transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] Ridiculous History is a production of IHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you as always so much for tuning in. That's our super producer, Mr. Max Freytrain Williams.

Speaker 2:
[00:34] Hello, I'm still in the same room as y'all.

Speaker 1:
[00:36] Yes, they call me Ben Bowlin for tax purposes here in Baha Mar.

Speaker 3:
[00:40] Did you do your taxes?

Speaker 1:
[00:42] Oh, is this a legal inquiry, the joke that never gets old?

Speaker 4:
[00:45] Yes, it is.

Speaker 1:
[00:46] That is Mr. Noel Brown. We are joined again with our special returning guest, one of our closest friends, brother in podcast arms, one and only, Mr. Matt Two Hands, Frederick.

Speaker 4:
[00:58] Matt, the tax man, Frederick.

Speaker 3:
[01:00] My ex accidentally claimed my son as a dependent this year. She's not supposed to this year, this past year. So I tried to send in my taxes and guess what? They got sent back. So currently in extension period, boys. Had to pay my taxes already because that's what they make you do, my estimated amount, but now I've got to send in all my paperwork.

Speaker 4:
[01:23] I've always let the ex claim the kid. That's just that. I don't know. I guess I'm just nice like that.

Speaker 1:
[01:26] Well, it's also it's so weird to think about how the IRS works in the United States, where they know how much money you're supposed to pay, but you have to do it's like you're in a toxic relationship where they're like, oh, you should guess why you guess what it is. Can you guess why I'm angry and do it wrong?

Speaker 2:
[01:43] It's not going to correct you. Like, no, no, no, no, no, no. You gave us too much money or you're asking for too little back. No, that can't correct you. It's only if we make the error in their way that it's going to be, you know, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[01:54] It's ridiculous and taxation and big government have always been a thorn in the sides of the average person, so much so that it's driven some people in the past to acts of piracy.

Speaker 3:
[02:05] Guys, a whole group of like five people just walked past where we are and we'll talk about where we are. They all had entire pineapples filled with what looked like alcoholic beverages.

Speaker 4:
[02:15] Wait a minute, what, an alcohol?

Speaker 1:
[02:17] Because in our usual podcast studio, in our usual podcast studio, that would be very abnormal. But here, it's weird that we don't have those big hollow pineapple booze drinks because we are here again in Baha Mar, a beautiful resort. We've been here for a couple of days. What are some of your favorite things you guys have done so far?

Speaker 4:
[02:39] Well, I'm pleased to announce I did not get molested by a flamingo, but I was forced to hold space with them by our dear friend Matt Frederick, and I'm glad I did. I'm glad I did.

Speaker 1:
[02:51] You were forced?

Speaker 4:
[02:52] Yeah, Matt really twisted my arm about it.

Speaker 2:
[02:54] But while I was like, no, buddy, you can hide behind me. That's all good. The flamingos. The best thing I would say was the flamingo is getting all up and personal and weird on my leg hair. The worst thing was stepping on a bee. I did step on a bee, but thankfully, I'm not allergic to bees.

Speaker 4:
[03:07] Was it a tropical bee?

Speaker 2:
[03:08] I don't know. You were there.

Speaker 4:
[03:10] Yeah, they looked like a regular bee.

Speaker 2:
[03:12] It was really a bee.

Speaker 4:
[03:13] Nothing to write home about them.

Speaker 3:
[03:15] Well, I'm looking at a picture of the beautiful Baha Mar right behind us where we're recording.

Speaker 4:
[03:20] Why don't you look at the pictures? Look out the window, man.

Speaker 3:
[03:21] Well, because I can see the entirety of it from the sea and it's gorgeous. The scale here, it's hard to even really understand how many different buildings and restaurants and don't forget the casino.

Speaker 1:
[03:37] Where I made so much money and my girlfriend took all of it.

Speaker 4:
[03:40] Yeah, that's what they call a humble brag.

Speaker 1:
[03:43] There's nothing humble about it, man. She got me.

Speaker 2:
[03:45] Am I at three steaks eaten already or am I at two? They've all been delicious.

Speaker 3:
[03:49] Yeah, man. I think you're up there.

Speaker 4:
[03:51] Matt's up on steak, I'm down on money, Ben's up on money and maybe even on steak.

Speaker 2:
[03:55] I've been to the same restaurant so many times, they now know me. They were saying hi to me this morning. I think they came out of the way.

Speaker 4:
[04:00] Max's way.

Speaker 1:
[04:01] Yeah, at the Swimming Big which we've been hanging out at as well.

Speaker 2:
[04:06] Very condition friendly.

Speaker 3:
[04:07] Have we all been watching SNL UK?

Speaker 1:
[04:10] I haven't seen the latest one.

Speaker 4:
[04:11] I saw that they did a Black Snape riff.

Speaker 3:
[04:15] Okay, they made a song, felt very much like the Lonely Island songs back in the day. It was all about British pubs in vacation areas. In Spain, in Ibiza. I saw, I was like, what is the swimming pig thing Max keeps talking about? Went by and went, oh my God, this is that song.

Speaker 4:
[04:34] This is that song.

Speaker 1:
[04:36] It is a British themed pub and the food is great. So, what do you say, guys? Let's get into it. Everybody check out our earlier episode on some pirates you may not be familiar with, and tune in because in part two, we're moving outward across the world, literally around the world. We're not talking about the Caribbean. We are talking about the Far East. Guys, did you know the world's wealthiest, most successful pirate in all of human history is a Chinese woman known as Chin Shih.

Speaker 4:
[05:16] No, I mean, I saw the name pop up in my research and I was very unfamiliar and I'm so glad that you picked this one, Ben, because you're really great at the Chinese pronunciations.

Speaker 2:
[05:25] I think the only reason I know who she is, is I believe she is a great person you can get in Civilization VI. She's a great admiral.

Speaker 1:
[05:31] Oh, there's also a character based on her in the Pirates of the Caribbean franchise.

Speaker 4:
[05:39] Really?

Speaker 1:
[05:39] Yeah, based on a real person, kind of loosely. I'm just going to say Pirates of the Caribbean.

Speaker 2:
[05:44] What? The Karen Knightley character?

Speaker 1:
[05:46] No.

Speaker 2:
[05:47] That's the only one I know.

Speaker 1:
[05:48] It's actually Johnny Depp's character. You have to think about the subtext.

Speaker 3:
[05:51] Amazing. Just for-

Speaker 4:
[05:53] He's a chameleon, that Johnny Depp.

Speaker 1:
[05:54] Sure is. He is actually a chameleon.

Speaker 3:
[05:57] Can you spell her names for anybody that wants to look it up right now?

Speaker 1:
[06:00] Sure. Yeah, the street name is Chin Shih, so that would be C-H-I-N-S-H-I-H. We'll see why that's a nickname. She's also known more formally as Zheng Yi Sao. So, Z-H-E-N-G space Y-I space Sao. She did not start off as a pirate. Well, I guess there are very few people who were born as pirate. Like, can you imagine your kid is born and the doctor says, now you've got a healthy baby boy, but there is a condition we want to tell you about. And the kid already has an eye patch and like a peg leg and a bird.

Speaker 3:
[06:38] Yep, that's it. Big old hat.

Speaker 1:
[06:40] You can live a full life of piracy. You'll just have to get them a boat. Certain medical condition. So, okay, this person comes to us in the beginning of the 18th century. And at first, she is what we would diplomatically describe as a sex worker in a floating brothel. Weird, but it's what it sounds like. Like the last time we were over in Thailand, or the first time we were in Thailand, we saw floating markets, which are essentially communities and cities linked by pretty narrow waterways. Oh, you can buy a house there too.

Speaker 4:
[07:15] Heck yeah.

Speaker 3:
[07:16] Did we all watch the show Firefly?

Speaker 2:
[07:18] Yes.

Speaker 4:
[07:19] It reminds me of the Space Pirate Show.

Speaker 3:
[07:22] Yes, it reminds me of the character you get introduced to in the first episode, the pilot, where I think they refer to her as a diplomat maybe, but she is on a spaceship. It is, for all intents and purposes, functions like a brothel, essentially, but also as diplomatic relations in some way.

Speaker 2:
[07:43] Monica, does anyone know how to say her last name?

Speaker 4:
[07:48] No. Different?

Speaker 1:
[07:49] Well, we all know the person.

Speaker 3:
[07:51] Yes, it just reminds me of that.

Speaker 1:
[07:53] Like a space court is on.

Speaker 3:
[07:54] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[07:55] So this person, Zheng Yi Sao, is not that different. She is working in the city of Canton, in this floating brothel, and she runs into a guy named Chang Ai, or Chang the First. He is already a pirate. He's a big deal pirate. He's been terrorizing the South China Sea during the Qing Dynasty. And this is a bizarre romcom, bizarre romance. So Chang hears about this lady, right? They hear she's good in bed, but they also hear she's great in business. And so, yeah, right? Double threat. So he seeks her out at this floating market, and he says, oh, crap, you're all so hot, and you're good at business. Oh, and to your point, Matt, he finds out that she is using the secrets she learns sleeping with clients to blackmail them, to get money from them. They're wealthy, they're politically connected.

Speaker 4:
[08:51] Tale as old as time.

Speaker 1:
[08:52] Tale as old as time. Song as old as rhyme.

Speaker 4:
[08:55] And that was certainly a power move that women had in those days, where you get close to powerful men, you have them in compromising situations, you were able to get dirt on them that you can then use to your benefits.

Speaker 1:
[09:09] Especially in a patriarchal society, right?

Speaker 3:
[09:12] I wonder if they compiled a bunch of files or something and then blockaded maybe another country to prevent those files from coming out or something.

Speaker 1:
[09:20] Or maybe they got dirt on people before they became part of an administration they weren't qualified for.

Speaker 3:
[09:26] Oh, interesting. That feels like, I don't know, it feels familiar.

Speaker 1:
[09:29] Max, please roll your eyes less palpably. Everything is politics. Everything is history. Shout out to Ed Prez.

Speaker 2:
[09:38] I really wish that my facial expression could have been caught right there. I just looked at it and I was like, oh my God. I can hit y'all right now.

Speaker 3:
[09:47] I'm sorry, Max.

Speaker 2:
[09:47] It's not worked, I can't.

Speaker 3:
[09:49] I know this is Ridiculous History.

Speaker 1:
[09:51] No, no, it's also all things ridiculous.

Speaker 2:
[09:53] That's within arm reach of me.

Speaker 1:
[09:55] Okay, you guys, play nice. This is a rom-com kind of thing. Zheng Yi Sao is about 26 years old. It's 1801 when this guy comes and says, I want to marry you because you're hot and good at business. How old? She's 26. Wow. Okay, okay. So nothing epsteiny about it.

Speaker 3:
[10:14] Well, no, I just mean that's so in my mind, that's so young to already be so established and understand a business so well, and then to be so successful at it.

Speaker 1:
[10:25] That's all. Yeah, I hear you, man. And unfortunately, the implication is that she probably started early. So this guy comes here, has a very weird marriage proposal, and he finds out the hard way that, yeah, she is that good at business because she says, okay, Cheng, I'll marry you if you give me equal control of all of your ships. And he had already united multiple rival Chinese pirate gangs. So he was running an empire. So it's kind of like if you went to, it was a good example, I guess for the boats, Richard Branson, if someone went to marry Richard Branson, and they said, I'll do it, but you have to give me all of your planes.

Speaker 4:
[11:07] I'm going to need a prenup.

Speaker 1:
[11:08] And all your boats. And so Cheng said yes. And so...

Speaker 3:
[11:16] Can I just point out, that makes him a really dangerous person to the established governments that are operating out there, right?

Speaker 1:
[11:22] Yes.

Speaker 3:
[11:22] We know with folks like Fred Hampton, like how dangerous it is when there are disconnected groups who kind of want the same thing or fight for the same thing.

Speaker 4:
[11:31] You're talking about the Black Panthers?

Speaker 3:
[11:32] Yes, I am. When they...

Speaker 1:
[11:34] You know, I need the gangs.

Speaker 3:
[11:35] Yes. When somebody or the organizations, you know, when somebody can come together, can bring people together like that, that is very dangerous to the establishment.

Speaker 1:
[11:44] And how about this? Because I know we've got to be fair. How about instead of me saying gangs, we say organizations, some of which were gangs?

Speaker 3:
[11:53] Yes. No, no, you're right. You're right. That is essentially how it works.

Speaker 1:
[11:57] It's somewhere just like let's give lunch to school kids, right? It's a wide spectrum and it takes a real diplomat to unite those stakeholders. And at first, everything is working out because Zheng Yi Sao is all about this. She says, OK, I'm tired of this floating market. I'll help run the new family business. Six years into their marriage, her husband passes away. He's only 42. We don't know much about how he passed away. Like we don't know if he was killed by a tsunami at sea, if he was poisoned, maybe by his wife. We just don't have a lot of information.

Speaker 3:
[12:35] But I'm really surprised by that. Just I feel like that guy would have gone out in some epic battle.

Speaker 1:
[12:39] Lays of glory.

Speaker 3:
[12:40] Well, yeah, because again, like the government somewhere would have said, this guy can't stand.

Speaker 1:
[12:45] Like the Qing dynasty definitely didn't like him. So why didn't they get him first? But regardless of what happens, this leaves the up and coming pirate queen in a very precarious position because there's a Confucian based patriarchical society. And this is where she starts to earn her nickname that we mentioned, Chin Shih. It translates to Chang's widow. So that's a morbid nickname.

Speaker 4:
[13:12] That's it, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[13:13] That's where every time someone meets you casually, they're reminding you that your husband is dead.

Speaker 4:
[13:19] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[13:20] They're like, oh, you're the widow lady.

Speaker 4:
[13:21] Well, that is interesting though, because you do often hear those kind of dark nicknames associated with women in crime, usually something like the black widow or the like, you know what I mean?

Speaker 3:
[13:32] More competitive eating.

Speaker 4:
[13:33] Also true.

Speaker 1:
[13:34] Yes, thank you for that. Sonia Thomas.

Speaker 3:
[13:36] I always play that out. I can't imagine. I don't know. There's probably something really scary about that. I feel like with some of the most successful pirate years, I'm thinking about Blackbeard in particular, some of the folks who had the bigger ships.

Speaker 4:
[13:53] And the bigger beards.

Speaker 3:
[13:54] Well, if you had a crew and you looked out and you saw a particular flag or you saw a ship that you, oh, I know that's associated with the widow, that would be a form of terror that strikes way before the ship gets anywhere near your ships.

Speaker 1:
[14:10] Yeah, they had their own version of the Jolly Roger, right?

Speaker 3:
[14:13] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[14:13] That kind of thing.

Speaker 2:
[14:14] Yeah. You know, one of these things to where it's like, maybe I don't even want to fight, maybe we should just surrender because we don't want to get Charles Vane right now.

Speaker 3:
[14:19] Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1:
[14:21] Well, if it's Charles Vane, then that's like the Reavers in Firefly or Serenity. You're like, okay, guys, I think maybe we just-

Speaker 2:
[14:28] Let's just say Firefly, we don't talk about Serenity. They had to end the story quickly. I get it, but nowhere is good as Firefly. Let's be frank here, let's get off on a tangent.

Speaker 1:
[14:38] Sure.

Speaker 2:
[14:39] In a world of remakes that are terrible and no one wants, how have we never gotten a season two of Firefly?

Speaker 3:
[14:44] Wait, you guys do-

Speaker 1:
[14:45] It's coming.

Speaker 4:
[14:46] It's animated. It's one and made. Okay.

Speaker 1:
[14:50] That's fine.

Speaker 3:
[14:51] Hey, that might be incredible.

Speaker 1:
[14:53] It might be the next Flight of Dragons.

Speaker 2:
[14:54] I'll tell you this right now, people talk about, they want to clear up Scare Movie, I want to clear up Scare Anime. Okay. That would be excellent. After watching the Nier Automata anime, I want to clear up Scare Anime.

Speaker 1:
[15:04] You're going to want to anime at this one as well, guys. I love that we're mentioning Blackbeard, because after her husband dies and she gets this ghoulish nickname, Chin Shih starts commanding over 1800 pirate ships.

Speaker 3:
[15:25] What?

Speaker 1:
[15:26] An estimated 80,000 pirates. For comparison to Blackbeard, who is also a very successful pirate, he commanded four ships and 300 pirates.

Speaker 3:
[15:37] Yeah, that's inconceivable.

Speaker 1:
[15:40] It's definitely egregious. That's Navy at that point. Yeah, very much so.

Speaker 2:
[15:43] Maybe not at that point.

Speaker 3:
[15:44] That's Navy now. That's like, oh my God. That's most of the ocean. There's one, there's at least one of those ships out there just checking things out.

Speaker 1:
[15:54] Yeah, and again, a lot of these are going to be sloops, right? They're going to be smaller, but they've got some big boys in there. And if you look at authors like Laura Suk Dongcom, the author of Pirate Women, The Princesses, Prostitutes and Privateers, Who Ruled the Seven Seas, you will see that a lot of historians call Chin Shih the greatest pirate who ever lived because she pirated longer than most people in a career that has, you know...

Speaker 3:
[16:22] Drop off rate.

Speaker 1:
[16:22] Drop off rate of attrition. She makes more money. She ultimately will get to this. She ultimately gets away from the game just fine, which is something that is like winning the lottery thrice. So, how did she in a society that really just dumps on women, how did she succeed in what's already a male-dominated industry? She had a really strict code of laws. We're talking earlier about the dark side of piracy in episode one, right? All the horrific sexual abuse and assault that would occur. She had special laws about this. She said, any pirate who is caught giving his own orders or disobeying the orders of a superior has to be beheaded on the spot.

Speaker 3:
[17:13] Wow.

Speaker 1:
[17:14] Which is, this is not a three strikes kind of HR policy. And if they had female captives and a pirate assaulted one of those female captives under any circumstances, that pirate is also put to death. If the sex between the two is consensual, then they are both put to death.

Speaker 3:
[17:34] Wow.

Speaker 1:
[17:35] Yeah, the captives do. I'm not saying she was a nice lady.

Speaker 3:
[17:38] Well, that's really interesting. I was reading a bit before we came in here today about relationships amongst pirates and how complicated it could be, but also how normal it could be where if you, and usually you would have a, at least in what I was reading about, Caribbean pirates, you would have a, often a man who goes out on a ship as a part of a crew, who would have a wife and perhaps many children back somewhere wherever he was, and just the man-

Speaker 2:
[18:10] They'll maybe bring up Assassin's Creed again.

Speaker 3:
[18:12] Well, no, I remember.

Speaker 1:
[18:13] But yeah, it's like you got your shore wife and your boat wife.

Speaker 3:
[18:16] Well, but then on the boat, it was very difficult, at least what I, again, like I only know what I've read thus far, but it seemed like it was very difficult to keep women on ships like that because of that chaos factor of having a bunch of men at sea on a ship together. There were often horrific things that occurred. Having a punishment system set up for that, that is that strict, especially if it's a consenting, perhaps even couple or two people that are attempting to become a couple while they're at sea. And I wonder why that was so frowned upon.

Speaker 1:
[18:55] I think it was her reacting to the norm. That shows us how bad the problem was to be enacted with that severity. It's kind of like if you ever see a weird sign, like you walk into a gas station and you see a sign that says, you know, no shirt, no shoes, no drunk horses. Then you know that something happened with a horse at some point. And probably often enough that they eventually threw up their hands and they said, we got to put it on the sign, guys.

Speaker 3:
[19:24] You don't see those anymore. And I really wish it was different.

Speaker 1:
[19:30] We wish that there was less of a sobriety movement among horses. Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[19:33] I mean, nobody wants drunk horses around.

Speaker 1:
[19:39] There's also, yeah, this was called the Red Flag Fleet. We're talking about three years, a very short career of piracy on the high seas. And during this time, Chin Shih beefs with everybody. She fights the Qing dynasty government. So she fights the government of China, beats them. She fights the Portuguese Navy, beats them. She fights the East India Company, beats them.

Speaker 2:
[20:02] Whoa, that's some impressive stuff there.

Speaker 1:
[20:03] They all try to smash down, like you said, Max and Navy, and they're not able to pull it off. But the Chinese government, just like the colonial governments in the Caribbean, eventually they throw up their hands and they just say, hey, lady, look, this is nuts. We will forgive everything. We'll give you amnesty if you just stop pirating all over us like you're pirating all over our butts and our faces. We just can't take it.

Speaker 2:
[20:37] That's like the blackjack tables right there.

Speaker 4:
[20:41] Leave it all on the BJ table.

Speaker 2:
[20:45] Noel left his pot on the BJ table.

Speaker 3:
[20:47] I'm sorry. I was trying to be short and get out an emergency message. Do we know roughly where she and her naval forces are operating? Is it what we would consider the South China Sea in that area of the Pacific? I'm trying to imagine how much water you could cover with that many ships.

Speaker 1:
[21:08] Right. This is coastal. I think it was up and down that eastern coast of the area. That also meant that it was hard to catch her, maybe to figure out where she was with all these ships.

Speaker 3:
[21:23] I wonder if she had, we talked last episode about the Bahamas and Nassau in particular in a certain time during piracy where Nassau was kind of the headquarters and the place to go. I wonder if there was a place like that, in an island somewhere, an island chain.

Speaker 1:
[21:41] Oh, I'm sure there are lots of hidey holes there too, especially when you go around the island areas and when you get to places that were adjacent to trade routes. Like, if they went, I don't know if they went as far south as the Strait of Malacca, but that would have been a huge money maker. And so they couldn't beat her. They couldn't beat her. They offered her amnesty and she accepted and she went into retirement with all her treasure and was never real, we don't really know what she did afterwards. She just flipped the switch, lived a quiet life. She died at the age of 69 in 1844, which is so unusual for that time and for a pirate. She was like the best pirate.

Speaker 2:
[22:28] To live a full life as a pirate is not something that happens. I can't think of any pirate that lives longer than, I don't know, 40, which is usually the story is they became pirate in 38 in that case.

Speaker 3:
[22:37] Oh, there was some pirate I was reading about, Noel. I think he was one of the guys you were potentially going to talk about, John.

Speaker 4:
[22:45] Yes, John Avery, or I think Henry John Avery. He had a couple of different aliases, right?

Speaker 3:
[22:49] Ultimately Avery, and he was another one of these people that he pulled off some insane attack where he made the equivalent of several hundred million dollars on this one attack on several ships and then just did the retirement thing and just kind of checked out and got out of there. He apparently died like a year later, but just this concept that you could actually hit the jackpot, the casino, you could hit the jackpot and then be done and then live for that long with whatever that wealth brings you.

Speaker 2:
[23:24] Well, to jump in here, I mean, this is kind of similar to what we're talking about with Charles Vane about how it wasn't really... Look, obviously the money and stuff was important, but there was more going on there. I do feel like when we think about pirates, we obviously think about the Nassau Pirates, there was a lot more going on there, freeing themselves from the privateer life, the conscription, stuff like that. Maybe it is more common in other examples where it is more like, in your case, almost a heist. I'm pulling a heist. This one, she inherited an empire and she's like, you know what, I'm going to retire. Why not? I don't think these guys in Nassau had retirement plans. I think we're thinking right now.

Speaker 1:
[24:02] A lot were just desperate to escape slavery. Yes.

Speaker 3:
[24:06] Oh man, that's such an important factor. When she retired, did that empire continue on without her?

Speaker 1:
[24:14] Yeah. It's similar to how the Mongol Empire began to splinter after the death of Genghis Khan. So when they didn't have that leader, and other people were getting offered amnesty as well. They were trying to avoid the long brutal arm of the law. This is what, Max, I think you would like to see an anime of, right? Of Cheng's widow on the high seas. For now, you're going to have to settle for the powerful Mistress Qing, one of the nine pirate lords in the Pirates of the Caribbean. I mean, do we want to keep going? We got one more female Chinese pirate. This is much more recent too.

Speaker 4:
[24:55] By all means.

Speaker 1:
[24:55] Yeah?

Speaker 4:
[24:56] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[24:58] So nicknames are cool. Everybody loves a cool nickname. I'm addicted to nicknames. One of the favorites we found in our research for this series is Huang Two Guns Bamei.

Speaker 4:
[25:09] That's Nat's nickname.

Speaker 1:
[25:11] Nat both have. Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[25:15] Two Guns.

Speaker 1:
[25:16] Two Guns. Or Mistress Two Guns or the Two Gun Empress.

Speaker 3:
[25:21] Are we talking like blunderbuss or are we talking what type of rifle?

Speaker 1:
[25:25] This is way more recent.

Speaker 3:
[25:26] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[25:26] Oh. The CIA is involved in this.

Speaker 3:
[25:28] Oh, wow.

Speaker 1:
[25:29] So, okay, she is born to a peasant family near Shanghai and she is a criminal from the jump. You know, like we said, babies can't be born pirates, but if babies can be born criminals, it's kind of our culprit or this is our suspect. She became the leader of a local gang that was already raiding coastal areas called Jiangshu and Shijian. And she got captured by the police. She was able to escape execution, but this is occurring during the outbreak of what we call the Second Sino-Japanese War, which also doesn't get talked about too often in a lot of textbooks, at least here in the States.

Speaker 3:
[26:13] I have no idea about this.

Speaker 1:
[26:15] 1937 to 1945. So this is happening during World War II.

Speaker 3:
[26:20] Whoa.

Speaker 1:
[26:20] And it's longer than World War II. Yeah, that's how recent it is. So because of this war, she gets an opportunity to expand the brand. She says, look, I'm a bandit, I'm a pirate, I'm a criminal, but the nationalist military is recruiting people just like me because we're good at violence. So imagine if the US Army at some point said, hey, instead of just conscripting kids out of high school, just check out the prisons. That's kind of what happens.

Speaker 3:
[26:55] Inmates run the asylum, anybody? Killer Mike.

Speaker 4:
[26:59] Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1:
[27:01] We got to get over to Bankhead Seafood, you guys.

Speaker 4:
[27:04] I don't know about Bankhead Seafood.

Speaker 3:
[27:05] Me neither.

Speaker 1:
[27:06] Mike co-owns it. He co-owns it with TI. Okay, so together, we figured it out.

Speaker 3:
[27:13] We got there, guys. We did it.

Speaker 1:
[27:15] Yeah, we'll just hit up Mike and go hang out with him, I think, at the Seafood spot.

Speaker 3:
[27:21] Killer TI Payne. That's the way to do it. So it's like all three as a triumvirate.

Speaker 1:
[27:26] There we go. TI Payne.

Speaker 3:
[27:29] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[27:30] It took me a second. Now she is commanding people who qualify as troops, and they are still doing all their other stuff. They're smuggling, they're doing piracy, they're doing illegal trade, and Huang and her followers are recruited by the military to fight against the Japanese invasion. But then she becomes a propaganda gold mine, because they're like, okay, so how do we tell the public that we just are hiring a bunch of criminals? And they say, well, we got to re-brand, we got to pivot, we got to get some good PR in here, and we are going to make a new personality. Now, we're not going to talk about her past. She is a patriotic woman, right? We're going to treat her like a... What's that saying we used to have? This guy's a shark, but he's our shark. They were like, Huang is...

Speaker 4:
[28:32] You're talking about Colin Byrne.

Speaker 2:
[28:34] He's our shark.

Speaker 1:
[28:36] But as we know, he has not yet been convicted of piracy. Do we want to keep that?

Speaker 2:
[28:43] I love it.

Speaker 1:
[28:45] We'll keep the part where I say, do we want to keep that as well? The tension in the room rose. But yeah, no pirates in our gig so far. Anyway, the nationalist government, as we know, in this nationalist-communist war, they retreated to Taiwan. And then Huang gets into the secret service and does guerrilla warfare against the communist forces that are winning the battle, right? And so in an effort to appease this shark, the nationalist authorities give Huang land. They give her a garment factory. They give her her own factory. And they give her a bunch of money. And they do everything they can to handle all these things. Other criminals are not getting this stuff, by the way, at all. They're just not getting murdered. The reason, guys, that they're kissing her butt so much is because if they don't, they're certain that she is going to start collaborating with the Central Intelligence Agency, who's already been kind of reaching out to them and being like, hey, you're pretty good at violence. You don't like communist. We should hang out.

Speaker 3:
[29:54] Hi. I know we're just at a grocery store, but I'm with the CIA.

Speaker 1:
[30:00] Exactly. Yeah. I like your garment factory. I factor in some things myself.

Speaker 3:
[30:07] That seems like a really dangerous person that if you could turn them, that would be a very dangerous person to just be operating. Maybe the concept is just, I was going to say distract. We know time is the most valuable resource, right? If she's got a garment factory to run and a bunch of other stuff to manage, we'll give her hobbies. Well, then you're no longer thinking so much on the daily about all the acts of warfare that you're going to do for a government contract or something.

Speaker 1:
[30:39] Kind of like when you have a really energetic kid and you think, I need to get this one addicted to Animal Crossing.

Speaker 3:
[30:44] Oh, God. Don't do that, everybody.

Speaker 2:
[30:46] Everybody can help you now.

Speaker 1:
[30:48] There it is. Max is plugged in. So the government also promotes Huang as almost like a Rosie the Riveter figure while they're doing this. So they're giving her fame as well. And they're saying, look, not only can women participate in war zone work, but they can do that on top of managing the household. And then people start questioning the narrative. So these films come out and these various research pieces come out that say, oh, oh, snap, you guys, this lady is a pirate, like a real pirate.

Speaker 2:
[31:21] Like this is not like some person who would normally be made up as like, oh, this patriotic thing. No, she's a pirate. Pirates are generally not that moral and popular.

Speaker 1:
[31:32] And so then there was a narrative war happening.

Speaker 4:
[31:33] You're saying they don't have scruples?

Speaker 2:
[31:35] Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

Speaker 1:
[31:37] They have a scruper too.

Speaker 2:
[31:39] There are some.

Speaker 1:
[31:40] There are a few. There's some honor among thieves.

Speaker 4:
[31:43] Well, that's what we were talking about earlier. Because there is a certain pirate code.

Speaker 1:
[31:46] Yes, yes. That may vary depending on the ship, right?

Speaker 2:
[31:50] That's also true. Don't leave your phone on the BJ table.

Speaker 4:
[31:52] Yeah, and keep your cutlass clean.

Speaker 1:
[31:55] Yes.

Speaker 3:
[31:55] Really?

Speaker 4:
[31:56] Yes, sir.

Speaker 2:
[31:56] Especially at the BJ table.

Speaker 1:
[31:58] Max, get ready for it.

Speaker 4:
[31:59] We're being serious here. No, there were very specific rules that governed life aboard these ships. And some of them had to do with keeping your outfits and your weapons tight.

Speaker 3:
[32:10] Oh, wow.

Speaker 2:
[32:12] Oh, yeah. Personal hygiene was very important on ships. I know we're going to have a fun tangent here, but if you're stuck on the ship for a long time, there's many stories I came across about mutinies because the ship stank so bad or the captain stank so bad.

Speaker 1:
[32:23] Or disease. You know, one person gets something that's transmissible by air, then everybody's screwed.

Speaker 4:
[32:29] Important question, guys. What's the opposite of scurvy when you have too much vitamin C?

Speaker 1:
[32:32] You have too much vitamin C?

Speaker 2:
[32:34] Vitamin C excess?

Speaker 1:
[32:36] We're all looking at you, Max.

Speaker 4:
[32:37] Sure.

Speaker 1:
[32:37] Yeah. Okay. Yeah, scurvy was a good as well. Pay me no mind.

Speaker 3:
[32:41] Last question.

Speaker 1:
[32:42] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[32:43] Was the cutlass an Alton Brown multi-tool?

Speaker 4:
[32:46] And was it a cutlass supreme?

Speaker 3:
[32:48] But like a multi-purpose tool?

Speaker 1:
[32:49] Which means it comes with olives.

Speaker 3:
[32:51] Yeah. No, but really, could you, because you would use your cutlass for the obvious pirating reasons, but it's also a very sharp, good knife potentially.

Speaker 1:
[33:02] Yeah, like cutting rope and rigging and so on.

Speaker 3:
[33:04] Maybe, or let's say you catch a bunch of fish. Maybe there's some big old fish. I got a cutlass.

Speaker 1:
[33:10] Of course.

Speaker 3:
[33:11] I'm just wondering.

Speaker 1:
[33:12] Yeah, no, that's a great question.

Speaker 2:
[33:14] Also, it's just referred to as vitamin C overdose. Oh, okay. You can't digest the excess amount of sodium.

Speaker 4:
[33:19] It's water soluble, so it's not exactly toxic, but it could lead to, I believe, some digestion issues.

Speaker 2:
[33:26] Floating, diarrhea, the normal allotment.

Speaker 4:
[33:29] Max, what the facts?

Speaker 3:
[33:51] I just noticed Noel's hat, and it is fantastic in this environment.

Speaker 2:
[33:56] Oh, thank you.

Speaker 3:
[33:56] And it's got lots of flowers on it. It says something about Marcus.

Speaker 4:
[34:00] It's Marcus, the restaurant we went to last night. Actually, Brandy, Ben's a significant other, suggested that I get this hat. Didn't even notice they were selling them. Doubled back, bought the hat, gotten many compliments on it since.

Speaker 3:
[34:10] Almost as cool as Ben's ATL hat that I'm staring at right now.

Speaker 4:
[34:15] Ben is representing ATL and the UPS.

Speaker 2:
[34:17] And Matt, I wanna comment your beautiful hat, which is not a hat, it's just your luscious locks.

Speaker 4:
[34:22] And those sweet, sweet, white, milky thighs.

Speaker 2:
[34:24] I'm trying to farm for a compliment myself.

Speaker 1:
[34:26] Max, I love your shirt.

Speaker 2:
[34:28] Thank you.

Speaker 1:
[34:29] Why don't you describe your shirt?

Speaker 2:
[34:30] It is a white cat and a tarot card, saying the white cat tarot card.

Speaker 1:
[34:33] There it is.

Speaker 4:
[34:34] Can I just double down on Matt's pale, white, milky thighs, though?

Speaker 3:
[34:37] Oh, really, really? Oh, we're going there.

Speaker 4:
[34:40] We've been there, it's the second time around.

Speaker 2:
[34:42] Back to the grotto, we shall go.

Speaker 1:
[34:45] Yes, back to the grotto. So, this is weird because it's piracy much more recent than we think about, only think about pirates, right? And we know that this lady was definitely a consummate pirate because she was switching sides, whatever. She was joining different forces. It was whatever worked for her, but also she became too valuable to these different rival factions for anyone to just straight up kill her because they were thinking, well, what if we can turn her? Because we know this lady's a turnstile.

Speaker 3:
[35:16] I see what you mean. That would be the most dangerous person. And I do wonder why nobody decided, hey, we have to take this person out because there is a potential that even if we think she's working with us, she's not.

Speaker 1:
[35:28] Yeah. And plus the fact that she's becoming a national figure, even if controversial, everybody was recognizing Rosie the Riveter during the wartime in the US. People are recognizing her and she's become a heroic figure in Chinese history. Often mis-portrayed, mis-remembered. You'll see all these legends about her. They're like similar to George Washington legends about how good she is at firearms. They called her Two Guns is what it translates to because she was known for, at least according to the propaganda and survivors tales, she was known for jumping into ships or into fights with two guns and just pop, popping off like Frank Reynolds. Well, it's weird to me that he usually just has one gun. Anyway, then she started blasting.

Speaker 2:
[36:19] But then, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[36:20] And so we know that-

Speaker 2:
[36:22] You're welcome, Matt.

Speaker 3:
[36:22] Just pop it off. I just can see him. Sorry.

Speaker 2:
[36:25] I love it.

Speaker 3:
[36:25] I love Danny DeVito so much.

Speaker 1:
[36:27] Shout out to everybody who restarted the rum ham joke. I posted a picture of us visiting flamingos.

Speaker 4:
[36:34] Steamed hams?

Speaker 1:
[36:35] Rum hams.

Speaker 4:
[36:35] Oh, my mistake.

Speaker 1:
[36:36] Rum hams.

Speaker 4:
[36:37] Always rum ham. Is that always sunny?

Speaker 1:
[36:39] Yes.

Speaker 4:
[36:39] Got it.

Speaker 3:
[36:40] You posted a picture of us here?

Speaker 1:
[36:42] Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I'm just- Okay.

Speaker 3:
[36:45] I need to- Sorry?

Speaker 1:
[36:46] Oh, my girlfriend made me do it.

Speaker 2:
[36:48] You asked my permission beforehand.

Speaker 4:
[36:51] I was not consulted.

Speaker 3:
[36:52] I was not consulted.

Speaker 2:
[36:52] I told him, I'm welcome to do it, but he cannot tag my Instagram because no one's allowed to have my Instagram.

Speaker 3:
[36:57] Oh.

Speaker 1:
[36:57] It's just for tattoos, right?

Speaker 2:
[36:59] Just for tattoos.

Speaker 1:
[36:59] A mystery is afoot. And so we know that people have still gone back to see Madame Two Guns over and over to embellish her story, to try to figure out what the truth of it is. We know there are, there's plenty of documentation of her violence and fighting Japanese forces, but we still don't know exactly how she pulled all of this off because they were, they had military training and her guys were just, you know, criminals.

Speaker 3:
[37:27] Weird.

Speaker 1:
[37:27] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[37:28] And then it couldn't be a School of the Americas situation. That's on the other side of the world.

Speaker 1:
[37:33] I know, man. There's so much more to get to about that character. But I think one of the most important parts of this year is that she literally became multiple things across her life that were in direct opposition to one another. And then she became, I don't know if we should call her a national hero, but I don't know, you know, America has its own problems with its national heroes. She ultimately does turn down the offer from the CIA because they do go after her hard. And then...

Speaker 3:
[38:06] But it wouldn't have, hold on. Even if she accepted the offer from the CIA, she would have officially turned down the offer from the CIA.

Speaker 1:
[38:15] Ding, ding, ding. Well done, Matt. And she, after she turned down that offer, she started to shift away from piracy or what they were calling military or maritime operations. And she becomes more active in the socialist government. She was going to, she did get in trouble a couple of times because she kept trying to get Colonel Kurtz about stuff and planning her own unsanctioned operations. You know, you just get a taste for it.

Speaker 3:
[38:45] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[38:47] So maybe the CIA got her.

Speaker 3:
[38:48] I feel like they got her, dude. If she started embedding herself more into the government, getting more involved in the socialist government, and then she's really paranoid about stuff all of a sudden, come on.

Speaker 1:
[39:00] And then she also started acting later in life.

Speaker 2:
[39:04] Definitely CIA now.

Speaker 1:
[39:06] For the stage films?

Speaker 2:
[39:07] Yeah. CIA, all the way.

Speaker 1:
[39:09] And in Taiwan, she ultimately dies on May 4th, 1982.

Speaker 3:
[39:17] Wow.

Speaker 1:
[39:18] So piracy is much closer than it looks in the rear view mirror. And when she dies, the legend waxes and wanes, but she's still remembered as a legendary pirate leader. And depending on how the geopolitical winds blow in that part of the world, they still bring her out as a propaganda tool every now and then.

Speaker 4:
[39:41] Just trot her on out, huh?

Speaker 1:
[39:42] Yeah. This is one of those times. She's at it for another moment.

Speaker 3:
[39:45] Do we know if she has a family, a legacy and that kind of thing that continues on? I would be interested in.

Speaker 1:
[39:51] Yeah. They have surviving descendants. Her grandson is a guy named Xie Wik, like John Wik.

Speaker 3:
[40:01] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[40:02] He went to a ceremony in Shanghai as recently in 2014.

Speaker 3:
[40:08] Wow.

Speaker 1:
[40:08] The anniversary of the Nanjing Massacre. The history repeats, man, still so baffling. We hope it's interesting to all our fellow ridiculous historians to learn that despite the rampant misogyny of a lot of piracy, the world's best pirate was a woman, and some of the world's most recent pirates probably worked for the CIA.

Speaker 4:
[40:30] Wow.

Speaker 3:
[40:32] I'm not going to look at the ocean the same after we leave this incredible studio.

Speaker 1:
[40:36] Man, we are in, seriously, we're not blowing rainbows, folks. This is a great spot. This is a very nice studio.

Speaker 4:
[40:42] Very cool.

Speaker 2:
[40:43] Our lovely Flamingo guides walked by just a minute ago. I thought we were waving them in and we were like, come on, the podcast. Yes, we all hung out with Flamingos. And they smell very nice. I did not think that was a thing I was going to find out.

Speaker 1:
[40:54] I did.

Speaker 4:
[40:54] It was part of the tour, the smelling.

Speaker 3:
[40:56] Let's clarify, though. There is a smell to Flamingo enclosures if you've been to a zoo.

Speaker 1:
[41:02] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[41:02] It is not the Flamingo that you are smelling with that smell. When you go up to a Flamingo, as we did, and you smell their feathers, they smell incredible.

Speaker 1:
[41:13] Fresh and clean. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[41:14] Very fresh, very clean.

Speaker 1:
[41:16] And we can't thank you enough for tuning in, folks. We can't thank the good people at Baha Mar enough for having us, but we'll try. Thank you so much, Baha Mar. Hey.

Speaker 3:
[41:26] Seriously.

Speaker 1:
[41:27] Nice one.

Speaker 2:
[41:27] Thank you.

Speaker 1:
[41:28] Nice.

Speaker 3:
[41:28] Seriously.

Speaker 1:
[41:29] Cheers, mate.

Speaker 2:
[41:30] Thank you.

Speaker 3:
[41:31] Can I just say one thing I love about this place, and I haven't been to many resorts of this size and just how opulent and incredibly... There's just so much cool stuff here. What they do with water here on this resort is awesome. We receive these metal bottles that I'm looking around at people walking around us, and everybody seems to have them. Instead of giving everybody bottled water in places or having that for sale in a bunch of places, you just go and you refill your metal water bottle.

Speaker 2:
[42:04] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[42:05] Like such a great idea.

Speaker 1:
[42:06] Yeah. The water features also, and the water is amazing. There's fire on the water.

Speaker 2:
[42:12] And also the grotto.

Speaker 1:
[42:13] And also the grotto. We've got so much more to get to, folks. We are going to have more pirate stories in the future. We're going to farm them out because I think 2026 is going to be a pirate phase for us.

Speaker 2:
[42:25] We are, matey.

Speaker 1:
[42:26] Yeah, we are, matey. Thank you so much to our super producer, Mr. Max Williams. Thanks to Alex Williams, who composed this bangin track. And thanks very much to our returning guest, Mr. Matt Frederick. Matt, you gotta come back on the show.

Speaker 2:
[42:41] Arrrr!

Speaker 4:
[42:43] I thank you as well, Matt.

Speaker 1:
[42:45] I'll pay you in the boots.

Speaker 2:
[42:45] I thank you as well, you know. Kind of.

Speaker 1:
[42:49] And who else do we need to thank?

Speaker 4:
[42:50] If you don't come back, I'll hit you with me cutlass.

Speaker 2:
[42:53] No!

Speaker 4:
[42:54] Slice, slice, slice. Oh gosh, who else? Chris Frasiotis, Neves Jeffcoats, Here in Spirit, Jonathan Strickland, The Quizster, AJ, Bahamas, Jacobs?

Speaker 1:
[43:03] Why isn't he here?

Speaker 4:
[43:04] Yeah, the puzzler.

Speaker 1:
[43:05] He might be here.

Speaker 4:
[43:06] He might be here. In a hammock.

Speaker 1:
[43:08] Big thanks to Dr. Rachel Big Spinach Lance, the rude dudes at Ridiculous Crime. If you dig us, you will love them. And no, thanks to you.

Speaker 4:
[43:16] Hey, thanks to you as well, buddy. We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, visit the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.