transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:05] Go to Open Question of the Week, Kaz.

Speaker 2:
[00:07] What's up, Shoes?

Speaker 1:
[00:09] We were just discussing news that quote unquote broke as we came on the air. Seth Rollins walked off the Good Morning Football set after a fight, not a physical fight, a verbal dispute with host Kyle Brant. We talk about all these media celebrities that have been involved in the WWE world as of late. And I don't know why it never occurred to me to ask you this. If you could have anybody come on Hot 97 in the morning and start a fake fight with you, who would it be?

Speaker 2:
[00:46] Hmm. Fake fight, man.

Speaker 1:
[00:52] Or I mean, it can be Fistica. So you can do Cameron. I mean, are we doing Cameron style?

Speaker 2:
[00:57] Yeah, you know, I feel like.

Speaker 1:
[00:58] It can be Cameron, Kyle Brandt. It can be what? Or Stephen A. Smith. It can be whatever. Just when I say fake fight, I mean, like, you're not really like it's a war.

Speaker 2:
[01:05] I'll tell you, yo, I think I could give Cody Rhodes some real juice. I think I can give him some real juice. I know he's the world champ. I know he's headlined dozens of, he's headlined WrestleMania's over and over at this point. But I think if he came to Hot 97 and got into a verbal altercation with me.

Speaker 1:
[01:25] He might end racism forever again. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[01:27] Well, listen, we'll get down to the brass taxes of it all. And to the point that maybe he lunges at me like Jay lunged that camera on. I don't know. I don't know. We've been going back and forth. He's probably the one person on the show that we talk about the most, that I talk to the most, that hasn't done the show since he returned. I think you have his first interview, like right after Wrestling Seth. And he hasn't come back since. So maybe I corner him on Hot97. And then I don't know, I give him a nice little pot face in the middle of the interview.

Speaker 1:
[02:06] Oh, man.

Speaker 2:
[02:07] We have a nice little scuffle. You know, yes, we do some real good business. Pay it off. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1:
[02:13] I'm surprised as a fan that you're not saying that you would stay the hell away from the main event scene after what just transpired at WrestleMania. But I mean, I think it's a good idea. It's, you know, in a vacuum that's good booking.

Speaker 2:
[02:25] Here's the thing. I wouldn't be interfering in any title matches or 20-year legacy runs at all. I would just, for the love of the game, just piss off Cody Rhodes. That's where McAfee and Jelly Roll went wrong, right? Like we have this 20-year history between these two guys, and they shoved themselves in it. I'm just going to smack Cody for the love of the game, and then we got to talk it out and do some good business at Saturday Night's Main Event.

Speaker 1:
[02:52] You know how sometimes at like All-Star or whatever, there'll be a charity game that's like NBA writers versus players or versus coaches or whatever? Like, do you think we're getting close enough that we can have an all-media crossover Royal Rumble at some point?

Speaker 2:
[03:10] Who would be in this Royal Rumble?

Speaker 1:
[03:13] I mean, I think you'd have to put Logan Paul in there and make him the favorite just because he's the only one with any experience. But you got Stephen A, you got Jelly Roll. Obviously, you got Pat McAfee. Now, we got Kyle Brandt, we got Cameron. I mean, the list of potential podcast hosts, guests or podcast host contestants is limitless.

Speaker 2:
[03:35] We could definitely do a Survivor Series. We could definitely do a Survivor Series. We could do McAfee, Killer Cam, Kyle Brandt, Logan Paul, I Show Speed against.

Speaker 1:
[03:51] And Kaz in this story.

Speaker 2:
[03:52] And Kaz, yeah, of course. And Kaz. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1:
[03:57] I mean, you could show up to be their manager, but they would put you in as the heater in no time. They're like, we need some size in here.

Speaker 2:
[04:02] Yeah, I was about to say, I'm bigger than most of those guys. You know what I mean? Kyle Branson, Kyle Branson is in hella good shape, but he's not boxing me out in the rebounds. All right, let's just put it that way. But yeah, I think we'd hold our own. We'd probably get cooked. We'd definitely get cooked, because Logan Paul would be our anchor, basically. But we'd surprise some folks. We'd bust out a few surprising moves.

Speaker 1:
[04:29] But you know you'd last long enough for Logan and Speed to do their crazy spots. All you have to do is just figure out some way to steal the win after that.

Speaker 2:
[04:38] And Cam's going to fight dirty, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1:
[04:40] I was going to say, he has like the Sheik's Fireball, you know?

Speaker 2:
[04:44] Yeah, some. He's just tossing people's faces. Cam's definitely going to fight dirty.

Speaker 1:
[04:50] Oh, okay. I'm all the way in. All right, I forget anything bad I've said about media crossover. Wrestling's good again. Let's start the show. Welcome to The Masked Man with Kaz. We have a very special interview with Bryan Storkel, Director of Real American, the whole Kogan documentary, coming up later in the show. Also, I recorded a very special public service announcement yesterday. You can find that on our new YouTube page, YouTube slash at Ringer Wrestling, or on Instagram, or even there's a clip on Twitter, whatever, just find our stuff. It's very serious. Did you see that Kaz? I recorded like a... Okay, good. A little bit long. Apologize. The next one will be shorter. But yeah, I mean, we did a little bit tongue in cheek, but the message was real. I think it's just a little bit disheartening for folks like us to be lumped in with folks like that.

Speaker 2:
[06:10] So let me tell you something, right? So let's let people inside...

Speaker 1:
[06:14] Oh, wait, I should say what we're talking about. I want to hear... I'm just setting you up. I apologize for cutting you off. It was about fan interaction at WrestleMania when all those fans were physically accosting, and the wrestlers at the MGM Grand are filming them in the bathrooms, groping people at meet and greets. And this is all set against the backdrop of numerous instances of stalking and home invasion and assault that wrestlers have to deal with over the years. Well, anyway, and I was just my, my more, the moral of the story was like, be a normal person if you're a wrestling fan, stop doing this shit.

Speaker 2:
[06:51] Yeah, I mean, we were, we were at the MGM Grand for a couple of days. I had switched, shout out to Netflix. They got me a swanky hotel at the Fountain Blue. And I'll be honest, when they got me that hotel, I promise there's a point to the story. When they got me this hotel, I was like-

Speaker 1:
[07:08] This is a humble brag city, go ahead.

Speaker 2:
[07:10] When Netflix got me the nice hotel at the Fountain Blue, I really contemplated if I was even going to check in because we were in a talent hotel. And a lot of times we go traveling for a lot of these events. We end up in a talent hotel and after big shows, we'll catch drinks at the bar or there'll be like an event that we all sort of go to. And it's usually pretty cool. And of course you're going to run into some fans. And of course there's going to be a lot of folks. But for the most part, if talent wrestlers are in the lobby bar downstairs in the hotel, in most of our instances, the bar used to be sort of like a safe haven, right? Even if you were a fan, you just kind of sit back and be cool until they're on their way out or they're on their way in. And like, you know, if they were in the moves for it, they'd sign something.

Speaker 1:
[08:06] Well, at Philly, what was the town hotel in Philly? Your app doesn't matter. We don't need to shout it out. But at the town hotel in Philly, they had security at the door, which is the norm. Like if you didn't have a room key to that hotel, you couldn't come inside.

Speaker 2:
[08:18] Couldn't even get in. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1:
[08:20] And then when you walk in, the lobby bar is like exposed to everything. You can see the bar from when you walk. It's like a football field away, but you can see it. And there's no walls or anything. So it's just, if you're eating, if you're a wrestler, whatever you're eating there, you're exposed. But theoretically, you're in a relatively safe haven. Although it wasn't booked out, right? Like it wasn't all WWE. So there were fans, people like us, who had rooms in there. But then separate from that, they had the whole restaurant like blocked off so talent could drink in there, drink or eat or do whatever they want. They could hang out in there without any sort of question about who's going to be around.

Speaker 2:
[08:58] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[09:00] But Vegas is just not like that, because Vegas' lobby is a casino.

Speaker 2:
[09:04] Well, not that hotel. You know what I mean? So that's what I was saying. After two nights, we hung out with lots of folks that we don't need to name. But yeah, there were definitely lots of stories of people camping out, being very intrusive. It was just weird and creepy. I don't know if it's because it was Vegas and it's a casino, and there's already sort of like that seedy undertone of like, you know, uneasy queasiness when you get to Vegas, just because it's a city of sin and all that type of stuff. But yeah, no, like there was lots of creepy stuff going on as far as like fan interactions. And you're right, it definitely does make the rest of the fans, you know, look crazy in comparison. And I know for the past couple of weeks, I've had lots of things to say about fans and social media and these parasocial relationships and, you know, how some folks need to touch grass and understand that like, you know, this is just entertainment, all this type of stuff. But a lot of it, not for nothing, like I saw a lot of this stuff in Live and Live in Color. And I'm glad it became a big story because it was almost like, it can't be like this all the time. Because it was like watching a lot of those weirdos on social media in real life, like do weirdo stuff that like it just doesn't, it didn't compute to me that like, oh, something's off here. Like, yeah, the security is a little lax. Like, yeah, like we are kind of just in the middle of the casino right here, you know? And it left a lot of people exposed for some, you know, not so great interactions that unfortunately went viral after the weekend, you know? So after Friday, like when Saturday came around, I was like, yeah, I'm going to the other hotel. This is, it's nuts in here, you know what I'm saying? And, you know, that's the real thing.

Speaker 1:
[10:57] We were there for basically a week. So, you know, the first few days we were there, it was super quiet. And I was just like, I don't know how, but this is working out so well. But then, yeah, by the weekend, I mean, I, you know, it's just so, well, it's just so crazy in there anyway, fans are not. But that fans are using that as an opportunity to do these, like, just awkward approaches. I mean, I know some people are like, don't have the sense of propriety of right and wrong that everybody does. And, you know, the odds are there's not, the odds are, none of these wrestlers are in physical danger, but who the fuck knows, man? I mean, like I said, there's been some real serious instances. Liv Morgan just told a story about a fan that, like, showed up at her house and rung the doorbell for like two hours, you know?

Speaker 2:
[11:42] They were like, um, and that should not have to wait. It should not have to wait for something to happen. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1:
[11:47] Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I was like, WWE, their credit told, called the FBI. You know, they were just like, this is not a, you know, in-house security issue.

Speaker 2:
[11:54] Yeah. And what makes it more concerning too, was cause like, or glaring, I would say, is because it's the same city they were in last year, right? So like they were in the Fat and Blue last year.

Speaker 1:
[12:05] Which was pretty isolated. I mean, it's, it's isolated on the strip. Like it's not a place you would just ever walk to if you were staying in the strip proper. It's on the strip, but it's a ways up. And it's just a whole different vibe there, you know? And there were fans there waiting for autographs in the lobby, but not that many until, I mean, maybe Saturday night, Sunday night. Yeah. But they, I feel like they were roping people off outside there too. Am I crazy to remember that? No, it was definitely like that. It's like you set up the pig pen and the pigs run in. It's like that, but they, I mean, it makes sense. If you actually want to get autographs, stay here. Maybe the wrestlers will do it. But yeah, I mean, it's just a, I mean, listen, we're privileged. We're friends, you more so than me, friends with some of these wrestlers. We get to see him and hang out. But like last year at the Font Blu, we talked to Omas. Yeah. He was a great dude. Someone like I'm acquainted with and he was always very nice and kind and wonderful dude to talk to. But if I hadn't had your end to meet him in the first place, I don't even know how I met him, but if I hadn't met him, I mean, like I would have, and if I had been the same guy in the same place, I would have said, oh my God, to the person next to me, oh my God, there's big Omas. And that would have been the end of it, right? Even if I was like a kid, I probably would have been hiding behind my dad's leg or something. Like I'm not. But it's just that weird sense of propriety that I just don't, the reverence, whatever that we don't get. I mean, there were years and years around which WrestleMania as a job. I just hadn't been around very long. I was always friends with Rosenberg, who was always friends with people, and I was friends with you and whatever else. But I guess it's such a small point. I felt so dumb, so I didn't make it in the PSA. But to me, if I was in the Talent Hotel and I wasn't involved, I wasn't a podcaster, I would just be like, holy shit, what a lucky moment. And I would go to the bar with my friend, and I would just have a drink and just feel really lucky to watch over my shoulder, like whoever passed by. Also, maybe it doesn't occur to everybody, but if I'm in a hotel at night, I would like to be getting a drink with my friend. It's just kind of regular human being stuff. It's like, oh, what are we going to do here? Are we going to mill around awkwardly like filming people, or are we just going to have a beer?

Speaker 2:
[14:31] It's a lack of social awareness that you notice come through on social media. Like a lot of times, and this is probably, you know what? This is definitely a teaching moment for myself because I always sort of put weird fans in this box of social media and just being like, you can't be like that in real life, right? You know, and you very much proved that you are, you know what I'm saying? And on that same note, Dave, I got to say, I'm so proud of how mixy you were this weekend. You were the mixiest. What is mixy? Mixy. That's how you know. That's how you know. Dave was being social. Dave means you were in the mix. It was like, there were lots of hanging out.

Speaker 1:
[15:21] It was the best hang. We had a great time.

Speaker 2:
[15:24] We definitely had some really good hangs. You know, and man, you got an iPhone, too. You were tweeting. You were live tweeting Raw from ringside.

Speaker 1:
[15:36] I was so proud of you. And I was live tweeting during Dynamite last night. And I have to defend my takes later on. So we're definitely going to do that. We didn't talk about Raw. Speaking of the hang.

Speaker 2:
[15:49] Yeah, we culminated our weekend of hangs, front row center or front row aisle at Monday Night Raw, T-Mobile Arena and Rappers Row. So for Dave, who doesn't necessarily come to a lot of the Netflix events that the Raw events that Netflix put together, they usually have what I've come to as Rappers Row.

Speaker 1:
[16:16] That's like a Netflix staple?

Speaker 2:
[16:18] Yeah. They don't know it, but I know it. But anytime Netflix invites me out in particular, yeah, they'll have their celebrities, they'll have the folks in the Netflix TV shows, and they'll have some athletes there. But that corner right by the aisle is always where they put myself, Mano, Joe Budden, Fabulous, Jim Jones, Karen Sylvill, Gene of Views, DJ Head, Bootleg Kev, just all of the rap media, and Dave, like right in the middle. And he fit right in, and it was a great, great show. And it's the raw after media. What other Monday Night Raw would you want to be at than that one? So it was very newsworthy.

Speaker 1:
[17:08] The wonderful Je'Von Evans. You couldn't really see it on TV very well, but the wonderful Je'Von Evans, when he did his big jump outside and then jumped into the crowd, he jumped directly onto Kaz. Like he said, and it wasn't an accident. He saw us coming out and he like lit up and gave us a dap or whatever. And then as soon as he got outside the ring, it was just a beeline like his back on the Kaz's face.

Speaker 2:
[17:29] It was great.

Speaker 1:
[17:30] It was hilarious too because the funniest thing was we were there on Rappers Row, as you call it, and there was a lot of- Shout out to Sade from Netflix for creating Rappers Row. It wasn't like big meaty men level, but like there was a lot of physical heft there. There were big dudes, strong dudes, loved the place. And when Je'Von hit you, the entire section moved about four feet. Everybody was like, I was next, and I was like, what is my-

Speaker 2:
[17:59] He knew I was gonna catch him. I was like, yeah, come on, come on.

Speaker 1:
[18:02] Yeah, but I was like, I had a hand on him over your shoulder. I was like, I don't know what my obligation is here. I don't know how hard Je'Von is jumping. You're at a concert and somebody's stage diving or something, and you're just like, come on, man. But it's somebody you want to stage dive.

Speaker 3:
[18:18] I'm watching from the suite, right?

Speaker 1:
[18:20] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[18:20] I see it as it's happening. I was like, okay, he did interact with some other fans, and it was as if he saw his big brother, and he was safe when he jumped.

Speaker 2:
[18:36] That's so great.

Speaker 3:
[18:38] Yeah, I tried to record it, but I couldn't.

Speaker 2:
[18:41] Yeah, man, if anybody got the clips from there, please tag us in it.

Speaker 1:
[18:46] Yeah, but I mean, Je'Von is a real dude. I mean, I know that he's like, he's like that wiry frame, but he's put on a lot of mass since he's been in WWE, and he's not small or light. Like if you see him in person, he would be like your strongest friend. He's like a big dude, and he's tall as hell. So that was a lot of weight. He was counting on you for a lot there, Kaz. But it was a lot of fun. Thanks to, like you said, thanks to Netflix for coming up with those seats. But T-Mobile Arena, which I hadn't been to in I don't know how long, was just a delight. All of the arena staff in Las Vegas, wherever we were, obviously, your concierge has to be nice to you. But man, we got such nice treatment from everybody. I'm kind of mad now that they're building a new basketball arena in Vegas. It'll be the home of all these raws, I assume, going forward. Because T-Mobile is just the right size for a wrestling event. It's not too big. Whatever they do now, I'm sure it'll be bigger. And we're probably watching NXT at T-Mobile in the future or whatever.

Speaker 3:
[19:49] But baseball stadium out there.

Speaker 1:
[19:52] Oh yeah, they're building. I mean, that was the craziest thing about Vegas, is that they're building a baseball stadium and a basketball arena and five other things simultaneously within a block of your hotel. And you just don't know. Until you get into a cab and get on the street, you're like, wait, that's next door? Like it's crazy. But yeah, Vegas is going to be ready whenever the world decides to come back, I guess.

Speaker 2:
[20:17] That's a fact. It was a good time though, man.

Speaker 1:
[20:20] So yeah, I was tweeting some during Raw. Here's my big thing. And we're talking about fans not having the distinction. Somebody asked me, somebody very, very smart, asked me after the show, if you think we're going, if I thought we were going towards a world where wrestling events were like comedy clubs, and then you like take your phone on the way in. And I was like, no, it can't possibly happen because that's, again, what people are paying for. You know, they need their Instagram videos or life doesn't happen and whatever. But it was notable. I remember at one point, Kaz, you turned around to film an entrance and then I just turned around myself. Like every single other person besides me was filming the entrance. You know, and it was like a big deal and I get it. But it was like, or you could just get somebody else's video off of the Internet. Can we just assign one, like one audience electives that like just is the person that gets to film for all of us?

Speaker 2:
[21:18] I used to think just like that, Dave. I used to think just like that. It's like, why am I filming something that is on TV that is going to have a much better, crispier look than whatever I should have on my phone?

Speaker 1:
[21:28] Well, and also you're filming it instead of experiencing it.

Speaker 2:
[21:31] Yeah. Well, you know what? And then I'm just like, you know what? I like the engagements. I think everybody wants the engagement.

Speaker 1:
[21:39] I mean, whatever. Like if you're out on the street and like, you know, a car exploded, like everybody would pick up their phones. They wouldn't be like, I can catch this on Twitter. You know, like, you know, but like, you know, I get the reaction.

Speaker 2:
[21:51] I film everything on my phone for time capsule purposes.

Speaker 1:
[21:55] It is fun, dude. Dude, getting the iPhone back, it's like now I just get being inundated with memories, which I did my best to like block out for years. And it is cool. It is cool to like be with a friend and then all of a sudden the AI, you know, bot that rules our lives is like, hey, by the way, you guys hung out two years ago today. Here's a photo, you know, and you're like, ah.

Speaker 2:
[22:16] You know what, you know what, AI robot, you're not too bad.

Speaker 1:
[22:20] We love our AI overlords, that's for sure. This episode of The Masked Man Show brought to you by your AI overlords.

Speaker 2:
[22:26] Brought to you by Claud and Chad GPT.

Speaker 1:
[22:31] But yeah, I mean, that Raw after WrestleMania was ridiculously good. I don't know, I didn't rewatch it. I rewatched most of WrestleMania because being there live doesn't always do it justice, doesn't ever do it justice in terms of TV product. But I didn't watch Raw, except to find that little clip, because of course, Je'Von Evans is my younger son's favorite wrestler. And yeah, I mean, but being there, that Raw was incredible. Did they ever explain, didn't they announce Lesnar? Did they ever explain why he wasn't there? I didn't, did he explain that away?

Speaker 2:
[23:05] No, so I guess it was a tribute to him. Like they just showed like, hey.

Speaker 1:
[23:08] Oh, they showed his picture and they just had tribute to Brock Lesnar, but we just saw the picture.

Speaker 2:
[23:11] Yeah, I thought the same thing you thought. I was like, oh, is Brock gonna be here? Are we gonna like get towards that Gunther match or whatever? And like apparently not. I think he's really done.

Speaker 1:
[23:23] Nah.

Speaker 2:
[23:24] I think he's really done.

Speaker 1:
[23:25] I mean, first of all, you have to grade on the Brock curve, which is like, no one knows at all. No one knows what to expect period, right? So if he said I'm 100% done, there's a chance he'll come back. If he said I'm 100% coming back, there's a chance he never would. This kind of gives Brock this sort of visible power, on screen power to make his decision for himself. I think he's coming back. That would be my guess.

Speaker 2:
[23:52] I disagree, Dave. I think it's a wrap. I think he was on the fence, and then he felt it in that crowd. Like he felt like-

Speaker 1:
[24:01] Oh, like he decided in the moment.

Speaker 2:
[24:04] I think he was probably like 60, 30 walking in there, and then got to like 80, 20 by the time he was done. And it was just like, yeah, this feels like the right time. It's WrestleMania, dude, you know? And he does what he usually does. He called it in the ring, you know what I'm saying? He's like, yeah, I think it's a wrap here.

Speaker 1:
[24:22] And I mean, that would suit Brock as being a sort of force of nature, like existing separately from the pro wrestling universe. But yeah, it was regardless. What a great moment that was. I mean, I guess, yeah, the shocking thing would be like, would Brock as we imagine to know him, be able to create tears when it wasn't actually the last match? I think that's a legitimate question, legitimate point of view. But I feel like we're going to see him again. But who knows, this build to WrestleMania.

Speaker 2:
[25:00] We'll see how that SummerSlam build is, right?

Speaker 1:
[25:04] Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2:
[25:05] If they're selling tickets, I think Brock stays retired. If them joints ain't moving.

Speaker 1:
[25:10] Celebrity Battle Royale. The pain is coming, sir.

Speaker 2:
[25:15] The pain might be coming one last time.

Speaker 1:
[25:16] Well, the story today was that Jelly Roll and Pat McAfee, both just sort of, they're not going to be around anymore because both of them were like, get us out of here. Mostly from the point of view is like, we love and appreciate wrestling so much, we don't want to be part of this madness. Because they could tell that it was a bad idea. They knew it was a bad idea, they probably got talked into it. Bad idea meaning inserting them in the main event. There's a place for celebrities at wrestling. There always is. And both those guys love wrestling, so bring them around. But not in that position. But both of them were just like, dude, we're getting booed. This is not a good look for anybody. Let's just write us off in the first 30 seconds of the match or whatever it was. And then we're gonna dip for a while after McAfee's run-in. And that's what I would expect from them. I don't know Jelly Roll, I've met Pat, like they're obviously wrestling fans. And I mean, this is an end. All the wrestling fans you know.

Speaker 2:
[26:13] I met Pat years ago because Pat's a big, at the time, fan of this show. You know what I mean? And you know, if you're a fan of this show before the ESPN days, you're a real fan. You know what I mean? Like a real fan of wrestling. So I don't think anybody could accuse McAfee or Jelly Roll of being like these, what they're being called on online, like these TKO bloodsuckers that just want to like insert themselves and take attention away. It's like, no, I think they care just as much as anybody. And when they're told something, they probably want to do to the best of their ability without ruining the thing that they love, you know? So, yeah, I guess that's a story.

Speaker 1:
[26:53] Credit to McAfee. I mean, he could have audible on the, you know, in real time, but he did what I would probably suggest anybody else in his position do. That's like lean into the heel stick, you know? I mean, he was just going all the way in and healing it up.

Speaker 2:
[27:07] Not like he wasn't a good heel. You definitely got them cheering Cody again.

Speaker 1:
[27:12] That's, and that was probably the move, you know? I mean, that was probably why they did it. Also, because he needs to be the next Sylvester Sloan. But anyway, was there, Brian, what were the other big bits, big beats on Raw?

Speaker 3:
[27:28] Oh, uh, Saw Rooka?

Speaker 1:
[27:30] Oh yeah, did you see that bump she took at NXT?

Speaker 2:
[27:33] Oh yeah. That was dangerous.

Speaker 1:
[27:36] So Saw Rooka makes her main roster debut at Raw, then has to go finish off her Zarya feud on NXT, you know, like a crazy old bard match that ended with Zarya throwing her, like, off a balcony and threw two tables, except, whoops, she missed one of the tables with every part of her body. It was the Spike Dudley, yeah, it was like all of her body weight hit the first table, and so the second table, she just hit her neck and her head and it snapped her up, you know, bonk. If this were the NFL, you would say, I would presume she would be in the concussion protocol for a few weeks, whether or not she was showing any signs.

Speaker 2:
[28:11] Right to the blue tent.

Speaker 1:
[28:12] Yep. But it was a cool spot. You just hate it when it gets marred by your own worries or whatever. But yeah, she made her big debut. Ethan Page got introduced to the new member of the roster and then proceeded to beat our guy, Je'Von Evans, which was a good look for, I think, Ethan Page, I'm going to be very interested to watch his main roster career because it feels like it's got to be pretty seamless. You know, like, I don't know what the ceiling is on the guy, but the degree to which he's just sort of felt at, you know, at place in WWE is pretty incredible. I mean, Kaz, I think you said the other day, it's just like, how many of these, how many AEW stars, you know, like, have been underutilized when they came over to WWE, the insinuation being not many, if any. But I don't even know if that, I mean, if Adam Page's situation of like WWE giving him the right push or the right environment is just like, it's just a better fit, you know? It's just, he just suited better for WWE TV.

Speaker 2:
[29:19] And Ethan Page has gotten better too. Like, let's not take that away. You know, like, it's very easy to just be like, oh, well, he left AEW and now he's, you know, doing better than he's ever been. It's like, nah, he also has like a couple of years more experience in a different environment, different talents and more reps on TV. And he's just gotten better. You know what I'm saying? Like, Ethan Page was all right when, you know, I mean, I first started seeing him on TNA and AEW. Like, I thought he was all right. But now I think he's really good. And I think he's like such a he fits into that made midcard intercontinental title hunt like a glove. And they put him like right in there. You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 1:
[29:58] And they also introduced Rusev as Je'Von's next opponent in the same segment, which is basically like a return from another company. He's been gone for so long. I mean, gone on on main event for so long before WrestleMania. He had a great showing in the six man ladder match, and he's right back into the swing of things. I think that's the real metric for this week for for Raw, obviously, in Smackdown, too, is how many sort of like mulligans we get. You know, like all the people that were just have been like totally vanished in the past year. I feel like they're either going to come out of the out of the gates of WrestleMania with a big push, or like the street profits. That's the other big one. Or, you know, they're probably should be worried about their job security, not to make light of the situation. Street profits coming back was crazy. Crazy. I mean, that could have been the biggest moment of the month for us, you know, in any other way at another point in time. I'm so excited to see those guys back.

Speaker 2:
[31:03] And in a program that feels important, right?

Speaker 1:
[31:06] Yeah, right back to the time. Yeah, they're not just out there hosting RAW or something. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[31:09] Right. Right. Like being Seth Rollins' backup, you know what I mean? I don't know how far that's going to go, but I'm like semi interested in this, like Seth Rollins, Street Profits. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1:
[31:24] I would say to the, you know, I would say to the profits, you know, like, hold on and ride for as long as you can, don't get too comfortable because Seth's running buddies don't have a great track record, you know?

Speaker 2:
[31:35] That's true, that's true.

Speaker 1:
[31:37] You're just setting yourself up to get the stomp later on in the night or later on in your life at some point.

Speaker 2:
[31:42] But that seems like a great position for the Street Profits to be in though, because I really want to see what they can do.

Speaker 1:
[31:49] I do too, and I hope they actually get involved in the storyline, because so far, I think they've been involved in like zero storylines that involved personality.

Speaker 2:
[31:56] And be with Seth. Like I think being with Seth. Like I think they there's it's one of those unions where I don't think. I hope it's something they're thinking about, but it could definitely be something where like on paper, you don't think it makes sense. But like they could really yank each other's yank, you know what I mean? Like really like bounce off on another. They have more in common than they than they do. You know what I'm saying? Like Seth Rollins gets back to dressing all crazy and fancy and getting them fits off. Like I think them and the Street Profits can make for some low-key funny TV together, you know? As far as like fashion choices.

Speaker 1:
[32:35] The Profits made their run-in in like black slacks. So one wonders if they have a new sort of a new look.

Speaker 2:
[32:43] They have fun with them.

Speaker 1:
[32:45] Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2:
[32:47] I want to see the Street Profits in something like, tag titles, that's an easy thing to do. Like you can always find the tag team titles for them. I want to see them in something that matters. I want to see them in a story line that feels like it's important. And when you got Seth Rollins, when you got Seth Rollins around it, even if there's no titles involved, like you got Seth Heyman, like that's a story line. That's a top of the hour story line.

Speaker 1:
[33:15] Yeah, but I think, yeah, it has to be a story line that matters. And I think they have to be given time on, not on the mic so much, just on camera, backstage, whatever, to like be human beings. You know, I mean, there's still like, we love them, we've met them. By the way, I saw Dawkins on Sunday night, very, very, very briefly, you know, and Brian, I know you talked to him for a while, but I just said like, hey, you know, congratulations on the new kid. We can't wait to see you in the ring. And I said something and he was like, yeah, we'll be back, whatever. And I just kind of jokingly was like, hey, maybe tomorrow. And then he gave me like the meanest mug. And I guess it was because he thought that I was like, I knew something and I was like rubbing it in his face or whatever. But I was just like, then I walked away. I was like, I don't need Dawkins mad at me.

Speaker 2:
[34:04] It didn't even, it didn't even register to me when I saw him out there that like that, that raw after mania they were going to do.

Speaker 1:
[34:09] No, because it's been so long and because there's a lot of people out there that are just there for signings, whatever. I didn't see, I mean, Montez, I assume, and Bianca came in late because that was, that was, you know, both of those were big surprises. But maybe, I don't know, who knows. But good for them. Very excited to see them back. Very excited for the opportunity. And yes, I do hope they find some, whatever the magic middle is between Seth's giant, like, you know, ball gowns and the Street Profits traditional attire. I think there's something, if they found a matching outfit, it would be great. What, any other big notes from Raw? Ben Ballard is officially... Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[34:50] Where is your interest level on Punk vs. Cody, Dave?

Speaker 1:
[34:54] I mean, I think my interest level will be pretty high if they do it right, you know, for the match. And in the more abstract, I would say you have to do these matches when you can do them. You know, I mean, we talk about the age of the performers. It's like, yeah, let's run this while Punk's as young as he is.

Speaker 2:
[35:13] You know, because who knows, a year to WrestleMania will be too long.

Speaker 1:
[35:18] Well, I think that you get in a situation where like, you might have such alchemy that it's a match that you could do at SummerSlam and WrestleMania, you know, like you don't know. And it would be terrible to like, at the stage of both these guys' careers, of any age guys' careers, to not do something, to put a holding note on something and then it never happens. You know, we've seen that happen too many times. So I say just go for it. I say you could probably...

Speaker 2:
[35:42] Do a backlash, fog it.

Speaker 1:
[35:45] No, but I would say keep them involved in each other's storylines all the way through and then maybe they fight at SummerSlam and then you see where to go from there. But yeah, I mean, I would be interested in that for sure. They could, I mean, we just saw how great Roman and CM Punk were, given fairly little to work with in terms of like long-term build. Obviously, you can retroactually rewrite the past to be like, look at all the stuff that mattered. It's like, yeah, dude, it's like there's whatever, there's 40 dudes in a room, you're going to cross paths and it's going to, but they didn't get a lot. I think Punk and Cody could be incredible. We got to keep rolling though because we're going to run out of time before we even realize it. We should, before we wrap up Raw, we finally got Rio Ripley and EO Sky versus the Kabuki Warriors. That's the sort of mulligan match that I was talking about, right? We're gonna lean into that, because the Kabuki Warriors and EO Sky didn't get anything at WrestleMania. And, oh, Finn Balor beat JD in what was a very, very good match. Are we official? Is Finn Balor okay?

Speaker 2:
[37:04] Dave, I think once you saw Finn Balor back in his panty drawers and the vest and the jacket, I think he's okay, bro.

Speaker 1:
[37:12] I tweeted. I tweeted. I've never been so happy to see a guy in briefs. But it was a real moment.

Speaker 2:
[37:19] He had a haircut and everything.

Speaker 1:
[37:21] The haircut was crazy. I honestly had talked myself into believing that he had a cartoonishly high hairline that he was trying to cover up by always brushing it forward. The beard trim, he looks like 20 years younger. It's crazy. Hopefully, he'll be pushed like he's 20 years younger than he is. Give that man all the screen time. Got to talk about Dynamite last night. I feel like there's been three times on this show in the past six months where I've come on and said, holy shit, I'm not a big Darby guy, but that was my favorite Darby match. That was so good. It keeps going upwards and upwards. His match against Tommaso Ciampa last night might be the best match of the year. I mean, it was so freaking good. Everything about it, and I was not expecting anything particular. They're both good wrestlers. Ciampa is a very good wrestler. But Ciampa wrestled, I mean, I feel like if you're like, how good is Tommaso Ciampa? My mind immediately goes to like Gargano matches that were very, very good. Dude, I like this more than any of those Ciampa-Gargano matches. You know, like, he's obviously a good technician. I tweeted, I didn't know either of them had this in them. And I think that's pretty, I guess I'll explain. I mean, I didn't think, I didn't think Darby was that good. You can give all the credit in the world to Ciampa, but Darby held up his end. And frankly, I mean, I know Ciampa always has good matches, but I never really thought of him as a guy that carries other guys to greatness. You know, and that was a piece, I mean, that was just a thing of beauty, just an absolute thing of beauty. Darby, I mean, they both, Darby obviously retained Ciampa was busted open like nothing else. I'm sure there was a lot of like, let's outshine WrestleMania, locker room talk going on. And if that was the idea, they, in ring wise, they succeeded. I loved it.

Speaker 3:
[39:24] Did you watch it last night, Kaz?

Speaker 2:
[39:26] Yeah. I mean, Darby is the best, he's probably the best bump taker in wrestling, right? Like nobody falls more violently than Darby Allin. Like he falls violently, offensively and defensively.

Speaker 1:
[39:42] And it's not like, I guess that's what makes Darby unique. He's obviously a small dude compared to other wrestlers, but it's not just the monsters that find a way to throw him onto the steel steps upside down or whatever. It's like every match he's in, there's some contrivance by which he gets destroyed. And it's a lot, it is a fun gimmick. He also, I feel like had twice the moveset that he normally has. Last night, it was so good. Like he was just like pulling out moves that I wasn't expecting to see. That whole double stomp, that reverse double stomp that he did on Ciampa's chest was just disgusting and wonderful. And it was a really well told story the whole way through too. I mean, it just had me glued to the TV screen. So congratulations to them. I also tweeted that after the death writers abducted, abducted Will Osbray or carried him to the back, that the death writers had become what the Wyatt family should have been, sort of meeting in the middle thing there. Got a lot of people saying this is the craziest tweet in the history of time. I mean, just the real diehards were going in on a pretty forgettable tweet. But I just meant like, they actually, first of all, they were abducting people, which was briefly a Wyatt 6 thing and maybe should have always been a Wyatt 6 thing in too. But they seem like a real threat. Halloween masks are not scary. Flannel, definitely not scary with a Halloween mask. You guys know my opinion on flannel in wrestling. But they abducted him and everyone's like, where's he going to go? I was like, yeah, this is the level of, I don't want fear because you're from a haunted house. I want to be afraid because I think you might murder me, or whatever, and that's the vibe that the death riders can give off, even though they're functionally baby faces here. I don't know. I didn't mean that much by it. I'm just not scared of the Wyatt 6. I hope they figured out a way to do it. Imagine if they had run the Wyatt 6 gimmick more like the death riders. It's just a broad sense. I know they don't have the workers that the death riders have, but whatever. People do. Listen, we were at the Superstore. I understand the value of those Wyatt 6 masks to the bottom line. By the way, if you're an up and coming wrestler, if you're down there in Orlando or anywhere trying to get a shot, have a list of not just cool names that I want to use when I'm on the main roster, cool things they could sell at WWE World that are related to me. I feel like that's just such a huge component of the marketing push now. I just thought if the Wyatt 6 were like, sure, wear your masks or whatever, but in the middle of the ring is just like Bo Dallas with his greasy hair and beard looking like his face out looking like a scary person. That would be way more compelling than all these silly masks and gimmicks and stuff. Anyway.

Speaker 2:
[42:44] I don't know. The Wyatt 6 don't do it for me. I know it's a tribute.

Speaker 1:
[42:47] That's what I'm saying. This is the whole point. They've never done it. They've never recaptured the moment of their debut.

Speaker 2:
[42:58] They're just put in such a tough spot, man. They're a tribute act, essentially. They're a tribute to Bray Wyatt. So it almost feels rude to be like, this isn't doing it for me.

Speaker 1:
[43:10] It's like when Renegade had his WCW run, his fake Ultimate Warriors. Damn.

Speaker 2:
[43:14] I wasn't going to go that far.

Speaker 1:
[43:16] No, no. That's another example of a tribute act. That's all I'm saying.

Speaker 2:
[43:19] Yeah. I mean, shoot. If the Death Riders went to sleep and woke up with the Wyatt 6 level of aura or heat, they'd probably disband the Diss Riders, and then I mean the Death Riders. They're low key the best thing they got going on AEW.

Speaker 1:
[43:39] For sure. I don't even know if it's low key anymore. But yeah, I mean, listen, this doesn't need to be like a how to book the Wyatt 6 conversation. But they spent the past however many months with them in the tag. They had the tag titles for a while, and then it was all about them and the MFTs leading to WrestleMania. They didn't even have a WrestleMania match, and then all the rest of the SmackDown Tag Division, which used to be a freaking pearl of the company, is just lost in the aftermath of that. They shouldn't be in the Tag Division. I like giving them an opportunity, but it's like, dude, just abduct Will Ospreay. Come on. That's a great gimmick. I mean, that would be a great gimmick if they abducted Will Ospreay and brought him to WWE. I mean, that may be over like Rover forever. Anyway, we gotta get out of here, man. We have a very important interview coming up. Is there anything else you wanted to get in, though? I know I skipped lots of stuff. We'll be back Monday. We still got lots of pro wrestling to discuss.

Speaker 2:
[44:33] We still got plenty to talk about, but our guests are much more important, so let's jump to them.

Speaker 1:
[44:39] Brian, they lost our sign, so we're having everybody that you interviewed make a sign for themselves, too. So I don't know if you want to sign your name or make it look cool, whatever you want to do.

Speaker 4:
[44:48] I'm like the worst at actual art.

Speaker 1:
[44:50] Creativity, I know. Well, that's what we're going to get into.

Speaker 4:
[44:53] I can do the film thing, but drawing is my... Yeah. It's going to look bad.

Speaker 1:
[44:59] For those of you that don't know, this is Brian Storkel. He directed the Hulk Hogan documentary that is debuting next week.

Speaker 4:
[45:05] Yes, the 22nd.

Speaker 1:
[45:06] On Netflix.

Speaker 4:
[45:06] Yes, yes, sir. Real American, what's it called? It's called Hulk Hogan, Real American. Right. Yes.

Speaker 2:
[45:12] Which you are in, and I am not so proud.

Speaker 4:
[45:17] I just had to break the news. He had an incredible six and a half hour long interview. It wasn't that long, but he said some great things, and now we're going to have to send out some deleted scenes. We're going to start the release historical cut hashtag on Twitter to get Kaz back on the stream.

Speaker 2:
[45:35] If you ever want to put out a director's cut, you know what I mean?

Speaker 4:
[45:37] I mean, maybe we'll have to do that. Yeah, like the sequel, I don't know. We'll see.

Speaker 2:
[45:40] I'm not going to lie. I saw a couple of clips. I saw the trailer. I was like, pretty sure I'm not making the final cut.

Speaker 4:
[45:47] I'm bummed that you didn't make it because I really enjoyed your interview.

Speaker 2:
[45:51] Thank you, bro.

Speaker 4:
[45:52] Evidently, David won, though.

Speaker 2:
[45:54] Hey, listen.

Speaker 4:
[45:56] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[45:56] Dave is...

Speaker 1:
[45:57] Talking head is my lot in life.

Speaker 4:
[46:00] There you go.

Speaker 2:
[46:00] Anytime you get David Shoemaker talking about wrestling, the wrestling product is better for it.

Speaker 1:
[46:06] So thank you. So when you make these documentaries, obviously, like we've all kind of been involved in different places. You have to deal with a lot of notes. It's like making a movie or whatever else.

Speaker 4:
[46:16] Right.

Speaker 1:
[46:17] And a lot of the times the people that are giving those notes are not wrestling fans, necessarily. They don't. What do you think the hardest...

Speaker 4:
[46:23] Was there a point...

Speaker 1:
[46:24] Was there something about Hulk Hogan that was the hardest to convey to the people on the in the email chain? Was there something that people just didn't get?

Speaker 4:
[46:32] You know, I mean, because there was a mix on this one, right? We had notes from wrestling people and from from non wrestling people. So I think, I mean, I honestly think it was like a pretty good balance because you had, you know, the people are getting really technical on the WWE side and being like, this shot is like two months off on the chronology. Love those notes. And then you on the other side, you had, you know, Netflix notes were more like, hey, like we want to see more than wrestling. What's the human angle here? Which is what I was going for, too. So I think, like, honestly, it was pretty balanced with the with the notice process. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[47:04] Overall, I know you got to interview Hogan four times.

Speaker 4:
[47:07] Yes, we did. We did five days in the in the one interview chair.

Speaker 1:
[47:11] OK.

Speaker 4:
[47:11] Same outfit, like same location. We got, I think, 25 hours of footage from that interview alone. And then we went and did other stuff with him, like went to Upstate New York and traveled with him, went to through his like storage locker, worked out with him, like did a bunch of other stuff, too. So what was what was Hulk Hogan?

Speaker 1:
[47:29] I mean, this is I mean, he obviously passed away when you were still in the process of making the documentary.

Speaker 4:
[47:35] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[47:36] What was that? What was Hulk Hogan like in those in the kind of his last act?

Speaker 4:
[47:40] I felt like, and I didn't know him before this year. So I can't say like previous to this, but I did feel like he was pretty, pretty reflective and seemingly more so than in other interviews I'd seen. You know, he didn't necessarily know that, you know, the end of his life was nearing, but he would say things like, you know, oh, I'm just glad we're doing this now. We're doing this in another year or two. I don't know if we'd be doing it.

Speaker 1:
[48:04] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[48:04] You know, and things like that. And then he was, as he would think back and tell stories, he would pause and then, you know, actually, I don't know if it even after the interview, the first day he came back to me and he said, hey, I think I remember some of these things wrong and I wasn't maybe getting these things right and telling the truth on this. I don't know. I just maybe I've been telling it for so long that it started sounding like that.

Speaker 1:
[48:27] If he's being honest, that's an incredible amount of self-reflection for one of the greatest fabulous wrestlers.

Speaker 4:
[48:32] That was surprising to me and so we had a long phone conversation and started talking about the truth and then I said, well, how about tomorrow you come in, we'll start with that right away and we sat down and we just started talking about the truth. So I think he was willing to go there. He knew this was like the ultimate Hulk Hogan documentary and he wanted to open up about things that maybe he hadn't opened up about in the past. I'm not going to say you got 100% honesty or 100% of the details, but I think we got way more than I've seen in other things. Yeah, and just getting to see him with the fans and stuff. I think he'd come back to this place where at least in the time I was with him, he was so excited to be with these fans and just show them the Hulk Hogan character. He said, I don't know, he's like, it does something good for people. I don't know what it is, but I want to be that character to them. He would go out there and just, every single person he met, he would spend, look him in the eye, spend time just getting to know them. And we'd leave these events where he'd been at them all day and he'd get in the car and he'd still be thinking about those people. Being like, man, I wish I could have helped those kids in the back or, you know. One time I saw him sitting there, this guy came up in a wheelchair and he just went over to him. And there was tons of people in line and he'd been greeting people. And for whatever reason, that guy, he stood there and he's like, oh, I just knew I was gonna meet somebody special today. And he rubbed his back for like five minutes. Like, it wasn't like a quick like, hello. Like, he just kept spending time with this guy. And I saw that on numerous occasions. And it was a lot more than I've seen other, you know, celebrities and athletes do with their fans. He seemed to really care. And he seemed like he was like actually making this huge effort to kind of be that character again, the good guy. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[50:16] Outside of Hulk Hogan, who was the most revealing interview that you had for this documentary?

Speaker 4:
[50:20] Bret Hart was pretty cool.

Speaker 2:
[50:21] Okay.

Speaker 4:
[50:22] Yeah, I know you guys have talked with him, right?

Speaker 2:
[50:24] Yeah, he's been several times. He doesn't have that.

Speaker 4:
[50:25] He doesn't have that. No, he's got, he's, and the cool thing about him, like, he had all this like shit talk, but then he also had the surprisingly really positive things to say for quite a while up until, you know, that one moment.

Speaker 1:
[50:38] It affected him.

Speaker 4:
[50:39] We all know. Yeah, but he was like, he really respected him, looked up to him. One cool thing, Bret talked about how he, it's not in the series, but how he had painted this, you know, painting of all the different wrestlers for Hulk and had them all sign it on the back of it. And he'd given it to him as a gift. He told me about this and he showed me, he also showed me some drawings he did of Hulk, like later where he was trying to kind of make fun of him, I guess. But like he talked about this drawing, you know, he thought it was this great gift he gave to Hulk. I don't think he knew what happened with it. When I was back there after Hulk passed in the storage unit, we found that framed and Nick was like, this hung in our house for years. My dad loved it. Oh, really? And there it was. It was signed by all the wrestlers. It's like the coolest. It's like 50 of them on the front or something. I mean, I was like this really cool picture. I took a picture of it. Oh, that's awesome.

Speaker 1:
[51:30] And then Nick remembered it.

Speaker 4:
[51:32] Yeah, and I sent that to Brett. I texted him and he was like, oh wow, that actually like really means a lot. And they said, send my best condolences to Nick and the family. So, that was kind of a cool thing to bring together. Just knowing that, you know, I think to Brett, hopefully that meant something that like Hulk had actually hung on to this. Sure it did. And it meant something to him. And maybe Brett had just thought it was just this like thing he'd thrown away or something.

Speaker 1:
[51:58] So when I was, were you a wrestling fan before this?

Speaker 4:
[52:02] Not a big, I mean, I knew a little bit about it, but really didn't know a ton. I mean, Terry, Hulk had to teach me like the difference between a work and a shoot. Like I didn't know the basic stuff even so.

Speaker 1:
[52:14] Yeah, I mean, it's a pretty wild world to jump in. I mean, obviously we did the Vince Dogg, Chris, the director had, you know, didn't have any background. And I played that Hulk Hogan role for him a little bit, but in the instructional phase, not in any kind of, you know, muscular phase. But when I, I think I wrote about this, one of my most lasting Hogan memories, the first time I ever met him, I was at ESPN doing a podcast interview, but at the ESPN office, and they said, okay, he's coming in the front door right now, which to me means he's six minutes away, right?

Speaker 4:
[52:47] From the studio.

Speaker 1:
[52:48] So I ran to the bathroom. I was like, I'll get one more shot in before he's sitting in here. And then I came out of the stall and he was standing there, putting in his hair plugs, like in the mirror. And I stopped, froze, realized he didn't see me and just sort of snuck out. Because I was like, this is not how I want to meet him, right?

Speaker 4:
[53:05] No, in the bathroom.

Speaker 1:
[53:06] But there's something incredibly poignant about this superhero, like putting his cape on, basically. Yeah. Did you have any moments like that where you saw the difference between the main, like, is there a difference between Hulk Hogan and Terry Bollea at this point?

Speaker 4:
[53:19] I mean, even to what you're saying, before, you know, every interview, he'd go in the bathroom for like 20 minutes.

Speaker 1:
[53:26] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[53:26] And he had his little flat iron with him and he would be like straightening his hair and just getting that perfect look. And even when we went to an appearance at like a grocery store, he'd like go find the bathroom, he'd bring him in the back way, he'd get ready in there, get the full look going. And then he grew him in the mustache and everything. And even when he sat down, before we started rolling, he'd like get that all.

Speaker 1:
[53:47] Exactly.

Speaker 4:
[53:47] Yeah. And he's been doing that for years. And then one of the times where I saw him kind of turn it off and on the most was, we were in their home gym and Nick was there working out with him. And they got done and they're like, let's record a promo like for the karaoke night or whatever. So we've been filming for a bit. His energy is like medium level. And then Nick holds his phone up and he's like, all right, three, two, one. And then Hulk just turned it on and just went into the, let me tell you something, brother, and the whole thing. And we were filming it and hearing it too. But as soon as that ended, you just see his energy just drop.

Speaker 1:
[54:27] Go back down.

Speaker 4:
[54:28] It was this instant on and off switch. And he was just like, all right, I'll see you tomorrow. It was wild to watch him flip that switch.

Speaker 1:
[54:38] Kaz, do you have any question?

Speaker 2:
[54:39] Yeah, man. Hulk's a complicated dude. He's extremely popular, obviously. We're probably not here at WrestleMania without him. But telling the story on complicated figures is never an easy thing.

Speaker 4:
[54:50] No.

Speaker 2:
[54:51] What did you find the most difficult about telling the Hulk story, especially given it's his last interview?

Speaker 4:
[54:56] Yeah. I think it definitely was from the beginning, something where I didn't want to do it if we weren't going to be able to embrace those things and talk about the, you know, the issues. And I think that is tough because you do have to find the right balance in that. I think there was a point where we had our fourth episode was, like, really, really heavy and just felt like we were kind of shitting on him for the entire, like, hour and a half. And it actually felt a little depressing to watch.

Speaker 1:
[55:27] That's the last episode of the series, right?

Speaker 4:
[55:29] It starts, like, post, you know, as his wrestling career is winding down, you have a little bit at the top of it, you have a little bit of WrestleMania 19. Yeah. And then, but then it gets into, you know, his last match with Randy Orton, and then it goes to TNA and just, like, back surgeries. And we had the reality show in there. We have the divorce. We have, like, you know, and things just start going downhill. And once you hit, you know, all the other, you know, the scandal and then you get through, you get through, like, the gawker of it all. And you get into, like, you know, after that even, then you have, like, the RNC and you have them getting booed at Raw. And, like, all of that, it's hard to find the balance in that, where, you know, it's not, it wasn't an easy ride. There was also positive stuff that happened along the way in there. But you want to tell it in a truthful way and, you know, in a fair way. But, like, the first edits of that, I think, that we had were pretty depressing. And I wanted to find the, like, what is it we're actually trying to say here or get out of this? And I think we just kept exploring that along the way. It's the hardest thing in the world.

Speaker 1:
[56:38] I mean, I just wrote a book about Hulk Hogan and it's like, you have all of these, and when I was sitting for the interview, you have all of these different things. And Kaz, you and I have talked about this so much because it's like, if you're actually putting it all together, you're trying to look at the whole man, the whole career, the whole life, like whatever, you first thought is like, I'm gonna be really real about the stuff later in life. I've got the inward stuff. I'm gonna like, I can't let go. But then once you get in that real zone, you're also like, this was the most important person in my life until I was 12 years old. There's like all these big things. And the hardest part is to put a button on it, right? There's no neat way to end something like that. Even to end the podcast for a conversation about it. So like what is it? How does that? Was there more than one ending? Like besides just the depressing one that when you ended up with? Like how do you figure out what you're trying to say?

Speaker 4:
[57:29] That's the hardest part. I mean, I kind of found it along the way through interviews too. And I think like I think Kaz, you talked about your grandma and watching wrestling with her like and every Sunday night, I think, or something, whatever. It was on my Saturday night. Your dad too. Yeah. But you were saying how you had these memories with your grandma even. And like that was kind of big for me. It was you and then one other person, a fan that I interviewed in New York that was talking about how his dad would take him to these matches and he remembers his first, like he remembers Hulk Hogan because he never had much physical contact with his dad or his dad wasn't like really like a emotional, physical, caring guy. And his dad would lift him up on his shoulders at this, the first, I forget which match he went to, but his dad lifted him up on his shoulders and just held him to see Hulk. And he has this memory with his dad.

Speaker 1:
[58:22] Oh, and that's their moment.

Speaker 4:
[58:23] Because of Hulk. And I think you're talking about your grandma and these memories you had with her watching Hulk and watching wrestling. I like hearing that from you guys. And like that was a big impact on what I was trying to say. I think it was like, ultimately, I think I want people to allow themselves to have, like to give themselves permission to still have those memories and those feelings and those emotions and those positive things, even if they don't agree with who the man Terry Bollea became. I want them to have that still.

Speaker 2:
[58:58] Yeah, man, it's almost like two things could be true. You know what I mean? It's like WWF, Hulk Hogan, the first ever Survivor Series. That's like my literal first memory, is watching that paper in my dad's lap, watching Hulk Hogan and Macho Man burst on the screen, and I'm just seeing colors and muscles and yelling, and I'm like, what is this? And it just changed my entire life, you know what I'm saying? So it's like, it's that, but it's also acknowledging the disappointment in that, because you can't be disappointed by people you don't look up to at one point in your life. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, you have to acknowledge that or else it wouldn't mean nothing to you. Anybody could say that, man, I've been probably called the N word more times than I could ever count. When you hear that from somebody that you have tied in such an important life memory to, like, it is difficult. It's super difficult, but you have to acknowledge both. You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 1:
[59:51] Yeah, it's like, there's sort of two, like, low key two issues going on at the same time with the whole N word thing where it's like, you're feeling sort of Hogan or either one, you should be better than that, which is the same way you would feel about me if I got on one of those or like whatever. But then there's the second half, which is just like, you spent a lifetime convincing us you're a character who is automatically above that. You're sort of breaking kayfabe by being human in a certain way. Did you feel, talking to Hogan or talking to other wrestlers, that they understood that level of sort of the responsibility that comes with that level of fame, like that's a real part of the issue?

Speaker 4:
[60:30] I think, I mean, you're asking whether or not he, I feel like he understood the responsibility. I think it was, I mean, I think he did. I think it was a big weight on his shoulders even to the end of like, and in a positive way. I think he knew that he needed to be that character and be this person. But I also think like, he says in the film too, he's like the man, Terry Bollea wasn't as good as the character. But, you know, over time, the character made him want to be a better man. And he, and that was in the early days that he, that he was talking about. But I think even towards the end, he had regrets about things. And I think he kind of seemed to at one point, distance himself, you know, and yes, he got kicked out of the WWE world. But even after that, I don't think he was really embracing the fans and coming back as much until the last couple years. And then he just, he kind of started, I mean, he said he wanted to embrace the red and yellow again. He wanted to get out there and stop sitting on his couch and actually realize that, again, this character meant something to people and he wanted to be that to them. And I think he had a time where he wasn't doing that.

Speaker 1:
[61:41] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[61:41] So I don't have that kind of answer.

Speaker 1:
[61:43] No, that does. Absolutely.

Speaker 4:
[61:44] It's complicated. And to your other question, your article that you wrote when he passed also was really helpful. Just a lot of really great stuff in there that kind of, you know, the complicated legacy and just, it was interesting to read that and I think that was like why I wanted to interview you for the project too, because I knew you weren't going to, I knew you were a fan and loved him as a kid and had all these good feelings and then you also had understood that there's a lot more complicated things. And so it was important to get people like you into the project and you Kaz.

Speaker 2:
[62:21] Unfortunately, I mean, we didn't make a final cut.

Speaker 4:
[62:26] But we needed, you can't just have some, you can't just have people all saying, you know, if people are all pro-Hogan or all anti-Hogan, like that never makes for an interesting, in any topic, that never makes for that interesting of an interview to me. Like I want people that can see the nuance and can see, like, I don't view any of this as black or white or, you know, like good or evil. Like, it's like, we need to be able to see the nuance and actually, you know, see that he's a complicated human. And I think the series explores his human side in hopefully a way that will help people connect to him and view him differently than they view him, even whichever camp they're in, so. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[63:05] Is it wild to think that you might sort of have the final word on Hulk Hogan?

Speaker 4:
[63:09] I mean, your book's coming out too.

Speaker 1:
[63:10] Well, no, I'm just saying that, like, there's probably a documentary form. Like, is there going to be another Hogan doc for a decade?

Speaker 4:
[63:16] Yeah, I'm guessing there'll probably be some specifics about a certain, you know, WrestleMania, you know, 18 or, you know, whatever kind of thing. But there's not necessarily going to be a complete thing. Yeah. So this, I feel like this is this is it. And the fact that he was participating and wanting to, you know, kind of do whatever we needed for it is also the thing that I think sets it apart. So, yeah, pretty great.

Speaker 1:
[63:39] I know we gotta let you get out of here Kaz, you have any more?

Speaker 4:
[63:41] You good?

Speaker 2:
[63:41] No, I'm all wrestled.

Speaker 1:
[63:42] This is your first WrestleMania?

Speaker 4:
[63:44] It is. It is.

Speaker 1:
[63:45] Are you hanging around for the whole weekend?

Speaker 4:
[63:47] I'm not as of now. You might get convinced. If somebody says, hey, here's some tickets and like, you know.

Speaker 1:
[63:53] You got the whole Netflix PR team over here.

Speaker 4:
[63:56] I haven't been invited to the suite yet. You know, there might be a special.

Speaker 1:
[63:59] Here, I'll sneak in with you. I've never been to the Netflix suite either.

Speaker 4:
[64:03] If Ted, you know, Ted Sarandos texts me, you know, then maybe I'll head over. But I don't think that's going to happen.

Speaker 1:
[64:10] Well, we'll see what we can do. We'll get you to hang around.

Speaker 4:
[64:12] All right.

Speaker 1:
[64:13] Thank you so much for doing this, guys.

Speaker 4:
[64:14] Appreciate it.

Speaker 1:
[64:15] Thanks to Bryan Storkel for coming on the show. Check out that documentary, of course, on Netflix. When you get the opportunity, I'm sure most of you have already checked it out. We're going to talk about it some next week. Thanks to Kaz. You want to get your plugs in? Sorry.

Speaker 2:
[64:28] Yeah, man. Brand new episode of 7pm in Brooklyn is out right now with Wale and Will Packer. Special two pack episode and, of course, new post games talking about everything in the NBA playoffs. You can catch me on your Hot 97 every day. That's my word on Mornings with Mero. 6am to 10am, Monday through Friday. hot97youtube.com says Hot9797.1 on the FM dials. And yeah, that's it.

Speaker 1:
[64:56] Well, thanks, Kaz. Thanks to our producer, Brian H. Waters. Thanks to our EP, Ben Cruz. Also, just as a total aside, since I was going through my tweets, thanks to GCW, indie wrestlers Effie and Ali Katch, who I tweet. I shouted out on Twitter this week. Great match.

Speaker 2:
[65:12] What's up, my guy? Good dude.

Speaker 1:
[65:16] You know, we were at that Spring Break Show and we should probably have talked more about it. It was so, so good. But, you know, of course, the Brody King Janella match got a lot of attention, as did Sandman's last match against The Invisible Man. Both were incredible experiences. But sandwich in the middle there was Effie and Ali Katch, who have been mainstays for so long and have so much history together. And they put on a fucking show, man. I mean, that was a that was a great match. Anyway, I thank everybody. Thank you guys for listening. Finn's okay. So we're done here. I'll just go with the PSA thing. Be a fan, not a mark. We'll see you back here next week, humanoids. Peace.