transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] Hey, Tim Bidermias here. April is National Poetry Month, and to celebrate, we're returning this week to some of our favorite interviews with poets. Here's Andrew Limbong.

Speaker 2:
[00:12] Hey, it's Empire's Book of the Day. I'm Andrew Limbong. We've got a new thing for you today. Empire's Rachel Martin has this new show called Wild Card, where she talks to high-profile guests about, well, lots of different stuff really, but she has this way of getting people I've heard tons of interviews from to open up in new and interesting ways. So we wanted to play an episode, I think, might be of interest to Book of the Day pod listeners. It's with poet Laura Ada Limón, and they talk about chocolate, leg warmers, poetry, and death. Like I said, the podcast hits on a lot of different things. Give it a listen.

Speaker 3:
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Speaker 4:
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Speaker 5:
[02:23] When's the last time you forgave yourself for something?

Speaker 6:
[02:26] This morning.

Speaker 4:
[02:29] Great.

Speaker 7:
[02:30] Top of mind.

Speaker 6:
[02:31] The nice thing about being in my mid-Tulade 40s, yeah, I forgive myself all the time. I have to.

Speaker 5:
[02:43] I'm Rachel Martin and this is Wild Card, the game where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest chooses questions at random. Pick a card, one through three. Questions about the memories, insights, and beliefs that have shaped their lives.

Speaker 6:
[03:00] I am a very sensitive person and so either it's all walls, or there's no walls and I have to find that middle ground.

Speaker 5:
[03:06] My guest today is a poet and I'm going to start our episode with an excerpt of one of her poems. Look, we are not unspectacular things. We've come this far, survived this much. What would happen if we decided to survive more, to love harder? This is what US poet Laureate Ada Limón does in so many of her poems. She acknowledges the hard stuff of living, but it is embedded in perseverance and optimism. What would happen if we decided to survive more, to love harder? I read that and I'm like, yes, Ada, I am all in. Let's at least try, right? She's just one of those people who can recognize all the ways that we inflict pain on each other, not to mention our planet, but not get consumed by it. Ada writes in that space between grief and joy, and I love that space. Hi Ada.

Speaker 6:
[04:00] Hello, Rachel. How are you?

Speaker 5:
[04:02] I'm well. It's so nice to meet you.

Speaker 7:
[04:04] Thank you so much for doing this.

Speaker 6:
[04:06] My pleasure. Thank you for having me. It's great to see you.

Speaker 5:
[04:09] We're going to talk, but I did bring you here to play a game. I hope you're excited about that, question mark?

Speaker 6:
[04:17] I would say a little bit nervous, but yes, excited.

Speaker 5:
[04:20] I think that's a healthy balance. I think that's actually the right answer. But I do want to mention your latest book. You've published a lot of collections of your own poetry, but your latest is a curation of poems from different poets about the natural world.

Speaker 6:
[04:33] Yeah, I'm very excited about this anthology.

Speaker 5:
[04:36] It's called You Are Here. Why is it called that?

Speaker 6:
[04:42] I thought so much of our life is we think about what's next, what's next. I think not only in my life and in my heart, I am always trying to remind myself that I am here. Not just on this planet, but in this moment, in this space right here, you and I talking.

Speaker 7:
[05:00] This is it, actually.

Speaker 6:
[05:02] Yes, this is our life. This is our life. The title came to me once when I was on a hike, and I noticed the sign post on the trail marker, and it said, You Are Here. I thought, what a good reminder. That's the meaning of it. What a good reminder. You are here.

Speaker 5:
[05:28] Are you ready to do this game?

Speaker 6:
[05:30] I'm ready.

Speaker 5:
[05:31] All right, let's do it. There are a few rules, okay? So number one, you get one skip. If you use your skip, I will replace that question with a new one from the deck, okay?

Speaker 6:
[05:41] Okay.

Speaker 5:
[05:42] Number two, you get a flip. You can put me on the spot and ask me to answer one of the questions before you do. We're going to break it up into rounds. Round one is about memories, experiences that shaped you.

Speaker 6:
[05:54] Okay.

Speaker 5:
[05:55] Round two is insights, lessons that you have learned or are learning.

Speaker 6:
[06:00] Okay.

Speaker 5:
[06:01] Round three is about beliefs, the ways you make sense to the world. It is a game, so there's a prize when you make it to the end.

Speaker 6:
[06:07] Yay. Is it chocolate? Oh my gosh, it should be chocolate.

Speaker 5:
[06:13] I can definitely make that happen for you, but spoiler alert, it is not chocolate, Ada. So round one, this is memories. Okay. I am holding three cards. You can't see the questions and you get to pick one, two, or three.

Speaker 6:
[06:31] Two.

Speaker 5:
[06:32] Two. Okay. When is the first time you remember feeling proud of yourself?

Speaker 6:
[06:42] I think that I remember feeling proud of myself when I was very young, I was very little, and I remember being able to get down a dance routine in my little dance class, and thinking how amazed I was that the body could figure things out like that. And, you know, like, wow, like my body and looking kind of down at my legs being like, oh, my body did the same thing as the other bodies. And it was like moving in air and in a sort of, I remember feeling the real thrill of unison and moving in unison.

Speaker 5:
[07:31] Do you remember the genre of dance? Are we talking about hip hop? What are we talking about?

Speaker 6:
[07:36] It was jazz dance.

Speaker 7:
[07:37] It was jazz dance.

Speaker 6:
[07:39] Patti Ferrara was the teacher. And I absolutely some of my best memories are from early days in the little dance studio in Sonoma, California.

Speaker 5:
[07:50] I mean, what I remember about jazz dance or the outfits.

Speaker 7:
[07:54] Did you have a good outfit?

Speaker 6:
[07:55] You mean leg warmers?

Speaker 5:
[07:57] That's right.

Speaker 6:
[07:59] I still have leg warmers and they are my favorite thing.

Speaker 5:
[08:03] Awesome.

Speaker 7:
[08:04] You heard it here first.

Speaker 5:
[08:05] Ada Limón, poet laureate, writes poems in leg warmers.

Speaker 6:
[08:09] Okay.

Speaker 5:
[08:10] Next question. We are still in memories, but we've got three new cards, okay? Pick a card, one, two, or three.

Speaker 6:
[08:16] Let's go with one.

Speaker 5:
[08:18] Okay. One. Oh, this is like a softball for a poet, but here we go. What's a smell that brings back a vivid memory for you?

Speaker 6:
[08:28] It's so funny because we just mentioned chocolate. But my grandfather and grandmother on my mother's side, both made dueling types of fudge because they had their specific fudge that they liked, and his was a hard sort of old-fashioned kind of fudge, and hers was a soft seas candy fudge. Anytime I smell it, like if it's in the vicinity, I just think of my grandparents. It's such a beautiful memory because my favorite thing was to go into their cupboard. It was a walk-in cupboard, and they would have all of their Tupperware is full of their different kinds of fudge for guests and things, and you could just smell it. You couldn't reach it, unfortunately, but you could smell it. So definitely, yeah, the smell of chocolate and the smell of fudge.

Speaker 5:
[09:27] Did you spend a lot of time with them growing up?

Speaker 6:
[09:29] I did, yes. And my grandmother just died this August, and she's been on my mind a lot. So I think that she's with me in my heart.

Speaker 5:
[09:39] Was she a lover of poetry?

Speaker 6:
[09:42] She did like poetry, although she was very confused that not all my poems rhymed. I told her that some of them do. And at one point when my grandfather passed away, she asked me to write a poem for him, and I made it rhyme.

Speaker 5:
[09:59] Yeah, I love that. Okay, last question in round one, three new cards.

Speaker 6:
[10:05] Two.

Speaker 7:
[10:06] Two.

Speaker 5:
[10:08] Who is someone who played an important role in your life, but you haven't communicated with them in years?

Speaker 6:
[10:17] I think I might skip this one only because I actually think that I'm pretty good at communicating with all the people that have really supported me.

Speaker 7:
[10:28] You got to skip.

Speaker 5:
[10:29] You've deployed it.

Speaker 7:
[10:30] Boom.

Speaker 5:
[10:32] Pick a card. One or two.

Speaker 6:
[10:35] Two.

Speaker 7:
[10:36] Two.

Speaker 5:
[10:39] As a child, when did you realize that the adults around you didn't have all the answers?

Speaker 6:
[10:47] I remember being around seven or eight and asking my mom about a rumor that my brother had said that the apartment we had moved into after my parents' separation was haunted. And I told her, I said, well, I mean, that's not true, right? I mean, ghosts don't exist. And she just paused and she was like, well, and I remember thinking, wait, what? We were just supposed to know that they don't. And she was like, we don't really know for sure. I mean, some people have had some experiences and she was very open. And, you know, she's like, I've never had an experience, but, and I remember then thinking, oh, there was no direct answer to that question. She didn't know. And she was willing to give me a, I don't know.

Speaker 5:
[11:52] And was that exciting for you?

Speaker 6:
[11:56] I think I would have liked a definitive no.

Speaker 5:
[12:00] Because you didn't want to live in a world with ghosts?

Speaker 6:
[12:02] I didn't want to.

Speaker 5:
[12:03] Because I'm super into them. I mean, not, not, I mean, not the scary kind, but the idea of spirits and. Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[12:12] So yeah. So for me, I think that at the time, I would have loved to know. I think that unknowing that she offered me was a gift. And I think that's opened a lot of different worlds and experiences to me. And allowed me to just say that I don't know. And even in that apartment, that space, there are people that still talk about things that they've seen there.

Speaker 5:
[12:35] Okay. So that was my next question. Was the apartment actually haunted? Was there any, I mean, evidence is too strong a word, but other people saw things or felt things?

Speaker 6:
[12:43] Other people saw things. I had an experience as a child, nothing. But it wasn't, nothing's, nothing too scary. Just, you know, seeing things and, you know, it seemed like a benevolent entity.

Speaker 5:
[12:58] What did you see?

Speaker 6:
[12:59] I saw a figure walking towards me when I was sleeping, like going to bed. I was awake, but, and then they just sort of disappeared. Just disappeared. It didn't seem terrifying. It just seemed like a remnant of something.

Speaker 5:
[13:19] But you remember.

Speaker 6:
[13:21] I remember it quite well.

Speaker 5:
[13:24] Do you think that people transition that way when someone dies?

Speaker 6:
[13:29] Maybe. I think that it feels more like, um, like the world has a memory.

Speaker 5:
[13:42] After the break, Ada talks about navigating the vulnerability that can come with her job.

Speaker 6:
[13:47] I feel, I think, a little untethered and unskinned.

Speaker 3:
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Speaker 4:
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Speaker 8:
[15:08] I have kids under 18, so like time is very limited. That's why at BetterHelp our therapists try to have sessions, sometimes at night depending on the therapist or during the weekend. So I think that's what we need to tell the parents. You're not alone. We can help you out.

Speaker 4:
[15:24] If a flexible schedule would help you, visit betterhelp.com/npr for 10% off your first month of online therapy.

Speaker 5:
[15:38] We're moving on to round two, insights, okay? Things you have learned or are learning. Pick a card, one, two or three.

Speaker 6:
[15:47] One.

Speaker 5:
[15:48] One. When do you feel most like an outsider?

Speaker 6:
[15:54] I'm gonna say I feel most like an outsider when I'm in a room full of very wealthy non-artists.

Speaker 5:
[16:09] I imagine you're in those rooms a lot.

Speaker 7:
[16:11] They're called patrons, right? Like patrons of the arts.

Speaker 6:
[16:15] Yes.

Speaker 5:
[16:15] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[16:16] And I think that that's where I feel most like an outsider. I've learned to be in them, and I've even learned to enjoy them sometimes, but I am very aware of how much of an outsider I am in those spaces.

Speaker 7:
[16:32] May I plumb that a little bit?

Speaker 5:
[16:34] No shade to patrons of the arts. Arts need people to invest in them and subsidize them.

Speaker 7:
[16:39] Yes.

Speaker 6:
[16:39] Yes, we do. Please support your local artists and bookstores.

Speaker 5:
[16:42] But what specifically? You feel judged in some way? Because those people venerate you, like you're an artist, you're what they can't be, what they love. But is it an insecurity?

Speaker 6:
[16:58] I don't feel like it's an insecurity. I don't feel like it's being judged, but I feel like it's, what's the phrase I'm looking for? I'm trying to get this right. How do I feel in those spaces?

Speaker 7:
[17:11] Like you're on display in some way?

Speaker 6:
[17:13] Yeah. It's not about the art anymore. It's about me. I think that as most artists know, we make poems or we make paintings or we make music, and it's about those things. We put that, those are our offerings to the world. I feel like sometimes in those spaces with non-artists, it is about me or the person, and that feels almost in some ways too vulnerable, where in reality, you would like to say, oh, if you want to answer that question, you should read this book or you should read this poem, or like we put the poem out first, and the poem for me is the safest, most sacred space, and not having that to protect me, I feel I think a little untethered and unskinned in some ways.

Speaker 5:
[18:20] Also, you carry this thing, right? You're not just the US poet laureate, you're the first Latina to hold this job, and that would also ascribe all this other significance that makes it about you, not the art, not the poetry.

Speaker 6:
[18:35] Exactly. Exactly. And so in those moments, I have to figure out a way to be vulnerable and also protected. But I think I am a very sensitive person, and so I tend to either it's all walls or there's no walls, and I have to find that middle ground. So those spaces can be tricky for me.

Speaker 7:
[18:57] Yeah. Like maybe like a fence has like some space between the boards with a gate that you can go through.

Speaker 6:
[19:05] Like a little circle of trees.

Speaker 7:
[19:07] Yes. I love that. Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[19:09] That's good. That's good.

Speaker 7:
[19:12] Okay.

Speaker 5:
[19:12] So next set of three cards, still in the insights, pick a card one through three.

Speaker 6:
[19:19] Three.

Speaker 5:
[19:20] When's the last time you forgave yourself for something?

Speaker 6:
[19:23] This morning. Great.

Speaker 7:
[19:27] Top of mind.

Speaker 5:
[19:29] Think of a small thing.

Speaker 6:
[19:30] What was it? I have to forgive myself all the time for all sorts of things. Just this morning, I've been traveling a lot, and it's been beautiful, and I'm going to be traveling again, and I was just getting into meditation. I was doing yoga, which I try to do every morning. I was just very stiff, and I just felt very like, I hadn't been moving as much as I should, or hadn't be doing, and I was just hard on myself. Then I was like, you were doing amazing things, like you were doing other things that mattered, and it's okay.

Speaker 5:
[20:08] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[20:11] I think it's very important because I think that early on, I thought all of self-care was really more self-punishing. Same more. What does that mean? I just felt like, well, if I miss a day of working out, then this, or if I do this, or if I feast too much and enjoy too much, then therefore, you'll have to go into-

Speaker 5:
[20:36] Deprivation mode.

Speaker 6:
[20:37] Yes, exactly. I just don't do that anymore. I think that that's been really healthy for me because I feel like you spend a lot, at least for me, a lot of my 20s and 30s just trying to do everything right. The nice thing about being in my mid to late 40s, having those moments of just being like, I'm so grateful to be in this body and get to make choices and live, and I think it's been just such a healthier space for me. So yeah, I forgive myself all the time.

Speaker 5:
[21:18] I think that's good.

Speaker 6:
[21:20] Yeah, I have to.

Speaker 5:
[21:30] After the break, the Beliefs Round. Do you think there's more to reality than we can see or feel?

Speaker 6:
[21:37] 100,000 million percent.

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Speaker 3:
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Speaker 5:
[22:34] Okay, moving on to round three, this is Beliefs. These are questions about the ways that you make sense of the world. First set of three cards, one, two or three?

Speaker 6:
[22:44] Three.

Speaker 5:
[22:45] Three. Oh, have you ever had a premonition about something that came true?

Speaker 6:
[22:53] I feel like I have, and I'm trying to think of, there's many times where I'm a big dreamer. And my dream world is so-

Speaker 5:
[23:05] Like literally and figuratively.

Speaker 6:
[23:07] Yeah. It's like sleeping dreams. And so I think that those moments can be slippery for me, whether they were premonitions or if they were dreams. But I feel like there's a few times, one of them has been, I think that I knew that we weren't going to be able to conceive a child before we decided to give up on fertility treatments. I think I knew that. Wow. And I think it actually helped me to make some decisions to not move forward with any more of the treatments. And so I think I just knew. And it was also very helpful to me because it felt like, as much as I just praised mystery and the unknowing, it felt like my body knew something. And it was able to offer me another option and another future that I wasn't quite ready to do yet and to surrender to yet. Then when I was able to do it and listen to that premonition, it felt like a gift. And it felt like, okay, now, now what else is possible? Yeah. You know, because I think as women in our culture, the only possibility oftentimes offered to us is motherhood. That's right. And I felt very bound by that. And letting that go was really freeing. And I love my life. And I love being child free. And I think that premonition offered that before I even knew it.

Speaker 7:
[24:58] Did you have a specific dream or it was just a knowing in your bones?

Speaker 6:
[25:04] I was floating in the Chesapeake Bay. And I just had this moment of feeling what if my body was only my body? And it felt really powerful. What if it didn't belong to anyone else? And it was just mine.

Speaker 7:
[25:26] We never talk about it that way.

Speaker 6:
[25:29] I never felt it that way. All I wanted was to carry something in me, a baby, a child. And then it was so freeing. And I got out of the ocean, and I remember thinking, that was beautiful. Like, what if I'm enough? What if just my body, what if these boundaries and these borders of my skin touching the water was enough?

Speaker 7:
[25:56] We don't say that. Women don't say that out loud. People don't say that. Sorry, I wasn't weepy.

Speaker 5:
[26:01] I'm totally going through menopause. And so I cry all the time.

Speaker 6:
[26:05] Me too.

Speaker 5:
[26:08] Oh my God. Thank you for sharing that.

Speaker 6:
[26:11] Oh, yeah.

Speaker 7:
[26:11] It's an intimate thing and I appreciate you sharing it.

Speaker 6:
[26:13] Thank you for reminding me of it.

Speaker 5:
[26:14] Yeah, that's beautiful and important. Final round, Ada.

Speaker 7:
[26:22] Okay.

Speaker 5:
[26:23] Three more cards. One, two, three. Pick a card one through three.

Speaker 6:
[26:29] Two. Two.

Speaker 5:
[26:33] Do you think there's more to reality than we can see or feel?

Speaker 6:
[26:39] 100,000 million percent. One gazillion percent. Yes. Yes, I absolutely think that. I think we, our perception, I mean, all reality is perception. All of our brains work so differently. I had the great pleasure of speaking with a neuroscientist a couple of weeks ago, Heather Berlin, and she was talking about just how the deeper and further she studies the brain, the more generous she is with others. Because our brains are so, we are wired so differently. We are all so individual and so unique, and the way we perceive reality, it is not the same. The fact that we can be in communion with folks, that we can be in community, in relationships and partnerships is amazing. And so I think that we just don't know anything. And one of my favorite things about being a poet is that again and again, you just get to say, we don't know anything. And I can be an expert in what? Like a language, a line break, a caesura. Sure, I know what a stanza is, I know the forms. But I have no wisdom and I love that.

Speaker 7:
[28:06] Oh, I don't think that's true.

Speaker 5:
[28:09] I think others would take issue with that.

Speaker 7:
[28:13] I mean, you know that's not true, Ada.

Speaker 5:
[28:16] Like you have wisdom. The thing you just told me about your body and an agency and how we can be enough, that is a wise thing.

Speaker 7:
[28:27] We all, you know we all hold wisdom.

Speaker 6:
[28:30] Yeah, I guess I don't mean I, yeah. I mean, there is a kind of wisdom in that. But I also feel like I really love the sort of beginner's mind, right? Like the idea of the more we know about anything, the more the unknown is real to us. And I love that. I mean, I feel like if anyone asks, if anyone says like, why do you write a poem? Almost always I say, mortality, because of mortality, because this is amazing that it is finite. And I would love to notice and hold as much as I can before I go. And I feel like as I've aged, I'm still really angry that death exists. But I am also more willing to accept that there may be more to this. And maybe the more is just that we're part of a planet. And how beautiful is that, that we get to be part of a tree, or we get to be part of the air, the ocean, the sand. I mean, we're always searching for meaning. And I love that. Someone asked me at a table, literally last week, they said, if you could know all the secrets to the universe, would you want to know? And I don't think I would.

Speaker 7:
[30:11] Yeah, no, me either.

Speaker 6:
[30:12] I don't think I would. I think it's one of the great gifts of being alive.

Speaker 7:
[30:23] We're done, we're done with the game.

Speaker 5:
[30:28] And I promised you a prize. I wish I had a piece of chocolate I could teleport to you right now. So the prize is a trip in our memory time machine to revisit one moment from your past. It's a moment you wouldn't change. You just want to spend a little more time there.

Speaker 7:
[30:50] Which moment do you choose?

Speaker 6:
[30:54] I think that I would want to go back to the moment when I was probably six or seven. I would go down to this creek that was across the street from my house called the Calabasas Creek. And it was the most quiet, most wondrous place I've ever been. And it still exists and it's still beautiful. But I remember feeling so small in that enormity of the creek bed and the lives of all the little things of that natural world. And I think now when I go back with my adult mind, I worry about it. I think about the protection of it. I think about creek restoration. I think about all of these things. And what I miss, I think, is that moment of just pure wonder without any of the worry.

Speaker 7:
[32:03] What does it sound like there?

Speaker 6:
[32:05] Well, it depends on what time of year. I would like to go back in the spring where it's still running. And the interesting thing about this particular creek is that it makes a wonderful little noise. There's a tiny little waterfall there, tiny, just a sort of a stone. But one of the things I loved about it is that there's a road right above it. And so you could hear the rush of traffic. And then it made the sound of the creek so much more precious.

Speaker 5:
[32:39] Ada Limón, she is the 24th United States Poet Laureate. Her latest project is a book of poems about the natural world called You Are Here. Ada, what a joy it was to have this conversation with you. Thank you so much for doing it.

Speaker 6:
[32:56] Thank you so much, Rachel. What a delight.

Speaker 4:
[33:00] This message comes from Rosetta Stone. Spring travel coming up. Rosetta Stone has been the trusted leader in language learning for over 30 years. Ready to start learning a new language this spring? Visit rosettastone.com/nprtoday.

Speaker 3:
[33:14] This message comes from Midi Health. Co-founders Dr. Kathleen Jordan and CEO Joanna Strober discuss why they started a virtual care platform for women in para menopause and menopause.

Speaker 9:
[33:26] The symptoms and experiences that women have in midlife, I think were underappreciated or possibly even trivialized. The changes of para menopause and menopause create a broad spectrum of symptoms and can actually lead to long-term health issues, but too few clinicians are trained in it.

Speaker 10:
[33:43] I also want to add, often the type of care that women are needing is very iterative. It requires trying different medications, learning about their body and learning how to take care of themselves. And so what we've tried to do at Midi Health is create a new type of care system that is responsive to women's needs and helps them take care of themselves and stay healthy instead of just treating disease.

Speaker 3:
[34:06] Midi Health, committed to helping women in midlife with para menopause and menopause care, accessible via telehealth visits. joinmidi.com