transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] Thrivent believes money is more than numbers. It's a way to care for the people, causes and community you love. That's why Thrivent brings together a unique combination of financial services and generosity programs, offering advice, investments and insurance to help you plan your finances while creating opportunities to give back along the way. Through generosity programs that offer resources to fund service projects or direct charitable funds, Thrivent makes it easier to turn your values into action and support what matters most to you. With more than 120 years of experience as a Fortune 500 company, Thrivent continues to serve individuals, families and communities across the country. To learn more, visit thrivent.com. Thrivent, where money means more. Saturday night on ABC, we'll have game four between Nicola Yoke, it's Jamal Murray and the Nuggets, and the Timberwolves 830 Eastern, 530 Pacific. The series tied at one, game of piece. Ernie, Kenny, Charles and Shaq will tip off our coverage at eight. They'll also be back at 11 Eastern to break down this game, and the other three that are on the schedule.

Speaker 2:
[01:03] The Knicks lead 9179 as we start the fourth quarter. They have been nearly unbeatable when they have a lead heading into the fourth.

Speaker 3:
[01:12] CJ. McCollum in his villain arc puts Atlanta up, Brunson to tie the game, and he does.

Speaker 4:
[01:18] Ice cold.

Speaker 3:
[01:20] Hawks looking to run. Johnson slams it home. Atlanta has its largest lead.

Speaker 5:
[01:25] You got to play better with the lead.

Speaker 6:
[01:27] That's twice in the fourth quarter, and that'll reach from another.

Speaker 3:
[01:29] Atlanta comes all the way back and ties the series.

Speaker 1:
[01:36] Welcome back to another fresh hour of First Take. Knicks and Hawks renewed their series with game three in Atlanta tonight. Here was Josh Hart and Mikkel Bridges after practice yesterday on the Knicks game two loss. Listen.

Speaker 7:
[01:51] That's the game we should have won. You know, watching the film, you realize, obviously, it reinforces that, and then, like I said, we got to make sure we're locked in the focus for a 4-48.

Speaker 6:
[02:03] You always want to, you know, get better in a win, but sometimes you need a loss to, you know, dive in on things that you was, you know, not doing well. And, you know, that's a good team, too. So it's not like it's going to be easy. You just got to learn from it and, you know, bring that fire to the next game.

Speaker 1:
[02:21] Kenny, the Jetsmith now joins us here on First Take. So maybe a wake up call for the Knicks in game two.

Speaker 8:
[02:26] Queens in the building. Queens in the building.

Speaker 5:
[02:28] Queens is, Queens get the money.

Speaker 4:
[02:31] I look, I like the color coordination. You matching your China in the back.

Speaker 5:
[02:36] Oh, yes, I did.

Speaker 4:
[02:37] Yes, I did.

Speaker 8:
[02:38] You got a fireplace last week, Shae. You got a fireplace last week.

Speaker 1:
[02:43] He's moving all over the place.

Speaker 5:
[02:45] You know, Stephen, this is multiple homes, so I got different places.

Speaker 8:
[02:49] I can relate. I can relate. I can relate.

Speaker 1:
[02:52] Let me get back to the task at hand. The Knicks' loss in game two will actually be a blessing in disguise.

Speaker 5:
[03:00] Uh, I don't know if any loss is a blessing. I think what you do is, when you're in a playoff situation, I think, you know, as Perk can attest, I don't know if you say, hey, a loss is great for us, but you also know that series can be long, and you're not going to beat most people 4-0, and so you're just trying to figure out how to get better each game. What is the adjustment we're going to make from each game? Sometimes, those adjustments come into wins, but the one thing about when you win a game, you feel you don't have to make an adjustment, and sometimes even in a win, the Knicks really had to make an adjustment, but they did not. So now they say, okay, we really have to make this adjustment that we didn't do before, and we have to understand that they have size and length on the perimeter and really attack us on the offensive end, and try to take advantage of some of our mismatches.

Speaker 4:
[03:55] No, it is. It is a blessing in disguise. You know why? Because it wakes you up and it pisses you off, because the film room, the energy in the film room is different, right? The vibes is different. The film that's brought up is different. Moments are highlighted. Like, if they don't lose that game, we don't highlight Jalen Brunson being picked on by CJ. McCullen and being the defensive liability and then him being held accountable that he need to pick his one-on-one defense up. One thing that I saw from game one after they won the game, and it pissed me off because I'm like, the Knicks is a team that's a legit title contender. I saw Carl Anthony Towns, he after the game, he was dabbing everybody up in the stands. It's a big celebration. And I'm saying, this is the first round of the playoffs, bro. This is what you supposed to do. Walk off the floor like this is a game. You just won a game at home, game one. You know what? You don't see Oklahoma City doing that. You don't see the Boston Celtics doing that. And so what happens is the plane ride, the mood on the plane ride, well, if you up too old, you may be on there, you might be playing cards, a little bourree or some guts, that energy change, right? And so all of a sudden, you come off pissed off and it bring you back to the moment. It bring you back to reality. It bring the coach to a level of accountability and say, you know what, I might need to play my double big line up a little bit more with Carl Anthony Towns and Mitchell Robertson. I might need to feed Carl Anthony Towns a little bit more. Because again, we wouldn't highlight, Kenny, that Carl Anthony Towns only had two field goal attempts in the fourth quarter.

Speaker 8:
[05:36] Well, let me say this and leave Kenny and Perk up on the screen when I say this, because I want to see their faces when I'm about to say, okay? You know, you bring up a valid point. And I remember it hawkins me back to the World Baseball Classic, when people were asking the question about them winning this stuff. And is it like tantamount to winning the World Series? And El Capitan, Derek Jeter calmed everybody's nerves when he said, well, those would be people who haven't won a World Series. They wouldn't know. And you're damn right, that's the truth. When you bring up Carl Anthony Towns, dapping up everybody like you want something, because guess what? You didn't. You don't know any better because you haven't won yet. Now, let's be very, very clear about that. I'm watching the New York Knicks squad right now, which I'm very, very disgusted by. And I don't know why the hell we saw sound from Josh Hart and Mikael Bridges. I'm going to be nice to Josh Hart. You understand what I'm saying? I'm not trying to upset the man. But Mikael Bridges, I don't care whether I upset him or not. I'm trying to light a fire in him. I'm not rooting against him. I'm rooting for him. And the games against the Atlanta Hawks this year, five games, the brothers averaged 10.5 points on 42% shooting and 30% from three-point range. How many first-round picks were giving up for him? That's six. Four unprotected. I am going to keep bringing this up. I'm not playing. This man, I need more from him. I don't give a damn what that more is. Figure it the hell out. Do something. But make sure you have an impact that contributes to winning because I'm not seeing it. That's number one. Number two, Mike Brown. Let me call this man out. Do you know that the New York Knicks were outscored by seven points in 11 minutes in game two, where both Jalen Brunson and Carl Anthony Towns on the bench together? Why the hell are the both of you on the bench together? Why? How come one of y'all ain't out there? These are Atlanta Hawks. Three of the five games you played against them this year came down to one possession games. Why the hell are both of them on the bench with a total of 11 minutes? Look at this right here. Check this out. During the regular season, New York Knicks played 610 garbage time minutes. I want to see Kenny Smith's face when I say this. I want to see Kenny Smith's face when I say this. 610 non-garbage time possessions with Townes and Brunson, both on the bench and the Knicks got outscored by 76 points in those minutes. That means that when they're both on the bench, it doesn't work. Why are they on the bench together against the Atlanta Hawks? I mean, these are the kind of things that I deduce. See, brilliance comes not just from intellect, but it comes from being smart enough to learn from intellectuals. See, I watch my man Kenny Smith. I watch my man Kenny Smith. I listen to my man Big Perk. Barclay, with all his mumbling and stumbling, makes all the sense in the world most of the time he's speaking. Shaq, even though I hardly understand what the hell his ass says sometimes, unless he's cracking jokes on me or Kenny or Chuck, the bottom line is he knows what the hell he's talking about as well.

Speaker 9:
[08:39] Okay.

Speaker 8:
[08:40] Inside the NBA crew, this is the kind of stuff that I'm going to need them to touch on, because damn it, damn it, it's not the time to be nice to the New York Knicks. You gotta get on them. You can't have this stuff, Kenny.

Speaker 9:
[08:57] You can't have this stuff.

Speaker 5:
[08:58] You're speaking without question from a passionate fan point of view.

Speaker 8:
[09:04] Yes.

Speaker 5:
[09:04] But that is the reason that you brought in Jose Alvarado to give Jalen Brunson some minutes because he has proven at times in the playoff, he can be disruptive. He can be different.

Speaker 8:
[09:18] My issue is with them on the bench together, Brunson and Catt on the bench together. At the same time, Kenny, that's all I'm saying, at the same time.

Speaker 5:
[09:25] But that is the reason because you're saying, okay, I could maybe suffice these minutes. He was wrong. Okay. Now, that's why we play seven. We're not in NCAA. We play seven games and we have an opportunity to correct what is there. I'm not sure of Perks Championship runs, but I've been blessed to be on two championship runs and two championship teams. We only won one series, four-zero. We're going to, you're going to have to beat people. You're going to have to understand and make adjustments. It's sustainability that makes you great. It's not that I can beat you every day.

Speaker 8:
[10:05] Let me ask you a question, Ken. Let me ask you a question. See, you from Beaumont, Texas. You understand? I got the Queen's got to ask this man this question. Queen's in the building. We got to ask this man this question. Kenny, does it not disturb you that what you see from the New York Knicks in terms of grit, instead of the first. I know the New York Knicks blew Game 1 against Indiana last year. That's how they lost the damn series because they blew that Game 1. I understand this stuff happens. But does it not concern you the apparent precipitous drop off in that grit, that grind, that fight that we saw in the New York Knicks over the last two or three years, and how on too many occasions this year, we're not seeing that. Does that not concern you?

Speaker 5:
[10:47] As a Knicks fan, I'm going to go back to being a fan then. So what would bother me is the fact that as a fan, I would always believe that the Knicks, when you say New York toughness, is that the perimeter was always the first line of defense. And McKell Bridges was brought in to be a key contributor in that defense. Josh Hart, key contributor. They got rid of Dee Vincenzo, who was a grit extender. I miss him. And so their grit in terms of stopping people to getting into the pain off the dribble was lackluster in game two. And, you know, CJ McCollum, as good as he is, his best years, honestly, we've seen. He is now on the tail end of his best years. So it's not the CJ McCollum we saw. He's been in the league for almost a decade or decade or more. So now this is not a guy who is, we would expect that to happen from Johnson. We would expect that to happen from Alexander. However, CJ McCollum is the guy who came in the middle of the season and not really was part of this transformation. And so that is what is surprising to me, is how easy he was able to get into the paint and get into his areas of the scoring. That concerns me more than anything. Who's going to take the CJ McCollum challenge now?

Speaker 4:
[12:18] Thank you. And that's the point. Now, Josh Hart, I got to give him a pass and give him his flowers. He has been doing his job.

Speaker 8:
[12:27] Yes, he has.

Speaker 4:
[12:27] His assignment has been Jalen Johnson. We knew that coming into the series. Jalen Johnson has struggled in these first two games. But Mikael Bridges was known two years ago as one of the best, if not best, like on the verge of being one of the better two-way players, but a hell of a defender on the perimeter. We can't just give OG. Ananobe a pass either, because he's known and valued as a two-way guy. At some point, yes, we could blame Mike Brown, but at some point, one of these guys got to step up and say, I got him. That's me. I want this smoke with CJ. Look, and credit to the Hawks because they're doing an outstanding job too. That thing is we're going to play with pace. We know we got a young team, we got to get out and run, and then they're doing another thing. This is where you want to see the adjustments real quick because they're putting Jalen Brunson in the screen and roll to get the switch.

Speaker 8:
[13:23] That's right.

Speaker 4:
[13:25] What is your adjustment going to be, Mike Brown? Is it going to be a short show or are you going to make him buckle down and get a stop? Jalen Brunson, my advice to you, Steph Curry graduated in that fourth NBA championship when he started to defend. You remember the Celtics were searching him out and he was locking up Al Horford and those big guys on the low post. That's the next step for Jalen Brunson.

Speaker 8:
[13:50] A couple of things. Number one, the New York Knicks players have to be held accountable for Mike Brown. They wanted him. If you didn't want Tom Thibodeau gone, he wouldn't have been gone. Let's just keep it a buck. Let's call it what it is. This ain't just about James Dolan. This ain't just about Leon Rose. Those players wanted a different flavor. Let's call it what it is. We ain't letting it off the hook. You wanted an easier path. You didn't want somebody as rugged and the curmudgeon type of guy that Tom Thibodeau could be. Well, you got what you wanted. What you're going to do about it. That's number one. Number two, Nikhil Alexander Walker. Averaging it was nine points and 25% shooting, but the brother made a big time three, plus he had three blocks, so he stepped up defensively. By the way, since game one, first quarter, Jaylen Brunson, 19 points, 73% shooting from the field. In the first quarter, in game one, since that time, Kenny, since that time, Kenny, all right, over the last seven quarters, Jaylen Brunson, 11 to 37, 30% from the field. Unacceptable, unacceptable. Now I know what the environment and ATL gonna be like, all right, cause they playing with house money. They ain't got nothing to lose, and we know Nick fans like to travel cause we look for excuses to get down to the ATL, all right, so cats gonna be there, all right? But the point is, the Atlanta Hawks fans are gonna be there too. They gonna be in the building. New York Knicks gotta win one of these games. They can't come back to New York down 3-1. They gotta handle their business.

Speaker 5:
[15:26] I have one thing for you, Stephen, and Perk. We talk about the deficiencies of the New York Knicks. Maybe we're seeing Oklahoma City 2.0, the start of that, in the Atlanta Hawks. Two, three years ago, when OKC was in this position and they were losing games, they lost in the playoffs and became a championship contender, and we were looking at Shae Gilder's Alexander going, man, and now maybe we're looking at Johnson going, he is that next type of guy that can bring this team. Maybe we're looking at the emergence of a team instead of the deficiencies of someone else.

Speaker 8:
[16:09] I am not saying that you're wrong. How could you betray me like this? How could you come on First Take to say this? You got inside the NBA coming up all week. You could have saved that commentary for then. You come on First Take to say that to break my heart.

Speaker 5:
[16:26] I'm just saying what I see.

Speaker 8:
[16:27] Like 10 in the morning. How could you do this to me?

Speaker 5:
[16:31] It looks very similar. Defensive minded, moved the basketball. Multiple guys, it's very similar to what the OKC looked like two or three years ago.

Speaker 1:
[16:42] Okay.

Speaker 8:
[16:43] I'm going to be watching every syllable that comes out of Kenny Smith's mouth for the rest of these playoffs. I'm not missing a syllable that I cannot believe, the blasphemy that is coming out of his mouth right now. I'm calling the family. I'm calling Vince. I'm calling the family.

Speaker 1:
[17:00] Game three tonight between the Knicks and the Hawks is in Atlanta. They got to find a way to stop CJ McCollum. He has 58 points so far in this series. Thank you, Kenny. Coming up here, Nicole Yonkis and the Nuggets lost game two to the Wolves. The real insult came after. Well, some post-game comments unlocked the three-time MVP. They better hope not. Plus, one of the great receiving duos in the NFL could be broken up soon. By all eyes, need to be on the Cowboys tonight in the NFL Draft. That's next.

Speaker 10:
[17:31] ESPN's Draft Takeover is powered by Shopify.

Speaker 1:
[17:45] Thrivent believes money is more than numbers. It's a way to care for the people, causes and community you love. That's why Thrivent brings together a unique combination of financial services and generosity programs, offering advice, investments and insurance to help you plan your finances while creating opportunities to give back along the way. Through generosity programs that offer resources to fund service projects or direct charitable funds, Thrivent makes it easier to turn your values into action and support what matters most to you. With more than 120 years of experience as a Fortune 500 company, Thrivent continues to serve individuals, families and communities across the country. To learn more, visit thrivent.com. Thrivent, where money means more.

Speaker 11:
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Speaker 1:
[18:59] Welcome back to First Take. It's time for our Draft Kings First Call Parlay. We've got three picks for you tonight, all from game three between the Nuggets and the Timberwolves perk. You got Jamal Murray scoring 25 or more points.

Speaker 4:
[19:11] Why? I just got that feeling. I mean, Jay McDaniels called them out defensively. You know how you substitute that? You go out and you get buckets. Jamal Murray, that two-man game with him and Yokel, she's going to add that midi all game and he's going to get his.

Speaker 1:
[19:25] Okay, Anthony Edwards, questionable, but perk. You don't see that stopping him from scoring 20 to nine, huh?

Speaker 4:
[19:31] No, I thought I had to look at that line again because I thought he was on many restrictions or something. He's going to get that in his sleep. You talk about poking the bat with Jay McDaniel, comments, probably poking it with Jokic, but he got a bat on the other side. Anthony Edwards, he's going to have a hell of a night at the crib.

Speaker 1:
[19:47] All right, I expect Nikola Jokic to drop a triple double because why? He's had 13 in his career when playing the Timberwolves. I believe that's the second most against any franchise. In the playoffs, he's had 22 overall. He's a walking triple double. This feels like a sure bet to me. So now we focus in on Nuggets Timberwolves. He's certainly developed into this heated rivalry over the past couple of years. Jaden McDaniels threw more fuel on the fire after game two. Listen to this.

Speaker 12:
[20:15] What are some of the keys, offensive, to really get them or what?

Speaker 13:
[20:19] Go out, Jokic, Jamal, all the bad defenders, Tim Hardaway, Cam Johnson, Aaron Gordon, the whole team, just go at them.

Speaker 12:
[20:31] They're all bad.

Speaker 13:
[20:31] Yeah, they're all bad defenders.

Speaker 1:
[20:34] Well, we heard those comments and so did Denver. They did not take those comments lightly and they responded to McDaniels with some words of their own after practice yesterday.

Speaker 14:
[20:44] They've just been saying a lot, all season, all series.

Speaker 13:
[20:46] So let them talk.

Speaker 14:
[20:49] Let them get everything they want off their chest.

Speaker 13:
[20:51] We're cool with it.

Speaker 15:
[20:52] I think narrative is really interesting too. You hear so many things and we've gotten really lazy in society. What's our defensive rating in this series? Through two games? 109. 109? How is that? That's fair.

Speaker 13:
[21:06] Six best in the plus.

Speaker 15:
[21:07] Six best in the plus?

Speaker 13:
[21:10] Okay.

Speaker 15:
[21:11] Next.

Speaker 1:
[21:13] Oh, receipts. Receipts with the stats.

Speaker 4:
[21:17] But what narrative? It didn't come from us. It came from your opponent. That's how he felt. That came from our authentic place. That came from a guy that you got to see between the lines. It ain't us making up the narrative. He felt that way. He basically told you the game plan. The game plan is that we're going to attack Jokic, Murray, and all the rest of the bad defenders. And let's just keep it real. That is the Achilles Hills of the Nuggets. They lack perimeter defense outside of Aaron Gordon, and they have zero rim protection. That's why Anthony Edwards was laying the damn ball up all night long in game two. Jokic is not a shot blocker, Valer Tunis is not a shot blocker, Jay McDaniels ain't say nothing wrong. That is the game plan, and that's how he feels, and that's how the Minnesota Timberwolves feel.

Speaker 1:
[22:06] But no doubt he definitely lit a fire a little bit under Denver. And so how do we expect them to respond tonight to the trash talk and the fact that no one's expecting them defensively. Kenny, what do you think?

Speaker 5:
[22:18] Well, first of all, I think there are guys who have put on the championship teams for that role. Kendrick Perkins was one of those guys to be put on that in that role. So Brown, Braun, they are all put on the role. Gordon, that is their role. We are supposed to lock up defensively so we can have our best player in the world, Jokic, be Jokic, and does not have to expend energy on every single possession. So yes, Valen Chunis, all of those guys are brought in to subsidize what Jokic does so much and his responsibilities on the offensive end as well as Murray. So there's nothing different. There's always guys that do that on championship teams, and they're also guys that possibly or that take a heavier load offensively. Now, also, McDaniels is going to have to back it up offensively. If you're saying they're weak defenders and you come out with eight points the next game, you're saying in the message that they locked you up. So he's also put some pressure on himself as well.

Speaker 8:
[23:27] Let me say something. You can leave Kenny and Perk up again because I want to look at them while I'm saying this. This is the kind of thing that bothers me. You see, I wasn't gifted enough to be a player like these guys were. But here's where Stephen A has been incredibly gifted. Dress talk. Chronicling the sports world. I've been a journalist for over 30 years. When I was in college, keep in mind, Clarence Big House Games was my coach. The great late John McClendon, who helped integrate the sport of basketball was a mentor. These were mentors of mine who taught me to game. How did I start off my career covering sports? I covered John Cheney at Temple, and then I covered Larry Brown at Philadelphia. How many people have had that level of basketball education? I've had coaches look at me and say, we didn't want this guy because of this personality, we wanted this guy because of his worth, we didn't want this guy because he backed down from challenges instead of embracing it, we didn't want this guy because he was too hot tempered, and you know what, he might get his ass thrown out of a game when we don't need him. It's all of these things that come with it. When I heard Coach Adelman's response, you know what I wanted him? I wanted him suspended by the Denver Nuggets organization for a week. That was what I wanted. Let me tell you why. Let me tell you why. Because I want you to embrace it. Yes. I want you to embrace it. What? All right, your defensive rating is 109.3, ranked seventh out of the 16 teams in the playoffs. It was 21 throughout the season. You were not a stout defensive team. All right, fine. But Shae, they will tell you this. If I don't give a damn who you are, you could be the biggest scrub as a defensive player. If you're on the basketball court and somebody mentions you by name about what you can't do, you fired up. I'm sitting there, I'm looking at Aaron Gordon. Brother, I don't care. I'm looking at McDaniels and he's talking what he's talking. Cam Johnson, they just been saying a lot. Where is the, okay, we'll see. Where is the Michael Jordan at a press conference where he's shrugging it off and then he stops and looks at the media. What did he say again? Tell me exactly what he said again. Okay. Where's the Kobe? Remember, you asked for this. Where's those guys at? You understand what I'm saying? This is basketball. We ain't talking about you.

Speaker 5:
[26:04] Well, I'm not talking about Michael Jordan. You're looking for Michael Jordan with the bat. He had the bat in the video and he's like, yeah, every man can talk.

Speaker 8:
[26:14] Where's the Charles? Hey, where's the Charles Barkley that's suddenly elbowing you in your damn chest because you from Angola and you just some small guy that's happy to be there and he don't give a damn because he would have let you know, I don't like you anyway until I kick your ass and then I like you after the game. I mean, the point that I'm trying to make to you is that these cats who love the game of basketball, who play it on an elite level or coach it on an elite level, the moment arrives and then you don't want it like that. No, that's what we want. We want to see. When McDaniel said that, I was smiling because I was saying to myself, what you going to do about that Denver?

Speaker 11:
[26:51] Did you hear what he said about y'all? What are you going to do?

Speaker 8:
[26:55] This is what's missing sometimes. Do you think you could say that to Ant-Man and he's going to do nothing? Right. Victor Wimbayana just got into this league three years ago. You think you could say something like that about him and he ain't going to do anything? Well, he's doing some talking. I know that. Do you think you could say something like that about Jalen Brown or Shae Gill just going to sit up there and smile and shrug it off until tip-off arrives? And then he going to be like, what you say? What did you think you were saying? That is basketball. This is the part that I'm talking about right here. This is the part where you ain't talking about fisticuffs, we talk about fighting, we talk about somebody that's coming out there. And all of a sudden, you know what? Guess what? It's a switch that comes up. And now it's you again. It's it's McDan. You're looking for somebody. If you Jamal Murray and them, you know what you want to do? You want to call a switch. So McDan uses guarding you. You yoke it, he guarded you. You, Amory Gordy, he guarded you. Yeah. Now what the hell were you saying? And I'm attacking the basket and going right in. And then we got an announcers like Mike Breen and others say, Yeah, McDaniels did say that. That's all the theater. It's like these guys want to rob you of the theater that makes the sport what it is. It ain't just watching you score dunk or whatever. It's the talk. It's the chirping. It's the attitude that comes with it. And when I see cat shine away from that, they're not embracing the theater and what comes with great basketball competition. That's what I'm saying, Kenny. That's what I'm saying, Perk.

Speaker 4:
[28:30] So quick two things. Real quick. One, Jay McDaniels has been doing an outstanding job guarding Murray, right, when he's the primary defender. Number two, Jay McDaniels did something dumb in game one, but he shoved Jokic and got a dumb technical. So he wants this smoke.

Speaker 8:
[28:48] He wants it.

Speaker 4:
[28:48] I'm just letting you know.

Speaker 8:
[28:50] And he wants to answer the question.

Speaker 5:
[28:51] The last thing about that is from a team standpoint, I was thinking what you said if you were in a locker room. First thing, I would have been like, yo, did this dude have 40? He called us bad defenders. He had 40 on us? Where was he scoring? That would have been the first question. And so I would say, let's see his offense. I wouldn't even talk about my D. I would like, let's see his offense. Let's see him get 30 on us tonight. If he's that good, if we're that bad of defenders, let's see him get 30.

Speaker 8:
[29:22] It's a slight difference. I don't disagree with you, Kenny. I want that too. But if he's guarding me, I also want to expose what he's going to do defensively. You talking about us defensively, I'm going to bust your ass. That's what I'm going to do.

Speaker 3:
[29:39] Give me the ball.

Speaker 8:
[29:40] When he's on me, I'm begging for it. Let's go. And I'm not saying McDaniels can't handle it. I'm not disrespecting McDaniels at all because I know the brother can defend. We know that's why he's there. He ain't there for his offense. He's there because of what he can do defensively. So he has a right to say it. I'm just simply saying you can expose him at his strength. Because remember, he ain't the kind of cat that's going to drop 25 or 30 on you. He's the kind of cat that capable of shutting you down. Well, what if he can shut you down? What if his defense ends up being the problem? Then that's more of an embarrassment to him. That's how you really get him. That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 1:
[30:16] This was already a rivalry, and now it's just amped up a little bit. Let's recap really quickly here. We're going to go with Jamal Murray to have 25 plus points. Anthony Edwards to have 20 plus points, and then Yoke gets to drop a triple double. The odds of this same game, Parlay, are currently plus 234 on draft.

Speaker 8:
[30:31] Murray's showing up tonight, I promise you that.

Speaker 1:
[30:33] It's a sure bet. Go ahead, go do it. All right, we got more First Take coming up after this. The Cowboys are on the clock as the NFL Draft ramps up in just a couple of hours. This draft could be especially imperative for one Dak Prescott. What are they going to do? We'll tell you next.

Speaker 12:
[30:52] On Draft King's Sportsbook, all customers can get a profit boost every day of the NBA playoffs. Download the app and use promo code First Take when you sign up.

Speaker 1:
[31:09] This message is brought to you by Apple Pay. Checking out online, Apple Pay makes it simple. Apple Pay is accepted on millions of websites and apps and counting. Just look for the Apple Pay button almost anywhere you do your online shopping. When you tap the Apple Pay button to check out, you don't have to worry about filling out any forms with your shipping address or your payment method. Instead, use your pre-saved information and check out in seconds. Need to make a change? You can easily review and change your card information and shipping details right on the payment sheet. Once you're ready, just double-click the side button, authenticate your purchase with Face ID, and you're done. Whether you're shopping online for everyday needs or treating yourself, skip the hassle. Shop with Apple Pay, terms do apply. As you know, managing maintenance, repair and operations is never easy, but for the ones who always rise to the challenge, Grainger has your back. From professional-grade products, you can count on to fast, dependable delivery. They're there to help you keep things running smoothly. Plus, their technical product specialists are here to help answer your toughest questions. And because Grainger knows safety is always a priority, they're committed to being your partner in protecting both your people and your facilities. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. This year's NFL Draft is in Pittsburgh. The three-day event begins tonight at Eastern Five Pacific. We'll have every pick once again on ESPN, along with our usual expert analysis. It's also available on the NFL Network. And as always, ABC's coverage focuses on the prospect's journey to the draft. To a team with plenty at stake tonight, the Cowboys. They hold two picks in the first round. The Cowboys have no plans to pursue a long-term deal with franchise-tagged wide receiver George Pickens after he posted a career year. Dallas placed a non-exclusive $27.3 million franchise-tag on Pickens in March that he still has not signed. Here's Executive Vice President Stephen Jones on the Pickens contract dilemma.

Speaker 14:
[33:16] I mean, let's start with the fact it's not easy, you know, having two receivers being paid top of the market. I mean, that's obviously a stretch, especially when you have other great players on your team, a quarterback that's been here, being the highest paid player in this league for many years now. Certainly, that's part of it. The other thing is the newness of George being here. And I think George has just done an amazing job. I mean, he's exceeded all expectations, I think, anybody, or we wouldn't have gotten him for a third round pick. So, that's a plus. And, you know, a lot of these things, they make their way toward a long-term deal. But that's the biggest part of it, between the business and the newness of it. I think that's a big part of it.

Speaker 1:
[34:04] All right, so putting the clamps on the fact that they are not going to pursue a long-term deal with George Pickens. We have Mina and RC back here with us. So with all this news going on with Pickens, Ryan, what do you think the Cowboys should do tonight?

Speaker 16:
[34:18] Well, first off, like, God bless the Jones family. They just keep giving you content even when they don't need to give it to you. Stephen Jones didn't have to announce to the world that they weren't trying to do a deal with George Pickens. They could have just let George Pickens play under the franchise tag. I mean, they out here like Sway Lee. Talk about, I mean, listen, if you in a relationship, you don't go tell the world, yeah, like, I like her, but I ain't finna marry her. There's something about George Pickens and being within that locker room that they are saying, okay, he has to go prove it again. He was the best wide receiver on this team last year. So what they're telling me, at least in my mind, is we're going to draft a wide receiver if Jordan Tyson is there at number 12. And if we draft a wide receiver at number 12, what we're hoping is someone was sitting at home last year, watching the film of George Pickens play on the level of Jamar Chase, play on the level of Adjusting Jefferson. And they're going to be willing to give us a draft pick, whether it be in this draft or the next draft, that we can now continue to build a team with. But to me, when you put this news out there, there are teams who know that maybe if a Sonny Stiles fall, or maybe if an Arville Reese falls, you're not going to put together a package to move up and get them. And hell, if you want to make a big splash, let's say Jeremiah Love gets past number five and you think, let's just add another dynamic player because we might not have George Pickens. You're not even trying to do that. And so to me, to let this information get out is to say that we want to move George Pickens within this draft and they're going to have to now focus and draft accordingly. But to me, you do not reach. If a wide receiver falls to you at 12, namely Jordan Tyson, I believe you make that move. If not, you draft the best player available for a defense that needs a ton of work.

Speaker 1:
[36:18] Mina?

Speaker 17:
[36:20] I don't think that the Jones family had to do a presser to get the word out. I mean, their phones work, right? They know the other owners and GMs in the league. This to me, I felt like they were pre-justifying to their fan base, what might happen in this draft, which is the possibility they might take a receiver and look to trade Pickens. If they do that, if they got Jordan Tyson and they got a significant draft pick for Pickens, honestly, I would praise them. That would be good business on their part. As far as those two picks go, though, there are a lot of needs on defense with this team. We talk about this, really, it's been a few years now, but they could go edge, they could go linebacker, they could go safety, they could go corner. Yes, I am naming every single position on defense because they need all of them. So I do think that if you're Dallas, you want to consider holding on to those picks. Possibly, I would consider moving up for Arville Reese, but that's it.

Speaker 8:
[37:13] Here's the deal, we're talking about the Cowboys here. Understand that first of all, a couple of things, RC is phenomenal. There's so much when it comes to football. Singing is not your gift, my brother. It just isn't. Just want to get that out of the way.

Speaker 16:
[37:27] I was just doing the hook, Stephen A.

Speaker 8:
[37:28] I understand, but I'm here for you. I'm here for you, my brother. I'm here for you. We all have a gift, that ain't yours. Okay, let's get that out of the way. Now that we've said that, let's say this. Okay, like Mina said, they need everything on defense. They need an edge rusher, right? They need a linebacker. They need a cornerback. We know they have a multitude of needs, right? Here's my problem with the Dallas Cowboys. They're so interested in the damn headlines. They're so interested in the damn sizzle. They never realized the rippling effect it has on the franchise. You've got a quarterback that's been on the record saying, he wants George Pickens back. You got a guy in CD Lamb that says, he wants his teammate back, all right? You got this stuff. Now that doesn't mean that you make those decisions based on what players want, but if you got high end producers on the offensive side of the ball and you know that you've developed that kind of chemistry and you're clicking, you certainly don't want to get in the way of that. And if you're going to get in the way of that, then you handle it differently. You don't handle it in similar fashion to what you did with Micah Parsons because before long, stuff gets in the way. Like for example, when you made your trades, when you made your trades mid season, had you done it a couple of weeks earlier, you might have had a shot at making the playoffs, but you're weighted. And so I just look at them and I just say to myself, okay, if you're going to do something, do it. You want to draft a wide receiver, fine. You want to use these two picks on the defensive player, fine. But what you do is you go ahead after franchise tagging George Pickens, you move on from him. Why? Because you know you don't want that brother in your locker room because of the way you handle it, how salty is going to be, the likelihood of him being on the football field making business decisions because he's got a long term deal that he's aspiring for. So there's certain things that he would do on the football field that he may not do this year that he was willing to do last year. All of these things play a role. And Jerry Jones and Stephen Jones never seem to think about that nearly as much as they think about these press conferences that generate headlines that make them the center of attention, which is I'm not telling you anything I haven't told them to their face. It's what they do, but they're going to do it anyway. Period. All right.

Speaker 1:
[39:28] We'll see what happens tonight. Again, the Cowboys have two picks in the first round. Enjoy, Mina and Ryan. Thank you.

Speaker 8:
[39:33] Enjoy Pittsburgh in a nice weather, y'all.

Speaker 1:
[39:36] Coming up, we are in the middle of the NBA Playoffs, and Kenny Smith, you remember, he won back-to-back titles in Houston. Does the former Rocket star think LeBron has been that good, or his team has been that bad? We'll ask Max.

Speaker 11:
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Speaker 1:
[40:30] Here is our week five UFO match up. Saturday night, we have the St. Louis Battle Hawks and Orlando Storm at 7 Eastern on ESPN. Then Sunday afternoon, our ABC double header is Columbus Aviators, Houston Gamblers at noon Eastern, and then Louisville Kings and Dallas Renegades at 3 Eastern. Let's get to a quick take here. Alabama has reached a new seven-year contract with Kalen DeBoer that will pay him 12.5 million per season. There was a time earlier we were thinking DeBoer maybe would be in the mix at Michigan, etc. What is your reaction to now this extension, Stephen A.?

Speaker 8:
[41:05] I'm not moved. I'm certainly not failing to acknowledge that he's a good coach, that he has succeeded in most places that he has been. But I was spoiled by Nick Saban, and I know everybody can't be Nick Saban, but you didn't have to fall off and lose as many games in your two seasons in Alabama, then he lost in his last four years at Alabama combined. It has been a precipitous drop-off. They had a lot of issues there last year. Cats can't catch, can't run, can't hold on to the football, can't block, can't defend. And to give him this lengthy seven-year extension, I'm not saying that he didn't deserve an extension, but this amount of faith, I'm sorry, I'm not sold. I'm really not sold.

Speaker 1:
[41:51] I would assume that this had a lot to do with his name circulating in some of the jobs in Michigan as I brought it up.

Speaker 8:
[41:58] Let him go then. Let him go then.

Speaker 1:
[41:59] But nonetheless, he's not going.

Speaker 8:
[42:00] There's plenty of coaches that you can find that can lose four games in a year at Alabama. There's plenty.

Speaker 1:
[42:06] Coming up, Kenny Smith, one back-to-back titles in Houston. Does the former Rocket star think LeBron has been really good or his team has just been really bad? We'll ask him next.

Speaker 9:
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Speaker 1:
[43:07] LeBron James and the Lakers took a commanding 2-0 series lead over the Rockets on Tuesday. James has looked like the king against the Rockets so far in this series. He's recorded a double-double in game one, scored 28 in game two to help propel the Lakers to that 2-0 series lead. This is the 25th time a LeBron James team has taken a 2-0 series lead. His team has won all 24 previous series. We now have Kenny the Jetsmith back with us. Are you encouraged by the Lakers or discouraged by the Rockets, Kenny?

Speaker 5:
[43:38] Well, I would say encouraged by the Lakers because when you have a basketball team that you say you have an A, B and C option and Luka Dantic was A. You had Austin Rees at B and LeBron James was at C. Now your C option is leading guys who are probably were just space guys who created space for you. Luke Canaris, Marcus Smart and Deandre Ayton have really played played exceptionally well while the C option is leading. And I will say this in a you talked about me being blasphemous earlier about talking about the Knicks, but LeBron James has moved a slight bit closer to the legacy of Michael Jordan in my mind because this is incredible that a guy who's 41 years old is leading 18 this way. Because if I was 25 years old and 40 year old walked into the park, I would be like, oh, this is an easy win today because he cannot sustain the type of effort that he would need. But he is making three guys who were really just thought of to space the floor, mark and defend. Marcus Mark come and defend, Luke Kennard space the floor, and Deandre Remrun, he has made them prominent offensive threats right now, which is incredible.

Speaker 8:
[45:04] We're running out of time, Kenny. I'll say this to you. Shockingly, I'm glad you're sitting down. I agree with you. He's moving closer to that GOAT status. I agree with you because I think what he's done is phenomenal. To be on the Mount Rushmore of basketball is one of the top four players in the history of basketball and to be deferential to Austin Reeves and Luka Dantjes throughout the year. To play all five positions, even the center at one point in time. To triple double one minute, 30 piece another minute, doing whatever it takes to win. You can't say enough about LeBron James has been absolutely phenomenal. But the answer to this question is the disappointment in the Houston Rockets. I mean, you're 10 for 34, that's 29 percent on wide open threes in this series. You work all year knowing you had lost to Fred Van Vliet. You never went out and got a point guard. You got Kevin Durant having nothing for you in the second half. This ain't Chopped Liver, this is KD Trey. This is one of the greatest snipers in the history of basketball. What the hell is going on? So you're looking at the Houston Rockets right now, coached by the great Eme Udoka, who's being out coached by JJ Reddick at this particular moment in time, because JJ Reddick is finding switches and solutions and stuff like that, trying to make an adjustments, and Houston seems ill-equipped to do anything. What is Reed Shepherd, one of your best shooters, doing on the bench, even though he's not a great point guard? What is he doing on the bench for a chunk of time, instead of when you need shooters out there? There's a lot of questions about Houston right now. They're not looking good. They're not looking impressive. And if the Houston Rockets lose this series without Luka and without AR, that is an ultimate indictment against KD Trey, Kevin Durant. No doubt about it.

Speaker 1:
[46:41] No excuse. We don't even know if he's at 100%. We'll see that tomorrow. We'll see y'all here on First Take tomorrow.

Speaker 18:
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