transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] Coming up, we got Tom Haberstroh going through every single NBA playoff series, and then at the end of the show, I go through my round one mock draft, covering every single pick in the first round. Today's episode of The Kevin O'Connor Show is presented by Game Time. With the NBA back in full swing, nothing's better than being in the stands, but getting last minute tickets to games can be a bit of a pain. The Game Time app makes it easy though for fans, because in just a few taps, you can get your tickets on time and at the best price. What I love, fees are always included. I first noticed that when I was mapping out my concert calendar for the remainder of the season, because I'm thinking about seeing this band called The Last Dinner Party. I noticed when I was going to purchase tickets, that it was so nice to see that there was no hidden fees at the end when deciding whether to buy the tickets or not. Finally, transparency. With the Game Time guarantee, you know the tickets you're going to get are 100 percent authentic. I go to most NBA games these days using my credentials, but when I decide to go with friends or take a date, I'll be using the Game Time app to snag them. So take the guesswork out of buying NBA tickets with Game Time. Download the Game Time app, create an account and use code KOC for $20 off your first purchase. Terms do apply. Again, create an account and redeem your code KOC for $20 off. Download the Game Time app today. Welcome back to The Kevin O'Connor Show. We get a good one today. Tom Haberstroh, how are you doing?

Speaker 2:
[01:33] I'm doing great, Kev. How's it going?

Speaker 1:
[01:36] I'm doing great, man. It's been a fun week of the NBA playoffs. We got a bunch of 1-1 series, especially with the top seeds, and then we have some 2-0s. We're gonna start off with Wednesday night's games. Pistons tied it up in the series, 1-1 against the Magic. Pistons won that one, 98-83, behind what was a ferocious third quarter. They're tied 46-46 at half time, and then by the 4-34 mark in the middle of the third quarter, they're up 76-49. The Pistons, they started out that quarter, Tom. It was a defense that I thought sparked the run at first. It was offense. Tobias Harris hit a tough shot. Cade Cunningham hit a tough pull up. And of course, throughout, they did just stomp out everything that Orlando tried to do offensively and turned a lot of defense into offense on the other end of the floor for that. Just incredible run to get their first home win since the 2000s for the Pistons. What did you see from Detroit in that third quarter run? And is there anything that you saw during the run that makes you think that something clicked for the Pistons? They're back, they knocked the rust off, and this is the way it could be for the remainder of the series.

Speaker 2:
[02:53] Yeah, they turned their defense way up in that third quarter for six turnovers on the Orlando side to just five field goals for Orlando. And so when you're able to get those turnovers like you see there and get out in the open court for Detroit, things are just so much easier than having to go in the half court against that size of Orlando. So any time you can get those stops, create offense the other way, those half court offense points per possession numbers, they go out the window when you get those transition opportunities. So I think a lot of it is just having that defensive stand and being able to turn over that Orlando Magic offense, got everything they wanted in game one. I think that's the way they got to do it, is use that defense to turn it into offense because they don't have great shooting out there. So when things slow down in the half court, I don't think that Detroit has the upper hand. And it's almost like Orlando is like a worse version of the Pistons offense because they don't have real great shooting either. And so as much as they can get in that open court, get transition, use those young legs, they'll be better off for it, Kev.

Speaker 1:
[04:00] Yeah, I agree with you there. I mean, they have to turn defense into offense, have to get out in the open floor. And that said though, I mean, Cade was magnificent in the game. I mean, he had a nasty in and out dribble in the second half of that game to create space against the Magic. And he looked a lot more comfortable against that Magic physicality. Physicality, I thought, in his drives to the rim. They got Jalen Durin going a little bit more. He didn't have his best game. They still need to figure him out against that physical Orlando frontline. Ultimately, I mean, I don't feel like a lot changes for me when it comes to the series after the conversation that I had with Tim Fon Monday. What we talked about after the Magic went up 1-0 in the series. I do think Orlando still, aside from that 30-3 run, which matters, I'm not putting that aside. They still played pretty well in the first and second and fourth quarters of the game. So I still think we're not done here in the series. There's still a chance this goes beyond just a five-game series. I don't think Orlando, I don't think Detroit's going to win the next three of this series. I still think we're going to go a little bit further deeper into the series than I initially expected. I thought we were going to have a sweep here, but Orlando just looks more like the team people thought we were going to see early in the season. Franz Wagner healthy, Ben Carrell playing a bit better, Suggs out there as well. There's just, it feels more like the Orlando team that we anticipated here, Tom. Is there any reason to believe otherwise and that the Pistons are just going to stomp them out the rest of the way and that this is done in five?

Speaker 2:
[05:34] Well, with the way that Kate Cunningham looked in game two, I mean, what you look, I'm just glad that I didn't have this vote after the fact, because I would have put Kate Cunningham ahead of Jalen Duren in the, in the all NBA second and third teams. We had that discussion last week. And if I had seen these two games and gone Bill Simmons style and said, you know what? After what I've seen, I'm going to switch Kate Cunningham ahead of Jalen Duren on my ballot, that would have been in play because of how much better Kate Cunningham has looked and Jalen Duren just looks overwhelmed out there. And the usage rate is way down against Wendell Carter Jr. in the front line of Orlando. And Kate Cunningham has shown up big time in this, in this series. It's something that I'm keeping an eye on because, you know, Duren didn't have a great postseason last year and the regular season performance that we saw when he was holding everything together, both ends of the floor, when Kate Cunningham was out down the stretch in the season, he hasn't shown up. He just hasn't. They haven't gotten the ball to him. He hasn't been able to assert himself. And the physicality that we would assume that Duren would have the upper hand there, he simply hasn't been able to assert himself out there for the Pistons. And I do think that, man, Paolo Banquero, he made me eat my words at the end of that play-in tournament, just the way that he had played and looked completely different player in that first game and then at the end of the play-in tournament. But again, the pumpkins of that Orlando Magic often showed up once again in that third quarter. And that was the that was the difference in this series so far.

Speaker 1:
[07:11] Yeah, they kind of got smacked around and just never found themselves again in that third quarter. And now we're tied up one to one there heading into game three. Also, last night, the Thunder went up 2-0 on the Phoenix Suns 120 to 107. There's two key story lines from this series. A, Jalen Williams left in the second half of the hamstring injury. We'll talk about that in a second. And B, the fouling. I mean, we saw in the first quarter, first half of that game, Chet Holmgren going for an offensive rebound, flops to the floor when getting boxed out by Osai Iguodaro. And then in the second half of the game, Chet Holmgren has a one-foot advantage over Colin Gillespie, draws a foul, little pump fake. It's just ugly, disgusting basketball. And then the one that went viral was the technical foul on Devin Booker, in which he kind of like the ball was lost out of bounds and he tried to save it. And he flipped it back in and he got called for attack. And Booker said after the game, and you can see Caruso do it, Caruso signals to the referee that he should be called for a technical. And Booker's like, and all my ears in the league, I have never complained about the referees publicly. And he's like, but James did a horrible job tonight officiating this game. And Booker is 100% right. There's a couple of issues with it here. There's the cultural rot aspect of the game. When you see Chet Holmgren, not just SGA, but Chet and all these other guys flopping their way to whistles. That cannot be rewarded in playoff basketball. The NBA needs to fix that. But then there's just the pure lack of judgment by the officials in the moments where they call Booker for a tech. For what? Nobody could figure it out. I think only Alex Caruso had an idea of what the technical was for. He's the one who called for it, not the referee. I don't know. The announcers didn't get it. Nobody understood it. We still don't have an answer of exactly why it was called. It's just things like that or in the Boston Sixers game where Jalen Brown just posterized the Sixers defender and then he got called for a technical foul for flexing. Like, what are we doing here? This is supposed to be entertainment. There's just so many things that happen. In particular, though, this OKC Team Tom that doesn't need this. OKC should be a team where people tune in. They're like, Oh, my God, SGA, this amazing score, the best score of this generation. Oh, my God, this incredible defense. Instead, today, what is it all about? And understandably so. It's this flopping and tricking the referees. And it's it was disgusting last night. I'm not someone who complains about this a lot when it comes to the thunder, as much as other people do. But I thought last night, game two was as bad as it's been that I can remember. On the OKC side of things with the flopping and how it was rewarded by the officials. If you're a Suns fan, Tom, you feel like you have no chance when it's like that.

Speaker 2:
[10:14] Yeah. Well, Kev, did you see Devin Booker also alluded to the WWE? If this continues in the press conference, that is a bright line in the NBA that if you're going to allege that the NBA is essentially like WWE, a fixed outcome based on the officiating, he's going to get fined for that. He said, if this continues, then people will start thinking of the NBA as WWE. So for Devin Booker to come out and say that, there had to have been a lot that would push him over the edge. There was. You're talking about an absurd technical foul call from Alex Caruso. Oh, I'm sorry, JB DeRosa there in that moment where he's saving the ball from going out of bounds. It's not like he threw the ball deliberately at Jalen Williams. Jalen Williams in the moment wasn't like, yo, what was that all about? He didn't even react to the initial hit with the ball because Devin Booker was falling out of bounds. And so when you have Devin Booker after the game, calling for the it's bad for the integrity of the sport and people are going to start viewing this as a WWE if they're not held responsible, I get it. And the second thing here beyond the technical is when he got called for the unnatural shooting motion, when Alex Caruso was underneath them and Devin Booker went up for a shot to have not just that called, but the Chet Holmgren play that you just put on, that we just saw the highlight of, the Chet Holmgren thing was way more egregious as an unnatural shooting play in which he didn't get called for the foul there. But later on you have Devin Booker getting called for that. And Alex Caruso just baiting him and throwing his head back to try to accentuate the contact. That was not unnatural at all. And Doris Burke was 100% correct in calling that out and saying, how is that an unnatural shooting motion on Devin Booker? When we see this time and time again from SGA, from Chet Holmgren, from a lot of players in the league and for them to call Devin Booker out on that, it just seemed to me that something was up in this game. I don't know why the officials were so anti the Phoenix Suns in these moments. And like this play right here, it's not a natural shooting motion. He's turning to the side. He's not even looking at the basket. All of this.

Speaker 1:
[12:38] He was looking at the referee's sideline. He's not even looking at the basket.

Speaker 2:
[12:43] And you're 100% correct here, Kev, in saying that this distracts from Oklahoma City's dominance in pure basketball, like the pure basketball side of this and the way that they play defense and score offensively. It shouldn't be bogged down in the officiating, but I'm with you. The officials lost control of this game and it led to Devin Booker calling out the officials after the game. And Devin Booker, I mean Dylan Brooks after the game, saying, I don't know why the officials are not held responsible and the accountability should be held in press conference where reporters are allowed to ask referees for clarification, for reasons why they called it a certain way. And I wrote this in the New Year's column that I do every year. The New Year's reconciliation or things that you need to do for the New Year, the new... Adam Silver should have these New Year's resolutions, not reconciliation. This is the Catholic in me. The New Year's resolution column that I wrote for Yahoo Sports, I said one of the things that we should implement is press conferences for referees. And I'm not saying that we should have them for every single game. But if the referees, if it becomes such a storyline, I think in the playoffs, it makes sense for referees to be held accountable for their calls. And I also think for an opportunity to educate fans, whether it's the gather step, whether it's goal-tending, whether it's fouls, unnatural shooting motions, blocks and charges. So many times in the NBA, we see fans, players just call out the officials and we don't get the official side of things. The pool report, I'm sorry, the pool report is not satisfactory when we don't have the referees answering back and forth amongst multiple reporters. I just think it's something that the NBA should be doing in the playoffs, if not in the regular season, at least in the playoffs, because Dylan Brooks, he's going to try to use the officials to even out this series in which they've been blasted in this series. I do think this is a way, a lever that they're going to pull to get officials to side with them, whether it's deliberate or not, in games three and four. But I do think he's right. The officials should be held accountable through press conferences and a great opportunity for the officials to educate the players.

Speaker 1:
[15:13] No, not press conferences. That's the wrong approach. We don't need more officials with the camera in their faces. I don't need Bill Kennedy making a show with a microphone in his face more than he does.

Speaker 2:
[15:23] They're not all Bill Kennedy though.

Speaker 1:
[15:25] No, I know. I'm just saying as the example where it's glorified, people hate the officials. I'm talking people as in fans, and yet we talk sometimes, oh, he's so funny, great personality. I don't want to know who these officials are. You're better off not knowing who they are. What we need is the NBA to hold them accountable. Period. End of story. The public aspect, the public needs to hold the NBA accountable, and then they hold the officials accountable. That's the way I look at it, Tom. I don't need to hear from these referees coming up with excuses. They're not going to play these games. They get fired. They're done. Goodbye. You need to push forward some rules here and some accountability in that, hey, we're not rewarding this flopping. This is a priority for us, and if you screw it up, you're not officiating these games. You're not on these national TV games. You're not officiating the NBA finals. I know, of course, they do condense it down as the series goes on, but it needs to be even more strict, in my opinion. Ultimately, though, Tom, I think some of these officials, their egos are out of this world, and it has always been a thing. Well, they love the cameras and their faces. And I just think for the NBA, you're going to give them more screen time. I don't want to hear from them. I don't want to see them. That's just my perspective. I know there's different ways of approaching the punishment aspect. I don't think public accountability is going to change anything. It's not like they haven't been criticized for decades. This is purely brought of a system that has allowed flopping to go on for so long, that has allowed some of this piss poor officiating to go on for so long. It is brought at the foundation that needs to be resolved more than anything else. And I think that's where like when I for years, anytime I talk to my friends who are more casual NBA fans and like these are probably the people who like watch the show live or listen to this show on audio platforms, they're the more likely the more hardcore NBA fans. But when I talk to like my casual friends that tune in for the playoffs or watch an occasional national TV game for as long as I can remember when they when I asked them, why don't you watch basketball more regularly? The number one issue has always been the flopping and the whistles. Number two has always been stars don't play. I don't know what I'm going to get when I tune into games. And nobody has ever mentioned tanking and the NBA right now, the primary focus for improving the game seems to be tanking. The biggest issue in the NBA is flopping and the whistles. This is the number one issue in the league when it comes to turning casuals into hardcore fans. It's games like last night with the Thunder and the Suns where we should be talking about how brilliant the OKC Thunder are. And instead, it is understandably so about this garbage that we saw in the game last night, both from the players taking advantage of this rotted foundation, but also just the piss poor performance from the officials themselves. And that to me comes from a lack of accountability from Adam Silver in the league office above anything else.

Speaker 2:
[18:37] I totally hear you on that. And there is a lot of uncertainty among fans of how the referees are held accountable. And they do get rated and graded for every postseason series or every postseason round. So you do see the referees get whittled down as we progress into the postseason. The NBA believes that is how they hold accountability. They get paid more the deeper they go into the postseason, right? So there is a monetary, a financial incentive for these officials to get the calls right, to have good performance out on the floor, because if they don't, they're not going to get those extra game checks from progressing into the deeper rounds of the postseason. The finals referees, the ones that are selected for the finals, the small group of finals referees are monetarily compensated more than the officials that only earn the first round. So there is an incentive and accountability in that sense. But what you hear from officials and coaches and players throughout the years is, how do they make those assignments? What is the actual grading system? Can we see that grading system? What are the methods of transparency to ensure that this isn't just hand-picking finals referees or certain referees based on whether they're the favorites of the administration or whatnot. They want to see more transparency on how they hold these officials accountable. The second thing that I want to point out here is, Kevin, what happened to the flopping rule, the flopping violation? They can call that. There's a lever that the officials can do out on the floor to eradicate flopping. We don't do it anymore. They don't call that flopping violation even though we see it time and time again. I do think the referees and the NBA have a huge win opportunity here, is to actually call flopping when they see it. I understand why Devin Booker is really upset here because it's not just the technical for trying to save the ball from out of bounds. It's that he has to pay $2,000. It's a little known fact. If fans don't realize this, is every time a player is assessed the technical foul, it's a $2,000 fine. Players do not like that. They like their money. And I do think that fans should realize that it's not just the technical, but players, in effect, officials are taking $2,000 of money out of the players' pockets. And I know fans are not going to sympathize with guys making $50 million a year.

Speaker 1:
[21:09] It's not a big deal.

Speaker 2:
[21:10] It's a slap on the wrist. But for officials, I can understand why they don't really want to call the technical or don't want to take money out of players' pockets. But there is a financial aspect to technicals, which is why it bothers players so much beyond just the fact that it changes the game.

Speaker 1:
[21:28] Sure. I mean, look, like King Des said in the chat, King Des seems like a Thunder fan. And he said, the Raptors are just trying to control the game. They gave a weak tech to both Dort and Brooks for nothing earlier in the game. Those are the things I had to wish. Let them play. Like when Jalen Brown dunks on the Sixers and he flexes and the crowd goes crazy, what are we calling your technical floor in these situations? Let them play. Let them be tough. Let them be aggressive. Let them push each other around a little bit. Let's let this competition between grown men be a competition between grown men. Let's move on to the Lakers. They're up 2-0 on the Houston Rockets despite no Luka Dodger, despite no Austin Reeves. All indications are that Luka is not close right now. Austin Reeves seems even closer than Luka to returning right now. My number one thought from these first two games in the series, Tom, boy, Emile Odoka is being out coached by JJ Reddick. He in game two, KD comes back. He guards LeBron James. He is does not look anywhere near ready to move with LeBron James. So many easy dunks and lobs by LeBron and by the Lakers based off LeBron's passes. Then he decides to send two at LeBron. Even though LeBron couldn't score in the game, that opened up even more open opportunities for the Lakers. Then Emay's got no idea what he's doing on offense. Reid Shepherd plays 36 minutes in game one, 11 minutes in game two, and Kevin Durant has the ball in his hands a lot in this game. Nine turnovers for Kevin Durant in game two, and at least seven of those were definitely his fault. Sloppy handles got stripped by Marcus Smart, really just inaccurate passes. A few of them, you watch the plays, oh, he should have caught that. Say, no, no, no, these are inaccurate passes. This is the quarterback throwing behind the receiver and the receiver getting smacked over the middle. That's what this was with Kevin Durant, with some of these sloppy decisions. And then it took Emei way too long, I thought, considering the difficulties Durant was having to have somebody else initiate the offense. Obviously, Reid Shepherd was plastered to the bench. I gave the ball to Amen Thompson. Took too long to get there. I just feel like JJ has coached circles around Emei Odoka in this series. And the Lakers have executed at a simply higher level as well. But I just, look, I've been critical of Emei, Tom. I mean, the Rockets ended the season with some wins. They'll seem very fake when you're down 2-0 against the Lakers without Wooka and Austin Reeves. Just hard to fathom. But it's really not that hard to fathom when you consider Emei Udoka. He's just not that good of a coach, and he has no idea how to coach offense.

Speaker 2:
[24:17] How is it possible that Emei Udoka does not have a solve for KD getting doubled? It looks like it was the first time that that's happened. And like, Reid Shepherd is an antidote to those double teams because he's an excellent three-point shooter and a guy who can play make for others. And he was glued to the bench, free Reid, okay? We need more Reid Shepherd, not less, when they can't score above 100 points. This is an absolute opportunity for them.

Speaker 1:
[24:45] Emei is at fault there, but also KD. There is the play in the first half where Reid Shepherd is kind of like a three on two on the break. And Reid Shepherd took a three instead of dribbling into the paint to try to draw a foul or get a layup at the rim. And KD kind of snapped at him after he took and missed the three-pointer. So it's like, also, KD, hey, you get a guy who makes 45% of his threes and you need his spacing. Maybe support that guy and be more of a leader. So I think on KD too with the Reid Shepherd stuff.

Speaker 2:
[25:15] Yeah, it's clear that these guys don't play for each other. I don't think they like each other in the sense of like, when you look at what happened with Alpern Changun and KD at the All-Star break and the burner accounts where it just seems like everything around this team feels just like it, it stinks, it stinks. And Eme Odoka against this shorthanded Lakers team, they should be up 2-0 in this series. They absolutely should be. LeBron James has gone old school, just backing Almen Thompson down in the paint, Tarii Eason and just controlling everything offensively. And they haven't figured out a counter. They can't double, they're not rotating. This is LeBron James right now, and we did the big number on this yesterday. LeBron has 16 post-ups in this series so far, which is more than any other team in the NBA. You combine Jokic, Carl Anthony Towns, and Alper and Shane Goon. He has more post-ups than any of those guys combined. He has more post-ups than four NBA teams combined in this post-season. And it's like Emey has no counter. He's got no way to respond to an old school basketball trick that LeBron's like, yeah, I'm absolutely gonna back down this guy and control the defense in ways that they don't know how to respond. And yet on the other side, KD is getting doubled every time down the floor and it looks like it's the first time he's played basketball. And that's the difference here is that LeBron at this age has been able to control everything like he is a master chess player. And everything that I see on the other side is that the Houston Rockets are playing checkers. They have no idea how to thwart the Lakers defense or their attacks. And man, JJ Reddick, as you said, has been running circles around Eme Udoka. And it just seems like this Houston Rockets team, they're not playing for each other. It seems there's a disconnect with the coach and the players. And if you look at the way the KD has played against those double teams, it is very clear who has the upper hand in this series, and it's not Eme Udoka.

Speaker 1:
[27:28] Tom, you say the chest checkers thing made me just think about, isn't that the story of LeBron and Durant and their career? I mean, LeBron is the orchestrator, one of the highest IQ players in the history of the sport. He has dragged some pretty OK rosters deep into the playoffs. Meanwhile, Kevin Durant, he's more of the checkers. He's not the creator. He's not the playmaker. He is the guy who only won when he was on the Golden State Warriors at the highest of levels and has been unable to lead any team to success on his own. It is really the story of those two in their entire careers and still is to this day, even in the series where LeBron James is up 2-0 in the series, even though he's without Luka Dondridge and Austin Reeves because he's winning with his mind. Whereas Kevin Durant has nine turnovers. Nine turnovers.

Speaker 2:
[28:25] He signed up for this.

Speaker 1:
[28:27] He did. He wanted it. That's the other thing.

Speaker 2:
[28:29] He wanted the situation. And yes, he didn't sign up for Fred Van Vliet and Steven Adams going down, but we can also agree that he signed up for a team that has Ahmaud Thompson and Alperen Shangoon and Reed Shepard on it. And it looks like he already wants to bail. Like this is a situation that he is not thriving in. And it looks like just by us and the National Conversation, for sure, we're pinning this on Eme Odoka, the coach that he wanted to play for and Kevin Durant. So this is another situation that it seems like he wants to hit the erase button real fast.

Speaker 1:
[29:00] Real quick, Tom, I just got to point out the three-man lineup of Kevin Durant, Alper and Shen Goon, and Reed Shepard played four minutes in game two. They won those minutes 14 to four. So hey, Eme Odoka, if you're looking for something to do in game three, maybe play a little bit more of Reed Shepard in the game with Alper and Shen Goon and Kevin Durant. And ultimately, Tom, I think for Houston, there are adjustments to be made. And I do think this series is not over yet. Can you really expect Luke Canard to go for 27 like he did in game one or 23 in game two? Maybe it keeps happening. Maybe this is the new Luke Canard, and JJ Reddick has unlocked him. Can you really expect Marcus Smart to go off for 25 like he did in game two? Maybe not. Maybe he will. Marcus Smart does have these hot stretches. It certainly could be possible. We're about to see two weeks straight of Marcus Smart making 50% of his threes. It's happened before. But the fact is that I don't think this series is quite over. I still think Houston has a chance here, even though everything you said is true. They seem like a team not playing for themselves. When you juxtapose that against the Lakers, a team that certainly does seem like they're playing together, the way they move without the ball, the motion of their offense, the way they're playing a LeBron, LeBron James as the focal point, that playmaking hub. It is beautiful basketball. And it's so cool to see the Lakers playing this way when it's dramatically different than Luka Ball, where Luka has the ball in his hands all the time and it works. I'm not downplaying that, but it's just cool to see these guys go up 2-0 in the series playing in the opposite style with LeBron James as the centerpiece of that, with all these different guys getting touches, the ball getting sprayed around. And ultimately I really do think that is a big time credit to JJ Reddick for getting these guys to play that way, getting these guys to accept those roles, and then getting them to play defense the way they are. It's been very impressive to see the Lakers go up 2-0 in the Rockets, considering the circumstances that they're facing. And I think that's a lot different than the Cavaliers being up 2-0 on the Raptors, which is kind of a no-surprise type of series between Cleveland and Toronto right now. Are there any signs that the Raptors can make a series out of this, Tom?

Speaker 2:
[31:30] I don't think so, but Cleveland, as much as I want to say that Cleveland has been awesome, I'm just reminded that last year they blew out the Miami Heat in such a way that it was one of the most lopsided first round series we've ever seen. And so I put forth these numbers with that caveat, knowing that last year was very much the same against the Heat. The starting five for the Cleveland Cavaliers with Donovan Mitchell, with James Harden, 49 to 31 plus 18 against the Toronto Raptors in this series. Their offensive rating is 136 against the Raptors, one of the best defenses in the regular season. And they've torched them, absolutely torched them. And so when you look at why did they get James Harden and why did they decide Darius Garland wasn't going to be a good fit for them in postseason. So far, so good on that. But I would say Toronto, they figure out a way to get more offense and more ability to get something out of Brandon Ingram, Scotty Barnes and their star players. Cause at this point, it just seems like there's just too much firepower on the Cav side. They look great, but they also look great in the first round last year too, Kev.

Speaker 1:
[32:49] Yeah, they did. I mean, that's going to be a tougher road ahead for Cleveland. They definitely got the easiest matchup, I'd say, of the first round of the Eastern Conference. And I think for the Toronto side of things, this game was played on April 20th, 420. Brendan Ingram certainly looked like he was celebrating in that game. I mean, he was three for 15 in game two with five turnovers. And like some of the turnovers he had, Ingram, like he kicked the ball off his own feet early in the game. And the shots he was taking midair, some of the passes where it's like, how did you not see that guy? Like there's two defenders there. What are you doing? And I just I'm without words with what without with what Ingram did. Like part of me give credit to like Merrill and Wade for defending him really tough on some possessions. But boy, some of the thing was just self-imposed mistakes. Like I said, he looks like he was celebrating something else.

Speaker 2:
[33:53] I think he's one of those guys that I wonder if he's a postseason player or just a regular season player. And this is this series has not confirmed for me that he's the opposite. Like I want to say that Brandon Ingram is a guy that because he's so tall and can play above the defense and he's got that mid-range game going that he's a guy that can get you buckets when you need it. But that's never been the case with Brandon Ingram. He doesn't have a deep postseason profile. But I worry that the inefficiency and the lack of playmaking for Brandon Ingram is going to plague him for the rest of his career in the playoffs. This guy, it's a great story that he's come back from the DVT and the fact that he came back from the ankle injury quote unquote last year. And he had a great regular season all-star campaign. But, yeah, Game 2 was not the high point of his career. And I'll just say that he's got to show me a lot more. I'm not saying.

Speaker 1:
[34:58] Maybe it was the high point of his career. Very possible, the way in which he performed in that one. And we'll be right back after this break. Today's episode of The Kevin O'Connor Show is presented by Game Time. With the NBA back in full swing, nothing's better than being in the stands. But getting last minute tickets to games can be a bit of a pain. The Game Time app makes it easy, though, for fans because in just a few taps, you can get your tickets on time and at the best price. And what I love, fees are always included. I first noticed that when I was mapping out my concert calendar for the remainder of this season because I'm thinking about seeing this band called The Last Dinner Party. And I noticed when I was going to purchase tickets that it was so nice to see that there was no hidden fees at the end when deciding whether to buy the tickets or not. Finally, transparency. And with the Game Time guarantee, you know the tickets you're going to get are 100% authentic. I go to most NBA games these days using my credentials, but when I decide to go with friends or take a date, I'll be using the Game Time app to snag them. Take the guesswork out of buying NBA tickets with Game Time. Download the Game Time app, create an account and use code KOC for $20 off your first purchase. Terms do apply. Again, create an account and redeem your code KOC for $20 off. Download the Game Time app today. Yeah, so we got one-one series in the two sevens and the three sixes on both sides, the east and the west. Let's start out in the western conference here, Tom. The Blazers, they tie it up. One-to-one, Victor Wembanyama suffers a concussion in the game, and obviously this was horrible. I mean, his face just smacked the ground so hard after Drew Holliday pulled the chair out from under him, and it was really a smart defensive play by Drew Holliday. This happened in game one as well, where Wembay kind of followed awkwardly after Drew Holliday pulled the chair out. So clearly, this was something that the Blazers have scouted that Wembay can get out of control. Obviously, never could have expected it to turn into a concussion. But I'll tell you what, Tom, we'll see when Wembay comes back. He was at the Kelden Johnson's Sixth Man of the Year ceremony on Wednesday, and I guess he was shot around a little bit. We'll see if he actually plays game three, but his absence was felt in that game too. The Spurs shot only 29 percent from three. They made seven of 24 of their shots from three, and the lack of success is notable there, but so is the lack of volume because 24 of their 86 shots were taken from three-point range. So that means 28 percent of their total shots came from three. That's the lowest of the season since opening night. 21 percent of their shots came from mid-range. That's the most of this season since that opener as well. So the Blazers defense has turned the Spurs into something that they don't want to be with their half-court offense and that is most apparent when you look at Castle, Harper and Fox. With Wembay on the floor, Castle, Harper and Fox have taken 39 percent of their shots at the rim, only six percent of their shots from mid-range. Castle, Harper and Fox without Wembay have taken 21 percent of their shots at the rim to 26 percent of their shots from mid-range. So their shot diet has dramatically changed as it did all season long with Wembay off the floor and the Blazers, credit to them with their defense, turning this into a Spurs offense that isn't playing anything like the basketball that they want to play. And I think Portland deserves a lot of credit there, but also hey, this is the way it's been all year for the Spurs when it comes to Castle, Harper and Fox with their shot diet without Wembay out there.

Speaker 2:
[39:02] Yeah. And when you talk about what the Blazers like to do is they like to crash the boards, get second chance opportunities and finish with Donovan Kling and Rob Williams, the third. These guys are, they clean the glass as good as anybody in the league. And without Victor Wembanyama out there, they're having a tough time keeping them off the boards. And that's one thing that the Blazers have done all season. We've been harping on it during the broadcasts is that Tiago Splitter very much believes in crashing the boards and making sure that Donovan Kling with his size advantage on most teams, he can be able to get those second chance opportunities, kick out for threes or finish on put backs. And Rob Williams is so underrated and his health is on his side this season. And it's been great to see. I thought he deserved the Defensive Player of the Year Award over Marcus Smart a few years ago with the Boston Celtics that year. And I think for people who did not realize that Rob is on this team and are just tuning in now, you see his presence on the floor on both ends. He's so much better than he was a couple of years ago. It's just he's not been able to play 30 minutes a night because of his injuries. But when he's out there, man, it is so awesome to watch. Now he has a three-point shot where the top nine guys for the Blazers all have made a three in this series. And that's by design. They want to play five out, create more driving lanes for Scoot Henderson, for Drew Holliday, for Denny Avdia. And it's worked to perfection in the first two games, splitting the series in San Antonio. And this is a different story than we saw in the regular season where in three games against the Spurs, the Blazers lost the season series two to one, and none of those games, Wemby play. And so this is a new Blazers story here, that they had been able to capitalize on Wemby's absence, and Scoot Henderson, man, what a story. Him coming out in his playoff debut, scoring 49 points, which is, I think, the third most in the Blazers history for their first two games, in their playoffs, playoff career. I mean, the guy, he leads all players this postseason in transition points. I should say, in this playoffs, in the two games that he's played, he leads all players in points off of transition. And this is notable because when the Blazers get stops, they're a totally different team. Get out in transition, Scoot Henderson pulling up in the mid-range, even when he's got Victor Wembanyama lurking behind him, he's been able to finish, get to the free throw line, and a lot of these times, it is in the open court and not against a set defense. And that's when Scoot is at its best. There was one play in game one where he poked the ball away from Victor Wembanyama. And then Stefan Kassel was waiting for him in a foot race to the rim on the other side. And Scoot blasted him, got way past him in the foot race. And that's just Scoot Henderson's game. When he's able to get downhill, use his speed and athleticism to beat you down the floor, he is so special. And in this game, in this series, the mid-range game is going. The three-point shot is going. I can't say enough good things about Scoot Henderson. In the last 20 games of the regular season, he shot 41% from downtown. And it's continued here in the postseason where you're seeing him be a completely different player than he was in his first two years. And it's great to see after a torn hamstring, he's rewriting the Scoot Henderson story in the playoffs, in his playoff debut. This is, it's great to see. I mean, I of course am biased because I'm on the broadcast and I've seen the lows from Scoot Henderson in the first couple of years and the injuries. It is great to see if you're an NBA fan, this guy loves hooping. He loves playing for his teammates and you can see it. The spirit that he plays with is awesome.

Speaker 1:
[42:52] He works so hard. I mean, I interviewed him pre-draft. I think I first interviewed him the first time when he was with the G League Ignite during the week he faced Victor Wembanyama. This was what, three and a half years ago at this point. He is just such a good kid and he wants to be such a good player. Scoot, after the really rough start, both with his own performance, I think with Scoot when you watch those highlights of him in Game 2 dropping 31 points, what my main takeaway with Scoot is, well, it's two, it's two things. A, it's the pace in which he's playing with. I thought early in his career, he got by with his elite athleticism at the high school level and then that turned into good athleticism at the NBA level and he wasn't quite able to adjust getting past guys exploding at the rim, but he is playing now with a pace and a maturity that apparent out there on the floor when you watch him compared to even when things were good with the G League, with the Ignite and then definitely when things were rough early in his career with the Blazers. But at this point, he's playing a mature game and the shot is just better. We've seen the flashes of this even going back to last year, Tom, you know, this would scoot. He improved a little bit as a shooter and this year started out rough after coming back from the hamstring injury. But he looks like a guy who finally has translated his 80 plus percent touch from the free throw line, the touch we've long seen from him in the paint to finally figuring out from mid-range and from three-point range. And this is why in the NBA drafts, historically free throw percentage has always been a stronger indication of future three-point success than three-point percentage is at the college or G League level. And with Scoot Henderson, I think he is currently serving as a pretty good example of that. I'm not sure he's going to score 25 plus points every game in this series, Tom. But it feels like this is just more signs that Scoot Henderson is an NBA player. He is a real, legitimate NBA player and that we are still at the beginning here. And this kid is only going to continue getting better for the Blazers in the many, many years to come. And also, I mean, hey, next year he gets to play with Damian Lillard or maybe, how about next week, Tom? I mean, we saw the Blazers posted a video of Damian Lillard shooting around. Is there any chance that anything you can share? What was that? Why did the Blazers post that? Out of the blue, Damian Lillard in the gym. What can you share, Tom? This is off the record, by the way. Nobody's watching. It's just you and me, Tom.

Speaker 2:
[45:26] Nobody's watching.

Speaker 1:
[45:27] Just kidding.

Speaker 2:
[45:28] I tweeted that out too. And my response was just the ball rotation is mesmerizing. That's all I can say. I have no inside knowledge of whether Damian Lillard's coming back or not. I don't know anything, but I will say, I love watching that guy shoot. I could watch it for hours. And this earlier this season, he posted, I think he shot like 90 percent on 1000 three-pointers in the gym. And it's just, there's something crazy like that. It's, I think it was just a reminder to folks how, how amazing he's just an artist when it comes to three-point shooting. And again, yeah, the, this is what I'm talking about. He has this weird thing where he shoots, where his fingertips are not touching the ball. And there's a gap between his fingertips and the ball when he's released, or like right before his release, the ball kind of like rocks in his palm, in ways that is kind of unorthodox. But everything about it, it just is, I'll just say it, it's basketball porn. Watching David Lillard shoot the ball, the basketball. It's so good. It's so good. But whether he plays or not, I've got no insight. And I'll just say that Scoot Henderson, the way that he's playing, I don't think they need Damian Lillard back in this series. Of course, he's Damian Lillard, a Hall of Famer, NBA 75 guy. But with the way that they've been performing so far in this series, I just, man, it's been really cool to watch Scoot Henderson. I do want to, if I can, I want to talk about this Wemby thing because I have a story coming out later today on Yahoo Sports, talking to Chris Nowinski, who's the CEO and co-founder of the Concussion and CTE Foundation. And I asked him about the Wemby injury. And he said, one thing that caught my eye about this or as I'm interviewing him, he said, the worry also is not just that he suffers another concussion if he comes back too early. And two concussions in the same week is dramatically worse if you have a second concussion in a week, which is what it would be if he returned Friday, if he returns in time for that game on Friday, which is outside of the NBA's protocols of a 48-hour gap between the injury and when he can play in full participation with a battery of tests, cognitive tests, neurological tests to see if he's all the way there. But one thing that I think people need to realize is, we see with concussions, the return to play in the next 90 days. There's been a study, a published study, an academic paper that showed in the NBA 90 days after that concussion, even after you've returned and been cleared to play, you see a statistically significant uptick in lower extremity, muscular, skeletal injuries. So meaning when you are coming back from a concussion, there is a higher increased risk of an ankle turn or a calf strain or a knee injury. These sort of things are popping up more historically for players who are coming back after a concussion compared to when they do not have a concussion. And so it's not just the real brain injury, re-injury concern for Wembay if he does have another concussion here upon his return or another hit to the head. It's also for a guy who missed a quarter of the season with calf, ankle and knee issues. You do wonder whether the Spurs are also going to consider this in their return to play protocol. It's for a guy that's 7'4 and moves like a guard, having him not have his full mental faculties can also lead to lower leg injuries where he might not have the spatial awareness of having a guy that did not suffer a concussion. I hope and I know that the Spurs are going to make sure that he passed this test in order to have his return to play here. But I do think that people need to understand that there's multiple things that you look at when it comes to a brain injury like this and a concussion that Chris Nowinski in the article, he mentions this and it's backed by academic studies that for NBA players, it's the lower leg injuries that maybe they don't see someone underneath them going up for a layup or they do a spin move and they go into a player and that contact might not have been there if he was not concussed earlier in the season. It's things like that, Kev, that I just want people to be aware of as we approach Friday's game that if the Spurs hold them out in that game, there's lots of things that they have to check and lots of things that they're considering from a medical standpoint, a health and safety standpoint and it's not just about the brain injury or re-injury. It's also about the rest of his body that they're trying to protect.

Speaker 1:
[50:16] That's an incredibly, incredibly smart point. I think when people think about concussions and the return to play, it's often about just simply getting another concussion, not about how coming back from that concussion affects how quickly you're able to just read the floor, your spatial awareness and what that can lead to with further potential injuries. I think for the Spurs, that does need to be something on their mind with him. I mean, ultimately, with the Spurs, I personally feel the Spurs need Wembay to win this series. I think the Blazers have such a great defense, number three in defensive rating since the All-Star break. Their offense, Danny did not have a great game too despite no Wembay. Danny could come out and be ferocious, 45 plus points in game three. He's going to get to the rim. The Blazers are now going to have a new game playing against the Wembay-less Spurs, assuming Wembay doesn't play Friday. I think the Blazers will win this series if Wembay doesn't play. However, it does seem like things are pointing towards Wembay at some point returning. I cannot imagine that he's going to lay down and let the Spurs doctors be super conservative here. They might have the final say, of course, but Wembay is going to push back a lot and say, I'm fine. I'm good and all that. The Spurs need to be careful, but I also think the Spurs need him to win the series. Is my feeling with the Portland Trail Blazers, with the way in which they can perform, the way they can exploit the Spurs, everything I talked about earlier with the lack of three-point shooting success, the lack of getting to the basket for Castle, Harper and Fox, the uptick in mid-range shot attempts. It's everything that comes from Wembay. This is in part why I voted him MVP. It's in part why I think they lost game two. It's why I'm worried about them moving forward in the series with Wembay. But this is a very tough situation here, Tom, for the Spurs. They got to be careful here. If I'm the Spurs, I go play game three without Wembay. If I win that, I play game four without Wembay. If I'm down two-one, I would think about playing Wembay Sunday, assuming everything is okay for game four, because I can't risk going down three-one. I couldn't risk it, assuming he's at least good enough to play.

Speaker 2:
[52:40] A little backstory here on the history of concussions in the NBA playoffs. Remember, in 2015, Kevin Love, he was held out of game three in the NBA Finals against the Warriors. After he took, I think it was an elbow to the back of the head from Harrison Barnes. Richard Jefferson and Kevin Love on ESPN, they had this back and forth a couple of years ago for the Miami Dolphins quarterback, there was a lot of discussion about concussions in the NFL, and they had Kevin Love on to talk about what happened in game three when David Griffin, then the president of basketball operations for the Cavs in route to that championship. Apparently, in the back room, Kevin Love was so mad that David Griffin relayed the news that they're holding him out for game three, that he was screaming, sprinting down the tunnel and yelling at Griff because he was so mad that they were going to hold him out of game three. He said in this interview on ESPN, he said, I wasn't thinking beyond five inches from my face. I didn't realize the long-term effects about what they were trying to do to protect me. In that moment, he was heated. He's like, the Cavs haven't won a championship in 52 years. It's a pivotal game three. We're down 0-2. Absolutely, I'm playing game three. The team stepped up and said, hey, we got to have your best interests here long-term for a six-time, five-time All-Star like Kevin Love. Do you remember what happened in game seven? Kevin Love had the greatest, one of the great iconic defensive stands that we have seen, one of the great defensive stops on Stephen Curry later in that series. And now, Kevin Love understands. They were absolutely right. I'm glad they were holding me out in game three, in which the Cavs did win without them. And I think the Spurs, right? The Spurs, this isn't just any other player. This is Victor Wembanyama. And so, he's going to try to come back. We know he's going to try to come back. But this is why they have cognitive tests and medical professionals in line to step in front of the player and say, hey, look, it's best for you and best for the team and best for your long-term health that we hold you out of this game. And I don't know anything about the San Antonio Spurs, what's going on right now. But Shams Turani did report that late Wednesday night, Victor Wembanyama did perform cardio exercises and he wants to travel and he's hopeful that he's going to travel to Portland for game three. But there are examples of superstar players, star players being held out for concussions against their will. And it was best for the player. And now Kevin Love is saying, absolutely, Griff and the Cavaliers did what's best for us.

Speaker 1:
[55:24] And I get it.

Speaker 2:
[55:25] It's easier to say that after they won the championship. But I think we can all agree, the Spurs are going to have Wemby's best interests here, long-term health, forget basketball, long-term health in mind as they make this decision going forward. And it's not just going to be a basketball decision.

Speaker 1:
[55:40] The Wolves and Nuggets are also tied up one to one. Let's talk about that series because my main thought with this one right here is we've seen Rudy Gobert cause some issues for Jokic, but also Jokic's three ball is gone right now. We're seeing the Wolves play a very deep drop against him, preventing penetration. This happened also in game one, letting Jokic take open threes. He's three or 14 from three in the series. He had two air balls in game two. And going back to when he returned from his injury in late January, he's shooting only 31% from three on 155 attempts. He was at 44% prior in the year, 42% last year. And I think this is affecting him. The lack of a shot is leading to some sloppy decisions. In addition to the fact that he knows Go Bears defended him really well inside. And he's passing out of situations, making uncharacteristic sloppy plays. There was one three pointer he took in game two, where you can see him. I think it was the end of the second quarter, end of the half. And like he took the three and missed it. He just kind of, salt, just looked disappointed in himself. And Jokic is just not playing like Jokic. And I come away from these first two games. It's one to one. We'll see how this continues. I think despite Gobert's success in the paint defending Jokic so far, if his three's not fallen and there's not a lot of evidence that it's going to start falling, considering it's been since January that it hasn't, I'd like to see them post up Jokic a little bit more. During the season, we saw Jokic log 9.8 post ups per 100 plays. That's down to 6.4 in games one and two. And despite Gobert's success, whether it's Gobert or you can get him on a switch against McDaniels or, or Nasrid or whoever it is, getting Jokic inside to me might have to be something we see happen with the way the Wolves are defending him when he pops for threes. And then also when he rolls and he just seems to be looking for some passes because he's a little bit hesitant with Gobert out there lurking.

Speaker 2:
[57:54] I'm not buying it. I think they're going to blow him out in game three. I think, I think, I think Jokic's shot, he's too good, man. I think he's too good. And maybe his back or his knee or whatever it is is bothering him. And we don't know perfect information about his health right now. But I just, Kev, I just feel like the Denver Nuggets are unsustainably shooting poorly right now. You look at Jokic and you cited his numbers about how good he is historically and what he's been in this series. The Airballs are concerning because no one has better touch than that guy. And the fact that he's missing so poorly is maybe an indication that something else is going on. But I'll throw these numbers at you too, is that Jokic, while he isn't leading the league in assists in this postseason, like he did in the regular season, his potential assists are way up there. Like he is creating shots for teammates in ways that I would excuse his poor shot making if his teammates were hitting shots. Well, they're not. Off of Jokic's passes in this postseason so far in the two games, they're shooting 10 of 30 from downtown, 33% from downtown off of Jokic passes. That was 40% in the regular season. In this series, Jamal Murray, Tim Hardaway Jr. and Aaron Gordon are shooting five of 19 on three set up by Jokic. They're way better than that. And we shouldn't just put too much in a two game sample. And especially when you look at the fact that on twos, on two pointers set up by Nikola Jokic, this team is shooting 37% from the floor off of Jokic passes in the regular season. That was 52%. So the threes are going from 40% to 33% and the twos are going from 52% to 37% off of Jokic passes. So as much as I want to say that Rudy Gobert is in his head or forcing him to kind of play differently and maybe they need to get more out of Jokic, I also think a lot of those things would be covered up if the teammates started hitting their shots. And Aaron Gordon, Christian Brown, Tim Hardaway Jr. These are guys that if they're, Cam Johnson, if they're playing up to their abilities, I'm not really worried about Jokic air bowling a couple of threes.

Speaker 1:
[60:10] Look, the fact is with some of those potential assists, Jokic should be taking the shot. I mean, he had that weird little wrap around pass when he had the floater and the paint, he had the kick out to Christian Brown late in the game where Christian Brown drove and missed the free throws. Jokic has to take some of these shots too. Instead of kicking out to these guys that the Wolves are happy, he's kicking it out too. And even with Cam Johnson, Cam Johnson, I've talked about him a handful of times in the podcast this year, including when he had his horrific 0-4-6 game in what, early March, I think it was, against the Wolves. And he's like, I got to fix myself. I got to get myself out of this. And he did. He went from shooting like crap off of Yokech passes to shooting the hell out of it the remainder of the season. But it's very possible that Cam Johnson just isn't a playoff player. He talked about the mental aspect. It's very possible that he's in his own head as well. The fact he's 3-4-13 from 3 so far in the series. We've seen him talk about this openly before. So I've got my concerns there. I've got my concerns about the fact there's no Peyton Watson for Denver. He is so important to what they do defensively as a help side defender, as an on-ball guy and as a shooter too. He's become such a knockdown guy and he can do a little bit off the dribble as well. It feels like Denver is really missing Peyton Watson. Then also, I mean, look, Jaden McDaniels, the bad defenders quote. He's not wrong in some regards. It's a little bit of a hot take, a little bit of extreme and say every defender is bad. But Jokic had some really bad possessions in the second half of that game against Minnesota where it's just Ole defense. Here you go. Go to the basket. You're free to have a layup. Jokic needs to be better defensively. And this is in part why I don't think he should have been at the MVP this year and he won't be the MVP this year. He was not the same defensively this season defending pick and rolls, defending in space as he was the last in a handful of years or in his MVP seasons. And this is apparent, I'd say, through two games against the Minnesota Timberwolves with the way in which he's impacting guys coming at him inside the paint. And it's not all his fault. Point of attack defense needs to be better as well. But I do wonder after that McDaniel's quote, if they're all bad defenders and he lists them by first name and last name, Nicole Jokic, Jamal Murray, Hardaway, KM Johnson, Aaron Gortz is hilarious. It's just deadpan. He was so serious the whole time. I wonder if that is going to be some extra motivation for Denver in game three tonight. Would this match up on the road against Minnesota and you see them put out their best defensive effort? Or is it going to be more Minnesota getting what they want?

Speaker 2:
[63:05] I love the playoffs, man.

Speaker 1:
[63:06] I love the playoffs. It's so good. Isn't it the best? It's so good.

Speaker 2:
[63:09] It's so great, man. Even the Dylan Brooks and the Devin Booker comments after the game. It's so much theater and drama. I love the comments here from Jaden McDanos. It adds so much spice here. I want to see what Nikola Jokic, angry, calling him out for his defense looks like. Is it just going to be cut? That dump that he had on Rudy Gobert late in the game. I want to see what that looks like defensively. Are we going to get Dikembe Mutombo, Denver Nuggets, Nikola Jokic out there? I'd love to see that.

Speaker 1:
[63:44] Impossible. It's not possible. I love Jokic. That's not possible. A couple other things from this game. Anthony Edwards, I thought was much better in game too. Jason Tim from my podcast on Monday ripped him apart with his off-ball defense. I thought he was way better off-ball in this game. He had a couple of blocks in the paint. One is a help defender. Then he had a chase down block on the break. Just great effort, I thought, from great attentiveness. Off-ball also had nine rebounds as well. I don't think that should go overlooked. And then Julius Randall, not good in game one. And then he was just a bulldozer in game two, gutting through everybody in the paint. If you get that version of Julius Randall and Anthony Edwards locked in playing really hard on defense. Look, man, these Denver, Minnesota series, they have been tremendous in the past. And I hope, I hope it's shaping out to be up to be that time, even though you do feel like Denver is going to smoke them in game three. I don't see it happening. I think this series is going to go deep. It's going to go seven. Wouldn't shock me if we see Minnesota go up to one tonight at home against the Denver Nuggets.

Speaker 2:
[64:57] Yeah, they Denver can't feel great about splitting the first two games here. And I think you're pointing out something that when Jada Mcdano's calls out them for having all these bad defenders, he put Aaron Gordon in there. And I think Aaron Gordon playing on one leg or not healthy Aaron Gordon is not the same thing as fully healthy Aaron Gordon. And without Peyton Watson, it looks a lot more apparent that Aaron Gordon is such like healthy Aaron Gordon playing at a high level is such a swing factor in this series. And he's been coming up empty a lot of the time. And I feel like he will take it an umbrage when he's included in that. But his body might not be right. And they need Peyton Watson and Aaron Gordon, two of those guys in order to be at the top of their game and win a championship this season. Right now they have half of one of those guys. And so this is um, I think the, I think the shop making and the unsustainable shooting from not just Jokic but his counterparts, I think that reverses in game three. But if they don't get this game three, this could get ugly real fast for the Denver Nuggets. And I know the championship core that they have there, it's hard to bet against them. But Minnesota, they've also been to the Western Conference Finals routinely here, and don't underestimate the heart of a Western Conference semifinal champion, Anthony Edwards. So watch out for that dude in game three.

Speaker 1:
[66:31] Real quick thought here, I kind of glossed past it earlier in the conversation when we talked about the Thunder and Sons. Jalen Williams exited the game last night with a hamstring injury. And I think if you're looking at the rest of the Western Conference right now, you have the Lakers up 2-0, Wolves Nuggets, one of those teams could potentially not face OKC until the Western Conference Finals. It's hard to go back to back. And OKC without Jalen Williams, who was tremendous in game one and in game two, his three-point shot looks back. That's one of the things I talked about in my X-Factor's article in video and talked about it on the podcast here. I was worried about JDub with his three-pointer. He just wasn't shooting as many of them as he was last year, and he wasn't making as many of them either. He looked back, and then he suffers a hamstring issue again. That to me is a scary sign for the thunder here, and I think it opens the door a little bit more for Denver or Minnesota or even the Lakers with Luca and Austin Reeves to get past them and represent the Western Conference in the NBA Finals. That's just like, we'll see, but hamstring injuries are tough, Tom. They're really tough, and that's a scary thing that happened this week for the thunder.

Speaker 2:
[67:52] 100 percent, and aggravating a hamstring injury, an existing issue, is a multiplier effect of concern, that if it's just one time this season that he was dealing with a bum hamstring, okay, that's not an issue. But with all that scar tissue built into there, and then it still is able to bark again here in the postseason, that's a huge level of concern for the Oklahoma City Thunder. And a big reason why I picked the Spurs to win it all this postseason is because of the injury variance that we see in today's NBA. A big reason why we see seven different title winners in the last seven years is because a lot of these defending champs are suffering injuries, or they're dealing with a lot more of the wear and tear of going deep into the postseason that other teams simply do not have. And so you're seeing Jalen Williams calling out of the game, getting this foul call so he can exit the game. Huge level of concern. And it's also a big reason why I feel so bad for Spurs fans right now and Victor Wembanyama is because this could easily be a Western Conference team's year because of the injuries and all the Spurs. The Thunder had a top three number of player games lost due to injury in the NBA this season. Despite all those injuries, they were able to get to the number one seed in the Western Conference. But we've seen it time and time again that these miles add up and you're seeing with Jalen Williams that the aggravation of this hamstring injury means that they're going to be one less horse as JJ Reddick called it with Luca Montridge and Austin Reeves. One less horse for them to ride going forward for the Thunder. So the door is definitely cracked up open a lot more for these other Western Conference teams. And I'm glad you brought it back because this is one of those things that is different about today's NBA is that the injury variance for the star players creates a lot more uncertainty and parity in the league.

Speaker 1:
[69:49] 100% true there. You mentioned how it could be a Western Conference teams year. Let's move to the East. We have the Knicks and Hawks tied one to one. This was a 14 point comeback in game two for the Hawks. And CJ McCollum went off 32 points, clutch shots down the stretch, getting booed. On the Knicks side of things, a couple thoughts here, Tom. Mike Brown, what are we doing? It's the playoffs, playing a line up with no Carl Anthony Towns and no Jalen Brunson, minus seven and 12 minutes in game two. And then Jalen Brunson, on that side of things, since his first quarter, when he had 19 points on eight of 11, Brunson in seven quarters since then, has scored 38 points on 11 of 37 from the floor. And I thought there was way too much Jalen Brunson down the stretch of game two in that game, especially considering an adjustment that the Hawks made that dictated the way the Knicks were playing. The Hawks put a center on Josh Hart for seven plays in the final five minutes of that game. Kamingo was defending Cat, and Mike Brown didn't once try to give Cat a touch inside the three-point line. And that's in part because of Mike Brown not instructing his players to do that, and that's also in part the players not finding Carl Anthony Towns in those situations. And it's in part Carl Anthony Towns not imposing his will inside against the smaller Jonathan Kamingo. But I just don't think you can let your $53 million highest paid player on the team be a bystander for the last six minutes of the game simply because he has Jonathan Kamingo defending him and you have a center defending Josh Hart. They ran everything through Brunson in heart, and I felt like that was a massive mistake for the Knicks is why in part, they blew that lead and moving forward in the series, they need to find Kat. They can't let him just be an onlooker from the sidelines down the stretch of these games. He had a pretty good game too, but he did nothing down the stretch, Tom. Ultimately, I think for Brunson, he's got to be better too, but part of being better is finding balance and knowing to find Carl Anthony Towns.

Speaker 2:
[72:13] Man, what a statement it was from Carl Anthony Towns earlier this season, preseason when it was just like a layup of a question from a reporter being like, hey, so Mike Brown, head coach, you're feeling good about the sets that he's putting in? And Carl Anthony Towns is like, yeah, I don't really know. It remains to be seen.

Speaker 1:
[72:31] He knew something.

Speaker 2:
[72:32] It was such a layup. It was such like, oh, we're excited. Training camp has been great, excited to have Mike Brown as the coach. He's putting in some new things. From day one, Carl Anthony Towns and Mike Brown have not been on the same page. And he's made it apparent throughout this season. And you look at Carl Anthony Towns' numbers, Kat's numbers scoring wise have plummeted this season. It's been a really ugly year for him. And then down the stretch, you're right, is that they had mismatches and opportunities to go to Kat in the post on a real size advantage and tactical advantage against Jonathan Kaminga, who other teams have isolated and targeted in the past. And Mike Brown was not able to exploit that matchup. And I don't know if it's Carl Anthony Towns is innocent in this too. Like it almost feels like they just haven't been vibing all season long. I don't know if this is a statement by Kat. But clearly, there's been a disconnect between him and the head coach ever since he took over the job. And I think this is when it gets exposed. And those miscommunications or not being on the same page, all of that surfaces in the brightest moments. And I just want to take a moment here to shout out CJ McCollum. I think the greatest inefficiency in the NBA right now is finding guys on the Wizards roster, whether it's Denny Abia or CJ McCollum. Who's it going to be? Bilal Kulabali, who's going to be next? Pick up off the scrapheap in Washington and then turn into a star. CJ McCollum, Lehigh, awesome job from him in game two. Just awesome theater there at Madison Square Garden.

Speaker 1:
[74:06] Yeah, he was incredible. Get booed, clutch shots all down the stretch. And that second half of the game, part of the reason why Atlanta won this. I mean, you think about what the Hawks did on the offensive end and what the Knicks didn't do finding Carol Anthony Towns. The Hawks made 18 shots in the second half with Brunson or Kat on the floor. 14 of them, Kat or Brunson was the targeted defender. On 14 of 18 of their made shots when Brunson or Kat were on the floor, 14 of them were Kat or Brunson targets. And you juxtapose that against the other end of the floor with the Knicks failing to find Carl Anthony Towns with the smaller Jonathan Kaminga on him. It was just a stark difference in the coaching in this series and in the execution from the players on the floor. And you watch these highlights if you're watching us on YouTube. They're just going at Brunson. They're finding Carl Anthony Towns in actions over and over and over in the second half of that game. And for the Hawks, they win that 107-106 coming back from down 14 in the game. I thought that adjustment when they were on the offensive end of the floor was really the key to their victory, driving that victory in addition to what I mentioned earlier by putting a center on Josh Hart and the Knicks failing to exploit that. It's a great comeback by the Hawks. And the thing is for the Knicks moving forward in this series, we can talk about, oh, they should find Catmore. They should do this on offense. Brunson needs to take less shots and move the ball a little bit more. There's no fixing Brunson-Cat on defense. And that's where the Knicks, you look at this team, they just might have a fundamental flaw that's going to prevent them from getting through the Eastern Conference. Whether they lose in Atlanta to round one or whether it's next round, or whether it's the Eastern Conference Finals, there's just nothing you can do about Cat Brunson. And I thought that was really apparent in game two in that second half. 100%.

Speaker 2:
[76:14] And the way that they just eviscerated Jalen Brunson. He's not like... So the thing about Tyrese Halliburton last year and his... A lot of the things that people say about Tyrese Halliburton is historically being targeted and that he doesn't have enough strength to play in postseason basketball defensively is that he's a defensive playmaker. He's long and he can get steals, jump the passing lanes, block shots. Jalen has none of those things. The only thing that Brunson has defensively is if he steps up for a charge. He's one of the top charge makers in the league, but if he's not getting the calls on push offs or he's not able to stay in front of guys to actually take that charge, then he's useless defensively. He's too small and he's preserving a lot of his energy for the offense event. So good on Quinn Snyder, CJ McComb and the rest of the Hawks to exploit that. And there's just not a lot of evidence of guys, point guards, who are not able to make their own play make defensively and create turnovers and intercept those passing lanes. Like Tyrese Halbert in the past, Chris Paul comes to mind where it's like, is he too small? Is he too light in order to make an impact defensively and he can't be exploited out there? Jalen Brunson, they need the guys to shoot well, to not be exploited on the defense event. And you saw Mikael Bridges on the last second shot there, that look at the end. I didn't feel great about that for Mikael Bridges, but it's one of those things that those other guys, the role players, Oji Ananobe, Mikael Bridges, and Josh Hart have to be so good offensively because they have to make up for the defensive exploits of Carl Anthony Townes and Jalen Brunson. So they're only gonna get as far as those role players, unfortunately, hitting those shots and being shot makers because man, they gotta work so hard defensively in order to cover up the shortcomings of Kat and Jalen Brunson.

Speaker 1:
[78:09] I posted a mock draft this week on Yahoo Sports and the audio version of this podcast, we'll hear it later, going through the whole first round. One of the things I bring up during that is in this year's draft, Tom, there's a lot of guards, smaller guards, not quite as small as Brunson, but smaller guards projected to go in the 5-14 range. Guards like Kingston Fleming from Houston, Darius Acuff from Arkansas, Louisville, Michael Brown, LeBaron Phylon from Alabama, there's a good number of them in that range. I think you look around the league right now, you can reach all NBA heights like Jalen Brunson has because of your offense and still have the severe flaw. You can become an elite offensive talent like Trey Young and his Hawks fans knew about. And it can turn out your team might actually be better off without you. And so I think in this year's draft class, it's just going to be very fascinating to see where some of these guys go. Because one of the conversations I have with the executives around the league when it comes to this draft class is like, do you want one of these 6'2 or 6'3 guards or smaller to be your centerpiece? Or can they really only be a spark on your team? Is it a mistake to draft them with the hopes of them being a centerpiece of your roster when it could be so tough to build around them? Or is this in the case of the Knicks, is this merely the fact that it's not Bronson? It's a cat issue. Like if cat were a great defensive player, it'd be acceptable if Bronson were the defender that he is. It just makes your roster a bit harder to build. And ultimately, I think in this year's draft class, that is going to be one of the key things to watch for come lottery night, with how this board falls. Because I think there's a chance this year that you see some of those guards go a little bit lower than people anticipate, in part because of what we're seeing in the postseason. With just small guards, they get attacked over and over and over again. It's the way it is at the highest levels of basketball. And even when you're at the Jalen Bronson level, offensively, it can be tough. There could be people questioning if you're actually a positive on your team. And I think that's pretty telling.

Speaker 2:
[80:35] Well, and you look at the other side of this, the Hawks. The Hawks are living proof of how the offensive exploits of a really small guard, their reach is an upper boundary on that. And in the playoffs, it really exposes how, if you get targeted down the stretch, you can lose a game, despite Trey Young having 30 and 10. You can lose that game because the other team is scoring 35 and 15, essentially, on the other end. And so what you're seeing with the Atlanta Hawks is living proof of, yeah, a lot of points and assists on one end, but we're going to get blasted defensively and just get ruined in late game situations on those targeted defensive plays. And so Jalen Brunson is a better offensive guy than Trey Young is, but defensively, they've got to figure out a way to not have them isolated on an island here, whether that's getting quick switches with Mikkel Bridges or Josh Hart or OJ Ananobe. They've got to figure out a better game plan in game three or else. This is what a lot of a nightmare series for for Knicks fans is that the Atlanta Hawks, even without Trey Young, beat them in the first round.

Speaker 1:
[81:45] We'll see if this does indeed become a nightmare for the Knicks. The last series that we haven't talked about yet is the Sixers tied it up 1-1 with the Boston Celtics after winning game 2, 1-11 to 97. And this was the VJ Edgecombe show. He had 30 and 10 in the game, the youngest NBA player with 30 and 10 ever since Magic Johnson in 1980, becoming the youngest player ever to do that. And he's the most recent rookie to do it since Tim Duncan had 30 and 10 back in 1998 as a rookie. And I thought the variety of the ways in which Edgecombe scored in this game just looked like superstar level stuff. Edgecombe has made shots. Four of them were spot up threes. Two were cuts and drives on the fast break. He had a pull up from the left elbow, a fade away from the right elbow. He had a fade away from the left baseline. He had a drive into a tough leaning contested layup. He had a pull up three pointer that he hit with a defender that was caught on the screen. And then late in the game, sixers are up. They got the game kind of in hand, you know. Boston still feels like maybe we got a little bit of a shot. And VJ Edgecombe gets the ball on the right wing and he's I sowed against Peyton Pritchard, drains a three pointer off the dribble and then he glances over and does what looks like a wink at the camera. And it is the funniest moment I think I've ever seen on the basketball court. It looked like he was looking directly into a camera that is in the opposite corner of the court somewhere up in the stands and gave a little wink after making that dagger three pointer. It was superstar level stuff for VJ Edgecombe. He did not look like a rookie. This was the vert like the Tom, the range of buckets he scored. It's not like he just got hot from three off the catch. That was incredible what Edgecombe did in game two.

Speaker 2:
[83:52] I see so much Dwyane Wade and VJ Edgecombe, man. Like the strength, the wink, the fact that he's got this like persona to him, that he's got this grit to him, that he really, really cares both ends of the floor. I love VJ Edgecombe and like, I could say the same thing about Conn Knipple and Cooper Flag and how good that class was. But VJ Edgecombe doing this against the Boston Celtics in their building shows me that he has this kind of, the it factor that you need to have to be superstar level in the NBA. VJ Edgecombe, Dwyane Wade had it, Kobe Bryant had it. You look on all these two guards who right out the gate had this kind of just alpha attitude about them. I just love VJ Edgecombe's game and the way that he was able to do it in so many different ways. It reminds me of, some people might say Jimmy Butler. I don't think he's big enough to be Jimmy Butler, but he certainly has this gravitas.

Speaker 1:
[84:52] He'll be better than Butler, that's for sure.

Speaker 2:
[84:55] He's got this gravitas to him that I think in the same way that Cooper Flag is making a lot of Mavs fans be able to sleep at night over the Luka-Dantridge trade. I think when he did, it's just so good this week. It reminds me of that situation with Sixers fans with MB being out and having the appendicitis and how much of a bummer that is and having Paul George's contract on the books. All of that is true, but as long as you got VJ Edgecombe and to a lesser extent Tyrese Maxey on your team, I think Sixers fans are going to be okay because of this dude. He is something special, man.

Speaker 1:
[85:32] Look, I think for the Sixers to win this series, they still need Embiid at some point. Embiid started his strength and conditioning this week after his surgery to remove his appendix and we'll see from what I understand the conversations I've had, there's still not a clear timeline for his return. I think that would at least indicate a little bit of uncertainty for him to come back even game four on Sunday. I mean, I'd be real iffy there about Embiid returning at that point, but we'll see about that. But ultimately, I do think they need him, Tom. I think for Boston in this game, Edgecombe was unbelievable. Paul George had a really good game and Maxey, he's only 11 for 28 in the game, but I don't care. I just felt like he controlled the game. He needed to take 28 shots. Sometimes that's a good thing when your star does that. He made 11. He had nine assists, only one turnover. I felt like Maxey played an absolute hell of a game. But ultimately, they're going to need Embiid at some point, and Boston isn't going to shoot 13 or 50 from three every single night either. I think Embiid with what he showed before needing the appendix removed down the stretch of the year, he looked good. He looked like a guy who can still tap into close to his old self, and what he would provide on the offensive end of the floor against Kada, against Vuch, against Garza if he's out there as well. It's a major difference. I would just hope that if Embiid does return, it doesn't muck up the offense. I mean, things look so fluid and so fast. There's just so much constant quick decisions by the Sixers in that game to win against Boston. I would hope it doesn't change that, well, I do think it's kind of obvious. I don't know. Maybe not. Maybe you feel differently, Tom. The Sixers are going to need Embiid to return at some point to win the series, right?

Speaker 2:
[87:34] Yeah. I mean, the shot variance of a team that shoots as many Volume 3s as they do. There's going to be a couple of games that you're going to be able to steal if you're the Sixers. The reason why I didn't pick a sweep here in this was because I just feel like the Boston Celtics offense is so predicated on high Volume 3s that when that shot isn't falling, a team like the Sixers can win a couple of these games, but they'll probably need another guy in Joel Embiid if they want to win this series. And I'll just point out Tyrese Maxey's inefficiency in this game is so different when you're a playmaker, like he's grown to be nine assists to one turnover while having, yeah, it's one point per shot is not what you want to see. But it reminds me of something we didn't hit in the earlier part of the program is Jalen Greene on the other side is a similar shooting profile in terms of in that game, he had the most minutes of any player on the Phoenix Suns, 21 points on 23 field goal attempts. But in this series, he has 10 turnovers to four assists. You cannot load up against Tyrese Maxey and expect him to take bad shots. Just not who he is. He's gonna make plays for others when it makes sense for him to do that. There are other guys who can shoot inefficiently and also be a black hole offensively. And that's the case with Jalen Green and a big reason why I just don't see it with him in the next couple of years to be on a winning team in the playoffs. But Tyrese Maxey, when he doesn't have it going, he's gonna make the right play. And Maxey, I think, is a much, I don't think it's, you know, a hot take to say he's a much better player than Jalen Green. But there's a big difference between inefficiency and being a non-productive player. And Tyrese Maxey is way more productive player when he doesn't have the shot going than guys like Jalen Green.

Speaker 1:
[89:24] And he defends too. I mean, Maxey is on the smaller side, but he flies around on defense. He's become a productive defensive player. And I mean, I think you're known about Jalen Green when you put that against, you know, side by side with Tyrese Maxey is smart. It's also smart when you put it against Derek White. Derek White is such a sensational defender. There's always a positive impact he makes. That said, one of the trends to watch with the Celtic shooting variance is Derek White because in this series, he was two for ten in game two. He's now four of 17 through these first two games against the Sixers, 23.5% from three. That's after shooting 32.7% from three on the season. And Derek White was a 40% guy in the last couple of years for Boston. That's a concern for the Celtics with how much Derek White plays, how much he's on the floor. Can he find himself as a shooter? And if he doesn't, suddenly do teams start just sagging off him and saying, hey, go ahead, take the shot. We don't trust you. Derek White has talked openly in the past about how so much of shooting for him is mental. And my buddy, Eric Weiss, who's a listener of the show, and he commented to me on X, he said he thinks Derek White, with all the on-ball responsibilities, something just got shook up in his mind. Like just that he's just not able to just laser in and focus shooting off the catch in the way he did in recent years. And I know that's just, you know, armchair psychologist level stuff. But I do think there's something to that, Tom, considering White has talked so much about his process with the mental side of shooting. I don't think this is mechanical with him. And we'll see what happens moving forward in the postseason. But for Boston, if he can refine his shot, that just dramatically increases their chances of being the team that hoisted Larry O'Brien trophy at the end. And if he doesn't, I do think that plays more into the shooting variance aspect with the Selvix. He took 10 shots in game two. He's part of the reason why they had a poor shooting night. And so for the Selvix, they need Derek Roy to turn it around at some point.

Speaker 2:
[91:29] Yeah. And it's becoming like a worry that he's turning into Draymond Green in the sense that he's not a good three-point shooter and guys are going to hold off of him and let him shoot those open threes. But he's so good defensively and he's a playmaker that you gotta have him on the floor. But Boston fans aren't going to like that comp. But when you're talking to a guy who's shooting as poorly as he did from downtown in the regular season and here in the postseason, he's not getting to the free throw line. It's bizarre because he's as good of a free throw shooter as you'll find in the league or just about 90%. And we talked about it with Scoot Henderson. Usually those guys are 40% three point shooters, and historically you're not leaving Derek White open by choice. But now you're creeping into that zone, like you said, that if you're going to have to take shade off of a guy on the three point line and be able to help off of him, it's not going to be Jason Tatum, it's not going to be Jalen Brown, it's not going to be Peyton Pritchard. But at a certain point, teams are going to start defending him like Draymond Green and just inviting him to shoot. We're not there yet, I don't think. But you're right to point out that the longer that we see this drought from Derek White, it's going to be something on the scouting report that we just don't think that he's worth those rotations, those hard closeouts anymore, and we want to sack off of him.

Speaker 1:
[92:47] Well, Tom, thank you so much for joining me today. People can check out your writing at Yahoo Sports and at Tom The Finder and The Big Number, your podcast every Wednesday covering the NBA playoffs. Tom, thanks for joining me today, man. Have a good weekend.

Speaker 2:
[93:01] You got it, Kev.

Speaker 1:
[93:03] Thank you everybody for watching us live on YouTube. Up next on the audio version of the podcast, I got a full mock draft going through the entire first round. Today's episode of The Kevin O'Connor Show is presented by Game Time. With the NBA back in full swing, nothing's better than being in the stands, but getting last-minute tickets to games can be a bit of a pain. The Game Time app makes it easy though for fans, you can get your tickets on time and at the best price in just a few taps. What I love, fees are always included. I first noticed that when I was mapping out my concert calendar for the remainder of the season because I'm thinking about seeing this band called The Last Dinner Party. I noticed when I was going to purchase tickets, that it was so nice to see that there was no hidden fees at the end when deciding whether to buy the tickets or not. Finally, transparency. And with the Game Time Guarantee, you know the tickets you're going to get are 100% authentic. I go to most NBA games these days using my credentials, but when I decide to go with friends or take a date, I'll be using the Game Time app to snag them. So take the guesswork out of buying NBA tickets with Game Time. Download the Game Time app, create an account and use code KOC for $20 off your first purchase. Terms do apply. Again, create an account and redeem your code KOC for $20 off. Download the Game Time app today. We're doing a mock draft today, and I'm shaking up the order, because that's what's gonna happen on lottery night anyway, and this one's chaotic. So let's get to it with the number one pick in the draft, the Chicago Bulls. The Bulls got the number one pick, and they're drafting their savior, AJ DeBansa, 6'9, BYU forward. Can you imagine if this actually happened on draft night? The Bulls fire their front office, Billy Donovan steps down as head coach. Maybe all along, it doesn't matter who the GM is, it doesn't matter who the coach is. Maybe all that actually matters is drafting a great player. And AJ DeBansa, I would be so fascinated to see him paired with Manus Muzelas, who took a huge leap in his second year, and Josh Giddey, who has size and playmaking skill. And seeing those three guys together, can you imagine that blend of size and skill on the same floor? It could be pretty amazing. It could be pretty incredible. Number two, the Atlanta Hawks moving up to the second pick. Like I said, this is going to be chaotic. Hawks move up to number two with that Pelican Swap they have. And I have the Hawks taking Caleb Wilson out of North Carolina. And I think a lot of people here would lean Peterson or Boozer, and understandably so. But when I talk to people around the league, both on the agent side and the executive and scout side, there is a sense that Caleb Wilson might be the second player taken in June's Draft. Because some executives view him as a higher upside player than Cam Boozer. Can you blame him? Six foot ten, elite athlete, super versatile defender, major flashes with the ball in his hands. And then some people also view him as the safer pick than Darren Peterson. Can you blame him? Peterson didn't play as much as he should have. He dealt with the cramping issues, yadda yadda yadda, you know the stories there. Caleb Wilson feels pretty safe to at least be a screen and roll lob guy who can attack closeouts, switch defensively, make a big impact. Caleb Wilson is safe with a high ceiling. And so there are teams that view him as the number two player in this year's draft behind AJD Batza. And I think for the Hawks, I don't know if they're one of those teams that has Wilson on their board, just to be clear. But think about Okong Wu and Wilson. They would complement each other so perfectly. Okong Wu with his spacing on offense and his passing ability. And he can defend the perimeter and the interior a bit. But Wilson is the guy who kind of covers everything as the defensive player of the year, hopeful someday in the future if he goes down the Devon Mobley path. And then offensively, Wilson, there's so many Hawks lineups that have shooters across the world, Okong Wu included. I think Wilson would be pretty amazing in Atlanta. Number three, the Sacramento Kings. They move into the top four and I get them taking Cameron Boozer out of Duke. Boozer, like they already get some bonus. I'm not worried about the existing roster here. Boozer is just a floor raiser. He makes your team competitive. And that's what the Kings need is somebody who is just good straight up, can help your team and turn you into something competent. And so that's why I have the Kings leaning Boozer here over number four. I'm sorry, I had to do it. I had to do it. Oklahoma City is drafting Darren Peterson with the fourth pick in my latest Mock Draft. Can you imagine if this happened? There's a 7.1% chance the Thunder move into the top four. 7.1%, but to be clear, no team has moved into the top four with 12th, 13th, or 14th odds yet. But 7.1% is not bad. And I just think it's worth exploring this scenario if OKC were to move up. And I think if they were number one, they'd take DeBansa. But if they were even number two, don't you think a team like them should probably just take Darren Peterson? They already get Chet. They already get Isaiah Hartenstein and Jalen Williams. They've drafted Sorber last year as a big... Do they really need Boozer? Do they really need Wilson? Boozer could fit anywhere. But Darren Peterson here, like there's no team that could embrace him having to play 20 or 25 minutes. If that's the path it goes, there's... Can you imagine him playing off ball? Like, what if he's not an on-ball presence? He could still be a star for the Thunder in the Isaiah Joe rule, while also being able to do a ton on the ball as well. He's a great defender. It would be terrifying if this happened. If the Thunder moved into the top four, considering the team they already have, this is literally the most chaotic thing that could possibly happen on lottery night, is the Thunder moving into the top four. But that's why I wanted to do it. In this mock, because there is going to be a team in that bottom four, a team that is like they tanked all year long, and they're hoping for the number one pick this year. Washington, Indiana, Brooklyn, Utah. There's going to be a team in that group that is going to fall. And so I wanted to explore, what does it look like for these teams if they slip? And I'll tell you what, I feel like this year, it is detrimental for these franchises. And so let's go through it, starting with number five, the Washington Wizards. They have the worst record in the league. They fall to five. I have them taking Keaton Wogler, Illinois freshman guard. Wogler, I really like. I think there's some concerns with the fit for any of these guys, Wogler, Mikel Brown, like the Fleming's, Burys, all of these guys, Acuff. Like, do any of them really fit great with Trey Johnson and this existing back court? Do they really fit that great with Alex Saar? Yeah, sure, Alex Saar, but I'm not sure about with Trey Johnson. I think Keaton Wogler is just a best available player selection here, but I don't love the fits with any of those guys I mentioned. And moving on to number six, the LA Clippers. Sorry Pacers, their pick is top four protected. There's a real chance this happens on draft night, that the Clippers are picking fifth or sixth. In this mock, they're picking sixth. I have them taking Mikel Brown out of Louisville. Freshman guard, real spark plug scorer. I don't love any of the choices here, considering Darius Garland. And this is kind of a theme with all of these picks. Number seven, just to kind of go through a couple of them real quick. Number seven, I have the Nets taking Darius Acuff. Number eight, I have the Jazz taking Braden Burys. And then number nine, I have the Grizzlies taking Kingston Flennings. And then number 10, I've got the Mavericks taking LeBaron Phylon. I think from five to nine, do you really want to guard? Like, does a guard actually make total sense for any of those teams? I can't help but think there's a chance come draft night, depending on how the board looks. Obviously, that determines everything. There's a chance guys like Yaxle Lindenborg or Kareem Lopez or, I don't know, like even everybody's favorite, you know, like if you're watching this video, odds are, you know who Alan Graves is. He's from Santa Clara, but like guys like that or Nate Immense, Koa Peet, like isn't there a chance some of those guys move ahead these guards? I mean, like just like think about right here, the sixth pick. The Cuppers have Garland in their backcourt and Michael Brown's another small guard. Does that make all the sense in the world? No. The Nets just drafted four guards last year. Do I really want to add Darius Acuff? Maybe. Like he's probably considered the best player available, highest upside and all that. And like, I don't think Nolan Traore is going to change your decisions with what way you go. But if you do include what you already have and what you're already invested in, I do think that's a fair question. The Utah Jazz, like they got Quijote George, Isaiah Collier. They have some pretty good young ball handlers they're building around. Do any of these guys make total sense? No, none of them do. Brayden Burys, I think makes the most sense because Burys is so good at all the other stuff. Playing hard, diving for loose balls, he can defend multiple positions, he's strong. He could work with Quijote George, but like, Acuff to Nets, sure, yeah, upside play, it makes sense. Acuff to the Jazz, I don't like the fit with Quijote George. And so like up and down the line, I think especially in this Mock, it's just worth thinking about. We have all these guards that are in this range. Are we actually sure it's gonna be like that on draft night? That's been one of the running conversations I've had with executives around the league in recent weeks, and it's really on my mind. And so number nine, Memphis Grizzlies. I get them taking Kingston Fleming's. I think this one makes some sense. Grizzlies are a team that, you know, John Marant probably going out the door. Kingston Fleming's or any of those other guards makes some sense for Memphis to be their next guy, grow with Cedric Howard, grow with Zach Eaddy. And Fleming's, like, he's such a good player. I just think he's going to be rock solid. It would remind me of when they drafted Mike Conley many, many, many, many years ago, where you're hoping for the star, but you get a good player. And that's what I think Fleming's will be. Number 10, Dallas Mavericks. I get them taking LeBaron Filon out of Alabama. This is a team where I think a guard makes all the sense in the world. Kyrie Irving is not going to play forever. You got Cooper Flag, Pear Cooper with another shot creator, a guy who can play with and without the ball in his hands. Filon, the shooting improvement this past season in Alabama, becoming a 40-plus percent guy from three. He has shown the ability to play with and without the ball. It could work with Cooper. And I think it would be awesome to see him growing with Kyrie Irving, learning from him as a young player, assuming Kyrie does actually stay in Dallas next year. Number 11, Yaxle Lendenborg to the Milwaukee Bucks. Yaxle would kind of go against the grain of what the Bucks have historically done. They typically draft young. They take swings. And this has been a thing since before John Horace was their GM. Of course, he wasn't the one who drafted Yannis, but he is the one who drafted like Thon Maker. And these guys who are big swings, it's been Milwaukee's philosophy. Yaxle is 24, so he's not that young upside player. But is he? I mean, just because he's 24, like his developmental story going from Juco, transferring, transferring again and then ending up in Michigan and becoming a national champion. Everybody's developmental trajectory is so different. And so I think with Yaxle, there's star potential even though he's old. And that's why, like I said earlier, I'm not going to be shocked if come like draft night in late June, Yaxle is the fifth pick. That wouldn't surprise me. So there's just something to keep in mind when it comes to these mocks right now in the middle of April at this point. Number 12, similar thoughts here with the Golden State Warriors. I've got them taking Kareem Lopez. He played these past two years in the NBL Next Stars program over in Australia, this time with the New Zealand Breakers. Kareem Lopez is a very, very underrated player in this draft class with his size at 6'8, his physicality is very tough, very strong for a teenager. Okay shooter, very versatile defender, very smart off-ball player, good cotter, can scream and do all that stuff that I think would be great in the Steve Kerr system. But is Steve Kerr gonna be back? We'll see. The Warriors obviously drafting Kaminga and Weisman, they haven't exactly drafted for the Steve Kerr philosophy either. But if Kerr sticks around, and in recent years they've done that a little bit more. But I like Kareem Lopez there. Number 13, Hans Steinbeck. I got the Miami Heat taking him. Steinbeck, look, you already got Kaleo Ware, you already got Bam Etabayo, you can't just have two bigs. And I think Miami is at their best with two bigs on the floor. The fact Bam can space out the three now, that Kaleo Ware can do the same. And by the way, Steinbeck has some touch from three-point range as well. You could have a super versatile front court, different configurations, different styles, and really dictate how the opponent is matching up against you. So I like the idea of Miami drafting a big here, whether it's Steinbeck or Adai Mara, who I have to the Charlotte Hornets with the 14th pick here. Charlotte, they have a great second half of the year. And the Charlotte Hornets looked like they were going to make the playoffs for sure, that they would be the team we'd see going toe-to-toe with these Detroit Pistons and a 1-8 matchup. It didn't happen. It didn't happen. Their season ended in just terrible fashion. And I think one of the things that's apparent about them is, as much as I love Musa Diabati, as much as I like Ryan Kalkbrenner, who they drafted as center last year in the middle of the draft, Kalkbrenner is not going to be the long-term answer at center, but he gives you an idea of what they need alongside Musa Diabati, who is the versatile, switchable, good screener, hustle guy. Diabati is a very good player, but you need your big dude. Enter Adai Mara, 7'3, massive frame, tough interior player, great passer. He would work in that system with all their perimeter guys. I think this is one of the best prospect to team matches possible, Adai Mara and Charlotte. I'm kinda hoping for something like that to happen. Number 15, Chicago Bulls on the clock again. Of course, they get AJ DeBonsa with the first pick in this Mock Draft. They get this pick from Portland cause Portland made the playoffs and boy, oh boy, Blazers fans. We'll see, one to one, no Wemby for who knows how long with the concussion after his face smacked the floor. That was terrible. But like, hey, one to one, you get a shot. You never know. You never know what can happen. Maybe it will be worth losing this pick, but for the Bulls, man, like number 15, get Christian Anderson here. Get yourself a nice young point guard, guy who runs a lot of pick and roll, who can compliment your big guards, Badus Muzales, Josh Giddey, and this Mock, AJ DeBata, runs a lot of pick and roll, can shoot off the catch. I think somebody like Christian Anderson would make a lot of sense on a team with a bunch of size and length and versatility at the wing spot. Number 16, the Memphis Grizzlies. I got them taking Dailan Swain out of Texas here, and for Memphis, this is just another swing, another upside play. He didn't move up in this Mock Draft in the lottery, so you're taking swings now. And Swain, if you've watched him at all at Texas or even at Xavier, the dude gets to the rim and that's all he does is get to the rim. He is so good, so creative around the basket. He's so long at 6'8, with long arms, but he can't shoot. But I think a guy like him, again, like when you're talking about who could move up between today and the draft in June, Swain, if he shoots the hell out of the ball in pre-draft workouts, Dalen Swain is gonna be in the top 10. It's just the reality of it. We are so early in this process now, in terms of player evaluation, it is not done. It is just beginning in some regards. And so Swain in the middle of the first round right now to Memphis feels like a swing. But maybe come draft night in June, we'll see if he's lower, if he can't shoot in workouts, or even higher if he's shooting really well. Number 17 here, Oklahoma City up again. This is an interesting pick. I like this pick for them. I get them taking Koa Pete out of Arizona. His stock is all over the place. You hear some people saying lottery, other people saying 20s, go back to school. If Koa Pete does stay in this draft, I think there's gonna be a point where a team like the Thunder that's had success in turning non-shooters into shooters, they're gonna say, you know what, screw it. This guy has a huge frame. It's 6'8, he's strong, he's tough, he's smart. We can turn him into a solid shooter. Everything else is gonna look amazing. And so I think Koa Pete to Oklahoma City is like a worthy bet for a team like the Thunder that's already deep, already has a lot of talent and can afford to miss. And if Koa Pete never can figure out to shoot, so be it. You get enough picks and enough other young players anyway. Number 18. I get the Charlotte Hornets here taking Nate Ament from Tennessee. Look, this guy might end up in the top 10. He might be in the lottery. He might be outside the lottery. And that's the big question around the league right now when you talk to executives. Where is he gonna go? Nate is in a position where his freshman year was started out very slowly. He did not look like a top 10 worthy player. He had a great stretch in the middle of the year, looked awesome, 24 points a game, but it was a six game stretch. He's still so raw. He doesn't get to the rim enough. He's not that strong. His impact defensively was underwhelming compared to his size at six foot 10. But the thing is, is like he's getting, somebody's gonna take a swing eventually. Players that are, his height, that can handle the way he can, that can shoot off the dribble, they don't grow on trees. And so I think for Charlotte at 18, this is around the range that I would love to draft him to my franchise. Number 19, I got Bennett Sturtz, Iowa senior guard to the Toronto Raptors. I mean, we're watching them in the playoffs right now against the Cavaliers. No Emmanuel quickly, so that hurts. But boy, oh boy, even with quickly, the Raptors need a shock creator. And one of the guys I love for them in this year's draft class is Bennett Sturtz. Sturtz is gonna be 24 as a rookie. He's on the older end, but he's somebody who can come in right away and just settle this offense and organize this offense with the ball on his hands, but also has the ability to play off of the ball. We know Scotty Barnes and Brendan Ingram, and all these guys on the Raptors have talent with the ball on their hands, but they're not point guards. Sturtz can do both, play with the ball and play without the ball. And Sturtz is gonna get a ton of opportunities to play without the ball in his years at Drake, and then this past year at Iowa. But he can do it. He's a very smart carder, great off-ball shooter. I'm a believer in that guy. Number 20, San Antonio Spurs. This pick comes to them via the Atlanta Hawks. I get the Spurs taking Alan Graves out of Santa Clara here. And I think this would be, this is the type of pick that I think would cause the online draft community to go nuts, because Graves is an analytics darling, 40% plus from three point range, six foot nine frame, multi-positional defender, can be used in small ball five situations, but also play the three or the four in other ones. Can you imagine him next to Wembay in the Spurs frontcourt? Can you imagine him paired with Castle and Harper for the years to come? The Spurs aren't going to have Harrison Barnes forever. And I think Alan Graves would be a perfect long-term replacement and a guy who could play in the short term too. I mean, him and Carter Bryant at the 3-4, jeez. I mean, the Spurs would be just crazy if they were to get Alan Graves. Number 21, Detroit Pistons. I get them taking Isaiah Evans. They need more shooting. They just need more shooting. 29 to the three points, hems. 17 to the three point percentage. We've seen the ups and downs of them throughout the playoffs against the Magic. They need more shooting, but also they need more secondary creation. And Isaiah Evans is not just an off-ball guy, not just a guy who runs off screens. Not just Duncan Robinson. Evans, his sophomore year at Duke, improved as a creator, got to the basket about double the amount of time as he did as a freshman, got a bit stronger, showed more ability as a passer. That's what the Pistons are going to need with this pick at number 21. Somebody who can offer shooting, but also a bit of creation. Easier said than done, of course, to find that. Number 22, the Philadelphia 76ers. I get them taking Crevas out of Arizona. It's very, very murky right now with whether he's going to keep his name in the draft or not. But boy, Philly won one against Boston. Like that game to win, VJ Edgecombe going off. Like that was amazing. First, first guard since Magic Johnson to have 30 and 10 as a rookie. That's, that's crazy. And so for the sixers, like you got to be thinking of Maxey and Edgecombe or your long-term future. And Bede's part of the show too still. Crevas can be a backup to Embiid. And then when Embiid's out, he could fit great with Edgecombe and with Maxey because he's got some flair as a passer. He can protect the rim. He can, you know, rebound. He can maybe someday, you know, do some stuff on the perimeter as well. Like, I think Crevas, if he stays in the draft, could end up higher than 22. Number 23, the Atlanta Hogs up again. I get them taking Cameron Carr, 6'5, Baylor, sophomore wing, red shirt. Carr, 40% guy from three. Looks like a 3 in D style guy. He's very light, 175 pounds. Obviously needs to get stronger. I just think for Atlanta, he fits the system. The ability to play with and without the ball. Have him grow behind Nikhil Alexander Walker in the years to come and see what he can turn into. Number 24, New York Knicks. I get them taking Johnson out of Michigan. Moraes, I love this guy. Again, another one who might go back to school. We'll find out by Friday on the deadline for college athletes. But the dude is the most underrated player on that Michigan roster. Just the plays he makes, the hustle, the defensive IQ. The Knicks, it's not that they need another guy like that at the wing. I view Moraes Johnson as almost kind of like a wing slash small backup five. You know, like, Mitchell Robinson will be a free agent this off season. Maybe you lose him. Moraes Johnson, you can pair him with Carl Anthony Towns, or you could use him as a wing. And the shooting question is there, I like the idea of Moraes Johnson as a pick for the Knicks at the 24th slot. Number 25, the Lakers. The Lakers are picking Amari Allen in my Mock Draft here. 6'7, freshman, out of Alabama. The dude's just a good, smart player. He's just rock solid. Rebounds the hell out of the ball, one of the best rebounding wings in this whole draft class. Shoots, cuts, screens, plays hard on defense. He doesn't have upside, but do you really need upside next to Luca and Austin Reeves and LeBron James? I think Amari Allen would be a perfect role player next to those guys. He would support those stars and make them even better. Number 26, I get Sinak out of Houston going to Denver here. I don't love him as a prospect. His stock is all over the place. There's people that view him as an early second rounder. There's people that say he still belongs in the lottery and that people are nuts for being down on him after a shaky season at Houston. But the people who like him like him because great athlete flashes perimeter skill with the ability to shoot from mid-range. Could he extend that to three? And then there's the people that hate him that like say he can't stay out of foul trouble. He doesn't like to play inside. He's contact adverse. He wants to be on the perimeter. He wishes he was five feet shorter. That's what the haters say about Chris Sinek and I tend to side with them. But for Denver, like Peyton Watson, no contracts out for Denver. Upcoming free agent wants his money, might not stay. Sinek feels like somebody to put into that role in the developmental program and hopefully turn him into a quality three-point shooter. That's what he wants to be after all. Number 27, Jaden Quaitens to the Boston Celtics. Quaitens, I mean, the dude could have been a top 10 pick if he didn't get hurt this year at Kentucky's. But we're only going off of 28 games over two years after he just tore up his knee to end his tenure at Arizona State, torn ACL, meniscus, fractured knee. And then he barely played at Kentucky this year. But the fact is he's six foot 10. And last time we saw him healthy, this dude was just unbelievable on defense. And for Boston at 27, already a deep team, this feels like a worthy swing to me at this point in the draft. Number 28, I got Ubuca Okori out of Stanford going to the Minnesota Timberwolves. Look, Rob Dillingham didn't work out. Mike Conley's old and there's no guarantee that Bones Highland is gonna stick around next season. Okori feels like a good, worthy bet at this point in the draft. He's so fast at 6-2. He's a spark. Maybe he's the guy that turns into what you wish Rob Dillingham was as a backcourt partner next to Anthony Edwards. Number 29, Cleveland Cavaliers. I get them taking Vsar from North Carolina. I look like Jared Allen, Evan Mobley. Add a third big to that group. I would love to see Cleveland in a situation where they can play with two bigs who can space the floor. You got Vsar and Mobley. Or you got Allen paired with him in a front court. Or why not all three at once? Go super jumbo. See what happens. I'd love to see that type of experiment similar to what we've seen the Utah Jazz do. Granted, they stink, but we have seen them put Lowry-Markin at the three a bunch. And by the way, Cleveland did that. Cleveland, a long time ago, put Lowry-Markin at the three. That's really the first time he had that opportunity. So if you can put Mobley defensively as your three and Vesar offensively as your three because he can space the floor and attack closeouts and all that, I'm intrigued by long ball with three bigs out on the floor. So that's just maybe a personal preference that I'd love to see. Number 30, let's go with Yesafu, Ada Baylor to the Dallas Mavericks. This dude is 6'5, plays hard, he's a great athlete. He's not that good at this point. Otherwise, he'd be in the lottery with his body type and the flashes he shows as a scorer, but he's just so raw. I think we're going to see him in the late first or early second, and somebody is going to take a swing and hope that he turns into a steal, and for Dallas, we already see him get a guard in Phylon with the 10th pick. I think here you take a swing and see if you can find a guy who can pair with Cooper Flag at that wing forward spot and turn into something potentially really, really special in the years to come. So that's my Mock Draft. Let's quickly go through the top 10 picks here. Take a look at those. I mean, if this top four happen, it's a really low probability, but at least one of these things might happen on lottery night, maybe two of them. And some of these teams in the five to eight to nine range, they're going to fall. And so I think it's worth looking at these scenarios to figure out what's going to happen. And then from 11 on this next group here, I love the Axle pairing with Milwaukee. I think that would be a really good pick. And I love Mara to Charlotte. I'm curious what you guys think. Who are these players in this kind of middle range that might end up going higher? Who might end up going lower? Let me know in the comments there. I'm very curious about who you think as well. And then in the next group after that, I mean, this is the point of the draft where some of these guys, next time we do a mock, Crevas, Johnson, Allen, these guys might not be in the draft. So this area of the draft, and then in the early second round, is already starting to thin out. Because last time we did a mock here on Yahoo NBA, which you should subscribe to, by the way, we had Gongba from Duke, we had Braylon Mullins from UConn, we had in my second round, we had Alex Condon, and we also had Thomas Hawk. Those guys are all gone. They elected to stay in school, and there's gonna be some of these guys that do the same thing by the time in the next time we do a mock draft. Big thank you to Tom Haberstroh for joining me on today's episode. We'll be back again on Monday, and we'll be talking more NBA playoffs and more NBA draft. Thank you to Father Jarr and Misty for the music. Thank you to Amy for producing today's episode. Have a good weekend, everybody.