transcript
Speaker 1:
[00:04] What's up, Internet, and welcome back to The Engadget Podcast. I'm Senior Editor, Devindra Hardwarke. This week joined by Deputy Editor, Nathan Ingraham. Hey, Nate, how's it going?
Speaker 2:
[00:11] Good morning. Can't complain.
Speaker 1:
[00:13] Good morning.
Speaker 2:
[00:14] All is well here outside of Boston, Marathon Week.
Speaker 1:
[00:16] You're not sick like me, Nate.
Speaker 2:
[00:18] I'm not sick like you.
Speaker 1:
[00:19] Oh, man. Also podcast producer Ben Elman is here. Hey, Ben.
Speaker 3:
[00:22] Hey, everybody. I just got all the shots that I should have gotten in November, so fingers crossed.
Speaker 1:
[00:28] Fingers crossed. But yeah, you know what? I definitely did not have time to get my flu shot last year, and maybe I'm feeling it. Maybe some things hit harder than they should have. We're going to be talking about the big news this week, which is that Tim Cook announced that he is stepping down from the CEO role at Apple on September 1st. He's going to be replaced by John Ternus, and John Ternus is the head of hardware engineering right now. Basically, the head product guy, the head hardware guy. Very interesting choice there. So we'll be talking about all of that. As always, folks, if you're enjoying the show, please be sure to subscribe to us on iTunes or your podcast of choice. Leave us a review on iTunes and drop us an email at podcastengadget.com, and we'll live stream Thursday mornings, typically around 1030 a.m. Eastern on our YouTube channel when we can, whatever is possible if, you know, things get in the way sometimes. But I do like doing it, and I like seeing the people in the chat, so join us for that. So yeah, Tim Cook officially stepping down as Apple CEO. This is something that's been rumored since last fall, and since last fall, I believe it was the Financial Times who reported it first, John Ternus was like up there as a potential contender, and it's kind of an interesting choice, like on the face of it. We've always known Tim Cook as the logistics guy. He was previously to being the CEO and also taking over as CEO a couple of times before Steve Jobs passed away, like he came in during sick leave. He was the COO of Apple, Chief Operations Officer. He was the guy dealing with logistics. He was the guy who I think famously, like shortly after he started, he shut down a lot of factories, he shut down a lot of like extra inventory they kept around and streamlined Apple's operations so that they were shipping products basically more directly to consumers, saving a lot of money in the long run. He's the logistics guy, not exactly a creative product guy in the way that Jobs was, you know, championed. John Ternus is a product guy. John Ternus is a designer. He initially started Apple doing, I believe the studio monitor, the studio display, but went on to do AirPods, Apple Watch, eventually iPhone, and he became SVP mid the pandemic, I believe it was like 2021. So he became the top top hardware guy. And something I noticed is that at the MacBook Neo launch a couple of months ago, it was all John Ternus. It was launched all John Ternus all the time. He was the one who introduced the MacBook Neo. He was on stage. He was doing interviews for Good Morning America. And typically that's Tim Cook. Typically Tim Cook is the face of the company for a big new product. I've got a lot more about to say about what the Neo kind of represents. But Nate, what do you think of this move, first of all?
Speaker 2:
[03:15] Yeah, I think that they kind of soft launched Ternus with the Neo launch and a little bit over the last couple of years, like he's been on their videos more. He's a pretty solid presenter. I think he's a good face for the company. And I think it's interesting, like you said, obviously going to a guy who's more focused on product. But yeah, as far as Cook goes, yeah, I think you could see that he didn't try to be Steve Jobs pretty much right off the bat, both in terms of like holding court for 90 minutes about new products. He was more the kind of CEO who would announce something and then get out of the way and let the people who know about it talk about it, like take the Apple Watch. That was the first big new product launched under his direction. Obviously he was the guy who came out, he was wearing it, he introduced it, he talked about it, and then he stepped aside and let the people who did the engineering and the software be the ones who really told us how it would work, which is totally different than what Steve Jobs did. So I'd say democratize the keynote a bit, which is just a tonal shift. I expect that will continue. I don't think Ternus is going to be the kind of like singular, like I don't think Apple is that company anymore. They don't need to have like a singular vision guy. They're big enough and have enough diverse, different parts that like it makes sense to show those people off and you'll get the next Ternus' spotlight, right?
Speaker 3:
[04:34] On top of that, like why would you even make someone do the heavy lift of carrying the whole announcement on their back, right? Like you could just have the situation where they do a little part and then you have the drone fly up and go to the other part of the Apple campus and then another Apple VP does their part. It just makes sense from a logistical Cook sort of perspective.
Speaker 1:
[05:00] Logistical, yeah, but the thing about, if you guys remember the Steve Jobs Keynotes, it was the magic, right? It was the magic of his aura, him as a presenter, watching him show off these products, like his cult of personality was Apple. So that him practicing to do the keynote and everything, that's the job to sell the dream of Apple. And we did kind of lose that a little bit and probably for the better, right? Like Jobs famously, also a giant asshole, not the nicest person in the world, but he lived and breathed his company and thought deeply about what his products could do and what they meant. There's some reporting from Mark Gurman at Bloomberg this week that Ternus is a more decisive decision maker than Tim Cook was. Like Tim Cook apparently was more of a consensus guy. Like if it came down to a product decision, he would like ask around, see what people thought, kind of gather the consensus. Interesting parallel. Ternus is more decisive in the guy who will just like make a decision. And that was something Jobs was famously known for. And there's some stuff you can read into that, like what that could mean for the future, could it lead to maybe Apple taking some slightly bigger risks, or at least some interesting choices when it comes to products. And I think the Neo is certainly a good representative of that, right? Because first of all, they've done some amazing stuff. While Ternus was the head of hardware, he was the guy basically in charge of all the MacBook redesigns around the M-series chips.
Speaker 2:
[06:33] I mean, I know he's not the chip guy, but like he was part of the product team that made that a thing.
Speaker 1:
[06:40] I mean, he was leading essentially the product team that made that. John Sruge, who is like the chip guy and the guy really responsible for Apple Silicon, he has a new role at the company as well. So he's still going to be sticking around. I think there were some worries that he would leave, and that would be a bad thing because Apple Silicon has been so, I don't know, so good for them. But yeah, Ternus led the redesign of these Macs. I don't think we've had any complaints, right? Like they fixed the problems with the MacBooks. They turned the Mac Mini into something that's genuinely desirable and useful, and I think a really good deal as far as competing goes. The Mac Studio has became like this tremendous thing, and they're retiring the Mac Pro because the Mac Studio itself is so good. But the Mac Neo is interesting because it's a risky thing for Apple, right? It's the cheapest computer they've ever made. It's also both trying to make an affordable device that feels premium and has compromises. It has only 8GB of RAM and has a cell phone processor in it. And yet, because of those choices, because of those design choices, and the fact that Apple has such a strong handle on its own software, like that marriage of hardware and software, they can produce something like the Neo that no PC maker can, right? Any $600, any $800 Windows laptop is a terrible experience on. You really have to hit the $1,000 mark. And the Neo is like, hey, Apple can be cheap and still be good. And maybe this is a vision of the future, maybe a more open, accessible Apple. To me, that's a good sign for Ternus at least.
Speaker 2:
[08:16] Yeah, the Neo, I mean, we talked about this a month ago, obviously represents a complete change in direction for Apple as they just never bothered to compete at a less than premium price point. And I think the old adage, you know, I think Joanne Sterne coined this one, which was when she was reviewing laptops last decade, she would say, oh, for $200 or more, you can get a MacBook Air with the implication that you spend a little more and you get a better experience. And now that's flipped because you can spend less and get a better experience than a comparable Windows PC. I don't know that Ternus is going to push that mentality across their product lineup, but I also don't think they have to because most, you know, the iPad already has one that starts at $349. The Apple Watch SE continues to be a really good value for people who want a more basic experience. Obviously the iPhone is a little pricier, but you know, I think in this economy, getting the 17E for less than it's at now isn't really feasible. So they've got the entry level pretty well covered. It's not that it's cheap, but you're going to get a lot even for something that's more affordable.
Speaker 1:
[09:27] Yeah, and they don't always need to be at the entry level. It's more like doing something different, right? Doing something that Apple really hasn't done before. I think that's kind of an interesting choice. I'm also thinking of things people are looking at now. A lot of parents are interested in tracking where their kids are. A lot of people are using the Apple Watch for that. I could foresee something that's a little more child-oriented, like an Apple Watch that is maybe a little smaller and a little more kid-friendly and maybe a little more durable, but you can use that as part of your Apple Watch family plan and have a sense of like where everybody in your family is. When we talked about Apple turning 50 a couple weeks ago, the idea of Apple as a personal computing company, I think really hits home. And like the MacBook Neo, that's a truly personal computer. That is a $600 device that does most of what people need. For students, it's a $500 device. I don't think that's the way Microsoft is thinking now. I don't think that's the way most other, even PC companies think now. They're trying to like, they think in terms of specs. They think less in terms of user experience. I'm just interested. I'm interested in like what a product guy could do now. Because what it, you know, Tim Cook had some hit devices, right? The AirPods ended up being hit. The Apple Watch was not initially a hit, but became kind of a big deal over time. And then there's the Vision Pro, which was like the big swing for a lot of people. And that didn't really go anywhere. But I also don't, I don't know if that's like indicative of bad leadership. That just seems like they tried and not everything's gonna work, right?
Speaker 3:
[11:02] I mean, even when it was announced, we were like, is this meant to go anywhere? This is priced at being a dev kit.
Speaker 1:
[11:09] It's a dev kit.
Speaker 2:
[11:10] It's one of those situations where they had to put their foot in the water and see, I think all the companies doing that have figured out that there still isn't that like compelling killer app for such hardware. So it's gonna continue to be a niche thing. But, you know, I'm sure there's stuff that they're learning about the way people use it, that they can bring to future products as well. So yeah, it's very much like, it reminds me of how they called, and this is a completely different product lineup, but I think Jobs called the Apple TV hardware a hobby for like a decade, right? I guess he wasn't a lot that long, but you know what I mean? He called it a hobby for years. I think Cook even did after Jobs passed away.
Speaker 1:
[11:49] He never understood the Apple TV, I think, they released entertainment as a thing.
Speaker 2:
[11:54] Yeah, I mean, that's actually something we didn't talk about with Cook, is that he led the big push into entertainment in a broader sense of services, right? Like Apple TV has been a big deal. Apple Music is the second biggest streaming service, I believe, behind Spotify, obviously. Then you've got stuff like Fitness Plus, there's the whole iCloud or Apple One subscription, all these ways. I've seen the chart where it shows the service is growing in the last decade plus, and it's just crazy how that's the second biggest part of the company now behind the iPhone.
Speaker 1:
[12:29] Yeah, I mean, those are recurring fees, and they also lock in your customers. It's like the perfect bit of a capitalist loop, right? Like you're paying something over and over again. Also, you don't want to leave if you actually like the service and also makes you stay within the hardware and within the family, and maybe buy more. So yeah, perfect storm there. Apple TV is not the best streaming service, but they have put a lot of money into it. They have produced some really good shows, and I don't think it's an abject failure compared to something like Peacock, which just felt like a desperate move from NBC.
Speaker 3:
[13:06] So let me prognosticate a little bit. There is a possibility that things move around in the entertainment industry in the next like three to five years, especially given the paramount acquisition of WB and everything, which includes HBO. There could be an opening for an HBO sometime soon, because what if HBO doesn't act like HBO or the HBO that we need?
Speaker 1:
[13:35] What do you mean?
Speaker 3:
[13:36] I'm saying that Apple TV+ could slide into that niche if it's allowed to, if it's continued to be watered in the same way that it was watered under Tim Cook.
Speaker 1:
[13:49] I mean, it could be. HBO has that brand. That's the thing. Whatever happens with the Warner Discovery sale and everything, it's going to be a huge mess. But I was always thinking it would be really interesting if Apple was one of those people considering WB. I always felt like Netflix, we talked about this, Netflix would have been the better choice, and we'll see kind of where things go from here.
Speaker 3:
[14:14] Of bad options.
Speaker 1:
[14:16] Of bad options.
Speaker 2:
[14:17] Sure. Yeah. But we're all doing, I would have, I would have much rather seen Netflix take them over.
Speaker 1:
[14:22] Apple has been actually pretty concerned, like they've spent a lot of money, but they have not gone, like, I don't know, as hardcore as Netflix or other folks have in terms of like the amount of stuff they're producing. They're spending a lot of money on selection.
Speaker 2:
[14:35] I like that, though, like, I prefer the slower cadence, like, it's easier to keep track of, like, it doesn't need to be flooded with stuff because, you know, there's only so many hours in the day, right? But yeah, it'll be interesting to see.
Speaker 3:
[14:48] All killer, no filler still is a viable business strategy.
Speaker 2:
[14:52] We'll see. Yeah, coming back to the CEO stuff, it'll be interesting to see how much Ternus values this stuff. I imagine he will probably just, like, get out of the way and let the people who know that side of the business do it rather than trying to, like, impose anything, right? Like, he knows it's not his lane necessarily.
Speaker 1:
[15:10] But as a product guy, nothing much has happened with the Apple TV recently. I do wonder, like, what choices can be made there? Could there be a dongle at some point? Although, they've made those partnerships with TV manufacturers, so essentially most, every platform can get the Apple TV app, so they did the hard work of getting it out there. I do wonder what else. I do wonder what else is possible. Dongles are annoying. Dongles are a pain in the butt, but a $50 thing that runs all your Apple TV stuff and lets you airplay to any screen could be kind of interesting, especially because you see...
Speaker 2:
[15:46] I feel like they're content to just let the Rokus of the world offer the $50 thing and just make our platforms on it. We can get our subscription fees or people renting movies or whatever from it and then just focus on a more, a slightly higher and higher product.
Speaker 1:
[16:02] I will say though, like when I go on vacation, I yank out an Apple TV and I bring it with me because it's so much easier just to like bring your whole set up with you to another location. Dongles make that easier. Certainly not a big cash cow for them. I do want to point out that Dan Cooper and Engadget wrote a really good piece, Here's to the Stable Ones and Praise of Tim Cook, where he talks about the fact that Tim Cook's more like, he is less volatile than Steve Jobs. He is a more stable businessman. He has certainly, you know, Apple's revenues since Tim Cook took over have exploded. Like they are one of the most valuable companies in the world. And much of that is due to Tim Cook's logistical prowess there. Also, they've just made good products too, so that's really helped. I think this is a really good piece from Dan, and he even mentions the more disappointing points. We've talked about this, Tim Cook bowing to the Trump administration, giving him the gold trophy. It is wild that Donald Trump tweeted in praise of Tim Cook this week, a very long screed amidst the ongoing war and everything else going wrong in this country. He was like, yes, I love Tim Cook.
Speaker 2:
[17:14] He was hopped up on his medication that night and just was like, I'm going off. You're like, this happens not infrequently. You'll wake up and be like, oh my god, he was just up all night and tweeted out longer than the articles I've written this month, so that's something.
Speaker 3:
[17:29] He devoted more than 100 words to saying that Tim Cook was a good guy and saying like, there were times when Tim Cook called me directly and asked me to do things that I, only a president, could do. Big question, though, and this may be like writing fan fiction or something. Were these things that he actually needed help with or was he playing for DHS and being like, oh, no, Mr. President, I have such a hard problem. Can you help me with this?
Speaker 1:
[17:57] I think it's more like the tariff stuff. It's more like Trump's imposed tariffs, be like, can Apple get a break here? Can we, like, that's what it is. That's what all that bowing to the administration essentially was, and every business leader did it. I also do wonder, like, Tim Cook is a very rich man. His net worth is tens of billions of dollars, I believe. Like, he is...
Speaker 3:
[18:20] So I looked it up. Cook's net worth is, like, almost 3 billion. It's like 2.8.
Speaker 1:
[18:24] I thought it was, like, 20-something, but yeah, he's a billionaire.
Speaker 2:
[18:27] I think if he, like, cashed in, it could turn into, you know, I think Apple shares or whatever would turn into something even greater than that.
Speaker 1:
[18:36] But the thing about Trump is that he respects people who have more money than him, so that's kind of partially it, too. It's like, oh, you could invest in my stuff. You could give me some of that money. Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[18:46] I mean, while we're talking about it, though, like, Tim Cook is also one of the rare people who became a billionaire through being a company man. You know, he was never acquihired. He never put out his own shingle. He was just a really smart guy at IBM and a computer company that doesn't exist anymore. And then another...
Speaker 1:
[19:05] You can say Compaq. Compaq is not a dirty word.
Speaker 3:
[19:07] Does Compaq exist anymore?
Speaker 1:
[19:09] No, but Compaq is not a dirty word. I read that he was...
Speaker 3:
[19:13] I mean, I meant Intelligent Electronics, which definitely doesn't exist anymore.
Speaker 1:
[19:17] Does not exist. But the thing about Compaq, like, I was reading some old articles about Tim Cook, and he was like, Steve Jobs came to him when he was at Compaq, and everyone's like, you should stay with Compaq. They're a real company. Apple was on fire. Apple was falling apart in the 90s. And...
Speaker 3:
[19:35] Which is difficult for me to get into my head because I was a little too young during that time, and it was the pre-iPod flop era.
Speaker 1:
[19:44] Yeah, it's pre-iMac. It's pre-all the really fun stuff, I believe.
Speaker 2:
[19:48] Did Cook join in that same time frame as Ternus, like late 90s when Jobs came back?
Speaker 1:
[19:53] I think Ternus was like 2001, so they were building the team.
Speaker 2:
[19:56] Oh, right. Yeah, he's about 25 years now.
Speaker 1:
[19:59] Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:
[20:00] Just a crazy long time.
Speaker 1:
[20:01] But the story around Tim Cook is he had that one conversation with Steve Jobs and was like, screw it, I'm gonna do the crazy thing because it's again that cult of personality being like, I could stay at Compaq or I could try to do something great at Apple, and it was that conversation with Jobs who really convinced him to do it, so ended up working out well for him, I guess.
Speaker 2:
[20:22] But yeah, in Dan's piece, when he talks about the quote Trump stuff, he says he has some sympathy, which I respect, but also I kind of bristle at it a little bit too, just because if he's this rich and powerful, it feels like he could have done something differently, but he also has the point of like, you know, he's running a company that has thousands and thousands of employees who, like, I'm sure that when you're in that position, you feel responsible for, like, helping them keep their jobs in a difficult economy and so on and so forth. So, yeah, it's just a different set of values than you have at an individual level.
Speaker 1:
[21:01] It's a hard choice. But also like Tim Cook was the guy who was like, we don't agree with our values around environmentalism and sustainability. Dump our stock. Like he told stockholders to get lost years ago. But you're in a very different power position when it's the president of the United States who is making, you know, crazy, crazy midnight decisions around tariffs and things like that.
Speaker 2:
[21:23] So yeah, there's no stability to be had in the in the United States government at all. And I was going to say to your point about like the tweet where he's like, oh, he called me up. I'm like, he could just be lying also and just making stuff up, which is, I think, the most likely and simple solution is he just exaggerates the one phone call they had until, you know, oh, we were the bestest of buds who, anyway.
Speaker 1:
[21:47] Anyway, so let's wrap this up. So Tim Cook is not fully leaving Apple. He's going to be executive chairman of Apple's board of directors starting September 1st. He's still going to do-
Speaker 3:
[21:57] Actually, important quote from the press release. As executive chairman, Cook will assist with certain aspects of the company, including engaging with policy makers around the world. So maybe Trump won't lose his friend to begin with.
Speaker 2:
[22:08] I remember that.
Speaker 1:
[22:09] He's going to keep doing the, like kissing the ring of politicians and everything, which is kind of good because it gives Ternus like the ability to focus on the company and the actual work. For Ternus, September 1st, what happens in September at Apple?
Speaker 2:
[22:26] iPhone season.
Speaker 1:
[22:28] New iPhone, he's going to be there for the debut of the new iPhones, but also the debut of the foldable iPhone. Like to be the new CEO.
Speaker 2:
[22:35] Oh snap, and he's the hardware guy. Yeah, that's super interesting.
Speaker 1:
[22:38] That is the rumor. And that's a big freaking deal. Like it's going to be Ternus. It's going to be like, again, a big risky kind of product for them. We knew it was coming. Samsung has done it forever. A lot of companies have done it, but this is going to be a big deal for Apple. There's also reporting that next year's 20th anniversary iPhone will be a major redesign in some respects, too. So there's like big new changes for the iPhone coming. That could be kind of interesting, and it's going to be Ternus driving the ship, and we will see. We will see what happens, folks. Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[23:12] We're going into the iPhone 18 this year. You said the year after will be the 20th anniversary?
Speaker 1:
[23:19] Next year is the 20th anniversary.
Speaker 3:
[23:21] Okay.
Speaker 1:
[23:21] The numbering is all over the place. Remember? It was like 3G and 3D.
Speaker 2:
[23:25] The numbering was really weird for a while. But yeah, 2027 will be the 20th anniversary, which is just horrifying to think about.
Speaker 1:
[23:33] Oh my God.
Speaker 2:
[23:34] Yeah. I was just going to say that it's also interesting to me that Cook announced his retirement from the CEO position shortly after the Apple 50th anniversary stuff too.
Speaker 1:
[23:44] Very, very interesting. I saw somebody in chat say, there are reports that maybe he was pushed out. I don't think so. He is 65 years old.
Speaker 3:
[23:51] Why would you push out your goose that lays the golden egg?
Speaker 1:
[23:54] He has been so successful. No.
Speaker 2:
[23:56] They've surely been planning the CEO transition for multiple years.
Speaker 1:
[24:01] They would want him to stay on as long as he can, but John Ternus is 15 years younger. He was when he joined the executive team. He was the youngest person there. So bright-eyed, bushy-tailed, 50-year-old man ready to do a business.
Speaker 2:
[24:23] Do a 15-year stint like Cook did, basically.
Speaker 1:
[24:26] He could do 15 years. He could do more. Cook was basically coming in to save this company because Steve Jobs was very sick. Steve Jobs was ill and Steve Jobs passed away. He never really had the cushion of a real transition. He was the guy that had to keep the company going. And now, Ternus can be like, the ship is doing great. What else can we do? I think that's a really exciting way for a new leader.
Speaker 3:
[24:49] They have hundreds of billions in the bank.
Speaker 1:
[24:52] They can do so much. They can do so much right now. So, okay, folks, tell us what you think. podcastsengadget.com. Do you think Ternus is a good choice as Apple CEO? Are you excited for the changes that a product guy could bring? Let us know your thoughts. podcastsengadget.com. Do you want to check in the chat? Deepro9 has said, Deepro9, I have a feeling the new guy will be very AI centered. You would say that.
Speaker 2:
[25:18] Yeah, we didn't talk about that. I guess that is Igor who focuses on AI reporting on our team. He was like one of the things he thought immediately was it's interesting that they went with the hardware guy and didn't put somebody AI centric in the role, which I kind of appreciate. I feel like AI, what they're doing is not dissimilar to Vision Pro, where they're like, we're going to put our feet in this and see what comes up and obviously, if the new Siri ever shows up, that could be a good use of it all, but the fact that they're not going all in on this is one of the things I appreciate about the company at this point.
Speaker 1:
[25:52] For sure. In other news, Palantir, our favorite evil, I don't know, defense company, tech company that also works in defense and military stuff. Palantir CEO, Alex Karp, or Palantir itself, posted a 1,000 word post on X, basically summarizing the manifesto that CEO Alex Karp wrote down in The Technological Republic, which is a book from... Yeah, it was a book last year.
Speaker 3:
[26:29] Book he published last year.
Speaker 1:
[26:30] This is wild stuff. This is insane stuff. Have you guys seen the stuff coming out here?
Speaker 2:
[26:35] I like how it dropped over the week. It's just like a weekend rant too. Like our weekend editor, Sham, was like, well, I guess this is the thing I have to deal with today.
Speaker 1:
[26:43] This is the thing, like here's...
Speaker 3:
[26:45] I said in our show notes, Alex Karp woke up on Saturday and decided to post Fash on Main.
Speaker 1:
[26:52] I mean, decided to post Fash on Main, but also, hey, this is my book. Here's a summary of my book, buy my book. Which includes such wonderful little tidbits here. Silicon Valley owes a moral debt to the country that made its rise possible. The engineering elite of Silicon Valley has an affirmative obligation to participate in the defense of this nation. It gets crazier. The limits of soft power, of soaring rhetoric alone have been exposed. The ability of free and democratic societies to prevail require something more than moral appear. It requires hard power, and hard power in the century will be built on software.
Speaker 2:
[27:28] Okay. What does that mean?
Speaker 3:
[27:30] I think they're looking for plausible deniability of saying, we're not making weapons, but we're just making the stuff that goes into weapons. There's a difference.
Speaker 1:
[27:40] The post-war neutering of Germany and Japan must be undone. It was too unfair. Oh, man.
Speaker 3:
[27:48] Well, yeah, there's that. There's the line where it talks about how some cultures are just irrevocably backward and unproductive. Then, importantly, point number six, I want to read this verbatim. National service should be a universal duty. We should, as a society, seriously consider moving away from an all-volunteer force, and only fight the next war if everyone shares in the risk and the cost. Service guarantees citizenship. Would you like to know more?
Speaker 2:
[28:19] I feel like North Korea has a similar set up with their military, so great idea to be less flip. I know plenty of countries have service obligations. Not all of them are horrible.
Speaker 3:
[28:34] I mean, BTS just got out of theirs.
Speaker 2:
[28:37] Right. I guess, yes, South Korea has it too.
Speaker 1:
[28:41] Alex Karp is such a wild figure. I don't know if you guys have read interviews about him or read into his background. He is like a former, I don't know, granola-y liberal guy who kind of stumbled into this role. He has no formal education in defense work or public policy or anything that Palantir is essentially touching on right now.
Speaker 3:
[29:02] Okay. Maybe not public policy, but he does have graduate degrees and I think maybe a PhD in international relations sort of thing, something under that umbrella. And basically everyone was like, why do you keep on doing this? And he's like, it's because my buddy Peter Thiel said that it would be a good idea. What happened at Stanford?
Speaker 1:
[29:27] It's also like this feels like the ramblings of a comic book villain, but also of a company that is deeply anxious, just deeply anxious about its place in the world and response to everything with hard power. We got to stop limiting the intolerance of people who believe, was it the, speaking about like, they're saying religion is something not tolerated in certain respects and we should change that. Religion has a massive impact in this country and a massive influence. Like that is not a thing.
Speaker 2:
[29:59] Outside, I think we could say.
Speaker 1:
[30:01] Outside to a degree, like the thing that a lot of people are asking for is like that separation. And anyway, this is a wild thing, but this is Palantir.
Speaker 2:
[30:11] When you said they're anxious, it's interesting. Like it feels like something they want to put out there before, let's say like the midterms and power starts to change a little bit, or what will things look like under the next president? God willing that we have one. Yeah. So I wonder what they're like, what will things look like for us under a different administration? Right.
Speaker 3:
[30:32] This whole story is not so much like this is a big like turn of the, or a big tick of the clock. It's like file this under this happened for when the other shoe drops.
Speaker 1:
[30:46] I mean, this is who they are.
Speaker 3:
[30:47] This is what Nate said, like change in power in Washington, or some big thing that comes out because they're trying to get ahead of a whistleblower or something.
Speaker 1:
[30:58] This is who they are. And also, like, yeah, right now, it is fun to be fascist on Maine everywhere, like everyone is doing it. Peter Thiel is out there holding secret discussions about his research into the Antichrist. He's really into the Antichrist, folks. And he's got the full skinny, and he's holding private seminars about the Antichrist. And I'm like, have you looked in the mirror? I don't know. It's either you or it's the guy in charge of our country right now. The people like bleeding to the destruction of our society.
Speaker 3:
[31:29] All I'm saying is that Peter Thiel has gotten way vainier in the last like 10 years.
Speaker 2:
[31:34] Oh my God. That's upsetting.
Speaker 1:
[31:36] He's gotten way, way vainier. And Mark Andreessen has gotten way, way more coneheaded. Like I don't know what's going on over there, but as the fascism grows, their bodies are changing, and it's really weird.
Speaker 2:
[31:51] Good times.
Speaker 1:
[31:52] Good times. In other news, Ken Klippenstein, independent journalist Ken Klippenstein, reporting that Homeland Security reportedly wants to develop smart glasses for ICE, and they would be able to record video, collect biometric data of migrants and protesters. And hey, when smart glasses started becoming a thing, this was exactly what everybody was worried about. This is exactly what everyone's worried about, with the reports of Meta bringing facial recognition into their glasses. And this is why like early on I started being like, I don't know how this category can even exist, because it is, to me, inherently evil. What do you guys think of this report? I think it's very, very positive.
Speaker 2:
[32:34] I missed this one, but it sounds super concerning.
Speaker 1:
[32:38] We have the technology to do it. So all we need to do is basically fund these devices.
Speaker 2:
[32:42] Yeah. And find a company that will build them, and anyone will, because they answer to the almighty dollar. Oh yeah, it's great. I still haven't seen, I don't think, obviously, any human being wearing any of these newer ones. It may be just a matter.
Speaker 3:
[32:59] The problem is you might not know.
Speaker 2:
[33:01] No, I know. I hear you. Yeah. I think there's like an Instagram, like the Doggist, I don't know if you guys know who the Doggist is, but he's a guy who walks around New York and records dogs, and it's very wholesome and delightful. But I believe he has started wearing those, so he can shoot POV video and stuff, which I'm like, okay, fair enough. But I think less of him because of this. I'm like, just don't.
Speaker 3:
[33:25] Especially because he already has a camera on him.
Speaker 2:
[33:27] And usually a camera person oftentimes with him as well. But again, I kind of don't see, I don't see mass adoption of this happening because of all the things we're talking about. I don't think, I think it's like a small collection of nerds who are like, this is the next thing, and they'll try it, and then they'll get shunned in society and hopefully ostracized. And like with Google Glass, the category will die because it's actually not that useful either. Like I don't know what, like I just don't, I don't know. This is me being old, I guess.
Speaker 1:
[33:54] So some people like the ability to just like take videos and they're using it to like listen to podcasts or whatever, like as they're out and about. It's just like a single device that does a lot. The thing is like Meta has done a great job of normalizing the tech because they have made it so streamlined. Like it's affordable, they look like normal glasses. They could do a lot of things right now. So it's more like the normalization of that erosion of privacy that I think is a very good thing for us to keep speaking up on. So I've heard of some businesses being like, you cannot come inside with those glasses, stuff like that. Like we just cannot trust you for the privacy of our customers or whatever. You cannot just be walking around wearing spy glasses. So there are certainly going to be some changes going on, but I would not be surprised if ICE is pursuing this because.
Speaker 2:
[34:40] Oh, it makes perfect sense.
Speaker 1:
[34:41] There have also been reports of ICE agents wearing Meta glasses already for video and for other things. So not unusual.
Speaker 3:
[34:49] Because how do you make more money than working for ICE? You become like a live streamer.
Speaker 2:
[34:54] You become like an ICE influencer.
Speaker 3:
[34:56] Yeah, literally an ICE influencer.
Speaker 2:
[34:59] Oh, we're so broken.
Speaker 3:
[35:00] You can't see it, but Nate pointed a finger gun at his head.
Speaker 2:
[35:04] Yeah.
Speaker 1:
[35:04] Thankfully, I have not seen any ICE influencers. I have seen many videos of people standing up to people supporting ICE, so that's fun. The kid who was just like, the kid in the school is like, what are you saying? You support ICE, I'm gonna punch you.
Speaker 2:
[35:20] Oh my God, right. Yes, that was wild.
Speaker 1:
[35:22] That's wild. And also more of that, probably more.
Speaker 2:
[35:25] I mean, I guess, you know, flip it around. I'm like, I could see the benefit of like, you get traffic stopped and you can like record with your glasses, like exactly what's going on. But again, the fact that that's even a consideration is extremely dystopian.
Speaker 1:
[35:39] Yep.
Speaker 3:
[35:40] So let's actually bring something in from dpro9 in the chat. They say, my little nephew has these glasses. He got them for Christmas and he loves them. His friends all have them as well. Since when were boys, I can only imagine roughly seven to 12 years old, the best product ambassadors for things.
Speaker 1:
[36:02] I don't know, but also schools are going to be quick to ban those things. Schools would not want cameras and other things being worn around by kids so easily.
Speaker 3:
[36:11] For every Heelys, there are 10 other products that end up in the dustbin of history because they were, maybe specifically because they were so popular with seven to 12 year old boys.
Speaker 1:
[36:23] Seriously, seriously. Let's move on to other news. Apparently, a lot of you panic bought PCs to avoid Ramageddon. Counterpoint Research says the global PC shipments grew 3.2% year over year in the first quarter. Quote, driven by preemptive buying before memory lid, price increases hit the retail level. I've heard this from some people. I've heard people who have been like thinking of an upgrade and being like, I guess I gotta do it. I guess I gotta pull the trigger now or building the parts for their PCs or whatever. People are doing it because they're expecting prices to get higher. This seems very logical to me. What do you guys think?
Speaker 2:
[36:55] I definitely have a few things on my mind. Like I should buy this now rather than later. Just because I know I'm gonna need it eventually. And the opportunity cost of getting it cheaper now is probably worth taking. Okay, maybe I'll get an M6 MacBook next year, but it costs $300 more. I don't know. Apple, to circle back to Cook and Planning and all that good stuff. I think they've been pretty insulated from this stuff so far. A few products went up in price, but they have always... They have been accompanied by storage bumps, at least a RAM bump, so it's not just like the exact same thing costing more. But I imagine at a certain point that's going to run out for them and other companies as well. But I'm actually kind of surprised that it wasn't a bigger number than 3.6 percent. But maybe there'll be another couple more quarters year over year, we see that bump and then it's going to start dropping off.
Speaker 1:
[37:49] Yeah, reading about Cook, a smart thing he did early on was like, make sure Apple invested in flash memory and things that ended up being really useful. Not even recently, but back in 2005, to make the iPod Nano a thing, to make all those devices a thing, they were looking at where the industry was headed. It was like, we need some flash memory. We need to have a hold on this market. Again, smart logistical choices can lead to smart product decisions down the line. So I think, how the hell is a Macbook Neo a $600 good laptop in an era where RAM prices are exploding right now? It's partially the fact that they can produce an eight gigabyte machine, eight gigabyte RAM machine, that feels good. Every episode, we're just gonna have to shout out the Macbook Neo, I think, because product of the year.
Speaker 3:
[38:36] About two years ago now, maybe a little more than two years ago, I got really stuck on the idea of setting up a NAS, and oh my god, I should have done it when I was thinking about it.
Speaker 1:
[38:49] Same, same, like I always think about setting up a NAS, I'm like, I don't, I can't justify it. And then yeah, everything is super expensive now. But you know what, it is crazy looking at prices right now. Used cars, all over the place. EVs, I keep looking at them and like, what can I do right now? Should we do it because of gas prices? Used cars going way down. OLED TVs, big ass TVs, LG, Samsung, a lot of people are clearing out stock right now. So like 77 inch great OLED TVs, not the cheap ass basic models, are going for like $1,500 right now, which is wild. That is good to know. Wild. Yeah, if you're looking for a new TV, Nate, talk to me because the deals are everywhere. But I'm also like, I'm just sitting here gripping my arm rest because I'm like, I could do this. I could do this. I probably don't need to do this. I have a 65 inch mini LED TV in our family room. That's perfectly fine, but it's not an OLED. It's not a 77 inch OLED. I saw a Samsung, the 83 inch S85F, $1,800. 83 inch OLED. 83 inch OLED. It's crazy right now. So anyway, if you're in the market for a good TV, go check out Slick Deals folks because things are wild. It's wild right now and prices for things are going to get over. Let's blast through some other news. There's a lawsuit that claims that Meta has misled users about scam ads on Facebook and Instagram. I feel like we've talked about this before.
Speaker 3:
[40:18] Yeah. I'm also thinking that there was some kind of whistleblower that was just like, yeah, as long as they pay, we'll run these ads. And eventually they're going to get into a lawsuit. Well, surprise, the lawsuit has come and they're claiming that people have gotten super scammed on the, I think it's Right Rail ads. They're offering what, like free government phones, like the sort of kind of bottom of the barrel, like what we would call chum box ads that the people who work for editorial websites don't even like. But think about who's still on Facebook. They love to click on that stuff.
Speaker 1:
[40:59] It's wild. I'm going to read from Krista Bell's report here. The lawsuit alleges that Meta has run a file of consumer protection laws in Washington, DC for misleading Facebook and Instagram users about scams on its apps. The company has, quote, chased profits rather than protecting its users, end quote. So garbage ads, garbage ads from Meta. And yeah, we did talk about them making billions of dollars on these garbage ads before. So not too surprising. And also in other Meta news, the company has gleefully admitted that it is training AI on the keystrokes, mouse movements and clicks of its workforce. They're not saying what they're actually using that for, or like what that's being trained for. Training AI. That is just wild to me. Because there are certainly many instances of employers tracking employees. Like Slack has many ways to communicate like how engaged workers are. Are they actually idle? Are they actually available? How much time they're putting in? This seems like a whole new level of employee tracking to me. It's kind of disgusting.
Speaker 2:
[42:05] Yeah, I mean, I feel like keylogging is like not uncommon. I don't know what most companies would do with that, but the notion of like feeding it back into AI so it can take your jobs is like, again, how many times I'm going to say dystopian in this episode?
Speaker 1:
[42:20] It's all dystopian.
Speaker 2:
[42:22] Yeah, it's crazy.
Speaker 3:
[42:23] I mean, it's not even like feeding it back in to train AI to take your jobs. Like, I think that is a much more downstream sort of thing. I think this is a sign again that they're like, shit, we're running out of data. We need to like just get data somehow. And we have this entire workforce, all of whom have company issued laptops and have already signed their privacy rights away when it comes to their entire digital lives on those laptops. So let's just harvest that data too. Personally, if I were working for Meta, I would pretend like I'm playing StarCraft again and just like spam click for like APM and make the data even noisier for them.
Speaker 1:
[43:10] I'm gonna read from Avery Ellis' post and you should read their post for us on the site. In a cheery missive, a company spokesperson told Engadget that quote, if we're building agents to help people complete everyday tasks using computers, our models need real examples of how people actually use them. We're launching an internal tool that will capture these kinds of inputs on certain applications to help us train our models. End quote. All this eats one to ask the obvious question, hey, what the fuck? I love an Avery post. This is a great post.
Speaker 2:
[43:40] Yes, she should do it more often because it's always a good read. And yeah, like there's just so many things you could pick apart on this. It's very weird. Like on the one hand, I know there's been for years at companies, you sign a contract and it's like, we own all of your work product forever. But this just feels a little different.
Speaker 1:
[44:02] It feels absolutely different. Also, aren't they like getting ready to a massive round of layoffs, 8,000 employees starting on May 20th? What is Meta doing? It's dumping employees, but also does not really care about them in any.
Speaker 2:
[44:15] No, because I think we sometimes forget that like, I need to look at their most recent earnings, I believe that they're still making all their money from, essentially all their money from advertising, like Google, like it's probably 75 percent of their revenue or more. So, as long as that doesn't change, the company is not going to experience any dire financial straits. So, it can continue to do stuff like this because the bottom line is still going to be good unless-
Speaker 1:
[44:44] And it can dump employee things.
Speaker 2:
[44:45] Although we can start leaving Meta, but they have 3.5 billion users. So, it would take a lot for enough people to leave to start impacting that advertising revenue.
Speaker 1:
[44:55] Okay. Maybe some slightly better news. Xbox has cut Game Pass prices. New Call of Duty titles will not be a part of them now, but Game Pass is now $23 a month, down from $30. PC Game Pass will be $14 a month instead of $16.50. I think there was a mass exodus of people from Game Pass after they essentially raised the price by 50 percent last year, and it was not great. I canceled my membership at that point too, because I play a lot of PC games, but it also was just not worth it in the end. I like buying games on Steam because you know what? I can play it on my Steam Deck. I can play it on any computer that I'm hopping on, and Game Pass has been a much harder thing to deal with. You guys have any thoughts about this?
Speaker 2:
[45:42] I mean, I wrote a thing last year about, this was kind of my last draw to, basically I bought an Xbox in 2021 because I wanted to play Forza 5. So I got the Series S for I think $300, and then I got Game Pass and could try a bunch of games on the Xbox I'd never really gotten to play before. There wasn't a ton, but there was enough that it felt like a nice addition to my gaming setup. Now the Xbox Series S costs $450, and Game Pass was $30 a month instead of $15. And I'm like, that's just too much money. It's not worth it. And I think that this $23 price is like where subscription services are getting their prices jacked up every year, almost without fail. So going from 20 to 23, I'm like, yeah, that would have been like, you know, this was the boiling the frog in the pot kind of thing, right? Instead of just going like, oh, we're going from 20 to 30. You know, 23 is a little easier to take, but it will certainly would have not inspired the same outrage. And, you know, for me, I'm like, I don't care about Call of Duty, so that wouldn't bother me. I know some people are big mad about them saying it was included and now it's not. But also, I thought it was interesting because there's a new head of Xbox as of a few months ago, right? And, you know, she had just a week ago, I believe said like Game Pass has become too expensive. I was not expecting the change to happen a week later.
Speaker 1:
[47:11] That's basically what's been happening. It's like she or somebody within Xbox will put a thought out there and then the news will kind of follow right after. So yeah, I wasn't surprised. They was only a week away. But it does seem like, what the hell were you thinking? You are in such a bad position with your customers. Your loyal customers who choice Xbox over PlayStation 5, which was clearly the dominant console winner of this generation. You went ahead and raised prices by 50%. People were pissed off. It felt like the last straw for a lot of Xbox users. That was partially why I wrote the piece last year. It was like, this is the year Xbox died, because they did everything they could to essentially kill the platform. There were no deals around Black Friday. They kept raising prices. Look what happened to Game Pass. This is a good move. This should have been the move from the beginning.
Speaker 2:
[48:06] I feel some sympathy for the hardware prices going up, because obviously, everyone did that. It still was a real sticker shock. I think it was twice in the calendar year they raised prices on the Xbox. It's like, wow, like I said, S used to be a good deal. Now it is not. But I guess maybe in a world where 450 is like the minimum you're going to pay for any console at this point, it's not so bad, but it's just such a dramatic change from just a few years ago.
Speaker 1:
[48:34] I mean, it costs what the X used to cost, essentially, which is awful, just like an awful state of where we are. Anyway, slightly cheaper game, Pass Ultimate. I may rejoin on the PC level just to check out some newer games, but this is such an obvious decision. You shouldn't have pushed Call of Duty on there. You pushed it too far, and there is room in the future for them to have a Call of Duty tier. Maybe you spend an extra 10 bucks a month or five bucks a month, then you get Call of Duty with it. There's room for them to be flexible with this. I'm amazed they did not do this earlier. Hey, Microsoft continues to Microsoft. Let's move on to what's going on around Engadget. Matt Smith reviewed the Dyson Pentel Vac Fluffy Cones. What a name. I don't understand how Dyson names its products.
Speaker 3:
[49:28] This is a long-standing thing though. I love the vacuum that I have part-time custody of. I live right near my girlfriend, so I use her vacuum. It's a Dyson, I think, the 15 or 16 detect. It's the one with the dirt laser, and you can see on the actual...
Speaker 1:
[49:53] On the head of it, yeah.
Speaker 3:
[49:54] Yes, on the head of it. You can see on the head of it that it, it says that it has fluffy optic technology. Like, fluffy is an entire product line for them. This isn't a new thing.
Speaker 1:
[50:07] The fluffy, but the fluffy is like, yeah, the green light that essentially makes you see dust. I have one of those, too, the V15. I love it. I love it because it's like, oh, I do like to vacuum my floors, and it is actually great. It's so good.
Speaker 3:
[50:22] It's so satisfying.
Speaker 2:
[50:23] Oh, we're so old, guys.
Speaker 1:
[50:24] Actually, so this is a $600 super thin vacuum.
Speaker 2:
[50:31] $600, you said?
Speaker 1:
[50:32] $600, because it's a Dyson.
Speaker 2:
[50:33] I'd rather buy a good Roomba, or, you know, robot vacuum, whatever.
Speaker 1:
[50:37] Well, the clutch move as you're getting older is you gotta have a Roomba, you gotta have a stick vac. That's basically it. You're really old when you start to get into the wires.
Speaker 3:
[50:47] Even though the vacuum subreddit, full of vacuum lovers, hates stick vacs.
Speaker 1:
[50:53] They want you to get only the wired, the big, bag ones. Here's the trick for Dyson, folks. Never buy full price. Either buy it on sale or buy it refurbed. And Dyson has like a large refurbished selection on its website, so keep an eye. Certainly not for the new stuff. Cool to see this review. Matt scores it 79 out of 100. Matt says it's more like a mop. Like, you look at the size of this thing. It is, it looks like a typical mop.
Speaker 3:
[51:24] Yeah, it is pretty small. And this gives me the feeling that it doesn't have like multiple different heads. And that's the thing that I like about the other Dyson vacuum. Like, you can just pop a like carpet attachment on. I do like the fact that the bag or like chamber itself is clear. So you can see when you put that carpet attachment on.
Speaker 2:
[51:48] Just how gross your floor is or your carpet, yeah.
Speaker 3:
[51:51] Yeah, especially if you have a dog.
Speaker 2:
[51:53] Oh yeah, yep.
Speaker 1:
[51:54] Absolutely. So anyway, check out Matt Smith's review there. Anything that you're working on, Nathan, you want to shout out?
Speaker 2:
[52:00] No, I'm kind of in the sort of like, got a bunch of stuff done waiting for the next round to hit. Yeah, the last month or so was pretty busy. So it's mostly just, yeah, keeping on keeping the news flow.
Speaker 1:
[52:14] Keep on keeping on. There were reports, like, I think we were waiting for some more Mac stuff to happen, like the Mac Studio and maybe the Mac Mini. There are reports that some of those devices have been delayed. So we shall see. We'll see whenever those are.
Speaker 2:
[52:26] Yeah, I wonder if they were supposed to be ready for the like March wave.
Speaker 1:
[52:29] Yeah, something like that.
Speaker 2:
[52:31] What about you, what do you got going on?
Speaker 1:
[52:32] I'll be finishing up that, the sort of like MacBook Neo commentary piece we were talking about. And yeah, I'm seeing what else is up. I want to talk to Microsoft and see like, how their transition to fixing Windows is going because they've been quiet for a while. And we'll see what else pops up. And we've got some new computers coming in as well. So that's pretty much it. Let's move on to pop culture picks. Ben, Nate, anything you want to shout out?
Speaker 2:
[52:57] I got a quick one. I have been playing a game on the Playdate called Devils on the Moon Pinball. And I'm a real life pinball junkie. I don't have a machine myself, nor do I ever think I will for space and costs and fixing it reasons.
Speaker 3:
[53:12] Fixing it reasons really big.
Speaker 2:
[53:14] Yeah, it's huge. That you gotta know somebody who knows a guy. But this is a really good pinball game that is, there's a lot of platforms have digital recreations of like existing machines. And there's like the other ones were like, we're making things that you can't make in real life. This one is more like that, but I love that it's on the Playdate. It controls well, the physics feel accurate to me. It's got a good theme to it. It's just a good time and it's that sort of quintessential Playdate experience where if you want to play it for a long time, you can or you can just pick it up and play for five minutes. I did an interview with the developers when the game launched from a few weeks ago. So yeah, if you like pinball, I would say definitely worth checking out.
Speaker 1:
[53:56] That's super cool. I have not turned my Playdate on in like a year. So I should probably.
Speaker 2:
[54:00] Yeah, I go the same way where I don't touch it for a long time and then I get kind of like in a little loop with it. It's one of those things where even if I only use it a little bit, I'm glad to have supported the company and the developers and all that stuff.
Speaker 1:
[54:14] Yeah. Ben, what do you got?
Speaker 3:
[54:15] So I watched the Louis Thoreau Manosphere documentary last night.
Speaker 2:
[54:20] I'm sorry.
Speaker 3:
[54:21] I have to say that we may have found the place where Louis Thoreau is weakest. He does a really good job of the Socratic method and just asking people like, why do you think that? Why do you think that? Why do you feel that? That works in a lot of cases. It especially works really well when you're putting people who aren't used to being on camera, on camera. However, these Manosphere guys are very used to being on camera. So he does end up being able to catch them in moments of like greater metacognition and thinking about like why they're doing what they're doing, which is his trademark. I don't know if his style is very well suited for people who are so good at new media.
Speaker 1:
[55:10] I wasn't like super familiar with his work, but I saw enough of these interviews to be like, you're not doing anything here, man. You're not like actually accomplishing anything. But I don't know, maybe for some viewers, he's revealing something about the subculture to people.
Speaker 3:
[55:21] So there is a moment where he's talking with this kind of small time British Manosphere guy who is doing all of the Manosphere things. He's like, I am so rich and so cool, and I'm living on a villa and look at all of these beautiful women around me. Join my Telegram group. And the Telegram group is a place where he just spams OnlyFans links because he also has an OnlyFans management agency. And then on top of that is like, here's a investment portal or a portal to my investment school. I think it might be kind of both, where you can learn how to get out of your dead-end job and start making hundreds of pounds a day, so on and so on. And so, Louis asks him, like, hey, what do you think about the fact that you're doing this, you're saying that like porn isn't so good for like, you know, today's man, but also you're pushing it. You own a management agency. And he's just like, anything to get rich, man. Like, I'll just do anything to get rich, man. And that is like the depth of the meta cognition that he's able to get out of these guys. It may be like a little bit of a personality type that he's just not able to get people who are, you know, that willing to look inward because everything about their point of view on the world is about not looking inward. But I think it's also just the fact that they're so used to being on camera that the presence of the camera doesn't stir something up in them. In fact, there's a scene where this same small time Manosphere guy is talking directly to camera and Louis has to be like, hey, wait, no, this is a different format. You talk to me and the camera observes it.
Speaker 1:
[57:16] But camera there.
Speaker 3:
[57:17] Rather than him being like, what's up, YouTube? But here's my workout.
Speaker 1:
[57:22] Oh man, we are a lost culture. I don't know.
Speaker 2:
[57:25] I can't say you sold me on that one, but I appreciate that you did the digging.
Speaker 3:
[57:29] I'm not trying to sell you on it. I'm trying to say that this is kind of a rare miss for someone who is a pretty legendary documentarian and now has been like a big inspiration for other new media organizations like Andrew Callahan and Channel 5.
Speaker 1:
[57:48] He's been outmediated because these folks are like now just more shameless than ever before. I want to quickly shout out Beef Season Two, which is fantastic. If you like Season One, Season One was like a very self-contained thing of like a road rage incident that really escalated. This season is just like beef upon beef upon beef escalating and incredible cast, Oscar Isaac.
Speaker 3:
[58:11] Beef Two, even beefier?
Speaker 1:
[58:12] All the beef, they got the meats.
Speaker 2:
[58:14] How much have you seen so far?
Speaker 1:
[58:16] I'm pretty much almost done. I think I have like two episodes left. But yeah, Oscar Isaac, Kerry Mulgan, Kelly Spaney, who is like on a freaking run right now, and Charles Melton, who is an actor I've loved for a very long time. Check out the movie May December if you want to see what he can do. But just wonderful core cast. I think this is a really interesting exploration of like generational divides, wealth divides, but also the things people will do to achieve money and achieve wealth and like the way you will sell yourself and your souls for that. It's fascinating. It's a really, really fun and interesting show. It's on Netflix right now. Season 2 of Beef, check it out.
Speaker 3:
[58:59] That's it for the episode. Thanks everybody for listening. Our theme music is by game composer, Dale North. Our outro music is by our former managing editor, Terrence O'Brien. The podcast is produced by me, Ben Elman. You can find Nate online at.
Speaker 2:
[59:14] Nate Ingraham on threads in blue sky.
Speaker 3:
[59:17] You can find Devindra online at.
Speaker 1:
[59:20] I'm at Devindra on blue sky and you can hear me talking about movies and TV at the filmcast at the filmcast.com.
Speaker 3:
[59:25] Send me your suggestions for good documentaries, always, always, always at Hey Bellman on blue sky. You can email us at podcast at engadget.com. Leave us a review on iTunes and subscribe on anything that gets podcasts. That includes Spotify.
Speaker 1:
[59:42] Thanks folks. We're out.