transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] Look at him, eating whatever he wants, never gaining a pound, while I'm stuck with the boring special and can't lose an ounce.

Speaker 2:
[00:06] How's your lunch, man?

Speaker 1:
[00:08] Amazing. Yours?

Speaker 3:
[00:09] So good.

Speaker 1:
[00:10] Oh, I'm so happy for you. Cool, buddy.

Speaker 2:
[00:14] Weight loss isn't fair, but Mochi Health is. The affordable GLP-1 source that can fix your frustration with food.

Speaker 3:
[00:20] So, same time next week?

Speaker 1:
[00:22] No! Definitely.

Speaker 2:
[00:23] And your friends. Learn more at joinmochi.com. Mochi members have access to licensed physicians and nutritionists. Results may vary.

Speaker 4:
[00:30] Wine and Crime contains graphic and explicit content which may not be suitable for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised.

Speaker 2:
[00:53] You are listening to Wine & Crime, the podcast where two friends chug wine.

Speaker 4:
[01:01] Keep it in.

Speaker 2:
[01:10] Chug wine. And at least there was a bit of so in accent, I'm Lucy, among other things.

Speaker 4:
[01:15] I'm Amanda, and I gave myself a coughing fit faking smoking a joint, so that's where I'm at.

Speaker 2:
[01:25] That's fine. You had plenty of practice.

Speaker 4:
[01:27] Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[01:29] Well, we're hot off the tail of a really long tech meeting.

Speaker 4:
[01:37] Very in depth, which I do appreciate.

Speaker 2:
[01:40] So yes, very much appreciate.

Speaker 4:
[01:42] My eyes are crossing.

Speaker 2:
[01:44] My eyes are crossing a little bit. We're going to change it up. We're going to have some fun, because today we have a very special fan pick.

Speaker 4:
[01:49] You're going to have some fun.

Speaker 2:
[01:51] Oh, did you have a fan pick, or did you just make a huge mistake?

Speaker 4:
[01:55] I made a huge mistake.

Speaker 2:
[01:56] Okay. Well, we have a fan pick from Madeline Capezza. Capezza. Y'all, I'm so hungry. Madeline has chosen the topic of Philadelphia Crimes.

Speaker 4:
[02:15] I love Philadelphia.

Speaker 2:
[02:16] They have a lot of Italians there. Madeline, I'm not making assumptions, but your last name suggests.

Speaker 4:
[02:22] It's possible.

Speaker 2:
[02:23] It's possible. Also, a lot of Italians, lots of Polish. God, we just came from the land of the Poles.

Speaker 4:
[02:32] We did.

Speaker 2:
[02:34] Anyway, Philadelphia, lots of immigrants, lots of firsts, and we're gonna get to most of them because there are too many to count.

Speaker 4:
[02:41] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[02:42] But first, Amanda, what's our wine crime or otherwise intoxicating pairing for Philadelphia Crimes?

Speaker 4:
[02:49] Oh my god, okay, I wanna preface this by saying I'm not drinking this shit. It's not happening.

Speaker 2:
[02:56] Okay.

Speaker 4:
[02:57] I literally wrote in my notes, Maddie, I absolutely will not be drinking either of these pairings, but I love how utterly unhinged they are. So I do encourage brave souls out there willing to try either of these options to do so and give me your feedback post haste LOL.

Speaker 2:
[03:12] Oh, no.

Speaker 4:
[03:13] Here's what Maddie recommended. Quote, you are so exactly spot on, Lucy. Oh, I heard you mutter buzzballs. Well, it's your lucky day, mama. I'll give two pairings. One, because I am studying for an exam, so why not pair it with a drink that I always drank when I was 18 to 20 and broke? And I don't know if the one indicates that that is for this first one. I don't know. Either of these are nuts.

Speaker 2:
[03:42] Okay.

Speaker 4:
[03:43] She recommends a gold has to be gold in parentheses, Four Loko. Oh no.

Speaker 2:
[03:52] The OG Four Locos? The OFs?

Speaker 4:
[03:54] Mixed, mixed with a single Country Time lemonade packet.

Speaker 2:
[04:08] It's so grainy.

Speaker 4:
[04:10] That's pairing number one. A gold Four Loko mixed with a Country Time lemonade packet. I 10 out of 10 would try it. 10 out of 10 will not be seeking out gold has to be gold Four Loko.

Speaker 2:
[04:23] Gold has to be gold.

Speaker 4:
[04:25] I actually do have Country Time lemonade mix in my house right now. So I have 50 percent of the ingredients, but I was not willing to cross the finish line. So as I'm reading this-

Speaker 2:
[04:34] It's not the load bearing 50 percent.

Speaker 4:
[04:37] No. So I'm reading this and I'm like, okay, well, I'm not going to do that. What's the second pairing? A tequila Rita Buzzball. That was my go-to for parties and little get-togethers in the dorm room.

Speaker 2:
[04:49] I was way kidding.

Speaker 4:
[04:51] So we did get some of the tequila Rita Buzzballs when we were in Palm Springs. We got a little variety.

Speaker 2:
[04:58] Were those the green ones?

Speaker 4:
[04:59] Yes, they are atrocious.

Speaker 2:
[05:00] I thought it was ecto-cooler flavored.

Speaker 4:
[05:04] No, they were margaritas. Honey. Okay. They were so gross. I can't. I really want to encourage you, Maddie, to just love yourself a little more.

Speaker 2:
[05:17] Then you did in college.

Speaker 4:
[05:19] Especially now as you're studying for exams, because you're not 18 to 20 anymore. We can love ourselves better now.

Speaker 2:
[05:27] You're 21 to 22.

Speaker 4:
[05:29] We can. Yes, you can. Si se puede.

Speaker 2:
[05:34] Hey, we all drank the most heinous shit.

Speaker 4:
[05:37] We did. UV blue.

Speaker 2:
[05:38] Oh yeah.

Speaker 4:
[05:40] We used to take shots of Everclear in my ex's apartment and chase them with pancakes. Oh, what?

Speaker 2:
[05:46] Mix or just a bite of pancake?

Speaker 4:
[05:48] No, just a bite of it. If we didn't have any mixers, he'd make pancakes. Y'all been there.

Speaker 2:
[05:59] Oh, man.

Speaker 4:
[06:00] Been there big time.

Speaker 2:
[06:02] But the early aughts were wild. They were something else.

Speaker 4:
[06:05] Yeah, we're not there anymore. So those are the pairings, hard pass. I'm going to stick with herbal remedies today and my trusty glass of water. And let's take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsor so Lucy can light her new candle.

Speaker 2:
[06:20] And here's my pairing, some Welch's fruit snacks.

Speaker 4:
[06:23] Oh my God.

Speaker 2:
[06:24] Sometimes having a toddler isn't such a bad thing.

Speaker 4:
[06:28] There are like three benefits to having a toddler. And this is one of them.

Speaker 2:
[06:31] Definitely one of them. All right. I'll think of what the other two might be.

Speaker 4:
[06:38] We'll be right back while she's thinking on that over her fruit snacks.

Speaker 2:
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Speaker 4:
[07:10] I am obsessed with fume. The first time, I've been using it for a few years now. The first time I held it, I naturally just started fidgeting with it. And it's built exactly for that. Like you can use it as a fidget, even instead if you don't want the like oral fixation craving satisfaction or don't need that anymore, it's still like an amazing little fidget that helps distract you instead of giving into a craving, which is super, super helpful. And it really is just like an easy swap. And I know those first few days when you're like moving away from the previous habit can be really, really brutal. But fume is such a valuable piece of support in that process, because again, not only does it satisfy that hand to mouth and oral fixation, the flavors are really delicious and you can change them up seasonally. So I know it's technically spring, but I'm still kind of clinging to like my cinnamony one. Like I had this cranberry kind of cinnamon flavor, but they also have flavors like crisp mint. If you like the sweeter fruitier flavors, they have raspberry and these really, really yummy ones. When you grab a Journey Pack, you'll also get a free gift just for using our code GALS. So tell us more.

Speaker 2:
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Speaker 4:
[08:44] Mother's Day is coming, baby, and this Mother's Day frame, what makes your mom special, with aura frames.

Speaker 2:
[08:52] Oh my gosh, I love my aura frame.

Speaker 4:
[08:54] Me too. I'm obsessed with it. It's in my kitchen. I love it so much. I want to give these to everybody. It's literally the perfect Mother's Day gift.

Speaker 2:
[09:02] I just added some new ones, some new photos from my phone to my frame last night, because I was scrolling through early 2024, and that's when June was so little, and I was like, this is such a baby. I just wanted to have a frame with a rotating digital photos that I can just have all my favorites just go in all day.

Speaker 4:
[09:21] It's the gift that keeps on giving, honestly.

Speaker 2:
[09:24] Truly. Also, my grandma has one and she loves it. So aura frames offer free unlimited storage. You can add as many photos and videos as you want.

Speaker 4:
[09:34] I love the videos.

Speaker 2:
[09:35] I know. They're so goofy. I have so many videos of you and I just screwing around.

Speaker 4:
[09:40] It plays my live photos.

Speaker 2:
[09:42] Oh no.

Speaker 4:
[09:43] I'm obsessed. I love it so much.

Speaker 2:
[09:45] Yeah. My favorite photos that rotate are like the candids of like something weird June was doing or like, you know, she, couple of like just her bare bum, like running through the kitchen, you know? And it's those just like chaotic, like motherhood moments that they just go by so fast. And what a great way to memorialize these moments that at the time, I'm sure I was just like, God bless you, but also like, man, you're only one and a half once. So Aura Frames, they are a top rated app. They reached number one in the app store on Christmas day in 2025. They are so great to gift. You can preload photos before it even ships. So straight out of the box, the recipient can plug it in and be like, Oh my God, you really do love me.

Speaker 4:
[10:31] Yeah, it's the best. Named number one by Wirecutter, you can save on the gifts moms love by visiting auraframes.com. For a limited time, listeners can get $25 off their best selling Carver Mat Frame with code GALS. That's auraframes.com promo code GALS. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. If you're like me and you ever wake up feeling sweaty, feeling real cold, feeling uncomfortable because of the temperature regulation fail in your bed, I'm telling you right now that temperature in your bedroom, in your literal bed can make or break your sleep. It can be very disruptive to your sleep to have your temperature fluctuating all throughout the night. This is a huge part of why I switched to Miracle Made Sheets. They are inspired by NASA technology, and they use silver-infused temperature-regulating fabric to help you sleep perfectly all night long.

Speaker 2:
[11:28] Yeah, NASA, Women in Stem. These NASA-inspired silver-infused fabrics, these sheets, they help regulate your body temperature, so whether you're a hot sleeper, a cold sleeper, if you just wake up clammy and it's not comfortable.

Speaker 4:
[11:44] The clam.

Speaker 2:
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Speaker 4:
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Speaker 2:
[13:21] Truly, it's so smart. I didn't know that a product like this existed until we got QoW as a sponsor. It's so smart. QoW is the number one rated business phone system on G2 with over 3,000 reviews. It's built for how modern teams work, and that's why more than 90,000 businesses from solo operators to growing full teams rely on QoW to stay connected, professional, and consistently reachable. It works wherever you are, so from an app on your phone or your computer, it lets you keep your existing number, which is amazing. You can add new numbers or teammates in just minutes. You can sync your CRM and rely on seamless routing and call flows as your business scales. Your whole team can handle calls and texts from one shared number. You're not going to miss any messages. No conversations are going to be disconnected. Everyone can see the full thread making replies faster and making those customers feel genuinely cared for. You're not going to miss a lead because you didn't get that voicemail or whatever it may be or a text message. So it's so easy. Everything is all together. It's very, very simple to use. And yeah, this is something that I think any business could truly benefit from.

Speaker 4:
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Speaker 2:
[15:20] Oh, I don't know what I did, man. Speaking of toddlers, I've been talking in weird ass voices a lot lately.

Speaker 4:
[15:27] Yeah, that felt like a me moment. You were possessed by a spirit that made no sense.

Speaker 2:
[15:34] Can I tell you June's current favorite song is that Sia song, which is called Titanium, but I feel like it should be called Fire Away.

Speaker 4:
[15:43] Okay. Fire away, fire away.

Speaker 2:
[15:47] It's like a club song. It's like David Guetta.

Speaker 4:
[15:50] I think it's just Guetta, but sure.

Speaker 2:
[15:52] Guetta, Greta.

Speaker 4:
[15:55] Greta.

Speaker 2:
[15:56] Yeah. 7 AM, that's a rough one. That's not a song for the morning. Okay. Anyway, I won't squeak. Philadelphia is a city and a port in southeastern Pennsylvania at the confluence of the, I don't know how to say this, Shoei-lil-kill? Shoei-kill?

Speaker 4:
[16:15] Shuck-lil?

Speaker 2:
[16:16] S-C-H-U-Y-L-K-I-L-L.

Speaker 4:
[16:21] Hold on. Shickle. Hold on. Give me a shekel and I'll get your pronunciation. Shell-kill.

Speaker 2:
[16:28] There's too many kills in that area too. I know it means something. I didn't look it up.

Speaker 4:
[16:33] Okay. Scoogle.

Speaker 2:
[16:35] You're kidding me.

Speaker 4:
[16:36] Nope. Scoogle. Okay. I mean, it's probably, I mean-

Speaker 2:
[16:41] Scoogle.

Speaker 4:
[16:41] Before you knock it, it's probably of like indigenous origin or just origin that isn't what we're used to.

Speaker 2:
[16:49] Yeah. I mean, Scoogle.

Speaker 4:
[16:51] Scoogle.

Speaker 2:
[16:52] But there's a lot of names like that in that region that it's like, I think they've got to be Dutch or something. Okay.

Speaker 4:
[16:59] Let's find out. Dutch. Oh yeah. The Dutch. You're right.

Speaker 2:
[17:03] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[17:04] You're right.

Speaker 2:
[17:05] They're fucked up.

Speaker 4:
[17:08] I myself have Dutch ancestry, so I don't know how up we are.

Speaker 2:
[17:11] And it shows.

Speaker 4:
[17:12] It really shows. Colonizer in me is strong.

Speaker 2:
[17:17] Scoogle?

Speaker 4:
[17:18] They call me Scoogle. Scoo-lin means to hide and coal means stream or creek. So it translates to like hidden river or hidden creek.

Speaker 2:
[17:27] There we go. Okay. That's the kill. The kill, you know.

Speaker 4:
[17:32] Coal.

Speaker 2:
[17:32] Stream. And the Delaware rivers.

Speaker 4:
[17:35] Nice.

Speaker 2:
[17:36] And there we go. It is the largest, meaning most pop, in the sense of most populous city in Pennsylvania and the sixth largest, most populous city in the United States. Philadelphia's nicknames include Philly, the city of brotherly love, we'll come back to it, the birthplace of America, the city that loves you back, the city of neighborhoods, the Quaker city and the Cradle of Liberty. Here is a fucking sentence. Well, actually two, exactly two sentences from Encyclopedia Britannica and they carry a lot of weight. Oh no. Philadelphia has been described both as the elegant, but rather jaded great lady and as the overage and sickly spinster of American cities.

Speaker 4:
[18:25] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[18:27] A more realistic look at Philadelphia, however, shows it to be a very modern and vigorous city arising in gracious counterpoint to the deep serenity of an older city that has provided gentle, but firm intellectual, economic, and humanitarian direction to the nation at whose birth it played midwife.

Speaker 4:
[18:49] Yes. Here we go. Put some respect on her name. She's not a washed up old crone. What is going on here?

Speaker 2:
[18:57] She's a midwife.

Speaker 4:
[18:58] My God. Jesus.

Speaker 2:
[19:02] She's a modern woman.

Speaker 4:
[19:04] Scathing.

Speaker 2:
[19:05] I know. It was like, Jesus. Encyclopedia Britannica, fucking relax.

Speaker 4:
[19:12] No offense, but.

Speaker 2:
[19:15] I love it when he goes overboard like this though. It's one of the things I love most about him.

Speaker 4:
[19:21] No offense, but Philly is an elegant, but rather jaded great lady. And as the overage and sickly spinster of American cities.

Speaker 2:
[19:32] Don't take this the wrong way, but like. What is a beautiful and elegant great lady? What is a NutriBullet? I don't know. We probably shouldn't say the whole thing. We probably shouldn't.

Speaker 4:
[19:50] What is a NutriBullet Vitamix Sensation 5200 Kitchen System?

Speaker 2:
[19:54] Compact.

Speaker 4:
[19:55] Compact Kitchen System. Okay. Might I ask?

Speaker 2:
[19:59] Pre-European contact. The area was inhabited. The good old days. For real, the good old days. The area was inhabited by the Lenape people, and that word meant or means original people or also grandfathers because their tribe was known to be peacekeepers in the region between other tribes, which is not to say they didn't get into scuffles, but they were kind of the more mature tribes. It was the vibe I got from the four minute video I watched. They're also called the Delaware people. So if you see tribes or people who are living under the name Delaware, like up in Eastern Canada, or even in like the Western United States, that's where these Lenape people were forced to move to. So they might be called, you might see random spots of Delaware in places where the state of Delaware is nowhere near. So they lived in the village of Shackamaxon in present day Philadelphia and the surrounding area. The Dutch, that was my guess, were the first Europeans to colonize up into what is now like New Jersey and Delaware and Pennsylvania in like the 1620s. My God, like way early. The Lenape were pushed out because of colonial expansion, territorial fighting between tribes in their ever shrinking spaces, and of course, disease, smallpox, etc. Philadelphia was founded in 1682 by William Penn, Billy Penn.

Speaker 4:
[21:44] Old Billy Penn.

Speaker 2:
[21:45] Old Billy Penn, an English Quaker, and he was just like kind of a smart guy, writer, advocate of religious freedom in England. I had to Google the difference between Quakers and Shakers because I always forget.

Speaker 4:
[22:02] They're always moving and shaking and quaking.

Speaker 2:
[22:04] Well, quaking and shaking are very similar like verbs. Okay, so they are both, they both have similar roots slash the same roots in Christianity. So they were related, but the Shakers split off in 1747 and they kind of went in a bit of a more dramatic direction, like maybe a little bit more, I'll choose my words carefully. No, I won't. A little bit more like fanatical, you know, not culty necessarily. Some could argue, but there's a movie that came out last year called The Testament of Anne Lee, and I have to watch it. It's about like how the Shakers branched off.

Speaker 4:
[22:47] Interesting.

Speaker 2:
[22:48] So the Quakers, on the other hand, believe in internal, highly direct and personal relationships with God, which is not to say that the Shakers don't, but that's what the Quakers believe. And they're a lot more modest. They worship silently. They're big into social justice, things like prison reform and abolition and pacifism. So they're like very chill. They're like hippie, kind of live and let live. Every person is equal, you know, don't be a dick.

Speaker 4:
[23:20] Don't be a dick. Yeah. Decent value to live by.

Speaker 2:
[23:24] Yeah. So in 1682, by this point, he had been granted a land charter by King Charles II because the king had owed Billy Penn's dad money. And then I guess the dad died. So the king was like, oh, well here you can have basically permission from me to have this land in the new world. So.

Speaker 4:
[23:50] Great. Thanks for handing out land that you totally have permission to just give away.

Speaker 2:
[23:56] So that's when his morals kicked in and he's like, no, these Lenape people already live here. So he landed in like late November 1682 and he met the Lenape people and he was able to, well, according to historical tradition, he made a treaty of friendship with the Lenape chief Tammany, Tammany, Tammany, under this old elm tree in what is now Fishtown in Philadelphia, which I know you like that. Neighborhood.

Speaker 4:
[24:29] I like Fishtown. I like Germantown a lot. I looked at a lot of places in Germantown.

Speaker 2:
[24:37] I just like the whole city. It's fun. City of neighborhoods.

Speaker 4:
[24:40] Oh, the best.

Speaker 2:
[24:41] So they had this treaty of friendship, which as far as I could tell, and according to the story was very on the up and up, very fair. He's a Quaker after all. So the Lenape gave Billy Penn a wampum belt and there's a photo of it on the drive, which is a belt, it's kind of wide, it's made out of blue and white beads made out of shell from the region.

Speaker 4:
[25:07] It's beautiful.

Speaker 2:
[25:08] So it has like two people, kind of holding hands. It's obviously like a friendship, we're on the same page sort of gift. You know what I mean? So this was purportedly a sign of their treaty and I guess whatever other documentation that Billy Penn had is believed to have been destroyed by his three sons because we can't have anything nice, I guess. Okay. So like, whatever they, it's my understanding that whatever they agreed on was not upheld in the long run. And also I think during the American Revolution, the US government asked Solanape for their help in exchange for some land back. And of course, they fucked him over on that. So anyway, but that was the intention was this Quaker guy coming to do what was right because the king had already said, this is your land, you can have it. So legally, quote unquote, right, it was his, but he was like, that's fucked up. I'm going to actually speak to the people who live here and make this agreement myself. So that's what he did. Cool. So as a Quaker, Penn had experienced religious persecution and wanted his colony to be a place where anyone could worship freely. This tolerance, which exceeded that of other colonies, led to better relations with the local Native tribes and fostered Philadelphia's rapid growth into America's most important city. So he's a good guy. I didn't dig too deep, but he was also a white guy, but also I have a couple pictures of him also on the drive. One is when he was like 22, and just look at his rosy pink lips.

Speaker 4:
[26:50] Yeah, they're very pink.

Speaker 2:
[26:52] He just looks like a beautiful little boy. That picture. And then the other one, he's just like, kind of he looks like, well, he's the Quaker Oats guy. He might actually be the Quaker Oats guy.

Speaker 4:
[27:03] He legitimately looks like the Quaker Oats guy.

Speaker 2:
[27:06] I might have been modeled after him now that I said that out loud, but.

Speaker 4:
[27:10] Unbelievable.

Speaker 2:
[27:11] He might be one of the least problematic men we've talked about on the show. Knock on wood, hopefully. If anyone knows different, I'd love to hear.

Speaker 4:
[27:20] Historical figures for sure. In the context of how terrible fucking everybody was to the indigenous population, he actually made an attempt to be decent.

Speaker 2:
[27:32] Religiously moral. I mean, yeah. Anyway, here's more another dramatic reading from a really good essay from Philadelphia encyclopedia dot org. We can't know all the thoughts that coursed through William Penn's mind when he chose Philadelphia as the name for his new city tucked onto the peninsula between the Delaware and the Schuylkill.

Speaker 4:
[27:56] Schuylkill.

Speaker 2:
[27:57] Schuylkill.

Speaker 4:
[27:58] Schuylkill.

Speaker 2:
[27:59] What we do know is that he chose boldly, aiming for the vault of heaven, daring irony to strike. The name he gave his city combined the Greek words for love, which is phileo and brother, which is Adelphos, setting up the enduring civic nickname, the city of brotherly love.

Speaker 4:
[28:24] God, I actually never knew that.

Speaker 2:
[28:26] Phileo Adelphos.

Speaker 4:
[28:29] I want a phileo mignon right now.

Speaker 2:
[28:32] We'll get to the food.

Speaker 4:
[28:34] Oh my God.

Speaker 2:
[28:35] The beef on WEC we finally had.

Speaker 4:
[28:37] Bitch, that was delicious. So good.

Speaker 2:
[28:40] That was the best thing I think I ate.

Speaker 4:
[28:42] Yeah. It's like basically a really good Arby's Roast Beef without the melted cheese.

Speaker 2:
[28:48] Well, that was a really good bun.

Speaker 4:
[28:50] Yeah. Well, that's the WEC. I know. That is the WEC right there, honey.

Speaker 2:
[28:54] Got to give it to the WEC.

Speaker 4:
[28:56] Give it up for the WEC.

Speaker 2:
[28:57] The city played a vital role during the American Revolution and Revolutionary War, serving as the central meeting place for the nation's founding fathers in hosting the first Continental Congress in 1774.

Speaker 4:
[29:09] Mouth Congress?

Speaker 2:
[29:11] Yeah. The second Continental Mouth Congress, during which the founders formed the Continental Army, elected George Washington as its commander, and adopted the Declaration of Independence on July 4, 1776. Can you believe that was only one sentence?

Speaker 4:
[29:28] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[29:29] This is from Wikipedia. Back to William Penn. My God, he's just such a sweet pea, I think, again.

Speaker 4:
[29:36] Yeah, careful.

Speaker 2:
[29:37] Penn planned a city on the Delaware River to serve as a port and place for government, hoping that Philadelphia would become more like an English rural town instead of a city. And being a quaker, a sweet pea quaker, Penn laid out roads on a grid plan to help keep the houses and businesses spread far apart with areas to allow for gardens and orchards. But the city's actual inhabitants didn't actually follow his plans, and instead crowded the present day port of Philadelphia on the Delaware River and subdivided and resold their plots. So they were just like, nope, this is easily four little houses. So much for that beautiful landscaping plan. But before Penn left for Philadelphia for the final time, he issued the Charter of 1701, establishing it as a city. So don't forget, he was British. He went back to England after like founding the city. Though poor at first, Philadelphia became an important trading center with tolerable living conditions by the 1750s. Benjamin Franklin, a leading citizen, I don't think he was born there. I think he moved there later.

Speaker 4:
[30:52] That makes sense.

Speaker 2:
[30:53] He helped improve city services and founded new ones that were among the first in the nation, including a fire company, like a fire department. And a hospital to care for the quote, sick, poor and insane living on the streets. He also founded the nation's first library, which is the Library Company of Philadelphia in 1731.

Speaker 4:
[31:18] Dang.

Speaker 2:
[31:19] These are old ass dates for this country.

Speaker 4:
[31:22] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[31:23] It served as the Library of Congress from the Revolutionary War up until 1800. And then Philadelphia also has the oldest zoo, first chartered in 1859.

Speaker 4:
[31:36] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[31:37] All right. Now we're going to get to the flag. Because I'm a flag hag. So the city's flag was officially adopted on March 27th, 1895. So it has two blue stripes, which are described in one article as UN blue. They wanted to make it the same as like the UN flag.

Speaker 4:
[32:01] Sure.

Speaker 2:
[32:01] So they're running down either side and then a golden stripe in the middle with the city's coat of arms in the middle of that stripe. I'm going to need you to go ahead.

Speaker 4:
[32:11] I'm looking at it.

Speaker 2:
[32:12] Okay. Got the coat of arms up?

Speaker 4:
[32:15] Yeah. I do have questions, but I'm letting you get to it.

Speaker 2:
[32:20] I don't think I'm going to answer them, honestly. Girl, I can't. I looked. It's like Sicily with the legs.

Speaker 4:
[32:29] With the legs. Oh, it's amazing.

Speaker 2:
[32:31] The disembodied limbs in flags.

Speaker 4:
[32:34] Yeah. Can we not? It's too much. I like these ladies though.

Speaker 2:
[32:38] I like them a lot. I like the ladies too. Okay. So from Wikipedia, the current version of the coat of arms was designed mainly by Colonel Frank Marks. Okay. M-A-R-X and adopted by the City Council on Valentine's Day, 1874. According to the city code, the city seal is arms, but not the one arm, just the arms. On a blue field, a fess golden between a plow above a ship, in full sail below, both proper. The crest, a right arm, nude, emboad, cooped at the shoulder, holding a pair of scales, all proper. Supporters, two females standing full face. The one on the left side of the shield, habited white and purple, crowned with an olive wreath. In her right hand, a scroll, charged with an anchor, all proper. The one on the right side, habited white and blue. In her left hand, a cornucopia, proper. Motto, Philadelphia Maneto, which translates to, let brotherly love continue or endure. So four guiding principles of the city are found on the flag and those are peace, hope, abundance and justice. So you can see those with the things that the ladies are carrying.

Speaker 4:
[34:06] And the scales in the severed arm.

Speaker 2:
[34:08] Yeah. Yes. Disembodied. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4:
[34:12] Sure. How did it get disembodied?

Speaker 2:
[34:16] I don't know. Yeah, that's what I thought. Well, the three legs, I feel like when you're looking, because I saw two more flags while I was looking at this flag that had just limbs. I don't understand it.

Speaker 4:
[34:31] It's an interesting design choice.

Speaker 2:
[34:33] I feel like we could do something a little bit more abstract.

Speaker 4:
[34:37] Or it could just be a set of scales. This is unnecessary. I want to know the intention and the meaning behind this singular arm.

Speaker 2:
[34:47] If there isn't one, let's create one.

Speaker 4:
[34:50] Let's unpack that.

Speaker 2:
[34:51] Yeah. When I think of Philadelphia, I think of pretty much one thing and that is the Mütter Museum.

Speaker 4:
[34:59] What about Bach Bar?

Speaker 2:
[35:01] What?

Speaker 4:
[35:01] That gorgeous view on the roof.

Speaker 2:
[35:03] Oh, that was good.

Speaker 4:
[35:05] On that like old school building.

Speaker 2:
[35:08] I had a grapefruit shrub beverage, like a beer. Oh my God, it was the best thing I've ever drank in my life. Anyway, I had such a good time in the two days we're in Philadelphia, but I did look into the Mütter Museum and I have to tell you all about it. Housed within the College of Physicians of Philadelphia and by college, it's not a school with students, it's a college in the sense of a member's organization.

Speaker 4:
[35:42] Kind of like what you're talking about in natural history crimes.

Speaker 2:
[35:45] Exactly. A society. That is in a really beautiful building and then the Mütter Museum is in part of that. It contains a collection of over 37,000 anatomical and pathological specimens, wax models, antique medical equipment, thousands of texts and volumes, and much, much more, like a nine-foot colon. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4:
[36:14] The mega-colon. Oh, my God. The soap lady.

Speaker 2:
[36:19] The soap lady. Oh, she's so beautiful.

Speaker 4:
[36:22] Stunning.

Speaker 2:
[36:23] So the museum was founded with a gift from Dr. Thomas Dent Mooter.

Speaker 4:
[36:29] Get him.

Speaker 2:
[36:30] What if your name was Dent? He's kind of a hottie, though. Look at his picture on the drive. Oh, okay. He's very severe.

Speaker 4:
[36:37] Mm, yeah, I could see it.

Speaker 2:
[36:39] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[36:41] I could see it.

Speaker 2:
[36:42] It's a really beautiful portrait of him, too. Look at his silken collar. His curls. I was so drawn to this photo drawing, whatever it is, daguerreotype.

Speaker 4:
[36:54] Yeah, she's gorge.

Speaker 2:
[36:56] Yeah. Dr. Mooder can fall. Okay.

Speaker 4:
[37:00] Get it.

Speaker 2:
[37:01] So he gifted this on December 11th, 1858. Here's a little bit about him because of course I dug in. He operated on hundreds of patients to repair deformities and became the first American surgeon in 1846 to administer ether anesthesia in the city of Philadelphia. I think he was the first doctor in the US to do it, but it happened in Philadelphia by him. He is best known for the Mooder flap, which he used in order to treat burn victims. And this procedure is still used today. Wow. So, I'm going to describe what the Mooder flap is, because I had to know. Also, do you know about ugly laws?

Speaker 4:
[37:51] What?

Speaker 2:
[37:52] They were rescinded until like the fucking 70s in some places. They were past laws that if you were deformed or if you had a disability that was physically visible, you could get fined for going into public spaces.

Speaker 4:
[38:13] Oh, for sake.

Speaker 2:
[38:15] Yeah, they were called ugly laws. I feel like we should do a drunk dive about them sometime. I'll put it on my list.

Speaker 4:
[38:20] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[38:20] But it's a real thing.

Speaker 4:
[38:22] I believe it. Every time we peel back another layer of human fucking disappointment and depravity, I just am like, God damn it.

Speaker 2:
[38:31] Not surprising.

Speaker 4:
[38:32] No.

Speaker 2:
[38:33] So, this was in like the 1940s. Okay. So, it was way after the American Revolution and before the Civil War. So, it wasn't like wartime deformities. But I'll get to that. This is from the Philly Voice. Quote, the Mutter flap was a revolutionary surgery intended to help burn patients. Between the open flames in kitchens and gas lamps used for lighting, fires were fairly common in the 19th century. And given the extremely flammable materials used in clothing, like the hoop skirts, didn't we talk about that in the Southern Bells?

Speaker 4:
[39:15] Yeah, I think we did. The fires were a real thing.

Speaker 2:
[39:18] Yeah. Women were especially susceptible to horrific burns. And this was an especially awful predicament for people who had burned their necks or their faces. So, you know how when you have a burn or like scarred skin like that over time, the skin gets really taut?

Speaker 4:
[39:40] It changes the elasticity throughout the healing process.

Speaker 2:
[39:43] So, if you had been burned and hadn't been treated properly on your neck, your whole mouth and jaw could be permanently opened?

Speaker 4:
[39:52] Mm, without the like proper elastic support of the skin that it like slaps?

Speaker 2:
[39:56] Well, without the proper treatment of the burn, because that skin is going to tighten up. I can't remember what it's called. Not contraction. There's a term that they used in this article, but it taught how the skin...

Speaker 4:
[40:09] It tightens and then like pulls the mouth over and open.

Speaker 2:
[40:12] So, there's... Those are those illustrations that you might have seen on the drive.

Speaker 4:
[40:17] I saw them.

Speaker 2:
[40:17] With the mouths all the way open and the skin is stretched.

Speaker 4:
[40:21] Oh, it's so sad.

Speaker 2:
[40:22] Yeah, so these people can't go into public. They can't get a job.

Speaker 4:
[40:26] Not under the laws that they were then.

Speaker 2:
[40:28] Well, and I don't know about the laws, but I do know that ugly laws were a real thing.

Speaker 4:
[40:33] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[40:33] But I think just stigma wise, you're not going to find a partner. You're not going to get a job. You can't go into public. Your family's probably, and not to mention the discomfort itself.

Speaker 4:
[40:44] Yeah, they're just in this time period for sure. Not that it's much better now, but the support for people with-

Speaker 2:
[40:51] In the early 19th century.

Speaker 4:
[40:52] Yeah, absolutely not. If you had facial deformities or anything that made you stand out, you were not in a good spot.

Speaker 2:
[41:03] No, so some of Mutor's patients had not been able to turn their heads or close their mouths in years. Years and years. And their appearances had changed so dramatically that people often dismissed them as quote monsters. His solution was a grafting procedure that used healthy skin from the patient's back. So the surgeon would make an incision along the upper back or shoulder, depending on where and how much skin was needed, thereby making a flap that could be pivoted and folded over the patient's contractures, there's the word, and stitched into place on similarly healthy skin below or next to the affected area. The back incision would then be sutured and dressed with straps pins and or lint moistened with warm water before the patient was sent to rest. So there's an open wound on your back, but the healthy skin is being grafted onto your head and neck or whatever, wherever else. And then you're just kind of left to heal. And so your back is scarred, but that's okay. Your, your face is not as bad as it used to be.

Speaker 4:
[42:22] All right, you can close your, imagine the quality of life improvement. They can eat, they can speak.

Speaker 2:
[42:28] I have a little Yelp review from one of his patients here coming up. A doctor would make frequent check-ins over the ensuing days to watch for signs of fever or infection, but the results were astonishing. So they had a testimony earlier in this article from a woman that said something like death would by far be a preferable solution to how I'm living every single day. So the same woman gushed about her new life in a letter to the doctor saying, the comfort and satisfaction I feel cannot be expressed. Your exertions in my behalf have been blessed far beyond my most sanguine expectations. You have set my head at liberty so I can turn it any way. Her literal head.

Speaker 4:
[43:14] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[43:15] At pleasure and without pain, you have relieved the drawing of my eye. She couldn't close her eyes. I am also unable to close my mouth with comfort, a blessing that cannot be described.

Speaker 4:
[43:29] Wow. That's amazing to get a testimonial too, historically.

Speaker 2:
[43:34] Yeah. There were a couple of them in this article. So he died at the age of just 48, but not before revolutionizing reconstructive surgery and essentially inventing it and changing countless lives. And also because his patients had sort of been regarded as quote unquote monsters or like people who should be hidden away with conditions we can't talk about, with things we shouldn't be seeing. And because he's a physician, he's like, well, I need to know these things. Doctors need to know these things. And that's why he started the museum. Very cool.

Speaker 4:
[44:14] Yeah, that's really cool.

Speaker 2:
[44:15] Yeah, so the connection to like the deformity monster, you know, illusion is sort of, yeah, the basis of the Mütter Museum.

Speaker 4:
[44:26] Yeah, I can really appreciate too, like the desire to, I mean, it's the same thing as like with the natural history stuff. The way that we acquire the specimens really matters. And I feel like, and I don't know everything about the collections at the Mütter Museum, understandably, but I feel like this was like a different process of acquisition that was very much in service to the extension of knowledge for medical care.

Speaker 2:
[44:56] Well, we'll get to it, actually.

Speaker 4:
[44:58] Oh, God. At least that's how it is now.

Speaker 2:
[45:01] It's not that. It's not that. Let's discuss it in a couple of minutes when I read you a couple more things. The colonial aspect and the sort of like, you know, ripe and pillaging of entire cultures and species is certainly not that. But it's, I mean, you're going to get to some unfortunate and avoidable missteps that have been made in the past when you are looking at a museum that collects specimens since the 19th century.

Speaker 4:
[45:33] Yes, of course.

Speaker 2:
[45:34] Yeah. Okay. Back to the museum itself. Originally, like I said, it was intended for the education of medical professionals, medical students, and invited guests of college fellows and did not become open to non-fellows until the mid-1970s. That seems late. I mean, 70s was a shockingly long time ago at this point, but yeah, it existed for over 100 years before that. Collection items, artifacts, and specimens were acquired globally. They came from absolutely everywhere. As Ella Wade, who was the curator from 1939 to 1957, says, quote, the Mütter Museum Committee, as the minutes show, proceeded to spend Dr. Mütter's money, like sailors on shore leave. Uh-oh, uh-oh. So what they would do, because they had all of this money from Dr. Mütter to collect specimens, their policy was to, I guess, the fellows and students and whoever, maybe? Or I guess whoever was on the committee, anytime they went traveling anywhere, if they picked up anything, they could expense the cost of the item and all associated expenses to, to, like their travel.

Speaker 4:
[46:59] Yeah. So they could have a big old party. They come home with one thing that maybe they acquired through shady means and then the whole thing is a write-off and approved.

Speaker 2:
[47:08] That's kind of the vibe I got because they have such a wide variety of so many random things. And some of them seem like, not a joke, there's a healthy sense of humor, I feel like, that's sort of threaded through this museum. And as I'm about to tell you about my new fucking hero, that's not an accident and I don't think that I'm-

Speaker 4:
[47:31] Far off in that.

Speaker 2:
[47:32] I don't think that I'm far off. Okay. So I guess maybe this is your permission to say a little bit the same way, even though it's a museum of medical anomalies. So that's how they got just a bunch of random shit all over the world without a seemingly very intentional method of going about or a very strict guideline of the things you were really necessarily trying to collect here. Sure. So today, the museum collection includes a vertebrae of John Wilkes Booth, half of Albert Einstein's brain, a cancerous growth from the mouth of President Grover Cleveland, and the liver slash livers and plaster torso cast of the Thai American conjoined twins, Chang and Ang Bunker. We saw them.

Speaker 4:
[48:25] We've talked about them, I think, on the show.

Speaker 2:
[48:27] We have, and in the context of exploitation of people with disabilities and also racism. And so, I mean, to this point and what I said about how they're collecting all these specimens for the museum, at the end of the day, what they had was a medical anomaly, and it is beneficial to understand the physicality of bodies like that. Anything beyond that, can't speak to.

Speaker 4:
[48:59] Right.

Speaker 2:
[48:59] Right. I'm sure there were many problematic elements there. But yeah, this is very on par with our National History Museum.

Speaker 4:
[49:08] I mean, all that said, similar to National History Museums, like the Mugen Museum is fascinating and definitely worth a visit. And even like the uglier parts of our history, including how we approached discovery of both the scientific and natural world nature, are wrought.

Speaker 2:
[49:29] And obtained samples of, yeah.

Speaker 4:
[49:32] Yeah. Are wrought with colonialism, racism, exploitation. I mean, in a lot of medical fields, literal torture and abuse. And like, you can hold all of those things and learn more about all of those things by interacting with, you know, some of the, some of the exhibits that they have there.

Speaker 2:
[49:50] So. Yeah. Sometimes like learning and education.

Speaker 4:
[49:53] You got to take the group as bad. You got to learn all of it.

Speaker 2:
[49:55] Has to be a little bit numb to what morally is right or wrong. Because it doesn't mean it's necessarily less beneficial to know.

Speaker 4:
[50:06] I wouldn't say it has to be, I wouldn't say it has to be numb. I think it should just be held with equal understanding and there's nuance. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[50:15] Anyway, well, this kind of brings me to one of what I remember being one of my favorite parts of the museum, the Chevalier Jackson foreign body collection. Oh my God.

Speaker 4:
[50:24] This was the best drawer upon drawer upon drawer. It was a little curio. Of things fished out of people.

Speaker 2:
[50:30] Drawer. Okay. It's a collection of 2,374 swallowed or inhaled objects that Dr. Jackson extracted from patients' throats, esophagus, and lungs during his 75 year long career. It's not even all the items. It's just most of them, but they're all in little drawers.

Speaker 4:
[50:51] Yeah. You pull these drawers out, they're all glass tops.

Speaker 2:
[50:54] Legos, beads, a needle.

Speaker 4:
[50:57] Oh, some of the stuff in there.

Speaker 2:
[50:58] Like a fucking hamster. There's just, I guess the museum also has a podcast called My Favorite Malady.

Speaker 4:
[51:05] Oh, cool.

Speaker 2:
[51:06] And then, okay, this is the thing about, I found my new hero in this Wiki article under their list of curators. Oh my God. Okay. Her name is Gretchen Worden. In 1974, Gretchen Worden, who had no prior work experience.

Speaker 4:
[51:21] At all.

Speaker 2:
[51:22] Wrote to the Mütter Museum's curator asking for a job. And she was hired as a curatorial assistant in 1975 before becoming the museum's curator in 1982 and its director in 1988.

Speaker 4:
[51:36] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[51:37] Worden was a frequent guest on David Letterman. Oh! Displaying a mischievous glee as she frightened him with human hairballs and wicked looking Victorian surgical tools only to disarm him with her antique laugh.

Speaker 4:
[51:52] She's you.

Speaker 2:
[51:53] I know! She also appeared in numerous PBS, BBC and cable television documentaries, including an episode of Errol Morris' show First Person, as well as NPR's Fresh Air with Terry Gross Ever Heard Of It, on the museum's behalf.

Speaker 4:
[52:08] No, but I don't want you to yell at me.

Speaker 2:
[52:10] Oh, my God! Fuck! Every day, I wonder more and more how we're friends.

Speaker 4:
[52:18] Well, you've never watched Parks and Rec, and you don't care about Twilight, so you have your things and I have mine.

Speaker 2:
[52:23] That's true. I don't have the energy to be mad at you, too. I'm mad at so many things in life.

Speaker 4:
[52:28] Dude, I know. It's exhausting. You're off the hook.

Speaker 2:
[52:31] I can't add you to my list.

Speaker 4:
[52:33] You're off the hook because we're too tired.

Speaker 2:
[52:35] I'm too exhausted to hold any type of resentment.

Speaker 4:
[52:41] Well, not any. Well, to me.

Speaker 2:
[52:42] To you. Literally to you. I would come to you and be like, I'm too tired to fight. I need to just. Gretchen Worden was also instrumental in the creation of the numerous Mütter Museum projects, including the popular Calendars and the book, The Mütter Museum, colon, of the College of Physicians of Philadelphia. During Worden's tenure, the visitorship of the museum grew from several hundred visitors each year to at the time of her death, more than 60,000 tourists annually.

Speaker 4:
[53:17] Wow. She clearly did a lot to infuse the museum with visitors.

Speaker 2:
[53:23] You can't look at that kind of shit all the time and not have a sense of levity to it. That's how I feel about our job too.

Speaker 1:
[53:31] Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[53:32] We talk about such important things and we spotlight important cases and concepts. To come at that stuff with deadpan? What? Get fucking real.

Speaker 4:
[53:43] There's got to be balance to the universe.

Speaker 2:
[53:46] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[53:47] There's got to be.

Speaker 2:
[53:48] All right. To close us out, I have some fun facts about Philly.

Speaker 4:
[53:52] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[53:52] Fun facts, capital P-H-P-H. Like I said, so many firsts. They had the nation's first daily newspaper, which was called the Philadelphia Packet and Daily Advertiser. It rolls off the tongue. No notes. This was founded in Philadelphia in 1784, Jesus, and had a six-year publication run, but for 1784 and also that time period. That's a very important time period to be publishing in Philadelphia. The Philadelphia Inquirer is the third oldest daily newspaper still being published in the United States, and the Philadelphia Tribune, founded in 1884, is the oldest continuously published African American newspaper.

Speaker 4:
[54:36] Hell yeah.

Speaker 2:
[54:37] The University of Pennsylvania was the first university in the United States.

Speaker 4:
[54:43] Damn.

Speaker 2:
[54:44] I didn't know that. Opened the nation's first medical school in 1765. How did they even have medicine then?

Speaker 4:
[54:52] Girl.

Speaker 2:
[54:53] The Children's Hospital of Philadelphia was founded in 1855, first hospital in the country devoted exclusively to kids. And so maybe it's not surprised to anyone that one out of every six doctors in the country receives medical training in Philadelphia. Also, The Pit. Oh my god.

Speaker 4:
[55:10] Oh, well, that's Pittsburgh, but yes.

Speaker 2:
[55:12] I know, but are you up to date?

Speaker 4:
[55:14] Yes. Very much so. Don't say anything else because I do not want to spoil.

Speaker 2:
[55:20] Well, it's not until tomorrow. Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[55:24] But I don't want to spoil last week. If people are behind, we would get so much hate.

Speaker 2:
[55:29] Oh, I won't spoil anything. It's just a phenomenal show with excellent acting. I also didn't know that the doctor with the really type A doctor is Brian Cranston's daughter.

Speaker 4:
[55:43] Oh, yeah. Well, she's likely on the spectrum, but yeah. Her character.

Speaker 2:
[55:47] Yeah. The character. She's very type A. Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[55:50] She's amazing. She's such a good actor.

Speaker 2:
[55:52] I know. Philadelphia became the site of the first organized protest against slavery when the 1688 Germantown Quaker Petition against slavery was drafted. It's also the site of the first African-American Church, which is the Mother Bethel AME Church, which was established in 1794.

Speaker 4:
[56:10] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[56:11] There's just so much history. It makes me dizzy. The building that is now the Lowe's Philadelphia Hotel, I think it's at 12th and Market Street. If I'm reading that as it was a typo. Anyway, the Lowe's Philadelphia Hotel was the country's first completely air-conditioned building.

Speaker 4:
[56:30] Hell, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[56:32] We can all appreciate that.

Speaker 4:
[56:33] Yes, we can.

Speaker 2:
[56:34] From its completion in 1901, Philly's City Hall was the world's tallest habitable building for seven years until 1908 when something else was built that was taller.

Speaker 4:
[56:47] Damn.

Speaker 2:
[56:48] But it is still the largest municipal building in the country.

Speaker 4:
[56:53] Cool.

Speaker 2:
[56:54] Great. The world's tallest habitable building, that's wild.

Speaker 4:
[56:58] That's pretty crazy, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[56:59] The city takes art very seriously. They're known as the mural capital of the US, with more than 2,000 outdoor murals around the city.

Speaker 4:
[57:10] They have that locally famous, I can't remember their name, mosaic artist. A lot of those murals are huge mosaics.

Speaker 2:
[57:20] Oh, dang.

Speaker 4:
[57:21] It's really, really, really cool.

Speaker 2:
[57:23] I remember seeing the little mosaic pothole fillers, like when people like guerrilla style go out and fill the potholes in their neighborhood, but they put like, you know, some artwork in there. I remember seeing those.

Speaker 4:
[57:34] Yeah, they have a whole Philadelphia's Magic Gardens is a giant mosaic garden.

Speaker 2:
[57:40] Oh, cool.

Speaker 4:
[57:42] Super cool.

Speaker 2:
[57:43] Yeah, the city is widely cited as having more public art than any other in the country. And it has like a insane number of statues too. I'm not sure if those are like public statues or they're like in museums, but lots of art.

Speaker 4:
[57:58] Damn. I looked up the Magic Gardens created by mosaic artist Isaiah Zagar. The Magic Gardens spans three city lots and includes indoor galleries and a large outdoor labyrinth. The mosaics are made up of everything from kitchen tiles and mirror shards to bike wheels, Latin American art and China plates. The space is open for public view from 11 a.m. to 6 p.m. Wednesday through Monday and close on Tuesdays. Check it out. But you'll see stuff like that like scattered throughout the city as well. It's not just in one space, but it's super cool.

Speaker 2:
[58:31] Yeah. I want to go back. Take me back. Dutch settlers introduced the soft pretzel in the 18th century.

Speaker 4:
[58:40] When I was trying to convince Bill to move there, I brought him back a soft pretzel magnet from Philly from my last time that I was there.

Speaker 2:
[58:46] It didn't work?

Speaker 4:
[58:48] Well, it did work. He was on board and then COVID happened and we didn't move.

Speaker 2:
[58:51] Oh, right. Yeah. COVID. I'm glad you didn't go.

Speaker 4:
[58:55] I know. There's still time.

Speaker 2:
[58:57] There's still time. There is a lesser known Philly sandwich. Locals enjoy roast pork with broccoli rob and provolone in addition to the more famous cheesesteak.

Speaker 4:
[59:09] Broccoli rob? Yeah. What's that? I can only think of broccoli rob from the office.

Speaker 2:
[59:16] I think it's like broccolini. Isn't it? B-r-o-c-o-l-i-r-a-b-e, rob.

Speaker 4:
[59:22] Rapini. Oh yeah, it is. It's like broccolini. Oh, it's different though.

Speaker 2:
[59:27] It's like leafy or broccolini.

Speaker 4:
[59:29] What's the difference between broccolini and broccoli r-? Is it rob or rabe?

Speaker 2:
[59:33] Rob.

Speaker 4:
[59:34] Broccolini has long slender stems topped with small florets and broccoli rob is made up of leafy greens with an occasional floret. Am I getting my mind blown that that broccoli rob name is a double entendre joke?

Speaker 2:
[59:50] Yeah, you are. Broccoli rob is a real thing. And that's why it was funny because it's R-A-B-E, but it's pronounced rob. So like their college friend, broccoli rob.

Speaker 4:
[59:58] I just thought it was funny because it was like this inexplicable reason. Like we don't have the lore as to why rob is broccoli rob.

Speaker 2:
[60:06] The lore is included if you know what broccoli rob is.

Speaker 4:
[60:10] No, no, I don't like this. I don't like this.

Speaker 2:
[60:14] I just, I knew something more about the office than you did for just a brief second.

Speaker 4:
[60:19] You did, and that's great. And I'm fine with that. And now I don't know what I know and what I don't know and what's real and what isn't real.

Speaker 2:
[60:27] Well, I'm almost done with my segment, so bear with me.

Speaker 4:
[60:30] Oh, God.

Speaker 2:
[60:31] So next time we go to Philly, also, I have to go to, okay, I don't know if it's reading or reading because it isn't, isn't it Reading, Pennsylvania?

Speaker 4:
[60:39] It is. It's Reading. You nailed it.

Speaker 2:
[60:40] Okay. So the Reading Terminal Market is the longest running farmers market in the United States. So they're open year round because it's indoors. Vendors sell everything from fish, vegetables, chocolate, flowers, cheese, probably some broccoli rabe if it's in season. Also, there's a place in old city north of Arch Street, and between front and the second streets is Elphriths Alley, which is America's oldest continually inhabited street.

Speaker 4:
[61:16] Crazy.

Speaker 2:
[61:16] How did they even come up with this shit?

Speaker 4:
[61:19] Well, I mean, if you think about it, if you're the first modernized, they're the first city. So people have just been the first city in the newly established United States. Obviously, these are like the oldest through a colonial mindset. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[61:38] Didn't we say Albany was the first city?

Speaker 4:
[61:40] I don't know.

Speaker 2:
[61:41] I wasn't listening to myself. Okay. It's called Center City because 25% of the population of the United States lives within five hours of Philadelphia. The fuck?

Speaker 4:
[61:53] Honestly, this was like a huge reason.

Speaker 2:
[61:55] Why don't we do more shows in Philadelphia?

Speaker 4:
[61:56] It's a huge reason why I wanted to move there. They have a great train system that goes to a lot of different cities throughout the East Coast.

Speaker 2:
[62:02] Trains.

Speaker 4:
[62:03] I know.

Speaker 2:
[62:04] Many East Coast cities are less than five hours from Philadelphia with Washington DC and New York City being the closest major cities, which are both within the five hour radius. My last fun fact, if the Liberty Bell rang, it would be in E flat.

Speaker 4:
[62:19] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[62:21] And that's my segment. Hope you learned something.

Speaker 4:
[62:23] That's all we need to know about Philadelphia.

Speaker 2:
[62:26] Mutters flap. And E flat.

Speaker 4:
[62:29] Dude, the flap, the flap and the flat. Unreal. I went to the Liberty Bell with Bill. Super disappointing. It's so boring. It's like people that go to Plymouth Rock and they expect to see like a huge rock. The Liberty Bell like, yeah, it's cool.

Speaker 2:
[62:45] But it's like, it's certainly not the biggest bell in the country as we know.

Speaker 4:
[62:49] No, it's not.

Speaker 2:
[62:51] I don't remember what the biggest one is, but-

Speaker 4:
[62:53] Was that Buffalo? Was that the Buffalo Crimes episode?

Speaker 2:
[62:56] I don't know.

Speaker 4:
[62:57] No. One of y'all has the biggest bell from a recent episode and our brains wipe the second we turn off recording, so-

Speaker 2:
[63:04] Somewhere in the US is the biggest bell in America.

Speaker 4:
[63:09] God bless Philly. God bless all of your information.

Speaker 2:
[63:14] Also, Betsy Ross, there is no evidence to support the idea that she sewed the first American flag.

Speaker 4:
[63:21] Ish.

Speaker 2:
[63:22] So don't bother going to the house. Not worth it. Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[63:26] Go there instead.

Speaker 2:
[63:27] See the soap lady.

Speaker 4:
[63:28] All right. Let's take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsors and then come back to get into some really fucked up shit.

Speaker 2:
[63:36] Great.

Speaker 4:
[63:37] Nope.

Speaker 2:
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Speaker 4:
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Speaker 2:
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Speaker 4:
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Speaker 2:
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Speaker 3:
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Speaker 4:
[70:46] Okay, so like I've been saying this whole time, this case is really dark to, we'll get to it, but to the point where there's a lot of detail that I didn't include because I literally, yeah. Anyway, okay. Okay. This is what happens when I start with weirdest true crime stories, insert city, state, et cetera, and then I get hooked in, and then I get in too deep, and then by the time it's like, maybe I could go back, it's too late.

Speaker 2:
[71:17] Can't go back.

Speaker 4:
[71:18] But all that said, I was compelled to talk about this, and I do talk about this a little bit later, because I feel like it was a huge sensation at the time when we, literally this happened like the year that we were born. So I wasn't familiar with this, and I feel like it's not a common serial killer story across a lot of current true crime podcasts. So it felt so important in that way to talk about it. So, okay. Have you ever heard of Gary Heidnik?

Speaker 2:
[71:49] Oh, I don't think so.

Speaker 4:
[71:51] Okay, well, he's not good.

Speaker 2:
[71:54] Okay.

Speaker 4:
[71:55] He was born on November 22nd, 1943, a Sagittarius in Eastlake, Ohio. I promise you, he commits his crimes in Philadelphia, so it does fit. His early life, like the early lives of most serial killers, was fraught with instability and abuse. After his parents divorced when he was only two, he spent years in the care of an aunt before returning to his father and stepmother, like with his brother. Heidnik and his brother Terry, Gary and Terry.

Speaker 2:
[72:22] Oh, Jesus Christ.

Speaker 4:
[72:23] Were off to a tough start.

Speaker 2:
[72:25] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[72:26] Later described their father as a man of extreme cruelty. Gary suffered from a lifelong bedwetting problem, and to humiliate him, his father would force him to hang his stained sheets out the window for the entire neighborhood to see.

Speaker 2:
[72:38] Oh, that'll help. That is bound to fix the problem. Uh-huh.

Speaker 4:
[72:43] He also claimed his father once dangled him by his ankles from a second story window. So maybe we could like-

Speaker 2:
[72:49] Be blanket.

Speaker 4:
[72:50] Not create serial killers with this kind of behavior. That would be cool.

Speaker 2:
[72:54] Yeah. Have we checked on blanket?

Speaker 4:
[72:57] Right. Well, I think blanket's doing the best they can at this point. In school, the behavioral cracks really started to show. Gary was socially isolated. He refused to make eye contact. He was often teased for his oddly shaped head, which apparently resulted from a childhood fall from a tree. Oh no. I know. Kids are cruel. Despite his social struggles, he was academically gifted. He tested with an IQ of 148. So he was like really smart.

Speaker 2:
[73:28] Because his head was so big. Maybe.

Speaker 4:
[73:30] This brilliance, however, was coupled with a volatile temper and a disdain for women. He once screamed at a female classmate that she wasn't, quote, worthy enough to speak to him.

Speaker 2:
[73:41] Okay.

Speaker 4:
[73:42] Yeah. So maybe some of the social problems might be self-inflicted. His trauma that's coming out at school.

Speaker 2:
[73:52] Oh my. Okay.

Speaker 4:
[73:53] At 17, Hyde-Nic joined the Army, which I obviously have feelings about. The Army and police work are such hotbeds of recruitment for like wayward young white men with mental health issues and histories of violence. It's a huge fucking problem, but we can save that for another day. But at least this guy was pursuing medical training and not like direct combat.

Speaker 2:
[74:12] We never save it for another day.

Speaker 4:
[74:13] We never save for another day. So he gets through his medical training without red flags, but after completing training, his health begins to decline noticeably. While stationed with the 46th Army Surgical Hospital in West Germany in August of 1962, he began complaining of severe headaches, dizziness, blurred vision, and nausea. A hospital neurologist initially diagnosed him with gastroenteritis, but further observation revealed symptoms of mental illness for which he was prescribed anti-psychotic medication.

Speaker 2:
[74:45] Hey, maybe that's what you need for your gastroenteritis.

Speaker 4:
[74:48] Yeah, maybe, but I don't have gastroenteritis. That's a different condition.

Speaker 2:
[74:51] Oh, I thought you did.

Speaker 4:
[74:53] No, I have gastroparesis, which is different. I think gastroenteritis mostly covers more swaths of stomach issues. If you have nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, it's not a specific thing like gastroparesis.

Speaker 2:
[75:09] Oh, got it. Okay.

Speaker 4:
[75:10] Oh my God. Why don't you have all this information about everything?

Speaker 2:
[75:13] I just hear gastro.

Speaker 4:
[75:15] I get it. In October of 1962, Hydenic was transferred to a military hospital in Philadelphia, where he was officially diagnosed with what they de-turned at the time, quote, schizoid personality disorder, and subsequently honorably discharged from the army due to mental disabilities. Returning to civilian life, his instability and violent behaviors escalated.

Speaker 2:
[75:44] So, he was discharged.

Speaker 4:
[75:47] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[75:48] Was he medicated? Was he overseen by the VA or anything like that?

Speaker 4:
[75:52] I don't know if the VA was much of a thing in 1962, but he was transferred to a military hospital in Philly. He got the diagnosis. He's put on antipsychotics, but I don't know. It doesn't sound like his care was being meticulously managed. I think it was just like, yeah. It's like, okay, yeah, you've got this diagnosis. You're not in the army anymore. You got the diagnosis at the military hospital that set you up, and now you got to manage it. I don't think the managing it was happening.

Speaker 2:
[76:19] Got it.

Speaker 4:
[76:20] Between 1962, the year he was discharged from the army and got this diagnosis, and the year of Our Lord 1987, he attempted suicide at least 13 times. He was in and out of psychiatric hospitals. He did work briefly as a nurse, but was fired for poor attendance and being rude to patients. But Gary was a little savvy. He appeared to have an eye for money making. Apparently in 1971, he tried to establish the United Church of the Ministries of God, which was a congregation that started with only five followers, and I don't think it really grew. But he also grew a small investment into a fortune of over $500,000 through the stock market. So he had like, and that's a lot of money in the 70s. That's a lot of, I mean, that's a lot of fucking money now.

Speaker 2:
[77:03] But he was very smart.

Speaker 4:
[77:05] He clearly found ways to make a living. His first major brushes with the law were violent precursors to the main event here. In 1976, he was charged with shooting at a neighbor. In 1978, he kidnapped a young woman named Alberta Davidson, the sister of his girlfriend at the time, and held her captive in a locked storage room in his basement where he repeatedly raped her.

Speaker 3:
[77:30] Oh, Jesus.

Speaker 4:
[77:32] He served barely four years in prison for this offense, as well as mental institutions, before being paroled and essentially completely put back into the community in 1983.

Speaker 2:
[77:46] I am so relieved that we are locking people up for weed.

Speaker 4:
[77:51] Yeah, isn't that great?

Speaker 2:
[77:52] When people like this are getting four-year sentences.

Speaker 4:
[77:55] After being released, he wanted to find love, so he enrolled in a, quote, matrimonial service, aka pre-internet Tinder. He was matched for the woman named Betty Disto, and the two exchanged letters for the better part of two years before finally meeting in person and getting married in 1985. Well, by 1986, Betty had enough of his abuse. She left, she filed for divorce. Like many abusive men, the response is often an escalation of violence, and that's exactly what happened, but in one of the most depraved and fucked up ways that I have read in a minute. So after losing his wife, he doesn't go after her, which is fortunate for her. Instead, and I think this connects back to like the, you're not worthy enough to speak to me kind of ideation.

Speaker 2:
[78:43] That was weird.

Speaker 4:
[78:44] He becomes obsessed with the idea of creating a perfect race. That would be worthy of his brilliance. To do so, he kidnapped and enslaved 10 black women, raping and impregnating all of them.

Speaker 2:
[79:00] Is he white? Yes. This is like a theme in the Epstein file shit too. It's the racist black men having weird rape, procreation fantasies about just opposite, or different races, I guess. I don't know. I think I've been hearing a lot about this as a really problematic white supremacy kink.

Speaker 4:
[79:29] Mm-hmm, yep. Well, yeah, that's kind of where it comes from. So this is from an interview with his lawyer, because he didn't give interviews, asking why he targeted black women. And the lawyer's response was this, quote, he was trying to enslave 10 girls to have a baby with all of them, and he was going to create a perfect race. He believed that the races eventually, hundreds of years from now, would all be mixed and there would only be one race. And that's when we would find peace. He believed white people should mix with black people and vice versa so we could get closer to a perfect race. He believed tall people should meet with short people and short people should never meet with short people. He had theories and thought that he was going to improve society. So it's like this weird eugenics thing, and that like white supremacist compulsion where like the only way to achieve perfection is to also infuse this with whiteness. So I'm going to kidnap these women and then quote unquote dilute the skin tone.

Speaker 2:
[80:31] With our powers combined.

Speaker 4:
[80:33] It's like, the fuck?

Speaker 2:
[80:35] Yeah. It's very weird.

Speaker 4:
[80:38] So yeah, this did end up producing a couple of children. I don't know like the exact figure and I didn't, I really didn't want to include much about these kids because it's too much. It's obviously they're adults now. I mean, this happened the year that we were born, but it just, yeah, it's, yeah, yeah. I mean, he did have a child that tried to fight against his reception of the death penalty. So it's just a very complicated.

Speaker 2:
[81:11] So his kids are-

Speaker 4:
[81:13] And I think that might have been a child that he had had with his wife, Betty, not like this, but yeah. It's like the kids part is a little bit confusing and gray to me, and I was already like so horrified by everything else that I read that I just didn't pursue that thread about how many children he ended up having under these circumstances and where they are now. I didn't go down that road.

Speaker 2:
[81:37] And it's not beside the point, but it's not the main point.

Speaker 4:
[81:42] It's not the main point. And I just personally, I just didn't have the spoons to follow that thread.

Speaker 2:
[81:49] That's fair.

Speaker 4:
[81:50] Because the circumstances around how at least the products of this violence were born are devastating enough. And I also didn't include everything about that because I fucking physically couldn't. So or emotionally and emotionally couldn't. So between November of 1986 and March of 1987, so less than a year, Heidnik kidnapped at least six women. Josefina Rivera, 25, was the first taken on November 25th. Sandra Lindsay, 24, followed on December 3rd. Lisa Thomas, 19, was taken on December 23rd. Deborah Dudley, 23, was taken on January 2nd. Jacqueline Askins, 18, was taken on January 18th. And Agnes Adams, 24, was the final victim on March 23rd. His MO was...

Speaker 2:
[82:38] They're also young.

Speaker 4:
[82:39] Very young, and his MO was often to like, drive around the city, maybe, you know, like in one specific instance, he was like at a gas station, and a young woman was kind of there alone, and asked if she needed a ride, and you know, they have an exchange, and then the next thing she knows, she's being like either manipulated or forced into the car, and then knocked unconscious, and she wakes up at his house. So it's that kind of pattern where it's like approach, maybe say you need a little help, or offer help to the person that you're approaching, establish a tiny bit of connection, either lure them or get them against their will into the vehicle, hit them with a blunt object, knock them out, they wake up. In his basement, in a self-dug pit, which there is a photo of the pit, and there would be between like six to 10 women in there at any given time, in his basement floor at the 3520 North Marshall Street.

Speaker 2:
[83:44] It looks like it's just a hole. The Hannibal Lecter, what's the Buffalo Bill?

Speaker 4:
[83:50] It's interesting that you would say that.

Speaker 2:
[83:52] Is this him?

Speaker 4:
[83:54] Well, it's not him, but this crime was a major inspiration for that movie.

Speaker 2:
[84:03] Oh, no. It does look just like the hole in his fucking creep ass basement.

Speaker 4:
[84:10] They were subjected to unimaginable torture that is genuinely so horrific, like literal plantation slave owner shit that I could not include those details in my notes because they made me physically ill to read. And cases like this are already re-traumatizing enough to our listeners of color, for which I sincerely apologize. So I'm just not going there.

Speaker 2:
[84:30] Mm-hmm, thank you for not.

Speaker 4:
[84:32] Yup, but for better or for worse, like I said, I didn't see this covered in a lot of current or modern day true crime spaces, so I figured, okay, I'll go for it. So tragedy struck on February 7th, 1987 when Sandra Lindsay, one of the victims, was murdered by Heidnik via a combination of starvation and fever. And again, I will not be giving all of the details here, but Heidnik did not allow her a moment's peace in life or in death. So essentially cannibalism and trophies from her body is all I'm really willing to say out loud, but like the shit that I did read is stuff I will never forget.

Speaker 2:
[85:14] Okay, I probably won't be googling this guy.

Speaker 4:
[85:17] I wouldn't super recommend it, but in March, so months into the surviving women's captivity, some had been held since November or December of the previous year. Heidnik began experimenting with electric shock as torture.

Speaker 2:
[85:32] No.

Speaker 4:
[85:33] This resulted in the electrocution murder of Deborah Dudley. Again, I will not share the crude means through which she administered these shocks, but if you really need to know that information, it is out there. But yeah, he basically like created... He used a device in a very specific way with like crude instruments and like a children's pool basically.

Speaker 2:
[85:57] Yeah. Okay. I got it.

Speaker 4:
[85:59] The nightmare finally ended on March 24th, 1987 because of the bravery of Josefina Rivera, one of the victims. She managed to convince Heidnik to let her out temporarily to see her family. Once free, she contacted the police. So this is from Medium and has a little more detail about what went down here. Quote, she had convinced him to take her back to her home in the city so that she could say goodbye to her family as she was now going to be Gary's girlfriend and help him run his fantasy baby farm. So she basically was like, yes, I believe in you. I want to be part of this project.

Speaker 2:
[86:33] I'm totally going along with this. I just really want to say goodbye to my family.

Speaker 4:
[86:38] And then I'll leave them and I'll be with you forever.

Speaker 2:
[86:42] I was going to say, how does her wanting to go say goodbye to her family, convince him to let her go? But yeah, pretending to fully lean in.

Speaker 4:
[86:50] I think she had spent the better part of her time in his captivity under his torture. I mean, the fact that she could keep her sanity and her wits about her enough to make this valiant attempt at manipulating him, which did work. I think she got into a survival, like she really tapped into a survival instinct where it's like, okay, if I butter him up and I make him think that I'm in on this, maybe I can get out and at least tell somebody, get some fucking help for all of us.

Speaker 2:
[87:21] That's incredible.

Speaker 4:
[87:22] Because multiple women are now dead and these women are just being tortured and raped and then like...

Speaker 2:
[87:27] They have no hope of getting out.

Speaker 4:
[87:29] Yeah, exactly. And God only knows how many times they were, I mean, obviously it was less than a year, but like raped, impregnated, then with the torture, like these pregnancies are not sustainable. And it's just like, it's a whole thing. She had him park just a little bit away from her home so that her family would not be able to identify his car. Very smart. Like, we don't want them to see. I just need to walk up. I'm going to say goodbye and then I'm going to leave. Gary decided to park at a nearby gas station and he gave her 15 minutes to say her goodbyes. And if she wasn't back within 15 minutes, he threatened that something bad was going to happen. Josephina got out of the car and calmly walked down to her home. When she was out of Gary's site, she ran as fast as she could to a nearby payphone and called 911, notified them that Gary was a dangerous man who had captives held in his basement. Luckily for her, there was a police officer nearby who went to the location. Like went to her, some went to her, some went to his house. When officers arrived at the North Marshall Street home, they found the dismembered head of Sandra Lindsay in a stockpot, and three women chained in the basement pit, miraculously alive. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[88:43] Stockpot. He was cooking her?

Speaker 4:
[88:46] I mean, I think he want like, that's like the trophy thing.

Speaker 2:
[88:50] But there wasn't cooking it. It was just in.

Speaker 4:
[88:51] Well, there was cannibalism. She was the one who had been mutilated after death. It's a little bit of everything all rolled into one, as they say. Damn.

Speaker 2:
[89:04] That's Jesus. Imagine walking into that. Like, oh, we got a tip. This might be happening. It might be something a little bit like this. Then you walk in and there's a woman's head in a pot.

Speaker 4:
[89:16] And there were.

Speaker 2:
[89:18] And you have to work backwards from that.

Speaker 4:
[89:20] Right. And there were confessions from him of not only cannibalism, but forced cannibalism onto the survivors.

Speaker 2:
[89:30] Oh my God.

Speaker 4:
[89:32] And I will, you know, it's one of those things where it's like, I don't want to believe that that's even true. I want. I would rather believe that this guy is so sick that he didn't do those things. He just said he did. But I don't.

Speaker 2:
[89:47] I imagined it.

Speaker 4:
[89:48] Yeah. I don't.

Speaker 2:
[89:49] Wow.

Speaker 4:
[89:50] If you're willing to chain up women in a pit in your basement, the bottom, like the limit does not exist.

Speaker 2:
[89:57] If there's anything we have learned in the last several months, it is that the limit does not exist.

Speaker 4:
[90:02] Does not fucking exist. Yeah. Hyde Nick was arrested later that morning at another gas station. I was the same one that he was with, or if he took off, I'm not sure, but he was arrested promptly. Hyde Nick's trial in 1988 was a media sensation. His attorney, Charles Peruto Jr. argued for an insanity defense, noting Hyde Nick's severe schizophrenia and history of institutionalization. To make Hyde Nick, quote, look the part for the jury, Peruto instructed him not to bathe or trim his beard for months. While he was in custody. However, the prosecution countered with Hyde Nick's stock market success, arguing that a truly insane person could not be such an astute investor, which, you know, ableist in its own way. However, it did work. The state wasn't having it. They didn't give him an insanity plea. He was convicted on July 1st of 1988 of two counts of first degree murder and multiple counts of kidnapping and rape. He was sentenced to death, a rare occasion where I can't help but support the use of the death penalty. However, it gives me no pleasure that he never appealed conviction and allegedly eventually petitioned for himself to be executed. He did not want to continue living. So I hate that he got what he wanted.

Speaker 2:
[91:23] I didn't know you could do that.

Speaker 4:
[91:24] Well, I don't think you can necessarily just out of the gate, just be like, yeah, kill me. But I think if your lawyer is like, okay, it's time to start the appeals process and he's like, no. In fact, I'd like to submit my request to be executed. I'm sure you can just do that. Whether a court's going to honor it, you're just going to be put in the queue, but it's basically just the absolute opposite of trying to not be executed to be like, I'm cool with it and can we speed it up?

Speaker 2:
[91:50] I know. I guess there is room for debate about how much it costs to execute a person versus keep them alive for the rest of their life. Also, it depends on their age. Also, just putting a number on these things is really gross. But all of these things do factor into these kinds of decisions. I would think that if somebody was petitioning for you to execute them, that would be even more of a reason for you to deny that. Fuck you, you're not getting off that easy because in some cases, you could very validly look at it as that's the easy way out to be executed.

Speaker 4:
[92:27] I did want to double-check this because, again, I didn't follow the children thread, so I wasn't sure that I did encounter children later. He did not successfully, thank God. No, I know, I know. He did not successfully have children, despite impregnating many of these women. None of those pregnancies came to fruition. He did, however, have children with different women from before.

Speaker 2:
[92:56] Got it. None of them were his rape, kidnap victims children.

Speaker 4:
[93:02] From this particular situation. No, I don't know the circumstances.

Speaker 2:
[93:06] That we know of.

Speaker 4:
[93:07] Right. I don't know the circumstances surrounding their births. They're certainly not... It says here that there was three different women. So it was people before Betty, likely.

Speaker 2:
[93:16] How many kids did he have?

Speaker 4:
[93:18] It says three.

Speaker 2:
[93:19] Oh.

Speaker 4:
[93:19] But yeah, from before this. So I want to just correct myself.

Speaker 2:
[93:23] Okay.

Speaker 4:
[93:23] Okay, this is the last little bit. So yeah, he petitions for himself to be executed. He is executed like 11 years later. So yeah, that petition to be executed, I think is exactly kind of what we were just discussing. It's like-

Speaker 2:
[93:35] It takes a long time.

Speaker 4:
[93:36] We're not filing an appeal, and instead he's basically saying, he's filing officially like, yup, do it, I'm ready. And then it takes however long it takes to get to that moment. And that moment happened on July 6th of 1999. Gary Heidnick was executed by lethal injection, and he was the last person to be executed in the state of Pennsylvania. The impact of Heidnick's crimes remains a dark stain on Philadelphia's history. The North Marshall Street Address became synonymous with, quote, the house of horrors. Beyond the local trauma, the case reached a global level of infamy at the time, and obviously had influence on popular culture. Because like I said, it was a lot of the basis for the Buffalo Bill character in Silence of the Lambs.

Speaker 2:
[94:21] That's the first damn thing I thought of.

Speaker 4:
[94:23] Right.

Speaker 2:
[94:24] And just like the whole situation, you're asking for help. Oh, my arm's in a sling, can you help me with this? Because it's also like some Todd Bundy shit. Todd Bundy, Ted Bundy. What the fuck is wrong with me?

Speaker 4:
[94:37] No.

Speaker 2:
[94:37] Some Bundy shit.

Speaker 4:
[94:38] Some Bundy shit.

Speaker 2:
[94:39] Yeah. Wow.

Speaker 4:
[94:41] But yeah.

Speaker 2:
[94:42] yikes.

Speaker 4:
[94:43] Yeah. It's a big yikes. It's a big yikes of a case. Not sad this motherfucker is dead at all.

Speaker 2:
[94:50] No, actually, when you said July 99, when he got executed, my first thought was, God damn, that was a good summer. Not because of this, but also I remember the summer of 1999.

Speaker 4:
[95:03] The summer between seventh grade and eighth grade was pretty amazing.

Speaker 2:
[95:07] A beautiful summer.

Speaker 4:
[95:08] It was a good summer. We kissed a lot of boys that summer.

Speaker 2:
[95:10] I didn't kiss any boys till high school.

Speaker 4:
[95:13] Oh, you didn't? Oh, that's right. Anyway.

Speaker 2:
[95:16] But there was a lot of sexual tension.

Speaker 4:
[95:18] Some of us kissed a lot of boys that summer.

Speaker 2:
[95:22] Yeah, you hoe.

Speaker 4:
[95:23] Ah, blue-haired little hoe. Anyway, sorry, Philadelphia.

Speaker 2:
[95:30] Sorry, Philadelphia, and thank you to Madeline Capezza.

Speaker 4:
[95:35] Oh, Maddie, love yourself.

Speaker 2:
[95:38] Love yourself.

Speaker 4:
[95:39] Step away from the Country Time lemonade packet and the Gold Four Loko. And the world of the Buzzballs.

Speaker 2:
[95:44] Give yourself a bigger budget.

Speaker 4:
[95:46] Oh, please, God. We appreciate you.

Speaker 2:
[95:50] Yeah, come join us on Uncorked as always for this episode ad-free and a lot more content. I don't even want to talk about it. It's kind of embarrassing.

Speaker 4:
[96:00] There's so much. We really show it all.

Speaker 2:
[96:03] We might be doing too much.

Speaker 4:
[96:05] It might be too much. It's not. We're not gonna stop.

Speaker 2:
[96:09] We don't have a money manager. See you next week. Bye.

Speaker 4:
[96:13] That's insane. Bye bye.

Speaker 2:
[96:16] Thanks for listening to Wine and Crime. Our cover art is by Danielle Sylvan. Music by Phil Young and Corey Wendel. Editing by Jonathan Camp. Our production manager is Andrea Gardner. For photos, sources and other resources, head to wineandcrimepodcast.com. You can follow us on all the socials at Wine and Crime Pod. If you'd like to show your support and get access to all sorts of wine fueled bonus content, check out our premium channel at wineandcrimepodcast.com/uncorked. Cheers.