first time that her son is in her care full time. And she also insisted that he attend private school. And private school in Manhattan is extremely expensive. So it was clear that education was very important to her. And although the family couldn't afford it, she was determined to send her child to private school. And it was also around this time that she officially became a naturalized US citizen. But things started to unravel a little bit here. The Krims had reportedly begun having issues with some of Yoselyn's work performance. Yoselyn had also told the Krims that she was having financial issues since Jesus arrived, and Marina really wanted to help. Again, Yoselyn was part of the family here. So Marina offered to have Yoselyn do some additional house cleaning for about five hours a week to make some extra money. Now this offer infuriated Yoselyn, who says that she was a nanny and not a housekeeper, and she was very insulted by this idea. But keep in mind, Marina was just trying to help. They would even hire Jesus to care for their dog sometimes. They would also tell their friends that Yoselyn was available to pick up hours. They were clearly trying to help support Yoselyn's financial needs.

Speaker 2:
[08:07] So this sounds very innocent and actually generous, but she interpreted it as thinking that she was superior or something.

Speaker 1:
[08:14] That's what it sounds like. She would say that, I'm not a housekeeper, I'm a babysitter.

Speaker 2:
[08:18] Which in fairness was true also.

Speaker 1:
[08:20] Absolutely.

Speaker 2:
[08:20] But I could see both sides of that one.

Speaker 1:
[08:22] Possibly because of this stress or possibly for some other reason, Yoselyn sought professional help. On October 22, 2012, she saw Dr. Thomas Caffrey, who was a psychologist. Now this was her first time seeking mental health counseling in over 30 years. When she was a teenager, one of her sisters had passed away and she experienced some mental health issues at that time and she had seeked help. So she had had a 45 minute appointment and Yoselyn talked about her recent stress and anxiety. She spoke about the relationship with Jesus and her feelings of failure that went along with caring for him. She told this psychologist that she was overwhelmed by her current situation, both financially and family obligations. Now after the session, it seemed to Dr. Caffrey that Yoselyn had really gotten things off of her chest and she seems to have felt better. And he suggested that she make another appointment. And he did note that she did not appear suicidal or homicidal. And there was no evidence that she was suffering from any delusions or hallucinations. Turns out she never did make that appointment. Three days after that session on October 25th, 2012, Yoselyn was working for the family on what was a seemingly normal workday. Marina had taken their three-year-old daughter, Nessie, to a swim lesson at the nearby YMCA, leaving Lulu and Leo with Yoselyn as she normally would. Now, this was the plan. Yoselyn would be taking the kids to a dance class for Lulu, and Marina and Nessie would meet them at the dance class afterwards. And that's where Marina would pick up the children to head home. However, Ortega never showed at the dance studio, and the dance instructor told Marina that Lulu had not been in class that day. So Yoselyn did, in fact, pick up Lulu at school as she was instructed, but instead of taking her to ballet class, she headed back to the Krim's apartment. A security camera picked up Yoselyn walking down the street with the two children, entering the building just before 4 p.m. Upon entering the Krim's apartment building, Yoselyn asked the doorman, quote, is the mom upstairs? And the doorman had responded that Marina had left. The doorman thought this was a little odd because he says that Yoselyn never really spoke much to him. She would just kind of go on her way. Yoselyn then got into the elevator to head to the second floor apartment. At the time, there was also a neighbor who got into the elevator with the nanny and the two children. Now, this neighbor recalled that the children were playing around and that the little girl looked so happy. She said everything with the nanny seemed normal, but Yoselyn did not say a word to her, but she just smiled and walked out of the elevator. So it was around 5 p.m. when Marina, along with Nessie, realized that Lulu never made it to dance class. So at 5:04 p.m., she had texted Yoselyn, where's Lulu? There was no response. Then she sent a follow-up text in Spanish saying, where are you? To which there was no response. Sixteen minutes later, she texted another, where are you? No response.

Speaker 2:
[11:05] God, she must have been really starting to panic, I think.

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Speaker 1:
[14:38] Marina decided to go home and check and make sure everything was okay. But on her way home, she would continue to text Ortega several times, and now she's getting increasingly concerned. She got to the building around 20 after 5 and headed up to the apartment. She says she opens the door and it was eerily quiet. All the lights were off in the house and she looks around to see what's going on, checked the rooms, checked the kitchen, but she could not find the children or Yoselyn. The only thing she did see was Leo's stroller in the living room with Lulu's dance backpack on top of it. At this point, Marina, who's again still holding Nessie, her three-year-old daughter, she went back downstairs and asked the doorman if the kids and Ortega had left and if he had seen them, but the doorman said he had not seen them leave. Marina went back to the apartment checking again, realizing she had not checked the bathroom. Now, the bathroom was the furthest room from the apartment entrance. So when she walked in, she did notice that there was a sliver of light under the door. So she makes her way to the bathroom screaming the children's names. When she opened the door, she could not believe what she was seeing. She sees her two young children fully clothed, laying in the bathtub covered in blood, and she said she immediately knew that they were deceased. At this time, she also sees Yoselyn sitting on the floor of the bathroom next to the bathtub covered in blood. As soon as Yoselyn saw Marina, she began stabbing herself in the neck. As Marina would describe it, she said, quote, it's like a total horror movie. I walk down the hall and I see the light under the door. I see Lulu. I knew that she was dead. She's lying in the bathtub and her eyes are open. I see Leo next to her. They had blood on them. Then I see the defendant, blood all over her, and eyes bugging out. All I remember saying is, quote, I hate you. She also remembered screaming and described it as, quote, it was a scream you can't imagine is even inside of you. I don't even know where it came from. I just thought I'm never going to be able to talk to them again. They are dead. I just saw my kids dead.

Speaker 2:
[16:28] I can't imagine the absolute horror shock. When we talk about some of these things, we talk about knowing that this happened to your child, but actually seeing this and having to live with this visual.

Speaker 1:
[16:38] I'm the three-year-old daughter at this whole time in her mother's arms.

Speaker 2:
[16:42] The trauma. Yes, trauma. They both must have been.

Speaker 1:
[16:44] Watching this woman stabbing herself alone could be quite traumatic, let alone the fact that you just saw your own children deceased. Several of the neighbors heard blood curdling screams from outside their apartment and called 911 as Marina collapsed on the landing, wailing and screaming that her children were dead. So she lived on the second floor. It was a landing, so the doorman was able to see her from that point. The building superintendent lived directly underneath the Krims and he had been in his first floor apartment when he heard these screams coming from the floor above him shouting, they are dead, they are dead. He ran upstairs and went into the Krims apartment, went to the bathroom and as soon as he opened the door, he saw Yoselyn turn and look right at him. She had been standing facing the bathroom mirror, covered in blood, holding a cloth to her bleeding throat. He recalled the scene, quote, I could see the tub and I could see, I would say bodies or clothing or something. I could see blood. I did my best not to take my eyes off of Ms. Ortega. I saw red. He described her as having, quote, the eyes of the devil. He says he quickly ran to the front door of the apartment and held it shut with both hands with his foot to steady himself and he called down to have the police sent up to the apartment. Remember, she has a husband, Kevin. Now, Kevin Krim was currently on a business trip in San Francisco, California. Now, he was scheduled to return home that evening. Marina attempted to call Kevin as she waited for the paramedics to arrive. He didn't pick up his phone and she left him several voice messages, but all she could do was scream on these voice messages. When emergency services arrived on the scene, Marina was screaming and inconsolable. They entered the apartment and found Ortega bleeding on the floor of the bathroom with knife wounds to her neck, chest, and wrist. However, she was still breathing. Unfortunately, however, the children were unable to be revived. Baby Leo had been stabbed five times and Lucia over 30 times across her neck and her body. Both of their throats were split before they were placed in the bathtub. When the paramedics arrived, the children did not have a pulse and Leo's body was already cold. As is procedure, they still attempted CPR and chest compressions, but the children had lost too much blood at this point. The children were removed from the apartment and pronounced dead upon arrival at St. Luke's Hospital in New York. Marina was escorted out of the building by authorities holding a knife and a knife in her arm and shielded by a white towel. She was transferred in a separate ambulance to the same hospital as the children, and upon arrival at the hospital she was sedated. Yoselyn was admitted in stable but critical condition. She had a fractured vertebrae in the process of stabbing herself in the neck and she was placed in a medically induced coma.

Speaker 2:
[19:12] So Amy, this was a bona fide attempt to kill herself or are we going to discuss that later?

Speaker 1:
[19:15] I want to discuss that later because I'm curious what you think about that. So later that evening, Kevin Krim's plane landed and he says when he turned on his phone, he had dozens of missed calls, texts, and voicemails. Now these texts were all saying, are you okay? And he immediately thinks, oh, I'm flying. Maybe there was a plane crash and they think something happened. Then he hears Marina's voicemail, screaming inconsolable. This poor guy. I heard one account that when the plane landed, the police actually got on the plane to escort him out and at this time he also answered a phone call from his brother-in-law who told him something has happened to the children.

Speaker 2:
[19:49] Yeah, I'm glad. I actually would have hoped that someone would be there to wait for him.

Speaker 1:
[19:53] The police escorted him to St. Luke's Roosevelt Hospital where he was told that Lulu and Leo were dead and that their nanny, Yoselyn Ortega, had murdered them. At this time, he was also reunited with Marina and Nessie. The police had delayed filing charges against Ortega for more than a week while she was intubated and not able to speak as her throat wounds were treated and healed. So aside from stabbing herself in the throat, she had also slit her wrists. So she would remain under police guard this whole time in the hospital, as we would expect. She did finally wake up on November 3rd, and once she woke up, she was able to be interviewed by the police at her hospital bed. She waived her right to have a lawyer present during her questioning.

Speaker 2:
[20:28] Ooh, good.

Speaker 1:
[20:29] Yeah, she didn't ask why she was in the hospital or why an officer was in her hospital room. She didn't ask about the Krims or the children, but she immediately complained to the detectives about Marina Krim.

Speaker 2:
[20:40] Really?

Speaker 1:
[20:40] Yep, at first she admitted to being in the bathroom, but didn't admit to the killings. She told detectives that, quote, Marina knows what happened.

Speaker 2:
[20:47] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[20:48] Then she went on to tell the police that the Krims always told her what to do, and that they were always changing her schedule. She told the police how she told Marina that she needed more money, but Marina wanted her to do five hours of house cleaning every week. She told them she was a babysitter, not a housekeeper, and she also complained that when she would do things wrong, Marina would make a grunting noise to show frustration.

Speaker 2:
[21:10] Wow, these are very minor complaints.

Speaker 1:
[21:12] Yep, just hours after the questioning, she was, not surprisingly, charged with first degree murder in the killings of Lucia, also known as Lulu, and her brother, Leo. Yoselyn's lawyer entered a plea of not guilty.

Speaker 2:
[21:23] By reason of insanity.

Speaker 1:
[21:25] So this gets a little complicated, Meghan.

Speaker 2:
[21:27] It's already complicated, Amy, but...

Speaker 1:
[21:29] Yeah, it's gonna get much more complicated.

Speaker 2:
[21:30] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[21:31] There was a competency hearing in 2013 to determine whether Ortega was fit to stand trial. Judge Caro agreed with the district attorney determining that Ortega was indeed fit to stand trial.

Speaker 2:
[21:42] Because do you know what the criteria is for competency?

Speaker 1:
[21:45] Yes. A defendant has to have basic knowledge of court proceedings and understand the process enough to be able to assist in their own defense.

Speaker 2:
[21:52] Yeah. They have to understand the nature of the charges against them and aid in their own defense. Do you know what case established that? I'm just gonna tell you. Dusky v. United States in 1960.

Speaker 1:
[22:02] Good job, Meghan. I did not remember that date. Now for those of our listeners who are not US citizens or who do not live here, you have a lot of listeners, which is awesome, from other countries. So I want to just take a moment and talk about the fact that a crucial part of due process in our country is that a defendant must be mentally competent prior to standing trial. Now, the Sixth Amendment right is the right to a fair trial and within that, that's where this stuff kind of falls. I already mentioned what it means to be competent, but the competency hearing is much like any other court hearing. You have court-appointed mental health experts who testify and they're also cross-examined. We don't have a jury like we do in a trial, but you have a trial judge who decides whether or not there is a finding of competency or not. You know what a finding of incompetency would mean for a defendant?

Speaker 2:
[22:46] I do. If a defendant is found incompetent, they are moved to a psychiatric facility under mental health care until such time when they are deemed competent to stand trial.

Speaker 1:
[22:57] Perfectly said.

Speaker 2:
[22:58] Thank you.

Speaker 1:
[22:58] And once they are deemed competent, then trial can commence.

Speaker 2:
[23:01] And all court proceedings will resume unless they are never deemed competent.

Speaker 1:
[23:05] And we see that happen.

Speaker 2:
[23:06] Which has happened.

Speaker 1:
[23:08] Yes, where somebody will spend the rest of their life in a psychiatric facility and never get restored to competency.

Speaker 2:
[23:14] In fact, as a side note really quickly here, because it's relevant, Lori Vallow is just deemed incompetent to stand trial. And so it could be years before she goes to court again.

Speaker 1:
[23:25] And a lot of my students, when I teach this, want to know, well, what's the difference between competency and insanity? And we're going to talk a lot about insanity in a minute, but all I will say is that competency is mental state at the time of trial. It took more than four years for the trial to begin. I'm sure you're not surprised by that, Meghan.

Speaker 2:
[23:42] Not at all, actually. I know that sounds like a really long time, but in a really high-profile murder cases, especially where there's a possibility of insanity, there's a lot of motions, there's a lot of evaluations, there's a lot of investigative work. So it's a little longer than usual, but not totally.

Speaker 1:
[23:59] And Yoselyn was evaluated by psychiatrists, of course, for both sides, both the defense and the prosecution several times. To the surprise of many, in 2016, the judge offered a plea deal to Yoselyn. Now this was over the objection of the prosecution, who insisted that the only appropriate sentence was life without parole, and I would agree with that, because this deal would have given her 30 years to life, which really is the minimum sentence for those two counts. Luckily, she rejected the offer.

Speaker 2:
[24:23] Was this during trial?

Speaker 1:
[24:24] This was before trial.

Speaker 2:
[24:26] Okay, I've not heard of that happening very often, where a judge would offer a defendant a plea before a trial commences. Makes this case abnormal and unique in another way.

Speaker 1:
[24:35] This case is unique in several ways. And you're absolutely right. That is a very unique aspect of this case. I'm surprised she rejected the offer. I'm glad that she ended up going to trial. We'll talk about what ended up happening. But I do think that wasn't smart on her defense side to reject that offer.

Speaker 2:
[24:51] Well, it's also possible that the defense gave her the offer and she rejected it. The first thing she said after was not to take responsibility. She blamed Marina. It seems like this is not a woman who is able to or willing to take responsibility.

Speaker 1:
[25:04] She probably did not do her research. It's not a successful defense strategy in most cases. Yoselyn's attorneys pursued the psychiatric defense arguing that she was mentally ill during the acts. On the other hand, the prosecutor argued that she was of sound mind and had planned the murders and she should be held responsible. Okay. The trial finally got underway in 2018 with opening statements beginning on March 1st in a Manhattan Supreme Court. So, again, someone who was living in New York around this time, it was really crazy because most people forgot about this case. I'm sure the Krim family and those who are close to them did not, but it was such a big news story when it happened and then trial took so long and then it kind of reopened everything. The trial was expected to last a long time because there was so much here, but the trial only lasted six weeks, which is short for a case like this. Yoselyn Ortega was charged with two counts of first degree murder and two counts of second degree murder. And again, she would enter a plea of not guilty by reason of insanity.

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Speaker 1:
[27:34] So when we talk about the insanity defense, it is what is known as an affirmative defense. An affirmative defense means that the defendant is saying, yes, I did it, but something else. So we talk to our students all the time about mens rea and actus rea. Actus rea is the act, mens rea is the intent. In our system, in order to be charged with a crime, you have to have both, except there are numerous exceptions which we always talk about. One of them being the insanity defense. So for the insanity defense, this is when a defendant is saying that they are not responsible for their actions due to an episodic or persistent psychiatric disease. And again, this is at the time of the act. Competency is at the time of the trial. Insanity is mental state at the time of the crime. Now, if an individual is found not guilty by reason of insanity, then they are involuntarily confined to a psychiatric hospital. And this could be indefinitely. It's really up to the court to decide when they are released.

Speaker 2:
[28:27] Supposed to be when they are no longer severely mentally ill or no longer dangerous or both. They'll wind up with a term in these cases, especially in these famous cases. They'll wind up with a term that would be as long, if not longer, than the term of incarceration they would have received. And in fact, someone like Hinckley, who attempted to assassinate Reagan, would never get out. Someone like Andrea Yates, who murdered her five children, now gets some time out of prison for a long time. I like to visit a family member supervised after 25 years. So when they actually are quite mentally ill, they do wind up staying in these places for a very long period of time.

Speaker 1:
[29:05] I'm going to start by talking about the prosecution's case and then we'll move into the defense. The prosecution's opening statements argued that Yoselyn felt inadequate that she could not provide for her son in the same manner that the Crims could provide for their children. And because of that, her anxiety and stress increase, which in turn increased her resentment towards Marina. Now you can hear all of this online. The proceedings were recorded. They further argued that Yoselyn deliberately harmed Lulu and Leo in order to hurt Marina. Now the lead prosecutor, who was Stuart Silberg, he says that there's no doubt that this murder was planned. He argued that she resented the Crim so much for the amount of work she had to do. And because she was struggling financially, again, she had to worry about putting her son through high school and the cost of her apartment and the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak, was the fact that Marina tried to help her out by offering her additional money for cleaning on top of the childcare. Now this increased workload served to further enrage Ortega. I said that the prosecution said that she had planned this. Well, where's the evidence?

Speaker 2:
[30:08] Amy, I was thinking just, I knew you're getting there, but where's the proof? There's a lot of ways to show premeditation. Did they do it in any way?

Speaker 1:
[30:15] Well, she did get her affairs in order. She had left a bag of family heirlooms for her son. She asked her sister to raise her son well. She didn't even bring her phone to work that day. It seems like not only was it premeditated, but it does seem like she was intending to kill herself. Okay. Now, Marina was the first witness at Yoselyn's trial. She testified that she saw no signs of mental distress with Yoselyn, and that Yoselyn had never come to her with any issues. However, she did recall a strange incident with Yoselyn that had occurred a few weeks prior to the children being murdered. She told the court that Yoselyn had reacted very strangely when Marina told her she was pregnant with her fourth child. So at first, she says Yoselyn hugged her and was happy for her. But then when the pregnancy ultimately ended in a miscarriage, Yoselyn almost got mad at her and showed no emotion and started acting a little bit different towards Marina. After testifying, a very powerful testimony, at the end she started yelling at Yoselyn, you're gross, you're disgusting. You know, it was very, as you could imagine, very emotional testimony. One of the mental health professionals reported that, although Yoselyn had anxiety and depression, she was not psychotic, nor did she experience a psychotic or dissociative state, and that she was perfectly able to quote, appreciate the consequence and wrongfulness of her actions. So despite her previous claims of psychosis, this expert believed that Ortega was still able to function successfully and normally, which to him implied that she was faking. Do you know about malingering?

Speaker 2:
[31:41] It's faking a mental illness in front of a professional. I remember we took a class in psychology and they talk about the number of ways in which you can detect malingering and how it's a little bit harder than most people might think.

Speaker 1:
[31:54] A lot of people believed that Yoselyn was in fact malingering based on the fact that some of these earlier interviews she talked about, hearing things and seeing things, and she was almost setting herself up for an insanity defense. But then she would say things that would contradict, which we'll get to a little further into some of this trial testimony. At some point, Yoselyn had said that she was hearing things, she was seeing things, the devil made her do it. But most of the time, especially early on, she would say she has no memory at all of what happened to Lulu and Leo. But this doesn't really make sense. And as the prosecution would point out, if she really had no memory of what happened to them, you would think that she would ask about them when she woke up in the hospital after she was being treated. She never asked about the children at all, and the prosecution would argue, well, this is because she knows what happens to the children, and she does indeed have a memory of the event.

Speaker 2:
[32:46] I understand that. I don't think that's the strongest point for me yet, but that's a point.

Speaker 1:
[32:50] I found the defense a lot more interesting. So the defense argued that she suffered from severe depression and experienced paranoid delusions and hallucinations, and this possibly goes back as far as the 70s when she had her first experience with mental health issues. The defense argued that she's had mental health issues since that time, and she was just never treated. The defense also claimed that Yoselyn kept this to herself. So in other words, she kept her mental health issues to herself, and she didn't tell anyone. However, in the weeks leading up to the murder, she was hearing voices, and she said some of these voices she believed belonged to Satan who told her to kill the children. A few of Yoselyn's friends also testified that she did seem erratic and quote off complaining of shadows following her, and that there was a quote black man trying to break up her family. The defense also called several friends who spoke about two previous incidences of quote mental breakdowns. Now, this is a dated term. We no longer use this term, but really it's just a term that's used to describe a period of extreme emotional and or mental distress that prevents one from daily functioning. Her friends say she went through this in 1978 when she lost her sister, and then again in 2008 when she lost a close friend. At these times, she became paranoid and displayed some erratic behavior. Remember I mentioned there were several pretrial interviews with many different mental health professionals between the time of arrest and trial. So in 2016 is when she claimed she heard these voices of the devil telling her to kill Lulu and Leo. Then she would later retract and deny she ever said that, but it was on record that she said that. Ortega said that she never heard voices in general, which is a blatant contradiction of what she had told the psychiatrist on the defense team a few years prior. Now these videos were shown to the jury and they did undermine her insanity defense.

Speaker 2:
[34:39] I could see why the jury would have a problem with that.

Speaker 1:
[34:41] I totally agree. Two psychiatrists for the defense testified that Ortega had a psychotic break at the time of the murders and had entered a dissociative state.

Speaker 2:
[34:50] A dissociative state is one where there's an unconscious detachment from the situation. They're saying that she completely detached.

Speaker 1:
[34:58] You might recognize one of the psychiatrists who testified here. His name was Dr. Philip Resnick. Does that name sound familiar at all?

Speaker 2:
[35:05] Philip Resnick doesn't, but Fay Resnick does.

Speaker 1:
[35:07] Okay, so Philip Resnick testified in the Unabomber case and in the trial of James Holmes. Do you remember who James Holmes is?

Speaker 2:
[35:14] Oh, yeah, of course. Oh, my goodness.

Speaker 1:
[35:16] Yeah, he was the Colorado movie theater shooter, the Batman.

Speaker 2:
[35:19] He was, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[35:20] Yeah, so this is, you know.

Speaker 2:
[35:22] And obviously the Unabomber, Ted Kaczynski.

Speaker 1:
[35:23] Yes, of course. Yeah. So this guy is really-

Speaker 2:
[35:26] Long history.

Speaker 1:
[35:27] He's really renowned forensic psychiatrist who testifies in some pretty high-profile cases. The other forensic psychiatrist who testified was Dr. Karen Rosenbaum. The prosecution grilled Dr. Rosenbaum on cross, asking her why she hadn't interviewed anyone outside of the Ortega family. Because they interviewed Ortega's niece, Jacqueline. Meghan, remember that reference letter that landed Yoselyn the job?

Speaker 2:
[35:51] Yes, and I remember the question I was going to ask you then, but go ahead.

Speaker 1:
[35:54] Okay. Well, it turns out that it was Yoselyn's niece who wrote it. But guess what? She didn't even have children, Yoselyn's niece.

Speaker 2:
[36:01] No, I had a feeling it was a fake. I just want to say it, I did.

Speaker 1:
[36:04] Because she ended up being a witness for the defense, but the prosecution totally discredited her because they were like, oh, wait a minute, aren't you the one who wrote the fake reference letter and kind of started this whole thing?

Speaker 2:
[36:14] And if Dr. Rosenbaum was relying on someone who is already lying, then the credibility of the findings can be discredited.

Speaker 1:
[36:23] That is exactly right. Thank you for making that clear, Meghan. I think the prosecution did a really good job of trying to, you know, discredit this doctor. Also, the prosecution ended up pushing her into acknowledging that Ortega never mentioned hearing voices or having visual or auditory hallucinations to either the family or the defense psychiatrist until after the killings.

Speaker 2:
[36:44] Okay. That's another piece of the puzzle.

Speaker 1:
[36:46] It goes without saying, this trial focused on the insanity defense. And that's one of the reasons the case took so long between the initial competency hearing in 2013 and the actual trial in 2018, because the defense was trying to build this case. And clearly was falling apart for them. Ortega showed no emotion or any indication of remorse during the whole trial. I believe she shed one tear at one point, but it was when something had to do with her, not with the murders of the children. Ortega's son, who was now 22, remember Jesus, he took the stand to testify in defense of his mother. He referred to the murder at one point as a, quote, accident. The prosecution went off on him, yelling, did you just say accident? He then corrected himself and said, I mean, what happened? He basically just testified that his mother loved the children immensely and that she never confided in him that she was hearing voices or anything like that. On April 18th, 2018, after just two days of deliberations, the jury found that 55-year-old Yoselyn Ortega was guilty of two counts of first degree murder and two counts of second degree murder. Meghan, I know we've talked about this when we were talking about the George Floyd case or the Derek Chauvin trial. How can she be simultaneously guilty of first degree murder and also second degree murder? Can we explain this to our listeners? Because even as people who work in the field, it confuses us.

Speaker 2:
[38:05] It is actually confusing and it was a question or it's something I've had to think about before myself. So what happens is I'll use the George Floyd as just a brief comparison. So Derek Chauvin was found guilty of second degree murder, third degree murder and manslaughter. And so, gosh, what does that mean? How could he be found guilty of the same crime on some people might say is that double jeopardy, but it's not. So essentially what that means is that the convictions are merged into one, if she's found guilty on all of them. It's not concurrent, it's not multiple convictions. What happens is that the highest charge for which she's convicted will be the one for which she's sentenced. If she's only convicted of second degree murder, the other ones don't apply. If she's convicted on all, she might get an appeal, let's say on the first degree murder charge, but then second degree murder will stand. Regardless, for sentencing purposes, it all becomes the same conviction.

Speaker 1:
[39:01] So it's more like a strategy to ensure that this woman never sees the light of day, in case there was something with the trial that they would try to appeal on grounds of something. Yeah. Okay. The jury clearly rejected Ortega's defense claim of insanity and mental incompetence. We know that every state has different standards. So in New York, the defense has to prove that Ortega did not know right from wrong or understand the consequences of her actions at the time that she committed the crime. Now, this can be difficult to determine because people who have serious mental illnesses can also have an understanding of their actions.

Speaker 2:
[39:32] That's correct.

Speaker 1:
[39:33] Either way, Yoselyn's found guilty. She shows no emotion when the verdict was read. She did wipe a tear from her eye as she exited the courtroom. But in May 2018, the judge showed no mercy on Yoselyn and centered her to life in prison without the possibility of parole. At the sentencing hearing, Marina and Kevin both spoke. And Meghan, it's impossible to listen to.

Speaker 2:
[39:55] I don't imagine there's a dry eye on the court.

Speaker 1:
[39:57] Nope. You can hear it online if you want to. Kevin does a really beautiful tribute to the children. And both of them are just so strong when they're talking. They gave these beautiful memorials to their children and told the judge what this has done to them. Meanwhile, before receiving her sentence, Yoselyn Ortega was also allowed to make a statement. She apologized for, quote, what happened. And she stated that she hoped that nobody ever has to go through what she had gone through. Wow. And she asked for forgiveness from God. Wow. So the judge was clearly incensed by her lack of remorse and just blatant disregard for what had happened. Judge Carrow, who presided over the case, he acknowledged that Ortega did have an untreated mental illness. And it may have played a role in what happened that day. But the fact that she had the forethought to try and kill herself shows that she had some mental cogency and that she had some form of a mental health problem. And the judge went on to blame Yoselyn and her family for not getting her the help she needed to treat her mental illness. Okay, let's end this episode on a happier note because this case is really just so brutal. After the murders, Marina and Kevin set up the Lulu and Leo Fund, which is a nonprofit charity organization that offers parents and schools a creativity curriculum based on the 10 principles of creativity. Now, this is all in order to inspire, heal and grow children through art, nature and creativity, especially in disadvantaged communities. Now, according to Kevin Krim, the fund, quote, empowers children and adults with the skills and confidence they need to have resilience in the face of hardship and to thrive in an ever-changing world. He explains how they started this fund in those early days to honor the creative and two brief lives of Leo and Lulu. Now, as you probably guessed, the two children loved the arts and they were very creative. And, you know, Marina was also an art teacher, so this was very important for them. On their fund's social media pages, which I follow them all, the CRIMS posts photos of Lulu and Leo, as well as photos of their new family. They have since had two more children. It was just a couple of months ago where it would have been Lulu's 15th birthday, and there was a really beautiful tribute posted for her.

Speaker 2:
[42:04] You sound like nice people.

Speaker 1:
[42:05] In 2018, New York Governor Andrew Cuomo signed Lulu and Leo's law into practice as a direct result of the murders. Specifically, Yasmine Ortega's refusal to divulge pertinent mental health information and her use of the false references. Basically, this law makes it a crime to misrepresent a caregiver's qualifications and experiences. This is all about guaranteeing the safety of children.

Speaker 2:
[42:29] I think everyone can get behind that one.

Speaker 1:
[42:31] Absolutely. It was really Kevin and Marina who pushed for this to happen. They're very vocal and Kevin wrote in a post that the main goal of this law was deterrence as well as providing a tool for prosecutors to quote, hold dangerous people who shouldn't be around kids and their co-conspirators accountable because they really focused on the fact that the family knew Yoselyn had mental health issues and they lied about her credentials and those two things together really led to this tragedy. The bill makes doctoring your resume with false qualifications a misdemeanor punishable by up to six months in jail. Now as far as I could find Ortega is still serving her prison sentence and of course she has no possibility of parole.

Speaker 2:
[43:09] What was her diagnosis? They said she had psychotic breaks detachment because of past trauma but I never got like a specific diagnosis because they didn't have one. Yeah, I believe that it's possible that she might have had issues with her mental health. Also let's not go ahead and say every person who has mental health issues goes on to commit this type of crime. If I had to render a judgment just based on and I don't know this case very well or not as well as you did but I would say she's culpable. There was certainly planning there unhealthy coping mechanisms from a woman who had extreme sounds like anger and resentment and I think I really think she was just very jealous of the life that her employer had and she was sort of triggered by this event and saw everything kind of collapsing around her but it does sound like it was premeditated and I bet my life that no voice has told her to do it.

Speaker 1:
[43:57] You had asked the question a moment ago like what was the diagnosis that they were really hanging on and they really just said that she suffered from severe depression and had experienced paranoid delusions and hallucinations. They almost made it sound like it was an episodic thing more so than a regular consistent or persistent condition. Yeah, absolutely right.

Speaker 2:
[44:15] Which can happen but I just don't see the proof in it to be honest. I always go back to the Andrea Yates case where they were able to show that she had a long history of these psychotic delusions reported and over and over again. So that's what I see as almost like a standard for the defense.

Speaker 1:
[44:32] Do you think that the system got it right? It sounds like you do.

Speaker 2:
[44:34] I do think the system got it right based on this information. I would probably say so. It sounds like the Krims are... It sounds like, well, they'll never move on. They've done great things to memorialize their children. They have moved on in some ways. They just sound like a positive... I just give them a lot of credit. It sounds like they did the thing where they brought positive out of their tragedy.

Speaker 1:
[44:56] They do really amazing work at their organization called Choose Creativity, and that's powered by the Lulu and Leo Fund. If you'd like to donate to this amazing fund, you can go to choosecreativity.org. You can also donate through their various social media, such as Facebook and Instagram. We'll also have a link in our show notes. Before we end today, I just want to take a moment. This case really highlights the importance of getting help for yourself or your loved ones who are suffering from a mental illness. If you suspect that someone close to you is experiencing difficulties managing their mental health, the first step really is to recognize the signs. As we saw in this case, Yoselyn was suffering from something and she didn't seek help. She kept it to herself. Whether or not that's true, it doesn't matter. What it does is it highlights the importance of helping those who are experiencing some of these issues. What are some of the signs of somebody who is having difficulty managing their mental health? I'm not going to read off all of them, but if you notice anyone eating or sleeping too much or too little, pulling away from people or usual activities, having low or no energy, having unexplained feelings of helplessness or hopelessness, smoking, drinking, or using drugs more so than they would usually, hearing voices, of course, talking about harming themselves. One of the first steps is recognizing these signs. It's very important to express support and reassurance showing that you are there to help someone and also connecting someone to help, because sometimes people need help making that first step.

Speaker 2:
[46:26] Amy, can we give one example of how someone might be able to connect another or help connect another one with help?

Speaker 1:
[46:32] Yeah, so I think it depends on the severity of the situation, of course, right? So if it's someone who is in extreme distress, and they could be a harm to themselves or somebody else, then of course you want to connect them to emergency services who can place them in the right facility that can help them.

Speaker 2:
[46:45] But this can also be an instance, and I don't want to go on, but this can also be like when we talk about school shooters and when I teach about them, there are a lot of red flags where kids say, I wish I just would have told the teacher or I heard something. So when you say connect to help, this could be as simple as alerting a family member, alerting a friend, alerting a teacher.

Speaker 1:
[47:03] Yeah, it's like New York's campaign after 9-11. If you see something, say something.

Speaker 2:
[47:07] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[47:08] It's so simple, but so true. If you feel like somebody you know is just not quite acting like themselves, you're better safe than sorry. Of course, educating yourself and other people on mental health issues, but really just always respecting people, having compassion and empathy, like just being open to helping others is a good place to start. Thank you all for listening, I'll catch you next time on Women and Crime. I have to tell you something that I came across, Meghan, that caused me pause. So I was doing a search on the Krim family to see what they were doing. Mostly I was interested in what their organization was doing. They have an amazing foundation that we'll talk about again in just a moment. And I found that The Post recently reported a story, but the story was about the apartment where the murder occurred. And the whole story was that it was being offered for a discount price for $8,750 per month, which was down nearly 30% from the $12,000 per month that it was back in 2008. Oh, jeez. And I wondered, why was this news? Does the family need to be constantly reminded of what happened? And then I started thinking, what purpose does an article like this serve? And I was curious if you had any thoughts about that. Because as you could imagine, the article wasn't focused on the housing market. That would have made sense. Because then the article went into graphic detail about the horrific crimes that occurred in that apartment.

Speaker 2:
[48:42] And that's the purpose of the article, to go into salacious, horrific details.

Speaker 1:
[48:46] Yes. And I was just thinking like, and that just happened recently within a couple of months ago. And I was just thinking, this poor family, it's like people are constantly just talking about the wrong things. The Post should be highlighting the incredible work that their foundation is doing.

Speaker 2:
[49:02] I agree.

Speaker 1:
[49:03] Okay, anyway, let's get into some more relevant areas. It should come as no surprise that Yoselyn Ortega remains in prison, serving two consecutive life sentences without parole. There have been no successful appeals or major legal developments reported since her 2018 conviction. Her case is legally closed. There's no parole eligibility and no scheduled release, which I don't think will come as much of a surprise. Right. Now the Krim family continues to run the Lulu and Leo Fund, which was created after the horrific murders. As a reminder, the organization supports arts, nature, and creative programming for children and also has a community healing and resilience initiative. Their primary initiative, Choose Creativity, empowers teachers, children, and families to build resilience, creative confidence, and social emotional skills through their Learn with Creative Confidence curriculum. They work with school communities to provide high quality bilingual programming to combat a multitude of challenges by creating a culture of self-efficacy, resilience, and empathy. Since its inception, they have reached over 30,000 students and have trained almost 2,000 instructors.

Speaker 2:
[50:19] Wow, that's awesome.

Speaker 1:
[50:21] Yeah, doing incredible work. So again, check them out at choosecreativity.org. You can find out what they're doing and donate. While there hasn't been any legal changes since this case, there have been a few broader trends such as an increased focus on background checks for caregivers. It seems that more agencies require criminal checks and references, but I would say overall, it's still a largely unregulated industry. Oh, okay. But I think this case continues to raise deeper questions that don't have easy answers. One of the most central is the role of mental illness. Recall, at trial, the defense argued that Yoselyn was experiencing severe psychiatric symptoms such as hallucinations, paranoia, and a break from reality. The prosecution argued that despite those issues, that she understood what she was doing and that it was wrong. This is where the law and criminology don't always align neatly. Because the legal standard for insanity is extremely low. It essentially asks, did the person know what they were doing and did they know it was wrong? But from a clinical perspective, mental illness is much more complex than that. Someone can have a fragmented or distorted perception of reality, but still in some sense, understand their actions and their wrongfulness. I think cases like this sit in that, I guess that gray area between these legal categories and the reality, the psychological realities.

Speaker 2:
[51:50] Yeah, I would agree.

Speaker 1:
[51:51] Another aspect that continues to stand out is the role of caregiving. Because Yoselyn wasn't a stranger to the victims. She was a trusted nanny who was a part of their family. I think that's one of the reasons that this case was so shocking. But it also points to something that we don't talk about often, and that is the structure of domestic labor. These caregivers often work in private homes with very little oversight. They're responsible for children, usually both physically and emotionally.

Speaker 3:
[52:21] They work long hours.

Speaker 1:
[52:23] There's often financial and emotional, personal stresses, and there's not access to support systems, especially when these caregivers don't have families nearby.

Speaker 2:
[52:33] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[52:33] So obviously, this doesn't explain what happened, but it could provide some sort of context and underscore the fact that we just need more support in some of these understudied areas.

Speaker 2:
[52:45] Absolutely.

Speaker 1:
[52:46] And then lastly, there's the issue of expectations. Crimes involving caregivers, especially women, tend to generate a particular kind of public reaction. And this is something that we talked about recently at our panel at Notre Dame.

Speaker 2:
[52:59] Right.

Speaker 1:
[53:00] You know, often we talk about how women can be judged not just for what they do, but for how far they deviate from gender expectations. Obviously, there's the horrific act itself, but there's such a strong sense of betrayal because it violates deeply held expectations about nurturing protection and caregiving. Okay. Lastly, I think another one of the reasons this case continues to resonate is because it disrupts a core assumption that home is supposed to be our safe place. And this wasn't a public crime. It didn't happen in a context that people associate with danger, such as the dark alley or, you know, the isolated park. It happened in one of the most private, trusted environments. And that's unsettling because it challenges this idea that risk is something external, something that we can easily identify or control. Right. Okay, so all of that aside, as we close, let's return this to Lulu and Leo, the two children at the center of this case. It's easy for us to get pulled into the legal questions and the psychological questions, the why, something we always talk about, why did this happen? But at the core, this case is about two young lives that were lost and a family that continues to live with this incredible loss every day. So while the legal system has reached its conclusion, the impact of this case is ongoing and will forever be. So let's end by remembering these children, again, not part of just this legal case, but as children who were deeply loved and are deeply missed. Thank you all for listening to this episode of Reconsidered, and we will catch you next time on Women and Crime.

Speaker 2:
[54:37] Women and Crime is written and hosted by Meghan Sacks and Amy Shlosberg. Our producer and editor is James Varga. Music composition is by Dessert Media. If you enjoy the show, please remember to subscribe and leave a review. You can also support the show while gaining access to ad-free episodes, exclusive AMAs, and other bonus content for a small monthly contribution for Patreon. For more information, visit patreon.com/women and crime.

Speaker 1:
[55:21] Sources for today's episode include New York Times, CNN, New York Daily News, New York Magazine, ABC News, New York Post, People Magazine, The Associated Press, medium.com, lululeofun.kindfold.com, littlemisslucia.livejournal.com, choosecreativity.org and MentalHealth.gov. Hey, small business owners, let's talk about how Found can help you wrangle your finances once and for all. When was the last time you felt like you had your business finances totally under control? Every expense categorized, every receipt tracked, every invoice sent? Oh, and you were prepared for tax season? If the answer is never, you are not alone and that's what Found is for. Found eliminates the clutter by giving you one platform that handles it all, banking, bookkeeping, invoices and taxes. Found makes it easy to regain control of your business finances so that you can get back to doing what you love. Found understands the unique challenges that face small business owners and entrepreneurs, and these features are all integrated into a robust business checking account. Found automatically tracks expenses, which means that I no longer have to carve out time every week, and this is time that I can spend on doing things that are much more important and enjoyable. I don't need to carve out this time to go through my purchases and make sure that everything is accounted for. And the best part is, if tax season stresses you out as much as it stresses me out, you'll be thrilled to know that Found estimates your taxes and helps you set money aside. I basically replaced three apps with Found and I don't miss the stress at all. I've never felt more in control of my business finances. If I could go back to when I was starting my business, Found would have saved so much time, time that I could have spent doing other things that were important to grow the podcast. Take back control of your business today. Open a Found account for free at found.com. That's found.com. Found is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services are provided by lead bank member FDIC. Join the hundreds of thousands who've already streamlined their finances with Found.