transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] I think this is a really interesting question. If you live in a space, whether it's an apartment complex or with roommates, where others could hear you, are you obligated to be quiet when you have sex? Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks Podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa.

Speaker 2:
[00:23] And Xander Marin.

Speaker 1:
[00:24] I'm a sex therapist with over 20 years of experience.

Speaker 2:
[00:27] And I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step-by-step techniques for improving yours.

Speaker 1:
[00:34] Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. We are back today with a fan favorite series, Am I the Asshole?

Speaker 2:
[00:58] Also a personal favorite. I love these episodes.

Speaker 1:
[01:00] I do too. So we cannot take credit for this. This is a Reddit creation. There's a whole Reddit sub thread. So if you love this episode, you can go on over there afterwards. But there's a whole sub thread all about this where people write in, then they say, here's the situation that I am in. It's leaving me wondering, am I the asshole in this situation? Like am I in the wrong? Or is the other person in the wrong? Is the other person the asshole?

Speaker 2:
[01:26] A-I-T-A. Am I the asshole? Though I will say on Reddit, you're not gonna get as detailed of considerations as we go into on this.

Speaker 1:
[01:35] Yeah, we like to go deep on all these.

Speaker 2:
[01:36] You're gonna get a comment thread of a lot of people weighing in, but not the level of detail that we can give in a podcast episode.

Speaker 1:
[01:44] Sure. So yeah, we love these because we hear the most interesting stories from people in our community. I think they're just like fun to listen to. They're also great to weigh in on. So this is a great episode to introduce your partner to Pillow Talks or to our work, because it's not, you know, it's not like, hey, babe, I need you to listen to this how to get your partner to be better at foreplay episode. It's like you get to talk about other people's relationships kind of weigh in on we have whose side are you on? What advice would you give to this person?

Speaker 2:
[02:15] How would you handle this in our relationship?

Speaker 1:
[02:17] Yeah, so it's a great one to like listen to us read the story, pause it, the two of you talk about who you think is the asshole in this situation, and then come back and listen to what we said and see like, did you agree with us? Did you disagree with us? Did you think of something that we didn't? I just think they're super fun. And we like getting these stories. But before we get into the stories, I realized there's something that we haven't talked to you about in a long time. We wanted to ask you a very small favor. This will take 30 seconds of your time, but honestly, it makes such a big difference. Could you please subscribe to Pillow Talks? And if you typically listen to us on Apple Podcasts, leave a quick review for the podcast.

Speaker 2:
[02:56] Or just a rating on any other platform.

Speaker 1:
[02:57] Yeah, a rating, a review.

Speaker 2:
[02:59] Any of it helps.

Speaker 1:
[03:00] It really, truly helps. I never knew about this until I started a podcast myself. But when you subscribe to the podcast, it makes such a big difference. I know it doesn't seem like that big of a deal. You're like, I'm literally just tapping one tiny button on the screen. What difference could that make? But it truly does. And the ratings and reviews are really huge, too, because people use those when deciding whether or not, when they're looking for a new podcast and they're deciding, do I want to listen to this one or not? We have great ratings, fortunately. We're so grateful for that.

Speaker 2:
[03:29] Yeah, we want to keep it that way. So help us. Help us keep it that way, please.

Speaker 1:
[03:33] So we would really, really appreciate. Hit that subscribe button. Leave us a quick review.

Speaker 2:
[03:38] Smash those five stars.

Speaker 1:
[03:39] Yeah, please. Please leave us a five star rating. That would be great. It really helps us keep the show going and helps us be able to reach more couples, be able to serve more people. And we really want to keep the show going as long as as long as we can. It is I will just be honest, like it is an expensive endeavor between all the equipment and all the time it takes to produce each episode, all the different team members that are involved helping us work on this. It takes a lot and this is not a money maker for us. It truly is not. So little things like that. It's fun, but there are some days where I'm like, oh my God, the amount of effort that goes into this podcast for us to essentially not make it very much at all is a little sad. So we would really appreciate your support. Just being totally, totally transparent there. Okay, let's get into it. Here is our first one. Am I the asshole for being upset that my wife discussed our sex life with her sisters, mom and friends for years without my knowledge, even though she only said positive things? Okay, this is a long one, so buckle up. Her sisters have always had an unusual nickname for me. I could never figure out where it came from, and when I asked them, they would always claim it was a silly nickname that they happened to think of and it had no real meaning. Their explanation never made any sense to me, but they can be kind of quirky like that, so I never gave it much thought.

Speaker 2:
[05:01] I think I see where this one is going. At first, at the very beginning, it was like, okay, they only said positive things about you, like how bad can it really be? But if this nickname came from some kind of very personal thing, then I could start to see how you might have a bone pick.

Speaker 1:
[05:18] In general, there's been a lot of innuendo directed at me over the years by both her sister's friends and even on occasion her mother. A lot of it seems strange when it was said, but it did not come across as innuendo at the time, but now I realized they were having a laugh at inside jokes they were making based on comments my wife had made to them over the years since we started dating, about my size and our sex life. In the past, I always assumed they had an unusual sense of humor because most of what they said never made any sense in the context of what we were doing, but it meant no harm. I don't know if I would have ever figured it out if my wife had not left her messenger up so that when I went to use her computer, I saw a conversation they were having about the sex we had the previous night. When I called my wife on it, she initially tried to play it off as a one-time thing, but I knew based on some of the details of the message, there was no way they would know so much unless she had been sharing with them consistently. She finally came around to admitting that she discusses our sex life with these people, but she denied there was anything wrong with it because she only ever says positive things about me and all of her friends and sisters are jealous because of what she has told them. As evidence, she claims, by the jokes I hear which relate to their conversations. She also told me this is normal and she assumed I knew this is how most women are which I don't believe. I'm really upset over this because now that I know these people know intimate details about me, I can't imagine how I can be around them without constantly thinking about it and being embarrassed. I told her I think at the least she owes me an apology, but she said I'm making too much of this and I'm being an asshole by blowing it out of proportion and for snooping on her computer. He put that in little quotes. Even though I asked her if I could use it first when it opened, it was already on the messenger screen with that conversation open where I could see. Am I the asshole?

Speaker 2:
[07:02] This is a juicy one. I almost stopped. I tried to abort saying juicy because I know you hate that word, but this is a this is a juicy one. I had a lot of back and forths on this one. I think this guy is allowed to have some feelings about this. There are some things where I think that where he's like, I don't know how he could ever be around these people again because I'm going to be embarrassed. I think there's some amount of internalized shame around sex that maybe he could work on himself, especially if the stuff that they're talking about is generally positive. It sounds like this guy might be packing some heat and maybe they have some wild sex. It sounds like there's some ways in which he is embarrassed of that or doesn't really feel comfortable just owning his sexuality and his sex life with his wife, which I think is sad. I hope that this guy can get to the point of being like, yeah, we have great sex and I'm proud of that. But ultimately, I do think that she is mostly the asshole in this situation. It's not cool for her to tell him that he's not allowed to feel that way and be like, you're blowing this out of proportion. It's not a big deal. I do think it's normal to... I expect that you are going to mention bits and pieces of our sex life to your friends. I assume that that is going to happen. I trust that you have discretion around what is and what isn't appropriate to share. I think that where this might have gone off the rails is they're all calling him nicknames, like quasi-sexualized nicknames, maybe. That's where it starts to feel a little inappropriate to me. I would probably be like, I feel a bit uncomfortable that for years and years and years, you guys have been making inside jokes about me to my face without me realizing it.

Speaker 1:
[09:06] Yeah, I think there's a lot of nuance and layers here. Like I do think that it is okay for people to talk about their sex life with their closest loved ones. Like we should be able to talk to our closest people about what's really going on in our lives, like, and be open and honest. And I think especially with something like sex, where we all have gotten this socialization that we're not supposed to talk about it out loud. Like it's very healing and very powerful to be able to talk about it out loud with your people. That being said, I also completely understand that it's really sensitive on the other end of it to know that your partner is sharing intimate details. Because it's like someone's sex life, it's not, it doesn't just belong to them. It's not just like me confessing to my friends, like, hey, I made this big mistake at work, right? Like it's sharing something very personal about you. And so I understand, you know, as the partner that feels so sensitive to know that your partner is sharing things. So it's, it's not easy at all. And I think that couples have to talk with each other about, like, what are the, you know, what boundaries do we feel comfortable talking about here? I do think stuff like, like anatomy, that feels like it's crossing the line to me.

Speaker 2:
[10:25] Like a little, it's a little too personal.

Speaker 1:
[10:27] Yeah, like I don't want your friends knowing intimate details of what my genitals look like, you know? Like, I see this sense, even though, like, even though everybody's like, oh, well, he's, you know, he's big, it's not a big deal. Like, that's still a very intimate detail for somebody to know about you. And I understand people not wanting other people to know that.

Speaker 2:
[10:45] What if, what if you're like, what if you're like on a girls trip or something and you're with a bunch of your girlfriends and they're all talking about, like, their partner's penis size? Like, would you just be like, no, I don't feel comfortable sharing about that? Or would you just be like, oh, like, I'm totally satisfied. Like, would that be an acceptable thing?

Speaker 1:
[11:05] Okay, personally, I would, at this point now, I would not share any details about your penis. But the funny thing is, like, when we first started dating and like when I first saw your penis, like, I for sure told my friends at the time, you know? I think that it's kind of funny, like, we share, when you're not sure what your, you know, future's gonna be with someone. Yeah, you're like, oh, he did this and he did this and he looked like that, but then, like, as you get into the relationship and you realize, like, oh, no, this person's, like, sticking around, we're gonna, like, be together for a while, then it's like, oh, shit, I kind of wish my didn't share, like, all those details. And yeah, now at this point, like, I'm not gonna tell anybody what your dick looks like. Like, it just doesn't, it doesn't feel appropriate. So I get, yeah, I get that sensitivity here. What, I think what upsets me about this is that there's a lot of teasing going on at his expense without him knowing. So it's one thing to talk to your friends and confide in them and say, like, hey, I'm struggling in our, in our sex life. Like, we're not having sex very often, or I'm feeling so self-conscious about my body, I can't, like, focus and be present in the moment, or like, how do you guys make the space for sex when we're so busy and we have so many things on our plates? Like, those kinds of conversations feel really different to me than potentially what's going on here, that they're just, like, making fun of him. And again, even though it's positive, like, I don't know, he can go all night and he's hung like a horse or whatever, like, it's still, it feels mean-spirited, even though it's positive things, because, like, they're clearly getting off at joking about him without him knowing. Like, why else would they be saying they're like, oh, the, you know, Black Stallion or whatever, you know, dumb nickname it is? Like, why would they keep saying that in front of him and him being like, oh, ha ha, these, like, quirky girls, I don't get it.

Speaker 2:
[13:00] This feels very, like, a middle school kind of thing where people start calling you a nickname and you're like, oh, I have a nickname, isn't that cool? And then, like, a year later, you realize that it was, like, some actual mean-spirited joke. Like, this sounds very much like that.

Speaker 1:
[13:15] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[13:16] So, I would, yeah, I think for, I think that maybe where things might have gone a little off the rails is he may have said to her, hey, I just found all this out. I don't feel right about this. In fact, I and then and then I think he went overboard. Like he had a he had an opportunity to be like, hey, this feels inappropriate. And it hurts to know that people have been having a joke at my expense for all these years and call me this nickname. I didn't know what it meant. And now I'm like retracing the timeline and understanding that all these things were actually inside jokes at my expense. That doesn't feel good. That would have been very appropriate. Where I worry that he might have gone into the blowing it out of proportion territory where she then jumped on that is then he goes, I don't know how I can ever see any of these people again, because I'm like ashamed or whatever.

Speaker 1:
[14:12] I don't think he said it that extreme.

Speaker 2:
[14:14] No, probably not.

Speaker 1:
[14:15] He said, I can't imagine how I can be around them without thinking constantly about it and being embarrassed.

Speaker 2:
[14:22] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[14:23] I think that's understandable.

Speaker 2:
[14:24] Yeah, that's fair. I mean, I think that probably the simple way to solve this problem, it's not simple, but I mean, is like, I think that his wife needs to have a conversation with her family and our friends who use these nicknames and be like, hey, my husband found out about this, he's really upset. I'm looking back on that and I realized it wasn't very appropriate of us to be having all these inside jokes at his expense over all the years. It would mean a lot. Not even it would mean a lot. I want you, I'm going to stop calling him those nicknames. I need all of you to stop calling him those nicknames. I don't know if it would necessarily be appropriate of her to be like, it would be great if you could ignore or maybe like apologize to him. I feel like some of her friends might at that point, next time they see him, just be like, hey, I'm sorry for those nicknames. I'm not going to call you that again. That might be healing. But yeah, I mean, I think that if she could have just been like, yeah, you know what, you're right. That's not appropriate. Rather than doubling down, oh no, I should be able to say whatever I want and we should be able to make all the fun of you that we want behind your back and in front of you. Yeah, that doesn't feel right to me.

Speaker 1:
[15:38] Yeah. And I just really, I really don't like the wife's response to this either. Like it feels mean-spirited. It feels gaslighty. Like he's saying, like, I would like at least an apology. But then for her to say, like, you're making too much of this.

Speaker 2:
[15:51] Yeah. And you snooped.

Speaker 1:
[15:53] Yeah. I mean, you know, who knows? They snooped. But yeah, I, yeah, I just think, like, even if she thought it was normal and everybody does it, just the fact that he's saying, hey, this upsets me and hurts my feelings, that's enough to warrant an apology. Yeah. But you and I, I think, have a really different view on apologies than most people do, which is just like, just fucking say you're sorry. Like saying sorry doesn't mean you're a terrible person. You were completely in the wrong. The other person's completely right. Like, we both just apologize to each other all the time.

Speaker 2:
[16:30] It means that you care that the other person is feeling hurt.

Speaker 1:
[16:33] I'm sorry doesn't mean like I'm responsible or I'm bad necessarily. It just means like, yeah, like we say very often, I'm sorry for my part in that.

Speaker 2:
[16:41] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, she could say is, I was operating under the assumption that this was a normal thing to do. And I hear you, now that you know that this has been happening, you don't feel like this was a normal or appropriate thing to do.

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
[18:18] It's important to me because we're married that we are, you know, respecting each other's boundaries or respecting each other's feelings. Now that I know that I will not be doing that again. I'm sorry, you know, for what happened that was hurtful to you.

Speaker 1:
[18:32] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[18:33] I think that that's a very fair way of doing it where you're not being like, I'm a horrible, horrible, horrible person that's always in the wrong because I did this for years. I mean, it's okay to acknowledge. I didn't realize that this was a problem. And now that I know that it's a problem for you, that's a problem for me.

Speaker 1:
[18:48] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[18:48] It's really that simple. But I think just ultimately, it's an interesting thing talking about your sex life specifically. To compare it to talking about your relationship, it doesn't seem reasonable to be like, you can never talk to any of your friends about our marriage.

Speaker 1:
[19:05] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[19:06] I think we often actually look at that as a red flag for abusive relationships. That is kind of the hallmark of an abusive relationship where it's like, hey, nobody gets to know about us. What we have is special and it's just for us and nobody else gets to know. That is such the hallmark of a red flag, abusive type of relationship because things can go so wrong in that context. But I think when it comes to talking about your relationship, part of being in a relationship in a marriage is trusting our partner's discretion. I want Vanessa to be able to talk to her friends about what's going on for her. I also trust that she is going to share an appropriate amount, something where I'm not going to be feeling like, God, I'm just going to be judged by all of her friends or all of her family now. I trust that if there's something where she wants to be able to talk to somebody about it, and she's not sure that she's going to talk to me about that. I think part of getting into a relationship is figuring out with each other what your different tolerances are for that type of stuff. But I do think that most people would agree when it comes to just talking about your marriage relationship, it is generally okay to talk in generalities to other people about things that are going on. But there is a gray line at a certain point of where it becomes inappropriate and that's what we have to figure out. I think the same is true with our sex lives. It doesn't feel okay to just be like, no, you can never share any detail about sex because sex is just like a marriage. It's a really important part of it. I think it's okay to be like, yeah, hey, I'm happy with my sex life or things are really good or, hey, I'm trying to make more time so that we can have a more fulfilling sex life.

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
[24:03] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[24:04] I feel like I could just keep talking about this one, but we have so many other good ones that I want us to keep going through.

Speaker 2:
[24:09] Yeah, let's go. All right. My the asshole for not wanting to bring something into my relationship that reminds my partner of his ex. My partner has incredible memories with a chihuahua him and his ex had. He wants us to get one. Well, this is just took such a different turn. I was thinking this is going to be something sexual or-

Speaker 1:
[24:29] No, we're talking about chihuahuas.

Speaker 2:
[24:32] Yeah. Okay. He wants us to get one, but I say no because one, I don't particularly like tiny dogs, and more importantly, two, I don't want to bring something into our life that will invite comparison to his relationship and something he loved with his ex. All right, Vanessa, pop off. Dog lover, pop off.

Speaker 1:
[24:52] Okay. I want to start with the piece about, I don't like tiny dogs. That's fine.

Speaker 2:
[24:58] Fair.

Speaker 1:
[24:59] If you don't like tiny dogs, I just don't like you, but just kidding. If you don't like tiny dogs, you should not get a chihuahua. In general, you should not get a chihuahua dog that you don't want. Dogs, we are huge dog people over here. Dogs deserve to be loved. They deserve to be wanted. So if you don't want one, don't get one.

Speaker 2:
[25:18] Yeah, especially, and chihuahuas are a vibe. Not only are they a tiny dog, they have a very distinct personality amongst the tiny dog personalities that is very not big dog. Like, almost not very dog-like in a way. Like, you got to really be an... I think chihuahuas are hilarious. And I know a lot of people that love them, but they will all tell you, being a chihuahua person is a very specific thing. Like, you got to know, love, and respect.

Speaker 1:
[25:51] Every breed, like being a fill-in-the-blank person is a specific thing. Okay, so what I want to do, though, is I want to pick that piece out of it and lift it right out and put it aside. So we're going to ignore that. We're going to pretend now that you like chihuahuas, you want to get one, but you are worried about your ex having a chihuahua. Let's replace it with a big dog, a lab. Let's say it's a lab.

Speaker 2:
[26:16] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[26:16] Your ex had a lab. Sorry, your boyfriend had a lab with his ex. You are being the asshole in this situation.

Speaker 2:
[26:25] Yeah, this is so unreasonable.

Speaker 1:
[26:28] To say, I don't want to bring something in to my life that will invite comparison to his relationship. You know what you're bringing? The person who was in that relationship with his ex is in your relationship. That just inherently, there is a comparison there. But I think that this question is coming from a place of really deep insecurity. Like the bottom line is we all have pasts. Most of us have exes. And it's okay to feel some feelings about that. But the bottom line is we have to get over it. The idea of just actively worrying about potential comparisons to an ex, you're going to drive yourself crazy. What? The ex also breathed. Are you not allowed to breathe? The ex might have worn clothing. Now I don't want to wear clothing that couldn't invite comparison.

Speaker 2:
[27:23] I mean, God, they used to go out to dinner at restaurants a lot. They used to go on dates a lot at restaurants. We couldn't possibly go to restaurants and have dates. God, he's going to be thinking about the ex that he went on dates with.

Speaker 1:
[27:36] Yeah. No, you got to get over this.

Speaker 2:
[27:39] Especially if you want all this to work long term. I mean, you guys want to get a dog together. So I sure hope that you're thinking about the long term. Bring a dog into your family. Yeah, I mean, if you want this to work in the short term thing, there's maybe some jealousy or whatever. But if you want something to work long term, you are getting this person in your life, and that includes their past and their history. Now, if your ex, if not if your ex, if your boyfriend is constantly, I would get it if your boyfriend is constantly talking about, oh, it was so great, my ex had this chihuahua, and it would be so great if we had one, so it could be just like that. I do.

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Speaker 2:
[29:49] Doubt he's saying that because I assumed that you would have written that in here. This guy cannot shut up about it. If that's the case, and it's like, hey, it feels like this might be more about recapturing something that you had with someone else, and that is valid. But if he's just like, I love chihuahuas. In fact, I did happen to have one. The reason I love chihuahuas is because I did happen to have one in the past, which is pretty reasonable to be like, I had a certain kind of dog. Now, I like that kind of dog.

Speaker 1:
[30:18] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[30:19] But if so, if that's all it is, then you are definitely the asshole.

Speaker 1:
[30:23] Okay. Let's move on to the next one. Am I the asshole for having sex with my fiance in our apartment? I live on a second floor of an apartment complex with my fiance. My neighbor below us, when we moved in, we offered our cell number to them several times in case we were ever too loud so they could pick us up and ask us to be quieter. They declined each time. Now, the rules of the apartment are quiet hours are between 9 p.m. and 7 a.m. After a week, the neighbor tells us we walk too loud and we need to stop at 8 p.m. That's an hour before quiet hours because that's when he goes to bed for the night. So we did our best to adjust for him.

Speaker 2:
[31:02] That's very nice to do and unnecessary. It's truly nice.

Speaker 1:
[31:06] Then yesterday, about 5 p.m., my fiance and I were going at it and our neighbor below us bangs on his ceiling slash our floor mid-fuck, which killed my significant other's mood. So we stopped. Then about five minutes later, this dude bangs on our door and yells at us that he doesn't want to hear us fucking and threatens to call the cops or apartment management if he ever hears us again. So am I the asshole here for getting down or is he the asshole for losing his shit and demanding us change our lives for him?

Speaker 2:
[31:35] Please call the cops.

Speaker 1:
[31:36] He's the asshole. Very, very clearly and definitively, he's the asshole.

Speaker 2:
[31:41] Yeah. I mean, I don't know you can say what kind of sex you're having, but if it's just normal sex, I mean, even if it's loud sex.

Speaker 1:
[31:51] I think this is a really interesting question. If you live in a space, whether it's an apartment complex or with roommates, where others could hear you, are you obligated to be quiet when you have sex?

Speaker 2:
[32:04] What do we mean by obligated? Are you obligated so that you ensure that no one ever, ever, ever hears you? Are you obligated to be respectfully quiet? Because I think the reality is everybody in relationships has sex. Sex is something that happens. We can't expect it to not happen. I think there's two elements of it. There's what is your personal tolerance for other people hearing you? People are going to have wildly different opinions on that. Some people are going to be like, I could give two shits if other people hear me. In fact, maybe I even enjoy the fact that people are hearing me a little bit. Or you might be like, oh, my God, I feel like a pit in my stomach when I even think of that. That is that feels horrible to me. I would not want to do that. So, you know, there's sort of those two. If you're more in the camp of like, I don't want other people to hear me, then in a shared space, you may be stuck with having pretty quiet, maybe kind of boring, slow sex because you can't make any noise or you got to get creative in terms of being able to find ways to have more vigorous sex that where, you know, the bed's not slamming against the wall or whatever.

Speaker 1:
[33:16] Yeah. I think I have a way to evaluate this. I don't think that you have to be silent. Like the reality is when you choose to live with roommates, and you choose to live in apartment complex or in houses that are close to each other, like you have to be conscious of the fact that you're gonna hear noise. Like life just makes noise. People can't be, like if it is important to you to have zero sound around you, to never hear people around you, then it's your responsibility to move out to the country where you can't even see any neighbors, right? So I don't think we can have an expectation of absolute silence when we are choosing to live in spaces that are close to other people. That being said though, I do think it's generally a kind, gracious idea to not have super loud sex when you, like you're also choosing to live near other people and there needs to be some amount of consideration for like, hey, there's shared space, we're sharing, we're able to hear each other's lives. So like, let's try to be thoughtful. So in the same way that you wouldn't be like, screaming at the top of your lungs or like playing music really loud, like I don't think you should have like screaming, slamming the bed frame against the wall kind of sex. I think you can moan, you can talk to each other, you can have some ass slapping sounds, like in general I would say you have to be thoughtful about not being too loud.

Speaker 2:
[34:55] Unless you have a really high tolerance for getting into arguments with neighbors, possibly having the apartment manager starting to hear about your sex life and maybe starting to have a conversation with you about it. Like we know people from back in the day of apartment living, we have a certain level of respect for neighbors and we had some neighbors in the past that didn't always have the same level of respect.

Speaker 1:
[35:20] They sure did not.

Speaker 2:
[35:21] Everyone has different levels of how much they feel is appropriate. So I think it's more of it's just trade-offs. Like we had a neighbor once that didn't really care that much. And so that neighbor had to deal with getting a lot of texts from us, a lot of requests and having to field those all the time. So it's more of like, yeah, what are you willing to put up with? But yeah, for you, it's like it sounds like you're kind of concerned with, oh God, I don't want him to call the cops or, oh God, I don't want him to talk to the apartment manager. That being said, I'm pretty sure that your apartment manager is not going to kick you out of an apartment for having sex at 5 p.m. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[36:02] Also, you're obeying, this person's obeying quiet hours.

Speaker 2:
[36:05] And in fact, this person has asked you, made an inappropriate request of you to not walk around between the hours of 8 and 9 p.m. because they go to bed. It sounds like you didn't even request that. He just told you, you need to do this. Yeah, you need to stop at 8 p.m. Because my bedtime, so it sounds like this is a kind of unreasonable person. I would say that he is mostly the asshole unless you guys were just having like screaming loud sex.

Speaker 1:
[36:32] So I would probably just like preemptively go to the apartment manager and say like this person's a little off his rocker.

Speaker 2:
[36:38] Yeah, I wouldn't necessarily tell him about the sex. I would just say that this neighbor has been making a number of unreasonable requests of us around noise. We're really committed. I mean, I would totally preempt that. We're super committed to these quiet hours. And we believe that we are really following them. That's important to us because we also want it to be quiet.

Speaker 1:
[36:59] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[37:00] Between those hours, we're getting a number of unreasonable requests and also banging on the ceiling. The apartment manager is going to want to know about that because he also doesn't want the ceiling to get damaged in that downstairs unit. Like I'm getting it. I'm not sure how to handle this with our neighbor. That is the apartment manager's job to handle disputes. So I would get ahead of that and just be like, you know, that apartment manager will probably get on your side pretty quick if they're like, hey, these people are really reasonable. They're trying to follow the rules and they're getting put in an awkward situation where, you know, they're getting yelled at by this guy.

Speaker 1:
[37:37] Yeah. OK, this one is really similar, but I think it's interesting. I'm going to read it quickly and I'm curious to hear your take on it. Am I the asshole for telling our roommate she might need to move out if she keeps complaining about hearing us at night? My boyfriend and I let a friend he's known since childhood stay at our place because housing is expensive and her university is nearby. She stays here five days a week and goes home on weekends. We don't charge her rent, we pay for utilities and groceries while she's here. That's insane. It's one thing to not charge someone to rent, but to also like pay for their groceries. What? You guys are too nice. She has her own bathroom and full access to basically everything, things like kitchen, pool, sauna, etc. Her bedroom is not next to ours. Between our bedroom and her space is a computer slash working room, and her bathroom is also in between, so there's some separation. A few months ago, she told us she could hear us being intimate at night, and it made her uncomfortable. We said we'd try to be quieter when she's around. Since then, she has brought it up multiple times. After the last complaint, I told her calmly but firmly that we've adjusted as much as we think is fair. I said if this will keep being an issue, maybe this living situation just isn't a good fit, and she might need to find another place to stay. She thinks I'm being unfair. Am I the asshole? No, she's being an asshole.

Speaker 2:
[38:53] Very, very entitled.

Speaker 1:
[38:55] And free groceries and all she has to do is just listen to a little moaning at night.

Speaker 2:
[38:59] And honestly, she probably like if you're doing it right with all the closed doors or whatever, like I don't think she can't. It sounds like she's creeping on like what you described about the house layout is true. Like she shouldn't really be able to hear you anyway.

Speaker 1:
[39:16] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[39:19] Kayak gets my flight, hotel, and rental car right. So I can tune out travel advice that's just plain wrong. Bro, Skycoin, way better than points. Never fly during a Scorpio full moon. Just tell the manager you'll sue. Instant room upgrade.

Speaker 1:
[39:35] Stop taking bad travel advice.

Speaker 2:
[39:37] Start comparing hundreds of sites with Kayak and get your trip right. Kayak, got that right. It seems like she kind of wants to, like, she, it's, it seems like this seems like someone who's super entitled. And there are people like this that kind of just like to keep like pushing and pushing and pushing to see what they can get. It sounds like one of those people, unfortunately.

Speaker 1:
[40:00] Yeah, this one was a very, very crystal clear, she's the asshole. Yeah, like, I think even in this situation, I think you're allowed to have some like screaming sex.

Speaker 2:
[40:11] Yeah, I mean, it's your house, you invited someone to stay there, they don't have to be there.

Speaker 1:
[40:14] You're doing her a favor, it's free, she gets utilities and groceries paid. Like, this is crazy. You're you're being way too nice to her. I think that she could tolerate hearing some loud sex for free rent and groceries.

Speaker 2:
[40:28] Oh, I can't believe this one got left for me to read.

Speaker 1:
[40:31] OK, no, I don't think that you are the asshole. I think it is a perfectly fine, reasonable request to ask your partner to put in a little effort into their initiations. You know, we talk about initiation a lot on this podcast and the fact that it is very vulnerable to initiate sex and in most relationships is typically one person who's doing most, if not all of the initiating. And because of all that vulnerability, it's very easy, and especially for men, it's very easy for men to go to this place where they do joking initiations. Because if they are just joking about it and you're like, oh, read the room, I don't want to, then they can have plausible deniability. They can say, oh, I wasn't actually initiating, I was just joking. They can pretend like they weren't actually trying to do it.

Speaker 2:
[41:22] Or like, oh, never mind, and then try to make you feel that.

Speaker 1:
[41:25] So the way that this question is worded really makes me wonder if that might be happening in this relationship. Like, be nice if you hopped on. Like, it's a dumb way of initiating, it's a bad joke, depending on the tone. Obviously, we have no clue what the tone was, but it could be like there's a lot of resentment behind it. Like, sure would be nice if you would hop on for once.

Speaker 2:
[41:49] Oh yeah, I didn't even think of that.

Speaker 1:
[41:51] You know?

Speaker 2:
[41:51] Yeah, depending on how you said it.

Speaker 1:
[41:53] I could be totally wrong because we have zero clue what the tone is here, but it makes me wonder about that. So, you know, I would, if I were in your shoes, I would go to your partner and like have an open conversation about initiation. We have other podcast episodes about it, so maybe like listen to one together, have it like, you know, the two of you end up talking about it. But in general, what we tend to recommend for people is like, give your partner specific examples of ways that you would love for them to initiate. Like we have to set each other up for success in relationships. Your partner can't read your mind, they don't know exactly how you want to initiate, they're feeling vulnerable, they're feeling like they're putting themselves out there, so they're much likely to do something that feels like it kind of can protect themselves. But if you set them up for success, tell them, here's how I would like you to initiate, this would be really fun to me, this would be exciting to me, rather than like, I can't believe you're initiating like that, or, don't do that. Like that just shuts your partner down even more. So give them specific ideas of ways that you would like for them to initiate. But in general, the question of like, is, am I an asshole for wanting my partner to put more effort into initiation? Absolutely not. We should all be putting effort into initiation. It's just that in most relationships, it's gotten pretty complicated.

Speaker 2:
[43:14] I have a kind of hot take on this one.

Speaker 1:
[43:17] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[43:17] I think that, I don't think it's, I don't think it's a great idea to say, you got to put some effort in before asking for sex. Now, I think that there's a different way to express this to her partner that will be a lot more effective. But I worry that if she's put this in the terms of, bro, you got to work harder before asking for sex. What he might be hearing is, oh, I need to, it's like a transactional thing, like, oh, I need to do more for you in order to get sex from you. And I think that a lot of guys will react really poorly to that because they're like, hey, that's not what I'm in. Like, that's not what I'm here for. That's not what I signed up for in this relationship. Like, I don't want this to be, oh, sex is a thing that I want, I need that you don't want, but you give to me when I'm a good boy. And I think that that vibe starts to develop in a lot of long-term relationships and marriages, and I think that's super unhealthy. And that's just a wedge that is going to drive you apart and will lead to divorce. Now, I think that this woman can get literally everything out of this that she wants just by flipping it a little bit. Instead of it being like, you need to put effort in, it's like, hey, I'm realizing I don't respond super well to certain types of initiation. Can we talk about how you could initiate sex with me in a way that would be really exciting to me? So that you're making it a you problem, not a them problem. Hey, you gotta put in more work. Or hey, you know what? I'm realizing I'm not enjoying this kind of initiation. You're taking responsibility for, this is not a type of initiation that works for me. Now, let's talk about what types of initiation could work for me. So that you're giving your partner the tools to do a good job, rather than just being like, I want to see you put some effort in. I think that's a vague request, and I think a lot of men hear like, hey, I want you to put more effort in being romantic, or I want to see you put more effort in here or there. And I think that a lot of guys react really poorly to that, because it's not direct communication, because I don't know what that means when you say put more effort in. I think that guys respond really well to clear, direct feedback, especially if it's like, hey, here's something that I want, or here's something that I need, and here's exactly what you need to do in order to get me that. So I think that this partner, the woman here, could actually put a little work in to thinking about how might she enjoy initiation. What would she like that to look like? But the realities are so many options on the table, and you got to take some responsibility for knowing what it is that you want. Or at least if you don't know, say, hey, let's try some other stuff, here's some ideas for other ways that this could look. Or take our Art of Initiation course because we lay all of those out there.

Speaker 1:
[46:25] Yeah, we do. We can link to that in the show notes.

Speaker 2:
[46:28] So yeah, bottom line, you are not the asshole, but I do think that you could rephrase your request to your partner in a way that I think would be a lot better for you and a hell of a lot better for him.

Speaker 1:
[46:41] Yeah. Okay, here is our next one. Am I the asshole for waking my boyfriend up for snoring?

Speaker 2:
[46:48] Huh. This happens in our household sometimes.

Speaker 1:
[46:53] It happened in a while, thankfully, after all the mouthwork that you've been doing. We're heading in the right direction. My boyfriend is a really heavy snorer. He always has been. If he falls asleep first, it takes me hours to fall asleep and it's literally driving me insane. For the first year or so of our relationship, I used to just suck it up and deal with it, but it's getting to the point now where it's every single night, it's really affecting my sleep and my life. When it gets to that point in the night, I'll politely ask, can you turn over? Because if he's facing away from me, I can't hear it as much. If that doesn't work, I'll give him a light nudge or an elbow and I'll wake him up to stop snoring because I can't sleep. Sometimes he gets really angry at me for waking him up because he has to work in the morning. And he tells me, if you wake me up again, I'm going to sleep on the couch and I'm taking the quilt. Oh, not the quilt.

Speaker 2:
[47:38] Not the quilt.

Speaker 1:
[47:40] I feel bad because I know he isn't consciously doing it and he can't help it, but it literally makes me so mad when I'm getting no sleep and it's affecting me the next day. I'm someone who really can't function on low sleep. Was this written by me? Okay. I have mesophon- oh, I don't have this. I have mesophonia too, so even the sound of breathing makes me really uncomfortable. So you can imagine how heavy snoring makes me feel. FYI, we live in a one-bedroom apartment, so we don't have a spare bedroom, but I have done things to try and make it work. I've slept on the couch multiple times. I always put the TV on when I'm trying to sleep to try to cancel out the noise, but he tells me to turn it down. I've tried earplugs, but then I don't wake up to my alarms in the morning. Nose strips will not help him as he snores through his mouth. I know that you're going to have something to say about this. He snores no matter what position he's in. I've told him he could go see a doctor about it, but he doesn't seem interested in doing that. I just don't know what else to do. Am I the asshole?

Speaker 2:
[48:36] Well, I mean, do we want to get into solutions here? Or do we want to talk about who the asshole is?

Speaker 1:
[48:43] Let's start first with who the asshole is.

Speaker 2:
[48:44] All right. I do not think you, she is not the asshole at all in this situation.

Speaker 1:
[48:50] We don't know the gender of this person.

Speaker 2:
[48:52] The person writing, they are not the asshole at all. Ultimately, when you are in a relationship with someone and you are cohabitating together, you both deserve to be comfortable in your sleeping arrangement. Just because you're in a relationship doesn't mean you have to just put up with the sleeping situation if it's really bad for you, especially you're getting to the point where it's like, your sleep is really significantly impacted. You're not sleeping well every single night. That is not a tenable long-term solution. So I think that you absolutely deserve to say, hey, this is getting to the point where it is not acceptable to me. I need to be able to get better sleep. So I want to be able to talk about solutions here. It's not like, I know that I've suggested things about you, maybe seeing a doctor or whatever. Of course, that's always an option. I don't want to force you to do anything, but I need us to be able to talk about options that aren't just like, you either do that or nothing happens. So do we need to get a two-bedroom apartment? What would it look like if one of us slept on the couch every single night? I mean, I think it's like, you need to put it in the context of like, your partner says, hey, I have work in the morning. It's important for me to get good sleep. I'm pretty sure at the end of the day, they would agree that you also deserve to get good sleep just as much as they do. And ultimately, you would probably want to find out if your partner is like, yeah, no, I don't think you deserve to sleep very well. I don't think that your rest is as important as mine. Like, that might be an important point of view that you might not want to find out about, but it might benefit you to know sooner rather than later if that's how your partner truly feels about you. I think this is a real, like, what's like an inflection moment in your relationship where you have an opportunity to see, to kind of see behind the curtain with your partner, like, how much do they really care about you? Are they willing to talk solutions or maybe do something uncomfortable? Yeah, because also the reality to this guy, there are solutions. They will require seeing a doctor or many doctors. But there are solutions to snoring. There are, you know, beyond just like a CPAP machine, there are there. I mean, I've gone through some of them. There are surgical solutions. It's a whole thing that can be expensive and time consuming. But also, man, I did not realize how poor of sleep quality I was getting when I was snoring a lot and you don't realize because that's just what your everyday reality is. And once I actually had some procedures and started to see more success, it's like, oh, holy shit, like I sleep so much better. I dream. I feel more rested. I don't wake up feeling groggy anymore. I have so much more energy. Like there are some real good positive outcomes to solving this, whether it's CPAP or whether it's something else.

Speaker 1:
[52:04] Yeah, I'm in agreement with you. I think that this person sounds like they've already like bent so much trying to accommodate this. Like they've tried a bunch of different things. I think their expectations are like really reasonable. It's not fair for the partner just to be like, well, you suck it up. And like, yeah, he's not doing it on purpose. Of course not. But still, even though it's not on purpose, it's still having a big impact. And it worries me that he doesn't seem to care very much about that impact. He's just like, well, whatever. And it worries me that he doesn't seem willing to do anything to address it either.

Speaker 2:
[52:44] Yeah. I mean, I think that the one thing I can think of that the person writing in probably feels like they're trapped a little bit. Like they've kind of walked themselves into a corner by bending over backwards for so long about it. By not advocating for themselves from earlier on, because they might feel like, oh, well, now it's going to now I'm going to seem really unreasonable. Like it's been years now. All of a sudden, I'm like, no, this is it like. But so I think that there's there's an opportunity actually to take some responsibility for that. Hey, I have been I've been thinking about this a lot. And it's on me that I haven't clearly stated for a very long time how serious this is for me. So it's I'm not just saying that you're a horrible person because I'm not sleeping well. There's I bear a lot of responsibility for this for not speaking up enough, for not advocating for myself, for allowing myself to get into this situation. That being said, this is the situation that I'm in. And it doesn't just because I allowed myself to get here, it doesn't mean that I'm just going to stay here forever. And so this is I want us to be able to talk. So here I've taken responsibility for what I didn't do in the past. But now here we are, I want to talk about the present. And my present reality is that I am not able to sleep in the way that I think I deserve to be able to. And I want us to talk about how we could address this as a team.

Speaker 1:
[54:12] Yeah, absolutely. Okay, and let's bring it on home with our last one. Am I the asshole for not being attracted to my wife's body?

Speaker 2:
[54:22] Probably.

Speaker 1:
[54:23] Should we just stop there?

Speaker 2:
[54:25] Likely.

Speaker 1:
[54:26] Oh, no, buddy. Okay.

Speaker 2:
[54:31] Why are you with your wife if you're not attracted to her?

Speaker 1:
[54:34] My wife is flat, petite and pretty short. Most of the women I've been with have been on the bigger side in the good places. And I've always been a fan of, well, a bigger chest size. This all started when me and my wife were watching Netflix a few nights ago, and she randomly asked me if I was okay with her having a flat chest. She's always been insecure about not having boobs. I asked why she was curious about this, and she told me she noticed that I had never really said anything about her chest. She said she was just curious. I told her I had to be honest and said that I'm not attracted to her chest size and that I actually prefer bigger boobs. It's not a turn off having a smaller size, and it's not a turn on. If I'm being honest, that's why I usually prefer she faces away from me during intercourse.

Speaker 2:
[55:23] Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. This does not match with you saying it's not a turn off, it's just not a turn on. That is not congruous with that is why I prefer she face away from me. So, buddy, I think you need to re-examine. I don't think that you are being truly honest, and honestly.

Speaker 1:
[55:44] Wait, hold on, let me just finish, we're not even done.

Speaker 2:
[55:46] All right, no, no, I was just gonna say honestly, when people say, I have to be honest, whatever they say after that is probably not particularly honest, and I'm pretty sure it's not given that you don't even like her facing towards you.

Speaker 1:
[55:58] She was quiet for a while and told me later that what I said hurt her. She feels like I lied to her because I never brought this up before. I told her I didn't know what to tell her and that I was just being honest. I was. Am I being the asshole here?

Speaker 2:
[56:12] Classic male, I was just being honest.

Speaker 1:
[56:14] I mean, to be fair, people of all genders pull them as just being honest.

Speaker 2:
[56:18] Yeah, I know.

Speaker 1:
[56:19] We actually that we have a whole podcast episode about that. I forgot about that. It's an older one. It's like, am I being are you being honest or are you being an asshole? Something like that.

Speaker 2:
[56:28] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[56:28] Honest or mean, something like that. This person is the asshole like you're an asshole.

Speaker 2:
[56:35] I mean, I think you got some.

Speaker 1:
[56:36] I'm just being honest.

Speaker 2:
[56:38] You're an asshole. I think you got some. You got some personal work to do. One major one is what the fuck is up with you preferring that your wife face away from you during sex? So what you're saying is what you just like doggy and reverse cowgirl on. Like, yeah, what's what?

Speaker 1:
[56:58] Spooning.

Speaker 2:
[56:58] Oh, yeah, spooning. OK. Yeah. I mean, the problem with spooning is you can kind of see over the edge a little bit on. Yeah. What's up with that? And I think you need to get real honest with yourself about what sounds a bit like a lie you're telling yourself. Oh, it's not that I'm it's not that I'm unattracted to it because when you prefer that somebody not be facing you, that kind of tells me that there is part of you or a big part of you that is actually actively turned off by it. So that would be the first thing to look into. And I mean, number two, I would also try to understand, like, why are you with someone that you are seemingly so not very attracted to that seems like this isn't a this isn't like, oh, things really changed from the time that we started being together until now. This is like this is who she's always been. It's like, yeah, what are you doing here? And what role do you have in in getting? Yeah, like, yeah, what is it that you are looking for out of this whole situation?

Speaker 1:
[58:07] Yeah, I just I almost hesitate reading this one because I don't want women to think that this is how all men think. This truly is not.

Speaker 2:
[58:15] I mean, there's I think there's plenty of women that are in also a similar situation where they're like, oh, I'm like, just not attracted to him at all. So I think let's let's be fair here. Okay, this is not just a male thing. There are plenty of women that are like, I'm not attracted to my partner. But I think that why did you do that? Why did you put yourself in this situation?

Speaker 1:
[58:34] I do think though that the vast majority of people don't see their partner as a collection of body parts. Like they see the full person. So it is totally okay for us to have physical preferences for us to say, I'm just attracted to people who are tall. I think big boobs are hot. I love a big butt. Like that's totally fine. That's a part of being human. We just have certain visual preferences and that's fine. But we need to see other people as human beings, not just specific body parts.

Speaker 2:
[59:10] Oh, I don't like that part. So I don't want to see it. Turn it away from me.

Speaker 1:
[59:14] Yeah. I mean, I'll speak for myself. I have certain things that I find attractive, but I'm not like... So maybe if I were building the perfect male body from scratch and I was completely in control of every single thing, it might look different than what you look like.

Speaker 2:
[59:34] Let's be honest. You would be six inches taller.

Speaker 1:
[59:36] Not six, like...

Speaker 2:
[59:37] Four.

Speaker 1:
[59:38] Four.

Speaker 2:
[59:39] Yeah, no. I mean, if I were doing the same, it would also look a little different, too. Like, that's fine.

Speaker 1:
[59:45] But at the end of the day, I'm not over here thinking, God, I just wish his hair was a little lighter and just four inches taller and his calves were a little thick. You know, I'm not, like...

Speaker 2:
[59:57] You're not obsessing over it.

Speaker 1:
[59:59] Yeah, I'm not obsessing over it. Like, I chose to be with you because I'm very attracted to you. And I continue to be very attracted to you. And I focus on that. I don't focus on, like...

Speaker 2:
[60:11] What's lacking.

Speaker 1:
[60:12] Yeah, or the ways that you might look different from my build-a-bear human being that I magically could create. And I just think, looking at your partner in this way, just fixating on, like, oh, I wish your boobs were bigger. Oh, your little, you know, your small boobs. I just think this is mean.

Speaker 2:
[60:30] Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 1:
[60:31] I also think we should not ask our partner questions that we don't want the answers to. Like, I do think she was setting him up a little bit to, like...

Speaker 2:
[60:40] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[60:41] You know, it wasn't a great question to ask in the first place, but this is a perfect example of a time where being honest is actually just being cruel. Like, it doesn't serve anyone for you to tell your partner directly, like, yeah, I don't like your boobs. Like, that doesn't help you, it doesn't help her, it doesn't help the relationship. Like, this is one of those times where it's... I, as a therapist, give you permission to tell the incomplete truth to your partner, to tell a straight-up lie to your partner. Like, don't go overboard and like, oh, your boobs are the most perfect thing I've ever seen, but just say, like, I'm attracted to you. I'm with you because I'm attracted to you. I like the way your body looks.

Speaker 2:
[61:21] Because the real honesty would have been years ago when you're deciding if you want to be in a long-term relationship with someone. The real honesty would have been, you know what? I think there are some deal-breakers in terms of the attractiveness or physical attributes with this person where I'm not gonna be able to not think, I'm not gonna be able to enjoy myself having sex where I can see their chest. Like, the honest thing would have been like, being honest with yourself. I have some very specific things where I don't feel like I can be in a relationship with someone without that and moving on. And so, it's like, it's not fair. I think when a lot of people do the, oh, I'm just being honest, it's like they're being honest. Like, I'm showing, you know, I'm like showing with my hands here. Like, there's this reality here, this wider reality of like, I am a picky person and I want a person that looks a certain way. And instead of being honest about that wider reality, you like narrow, you like focus in on one very narrow slice of it. You're like, yeah, actually, I'm not in your boobs. And, you know, it's just me being honest.

Speaker 1:
[62:27] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[62:27] And it's like that comes off as really not genuine because the reality is there's a much larger thing that you're not being honest about. So if you really want to be honest, be honest and move on or do some serious personal work. Yeah, because it might be possible, you know, we've been, we've all been conditioned. Women more than men have been really conditioned on, we need to look a certain way and I compare my body, you know, everybody's body parts to my body parts. How do I stack up? Most men didn't really internalize that conditioning in that sort of way. Some men do. Yeah, I, you know, I've been around plenty of guys, you know, through high school, college, etc. who have fixated on stuff like that. And it's, you know, when you hear them talk about it, it's like, whoa, this is how your brain works. Like, that's exhausting. Like, just everyone is a comparison. But there are some people that have been wired that way. And, you know, I think it's important to suss that out from the beginning, unfortunately.

Speaker 1:
[63:27] All right. Well, that is the end of our questions for today. Please let us know if you like this series. We can honestly just continue doing it. We love hearing these stories, but we'd love to hear from you. You can drop us a comment on Spotify if you're listening there, or you can come over to Instagram or Vanessa and Xander and tell us there. And just as a little reminder, we would really appreciate if you took a second to just hit that subscribe button, leave a five star rating, leave us a quick review if you have a moment. We really, really appreciate it. That's all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thanks so much for listening and join us again next week. We release new episodes every Thursday.