transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] This episode is supported by the Gambrell Foundation, who believe a great life grows from strong relationships, a sense of belonging, and moments of awe and wonder. Learn more about their work at gambrellfoundation.org.

Speaker 2:
[00:19] I've been teaching at City College probably for like four or five years. And one day, I was invited to an event, and I was walking around the corner, and I was like, oh my gosh, I had no idea that Alexander Hamilton's house was around the corner from campus. I remember the feeling when I saw it, it literally was a feeling of awe. I'm like, it is here. And I find such awe in history, and standing in places where other people have stood, or major events have happened. And then I started thinking about, what are all the other things around here? And if I'm not seeing it, I wonder if my students are seeing it. And if the community is seeing it, how can we tell these stories? And so I was like, wow, I think there's some potential here. If we just go ahead and try to figure out a handful of places in this neighborhood that could really inspire students and sort of stop them in the tracks, be like, I didn't know that.

Speaker 1:
[01:15] This is The Science of Happiness. I'm Dacher Keltner. Welcome to the second episode in our ongoing series, Cities of Awe. Together, we'll explore how we can invite a sense of awe and wonder into our experiences of public spaces, and how they can strengthen our collective well-being and connection to the world around us. Recently, I traveled to New York City to meet up with psychologist Bob Mckinnon. He's one of the world's experts on the science of what it takes to get ahead in life, even when we face headwinds. It's called social mobility.

Speaker 2:
[01:50] Research shows that actually kids who believe that they don't have a chance of moving up, actually don't move up. It's self-fulfilling. On the other end of the spectrum, there's the belief that, well, anyone can do anything. And so if you just work hard enough, you can sort of become whatever you want. And we know that's also not true.

Speaker 1:
[02:09] Bob teaches at the City College of New York. And a little while back, he took students on an awe walk around Harlem. They toured major cultural institutions like the Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture and even the home of one of our founding fathers.

Speaker 3:
[02:24] I didn't know he was Caribbean. I didn't know that he even lived there. The fact that he, as an immigrant, came here based on nothing but good faith and was able to work his way up to the position of being one of the founding fathers is very emblematic of what this country is.

Speaker 1:
[02:45] We'll be exploring the science of awe in public spaces, how it influences our sense of belonging, as well as our ability to move up in life. That's up next, after these messages from our sponsors. I don't know what it is about this time of year, but as soon as the seasons start to shift, I get this urge to clear everything out. Closets, inboxes, that random drawer full of cords. And recently I realized my finances needed that same kind of reset. Let Monarch do your financial spring cleaning for you. One dashboard that gets your entire financial life organized. No more clutter, no more mess, no more scattered logins, just accounts, investments, property, and more all in one place. Get your first year of Monarch for half off, just $50 with promo code science. Most apps just tell you what you already spent, but Monarch actually helps you plan ahead. You can set goals and really see where you're headed financially. One feature that generally surprised me is the AI Weekly Recap. It flagged a spending spike I hadn't even noticed and helped me catch it before it became a pattern. Use code science at monarch.com to get your first year half off at just $50. That's 50 percent off your first year at monarch.com with code science. There's something really energizing about being deep in a problem that actually matters. When you're not just looking for answers, you're trying to really understand. I've been having more of those moments lately with Claude as a thinking partner. Claude is the AI for minds that don't stop at good enough. It's the collaborator that actually understands your entire workflow and thinks with you. Whether you're debugging code at midnight or strategizing your next business move, Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems that matter. What's powerful is how it connects everything, pulling in context from your tools so you're not jumping between tabs. If you want to test an idea, just describe it and Claude can build something interactive on the spot. Ready to tackle bigger problems? Get started with Claude today, claude.ai/happiness. That's claude.ai/happiness. And check out Claude Pro, which includes access to all of the features mentioned today. claude.ai/happiness. Welcome back to The Science of Happiness. I'm Dacher Keltner. As part of our Cities of Awe series, we're looking at the ways public spaces can transform and enrich our daily lives. Bob Mckinnon directs the Social Mobility Lab at City College of New York, where he researches what drives how we move up in life and translates that knowledge into practical advice that can help students from communities that need it most. Moments of awe can help. Research shows that experiencing even a little bit of awe supports students in staying curious in school. So, Mckinnon invited his students on an awe walk of historic spaces in Harlem. I asked him to take us on a walk with him step by step.

Speaker 2:
[06:09] So, the first stop that we go on to is right on campus, something called the Great Hall. Just wait for everyone to gather. Really look around, check out the architectural detail. It's a hall, but it's also a monument to public education. And so, City College was the first free university in the country. And the story is that this was an experiment to see what happens if we educate the whole public, because at the time that's not the way in which education was working. All of these banners, all around us, are essentially from major universities from around the world. They were given to the college as an extension of good luck and good wishes for this experiment. And then you'll see stained glass windows that were gifts from major universities and colleges inside the United States.

Speaker 1:
[07:00] What year is that?

Speaker 2:
[07:01] The university was founded around like 1860, 1870. The Great Hall was built in the early 1900s. And then as we're telling this story on the tour, we're talking to them like they built this for you. Think about that. This is built for you and all of these universities are wishing you well. The people who were physically building this, that were laying what you see here, that were erecting this majestic sort of hall, were working class folks as well, many of which presumably wanted to send their kids to a place like this. And one of the students quoted like I can feel them looking down on us and pushing us forward.

Speaker 4:
[07:37] We'll see the next generation make their accomplishments, and let's see how when we graduate and we become that generation, we'll see the further next generation on how they will accomplish their success.

Speaker 2:
[07:50] We leave Great Hall, we go around the corner, maybe walk two or three minutes, and there's the Grange. And the Grange is Alexander Hamilton's home. And so we're talking about his home. I'm like, this is Alexander Hamilton. You know, he created our financial system and the Coast Guard and the Treasury. So Alexander Hamilton was born in the Caribbean. He was orphaned. His father deserted him when he was young. His mother died of an infectious disease when he was very, very young. He was sort of just stranded there. And someone took a chance on him, gave him a job as a bookkeeper. And he loved to read. So he read and read and read and read. And he always wanted a better life for himself. And that time, a better life was coming to America. But how does he get here? He has no money. But the people where he lived believed in him. So they took up a collection and sent him to the mainland. Afterwards students were like, wow, I didn't know he was from the Caribbean like I am.

Speaker 3:
[08:46] I didn't know he was Caribbean. I didn't know that he even lived there. The fact that he as an immigrant came here based on nothing but good faith and was able to work his way up to the position of being one of the founding fathers is very emblematic of what this country is.

Speaker 2:
[09:06] From there we walk down, we go into Stryvers Row, we talk about this idea that this was a place that was originally intended to be another enclave for richer middle class white people. But it happened to be built in an economic downturn and they needed to make it open to others. And African American middle class people, doctors and scientists and jazz musicians came and they sort of made that their home. Originally, the term strivers row was derogatory. It was actually a jab. It was like, oh, look at these people striving to be better than they are. But the people who lived here, who essentially were like striving for a middle class and beyond life, they were like, you know what? We're going to own that because we are striving for a better life, right? And so again, an inspiration for people who are in the middle of their journey and striving on their own.

Speaker 5:
[09:53] It's very impactful to think about how there were successful African-American surgeons, doctors, businessmen that were able to afford it and just what it means for them to turn a name that was meant to spite them to something inspirational.

Speaker 2:
[10:14] We went to the Y. And again, this building is in the middle of Harlem, right? And you sort of see it all the time. Like, imagine going here and Jackie Robinson is teaching you basketball.

Speaker 1:
[10:23] No way.

Speaker 2:
[10:24] If you were living here, one of your neighbors might have been Malcolm X. If you were interested in arts or literature, you might have come across James Baldwin or Langston Hughes. People who were in these buildings, living, teaching, sharing, connected. The idea of entrepreneurship runs really deep in these streets. People who are like, you know what, I may not have access to other systems, but I'm going to do something with the skills and the connections I have. Then finally, we end up at the Schoenberg Center for African-American Research, and that was really profound. We had our curator there give a brief talk about the artwork as soon as you walk in, which is essentially a tribute to a Langston Hughes poem.

Speaker 6:
[11:07] I've known rivers, I've known rivers ancient as the world and older than the flow of human blood in human veins.

Speaker 2:
[11:15] It's essentially the story of him tracing not only his journey as an individual from Mississippi up into New York, but the journey of all African-Americans throughout history along these great rivers of time. Then at the end of the talk for the students to discover that Langston Hughes is literally interred beneath their feet.

Speaker 6:
[11:33] Ashes of Langston Hughes are interred directly beneath, right here, in a stainless steel urn, a little red urn. So this is a sacred space at the Schalberg Center.

Speaker 1:
[11:45] I just got goosebumps.

Speaker 2:
[11:46] Yeah. Which is by the way how I felt when we were designing the tour, we're going around looking at things and I walked in and I learned that and I got goosebumps.

Speaker 1:
[11:53] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[11:53] Like this has to be the final stop. Then afterwards you heard just some really wonderful articulations of what this means. One person saying how I finally feel like I belong. This is my place because people like me have been here before.

Speaker 7:
[12:09] Right now I'm a senior especially because I'm from out of state. I feel a little bit alone and I'm about to enter this whole world and rat race by myself, especially seeing all the people who came before and all the major figures and universities that do support us and who are hoping for the best for us. It's very encouraging and it helps me to feel a little bit more motivated and like, okay, there's people who came before me who do trust and know that I can succeed and who have invested in that as well.

Speaker 2:
[12:44] It was also this idea of curiosity that came through, like continuing learning, like someone actually made the comment, sometimes I wonder what the value of education is. Then he said, and here I just realized sometimes it's just to learn, interesting and awe-inspiring things that you will keep with you.

Speaker 1:
[13:05] Awe outings, like the one Bob led in Harlem, can help alter the trajectories of the people who show up for them. We hear about that and we dig into the science behind how moments of awe can provide a sense of place and belonging. That's after this break.

Speaker 8:
[13:31] If you're looking for some of the sharpest takes on film and television, I hope you'll tune in to Critics at Large from The New Yorker.

Speaker 9:
[13:37] Over here at Critics at Large, we like talking about what we love, but crucially, what we hated about what we're watching.

Speaker 10:
[13:43] But even more, we like making sense of what's happening in the culture right now and how we got here.

Speaker 8:
[13:49] Join us as we make our way from Eddington to Moby Dick, from Ted Lasso to the rise in Therapy Speak, from The Pit to Luigi Mangione.

Speaker 9:
[13:57] It's Critics at Large from The New Yorker, wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 11:
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Speaker 1:
[15:03] This episode is brought to you by IQ Bar, the snack, hydration, and mushroom coffee brand that keeps me fueled all day. IQ Bar protein bars, IQ Mix hydration mixes, and IQ Joe mushroom coffees are low sugar, brain and body fuel that I actually look forward to. IQ Bar has become part of my daily routine, whether it's coffee in the morning or a bar between meetings. With over 20,000 five-star ratings and counting, more people than ever are fueling their busy lifestyles with IQ bars, brain and body boosting bars, hydration mixes, and mushroom coffees. Their ultimate sampler pack includes all three. I love how clean everything is, ingredients like magnesium and lion's mane, no added sugar, and totally free from gluten, dairy, soy, and GMOs. And right now, IQ bar is offering our special podcast listeners 20% off all IQ bar products, including the ultimate sampler pack plus free shipping. To get your 20% off, text happiness to 64,000. Text happiness to 64,000. That's happiness to 64,000. Message and data rates may apply. See terms for details. Welcome back to The Science of Happiness. I'm Dacher Keltner. We just went on an awe walk in Harlem with social mobility expert Bob Mckinnon and his students. Soon after, Bob and I went to a studio in midtown Manhattan to talk about the role that awe plays in shaping how we move up in life. You know, you've been on the ground working with issues of social mobility, and we know from what I see in the data the last 10, 15 years, it's just gotten harder to move up the social ladder, so to speak, of education and wealth and the like. How do you think about social mobility? What does it mean to you?

Speaker 2:
[17:00] You know, sometimes we think about social mobility, we think strictly from an economic perspective, like how much money am I making? And as you know, money doesn't buy happiness. Certainly need enough to sort of feel sufficient in your life. And so if part of it is like how do you redefine social mobility? In a sense that it's accessible, it means a good life, it's about sort of thriving and enjoying and loving, and you know, the relationships you have and all that kind of stuff, while still being very aware of the economic inequality and the need to make sure that people have what they need. And so, you know, I think about that through that lens, like what do people need and how can we get it to them?

Speaker 1:
[17:34] How do you think about what helps people rise and find some social mobility?

Speaker 2:
[17:40] It's so complicated. I think each person's journey is so individualized. When I think about my own, I grew up poor. I was able to make it where members of my family and friends that I had and knew didn't, and tried to understand sort of why. I was the youngest in the family, and so there was a little bit of learning through trial and error with my brother and my sister who were older. I read as a kid, but I wasn't reading Tolstoy. I was reading like box scores for the Red Sox. But that meant that I read a lot, and that signaled to my mom that I was a reader. And so she called me her little professor, even though she didn't know anyone who had ever gone to college, let her go teach there. And so that sort of a Pygmalion effect, which is sort of the investing in someone's potential, I definitely benefited from. You know, the fact that I was able to believe that education was important, access to Pell Grants, and a good state university that I could go to in Pennsylvania. And so there's things that you could point to that were like sort of the obvious things. And then there's other things that aren't obvious. I've generally had really good health. I have had access to some social capital that I've used pretty wisely along the way. The larger that came through my education. I had a good group of friends. I moved to the right places. There's a lot of dumb luck where when I was younger and I did stupid things, it could have been the end of all of it, right? But I didn't. What I was also finding fascinating as I was sort of looking into this is that the dialogue that we have around this is fundamentally broken. And so on one hand you have some people who are basically saying like the American dream is dead. And research shows that kids who believe that they don't have a chance of moving up, actually don't move up. It's self-fulfilling. And so we put these narratives out there and it can be corrosive. On the other end of the spectrum, there's the belief that anyone can do anything. You just work hard enough, you can become whatever you want. And we know that's also not true.

Speaker 1:
[19:29] I mean, it seems like there's this opportunity right now to change this narrative of social mobility. So, what do you hope is the story that we start telling about social mobility?

Speaker 2:
[19:39] I think we try to provide a lot of answers, and I think social mobility is about a lot of questions. And so, I teach the economics of social mobility class at City College, but it's unlike probably most economics courses, and it is highly personalized. The whole trajectory of the course is a series of four essays that the students write about their own life. Wow, starting with trying to understand where they came from, and then looking at sort of how systems and other things may have impacted their journey, and the whole way up until the end where they think about, what does my life look like 30 years from now? You give them the information to say like, here's the kinds of things that may impact you, good or bad, and now you make some choices about how you think that impacted both how you got into this room now and where you want to go. And I think that's what we're trying to do, is how do you get it in the hands of people who can figure out what to do with it?

Speaker 1:
[20:29] What's the role of awe in all of this? Awe is, in some sense, to know that I'm standing where Langston Hughes is in terror, it's inspiring. What do you see more broadly as the role of awe in upward mobility?

Speaker 2:
[20:41] Yeah, I think on a very base level, it's inspiring. It can inspire you to feel more connected to your community, to your world, that you're part of something, you belong. I think those are all really important. I think there's also a very big role of sense-making. This makes sense to me now. Now, I can understand it. Also, a sense of agency in it. I actually heard one student who's talking about this giving them the inspiration to push through. As we know, 50 percent of people who go to college don't finish.

Speaker 5:
[21:11] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[21:13] They're working and got family stuff.

Speaker 2:
[21:15] This is one little push to keep going. That's inspiring. I think that in generally, the idea of awe literally is all around us, and it is also woven into social mobility. Anyone who's watched the movies like Rocky or Rudy, that's an awesome feeling.

Speaker 11:
[21:31] It is.

Speaker 2:
[21:31] They're conveying that.

Speaker 11:
[21:32] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[21:33] Look at this achievement. At the same time, that's just a superficial level of it. To me, when I look at those journeys, you can watch that and if you ask someone like, hey, why did Rocky make it? They'll point to the training scenes and look how hard he worked, and that is definitely true.

Speaker 1:
[21:48] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[21:49] But years ago, we recut a trailer for Rocky. What we did is we said, now, look at all these other things.

Speaker 1:
[21:54] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[21:54] So for example, in the beginning, Rocky only gets a shot because someone else gets hurt, a boxer, so complete luck.

Speaker 1:
[22:02] I didn't, I forgot that.

Speaker 2:
[22:03] Then there is his Lone Shark boss who gives him money and time off to train. Polly invites him into the beef facility where not only does he train and hit the sides of beef, but he gives him protein every day in the form of a giant juicy steak. Then he's got the support of Adrian and other people and on and on and on. So to me, I find that more awesome than him climbing the steps and prevailing ultimately.

Speaker 1:
[22:31] How do you get young people to see that? We have such an individualistic narrative here.

Speaker 2:
[22:37] So you're probably familiar with the research that was done by, I think, Tom Gilovich and Shai Davide about headwinds and tailwinds, right?

Speaker 1:
[22:43] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[22:43] So the nature is that we are more aware of the adversity in front of us than the tailwinds behind us. But it's actually pretty easy if you show the tailwinds for people, be like, oh, I never saw that. We did an exercise where we have students highlight the lyrics from the title track to Hamilton. First, we're like, go ahead and highlight all of the headwinds, the things that he had going against him, like his mom dies, cousin commits suicide, all this kind of stuff. Then it's like, but now look at all the things and highlight all of the tailwinds. They took up a collection to send them to the mainland, right? Yeah. Becomes an aid to Camp Washington. It's all there. You just have to point it out.

Speaker 1:
[23:16] Such an awakening. So good to hear. My final question has to do with our times. These are tough political times. Probably some of your students are directly affected by ICE and the violence that is being targeted at campuses. And Bob, you must have a lot of immigrant students. It's a place of immigrant upward mobility as public universities are. And what do you think this kind of work that you do on the narratives of upward mobility, the personal stories, the connection to history and even awe and a sense of home, what do you think that gives to these students facing this kind of threat?

Speaker 2:
[23:52] I think it provides in spite of what's happening, some reassurance that they belong, that we are a nation of immigrants, that we all came here in different ways. And when you point to Alexander Hamilton, was he legal? I don't know how he came here. Most of people don't know how their families got to America, right? And so the idea to sort of show and demonstrate that you belong here, that your journey is just as valuable as everyone else's, I would hope provides a little bit of stability during unstable times and some ability to feel resolute in like, I'm going to do what I can to be what I can in spite of people who don't want me to.

Speaker 1:
[24:36] Awesome. Thank you for your work on social mobility. It is transcendently important right now.

Speaker 2:
[24:41] Likewise, thank you for all the work that you're doing to help us see the world in a more awesome and wonderful way.

Speaker 1:
[24:46] Thanks, Bob. We're traveling from Harlem to Reno, Nevada, for our next Cities of Awe exploration, visiting a museum that invites us to slow down, so we can experience the beauty, depth and awe that comes with looking at a piece of art.

Speaker 12:
[25:15] I think people are very reluctant to feel anything. We like to just try to ignore or put our feelings under the carpet and sweep them away and not deal with them. But art and sharing experiences with others about it can be a very powerful antidote to that isolationism.

Speaker 1:
[25:35] That's next time on The Science of Happiness. Thank you all for listening to The Science of Happiness. Our producer for this episode is Kate Parkinson Morgan. Our field reporter is Jess Jupiter. Our associate producers are Emily Brower, Taranee Cucker and Anna Zhou. Our producer is Truc Nguyen. Our sound designer is Jenny Cataldo of A Company Studios. Our executive producer is Shuka Kalantari. I'm Dacher Keltner. Have a great day. Lately, I've been using Osea and their Dream Collection, and I gotta say, I love it. The Dream Night Serum and Dream Night Cream are clinically tested, powered by bioretinal, and designed to reduce the visible effects of stress on skin while you sleep. My skin feels more nourished and less dry by morning. That wind down time helps promote a sense of serenity, because skin care is self care. Osea also just launched the Dream Bioretinal Body Serum. It's a full body treatment with bioretinal, red seaweed, magnesium, and lavender that helps visibly de-stress skin, improve firmness, and smooth the look of lines with less potential for irritation than traditional retinol. Give your skin a rest with clean, clinically tested skin care from Osea. And right now, we have a special discount just for our listeners. Get 10% off your first order sitewide with code happinessatoseamalibu.com.

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Speaker 11:
[27:42] From PRX.