transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] That's where I met Guy, I met Rodney and Emmylou and all those folks, and really changed everything in a big way for me. We opened for Kiss. I didn't really take my pants down, but I did flip them off and bend over, and he came barging in the dressing room, he looks at me and goes, who are you? Harlan Howard pulled me aside. I turned down a job with Dire Straits. First check for when I call your name came, and I went, oh my God, I haven't made this much in my whole life. He says, sweet pea, he says, you like ravioli?

Speaker 2:
[00:35] All right, we're in here for another real special episode of Drifting Cowboy Podcast, because we're in here with a legend, and by all accounts of the word. Mr. Vince Gill, Vince, thank you for welcoming us into your beautiful home.

Speaker 1:
[00:48] Well, thanks for being patient, and waiting on me to figure out a good time to get to do this, so it finally worked out.

Speaker 2:
[00:55] I believe you've got to be the busiest man in country music, so.

Speaker 1:
[00:59] Just busy.

Speaker 2:
[01:02] All over the world, all over, back and forth, the Las Vegas. Yeah, but thank you again for doing this, and you just got an incredibly beautiful house and studio, and all these guitars are just so great.

Speaker 1:
[01:15] Well, it's a big love of mine. I've been picking them up my whole life, and I don't have boats, I don't have cars, I don't have other houses anywhere else. I just like to find old instruments that have a story. You know, so many of these cool thing about these guitars is the history that they have, where they might have been and what they might have played on, and who had them, who owned them, how I got them, and it's just a blast for me, you know, going through these old guitars.

Speaker 2:
[01:41] What's your favorite backstory on a guitar that you have?

Speaker 1:
[01:45] Oh God, there's a bunch, there's a bunch. The first one I ever bought with my own money, I was 18 years old, I'd moved away from home, from Oklahoma City, and I was gonna move to Louisville, Kentucky and play in a bluegrass band called the Bluegrass Alliance. And I got up there and we were playing a festival, I hadn't been up there very long. I found this old pre-war Martin D-28, it was made in 1942. And this guy had it for sale at a festival, had a big sign on the side of the case, he said, pre-war D-28 for sale, $2,500. That was 1975, that might as well have said $2.5 million to me. But I said, Mr, can I see that guitar? And he said, can you afford it? And I said, probably not, probably not, but I'd sure love to see it. I pulled it out, it was in beautiful condition and looked brand new. And I played it and I said, man, I have to have, I have to find a way to get this. And I said, I had a newer guitar, newer Martin. I said, would you consider a trade? And he said, well, no, no, I wouldn't. Said, I'll do a trade and some money. So I traded in my guitar and 1,650 bucks, wrote him a check. And that was all the money I had to my name. And my rent was only $15 a month. So I knew I could swing that pretty easily. And the gig I had paid a couple hundred bucks a week when we worked. And I said, I'm going to take a flyer on this guitar and buy it. And I was broke. I was dead broke. Had no money, but I had this great instrument. And now 51 years later, I still have it.

Speaker 2:
[03:17] Wow. You have a little Jimmy Dickens guitar player from the 50s.

Speaker 1:
[03:22] Yeah, I do. A fellow named Jabbo Arrington. Another great story. You know, the stories are kind of cooler than the guitars sometimes. And Jabbo was Jimmy's first guitar player when he came to the Opry in 48. And this guitar was made in 1949 or 1950. So right around when the first Fenders were made, this Fender broadcaster was Jabbo's. And he played it with Jimmy on the Opry. And his family tracked me down. And Jabbo had passed away back then, really young. And his family found me and said, we have an old guitar you might be interested in that was Jabbo's. And I said, man, I'd love to see it and be interested in. So they came to the Opry to meet me there. And I was playing that night and Jimmy was still alive. And so I bought the guitar and they told me, they said, our dream is to see it played on the Opry one more time. I said, well, let me see if I can make that work for you. So I went to Jimmy and I said, can I play with you tonight? And he said, how come? And I said, well, I just bought Jabbo's guitar that he used to play when he played with you. He said, you bought Jabbo's guitar? And I said, yes, sir. He goes, I want that guitar. I said, OK. I said, you can have it. This is what I paid for it. If you'll pay me that, I'll give it to you. And I told him what I paid for it. And he goes, I don't want it that bad. It was a lot of money. And so I went and played it with Jimmy. And I had a really sweet moment with their family there over there crying, watching Jabbo's guitar get played with Jimmy again all those years later. And so then, after Jimmy passed, they asked me to sing Go Rest High at his memorial. And so I knew I had to play it on Jabbo's guitar. So I took that guitar out there and I told the story before I sang. And I said, this is really a special moment. This was the guitar that brought Jimmy to the Opry when he first came here. Jabbo was his first league guitar player. I figured it ought to be the guitar that takes him out of here at the end of the service. And it was this beautiful emotional moment and very moving. And I got home and the phone rang. I picked up the phone and said, Vince, it's Murl Haggard. I said, yes, sir. What can I do for you, sir? He was my all time hero. And he said, I just watched what you did for Jimmy. So that's one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen. He said, I can't quit crying. Wow. And he said, I don't cry. He said, you hear me? He said, I don't cry. Yeah. It's okay. All right. He said, that was just beautiful what you did for Jimmy. I said, well, thanks. And he said, I want that guitar. I said, well, you can't have it either. So you can borrow it anytime you want, but he never did. But, you know, just those kinds of stories, they connect you in a way that just a relationship doesn't.

Speaker 2:
[06:12] Right.

Speaker 1:
[06:13] You know, and anytime I had a chance to rub elbows with the people that I admired so much it was quite a gift.

Speaker 2:
[06:21] Yeah. Yeah. I was telling you as I was setting up, you know, how I wish I could have got here earlier and been around guys like Jones and them. Jimmy Dickens, he seemed like a character.

Speaker 1:
[06:31] Oh yeah.

Speaker 2:
[06:32] What was he like?

Speaker 1:
[06:33] He was a blast. You know, he was always encouraging. That's what I admired most about him. He was always on the side, cheering on the young kids, the ones that were coming up and supportive and always saying kind things. And I was crazy about him. And his connection to me was really deep because of my father. When I first started playing at the Opry, my dad came to the Opry one time and he asked me, he says, would you introduce me to Jimmy Dickens? I said, of course. So I introduced him and my dad had a conversation with Jimmy. And he asked him, he said, do you know where I could find a copy of Plain Old Country Boy? And he said, I've looked in every record store where I live and I can't even come close to finding a copy of it. And Jimmy said, well, give me your address and I'll send you one.

Speaker 2:
[07:24] Oh, wow.

Speaker 1:
[07:24] So he sent him a 45 of Plain Old Country Boy. And I never knew the connection. Then at my dad's service at the funeral, the first song I played when I got up there to start the funeral was Plain Old Country Boy. And I asked his brother to get up and speak. And his brother got up there and he was kind of bewildered looking and he said to me, so what on earth possessed you to play that song? I said, well, it just reminded me of a story when dad met Jimmy for the first time. He told him how much he liked that record and couldn't find a copy and he sent it to him. He says, what you don't know, is that's the first record we ever got as little boys. Wow. So these ways that we all connect and continue to connect and find different ways to discover how deep all this really runs, it's magical. Yeah, it is. It's really something. And there's a whole lot of my life, I feel like, with my heroes, they were my father's heroes, my mother's heroes. And so through my knowing about them, through my parents' love for them, it just keeps the circle going. It kind of keeps us all connected in a really beautiful way. I always had a tremendous amount of respect for my elders, the people that came before me and taught me how to do this.

Speaker 2:
[08:47] Yeah. Well, speaking of your dad and your mom, they were both musically inclined folks. And I'm assuming that's where you got your love for music from.

Speaker 1:
[08:55] I think so. My dad played, you know, I thought the old man was Chad Atkins and Earl Scruggs all rolled up into one dad, but it turns out he wasn't that good. He was just average, you know, and mom could play the harmonica for a couple songs and she'd run out of breath. And my dad's brother played, my dad's mother played the piano really well, played in church. And so I don't ever remember a time when I wasn't beaten on a guitar. You know, that guitar sitting right there in front of you is probably the first guitar I ever. Drug around and beat on. And the strap for it is made out of a lampshade chord and something for the blinds, you know, in the windows or something like that. And I dragged that thing with me everywhere I went. My mom has a picture of me when I was about a year and a half sleeping face down on a couch with my arm around that guitar right there. And sadly in the picture I was wearing a dress, but that's another podcast.

Speaker 2:
[09:56] That was you getting ready for the infamous Cherry Bombs.

Speaker 1:
[09:59] Amen. Yeah. Oh man, what a memory.

Speaker 2:
[10:05] Did your dad or mom, did they play publicly any or was it just at home?

Speaker 1:
[10:11] I wouldn't say publicly. It was more centered around a function of not where they would be a band for hire per day, but there was a little town in Oklahoma called Preg, Oklahoma, and they had a thing they did every summer called the Kolache Festival. And my dad had a friend named JB White and his two sons, Molly and Terry, and Mr. Wolf played drums. And I sat on a hay bale and played my little four string tenor guitar and chopped rhythm. And that was one of the first memories I ever have of me playing anywhere. It was just for a parade down Main Street of Bragg, Oklahoma.

Speaker 2:
[10:50] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[10:51] But yeah, it just, those memories, they're deep, you know. And once my dad was going to do a tribute to Hee Haw, it is a high school reunion. And so I was a big giant Buck Owens fan and Don Rich fan who played with Buck and more mesmerized by Don Rich than just about anybody. And everybody in their class was going to play a character from Hee Haw. And my dad was going to be Roy Clark because he played the banjo. So I went to my dad and I said, can I be in your show? And he said, well, what would you do? And I said, well, I could be Don Rich and I could play Buckaroo. And he let me, you know. And some of those earliest days, you know, just encouragement is a, man, is it a beautiful gift to give to a kid. Yeah, just to encourage him and cheer him on a little bit and give him a little hope. And it goes a long way.

Speaker 2:
[11:48] Yeah. Yeah. So you were bit by the music bug.

Speaker 1:
[11:51] Forever.

Speaker 2:
[11:52] Early age.

Speaker 1:
[11:52] Yeah. The whole, the whole, the whole dance. I've been, I've been loving music.

Speaker 2:
[11:58] And your mom and dad did encourage you the whole time. They never discouraged you.

Speaker 1:
[12:02] No, I never got that, that kind of, when you're going to get a real job, get an education, all that stuff. My mom said something to me. Well, not to me, but to an interviewer one time that I thought was so profound and beautiful. This tells you exactly who she is. You know, I didn't go to college. I just took off, started playing joints and picking up bands and gigs and whatever I could. And one band led to another band to another band. And, and somebody asked her one time, said, does it bother you that your son didn't take a more traditional route and go get a good education, go get a good job? She goes, no, it didn't bother me too much. I said, I didn't care. I didn't care anything about having a rich kid. I said, but I sure cared about having a happy kid.

Speaker 2:
[12:45] Oh, wow.

Speaker 1:
[12:45] And so that was kind of, that was her to a T. You know, she was beautiful. You got you a new pal over there. She'll love you at her convenience. That's Tiger. I can make her leave if you want.

Speaker 2:
[13:02] We got a new guest here with us, Vince's cat.

Speaker 1:
[13:04] Don't ask her any tough questions. Ask her how many rabbits she killed today.

Speaker 2:
[13:12] So, what was your first live performance in front of people?

Speaker 1:
[13:17] I think probably, maybe it might have been at the Kolache Festival with my dad in front of people, standing on the side of the streets, waving to you as we went by. But, I went and played at school, in grade school, for an assembly, you know, they'd let me come over and play my guitar. And I, what I remember most is the song I knew and learned and played was House of the Rising Sun. So here I am in fourth or fifth grade, singing songs about houses of ill repute, you know, right off the bat. I figured the die was cast, you know. I was meant to be a Hillbilly singer because I was singing those old rough songs early on and always loved them.

Speaker 2:
[13:59] Well, was was Mountain Smoke the first band that you joined?

Speaker 1:
[14:03] Second. There was a band of there were two different bluegrass bands I was in in high school. And then I had I played in a few bands. I played in a band with my best friend Benny Garcia in junior high school. We played the dances and we had a garage band together. And he was my first music friend and he passed away a few years back. And then there was a band called the Bluegrass Review, which was Billy and Mike Perry, Jimmy Giles and a kid that lived two blocks away from me named Bobby Clark and he was a great musician, a great mallon player. They had a really cool bluegrass band. They were all really fine players. And they needed a guitar player and lead singer. And I never played any bluegrass before. I'd gone over to Bobby's dad's house, Charlie's house, to get a banjo fixed. I'd broken a string on my dad's banjo and didn't know how to fix it. I thought I'm going to catch hell when he gets home. So I went and took it over there and got it fixed before he got home. But I remember Bobby's dad asked me, he says, you ever played any bluegrass? And I said, no, I play in these little rock bands and whatnot and I've never played any bluegrass. And they stuck a Martin guitar in my hands. And away I went, I was really, really taken by acoustic music and bluegrass music. And I played with them for a while. We played the festivals and then there was another local band called Mountain Smoke. And those were guys that all had day jobs and music was more of a fun experience for them than serious. And they weren't quite as good of players as the Bluegrass Review boys, but they had more fun. Yeah. They'd play the joints and go get in trouble. And as a teenage kid in high school, that was a lot of fun. You know, my folks, they didn't give me grief about playing in bars till two in the morning. They said, as long as you get up and get to school and make grades and don't get in any trouble, you can do whatever you want. They were really amazing to get that kind of, you know, encouragement in those years, you know, early 70s and whatnot. But yeah, and then I graduated high school in 75 and the Bluegrass Alliance called to see if I'd moved to Louisville. And then that led to playing in Ricky Skaggs' band called Boone Creek for a short time when I was 18, 19. Then I moved to California. Great fiddle player named Byron Berline hired me to come out to the West Coast. And that's where I met Guy. I met Rodney and Emmylou and all those folks and really changed everything in a big way for me. Getting out there and seeing a little bit broader spectrum of musicians and different kinds of music. And I loved Bluegrass, but I didn't think it was ever quite enough to hold me. I had to do other things too. I liked R&B, I liked rock and roll. I liked pop music, I liked a little bit of everything. So, so many great musicians out there in Southern California. You could go here and it's life changing.

Speaker 2:
[16:56] Yeah. Well, when you were with Mountain Smoke, you guys got the opportunity to open for a pretty big band.

Speaker 1:
[17:04] The opportunity? I don't know if I'd go that far. Just to call it an opportunity or perhaps a soul crushing experience. We opened for Kiss in a bluegrass band, which didn't go very well. And it was actually one of the funnest things that ever happened to me.

Speaker 2:
[17:24] Really?

Speaker 1:
[17:24] To have that many people pissed off and mad was hysterical. We played the first song and they're all painted, and they're ready to rock. And we come with our little banjos and fiddles, and they were not having it, you know? And they went south on us real quick, you know? And it was so much fun to me. We finished the first song, and they're all booing and screaming. I said, well, thank y'all. Appreciate it so much. We got another one before we picked out. As much as you like that last one, I bet you're really going to like this. I messed with them and messed with them and messed with them. And we only lasted a couple songs, two or three songs, and they booed us off stage. And it was a great memory, a great memory.

Speaker 2:
[18:07] Didn't you turn around and show them your rear end?

Speaker 1:
[18:09] I didn't really take my pants down, but I did flip them off and bend over and told them to have a bit of that, you know. They put that in the review the next day. It was pretty funny. My mom still has that.

Speaker 2:
[18:22] How in the world did it, or who in the world thought that a bluegrass band opening for kids was a good idea?

Speaker 1:
[18:29] I don't think they thought it was a good idea. The band was popular locally in the area, and what had happened was the opening act canceled at the last minute. It's the only reason. We got a call at 3 o'clock in the afternoon saying, hey, can you and your band get down here? You know, everybody's going to make $100. It's like, yeah, we can come down there for that. And pretty funny.

Speaker 2:
[18:51] Yeah. So you went up to Kentucky right out of high school pretty much, huh?

Speaker 1:
[18:55] Yep.

Speaker 2:
[18:56] That had to be kind of kind of scary for a young fella.

Speaker 1:
[18:59] It was real scary. Hardest part was pulling out of the driveway.

Speaker 2:
[19:02] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[19:02] I'll never forget that. My mom and dad were on the porch and maybe my sis and brother, I can't remember, but just putting that van in reverse and backing out of the driveway was brutal.

Speaker 2:
[19:14] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[19:14] And I said, man, how am I going to know if I have the courage to do this? And I did. And I got a couple of blocks from the house and CB fired up, and it was my dad, and he called my name. My handle was Old Shep because of the song that he used to sing to me when I was a kid. He said, breaker, breaker, one nine for Old Shep, you know? So I picked up and we had this really beautiful conversation. It's the first conversation I ever had with my father. So it was the only time he'd ever talked to me instead of at me. You know, a parent always kind of talks at you and telling you what to do, straighten up, this and that. So it was a really powerful conversation, just giving me advice. And it was really something.

Speaker 2:
[20:02] Yeah, yeah. I love hearing you tell your stories about your dad.

Speaker 1:
[20:07] They're all true.

Speaker 2:
[20:09] I was showing my cousin, who's off camera here, helping me today, a video this morning, you telling him about him meeting Dolly.

Speaker 1:
[20:16] Oh, gosh.

Speaker 2:
[20:18] He was real excited about that.

Speaker 1:
[20:20] Beautiful. That was a great picture. Biggest smile I ever saw on his face. He wasn't even looking at the camera. He was just... Couldn't help it.

Speaker 2:
[20:29] Well, you got up to Kentucky and like you said, you started playing with Ricky Skaggs for a short time. I know Ricky a little earlier on in there. He was with Ralph Stanley and Keith Whitley was with him. Did you ever happen to cross paths with Keith?

Speaker 1:
[20:45] Yeah, I met Keith. I knew Keith fairly well. We wound up on the same label in the early 80s. And I obviously knew of him when he played with Ralph. And also when he played with JD. Crowe, great band player from Lexington. The beautiful part about that bluegrass community is everybody knows each other. You know, sweet Ronnie Bowman just passed away yesterday. He was a great bluegrass singer and songwriter and wrote some big hits for people. And it's just the whole bluegrass community is torn up. You know, and that's what I love is people I met when I was 16 years old. I'm still friends with them today. Marty, Ricky, Mark O'Connor, Stuart Duncan. I mean, it just goes on and on and on. Doyle Lawson, all these great bluegrassers and all those bands, you know, you are so immersed in such great camaraderie. Because there's obviously not a ton of money in bluegrass music. Everybody kind of cheers each other on. And it's not competitive. And it's just really beautiful how everybody treats each other. And I learned a lot from those bluegrass years, how to treat people, how to play, how to be in a band, how to sing harmony, how to support. It's a very democratic experience playing bluegrass, because everybody has to do their part on an equal basis to make it work. And it's really something, even the biggest stars in bluegrass, they had great pans, that wasn't just them out front shining it. They were always great because they had great pans.

Speaker 2:
[22:26] Yeah. How long were you in Kentucky before you went to California?

Speaker 1:
[22:31] About a year, a little over a year, I think. And I think I moved to Los Angeles in the end of 1976, and I moved to Louisville the summer of 75. So I wasn't there very long, just a little over a year, a year and a half.

Speaker 2:
[22:47] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[22:48] And I actually, after the things didn't work out with Ricky's Bamboo Creek, I went back and played for a short time with the Alliance, and then got a call to go to California. So I really adored Kentucky. I lived in Louisville and Lexington both.

Speaker 2:
[23:03] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[23:03] In such a beautiful state. You know, excuse me, I come from the flatlands of Oklahoma and seeing all that, all those hills and horse farms and greenery was unbelievable. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[23:16] I could imagine. I could only imagine what California must have been like in those days.

Speaker 1:
[23:20] I couldn't believe California when I drove out there. I'd never seen, obviously never been out there. So I didn't realize that, you know, from the coast all the way, 80 miles inland or even more than that. It's just solid concrete, solid freeways. And I thought I had gotten lost when I was moving to California, Los Angeles. I got on the freeway there and drove for 20 or 30 minutes. And I thought, hell, I've missed the whole town. You know, and I called Byron. I said, hey, I think I'm lost. I think I'm maybe somewhere down around San Diego or something. Now you got to go about 60 more miles on the same freeway you're on and then cut north and I had never seen anything so massive. Beautiful. I loved it out there. I lived in Hermosa Beach, right out there, not on the ocean, but a mile from the ocean. I could see the ocean from our house and that was a really peaceful, peaceful place to live.

Speaker 2:
[24:17] Yeah. What was the music scene like over there?

Speaker 1:
[24:21] It was amazing. You know, there were different pockets of, you know, there was the beach guys, there was the valley guys, there was the Hollywood guys, there was just different factions all over and playing with Byron. He was well known out there and a pretty first call session hand playing fiddle on all kinds of records. And so it was pretty astounding, you know, to get out there and see guys like Larry Carlton or Robin Ford or Albert Lee or Rodney and Guy and all those folks, and Emi and James Burton was out there and you just, you know, great musician after great musician after great musician. You go in some club and hear the best music you'd ever heard in your whole life.

Speaker 2:
[25:04] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[25:05] You know, it's a great place.

Speaker 2:
[25:07] Yeah, we had Rodney on recently, Rodney Crowell, and he told the story of meeting you for the first time. But I want to hear it from your perspective.

Speaker 1:
[25:14] My perspective? Okay, I just moved to Southern California. In the first gig we played, we were, Myron's band was going to open for Guy, Guy Clark, at the Troubadour, which is the most famous club in all of LA. It's where the Eagles met and got started, and playing with Linda, and way back. And, you know, Don tells the story about seeing Carole King do her first show there, and Elton John, and just a magical place, you know, who you could go down there and hear. And so our band did Rodney's song, till I gained control again, I'd never met Rodney, I didn't even know he was there.

Speaker 2:
[25:54] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[25:55] You know? And our band played it in the opening set. And we went back to the dressing room, and he came barging in the dressing room, and he looks at me and goes, who are you? I won't say exactly what he said, but who the eff are you? You know? I said, hang on, Vince. He goes, where do you get off singing my song, Better Than Me? I said, I love your song. He said, you and me are gonna be friends. That's what he said that night. And danged if we aren't, you know, 50 years later.

Speaker 2:
[26:25] Yeah. Yeah. That would be a connection that would later on, you'd go to work with Rodney.

Speaker 1:
[26:31] Yeah. You know, he actually, when he first started the Cherry Bombs and had left Amilou to kind of bust out towards a solo career, he invited me then to be in the band. And I couldn't believe I told him no, but I did. I had joined Pure Prairie League just prior to that. And Rodney is who I always wanted to play with. I always wanted to play guitar for him and sing harmony. And the band he had put together was Hank DeVito and Richard Bennett and Henry Gordy and Larry London and Tony Brown. And it was just the greatest band of musicians I could ever hope to play with. And I said, well, I said, I want to do this so bad, but Pure Prairie League is getting a new record deal, and they're going to get another shot at this new record company. I just want to see how it goes. And that turned into a big hit for them called Let Me Love You Tonight, which I sang for them and got to be on Solid Gold and American Bandstand, all these great TV shows back in the day. And a great experience, Don Karshner's Rock Concert, and Mike Douglas, and Merv Griffin, and all of those talk shows. And so then I felt like that had run its course, and I was starting to show a little more interest in other things, and I didn't really see a great future for that. So I called Rodney, I said, hey, I'm going to leave the band if you still have a mind to have me come play, let me know. And he did, and I did. So I've been playing with him off and on for all these years.

Speaker 2:
[28:10] Well, you were still fairly young when you joined Pure Prairie League.

Speaker 1:
[28:14] Oh yeah, that was 1978, I was 21.

Speaker 2:
[28:19] And fairly quickly had a lot of mainstream success with those guys. What was that like for a young kid?

Speaker 1:
[28:28] It was informative. It was a great learning curve. I learned about record companies, I learned about record production, I learned about studios, I learned about the record industry, lawyers, publishing, all kinds of things that were important.

Speaker 2:
[28:46] The business side of things.

Speaker 1:
[28:47] Yeah, the business side of things. Those guys, I don't blame them for it, I don't say this because I regret giving it to them, but they took my publishing when I first joined the band. They just said, hey, we don't have a way to make any extra money through the publishing side of things, but you'll make the money for writing the songs. If we can have the publishing, then we could have a piece of the writing side of it too, which I thought was fair and did that, you know? And then I learned my lesson and didn't do it again. But, you know, I started playing in that band, and I'd only written, I think, seven or eight songs in my life. That's all I had. And I joined that band and they said, hey, do you have any songs? I said, yeah, I got a few. And they liked them, and they recorded five of my songs on the first record. Now I'm a songwriter. And I wasn't a very good one. You know, I'd be the first to say that, and you'd probably be the second after you heard them. Away I went, and it kind of lit a fire in me to write, to start writing songs and be a better songwriter. And I'm still doing that to this day, you know. All these years later, I think I'm writing my best songs now than I ever did. Even in my successful years of having my own hits in the decade of the 90s, and got to, was fortunate to win CMA Song of the Year four times. That'd never been done. And, you know, little by little, you know, I got better and I kept getting better. And that was kind of the knock on me early on. When I first signed in 83 was songs aren't very good. And they were correct. You know, even Harlan Howard, Harlan Howard pulled me aside one day and he said, kid, you're, you're one of the best guitar players I've ever heard. And you're a hell of a singer. You got one of the best voices in the world. Your songs are okay. And I said, I get you. I get your point. You know, and I used to sing Harlan's demos for him when I first moved to town for ten bucks a song and adored him. You know, just the best, best guy in the world. And, and they did. They started getting better, you know, and little by little. And there was a time where I was, when I was at RCA that they didn't want me to record my own songs because I hadn't had any success. And I didn't begrudge him that at all, you know, but I wanted to either fail on my own terms or succeed on my own terms. And I didn't want to be someone that didn't write their own songs. The people I loved most wrote their own songs. So just through trial and error and time, and I finally came up with the right song at the right time and everything worked out.

Speaker 2:
[31:29] Well, I think that's a credit to the longevity of your career is that you, you did do things your own way and you grew into.

Speaker 1:
[31:37] Yeah, you know, I, I, there were some, there were some moments that I talk about often where I made decisions that probably didn't make the best sense, you know, for, for, uh, I turned down a job, a job with Dire Straits in the late eighties, you know, and I'd struggled in my country career for years. And he called and said, I want you to come play guitar with us and go on a world tour, which would have solved all my financial problems and all that. But I told him, I said, I can't do it. He goes, how come? I said, I think I have something to offer country music. It hasn't happened. But if I don't believe in me, I can't expect anybody else to either.

Speaker 2:
[32:15] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[32:15] So I'm going to turn down the sure thing and bet on me.

Speaker 2:
[32:19] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[32:19] You know, and lo and behold, when I call your name came out right after I turned that down and changed everything.

Speaker 2:
[32:25] Wow.

Speaker 1:
[32:25] But I had no reason to believe that it would. I just had a hope that it would.

Speaker 2:
[32:29] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[32:30] You know, and that was enough.

Speaker 2:
[32:32] Well, playing with Rodney and being around him and guys like Guy Clarke, who you wrote songs with both of them and being around those, did they teach you quite a bit about writing songs?

Speaker 1:
[32:45] If you were smart enough to shut up and listen, they did. Which I was. You know, I remember Guy always meant, if this word doesn't add to the song or have a point, you can't be in the song. He's a great lesson in editing and never settling, you know. I've got his original lyric to The Randall Knife that is so special to me. Amy, I think it was my 50th birthday, maybe, went to him and asked him, said, would you write out the lyrics to The Randall Knife? And he had these notebooks of all of his songs, you know, these beautiful books. And he was looking at it and he started to write it. He said, I've never taken a page out of one of these books. He said, but it's for benefit. So he ripped the original lyrics of The Randall Knife and I got him framed in the hallway in there. And she got it for me for my birthday. And that was pretty special. And because I recorded, I played guitar on guy's original version of The Randall Knife. The song just destroyed me when we were cutting it, and I knew when I heard it. I said, that's the song I'll play at my father's funeral someday. There were so many parallels in the story of Guy and his relationship with his father. And Guy's father died when he was 40, and so did mine. And just like eerie similarities, my father was a lawyer and so was Guy's. And so it just really rang true to me. And I loved any time I got a chance to be around those guys.

Speaker 2:
[34:23] Yeah, it'd be hard to pick the best songs that Guy Clark ever wrote. But The Rental Knife is up there.

Speaker 1:
[34:30] It sure is. I mean, it's powerful. We were all, we were all the musicians just like weeping when we were tracking it. And then there was a line to the pay phone to everybody went and called their dad. After we recorded that.

Speaker 2:
[34:45] I believe it. Well, being with Rodney made a connection for you that would change everything. And that's through Tony Brown, who was playing with Rodney.

Speaker 1:
[34:58] Yeah. You know, Tony, a great piano player, played with Elvis and all the gospel world. And I first met Tony when I was playing with Rodney and doing some of those sessions on guys' records and Rodney's records and different people's records. And then we started playing together and he started working for RCA. And he went to work as an A&R guy for RCA. And he signed me in 83 to RCA, along with Joe Colani and Randy Goodman. And they came to see us play. I was playing with Roseanne. They offered me a record deal, watching me just play guitar and singing in harmony with Rose. And so I was pretty excited about that. And then right after he signed me, he went to MCA and started there and started building his career. And it went great guns for him, obviously. And then in 89, I asked RCA if they would let me out of my contract. And Joe was so kind. He said, I don't want to. He said, I believe in you. And I said, I know you do. I said, but man, we've tried for years and years and years. It just didn't, you know, if you'd do this for me as a friend, just let me go and get a fresh start somewhere else and see what happens. And he did. And I really owe him a lot for that. It was kind of him to do. And right before I started When I Call Your Name, Tony called me and said, man, I don't know how to tell you this, but I might be leaving MCA. And I said, I'm going up to New York this weekend. We were starting the record on Monday. This was Friday. He went to New York that weekend and he just told him, he said, you either have to do this and this and this or I'm leaving. They said, OK, we'll do this and this and this. And he stayed and we made When I Call Your Name. But what nobody really knew was, he told me this years later, he said, what I never told you was who was going to come and run the company was going to drop you. It was the first thing they were going to do was drop you from me signing you. And so had he not gotten what he wanted and not stayed, I would have been dropped and who knows what might have happened. It doesn't matter because it didn't. But it's just interesting how turning the road one way or the other can just completely change your life.

Speaker 2:
[37:26] Yeah, everything. What do you think the difference was? You know, I've read about your time at RCA and everything. And then you get over there with MCA and have pretty quick success. What do you think the difference was there?

Speaker 1:
[37:42] I would hope to say with all truthfulness, the song, it was the right song at the right time. You know, the things, I look back at my RCA records and I'm not crazy about them. You know, I'm not sure I knew what I wanted to do, first and foremost. And the other thing a lot of people don't realize, I went to MCA and the first two singles didn't do very well. There was a song called Never Alone, and then I did a duet with Reba, called Oklahoma Swing. She was nice enough to come and do that with me, which helped get me a little bit further down the path in the good graces of radio. You know, and that helps set up when I call your name. And I'll always be holding to her for that, and she's special. But in all, you know, what's funny is I just think it was the song. You know, it was that song at the right time. And what's so funny about that is it's a four-minute 48-second waltz in 1990 or 89, whatever year it was. And nobody would bet the farm on that song or that record at that particular time. And steel guitar was not exactly in great favor with country radio and with records at the time. And I remember when Paul Franklin played the original solo on the record, it wasn't as drippy and syrupy as his old-school steel guitars as it wound up. And I called him and I said, Hey, would you mind replaying that solo on that waltz? And he goes, I liked what I played. I said, well, I did too, but I just want the instrument to do what nobody wants it to do anymore. I want to hear it moan and cry and weep and do all the things that I love about the instrument. He was not happy, but he came back in and did it. And then it did what it did. And now it's one of the real iconic steel guitar solos in the history of country music that he played. And he pulled me aside and he goes, I need to say thank you for getting me to replay that. It's just a happy accident, Polly. But I love all the nuance of record making and arranging. I like things to be authentic. If something is going to be country, I want it to be the real deal. That's the way I've always been.

Speaker 2:
[40:12] Well, it had to be a lot different for you too. With the background you had of being with bands for all of those years and then stepping out as Vince Gill as a solo act.

Speaker 1:
[40:22] Yeah, but the process never changed within the confines of the studio and the writing of a song and the orchestration of a song, the arrangement of a song. All those things, I deem all that stuff in there equal. Every note is equal. And every note is as important as the next. And so I love the minutia of all the notes and all the parts being the parts that they are because they are so memorable. The musician's value to the recording industry is untouchable. You'll hear an intro and you'll immediately know what song it is because of what somebody played. Long before the singer starts singing, most all records have been defined in a way that makes them special. And When I Call Your Name had that as well. I had Barry Beckett playing that opening intro. The song, we didn't have an intro for it. He came in late one night and after he'd been in session all day, came in about one in the morning and said, man, we need an intro on this song. And he doodledoo, doodledoo, and bang. And it was defined. He didn't even remember doing it. Really? We had a big party for the record being a hit and all. And I invited him to the party because he produced the last of the things I did on RCA. And he was a big believer in my songs. And he wanted to record my songs more than the outside songs that we were getting. And so we did record some of my songs. And that was kind of the final nail in the coffin for me over there in a way. But he was giving me a big bear hug. And he said, man, you finally did it. You had that career record. We all knew you would. We all knew you could. We were all rooting for you and hoping for you. He said, it's so great. He said, by the way, he goes, who's playing piano on that song? And I said, are you kidding me? He goes, no. I go, it's you. He goes, it is? I said, yeah. You came in about one in the morning one night after being in session all night and played that beautiful intro in the first half of the solo. And he goes, oh, well, no wonder I like it.

Speaker 3:
[42:31] No one goes to Hank's for his spreadsheets. They go for a darn good pizza. Lately though, the shop's been quiet. So Hank decides to bring back the $1 slice. He asks Copilot in Microsoft Excel to look at his sales and costs to help him see if he can afford it. Copilot shows Hank where the money's going and which little extras make the dollar slice work. Now, Hank says, line out the door. Hank makes the pizza. Copilot handles the spreadsheets. Learn more at m365copilot.com/work.

Speaker 2:
[43:04] That's funny. What you think about musical pairings that are just meant to be George and Tammy, you know, Conway and Loretta, you play, you actually sang harmonies on Patty, for Patty Loveless before she did for you, right?

Speaker 1:
[43:22] Yeah. Quite a few of her records. You know, we each sing on each other's first hit record. Hers was If My Heart Had Windows, the old Joan song, and I sang harmonies on it, and I sang on Timber, I sang on Chains, I sang on a million of her hits on Down the Line, and I can't even count them all, you know, before I ever kind of caught some heat, you know, and that's my little sister, you know. It feels like to me, our voices just do something that's pretty magical when they go together. But I mean, her voice would sound good with anybody.

Speaker 2:
[43:59] Yeah. Well, for you, you probably never really had to starve too bad because you were so good at doing harmony work and guitar work, you probably always had some kind of a gig to at least pay the bills.

Speaker 1:
[44:11] Yeah. You know, that's the one thing that was kind of a blessing in a way, you know, in that my career didn't take off like I hoped it would, and thought it would. But I said, I'm still relevant. People call me and ask me to play on their records, sing on their records and write songs with them. And I could go play in just about any band going if I needed to go join a band and play in a band or be a sideman. I've been one. I know how to be. That's the best compliment Don Henley gave me when I started playing with the Eagles 10 years ago. Somebody asked him, said, why did you get the country guy in the band? He smiles because he knows how to be in a band. You know, and that was great to get to hear, it was powerful. And I've really enjoyed that stretch of my life getting to do that. And it's taught me a valuable lesson about how important songs are. Yeah. You know, the reason they're them is because their songs were just better than everybody else's straight up. Yeah. You know, and they're all pretty, pretty unforgettable.

Speaker 2:
[45:20] Right.

Speaker 1:
[45:20] And just a great, a great, great lesson in arranging and nothing unnecessary on those records. You remember every part of those records. You remember the solos, you remember the backgrounds, you remember the ooze, you remember the lyrics, the melody, everything about those records is, is off the chain great.

Speaker 2:
[45:42] Right. You know, when, when Jamie Johnson come on, he was talking about Willie Nelson and he called him the ultimate country music fan. He said that, you know, the guy who's out there playing it every night and just doing it as long as he just loves the music. And I mean, I see that in you. Most people might have got discouraged, you know, whenever they had that stint with RCA like you, you had. But you never, did you ever get discouraged?

Speaker 1:
[46:11] Oh, a lot of times you get you get disappointed. You'd have your hopes up. You think this is the one that's going to turn everything around. It wouldn't happen. It wouldn't happen. And, and of course it was because in, in, in, in, I don't say this in an arrogant way, but my, my ears told me I was as good as anybody doing it. Yeah. You know, not, I don't mean that to say I'm great. I just, my ears told me I had plenty to offer, you know, and, and, but it, you know, I would have done it no matter what. I would have done it, even if I hadn't had this success at MCA, I would have done it either way at RCA. I would have, I would have, if, if I played in a holiday in band for six nights a week, that's the best thing that ever happened. That's what I'd be doing. I know without fail that I would be playing music, no matter what. It was never predicated on success. It was never predicated on hit records. It was never any of those things. You know, I bought that guitar when I was 18 years old, spent all my money. So I started out with absolutely not $1. And I knew why I wanted to do it because I loved it. And I still do. You know, I don't, I'm not, I'm, I'm not much about a paycheck. Yeah. Never had, never was a reason I wanted or didn't want to do something.

Speaker 2:
[47:38] Right. But it had to be nice when they finally started.

Speaker 1:
[47:41] It was nice to finally get paid. Yeah. I mean, that was hysterical. The first check for when I call your name came and I went home. I got it. I haven't made this much in my whole life. So yeah, it was fun. It was fun to turn it around. And, but it, you know, it didn't change one thing about me. That's the truth, you know, I still, a lot of people would surmise, well, you don't have to go play on everybody's records now. You don't need the money, you know, you know, you succeeded. And I go, I think what it's about, you know, I love the fact that, that people call me because they think I can help their record be better.

Speaker 2:
[48:19] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[48:20] I don't think I get those calls because I'm well known. I think I get those calls because the talent that I have been given is good at that.

Speaker 2:
[48:30] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[48:30] You know, and it's actually, I think it's a much harder job to go do something for someone else on their records because you have to do something that is in their world. And you have to, it takes a little more. You don't just go do what you want. You can't just go in there and sing what you want and play what you want. You have to do it within the confines of what it is that you're working on. You know, and I love the challenge of finding a way to chip in on a record and hopefully make it a better record.

Speaker 2:
[49:07] Yeah. Well, speaking of singing harmonies, I read that you said one time that the hardest task you ever had was singing harmonies for Willie Nelson.

Speaker 1:
[49:15] Well, absolutely. By far, that's the hardest session ever. It was like a half a dozen songs, I think. He did a tribute to Ray Price's record, you know, and Ray always had that great tenor singer singing with him and can't call his name right off the top of my head now, but that, you know, I was always drawn to the high singer, whether it was Don Rich, whether it was Phil Everly, whoever it was that was singing the high parts. Ralph Stanley, I just loved, I loved getting to sing the high parts, you know, and so away I went, always trying to, and that was a challenge because Willie's phrasing is the most unique of any singer that walks the earth. Right. You know, and I feel like he does that to give himself the time and the room to call and respond with himself. He sings the way he sings so he can then answer himself playing something on the guitar, sing something, then play another fill, and it's really magical, but it was daunting, you know, I'd go two or three words at a time, okay, I think I got those and just little by little by little by little. Sweet Fred Foster is the one that asked me to do that. He called after the Timejumpers had done the majority of that record with Willie backing him up on all those Ray songs. And then Fred called and said, hey, I need you to do some harmony singing. I said, that can't be done. He said, you're the only guy I trust to do it. I said, okay, I'll try it, you know, turned out great.

Speaker 2:
[50:50] It did. Well, the folks who watch and listen, they love a good story behind the song. So I'm gonna ask you a few of them, but we'll start with the big one when I call your name. What's the story behind that one?

Speaker 1:
[51:02] Man, Tim Dubois, my sweet friend Tim. We just decided to get together. We'd work together off and on through the management side of things. He was partners with Larry Fitzgerald and Mark Hartley, who were my managers for such a long time. They had a relationship and managed Restless Heart together and I think some other things. I knew Tim from the RCA days of producing records, and he wrote a hit for Jerry Reed, and wrote a few hit songs, and we were always friendly, and he's from Oklahoma like me, and we finally sat down and wrote a couple of songs. I think that was one of them. Like I said, in 1990, I don't think anybody with a straight face would bet on over a four and a half minute waltz to be the one to trip the switch, but man, when it did, it was so much fun to finally have a record that caught fire. I'd never seen anything like that, and it caught fire all over the country, and it was, you couldn't stop it. It was really something to watch, and sadly, we never wrote another song together.

Speaker 2:
[52:17] Really?

Speaker 1:
[52:18] Uh-uh. We should have, had a pretty good start.

Speaker 2:
[52:21] Yeah, yeah, a really good start.

Speaker 1:
[52:23] But I don't have one recollection of if I had a title or he had a title or what. I usually don't, we just sit down and just bang it out, and I love the way the melody soars in that song and the chorus when it goes so high, and I'm able to sing the way that I sing and musical enough that I can take melodies, not unlike a Roy Orbison and write songs that have melodies that allow your voice to really soar and shine and do the things that my voice can do. So being able to tailor make these melodies for the way I sing has been very, very beneficial.

Speaker 2:
[53:06] Yeah, yeah, went on to win all sorts of awards. Yeah, I know.

Speaker 1:
[53:14] You know what, I'll tell you a story about about the first award. First award I won was an ACM award back in the mid early mid 80s, 84 or five. I think I won best new male vocalist and didn't translate to any hits or anything like that. It was just good fortune. But when I call your name won in 1990, I think it was single of the year. The first person I saw stand up was Joe Galani.

Speaker 2:
[53:42] Oh, wow.

Speaker 1:
[53:42] At RCA Records. And that's how good our friendship was. I love my relationships with people and the loyalty and great friends. And that meant everything to me that, you know, it wasn't like he was disappointed. He was grateful that it finally happened. If it wasn't him, it didn't bother him. You know, he was proud for his friend. That was special.

Speaker 2:
[54:04] Yeah, that says a lot about his character.

Speaker 1:
[54:06] Sure does.

Speaker 2:
[54:08] Well, another song I want to ask you about is Look At Us. And the reason is, I think Max D. Barnes is one of the greatest to ever do it. And that's not the only thing that you guys collaborated on. You also collaborated on other songs. But what was it like getting to work with somebody like Max?

Speaker 1:
[54:28] Well, it was a real, it was really a treat. He called me and he'd heard When I Call Your Name and heard a couple of the songs. He said, hey kid, I like that you write real country songs, real traditional minded country songs. And would you consider coming out and writing some songs with me? And I said, well, just say when. Of course. And I knew he liked sad songs because of his repertoire.

Speaker 2:
[54:56] Chiseled and stoned.

Speaker 1:
[54:57] Chiseled and stoned. The saddest song of all time. Next to old ship, you know? And anyway, he called and said, would you come out? And I said, yes. So we got a date and I went out to his big house in the country. And I didn't want to show up empty handed. So I started working on a song before I went out there and it was Look at Us. But the way I had started the song, you know, I like him sad. And I knew he liked him sad because he wrote chiseled and stoned. And so this story was Look at Us after all these years together, we're not going to make it. Yeah. Right. And so I went out to his big house in the country and got out there and we talked for a while. He said, well, kid, you got any ideas? I said, I got this one idea. I think you might like it right up your alley. And I sang it for him. And I said, what do you think? And he looked at me and goes, man, that's too sad. I said, what did you say? He said, that's too sad. I said, this coming from the man that wrote Chiseled in Stone, the second saddest song of all time. And he got bowed up. And he goes, what the hell is Saturn Chiseled in Stone? I said, old ship. He says, is it that folk song where the guy shoots his own dog at the end? He goes, okay, maybe you got me there. He said, I love your idea. He said, I just think you're going about it in the wrong way. I said, what do you mean? He said, I think that couple needs to stay together. And you write it from that perspective rather than the other. And boy, was he right. Yeah. I mean, even when he told me that, I said, are you sure? He kind of chuckled. He said, kid, look around here and tell me what you see. And I said, okay, gold records on the wall, citations, this and that, whatever. And he said, yeah, you might want to listen to me. Fair enough. So we flipped it around, made it positive, and now it's the love song of love songs for people that stay together for a long, long time.

Speaker 2:
[56:52] Yeah, no telling how many weddings it's been.

Speaker 1:
[56:54] Oh man, I got so many videos sent to me of 50th anniversaries of couples that loved that song and pretty great.

Speaker 2:
[57:04] Yeah, it probably wouldn't be played at those if they...

Speaker 1:
[57:06] Yeah, if I turned around and killed somebody in that song.

Speaker 2:
[57:15] Well, another iconic song of yours, Go Rest High on that Mountain. You started writing that one when Keith Whitley passed away, didn't you?

Speaker 1:
[57:25] I kind of did. You know, the reference to Keith is, you weren't afraid to face the devil. You were no stranger to the rain. That was from his song, I'm No Stranger to the Rain. And I think I just had a couple of lines, you know, it was right after he'd passed and we knew each other from the RCA days and also the Bluegrass days. And I didn't feel comfortable about writing it. So I put it away. And then my brother died four years later. And I thought, you know, I had a neat start to a song, but I had no chorus. I had nothing. I just had a couple of lines about, you weren't afraid to face the devil. You were no stranger to the rain. And then came Go Rest High and the rest. And so it's, you know, 95% about my brother, about losing my brother. And then I've been singing that song for 30 years or more, I think, and not too long ago, as I really studied that song, I've always felt like it was incomplete, that I didn't really finish the thought because it was so long of a record. You know, it had Stuart playing that beautiful fiddle solo. Then I played a guitar solo after that, it only had two verses. And I thought this song never buttoned up for me. I never completed the story. And it always kind of ate at me for all those years. And then a few years ago, I sat down and said, this song could use one more verse. So I sat down and now there's a new version that just came out last fall with me singing the third verse.

Speaker 2:
[59:05] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[59:05] Which is really, you know, I was proud of it. Even Rodney, I was kind of skeptical of whether I should do it. And he pulled me aside. He said, what you wrote is fantastic. You should absolutely do that. Don't back down, you know. And it's a beautiful verse.

Speaker 2:
[59:22] It is.

Speaker 1:
[59:23] And it says, You're safely home in the arms of Jesus. In eternal life, my brothers found... I never can remember. I can remember when I'm singing it. But anyway, it finally encapsulated everything I wanted the song to say.

Speaker 2:
[59:42] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[59:42] And it feels complete now.

Speaker 2:
[59:44] Yeah, it does. It really, really ties it together. One of the greatest performances of all time, one of the saddest performances of all time, was when you sang that song at George Jones.

Speaker 1:
[59:58] Tried to.

Speaker 2:
[59:59] Yeah. But I mean, that's really what made the performance. I don't think there was anybody who was watching that live like me and my family was. I don't think there was a drive in the world.

Speaker 1:
[60:10] Because there hadn't been, in that memorial, there was not that moment in the memorial to be emotional yet.

Speaker 2:
[60:18] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[60:18] And that kind of, it triggered everybody. It was in the crowd, it was in the audience, it was, you just, you felt everybody go, oh, it's okay to cry, it's okay to cry, it's okay to lose it now. And truth be told, what took me down was Patty's voice, the sound of it. I sung that song at every funeral for 30 plus years and usually sometimes I can get through it, sometimes I can't. But that day when she started singing harmony and I hadn't heard her sing in a while and it was just so, so beautiful, it just took me down. And I couldn't, I never did recover.

Speaker 2:
[60:55] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[60:55] You know, and it was hard, it's hard to watch because it's on one hand it's a little bit embarrassing to lose it in front of everybody. But what it did do, I realized it gave everybody the license to go ahead and let go and fall apart.

Speaker 2:
[61:15] Yeah, well, I wouldn't be embarrassed by it if I was you because it really, it did create a moment. Yeah, it did create a moment. And Patty was such a trooper.

Speaker 1:
[61:25] She's trying. She goes, well, I could just read her face. What the hell are you doing? Get back in here. You're killing me. She soldiered on, boy.

Speaker 2:
[61:36] And then through tears, you turned around and just killed, shredded out a guitar solo.

Speaker 1:
[61:40] I figured if I played long enough, I might catch myself. Might be able to catch up and get through the rest of it. And I did. And that felt like the right thing to do. You can cry while you're playing. You can't cry when you're singing. I can cry just fine and still play that guitar.

Speaker 2:
[61:59] Well, it was obvious that George Jones meant a lot to you.

Speaker 1:
[62:03] Oh, he was such a great guy. He's so much fun. And we had so many great experiences together. We used to tour together with him and Conway and me.

Speaker 2:
[62:16] Oh, wow.

Speaker 1:
[62:16] And When I Call Your Name had become a big hit. So I finally had a big hit. And we would tour together. They invited me to go out with them and the young punk. And so George demanded to open the show so he could go put on his PJs, go to the bus and watch Matlock on the bus. And Conway was, of course, going to close the show. So that left knucklehead kid up there with one hit song in between these giants. And it was pretty daunting task most nights. And George came to me one night and he called me Sweet Pea. That was his nickname for me. He said, Sweet Pea? He says, You like ravioli? And I said, Well, yeah, of course I do. He said, Well, I'll tell you what, son. He said, I think I got some of the best damn ravioli I ever ate in my life. I said, You do? And he goes, Yeah, why don't you finish your show, put on your PJs, come out and watch a little Matlock with me on the bus. We'll have some of that ravioli. And I'm thinking he knows some great Italian family that's made this world class ravioli. But now he opens the cupboard and it's this crap brand that's not even Chef Boyardee. It's an off brand, lower than Chef Boyardee.

Speaker 2:
[63:30] Clover Valley or something.

Speaker 1:
[63:31] Whatever it was called. He opened it up, dumped it in the bowl, stuck it in the microwave and I go, Oh, God, I've got to eat this. And so, he puts it down and of course I eat it. And he says, Well, you think, Sweet Peas? I said, Yeah, you're right. That's some of the best damn ravioli I ever had. You know, I got home from that tour and there was a case of that crap at my house when I got home. He got me a whole case of it. I think we sent it to the shelter or whatever. But then we were making a, the record he made that we were all crazy about was the duet record he made, the Bradley Barnes Sessions. Oh yeah, yeah. And I remember the first day we worked and a guy that produced Emmy's early records, Brian Ahern, was gonna produce the records. And it was so foreign to George, you know, the way that Brian worked and we worked and me and Marty Stewart and Ricky Skaggs, we were in the house band with Leon Russell and this cool band, a core band, and I'd play guitar and then Marty played mandolin and Ricky played fiddle or vice versa. I'd play mandolin and Marty played guitar. And everybody was just switching out instruments and figuring out what we wanted to do. And it was really a cool vibe in there. But George just wanted to go in there and sing the songs and be done, you know. We were working the arrangements out on the floor and he was impatient and it wasn't going well. And he didn't like the sound and everything about it was going downhill. And I got home that night from the sessions and Tony Brown called me up and he goes, what happened? I said, what do you mean? He goes, George quit. I said, what do you mean he quit? He goes, he said that was the worst stuff he'd ever been a part of in his whole life and hated it and he wasn't going back. I go, oh my God, that's too bad. This has the potential to be a really special record. And he goes, what happened? Well, we're working the arrangements up on the floor and that's not his gathering around the piano, figuring out parts and all this stuff. He wants to go in and get it done. And so he said, well, I'm going to call you right back. So he called George and he said, hey George, I just talked to Sweet Pea. And he said, he said he wished you wouldn't quit and wish you would give it another shot because he thinks this could be a really special record. He said, Sweet Pea liked that? And he said, yeah, he did. The next day he came up to me and he says, you really like this crap? And I said, yeah, it's great. I said, look, I know it's not the way you like to do it, but if you'll just trust us, if you'll trust Ricky, if you'll trust Marty, you trust me, we're going to make you a really cool record. All right. So we talked him into finishing it up and it turned out great. And the funniest part of the whole night or the whole sessions was Keith Richards was going to do a duet with him. And George pulls me aside and he goes, you're telling me this guy is a star? Yeah, George, he's one of the biggest stars in rock and roll. He goes, well, he can't sing. I said, he's the guitar player. He adores you. You're the greatest thing on earth to him. And this is the biggest deal in the world to him. Okay. And so away we went, and we made this great record. And the other thing that happened on those sessions that I'll never forget was Ricky started preaching to Keith Richards. And that was entertaining. Kept after him, kept after him, finally. Keith said, well, Ricky, says, I reckon when I meet that God, I'm in for quite a spanking. There's a whole bunch of great stories that came out of that session. Those duvets were, that was a really neat record. And I hope he enjoyed what he got out of that.

Speaker 2:
[67:28] Yeah, that reminds me of what you said, him asking about Keith Richard. I'm sure you've probably heard the story, but of Don Henley going on Murrell's bus, Ben Haggard, being a knoller on the show, and said that Don had come on Murrell's bus to visit with him. And Murrell was, I think they said he was rolling the joint and Don and him were visiting. And Don said, Murrell, you know, we ought to play a show together sometime. And Murrell looked at him and said, yeah, we should. Do you got a band?

Speaker 1:
[68:02] You had a band?

Speaker 2:
[68:03] Don Henley and the Eagles.

Speaker 1:
[68:06] You know, he got Murrell to sing on his Cass County record.

Speaker 2:
[68:09] Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[68:10] And Don told me that story. It was touch and go there for a while. And I don't know if I should tell this story, but anyway, he had Murrell in there singing. And Don's a taskmaster. You know, he'll work you hard. And he did me and had a great experience. I knew what I was in for. And that's why he's great, because every detail matters, you know. And he had Murrell in there for quite some time. And Murrell finally came into the control room and he said, hey, boys, is this some kind of sick joke? And Don said, wow. He goes, well, we're just trying to get it great like you are. And we just want it to be the best. And Murrell looked at him and said, I believe you boys are looking for a younger man. And I said to Don, I said, you wrote that, didn't you? He goes, oh, yeah, and there's a song on Cass County called Younger Man. That's such a cool song. But yeah, you know, it's a fine line sometimes between working somebody past their comfort zone, you know. And I've always been a, the devil's in the details, you know. I love the nuance of everything being just so. I'm not trying to have something be perfect. I'm just trying to have something be great.

Speaker 2:
[69:31] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[69:31] And if you can make it better. You know, what do they say about art? It's never really finished. It's only abandoned. You know, and there's not a perfection. There's not a perfect. It just is what it is in the moment. It's kind of special that you eventually go, well, okay, that's about as good as I can do.

Speaker 2:
[69:49] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[69:49] I have to cut it loose, turn it loose and set it out there. See what everybody thinks.

Speaker 2:
[69:55] Yeah. It's kind of like you said about Guy Clark earlier talking about the edit. I had Roger Murray and Jim McBride on, and they both said the same thing. The magic of songwriting is in the edit.

Speaker 1:
[70:05] Exactly right. It takes you a long time to learn that as a young man or a young performer. I remember one of the earliest sessions I ever did, I was playing guitar on somebody's record and it was my time to play a solo, and I whittled away and played like I play, and producer hits the talk back and goes, man, that was impressive. He said, let's try it again. He said, this time, just play me half of what you know. I went, oh boy, okay. Let me get that knife out of my back, but good point. I'm taking direction here. So it's really interesting. I spent my whole life trying to discard the information I know I don't need. When I'm playing something or singing something or writing something, I say, okay, there's eight words here. Could I say it better with six words or five words? If I'm singing something, could I take these three notes out and not hold them so long? Could I phrase this differently? Milk that word for a little bit longer and edit a word out. And the same with my playing. You know, I'm trying to say the most with the least. I kind of always have, and it took a while to get there. But once you finally realize it's really in the subtleties, it's in what you don't play sometimes that can really speak and really move people, you know? I think a lot of information sometimes is just a lot of information.

Speaker 2:
[71:33] Right, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[71:33] You know, I'd rather play to be moved than play to be impressed.

Speaker 2:
[71:36] Yeah. Well, we've spoken a lot about the Eagles throughout this. And now you are an Eagle, been an Eagle for about 10 years. But what was that feeling like for you when you were approached at the beginning and asked to join?

Speaker 1:
[71:52] Well, it was, to me, it felt like a great validation of my 40 or 50 years of doing this, of what I accomplished and what I was able to do. And I was beyond flattered that I'm the one guy they thought about to come in and carry that forward. You know, and Don told me, you know, in private that he said, you're one of the only people I even thought of. If I wanted to continue to do this, if you hadn't been interested, I don't know if that I would have done it, you know. So it was, you know, I have to, I'm cautious about it in that the only reason I got to do it was because of the passing of a friend. Glenn died and so I was, I'm not, hey, I'm in the Eagles, you know, I've never been that way. I said they needed somebody to come help them play and sing these songs and carry that forward. So, you know, I don't with a straight face, I can't lay claim to a note of their music.

Speaker 2:
[72:55] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[72:56] You know, so I don't, I don't let that affect the reason I get to do it, you know, and the real reason I get to do it is because of a tragedy. Yeah. You know, it's part of me that wishes I wasn't there. That means Glenn would still be around. Yeah. You know, and I remember when I first started doing it, I told people, I don't want to hear me sing New Kid in Town either. Don't take it out on me, you know. I'm just here trying to facilitate and do the best I can. And I've taken a lot of slings and arrows. Yeah. You know, and I don't mind. I know I'm going to anyway. That's never bothered me much, but it's been an amazing, amazing validation of a lot of years of doing this. You know, they could have gotten just about anybody and they chose me and that's special. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[73:45] And, you know, you get, people get those comments, no matter what you do, you're going to get comments from somebody. But it seems like the reception overall has been fantastic.

Speaker 1:
[73:54] It's been pretty good. It was first gig was at Dodger Stadium 2017. And, you know, we're going to play in LA where the band started. And, and I'm man, I'm scared to death, you know, and I was at soundcheck and I was testing out my mic and I started singing Whenever You Come Around, a song of mine. And Don walks over to me and goes, what is that song? I said, what's the song I had out years ago and did real well for me. And midnight, midnight, he goes, can we work it up and do it? And I said, well, Don, with all due respect, I'd rather not. He said, why? I said, look, what I'm getting ready to do, isn't going to be easy. I said, I don't want to, I don't want to give these people one more reason to not like me. Yeah. I don't want them out there saying I didn't come here to hear Vince Gill songs. I came here to hear Eagle songs. And I said, my ego is such that we don't need to worry about that. You know, I'm fine to do your world and leave it at that. He goes, man, I really respect that.

Speaker 2:
[75:00] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[75:01] And so that's kind of been my mantra. And I was, you know, I could tell the people, I could feel their apprehension when I walked out there. I was getting ready to sing whatever first song I sang. I don't remember if it was Take It To The Limit or what, but, and Randy was actually there. Randy Meisner was there that night to see the show, my first one. And I told him, I said, I'm gonna try to do your song Justice. He said, you'll do great. And so I could feel everybody in the crowd just on edge. And I got through a verse and a chorus of the first song and I could really literally feel everybody go, a deep breath and everybody was, it's gonna be fine. You know, and for the most part, once people experience it, hear it, you know, they're kind of okay with it.

Speaker 2:
[75:51] Yeah. Well, you guys have been playing quite a bit at this fear. What is that like?

Speaker 1:
[75:56] Oh, I jokingly tell people, it's the most people I've ever been ignored by because they're all watching the show. They're all watching the bells and whistles and the visuals and as they should because they're unbelievable. And you know, going in that that's gonna be the lion's share of what people are focused on. So it's been, it's been really awesome. We've done 54 shows in there. We have a few more to go. And it's a, you can't really explain it to people. The magnitude of the size of it, the scope of it and all that stuff and how big it really is. It's the entire half of the arena is the content. There's nothing hanging. It's all, it's the whole arena is the content of the show and it's off the chain. It's a blast.

Speaker 2:
[76:43] Yeah. Well, I saw in the headlines, they're talking to bringing one over here to Nashville.

Speaker 1:
[76:47] Yeah, I've heard that. I'm not sure that I believe that, but I don't know what happens.

Speaker 2:
[76:53] Maybe you'll get to work a little closer.

Speaker 1:
[76:54] Maybe I'll get to open it up, but I don't believe anything I see on that phone anymore.

Speaker 2:
[77:00] No, it's crazy with AI and all these AI stories and articles. In fact, this morning we were watching some old interviews of yours and stuff, just getting prepared and a lot of that slop came across YouTube. You know, I was telling my cousin Vince would never say something like that. You know what they said you were saying on there. So this is your warning, folks. Don't believe half of what he said.

Speaker 1:
[77:23] Don't believe everything. You know, it's hard. You know, I'll be scrolling through there and I'll see something about somebody else. I go, oh, they didn't do that, did they? I go, well, no, they didn't. It's all BS, you know, they said the same thing about me two weeks ago. So it's the same story. Just plug in a different artist, you know. But it's sad that the truth has lost its way. Yeah, it is. That's what hurts me the most is where are you going to go to find the truth?

Speaker 2:
[77:54] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[77:54] Always tell them, try a Merle Haggard song.

Speaker 2:
[77:56] Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's sad to see, because I saw one about Bill Anderson, whispering Bill Anderson, talking about the guy, the guys he hated most in Nashville. And I was thinking, whisper to Bill, nicest guy you'd ever want to meet in your life. He wouldn't say a foul word about anybody. But you got some some really interesting things going on right now musically with these EPs that you're releasing.

Speaker 1:
[78:28] Yeah, it's all kind of centered around the thought process of me leaving home 50 years ago. I thought here's a neat tag to all this 50 years from home. These are the first 50 years I've been away from home, have led me here to all this music. And the reason I think I'm taking on so much is that I, you know, it's not lost on me that I'm 69 years old. I don't have as much time left to be creative as I've had to this point. So all this stuff matters so much deeper to me because, you know, at some point I'll wheeze like an old woman when I start singing, you know, and that'll be a rough one to accept, but you kind of know it's coming. So I'm just trying to bank as much stuff as I can while I've still got my faculties pretty good shape. You know, I like my voice now better than I ever have. The way I sing right now, I like better than even the days of hits and selling a bunch of records and all that stuff. My voice is better to me now. My songs are better to me now than they were. And my guitar playing is better than it ever has been. So those are the things that I do. And if I see myself incrementally getting better in my own eyes and my own ears, then I should take advantage of it while I still can. And it's just been a fun way to get a lot of these songs that I've written, maybe 175 songs in the last three or four years. Wow. And that's a lot. I'm not a prolific songwriter. For the longest time, I would write for a record and then cut a record with all the songs that I'd written and a few extras and whatever would go away. But through all that creativity, I said, I've got to find a way to... Everybody's so driven by content. They want more and more and more and more information. And everybody knows that once you scroll on past, you're done. But if you can get them to stop and enjoy what you got and find something that they like, it's still special to try to come up with something that people will respond to. That's all I'm doing is writing songs that mean stuff to me. I'm tackling some subjects that most people don't tackle in writing songs. And I figure if I tell a story about abuse, but I tell it with a little bit of grace and no judgment and not pointing fingers and trying to scold somebody, I don't have any of that in me. I'm a live and let live guy. So if I can tell a story about a tough subject, but not do it in a way that puts you on edge or makes you feel attacked or any of that kind of stuff, then I think it's fair to have conversations about just about anything.

Speaker 2:
[81:26] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[81:26] You know? Yeah. Grace, you need me to kill the cat.

Speaker 2:
[81:33] The kitty is...

Speaker 1:
[81:34] Is she... Just push her away.

Speaker 2:
[81:38] She's fine. She got a little playful there.

Speaker 1:
[81:42] She will bite you.

Speaker 2:
[81:45] But you're still releasing all that through MCA. You've been with MCA all this time.

Speaker 1:
[81:49] Yeah. I just signed a lifetime record deal with them.

Speaker 2:
[81:52] Wow.

Speaker 1:
[81:53] Which is pretty neat. I never heard of such a thing. And it's just a great, I think, tribute to them and a tribute to me for loyalty. You know, I've been there 37 years.

Speaker 2:
[82:02] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[82:03] And grateful. Grateful that I had a home and a place to support what it was I tried to accomplish. And so I have no desire to find a better record company or a different deal or make more money or what have you. Just I'm grateful for the loyalty both ways.

Speaker 2:
[82:20] Yeah. Yeah. A lifetime record deal is unheard of, but it's also kind of unheard of for somebody.

Speaker 1:
[82:25] It may not last that long.

Speaker 2:
[82:31] It's not heard of very often for somebody to have that long of a period with a record label. So that's, that's pretty incredible that you've been able to maintain that relationship.

Speaker 1:
[82:42] Yeah. I mean, I've done my best to try to not burn bridges since I've lived here for the last 43 years. And I made my first trip here in 1975 to make a record with the Bluegrass Alliance. And we came to Nashville and made a record and fell in love with the town and came back year after year after year doing gigs with different bands, played at the Exit Inn with Ricky in 1976 and played the, played the Opera House in 1975 with the Alliance for a Bill Monroe Bluegrass Festival Show he did there. And so I've been coming here for a good long time.

Speaker 2:
[83:18] Yeah, yeah. Well, I tell you, on top of being Vince Gill, the artist, you're touring with the Eagles and doing your own shows and recording these EPs and writing with so many people. I saw you just, you were just talking about writing with Jake Worthington and just released something that Belle France was a writer on, who's just an incredible talent, new talent, new talent to people that you're getting to write with. So for you to make time to sit down and have a conversation with me, I so appreciate you for doing this. And it has been a joy. And usually this is the point where I ask people, where can people go to see what you're doing? But unless people are living under a rock, I think everybody knows.

Speaker 1:
[84:03] I'm easy to find.

Speaker 2:
[84:04] Yeah, you're fairly easy to find.

Speaker 1:
[84:07] You're at the Opry, the Sphere, or in your hometown.

Speaker 2:
[84:12] Yeah, well, I'm not going to keep you any longer, Vince, but I just, this has been an absolute joy of a lifetime.

Speaker 1:
[84:17] Thanks, Dillon.

Speaker 2:
[84:18] I've been a fan of yours since I was a kid, as long as I can remember. And so this has just been an honor and a privilege to get to sit down and talk about your life and career in such detail. And hopefully the listeners have gone away knowing something new about you.

Speaker 1:
[84:33] I doubt it. I've got the same old damn stories. All we know is what we know. Appreciate your time.

Speaker 2:
[84:41] Well, I appreciate it and hopefully we'll get to do it again someday.

Speaker 1:
[84:44] Anytime you want. Thanks, Dave.