transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] Hello, fellow law nerds, Jess here. Boom Lawyered is off this week, but that didn't stop the Supreme Court from taking up a new religious liberties case out of Colorado. The case involves a Catholic preschool challenging its exclusion from the state's universal preschool program because the preschool doesn't accept LGBTQ kids or kids from queer families. Imani and I will get into the case and what it means once we're back. In the meantime, though, enjoy this episode from our archives where Imani and I explain the conservative legal movement is using Colorado to try and change the relationship between religious and public schools across the country. Thanks folks and we'll see you on the tubes.

Speaker 2:
[00:51] Hello, fellow law nerds. Welcome to another episode of Boom Lawyered, a Rewire News Group podcast hosted by the legal journalism team that wants Mom Donnie to win, but thinks everyone needs to calm the fuck down about the New York City mayoral race. Honestly, I'm Rewire News Group's co-chief content officer, Imani Gandy.

Speaker 1:
[01:09] And I'm Jess Pieklo, Rewire News Group's other co-chief content officer. Rewire News Group is the one and only home for expert reprojournalism that inspires you to love on your political organizers right now, because it's been a lift for them. And the Boom Lawyered podcast is part of that mission. So a big thanks to our subscribers and welcome to our new listeners and viewers. And friends, family, countrymen even.

Speaker 2:
[01:34] Have you heard?

Speaker 1:
[01:36] Have you listened to the latest episode of Bitch Listen? If you haven't, go right now, download it. It's Ellie Mistal and Imani at their best. When I tell you this is maybe one of the most fun conversations I have had the pleasure of listening in on between Imani and Ellie. Like that is not bullshit. That is not hyperbole. And we've had Ellie on the pod a bunch of times. He never misses. But this episode in particular for the season that we're in, the zeitgeist, if you will, everyone go download it. Listen, we'll wait. Yeah, actually, no, we probably shouldn't wait.

Speaker 2:
[02:23] Yeah, let's move on. But yeah, he does not pull any punches in this episode. I mean, and how often do you get to see two black people sitting around talking about constitutional law? Not that often. So you might want to go check it out.

Speaker 1:
[02:35] Do it.

Speaker 2:
[02:36] Let's move on to our first segment, which we like to call, What the fuck is going on? Literally, what the fuck is going on? Jess.

Speaker 1:
[02:47] I don't know. I got nothing. I got no answers, Imani.

Speaker 2:
[02:49] I got something. So over the weekend, it was Halloween and I hope everyone had fun, dressed up, handed out candy, maybe found some solace at the bottom of a bunch of snickers, bars, wrappers, like I did. And Hanover, Pennsylvania, they went another route. They went a different route. There's a Catholic school called St. Joseph Catholic School. And they held a Halloween parade that featured, and I'm going to break and hold so you can prepare yourself for what I'm about to say. That featured the Auschwitz Gate. I mean, the gate, the big Ironworks gate. It says, Arbeit Mach Frei, which translates to, Work Makes You Free. Famously in Ironworks. Like, if you haven't seen pictures of it or you've never been there, you may have seen that one X-Men movie that had the origin story of Magneto. Yes. And he's standing crying, little boy standing crying in front of this gate that says Arbeit Mach Frei. That's the gate that someone made for this Halloween parade.

Speaker 1:
[03:51] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[03:52] Yeah. So according to the Auschwitz-Birkenau Memorial website, that motto was introduced at Dachau in 1933. That's the concentration camp that Anne Frank was murdered at, and then was later adopted by other concentration camps, most famously Auschwitz. Now, I can't fathom a world where a person decides to make a mock Auschwitz gate, and then just parade it down the street. But that's what this guy did, and he designed it, and he told pennlive.com that he made a mistake. I don't know how you accidentally make an Auschwitz gate. I don't know how many people had to see this Auschwitz gate. None of them stopped and said, wait a minute, this is probably a really bad idea. But it happened. And I have to say, there seems to be a lot of whoopsie Nazi shit going around lately, right?

Speaker 1:
[04:45] It really does.

Speaker 2:
[04:46] Like whoopsie, I made the Auschwitz gate for Halloween by accident. Whoopsie, I'm running for Senate and it turns out I have a Nazi tattoo, right? That populist candidate who's trying to take Susan Collins' seat in Maine had a Nazi tattoo. This girl in Crossbone, Tautenkopf, that was on the SS helmets, he just had it on his chest. Then it was like, I didn't know. And then he got it covered up with some Norwegian shit. That's also pretty dodgy. So it's like, I need people to just get it together. And I'm talking about Graham Platner, that folksy oyster farmer is like a white man I would cross the street if I saw in a dark alley, right? Like, we talk a lot about white people crossing the street when they see black people. We don't talk enough about the white people that black people cross the street when they see.

Speaker 1:
[05:29] We really don't. We really don't. That's a different episode.

Speaker 2:
[05:33] But also, I wanted to make this one point, and then I will stop ranting about the Auschwitz gate. So over the weekend, there's this woman, a Dutch Jewish member of the Resistance died. She was 103 years old. Like she was like knee deep in the Resistance. And I really think the two are related, right? The Auschwitz gate and the death of this 103 year old. Because a lot of the people who fought in World War II, who faced Nazis in Germany, are dying or dead, right? And so maybe these stories aren't being told anymore. Maybe that's why we have this absurd resurgence of really rank 1930s and 40s style anti-Semitism. Like I feel like maybe the Holocaust is becoming less personal for people because they don't have people in their life sitting around telling them, I went and I fought the Nazis or I'm a Holocaust survivor. I know people who are Holocaust survivors in my community. I don't know what the hell is going on, but I fucking hate it.

Speaker 1:
[06:27] Halloween is a dicey holiday for Catholics to begin with. So the idea that a school is doing a Halloween parade and then has a oops, Auschwitz float. Like what? And I mean, I think the tattoo thing and the sort of dying off of a generation is really relevant because the discourse around it has been, oh, I didn't know, or it's this and that in sort of like these closed insular communities. Well, the reality is, is no tattoo artist is going to do that without knowing what it is. Like, you go to a place that does that kind of stuff. So, you know, I think the whoops I did a Nazi is becoming less and less. I mean, it was never believable, but at this point now, it's like, that's just cover for folks who want to believe that it's not there. We can see it, but will my Aunt Edna? I have no idea. The point of losing a generation that really stood eyeball to eyeball with fascism and beat it down, I think is something we should spend more time on because that's really smart, Imani, to connect us to.

Speaker 2:
[07:43] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[07:44] I don't know how to transition out of that into my news story. There's only a hard pivot away when you're talking about Nazism. I actually have some good news.

Speaker 2:
[07:55] Okay. Love that.

Speaker 1:
[07:56] Right? That's the appropriate reaction. I never come in with good news. I am famously known for not having good news when it comes to the courts. But I have some. Okay. Last week also, while this Oshwood float was happening apparently, a New York court dismissed a lawsuit by Texas challenging New York's shield law. For folks who don't know or don't remember, shield laws protect abortion providers in abortion protective states from prosecution if they treat patients from states that have abortion bans on the books. This has come up since Dobbs overturned Rowe and we have providers in states like New York and California and Colorado not only seeing folks from other states but also facilitating the mailing of pills to folks in those states. So naturally, Texas hates this. And a lawsuit was filed in July by Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton to compel a New York court to enforce an order by a Texas judge in a case that was filed last year against a New York doctor accused of prescribing abortion pills to a patient in Texas. That order levied a $113,000 penalty on the doctor, Dr. Margaret Carpenter, and barred her from continuing to send abortion medication to Texas. New York has rightfully basically ignored these attempts as it should. This is nonsense crossing into state boundaries like that. And the lawsuit dismissing ends this particular quest by Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton, who honestly, I think, could use this time to focus on his own legal troubles and sussing out that really messy divorce that he finds himself in the middle of right now.

Speaker 2:
[09:38] I mean, really, Ken Paxton. Ken Paxton has turned into a bit of a troll, I think.

Speaker 1:
[09:45] You think?

Speaker 2:
[09:46] I mean, turned into, has been for a while. But like, this man really woke up and was like, you know what? I'm gonna sue New York because they're not gonna enforce the theocratic nonsense that we have going on in Texas. And the New York court was like, hey bitch, have you heard of sovereignty? Right? Like, this is the whole, like the idea that Texas thinks that they can go and sue somebody in New York because New York wants to protect abortion when Texas doesn't is absurd. Like, it's just absurd to me. He can take that $113,000 fantasy judgment and chop it directly up his own ass.

Speaker 1:
[10:19] Completely.

Speaker 2:
[10:21] It's so frustrating. And I'm glad that New York passed that shield law. And I'm glad that it's doing what it was intended to do. And I'm glad that Margaret Carpenter got out from under this lawsuit, because like you said, it's been hanging over her head for at least a year.

Speaker 1:
[10:34] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[10:34] Or I think it was at least a year, maybe like eight to nine months. And so she hasn't been able to leave New York, right? Because they were going to try to serve her as soon as she stepped foot across the Tappan Zee bridge or whatever. That's the only bridge I could think of, off the top of my head, also because I love the name of the Tappan Zee bridge. I think it's falling down now, which is sad.

Speaker 1:
[10:54] Before anybody busts in either on social media or in the comments to say, well, wait a second, we enforce criminal laws across state boundaries all the time. Let's have a reality check. We're not enforcing criminal laws against state lines here. This isn't a murder case. This isn't a trafficking case. There is no uniformity of criminal law when it comes to abortion across state lines. There are states that recognize the right and states that don't. And so that analogy just doesn't fit. And so now that we've put it away, I hope to never hear it again.

Speaker 2:
[11:31] Yes. I mean, we will. We definitely will. But also I'd have another point to raise about Ken Paxton's trolliness. Did you hear about how he said that if Mom Donnie wins this mayoral election that I really shouldn't even be talking about, because I think everyone needs to calm the fuck down about it. But he said that if Mom Donnie wins, that he's going to impose a 100% tariff on any Texan who moves to New York. He said that on Twitter, or x.com. What are we doing, Ken? Like, get it together, man.

Speaker 1:
[12:08] Oh, my God.

Speaker 2:
[12:10] Bless.

Speaker 1:
[12:12] So yeah, some good, some bad in the what the fuck is going on.

Speaker 2:
[12:16] Some Nazis, some abortion, you know what I mean? Some good, some bad. Oh, you're vague.

Speaker 1:
[12:21] So let's move on. Now I have the Facts of Life theme song going through my head.

Speaker 2:
[12:25] You take the Nazis, you take the abortion, you take the shit laws in there, you have the facts of life.

Speaker 1:
[12:33] Was a phenomenal sitcom for all you youngins out there. Go look it up.

Speaker 2:
[12:38] Our pop culture references are for people who are like 45 years and older, and it's going to stay that way, America.

Speaker 1:
[12:44] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[12:44] All right. Moving on to our next segment.

Speaker 1:
[12:47] So we have talked a lot on this podcast about how the conservative legal movement scaffolds its policy achievements in the courts. That means a conscious construction of a specific narrative. Usually the conservative Christians are systematically persecuted in this country by such things as civil rights protections and laws that recognize multicultural and multi-faith perspectives in public spaces. And because we're in this deconstruction era, everything the conservative legal movement is trying to build up with policy is in reality a tearing down of decades of progress towards greater equality in this country. So the target we're going to focus on for this episode is public education and specifically the push to create public religious schools.

Speaker 2:
[13:38] Hold up.

Speaker 1:
[13:39] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[13:39] I think we may have made a mistake here because we already did this. Remember last time we did this. We did this case. The public funding of religious schools. St. Isidore's. Remember that?

Speaker 1:
[13:51] Oh, I sure do. We should probably do a TLDR for our listeners and new subscribers though.

Speaker 2:
[13:56] So St. Isidore of Seville Catholic Virtual School versus Drummond is the name of the case out of Oklahoma that we talked about, I think it was like January of last year. One of Amy Coney Barrett's friends and a bunch of theocrats tried to launch the country's first virtual Catholic charter school.

Speaker 1:
[14:16] And just a reminder for folks that charter schools are public schools. That's something I think that gets lost in the sauce here. So these folks wanted very clearly a taxpayer funded religious school, a taxpayer funded Catholic school.

Speaker 2:
[14:30] So the fight in St. Isidore's began in 2023. That's when Oklahoma's charter school board approved an application by the Archdiocese of Oklahoma City and the Diocese of Tulsa to create this virtual Catholic charter school, St. Isidore of Seville. Named after, and I shit you not, this is true, because I saw this in the script and I was like, Jess, are you making jokes? Like, what's going on here? St. Isidore of Seville, named after the patron saint of the Internet. That's a thing. That's true. So this school was intended to be an explicitly religious school that would participate in, quote, the evangelizing mission of the church.

Speaker 1:
[15:12] It is absolutely wild to me that Catholics have a patron saint of the Internet.

Speaker 2:
[15:17] When did that happen? I feel like patron saints, they were named in the 12th and 13th century. Who woke up and decided that the Internet needed a patron saint?

Speaker 1:
[15:26] If Comcast goes down, do I pray to St. Isidore? No, I'm serious. If I can't find something, I know what to do. I pray to St. Anthony or patron saint of lost causes. I mean, Catholics have patron saints for literally, we have them for everything, but the Internet seems like an interesting evolution of faith. That's really all I have to say about that. I didn't believe it either. And then I thought, wow, these folks really did name their school after the patron saint of the Internet. They were that earnest and serious about it.

Speaker 2:
[16:04] Which is absolutely absurd. I wonder when we're going to find the first patron saint of like ChatGPT.

Speaker 1:
[16:10] The patron saint of AI?

Speaker 2:
[16:11] The patron saint of AI.

Speaker 1:
[16:13] Oh my gosh. Okay. No, we got to reel this in.

Speaker 2:
[16:18] We're already off the rails. So Gettner Drummond, that's the name of Oklahoma's Republican Attorney General. He went to the Oklahoma State Supreme Court and asked it to invalidate the charter school board's contract with St. Isidore. The Republican Attorney General was like, wait a second, we can't do publicly funded religious schools. That's not how this shit works. And the state Supreme Court was like, yeah, bro, that's not how this shit works. And so they granted the Attorney General's request to invalidate the charter of this school, right? It was really rather straightforward because what the fuck are we doing with this school, guys? Like, what are we doing? Right? Here's what the Oklahoma Supreme Court decided. Because St. Isidore is a public school, state laws require it to be nonsectarian. It can't be explicitly religious and it can't evangelize as St. Isidore said that they intended to do. That is consistent with both the state, Oklahoma state, and the federal constitution, which both bar the state from quote, using public money for the establishment of a religious institution.

Speaker 1:
[17:26] Pretty straightforward. But as you might imagine, the school board didn't like that decision. So what did they do? They petitioned the Supreme Court to step in. And hey, guess what happened? The Supreme Court did last term, hearing arguments in that case in April. Justice Barrett recused herself from the case. She didn't say why, and justices don't ever have to say why they recuse, but the overall belief was that it was because one of her former Notre Dame colleagues and besties is behind this St. Isidore's push. Well, Barrett recusing herself from the case was likely the reason the court split four to four, ultimately upholding the Oklahoma Supreme Court decision and blocking St. Isidore's from successfully launching in Oklahoma. And here's why I say that. Since 2017, the justices have uniformly sided with parents and religious institutions in three challenges to state policies that had barred them from getting secular education-related funds. Three cases. First, we have Trinity Lutheran, when the court ruled that Missouri violated the Constitution, when it barred a church preschool from state-run programs that recycled old tires and used that materials to resurface school playgrounds. That was the first instance. 2017. Then in 2020, the justices ruled in Espinosa versus Montana that Montana couldn't exclude religious schools from a tax credit program used to provide funding for children to attend private but not religious schools. Those schools that were private but not religious. Then in 2022, in Carson versus Macon, they invalidated a similar main policy.

Speaker 2:
[19:06] We had a whole conversation with Professor Liz Sepper from University of Texas. We had a whole conversation during our summer sessions this past summer about the First Amendment and religious freedom. What's interesting about all of those cases that you mentioned is that each of them chipped away at the protection for religious freedom and also the separation of church and state a little bit. But you can kind of see how and why they did it, right? Because there was always an element of parental choice that sort of split the baby between the state and the school. But here we're talking about a state that just wants to directly hand money to a religious school. Right? So we talked to Liz Sepper about how the Roberts Court has been slowly rewriting the First Amendment and First Amendment jurisprudence and talking about the cases you mentioned, Trinity Lutheran, Espinosa v. Montana, Carson v. Macon. We talked about those in the Chipping Away. We talked about everything from Hobby Lobby to Mahmood v. Taylor, the LGBTQ book band. Liz talked to us about how this revision of the First Amendment is really about protecting religious power and not religious pluralism. By the way, we're supposed to be a country about religious pluralism, but we're now retconning the founding of this country, so now that it was like a Judeo-Christian thing and all the other religions need to bend the knee, like we're in fucking Game of Thrones or something. It's very, very irritating.

Speaker 1:
[20:31] Right. Clearly, nobody from the conservative legal movement is satisfied with the outcome of St. Isidore's, right? That was supposed to be their brass ring.

Speaker 2:
[20:39] That's where Colorado comes in. According to reporting by Anne Schimke and Erica Meltzer at Chalkbeat, Colorado, that's a publication focused on education reporting, Colorado has a brand spanking new public Christian school.

Speaker 1:
[20:53] Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[20:54] It's called the Riverstone Academy. It's a tuition-free public elementary school that, quote, blends strong academics with classical values, hands-on trade-based learning, and a Christian foundation. And this is all according to their website. So Riverstone Academy opened in August in southern Colorado, just outside city limits in Pueblo. That's a few months after the Supreme Court punted in St. Isidore's with that 4-4 ruling, right? And so Riverstone Academy is just spoiling for a fight, right? They want to have this fight. They want the Supreme Court to take it up and obviously rule in their favor. According to Schimke and Meltzer's reporting, leadership of Riverstone Academy have told the Colorado State Education Department that it would be unconstitutional to deny Riverstone Academy state funding.

Speaker 1:
[21:48] Um, point of order.

Speaker 2:
[21:50] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[21:50] Here's a problem.

Speaker 2:
[21:51] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[21:52] Colorado is another state that requires public schools to be nonsectarian, and nonsectarian means not religious. So this move is absolutely part of that larger push to get state funding for conservative Christian schools writ large.

Speaker 2:
[22:08] Right. And the details around Riverstone Academy are pretty fricking shady. According to the reporting, Riverstone was proposed and launched within months. Normally, it takes more than a year to plan and open a school.

Speaker 1:
[22:21] And the religious nature of the school was also either absent or muted according to the reporting. So when asked to respond, leaders for Riverstone Academy said they weren't trying to hide anything, but that the fact that this was going to be a religious school, Imani, just wasn't really relevant to any of the questions presented in this application to the state agency in charge of authorizing new schools. Like, you don't need to know if we're religious or not, right? So the big difference, though, is unlike St. Isidore's, Riverstone Academy is up and running, although so far without any state money. And now they're basically daring the state of Colorado to deny them cash, knowing they have the votes at SCOTUS to back them up.

Speaker 2:
[23:05] Setting aside that just the wholesale revision of the First Amendment is just, it's really, it's horrific, right? Like, it's horrific to anyone who's not a Christian. I just have to say, I need these Christian evangelicals and these conservative law firms to leave Colorado alone.

Speaker 1:
[23:24] Leave us alone!

Speaker 2:
[23:25] Just leave us alone, whether it's Masterpiece Cake Shop, whether it's 303 Creative, they're just coming here, they're taking our jobs. I don't know why I just said that. They're taking our jobs. But they're just coming here because they're mad that Colorado is super progressive. Like we are more progressive than California now. I'm very excited to have in the last three years moved to the most progressive state in the Union. And now everybody's coming for our next. Hey guys, get off Colorado's nuts.

Speaker 1:
[23:56] For real, I mean, even Lauren Boeber's district supported our reproductive freedom amendment here in Colorado hand over fist. So get out of our state.

Speaker 2:
[24:06] Get out of our state. Also, Colorado was where libertarianism was born. So I feel like that has something, like it was literally born in Westminster, which is maybe like a 20, 25 minute drive from where you and I live. Not together.

Speaker 1:
[24:17] We don't live together. As the crow flies.

Speaker 2:
[24:19] As the crow flies. So it's just honestly, just get out of our nuts. Get out of our nuts? Get off our nuts. Get out of our mountains. Our mountains, majesty. Get out of our amber waves of grain. Just leave us alone. All of that sounded really porny. Get out of our nuts. Get out of our mountains and our amber waves of grain, baby. Oh my God.

Speaker 1:
[24:48] This is what Trump 2.0 does to a person. And we're not even a year in.

Speaker 2:
[24:54] I was like, we're both manic already. And it's like, completely. You have three more years of shit. Can't do it. I can't do it.

Speaker 1:
[25:01] Oh, buckle up, folks. It's going to be a ride. All right.

Speaker 2:
[25:05] Our next segment. What's on deck? Let's look ahead. What's going down?

Speaker 1:
[25:09] Well, Imani, as you may or may not have heard, has been absolutely killing it lately, just crushing it. And so to that end, she's going to take a well-deserved week off from Boom Lawyer and do the podcast as she should. While she's out, I am very excited about this. Not that I'm excited that you're out, but I am going to be joined by Skye Perryman, president and CEO of Democracy Forward. And if you don't know Democracy Forward, you should. They are a legal nonprofit organization who is currently successfully suing the bejesus out of the Trump administration. And so we are going to talk about one of the myriad, four hundred and fifty some-odd. No, that's not that many, but they have a lot of lawsuits. They have so many lawsuits. Most recently, to restart some of the SNAP benefit funding. But if you name something where the Trump administration is stepping out of line and the good folks at Democracy Forward are there to bring them back in. And I am really excited to talk about their work and what they've got going on at the court. So we have that on deck.

Speaker 2:
[26:15] That's going to be an amazing interview and I'm sorry I'm going to miss it. We have oral arguments in two abortion-adjacent cases at the Supreme Court in December. One of those cases involves a so-called crisis pregnancy center, right? A fake clinic and its efforts to avoid complying with the subpoena and a state fraud investigation. They're basically turning a fraud investigation to a whole federal case of a fucking crisis pregnancy center.

Speaker 1:
[26:38] They are. And the audacity of these guys.

Speaker 2:
[26:41] It's really bizarre. And then the other case involves a Christian preacher who is trying to block the city of Brandon, Mississippi, from declaring a local ordinance that bans protests outside a public amphitheater as unconstitutional, right? So he wants to be out on the street talking his Jesus talk. And the city was like, hey, man, you can't do that, right? They're also trying to bar the city from any future enforcement of the ordinance to him and his preaching, right? So this is a case about a Christian preacher who's out in the corner with his sign screaming about the end of times, but it has really clear implication for clinic protesting and clinic protest protections. So that's something to keep an eye on. We're going to cover that for you.

Speaker 1:
[27:24] Yeah, that's why we talk about it as abortion adjacent, right? Like how much Jesus in my public space do I need to be subjected to? Right?

Speaker 2:
[27:33] I don't want to foul that Jesus in my public areas. Thank you.

Speaker 1:
[27:37] Another reference, Imani.

Speaker 2:
[27:39] I'm kidding, it's porny today.

Speaker 1:
[27:43] It's cuffing season, that's why I guess.

Speaker 2:
[27:46] Okay, we have to shut this shit down and it's getting way up the rails. If you would like to talk to us about anything we've talked about today, preferably not cuffing or any other things to do with porn and mountain's majesty, you can find Jess on BlueSky, H-E-G-E-M-O-M-M-Y.BSKY.social. You can find me on BlueSky via the BlackSky server. So that is angryblackladyatblacksky.app, but it's still on BlueSky, it's a whole thing.

Speaker 1:
[28:15] It is a whole thing.

Speaker 2:
[28:16] It's a whole thing and I figured out how to switch servers and now I feel just way blacker than I did like three weeks ago. That's not true, I feel exactly the same amount of black. Also, if you would like to follow Rewire News Group and you should on everything, TikTok, Instagram, threads, Jess is still laughing. TikTok, Instagram, threads, BlueSky, every other place, I don't know, Friendster, Myspace, what other fucking social media channels are we on? Like, all of them, you should follow Rewire News Group on all the things, rewirenewsgroup.com on BlueSky. Subscribe to our YouTube channel because then you'll get Bitch Listen and Boom Lawyered notifications when those publish. And aside from that, what are we going to do, Jess?

Speaker 1:
[29:04] We're going to see you on the tubes, folks.

Speaker 2:
[29:07] Yeah, we're going to see you on the tubes. We're going to try and act right too, but we can't promise anything.

Speaker 1:
[29:11] No, no guarantees.

Speaker 2:
[29:12] This is Boom Lawyered, a Rewire News Group podcast produced and engineered by Chapter 4 and available on YouTube, Apple, Spotify and wherever else you get your podcasts.