transcript
Speaker 1:
[00:00] For tonight, we've come to Aberdeen for the second of our special election programmes ahead of May the 7th. Our audience, as always, reflects a general electoral picture across the nation. Tonight, of course, across Scotland. Welcome to Question Time from Aberdeen on the BBC News channel, iPlayer and Sounds, and TikTok and YouTube. For the SNP, we have Scotland's housing secretary, Màiri McAllan, a former special adviser to Nicola Sturgeon. She was elected to the Scottish Parliament in 2021. She's been tipped as a future leader of the party. Anas Sarwar is the leader of Scottish Labour, who called on Keir Starmer to resign two months ago, saying too many mistakes had been made in Downing Street. He's offering, in his words, to fix the mess left by the SNP after 20 years in government. Malcolm Offord is the leader of Reform UK in Scotland. He defected from the Conservatives in December and has seen his party leapfrog Labour in opinion polls. Russell Findlay leads the Scottish Conservatives, promising to fight for economic growth above everything else. He says the First Minister, John Swinney, is a magician who makes people's wages disappear. Gillian Mackay is the co-leader of the Scottish Greens, who want to see an independent Scotland. The party's manifesto calls for free bus travel, more doctors and a trial of a universal basic income. And Alex Cole-Hamilton is the leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats. He's hoping to win 10 seats and has hinted that he might vote for Anas Sarwar as First Minister if he gets the chance to remove the SNP from power. Good evening, welcome to our panel. Welcome to our audience here in Aberdeen. Great to see all of you, and of course, welcome to you at home. You can just sit back and watch the programme, or we're on the social media channels, on iPlay, on BT Sounds, the whole nine yards. There's always a lively debate on social media. Feel free to join in that if you want to as well. Now, we're gonna start the programme slightly differently tonight. I just want to give you at home a flavour of the majority of the kind of questions we're getting in tonight. So let's kick off. John McLeod.
Speaker 2:
[02:21] With councils across Scotland generating more money through things such as US charges and ever-rising council taxes, why is this money not cascading into the community? Why still the potholes? Why still the boarded up shop fronts? Why still the swimming pool closures? And why still the library closures? Where is the money?
Speaker 3:
[02:45] So Aberdeen has been built on oil and gas and obviously we're now moving towards renewable and greener energy. My question really is, for those that are currently in the oil and gas working, how are they going to have those transferable skills over to renewable energy? Because some of them are very, very specialised, including my husband.
Speaker 4:
[03:08] Does it pay the average working family with young children to actually go out and work?
Speaker 5:
[03:15] As a retired head teacher, I want to know what each party is going to do to improve achievement in Scottish schools and thereby attain my vote.
Speaker 1:
[03:28] Thereby get your vote. OK, well, let's see where you are by the end of this. Thank you very much for that. Right, that's a flavour of those are the kind of questions we've been getting into. OK, you mentioned oil and gas, so why don't we kick off with that? Let's hear from Angus Martin.
Speaker 6:
[03:43] With global tensions affecting energy supplies, is increasing North Sea oil and gas production the right move for the UK's energy security?
Speaker 1:
[03:52] Well... According to Donald Trump, yet again today, yes, it is, but he's not our president, he's for the United States. So, Màiri, is it the right move to increase North Sea oil and gas production?
Speaker 7:
[04:09] So, energy security is on all of our minds, quite rightly, as prices continue to rise, and we're having warnings left right and center that that's the trajectory that we're going in, even though it feels like we've been in a trajectory of rising prices for some time now. When it comes to licensing, new exploration, our position is and has been that first of all, perversely, those decisions don't sit in Scotland. So, so long as we're relying on UK ministers making that decision, for each opportunity they should consider it on a rigorously evidence-led case-by-case basis. I'll just finish the answer. Taking into account both climate compatibility, because that is a legal obligation, it's not just a moral thing, but also energy security. And energy security is clearly a factor, which is developing very rapidly just now. But if I just can't…
Speaker 1:
[05:00] But that's not what you said last year. Because last year, you were on record saying the decision to grant the licence to drill a rose bank, the oil field, was wrong. And it would not contribute to energy security. Are you now saying it might? You changed your position.
Speaker 7:
[05:14] What I'm saying to the gentleman is that energy security and climate compatibility have been the two things we have always been clear need to be taken into account. And I accept that energy security and the picture around energy security has changed significantly. However, if I can just add, there's other factors here that are really important.
Speaker 1:
[05:29] Do you think more drilling would contribute to energy security now? You obviously didn't think that before, only last year, or two years ago, sorry.
Speaker 7:
[05:34] What I'm saying is it has to be taken into account. And I've said that the energy security position around the world...
Speaker 1:
[05:38] But if it won't make a difference, why would you take it into account?
Speaker 7:
[05:40] Well, because we have to take an evidence-led position.
Speaker 1:
[05:43] That's just what you said. I'm just jerking you back to yourself.
Speaker 7:
[05:45] All I'm saying is that the facts of each opportunity need to be considered against climate compatibility, which remains an obligation, and energy security, which is a moving picture. What I would like to see, however, is that I didn't have to set out the principles for the decision-making on this, and that actually those decisions were made in Scotland. Because there's other factors here, including an energy profits levy, which is still being put into place by a UK government, which is starving the industry of the very investment that we need to transition. So that absolutely has to go. I recall Anas Sarwar saying that Labour were going to save Grangemouth, and yet it disappeared, it did. These are broken promises and a whole series of issues.
Speaker 1:
[06:25] Let's just get a straight answer, Màiri.
Speaker 7:
[06:26] Where we need to return our energy wealth to Scotland.
Speaker 1:
[06:28] Should there be more drilling in the North Sea?
Speaker 7:
[06:31] Well, it has to be led by evidence. It has to be led by evidence.
Speaker 1:
[06:36] You must have seen a lot of the evidence. You've been in power for nearly 20 years.
Speaker 8:
[06:38] Should there be more drilling on it?
Speaker 7:
[06:39] But Fiona, sorry.
Speaker 1:
[06:40] I realise it's not devolved. But we are in Aberdeen, you must have some idea.
Speaker 7:
[06:45] I have not seen the evidence. I do not get to make those decisions. I want the...
Speaker 1:
[06:50] You've seen no idea.
Speaker 7:
[06:51] No, no, it's not that I don't have any idea. We are in a situation. Sorry.
Speaker 9:
[06:55] What's your opinion?
Speaker 1:
[06:56] Should there be more drilling or not?
Speaker 7:
[06:57] Well, if it can be demonstrated that it's both climate compatible and required for energy security, then yes, it should.
Speaker 1:
[07:03] Malcolm.
Speaker 6:
[07:05] Okay.
Speaker 10:
[07:06] Here we are in the Northeast, where we basically had a world class energy industry, which we basically shut down as an act of self-harm. Our energy prices are four times more expensive than the US., seven times more expensive than China. We're importing 70% of our North Sea from, or gas from the North Sea from Norway, from fields over the fence from the ones that we've shut down. Even the Norwegian Energy Minister thinks that is daft. In the meantime, we account for less than 1% of global emissions. China accounts for 30% and opens a coal firepower station one a week. We all want to clean the cleanest possible energy system, don't we? But we need affordable and secure energy. 75% of energy system is hydrocarbon. Right now, we need to get the North gas onshore and flowing again, and we don't need that to go on the international market. It can come to the UK on a domestic market only. Remember the US 20 years ago? Well, 20 years ago, the US was energy dependent, and it now is an exporter. You do a license arrangement with the energy companies to bring the gas onshore only for domestic use, not for export, not for export, and we get the price down.
Speaker 1:
[08:20] Even if they can get a higher price aboard, you'll just make them do it somehow.
Speaker 10:
[08:24] That's the cost of the license. That's how the license would work. They can make a margin on that. They bring it in to the UK at an affordable price. We then have secure energy, because right now we don't have security of supply, and we have affordable energy. And then we can then talk about a transition, because we can then use that as our transition fuel. In the same way as US used shale gas, China is using coal, we can use our own North Sea gas as a transition fuel to a future, but let's at least please come up with affordable energy, because we are de-industrializing this country, and that is costing a lot of jobs, and a lot of livelihoods, especially here in the Northeast.
Speaker 11:
[09:07] I heard what you said on the air about gas coming from Northern Norway, Orm and Lange, which a number of years ago actually produced and was sold to the UK, of 30% of the UK's gas needs. We also buy oil and import oil into the UK as well. Everyone speaks about energy. Do they not realize just how much other properties and components are actually derived from oil?
Speaker 1:
[09:46] Man at the very back.
Speaker 12:
[09:48] Hi, yes. I work in the oil and gas industry. YC really quite dramatically is a shift out of the North Sea for a lot of suppliers, a lot of losses of jobs. This is all self-inflicted, I think. We burn gas. What does it matter if it's from Norway or from Qatar or the US? We still burn gas to heat our homes. We still burn oil. We still drive cars. You know, why I'm disappointed at? I know it's reserved matter, but that the S&P is not fighting our corner. Yeah, you've not fought our corner. And it's very disappointing. You flip-flopped and now you're this wishy-washy, you know, oh, half in, half out, right? It's nonsense. There's more to energy security. It's a recent thing. And there's more to climate change. There's jobs. There's livelihoods. There's a whole northeast economy built on this.
Speaker 1:
[10:48] Okay, I'll let you come back in. The woman in the green sweater, I think, at the back, yes.
Speaker 13:
[10:53] Yeah, we talk about energy, but we need to distinguish between electricity and other types of energy and oil and gas. As long as we're still using oil and gas as a country, and we are, we shouldn't be going to Africa, allowing drilling in Africa. How can that be cleaner? It's certainly not cheaper. It's no more environmentally friendly. And the irony that we are not, we're taxing any organization that's going to get taxed at almost 80% is going to go to other countries, your BP's, your Shell's. Why are we allowing this to come in from Norway, the same fields? We're not taking the tax revenue, we're losing the jobs. Jobs are going out of Aberdeen by the thousands at the moment, and people are employed in Norway, and they're taking all the revenue that we could be generating here.
Speaker 8:
[11:47] Gillian, the last two speakers, have they got a point?
Speaker 14:
[11:53] So I don't think that any more drilling in the North Sea is compatible either with the climate or actually with energy security as well. We've seen how this conflict on that global scale has pushed up prices here without us having anything to do with it. This, barrels of oil from the North Sea or from anywhere else are traded on a global market by these global corporations, no matter where that comes from.
Speaker 1:
[12:15] But the point these two people are making is if we're going to carry on using it for a while, at least we shouldn't be using our own rather than importing it from elsewhere.
Speaker 14:
[12:24] But there are current reserves that we're using without opening new fields that can be used to help with that transition across. We should have been funding this transition properly. We should have been saving the jobs that have been lost in Aberdeen and Grangemouth where I'm from decades ago. The next best time to start that transition is right now so that we don't lose any more of the jobs that we have here in Aberdeen, so that workers do have the time to transfer their skills across, to learn those new skills, to make sure that we've got those good, well-paid, unionized jobs in these communities for generations to come. I have friends who worked at Grangemouth, then went to Mossmorran, and have lost jobs twice because we've left it to big companies. Both governments haven't done enough to support the workers in these industries. We need to see that backing from government now, rather than leaving it to these big corporations that don't actually care about the communities and will cut and run when it's convenient for them to do so.
Speaker 1:
[13:22] Anas.
Speaker 15:
[13:23] National security has been a really big topic, rightly, over the last number of months in particular, and let's be really clear, energy security is national security. I would say, as an aside, that Lord Malcolm Offord served in a government where one third of oil and gas jobs were lost and didn't say nothing throughout that entire period and similar to with Màiri McAllan and the SNP government. A commitment was made on Rosebank and Jack Dot in the previous round that we would honor licenses, we should commit to that promise and grant the licenses that were granted by the previous government.
Speaker 1:
[13:57] Have you said that to Ed Miliband? He does not share your view. That's something that Westminster decides.
Speaker 15:
[14:03] As you know, it's a quasi-jurisional position right now and I'm making my view very clear. We made a commitment that we would honor the licenses granted by the previous government, we should honor that commitment and that includes Jack Dot and Rosebank. I say what I think in private and in public, as you can see from the comments I made about Keir Starmer back in February, so I made that clear here as well. Secondly, the transition is really important.
Speaker 1:
[14:26] Is there any point in you saying that, Anas? I get all the quasi-jurisional stuff and I don't know about you guys, but in the end, you can say this, particularly to the audience here in Aberdeen, where there are so many oil and gas jobs, but the fact is back at Westminster, no one is listening in the government, they are not listening to you, they are listening to Ed Miliband.
Speaker 15:
[14:43] Well, I think you can see there's lots of different figures in the UK government now also agreeing that we should honor the equipment made on Rosebank and Jackdaw. Well, let me make a couple of broader points. Oil and gas has been good for Aberdeen, the North East, Scotland and the UK. And oil and gas has got a significant role to play for decades to come. There can be no cliff edge and there can be no turning off the tap. We should not have any truck. We're repeating the mistakes made by Thatcher back with the mining sector. And that's why if we are going to get the large scale jobs, yes, we have to invest in renewables, but we also need the supply chains here in Scotland, because that's where the large scale jobs come from. And third, 24% of Scotland's electricity supply comes from nuclear sources. We should end the ideological block to clean nuclear energy in Scotland. That would overnight help unlock tens of billions of pounds of investment into Scotland, thousands of new jobs and greater energy security. And the promise I make is this, as First Minister, I will end that ideological block on day one of a Scottish Labour Government.
Speaker 7:
[15:45] On that point, you talked there about taxes that are undermining the industry. Offshore Energy UK have been absolutely clear that the energy profits levy, which your colleagues are overseeing in London, has been going on for far too long and at far higher rates, and it's causing about 1,000 job losses a month. So if you're so committed to oil and gas, Anas, will you commit that the energy profits levy will be scrapped? Because it is absolutely killing the country, undermining the very investment we need for a listen answer.
Speaker 15:
[16:13] Let me come back on that. First of all, the SNP supported the energy profits levy. For them now to pretend they're the great opponents of it is again for the birds. Secondly, everybody knows, it's no secret in this city, that the energy profit levy was going to come to an end, but the illegal actions of Benjamin Netanyahu and Donald Trump in Iran meant energy prices went through the roof again, meaning the windfall came back. Now, to pretend that somehow somebody else's fault is wrong, I don't want people in Scotland to suffer because of the actions of Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu. That's why we need emergency action. But when it's right that the windfall stopped, of course the windfall tax should end. I should emphasize that Màiri thinks it's OK if you're earning 33,500 pounds to pay more taxes in this country, but you want a tax cut for those that are making record profits from energy.
Speaker 1:
[17:03] In the blue and white top there.
Speaker 16:
[17:05] For the SNP's stance, how would you measure climate compatibility for each new drilling well? Because you truly have to measure that against drilling abroad, and I can just see it leading to legal disputes every time a company wants to invest, which will then make them go elsewhere.
Speaker 8:
[17:25] I've got two things, so I won't come back to you.
Speaker 1:
[17:26] Yes, one minute in this, you've got your hand right up there, one minute in this straight talk.
Speaker 17:
[17:30] We talk about the oil and gas energy being far away from that cliff edge, but frankly, the cliff edge is here. Companies have already shut down, people are losing their jobs daily, supply chain is drying up, understandably, and whilst various political parties kick the oil and gas industry around like a football, no decisions are being made. And I think, really, the time is now. A decision needs to be made now about progressing the two oil fields to be drilled.
Speaker 18:
[18:12] First of all, John Swinney should be here to answer to the people of the North East of Scotland as to his opposition to oil and gas. But I suspect he can't look the people in this area in the face, because what he's been doing in the last few weeks is pretending that the SNP have somehow softened or changed their position. The SNP, of course, used to famously shout, it's Scotland's oil, and now they want to keep it in the ground. And Màiri McAllan appears to forget her own position. She said, we do not agree with the UK government issuing new oil and gas licenses. That was unambiguous. That was clear. What she said tonight wasn't because she's following the John Swinney playbook, two weeks out from an election, trying to dupe people in the North East into thinking, somehow, the SNP are on your side. They're not. They ideologically oppose oil and gas, as do Labour, as does Ed Miliband. Will you do support the new drilling?
Speaker 7:
[19:14] Well, I've already given my position on that, but do you know what I think is really funny? So, just to take that to words, why have you got such a problem with women being represented in politics? Why can't I be here tonight? Why do I have to explain myself?
Speaker 18:
[19:26] That's not the point at all. John Swinney is responsible for the government. He is responsible for these decisions. He's been completely ambiguous about oil and gas.
Speaker 7:
[19:37] Your party raised the energy profits, Libby.
Speaker 18:
[19:40] The reason John Swinney isn't here is because he knows that he cannot answer these questions. What we should be doing, going back to the original question, is given the wake-up call right now, the volatility in our world, the fact we can't rely on allies as we once did, makes energy security absolutely critical. We need to drill for everything we have in the North Sea. We need to get behind the renewables industry to allow people like this lady's husband to get those jobs in the future industry of renewables, and we need to back new nuclear. Just this week, there was new nuclear plant beginning construction in Wales with the creation of 8,000 new jobs. But again, the boneheaded SNP are ideologically opposed to new nuclear, just as they are opposed to extracting oil and gas, while pretending that somehow they are maybe for it.
Speaker 19:
[20:44] Well, thanks, Fiona. Well, I hope we would all agree on this panel that the final boss of the 21st century is climate change, and it will be for the rest of our lives. But that said, we can't escape the reality that we still need oil and gas. We absolutely do, and that's a failure of successive governments in London and Westminster and in Edinburgh to drive down demand for oil and gas. So while we need that, we need to make an assessment, an environmental assessment. Does it make more environmental sense to take it from our own waters than it does to import it with the additional carbon from overseas? And if that's the case, then we should.
Speaker 1:
[21:19] So what's your position? Because look at your manifesto. I couldn't work it out if you support new oil and gas licenses or not. You're just saying we don't know enough yet.
Speaker 19:
[21:25] I think it's clear. If it makes more environmental sense to extract it from our waters than it does to import it with an additional carbon, then we should. But let me finish by saying this. Alex Salmond said 20 years ago he wanted to make Scotland the renewables capital of the world, the Saudi Arabia of the north. We are nowhere. We are still paying renewables companies 2 billion pounds a year not to put their wind energy into our grid because we don't have the capacity to receive it. We are nowhere in that just transition. And as a result, we are seeing this hesitancy in our government, in Edinburgh and Màiri McAllan's government. And that hesitancy is driving companies away from this city. I was at university in this city. I know the people in this town. I know the suffering that is going on because of the hesitancy and prevarication and the jobs that are being lost when they could be saved.
Speaker 1:
[22:15] We are in the striker top.
Speaker 9:
[22:19] Isn't the long term issue actually the fact that none of you can agree and you always chase votes and in actual fact if people sat down and took a long term view about energy security, we could have had nuclear power in place ten years ago and moved forward with things. And actually you just kick energy around like a football pending on chasing the votes.
Speaker 1:
[22:44] Women in the green glasses then.
Speaker 20:
[22:47] Hi, the overall question is that the root of all this problem is the reliance on oil and gas as an energy and as it was said is it not now time to make that final decision to move towards cleaner energy rather than coming to the same realisation every time there is conflict and war in the Middle East that, oh, actually, oil is not really a super reliable supply. This conversation happens every time there is conflict in the Middle East and the answer just keeps putting back to as said, oh, I guess we will see.
Speaker 1:
[23:20] You have people in the audience here saying it is costing jobs and will cost yet more jobs, but nonetheless you think we need to start moving away and as fast as possible.
Speaker 20:
[23:27] I think the solution is to start putting those transition plans in place, to start building those skills and stop saying, oh, well, we will see and we will try to figure out. You take people in oil and gas, you give them the new skills and give them a clear plan, this will be the job when you move into renewables.
Speaker 1:
[23:45] All right, listen, let me come back. Màiri, I want to come back to you because there are a couple of points. First of all, the man in the back, right at the very beginning, said that you are half in, half out. On the one hand, you are saying, well, as long as it is climate compatible and energy security, but you are not committing one way or the other. Then the man there in the blue and white top was saying, how are we ever going to meet the climate compatibility target? How is that ever realistic? How is it ever going to be climate compatible to dig fossil fuels out of the ground?
Speaker 7:
[24:08] I think the question, if I'm remembering correctly, was how do you calculate the climate compatibility? I would say that it has to assess the impact of burning the hydrocarbons as they are, but we have to compare that against the carbon impact of importing. Doing that alongside the question of energy security and how that's being served in the country just now allows us to look case by case, evidence led and decide whether something should go ahead or not.
Speaker 1:
[24:34] To the man back there saying you're half in, half out, you're trying to kind of sit on the fence on it.
Speaker 7:
[24:38] Somebody mentioned that the SNP has long supported the oil and gas industry and that remains the case, but supporting...
Speaker 1:
[24:44] You have not supported you, licences, absolutely not.
Speaker 7:
[24:48] Supporting the oil and gas industry in 2026, given not least the maturity of the basin and our desire to protect the communities and the world-class expertise that's surrounding it, is about supporting it now, supporting transition, what I like to call mind the gap. Make sure that we can get our renewables to a certain extent that we have sufficient jobs, communities are supported and people can transfer. Can I just close this by saying I don't represent an area around here. I represent a former mining area. And there are parts of my constituency that are still economically dislocated because the rug was pulled under their feet by Margaret Thatcher. The SNP will never let that happen to oil and gas, but we would be in a better position to do that if any of us here on the panel had control over this.
Speaker 1:
[25:33] The reason they're laughing is because they're losing jobs now.
Speaker 13:
[25:35] There's a thousand jobs every month getting lost in the office.
Speaker 18:
[25:39] A thousand jobs every month and you want to talk about Margaret Thatcher?
Speaker 7:
[25:41] It's the Energy Profits Levy.
Speaker 18:
[25:43] It's right now.
Speaker 7:
[25:44] It's the UK's Energy Profits Levy.
Speaker 18:
[25:47] Nicola Sturgeon said no to oil and gas and John Swinney has gone along with it and he's now pretending two weeks out from an election that he's maybe changed his mind.
Speaker 7:
[25:55] Another Energy Profits Levy, which Labour have continued, which is losing a thousand jobs.
Speaker 19:
[25:59] Màiri talks about her philosophy of mind the gap. The gap is here. It's here right now. People are losing jobs. I met a rig worker who was qualified for high work in the oil rigs. He wanted to move into the turbine sector but had to completely retrain for the health and safety certificates for exactly the same kind of work. Nothing about what your government is doing is making it easy to transition.
Speaker 15:
[26:26] Climate change you mentioned a few times. I think it's really important for us to make this point, to the lady's point about trying to find consensus and move forward. I think the big risk we have right now is if we do not get this transition right, we will lose the argument on climate change as well. Because if communities across the country think that to meet our obligations on climate change, that means fewer jobs, higher bills and greater energy insecurity, we will lose the argument and we will lose the fight against climate change. That's why we have to get the balance right.
Speaker 1:
[26:59] Very briefly, both of you. Sorry, Gillian, go on.
Speaker 14:
[27:01] But where we are because of significant underinvestment and inaction from successive governments, we've waited to see just transition plans for Grangemouth, the most modern, the North East. They've never materialised. And that's why we've left it to some of these big companies to cut and run. We should be putting the communities that are here at the heart of that and the workers that are in the sector at the heart of that.
Speaker 10:
[27:20] Just one very brief observation that in the last six weeks of the conflict in the Middle East, interesting to note that the US domestic gas price has not moved up because they have secure supply, affordable supply. We have got the opportunity to do that here in the UK. We should pump our own North Sea gas and give ourselves secure and affordable energy.
Speaker 1:
[27:42] Let's move on, this is a very important topic here in Aberdeen. I totally get that. The next question is something that lots of you raise. Before we do, I just want to say that our special election programmes continue. Next week we will be in Maidenhead. And the week after that, we are in London. Not on a Thursday, but on a Friday, because that will be May 8th. So the day after, not so much in Scotland, but the day after most of the election results come in, and we will see where we are. Possibly a very different landscape, who knows? I cannot say at that point, but if you would like to be in our audience, either Maidenhead or London, and just go to the Question Time website. All the instructions are there, and hopefully we shall see you on the night. Okay, let's take our next question from Lindsay. Lindsay Beckwith-McClaren.
Speaker 21:
[28:22] For to see billions wasted while services struggle, how will your party prove that it can spend public money better?
Speaker 1:
[28:31] Anas, do you want to kick us off?
Speaker 15:
[28:32] Well, the perfect example of the chronic waste under this SNP government is the fact that we spent half a billion pounds on two ferries that don't sale and was actually painted on windows as a publicity stunt for a former SNP First Minister. Or indeed another example in my home city of Glasgow, where a hundred million pound prison is now going to cost one billion pounds. So the comment that was made right at the start by the gentleman, that people feel as if they're paying more and more and getting less and less in return, that is a fact under this SNP government. So what are we going to do to fix it? First of all, we have to reform our procurement, so we ensure that Scottish contracts go to Scottish companies. Second, we've got to negotiate these contracts better, so we're not wasting money after money. Third, we've got to give power to the islanders, so they can make more decisions about their lives, because yes, we think about the economic incompetence, but for islanders, it's a loss of access to health care, a loss of trade because they can't get goods off the island, and a loss of tourism going on to the island. And fourth, we have to finally get growth in to our economy. That means abolishing business rates, so we can support our high streets and town centres, our retail and hospitality businesses. It means reforming our planning system, so we can get more homes built in this country, so people, yes, don't get homeless, but also we create more jobs in the future, and ending that ideological block to clean nuclear energy, so we can create the jobs of the future and have tens of billions of pounds of foreign direct investment coming into our country. So if you want to end the waste and respect people's money, we need to get the SNP out of office. They've had 20 years, give me five, and we'll demonstrate that we can make this country work for the great people of Scotland.
Speaker 18:
[30:12] Russell. Well, I think the starting point is to start treating taxpayers' money with respect. There's no such thing as government money, just using our money to spend on all sorts of fallies. We've heard about half a billion pounds on two dodgy ferries following a corrupt procurement process. We've heard about the billion pound Berlinie in Glasgow, which the SNP government are more interested in it being environmentally friendly than they are in giving good value to taxpayers. It's scandalous, and what we would do is start by cutting people's income tax. The good people of Scotland are paying 1.8 billion pounds a year more in income tax than they would for doing the exact same job elsewhere in the UK.
Speaker 1:
[30:59] And where will you find the money to do that from?
Speaker 18:
[31:01] Unlike every other party here, we've produced a manifesto that's costed. We've explained where every penny would come from, unlike the wish list that's been produced by other parties. Social Security? No, one of the places where we would find money is around the significant government waste, the huge layers of bureaucracy, all these public bodies that don't appear to serve any purpose in the interests of the public. There's a bit of gold floating down. And finally, finally, the benefits bill. And this is something, again, no other party wants to talk about.
Speaker 1:
[31:35] OK, so why don't you talk about it? What are you going to cut then?
Speaker 18:
[31:37] There's a £5 billion black hole looming in the Scottish public finances. We're two weeks out from an election, and everyone's pretending, or anyone else is pretending, that this doesn't exist. There will need to be hard choices.
Speaker 1:
[31:48] OK, so what's your number one hard choice, just so people know what they're going to be voting for?
Speaker 18:
[31:52] The Social Security Bill in Scotland, the Benefits Bill, while we all value the need to have a safety net of social security, it's grown out of control. Right now, it's sitting at about £7 billion a year in Scotland.
Speaker 1:
[32:03] OK, so what would you count?
Speaker 18:
[32:05] Well, we would require there to be checks and medical diagnosis for adult disability payments for mental health. That doesn't happen right now. We've seen a huge rise in the number of claims. Well, if your colleague Sally Donald, a former SMP candidate, no, this is important. This is a prime example of someone who was living an Instagram lifestyle and at the same time was in receipt of £20,000 of taxpayers' money in benefits because she apparently needed this money to live. The Social Security Agency has asked for this money back. The SMP have deliberately created what they call a light touch system. Of course, that's therefore going to be abused and we're all paying the price. It is wholly reasonable.
Speaker 1:
[32:56] Fewer people will receive disability benefits with the Conservatives.
Speaker 18:
[33:00] For mental health claims, there should be, I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect her to be a mental health diagnosis. And in addition to that, for it to be worked out, whether they need that money to live their lives to function properly.
Speaker 7:
[33:15] So you're coming after disabled people and people who are struggling with their mental health.
Speaker 18:
[33:20] If your candidate was disabled then, you'd look for that. Well, it's £20,000. That's a huge sum of money.
Speaker 7:
[33:27] This goes to the heart of the question of the type of country that we want to be, the type of society that we want to build. Now, the SNP, we believe, as social democrats, that government has got a responsibility both to take action to grow the strongest, most dynamic economy that we can, but equally to distribute wealth and to pursue fairness in our society. And we've done that by taking a progressive approach to taxation, which the Scottish Fiscal Commission has estimated has raised about an additional £1.8 billion than if we'd followed Russell Findlay and Liz Trust, who was an enthusiastic backer. Excuse me, I'll let you finish, so you should let me finish. That has allowed us to invest in policies like free prescriptions, whilst they're £10 an item elsewhere in the UK, not just a cost of living measure.
Speaker 1:
[34:10] Well, they're paid out of people's taxes, obviously.
Speaker 7:
[34:12] Well, of course, but we all know that, you know, it's funded. When it's about £10 per item down south, not just a cost of living measure, but a preventative health measure, it's allowed us to fund free tuition at university, because we believe that the highest levels of education should be something that everyone's entitled to.
Speaker 1:
[34:30] Coming back to disability for a minute, Màiri, so the Scottish Fiscal Commission forecast the total number of people receiving disability benefits in Scotland will exceed a million by 2030-31. That's one in six people. So that's a fairly sizeable proportion of our audience just looking at you. There's about 105, 110 of you here. Are you happy with that?
Speaker 7:
[34:51] Well, look, can I say that...
Speaker 1:
[34:53] Are you happy with that?
Speaker 7:
[34:54] Am I happy that people need disability support?
Speaker 1:
[34:56] No, that it will get to one in six being supported by the government.
Speaker 7:
[34:59] And just prior to parliament closing, we had a disability takeover of our Cabinet, where disabled persons' organisations came in to speak to government ministers, and one of the strongest messages that they had to us was that the support that's provided as a safety net in our society allows us not just to live our lives in the way that everybody else who isn't burdened with a disability gets up in the morning and is able to live, but it also allows us to contribute to the economy. And this is where there is a false dichotomy, because an investment in social security is an investment in our people, not just relieving, for example, children from the pain of poverty, but actually allowing them to grow up, contribute to our economy and saving money in the end on health and justice and other interventions. It's an economic measure as well as a social one.
Speaker 1:
[35:48] The man in the yellow sweater, yes.
Speaker 5:
[35:50] Yes, yes, just going back to the point about the mental health diagnosis. I'm wondering where that resource will come from.
Speaker 1:
[36:00] What to have? To have the people who can give, who can make that diagnosis.
Speaker 5:
[36:02] Give that diagnosis, yes.
Speaker 22:
[36:03] If anyone, the NHS is on its knees.
Speaker 1:
[36:06] OK. Let's get further. The man just a little bit further across with the glasses, yes.
Speaker 23:
[36:12] I actually just wanted to ask the representatives of both Scottish and I guess the UK government a short question each. Màiri McAllan talks about the priorities in education and in health and all of the rest of it. I've noted in the dying days of the current Scottish government, you chose to remove the funding for tuition fees for loans for second degree students. In terms of your medical dental students, that significantly impacts them because they now can't access a student loan. Do you think the priorities are right in terms of benefits versus that? Could I ask Anas Sarwar very quickly?
Speaker 1:
[36:48] I mean, I'm going to have to let them answer the original question as well, but far away.
Speaker 23:
[36:51] Very briefly, you talk about the economy, but the UK government blocked 1.5 billion pounds of investment in the Highlands, and you argued national security. You were quite lax with national security when it came to Peter Mandelson, so I'm wondering how that balances.
Speaker 1:
[37:06] And you're talking about a wind farm, I believe? Yes, Anne. Let's have the man here in the pattern shirt in the front, in the middle.
Speaker 24:
[37:12] So, it's been mentioned twice, the additional income that's been generated through taxes, the 1.8 billion pounds. The IFS report recently pointed out the fact that about 40% of that was actually never recovered due to new changes in the way that people legally avoid paying that tax for additional pension contributions, et cetera. So, actually, the 1.8 is approximately 1 billion. And the gap between the income that's coming in through additional taxes and the outgoings in the country is getting bigger. So, the gap is getting bigger and bigger. How are we going to afford that as a country as things go forward?
Speaker 1:
[37:50] OK, let me just hear one last thing, because you wanted to come in.
Speaker 22:
[37:52] Why is your solution to income tax to go after those collecting disability checks instead of taxing the millionaires and billionaires who bleed this country dry and fight against the working class?
Speaker 1:
[38:03] OK, very briefly, I want to come on to my questions.
Speaker 18:
[38:07] In this country, the gentleman identifiers are sky high and they're not effective. The SNP think they can keep turning the screw on working people and that the benefits bill can keep growing exponentially. It's unaffordable.
Speaker 14:
[38:19] But what about people on benefits that are in work already, Russell, and you're just... Well, why don't you hold some of your millionaire pals to account to actually make work pay rather than having people relying on benefits to top up their wages because their wages aren't enough to cover their cost of living?
Speaker 18:
[38:36] We believe in a benefit system that's fair for people. Those who need the help genuinely should get it, not candidates like Sally Donald, for example.
Speaker 1:
[38:44] Can I just say, hang on, I just have to say this. For legal reasons, I'm sure you all understand that Sally Donald has strenuously denied alleged benefits for it. I just need to put that there. That's something that I have to make clear. Do you know, Malcolm, let me come to you. How will your party prove you can spend public money better? What you want to do is obviously cut taxes, but the IFS says your rationale behind cutting taxes and the money that might then generate in the economy is just a mirage.
Speaker 10:
[39:14] So, we've actually just had the 25th anniversary of devolution. It's quite always a good time to look at it as a sort of silver jubilee. How's it gone? What's gone well? What's not gone so well? And in that time, we've had labor and SMP governments. In that 25 years, when we started out on this journey, the state spending in Scotland was 43% of the economy. Today, it's 55% of the economy. So what we've had is an exercise of politicians spending other people's money, of spending your money. And the exam question is, with all that extra spending, have we got better hospitals, have we got better schools, have we got a better roads, better economy? If the answer to that is, it says that the answer to every question or every problem is not always to spend money.
Speaker 13:
[39:57] Well, we've got more GPs per head, we've got the best pay and teachers, we've got the best paid nurses, we've got the wealthiest percent.
Speaker 10:
[40:04] The economy is flatlining. Our economy grows at less than 1%. Because of Brexit, which you designed.
Speaker 1:
[40:10] Màiri, we let you speak, you've now got to let others speak.
Speaker 10:
[40:12] We need to grow the economy at 2% to 3%. We need to grow the economy. What is the economy? The economy is you. The economy is people who work. And you've been taxed so high, you're now not bothering. You're told you've got the broadest shoulders. Well, you're now struggling at your shoulders and saying, why would I bother working an extra shift when I need to get taxed all the more? We've got a ridiculous thing, we've got six and now category bands of income tax. And we're seeing, for example, in the NHS, where doctors and nurses are managing their hours. They don't want to get tripped up and pulled into higher tax bands. And then they also have marginal tax reduces. So what we're going to do is simplify all this. And what we're going to do is we're going to make the six bands back to three bands, same as the UK, which will cost 1.2 billion. And then we're ambitious to make Scotland the best part of the UK. We're going to cut each band by one P, below that cost 800 million. Together, that is 2 billion pounds invested into you, which will incentivise you to be more productive and work a bit more and grow the economy. And that 2 billion is only 3% of the total Hollywood budget.
Speaker 1:
[41:15] It is not.
Speaker 10:
[41:16] It is not a big number.
Speaker 1:
[41:17] You know that the IFS says your figures are just not credible.
Speaker 10:
[41:22] For all of you out there who run businesses or manage your own household account, how many of you, if I asked you overnight, you had to go and cut your budget by 3%. Put your hand up if you couldn't cut your budget by 3%. Nobody has put their hand up. It's not a big number, folks. We are going to give you your money back.
Speaker 1:
[41:39] Well, it might be a big number to them.
Speaker 10:
[41:41] We are going to give you money back to incentivise you to grow the economy. And if you grow the economy, we will collect more tax revenue.
Speaker 21:
[41:48] Which means you will pay for more tax.
Speaker 1:
[41:49] Alright, Malcolm, let me bring Alex in. How will your party prove you can spend public money better?
Speaker 19:
[41:53] Your question is exactly the right question to ask of this government. Because people look at how their money is being spent. But the SNP government, they see incompetence and failure demand. Incompetence. In the ferries, Anas is right to say. If you're living in our Gallowbutte Council area right now, you've had the Easter holiday getaway season absolutely ruined, disruption to almost every Scottish island. We need to be paying compensation to island communities and coastal communities right now. But failure demand, biggest failure demand you can point at is right now in our NHS, a crisis in our NHS. On any given night, there are 2,000 Scots well enough to go home but too frail to do so without a social care package to receive them to their own home or a care bed in a local care home. Last week, I went to meet Margaret McGill in the North Highlands. She'd been in hospital for 19 months or 16 months, a year beyond the point at which her doctors told her she was fit enough to go home. Her home had been adapted, but there were no care workers servicing the village around where she lived to receive her. That stay in hospital cost your taxpayer purse 200,000 pounds. All told, it's costing the NHS 1.2 million pounds a day to keep 2,000 people in hospital who neither need nor want to be there. That's cancelling operations. It's leading to people waiting in corridors.
Speaker 1:
[43:11] So how much do you think it will cost to fix Search and Case Scotland as you would like? Because I couldn't find that anywhere in your manifesto either.
Speaker 19:
[43:16] Well, it is in my manifesto, Fiona. I'll show you the page.
Speaker 1:
[43:19] There's no costing attached to it.
Speaker 19:
[43:20] There's a 25-page costing document alongside it and we would spend 400 million for carers.
Speaker 1:
[43:26] Yeah, but not for the other half of the equation.
Speaker 19:
[43:27] No, social care, 400 million pounds in making social care.
Speaker 1:
[43:31] But not just for that care, it's having enough beds, it's having enough places for people to go.
Speaker 19:
[43:35] If I can finish the answer, I absolutely agree, because if we invest the 400 million pounds to make social care a profession of choice, if we value our care workers, we can disrupt that care bottleneck, which is keeping people on corridor beds in A&E for 25 hours, which is not a place of treatment, it's a place of waiting. We need to value our care and we need to get them seen.
Speaker 1:
[43:58] Gillian, the green manifesto is the longest one out of everybody's, as far as I know. You certainly got the most pledges.
Speaker 14:
[44:04] We've got lots of ideas.
Speaker 1:
[44:04] You've got, I mean, it's 300 odd. I mean, according to the IFS, it is a bonanza of offerings with very little about how you pay for it. So, how can you convince our question that you would spend public money wisely?
Speaker 14:
[44:18] There are several pages on how we raise more money. And I think we've done some good work in the last session about how we make sure that those who earn the most pay their fair share. But actually, what we need to do now is shift that focus towards wealth. The top 2% in Scotland have more than 50% of the rest of the population. So, actually making sure that we tax that wealth fairly to fund public services, but also making sure we do things like tax those companies with out of town distribution centres like Amazon, putting that money straight back into high streets to support those local businesses that aren't just businesses, they're parts of the community and they serve as part of the social fabric as well. One of the things we absolutely have to do for local authorities in particular is scrap and replace the council tax. It's no longer doing what it should. It's hugely regressive and we need to put in something that is fairer for everyone, but also make sure that we deliver that money to local authorities to make sure that they have that money to spend on the local pools, whatever other services that is that needs that support. But it's quite rich to hear from two people on this panel whose parties when they were in them was responsible for wrecking the economy and where we are with the hyperinflation under Liz Truss. I would now like to make you think that we can just cut the public service to fit what it is we want to do. Any form of efficiency that we see from anyone shouldn't be a cover for austerity. These are people's jobs that we're talking about, people's lives, and we need to make sure that those jobs are there for people too.
Speaker 1:
[45:57] Let me squeeze in one last question from Kurt Matthews. Where are you sitting? There you go.
Speaker 25:
[46:02] What will it take for the UK Prime Minister of the Day, Anas, to recognise the democratic rights of the Scottish electorate?
Speaker 1:
[46:11] Right, obviously you're talking about independence.
Speaker 25:
[46:13] I'm talking about constitutional matters, yes.
Speaker 1:
[46:15] And the SNP, for those, I'm sure you're all aware of it here, you might not perhaps be quite so aware of it at home, the SNP have said that if they win a 65 seat majority on May 7, possibly with the support of the Greens, they will try again to have a second independence referendum. Anas.
Speaker 15:
[46:35] First of all, John Swinney might want to be arrogant enough to say that this election is already done. He's wrong, the people that will decide this election are the good people of this country and they vote on May 7. Secondly, I don't believe this election is about whether the SNP get a majority or not. I believe it's about whether the SNP stay in government or not. And I'm being open and honest with people about my own position. I don't support independence. I don't support a referendum. But I'm actually not asking anybody in this country to change their mind on whether they support independence or not. I'm making a different proposition in this country. And that is we have huge challenges. We've heard them already today. The NHS, our skills system, our education system. Why not for the next five years, we concentrate on making our country better right now? And then at some point in the future, people in Scotland choose a different final destination, so be it. Because, let's be honest, for the 800,000 waits in the NHS, many of them will be pro-independence supporters. For the 10,000 children that are homeless, many of those families will come from pro-independence families. I want a Scotland that works for every single one of them, whether they're pro-independence or not. And that means changing the government in Scotland and making sure we fix the mess, get the basics right, and build a better future for every single person in our great country.
Speaker 8:
[47:53] So we're about two weeks out from polling.
Speaker 1:
[47:59] If the polls are to be believed, and things can change, of course, but you may be in the position, if you want to become First Minister, that you will need the support of other parties. Would you welcome support from Reform, for example?
Speaker 12:
[48:08] No, I want nothing to do with Reform.
Speaker 15:
[48:10] I want nothing to do with Reform.
Speaker 7:
[48:11] That's not what you said. It's not what your party was briefing.
Speaker 15:
[48:18] Can I just say to Màiri, she's a parent like me, and to think that a political party that has targeted me and my family in a very personal way are somehow the same people that I'm in secret cahoots with, I think actually you should look in a moral mirror.
Speaker 1:
[48:37] Let's clear one thing up.
Speaker 15:
[48:40] And it's not just for me, there are lots of families across this country. Look, I chose to come into politics, and I'm in a very privileged position, I get to speak my mind. There are lots of families right now that are fearful of the prospect of reform politics and reform being anywhere in New York or...
Speaker 1:
[48:55] Let me ask you then, Anas, just wait one second.
Speaker 15:
[48:57] I want Scotland to utterly reject Lord Malcolm Offord and reform on May the 7th.
Speaker 1:
[49:02] OK. Let's clear one thing up then. Because last time you pair were on Question Time together, you, Malcolm, said that Anas came up to you and said, let's work together to get the SNP out. And you both, well, you said that. You both accused each other of lying about it. So where's the truth of it?
Speaker 15:
[49:19] Fiona, you've seen the size of the green room. The idea that in a Question Time green room, with six political parties, all the staff, all the Question Time staff is the place to have secret talks with Lord Malcolm Offord, who spent tens of thousands of pounds, his party, targeting me, saying I'm not even loyal to my own country, Scotland. It's utter nonsense. And I want reform, let's make it really clear, I want reform to get absolutely pumped in this election. So if you want to... .reform, vote Labour on May the 7th.
Speaker 1:
[49:51] So you're saying, and some of the green rooms are bigger than others, it has to be said, you're saying that we are calling him a liar, basically.
Speaker 10:
[49:57] No, I'm not calling him a liar. I told the story that in the green room, in Paisley, which is quite a big room, actually, Paisley Town Hall, beautiful building, just at the end, after Anas had lambasted me on the show, it was my first time on the show.
Speaker 15:
[50:08] What did I say?
Speaker 10:
[50:09] And called me an obvious man, etc., a very personal attack on me. And at the end of it, you bounced up as if you were my long-lost friend and said, well, you're going to do very well in the election, we need to work together to remove the SNP.
Speaker 15:
[50:22] So, Anas, you can't have it both ways.
Speaker 10:
[50:26] And right now, we're winning all the arguments in the Scottish election. Because we're now talking about the energy cost being too high.
Speaker 1:
[50:34] It needs to be a foreign policy.
Speaker 14:
[50:36] It's a bit of a boring cycle drama.
Speaker 10:
[50:38] And they're talking about control of immigration. So we're doing, the public are backing reform very well. Thank you, Anas. And when you come third in this election, you'll need to explain to your own party how that happened.
Speaker 1:
[50:50] Malcolm, if you are reformer, clearly a unionist party, you're anti-independence, you've got three candidates who support independence.
Speaker 10:
[50:57] Are they going to help the SEP? Well, the Conservatives have got a candidate in Shettleston.
Speaker 1:
[50:59] I'm not asking you that, Sir, it's just I'm asking about you. Why have you got three candidates who support independence?
Speaker 10:
[51:03] So we are, the clear name is Reform UK. So we believe in the UK. We don't believe a referendum is what anybody wants right now. We're not getting that on the streets at all.
Speaker 1:
[51:12] Why do you have candidates supporting it then?
Speaker 10:
[51:13] We're a broad church and we have a number of people who come to us who no longer support the idea of independence. People who are allowed to change their minds as part of a government.
Speaker 1:
[51:20] You've got three candidates who do support it.
Speaker 10:
[51:22] Out of 73, what's the problem with three out of 73?
Speaker 8:
[51:25] Because it's a key policy for reform, that's the problem.
Speaker 10:
[51:30] We don't advocate breaking up the United Kingdom.
Speaker 1:
[51:33] Except they do, obviously.
Speaker 10:
[51:35] They have said on record they do not believe in that. They've come to our party because they want to make Scotland the most successful part of the UK. And that's what we're going to do in the next ten years.
Speaker 1:
[51:44] I'm afraid we have not got much time left, but I need to get round all you. Gillian, obviously, independence is something you want to see.
Speaker 14:
[51:51] Yes, and we've said repeatedly that a pro-independence majority of any parties in the Scottish Parliament should be that trigger for a referendum. I voted no in 2014. I'd really like to redeem myself and make sure that we do have that referendum this time round. Many of us were taken in and believed the parties that were round this table about what it was that they said. Fear drives a lot of people. Actually, what we need to do is build that hopeful, progressive, independent Scotland and make sure that we can show people how much better it would be if we take decisions closer to ourselves and if we can then devolve some of the decisions that we take at Holyrood to local authorities to put them closer to the people and make sure that they're taken democratically and locally.
Speaker 1:
[52:37] Which is not what you think, Alex.
Speaker 19:
[52:38] Well, no, it's not. Listen, Fiona, there are young people who will be casting their first ever vote in a democratic election on May 7th who have only known this discussion, this division and this debate. Now, I understand and I respect the people who have a different view to me on the Constitution. I absolutely get that. But I think that Scotland has got so much going for it right now that we just need to flex the muscles of our nation's parliament, which I don't think the SNP has done in the last 19 years. No wonder people are tired and frustrated. They're right to be. We need change, but it needs to be changed with fairness at its heart, whether that's on fixing our health service, whether it's driving down the cost of living, lifting up Scottish education back to its best by taking mobile phones out of schools and putting pupil support assistance in, getting Scotland moving again, fixing our roads, dueling lethal roads like the A9 and fixing the ferries for good. You can vote for that. In those 10 constituencies, Lib Dems are poised to beat the SNP across the country. But wherever you are, vote for the Lib Dems on that second peach-colored ballot. For the first time in a long time, we will elect a local champion who will fight for you and your community.
Speaker 1:
[53:45] And should it be in a position where your votes might secure?
Speaker 19:
[53:50] I'm really glad to give back to this.
Speaker 1:
[53:52] Labour and Anas Sarwar's First Minister, would you give him your support?
Speaker 19:
[53:56] Fiona, you introduced me by saying this was already a done deal. Listen, there are no pacts or alliances with Labour.
Speaker 1:
[54:01] I'm not saying it's a done deal.
Speaker 19:
[54:02] No, and I didn't either. There's been misreportion.
Speaker 1:
[54:03] OK, but what I'm asking you is would you give Labour your support if it came to this and Labour could become First Minister?
Speaker 19:
[54:08] This country needs change, my goodness, for all the questions. I'm about to answer it. For all the questions that Scotland currently faces, the answer to none of them is a third decade of SNP power. If we can see a pathway to change which shares our values, then of course we will look at it.
Speaker 1:
[54:25] Russell?
Speaker 18:
[54:26] First of all, Reform UK are not a unionist party. Nigel Farage cannot be trusted on the union. He said as much recently he thinks another referendum could be reasonable in fielding pro-independence candidates as a bit of a giveaway. John Swinney, what concerns me about this election is John Swinney says that he's going to win a majority. He's that arrogant. Nicola Sturgeon has said it today, and they've said that that will mean they will go straight down to Downing Street and demand another referendum. And with this weak and wobbly Prime Minister in London who won't stand up to anyone, I mean, Anas Sarwar can't stop him from doing anything. He won't listen to him. There's a very real risk that we're going to sleepwalk back in time into the divisive distraction of that whole period. You'll have a government in Edinburgh for five years. All they'll do is they've done for the past 20 years is fail to fix Scotland and obsess about this constitutional row. And we can stop that. Reform can't be trusted in the Union. Labour are too weak. Vote Scottish Conservative on your peach-coloured ballot paper. That's how we stopped the SNP in 2021. And that's how we stopped them in 2016. And we can stop them again.
Speaker 1:
[55:34] So, Màiri, let me come back to you. Let me come back to you. Ross, I've got to let Màiri in, because otherwise she won't get a chance. So, the question from Kerr. Now, hang on, because Màiri is not going to get a fair crack of the whip. And she needs to. So, Kerr's question is, what would it take for the UK Prime Minister of the day to recognise the democratic rights of the Scotia electorate? You've already tried before. Well, you've had a referendum, you wanted another one, you weren't allowed to have one. You've had West Streetings in the last day or two, they're just not going to get one. Ultimately, in the end, with the best of knowledge, you just can't do it.
Speaker 7:
[56:05] So, when it comes to West Streeting, I think we can say quite clearly that the nation of Scotland does not take its instructions for the MP from Ilford North. But, look, I have respect for everybody on this side of the debate, but whether you support independence or not, we are supposed to be a functioning democracy and we should understand if this is supposed to be a voluntary union, how Scotland can choose to remove itself from that. That was exactly the gentleman's question. Nobody on the panel, actually none of the unionist parties, have answered that. We have spoken a lot tonight about the cost of living pressures on people. People are absolutely right to look around them and say, why am I working harder than ever and why does it feel like I am getting less back? Well, let me tell you. It is because for all of my adult life now we have had a financial crash, we moved into 12 years of austerity between these two, which the London School of Economics will later say caused 190,000 excess deaths. We then went headlong into Brexit, an absolutely catastrophic decision that could have wiped up to 8% of our economy. Now we are in a cost of living crisis with a dreadfully weak Prime Minister who is doing nothing about it, whilst small independent Ireland is about to tuck into a 700 million euro support package. I feel fortunate to live in Scotland and have the opportunity of a better future than for this, a hopeful future where we join the nations of the world back in the European Union, playing a positive role, a hopeful role, proposing peace and defending human rights and looking after people at home. That's the future we can have with the SNP.
Speaker 15:
[57:34] I've also lived your entire adult life with an SNP government that doesn't take responsibility for anything.
Speaker 1:
[57:40] I'm really sorry to say we are out of time. Lots of you have got your hands up. I just can't get to you because our time is up. For now, from the panel, thank you very much indeed. From our audience, thank you so much for coming along and putting your questions. And of course, to you at home, thank you very much for watching. From Aberdeen, until next week.