transcript

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Speaker 1:
[00:56] Good morning.

Speaker 3:
[00:57] It's the start of another workday for the Dateline team.

Speaker 4:
[01:00] Let's jump in.

Speaker 3:
[01:01] Our producers are catching up on breaking crime news.

Speaker 1:
[01:04] And this happens things this summer, right?

Speaker 5:
[01:06] He wasn't able to talk about any of his time in jail or what the police asked him.

Speaker 6:
[01:11] There's a lot of suspicion around the girlfriend.

Speaker 3:
[01:15] Welcome to Dateline True Crime Weekly. I'm Andrea Canning. It's April 23rd, and here's what's on our docket. In Los Angeles, David, the TikTok star who rose to fame with his song, Romantic Homicide, is charged with first-degree murder.

Speaker 7:
[01:30] He's wearing a black hoodie. He's behind the glass partition. He's not showing a lot of emotion.

Speaker 3:
[01:35] In Dateline Roundup, actor Alec Baldwin is heading back to court in connection to the deadly shooting on the set of his movie Rust a few years ago. And the Utah mom on trial for masterminding the murder of her son-in-law takes the witness hand.

Speaker 8:
[01:49] I took Katie's face in my hand and I said, Kevin shot man.

Speaker 3:
[01:54] Plus it's sexual assault awareness month. We'll be talking to Donna Palomba, a survivor who has transformed her own traumatic experience into advocacy and support for others.

Speaker 9:
[02:05] These crimes are difficult to talk about, but in order to prevent them, we have to be able to.

Speaker 3:
[02:11] But before all that, we're heading to Henderson County, North Carolina, where we are learning more about the investigation into a woman accused of poisoning her own children at their Thanksgiving dinner. Thanksgiving is usually a time for friends and family to gather, express gratitude and share a meal. But according to prosecutors, last November, 53-year-old Gudrun Casper-Leinenkugel served up something diabolical to her guests, wine laced with poison. Gudrun's 32-year-old daughter, Leela, died the next day. The boyfriend of her other daughter became violently ill and was hospitalized. He survived. Eight weeks later, Gudrun was charged with murder and attempted murder. But that wasn't all, because prosecutors say this isn't the first time she has fatally poisoned someone. Investigators have remained tight-lipped about the case, but Dateline producers Carole Gabel and Haley Barber recently obtained newly unsealed search warrants, which provide a first look at what led up to Gudrun's arrest. They are here now to get us up to speed on this complicated case and tell us what they've learned. Hey, Haley and Carole, thank you for joining us.

Speaker 10:
[03:22] Hey. Hey. And we're glad you're on this story with us, because it sure has a lot of twists and turns.

Speaker 3:
[03:28] Oh, my goodness. So many twists and turns. It's incredible. So let's talk about these search warrants. Early on in their investigation, detectives went to court and applied for the warrants so they could get access to various medical and cell phone records. In order for the judge to sign off, they had to submit a summary of their case, and that's what you got your hands on, Haley and Carol. You've taken a peek and we are learning a lot more.

Speaker 11:
[03:53] Yeah, that's right, Andrea. This is really the first time we're piecing this together from the perspective of the investigators and the prosecutors.

Speaker 3:
[04:00] We're going to get into more details of those cases. But first, can you give us a little more background on Gudrun?

Speaker 10:
[04:05] She was actually born Linda Casper, and she grew up in this tiny town in Wisconsin, but later changed her name to Gudrun Casper-Leinenkugel. It's sort of a nod to her personal affinity for German culture. Eventually, a romantic relationship took her to North Carolina in the Asheville area, specifically Hendersonville. She opened a restaurant, the Patton Public House, inspired by public houses in Germany. Sort of comfort food, walls covered with beer taps.

Speaker 11:
[04:40] The other thing that we know, Andrea, is that we believe Gudrun had four children, or has now three children, because 32-year-old Leela Livis obviously is the victim in this case and has passed away. Then Maya is another older daughter, and she is 28 years old from what we understand, and there are two little kids, and we don't know much about them.

Speaker 3:
[05:01] Take us to this Thanksgiving dinner in 2025.

Speaker 10:
[05:05] Well, we know that there are six adults there. Basically, Gudrun's two older daughters, Leela and Maya, Maya's boyfriend, Richard, and then also another man named Jeff, and then another man named Landon, was also at this dinner.

Speaker 11:
[05:25] According to these search warrants, everything seemed fine at this dinner at first. Gudrun's daughters, as well as Richard, went home around midnight. Maya says that Richard started feeling really ill. He has flu-like symptoms. By 8 a.m., she is dialing 911 and saying, he's got to get to the hospital. That morning, Gudrun calls Leela, her daughter, to check in on her, and she's not able to reach her. So she reaches out to the Jackson County Sheriff's Office and requests a welfare check. She also hops in the car and goes to check on Leela. When she arrives at the scene, Leela is dead inside the residence.

Speaker 3:
[06:01] So did Gudrun say why she reached out to Leela? Was this in response to Richard getting sick? Do we know?

Speaker 11:
[06:10] Yeah, that's a good question, and the timeline is not super clear to us on all of that yet.

Speaker 3:
[06:15] Haley, according to these search warrants you obtained, Gudrun tells investigators responding to Leela's death that she thinks Leela might have fallen ill from wine Gudrun served at the dinner. It's so interesting that before anyone even knows what killed Leela, Gudrun was bringing up the wine, and then when talking with a doctor treating Richard at the hospital, she adds a new detail.

Speaker 11:
[06:38] That's right. After she leaves Leela's residence, she goes to the hospital from what we understand. She brings up this wine again, and she adds in that the wine was stored in an industrial closet where chemicals were possibly kept, including things like rat poison, cyanide that they used in their barn. According to this doctor, Gudrun said, the kids play back their quote and may have got to it, unquote.

Speaker 3:
[07:03] So is she trying to say that the younger children might have contaminated the wine?

Speaker 11:
[07:09] Yeah, it's unclear what theory she's offering here. But Gudrun also tells the doctor that this bottle was already open when she presented it at the party.

Speaker 3:
[07:18] Gudrun said she served Leela and Richard the wine and also her other daughter, Maya. So why did Maya not get sick if the wine was contaminated?

Speaker 10:
[07:28] Well, a fly apparently gets in her glass and it's, you know, she realizes this and spits a little bit out and that she also reported that the wine tasted off. So she didn't have as much as the other two. And also, it's interesting, Gudrun did not have any of the wine because she's allergic to grapes. So she had a blackberry wine beverage.

Speaker 3:
[07:58] So law enforcement definitely zeroed in on the wine. Are they able to test the wine?

Speaker 11:
[08:04] Landon brings that bottle to investigators and they do conduct testing. Investigators learned that Richard had five times a lethal dose of cyanide in his system. One of the detectives talks to the medical examiner who does a toxicology test on Leela. And they report that Leela's blood sample pointed her to the chemical acetonitrile, which basically Andrea converts to cyanide in the body over a period of hours.

Speaker 3:
[08:35] Did Gudrun have any of this chemical in her home or did she have any use for it?

Speaker 11:
[08:40] Yes. So during a police interview, Gudrun actually admits apparently that she did have some of these chemicals in her home, that she had bought this acetonitrile.

Speaker 3:
[08:50] According to prosecutors, Gudrun took that chemical and intentionally spiked the wine before serving it to her Thanksgiving guests. Have they offered up any alleged motive? I mean, a mother poisoning her own daughter, that is just something we at Dateline really almost never hear.

Speaker 11:
[09:07] Yeah, that's right, Andrea. Not only that, but from everyone we've spoken to, Gudrun had a very close relationship with her daughters, especially Leela.

Speaker 3:
[09:17] We should say Gudrun has entered a not-guilty plea to all the charges against her. But there is a big twist in all of this. This is not the only murder that Gudrun has been charged with, Carol.

Speaker 10:
[09:29] No, it's not. Investigators learned that there was a man named Michael Schmidt. Gudrun had reported him dead back in 2007, and she is now charged with his death.

Speaker 3:
[09:45] Yeah, she apparently lived inside the house, and he lived in a camper on the property.

Speaker 11:
[09:50] That's right. We believe he was actually the owner of the property at this time, and according to investigators in these new documents, they say that Gudrun was actually the last person who saw Michael alive. But the real twist here is apparently this same chemical, acetonitrile, was found in his system as well.

Speaker 3:
[10:12] The plot thickens when you hear the same chemical.

Speaker 11:
[10:15] And there's still a lot of, I would say, mysteries surrounding his death. At first, Michael's death was rolled accidental. There is a report that this acetonitrile was found in his system, but the cause was maybe accidentally huffing this substance, acetonitrile.

Speaker 10:
[10:33] And we are so early days, we really don't know hardly anything about the defense, except we know that many of her family members are still very supportive of her.

Speaker 3:
[10:46] I think it's very important to say that Maya, as of the last time that we saw her, was supporting her mother in all of this.

Speaker 10:
[10:54] Well, she is, and so is the boyfriend who had to be hospitalized. So I think that's a significant factor to keep in mind at this stage of the case.

Speaker 3:
[11:05] Gudrun remains behind bars without bond. Do we know when she is due back in court, Haley?

Speaker 11:
[11:10] Yeah, next week, actually. So April 30th, there's another hearing. So be interested to see what happens next.

Speaker 3:
[11:17] Yeah, just tons of questions. Thank you, Haley and Carol, so much for bringing us this update.

Speaker 11:
[11:21] Thanks for having us, Andrea.

Speaker 10:
[11:22] Thanks, Andrea.

Speaker 3:
[11:25] Coming up, seven months after the body of a teenager was found in the trunk of a Tesla registered to the singer David, he's arrested in the Hollywood Hills.

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Speaker 13:
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Speaker 14:
[12:45] Hey there, everybody. It's Yasmine Vesugian, host of Here's the Scoop, the daily news podcast from NBC News. So the Iran conflict has been a major focus of our coverage, even before the war began. Week after week, I've spoken with our team of correspondents and we've heard voices from the region, including from inside Iran. But I want to take the reporting a step further. This week on Here's the Scoop, I am on the ground in Lebanon and Qatar, reporting from the war zone firsthand to understand how the bombings, the battle over the Strait of Hormuz and the uncertainty around what comes next are impacting life in the Middle East. I'll be getting a deeper look inside the region and the people that are caught in the middle. Join us for our special reporting from the Middle East on Here's the Scoop on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. I'll see you soon.

Speaker 3:
[13:36] Late last week, news broke of an arrest in the Hollywood Hills. Video showed armed police officers in tactical gear walking a man by the name of David Anthony Burke to a squad car. But you might know him by another name, David, but spelled D4vd, a singer with a multi-million dollar recording contract. He went viral on TikTok a few years ago with his song, Romantic Homicide. Seven months ago, he was on a world tour to promote his new album when police made a frightening discovery in the trunk of his Tesla.

Speaker 15:
[14:18] After investigators made entry to the car, they found what appears to be the remains of a human being.

Speaker 3:
[14:23] The remains belong to a 14-year-old girl named Celeste Rivas. On Monday, Burke was charged with Celeste's murder. He is pleaded not guilty. Here to tell us more about the investigation, other charges Burke is facing, and what comes next, is NBC News investigative reporter Andrew Blankstein. Andrew, thanks for being here.

Speaker 7:
[14:43] Thanks for having me, Andrea.

Speaker 3:
[14:44] So, Andrew, tell us a little more about David Anthony Burke for people who don't know him. He's a new kind of artist who broke out on social media. Very successful, right?

Speaker 7:
[14:54] So, for a lot of younger people, David is a really big deal. He has a very big following and David's born in New York, raised in Houston, raised in a Christian family, grew up listening to gospel. In 2021, he starts making background music for Tik Toks. And like you said, it goes viral with this hit, Romantic Commicide. He opened for artist SZA. He releases his debut album, Withered, in 2025. And he played at well-known music festivals like Lollapalooza and Coachella.

Speaker 3:
[15:26] So Andrew, his career was definitely on the rise. How does Celeste Rivas fit into the picture here?

Speaker 7:
[15:32] She was from like Elsinore, this quiet town in Riverside County. We don't know how they met. He's 21 years old now. According to the prosecution, he was 18 years old. Celeste Rivas was 13 years old. Her family knew she was friends with him. Celeste's family reported her missing in April of 2024. They said she left to go see a movie with David and never came back. A runaway situation. Then according to prosecution's timeline, she's alive until April 2025, when she's last seen by others. Then her body was found in September of 2025, months later.

Speaker 3:
[16:09] How was the body even discovered in the first place in David's Tesla?

Speaker 7:
[16:14] The Tesla has been parked in the Hollywood Hills, just above Sunset Boulevard for a number of weeks. Neighbors call and eventually the car is towed to a tow yard in mid-city Los Angeles. There's an overpowering smell. Police are called to the tow yard and in the trunk, they discover Celeste's body, but they don't know it's her at that point. There's a coroner's investigation and eventually she's identified.

Speaker 3:
[16:41] We mentioned that David was on tour when this discovery was made. How does he react to this? Because he's not immediately arrested, but it is his car, so that doesn't look great. What does he do?

Speaker 7:
[16:55] Well, the tour continues for a little bit of time right after the discovery of the body, but as the tension to this case grows, so does the pressure to not continue that tour. So at that point, David's team said he was cooperating with the investigation, but an LAPD source told NBC 4 in November that that wasn't the case. During this period, investigators are canvassing for video. There's a grand jury that's convened where there's testimony taken from people in David's orbit. Obviously, grand juries proceeding is secret, so we don't know the full extent of it. But they're doing things trying to figure out how she died and whether it was a criminal act.

Speaker 3:
[17:42] David was arrested, as we said, last week. This is about one year after Celeste was last seen. On Monday, District Attorney Nathan Hockman announced the formal charges against him at a press conference.

Speaker 16:
[17:54] These charges include the most serious charges that a DA's office can bring. That is first-degree murder with special circumstances.

Speaker 3:
[18:03] Break those charges down for us, Andrew.

Speaker 7:
[18:05] Well, the first one, obviously, first-degree murder is an intentional murder, premeditated act. The other counts, in addition to first-degree murder, were continuous sexual abuse of a minor and also mutilation of a body in terms of the disposal of that body.

Speaker 3:
[18:22] Andrew, what is the defense saying about these allegations?

Speaker 7:
[18:25] At the time of David's arrest, and this was reiterated during the arraignment and plea, David Burke's attorneys issued a statement that said that when it came to their client, quote, the actual evidence in this case will show that David Burke did not murder Celeste Rivas Hernandez and that he was not the cause of her death. We will vigorously defend David's innocence.

Speaker 3:
[18:47] David appeared in court Monday. He entered that not guilty plea. What was his demeanor like?

Speaker 7:
[18:53] So David appeared in Division 30 of the Criminal Court's building in downtown Los Angeles. He's wearing a black hoodie. He's behind the glass partition. He's not showing a lot of emotion. It's kind of a fairly quick hearing. But one of the things that comes out of it is his criminal defense attorneys go and say, we want a preliminary hearing where the prosecution has to put its evidence before a judge to see if they will go forward with the trial.

Speaker 3:
[19:23] Members of Celeste's family attended David's arraignment, but didn't speak to the media. On Tuesday afternoon, they released a statement thanking the LAPD for their hard work. They said Celeste was a beautiful, strong girl who loved to sing and dance. We love her very much. We miss her deeply. All we want is justice for Celeste. Andrew, we will continue to follow this case. Thank you so much for bringing us what you know so far.

Speaker 7:
[19:47] Thanks so much, Andrea.

Speaker 3:
[19:48] Up next, it's time for Dateline Roundup. We've got an update on Alec Baldwin's latest legal troubles, and the Utah mom accused of murdering her son-in-law testifies in her own defense. Plus, it's Sexual Assault Awareness Month. I'm catching up with a familiar face from one of my Dateline episodes, a survivor who's turned her own horrific experience into advocacy and is sharing what she believes needs to change.

Speaker 13:
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Speaker 17:
[20:33] Get the best of NBC News with a subscription. Fewer ads, deeper access and exclusive content. And now during the Xfinity member celebration, members can get an exclusive 50 percent off an annual subscription. Head to xfinity.com/membership to learn more. Xfinity, imagine that. Subscription automatically renews each year at 65.99 plus taxes and fees until canceled. Offer ends May 20th, 2026. Price is subject to change. Visit nbcnews.com/xfinity for full offer terms and details.

Speaker 4:
[21:03] Picture yourself alone in the middle of nowhere and there's somebody following you.

Speaker 11:
[21:08] He went on his way, we so thought, and then we went on ours. But in reality, he really followed us up there.

Speaker 4:
[21:15] On Deadly Nightmares, the true crime podcast from ID, listen to real stories of ordinary people stalked by serial killers and attackers.

Speaker 1:
[21:23] Please, tell me we're not going to die.

Speaker 4:
[21:26] Listen to Deadly Nightmares on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 3:
[21:39] Welcome back, joining me for this week's Roundup is Dateline producer Sue Simpson. Thanks for being here, Sue.

Speaker 18:
[21:45] Thanks for having me.

Speaker 3:
[21:46] First, we're heading to Los Angeles where there has been a big development in one of the very first cases we covered here on the podcast, the fatal shooting of cinematographer Helena Hutchins on the set of the movie Rust by actor and producer Alec Baldwin. Before we get to what's new, Sue, just remind us of this big story.

Speaker 18:
[22:04] Such a big story. Back in 2021, Alec Baldwin was rehearsing a scene for Rust. That's a Western he was producing and starring in. He was pointing a prop gun at the cinematographer Helena Hutchins when it went off, killing her and injuring director Joel Sousa. Baldwin claimed that it was an accident and he said he was following instructions when he pointed the gun at Hutchins and that he wasn't aware that the gun had a live round in it.

Speaker 3:
[22:31] Let's take a listen, Sue. Alec Baldwin talked to NBC News in the weeks after the incident.

Speaker 19:
[22:37] There are incidental accidents on film sets from time to time, but nothing like this. We were a very, very well-oiled crew shooting a film together and then this horrible event happened.

Speaker 3:
[22:50] So Baldwin and the movie's armorer were initially criminally charged in connection to the shooting. What happened with those charges?

Speaker 18:
[22:57] Yes, that's right. The armorer, Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, was convicted at trial of involuntary manslaughter and sentenced to 18 months in prison for her role in the shooting. Baldwin was also charged with involuntary manslaughter, but the case against him was thrown out in a very dramatic way on the third day of the trial after the judge determined that the prosecution hid evidence from the defense.

Speaker 3:
[23:22] So that was nearly two years ago, if you can believe it, but now because of a new ruling last week, Baldwin may have to defend himself at trial after all, but this time, Sue, we're talking about civil court.

Speaker 18:
[23:34] That's right, Andrea. So a gaffer on the set, Serge Svetnoy, filed a civil lawsuit against Alec Baldwin back in 2021, alleging that the bullet narrowly missed him and that he suffered emotional distress because of that. In his lawsuit, he blamed the shooting on the negligence of the armorer and producers, and that of course includes Alec Baldwin.

Speaker 3:
[23:56] How has Alec Baldwin's defense team responded to these claims? It seems Alec just can't shake what happened.

Speaker 18:
[24:03] So true. The defense team tried to get the lawsuit thrown out, saying among other things that there is no evidence that Baldwin had a duty in his capacity as a producer to ensure everyone's safety on the set.

Speaker 3:
[24:14] All right. So bad news for Alec Baldwin. The judge ruled against him and says that the lawsuit can go to trial. Do we know when that will be?

Speaker 18:
[24:22] Well, unless a settlement is reached, Andrea, the case is going to go to trial on October 12th.

Speaker 3:
[24:27] Okay. We'll keep an eye on that. Next, we are heading to a Utah courtroom for the latest on a case we told you about last week. This is the trial of Tracey Grist, who prosecutors say masterminded a plot to kill her son-in-law, Matt Ristelli. It is week two of the trial, and Tracey took the stand on Monday. Before we get to her testimony, Sue, just remind everybody about the basics of this one.

Speaker 18:
[24:49] So the victim was 42-year-old Matt Ristelli. He was married to Tracey's daughter, Kate. Matt and Kate lived in California. Tracey lived in Utah. In July, 2024, Kate and Matt's marriage was in trouble, and Kate took her kids, and she went to stay with her mom. Prosecutors say that's when Tracey, the mom, came up with a plan to murder Matt. They say she got Kate to lure Matt to her home in Utah, and when Matt walked through the front door, Tracey's son, Kevin, shot him. And then they placed a knife in his hand to make it look like the shooting was in self-defense. The investigators did not buy that story, and they arrested all three of them, Tracey, Kevin and Kate. Kate pleaded guilty, and she agreed to testify against her mom.

Speaker 3:
[25:35] The prosecution, Sue, wrapped Monday, and then it was the defense's turn to put on its case. Tracey herself took the stand, and she's really the star witness in this.

Speaker 18:
[25:45] Absolutely, Andrea. You know what a big deal it is for the defendant to take the stand. So Tracey denied plotting the killing, or even being in the room when Matt was shot. Tracey says her son-in-law came barging into the house uninvited.

Speaker 8:
[25:59] I didn't hear the doorbell. I didn't hear a knock, and I didn't expect him to walk into the house. Within a few short period of a few moments, I heard gunfire.

Speaker 18:
[26:13] And then what happened?

Speaker 8:
[26:14] I went to the foot of the stairs, and that's where I saw Matt laying down, where he had fallen down. And I saw Kevin, and I said, Kevin, what happened? What happened?

Speaker 18:
[26:27] What did Kevin say?

Speaker 8:
[26:29] He said he had a knife.

Speaker 12:
[26:31] So when you went upstairs, what did you do?

Speaker 8:
[26:35] I said I took Katie's face in my hand, and I said Kevin shot Matt.

Speaker 18:
[26:43] The defense attorney also asked Tracey why she thinks her daughter Kate decided to testify against her. Tracey accused the prosecutors of intimidating her daughter.

Speaker 8:
[26:53] I suspect she was intimidated by the government and by the evidence, which I don't blame her for being intimidated, because it sounds like there was a lot. But I believe that she was making a deal, saying what she needed to have the least amount of time in jail as possible or prison as possible.

Speaker 3:
[27:21] So the defense also pushed back on something that stood out to us here at Dateline. Internet searches that Tracey allegedly made about Dateline's coverage of the Donna Adelson case. Our listeners probably remember she's the Florida grandmother convicted of masterminding a plot to murder her former son-in-law, FSU law professor Dan Markell. Now in court at Tracey's trial, the prosecution implied that she might have been inspired by Donna Adelson.

Speaker 18:
[27:49] Yeah, it's wild. The defense addressed this with Tracey on the stand, saying that she was an avid true crime fan, and so was her other daughter, Tara Lynn. And so it was normal for her to read about high-profile stories like the Adelson's.

Speaker 8:
[28:02] It was a popular true crime story, and there was no movies out.

Speaker 16:
[28:08] Okay. And you listened to a podcast about it?

Speaker 8:
[28:11] Yeah, I listened to the podcast, and then I would go down a rabbit hole and look at things, look at a picture of a person that's being talked about.

Speaker 19:
[28:19] So is this a hobby of yours?

Speaker 8:
[28:21] Yeah.

Speaker 18:
[28:22] True crime?

Speaker 8:
[28:23] Yes.

Speaker 3:
[28:24] How did the prosecutor, Sue, handle Tracey on cross-examination?

Speaker 18:
[28:27] The prosecutor pressed Tracey on a few inconsistencies in her testimony, but she stuck to her version of the story.

Speaker 3:
[28:35] All right. Thank you for the update, Sue.

Speaker 18:
[28:36] Thanks, Andrea.

Speaker 3:
[28:38] After we taped this conversation Tuesday, the jury came back with a verdict. Tracey Grist was found guilty on all charges.

Speaker 6:
[28:46] We, the jury, empaneled in the about entitled cause, find a defendant asked to count one murder, as charged in the information, guilty. Jury for a person.

Speaker 3:
[28:57] She faces up to life in prison. In September 1993, Donna Palomba was sexually assaulted by a masked intruder inside her home while her husband was out of town and her young children slept just rooms away.

Speaker 9:
[29:17] He flipped me onto my stomach and put the gun in my back. And he said, if you call the pigs, I'm gonna come back and kill you.

Speaker 3:
[29:26] The intruder fled and Donna ran to a neighbor's house for help, the beginning of a long, difficult path toward justice. I covered Donna's story for the Dateline episode, Evil Paid a Visit. She told me how she was questioned and doubted by investigators in the aftermath of that assault, a second trauma that nearly derailed the case, and how years later investigators identified her attacker as a family friend, someone she and her husband knew and trusted.

Speaker 9:
[29:55] It was unbelievable.

Speaker 3:
[29:57] Donna is one of millions of sexual assault survivors. According to the CDC, nearly half of women and more than one in six men experienced sexual violence in their lifetime. April is Sexual Assault Awareness Month, the time to support survivors and push for change. It is work Donna now does every day through her organization, Jane Doe No More, and she joins us now to talk about that work. Donna, it's so good to see you again.

Speaker 9:
[30:23] Great to see you, Andrea.

Speaker 3:
[30:25] Yeah. Thank you for being here. Donna, when you look back on everything that you have personally been through, how did those experiences shape the decision to eventually speak out and share your story publicly? Because I know in the beginning, you were anonymous. You didn't want to share your name.

Speaker 9:
[30:43] That's right. I was Jane Doe, and honestly, I thought I had done everything right the night of the crime. I went to the hospital. I had a sex crimes kit done. I was treated for injuries, told officers that were there, everything that I could possibly remember about the crime. And I was well on my way to healing, actually, trying to keep it all together for my family and young children. And I was re-victimized. I was threatened with arrest. And I was just...

Speaker 3:
[31:13] Unbelievable.

Speaker 9:
[31:14] Yeah. I was... The re-victimization, Andrea, is what really compelled me to do something.

Speaker 3:
[31:22] So, because of all those things that went wrong, you took that experience, the worst of your life, and you turned it into action with your foundation, Jane Doe No More. What was your vision for the organization and what kind of impact are you, you know, making today after all these years? Because this is... Jane Doe No More has been around for a while now.

Speaker 9:
[31:42] We will be 20 years old next year in 2027. So mind-blowing. But initially, we started out to improve the way society responds to victims, survivors of sexual crimes because of the way I was treated, because these crimes are so stigmatized and they expect a victim who's been traumatized to act a certain way, which is impossible to predict. And so, you know, we have grown from there. We now have programs. But it begins with education and awareness. And it's a challenge because these crimes are difficult to talk about. A lot of people don't want to even discuss them. But in order to prevent them, we have to be able to, in age-appropriate language, start very early on. And even in, you know, we have a program called Safety for Me for Boys and Girls, ages 5 to 11. I mean, it's sad to say, but the majority of our survivors on our Survivors Speak team are victims of child sexual abuse by someone they loved and trusted, which is just gut-wrenching. But it's a fact. You know, people think these types of crimes, it's a stranger in an alley or, you know, it involves physical force. And it's not true.

Speaker 3:
[32:55] So what should someone do if they are a victim and they're listening right now or they have a friend or a family member and they haven't reported anything yet?

Speaker 13:
[33:04] Where do they start?

Speaker 9:
[33:06] Well, it really is a personal choice. And we always want to put that forward because some people, some victims will choose not to report for whatever reason, but they can also find support in other ways. We actually have a closed Facebook group called JDNM, acronym for Jane Doe No More Survivors. It's grown to almost 600, I think, survivors now, men and women who just go there, there's no judgment. And if someone discloses to you, we just say to be there for them in that moment, to ask them what you can do for them and let them share what they want to share. And if they choose to report, to be there for them and to look into ways that you can continue to help them.

Speaker 3:
[33:51] And Donna, if this is happening in the moment, in the future to someone, and it's just happened, obviously calling the police is really important, but are there any tips or anything that people can be armed with now in case this happens later of things they should be doing or asking, getting?

Speaker 9:
[34:07] I think the first thing to do is get to a place of safety. And then I would strongly urge to call 911 and to go to the hospital to have evidence collected. Because even if you choose not to report and you are overwhelmed in that moment, you do not have to report that evening or that day. You can have the sex crimes kit done and it will stay and they have to hold it. Depends on which state you're in, they'll hold it. So that during that time period, you will be able to get to a point where you can make an educated decision. If you want to press charges, if you don't. There's a multitude of reasons why someone might not want to and that's okay too.

Speaker 3:
[34:46] And I've noticed a lot in these cases when they come forward later. It seems to be really important when victims say, I kept a diary, I wrote this in my diary or I told a friend or I told a family member. And then there's like that, it helps with corroboration that it's not just you saying, oh, this happened, but I didn't do anything.

Speaker 9:
[35:08] Absolutely. I remember doing just that. It is important to document if you can, anything that you can, because, you know, memories lapse and it's important.

Speaker 3:
[35:17] Donna, wow, thank you so much for these tips. You're such a inspiration to all kinds of people going through this. We appreciate it.

Speaker 9:
[35:26] Oh, we appreciate you. Thank you so much, Andrea.

Speaker 3:
[35:31] That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. To get ad-free listening for all our podcasts, subscribe to Dateline Premium. Coming up on Dateline this Friday, I've got a brand new episode, and it's a case we've talked about a lot here on Dateline True Crime Weekly. The story of Corey Richens, the Utah mom who wrote a book about grief, only to be charged with her husband's murder. I went to Utah and talked to the people at the center of the case, including Corey's brother who is speaking out publicly for the first time since the trial.

Speaker 15:
[36:02] My mother said, Corey did a good job that she just didn't break down there. I said, well, it's not a matter of breaking down.

Speaker 19:
[36:07] I said, it's just shock.

Speaker 3:
[36:09] Watch Book of Lies this Friday at 9, 8 Central on NBC, or you can stream it starting Saturday on Peacock. I hope you'll join us. Thanks for listening. Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Carson Cummins, Caroline Casey and Keani Reed. Our associate producers are Ellery Gladstone-Groth and Aria Young. Our senior producer is Liz Brown-Kurloff. Production and fact checking help by Audrey Abrahams. Veronica Mazaka is our digital producer. Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original music by Jesse McGinty. Paul Ryan is executive producer and Liz Kuhl is senior executive producer of Dateline. Bye everyone.

Speaker 13:
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