transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:20] From VinePair's New York City Headquarters, I'm Adam Teeter.

Speaker 2:
[00:23] And I'm Joanna Sciarrino.

Speaker 3:
[00:24] And in Seattle, Washington, I'm Zach Geballe.

Speaker 1:
[00:26] And this is The VinePair Podcast. All right, EIC.

Speaker 2:
[00:30] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[00:31] What have we been publishing? What you're reading? What's important on the site right now?

Speaker 2:
[00:36] All three things. We published a piece from Erin Goldfarb this week on the 12 Most Important IPAs of the 21st Century.

Speaker 1:
[00:44] And then Dave Infante trolled him.

Speaker 2:
[00:46] Trolled so hard.

Speaker 1:
[00:48] Hosted a meme that said, that is the last thing that someone says before they get divorced.

Speaker 3:
[00:52] A millennial dad.

Speaker 2:
[00:53] A millennial dad, specifically. Well, Dave, you should know that this piece is driving a ton of traffic right now. To all you millennial dads reading it, thank you very much.

Speaker 1:
[01:04] Also, Dave, you should care. You're at the Craft Brewers Conference. Maybe you shouldn't make fun of people that care about the beer.

Speaker 2:
[01:12] Or you should, that's his thing.

Speaker 3:
[01:15] No cows are sacred with Dave even spotting a cow.

Speaker 2:
[01:19] Do you know what the first one he picked was? Did you guys read it?

Speaker 1:
[01:22] I did.

Speaker 3:
[01:22] Of course I did.

Speaker 2:
[01:23] Can you guess?

Speaker 3:
[01:24] I have notes.

Speaker 2:
[01:25] Oh yeah.

Speaker 1:
[01:26] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[01:26] You have notes? No notes are being accepted at this time.

Speaker 3:
[01:31] Only from Dave, not from me. Fair enough.

Speaker 2:
[01:33] Dogfish Head, 90 Minute IPA.

Speaker 3:
[01:35] Of course.

Speaker 2:
[01:36] Yeah. I think he did a really great job with this. I had assigned it to him and he was like, I had a great time writing this piece.

Speaker 3:
[01:43] Cool.

Speaker 2:
[01:44] Which is so funny. Okay. One note. What's your note, Zach?

Speaker 3:
[01:47] Oh, I just think the one other beer I would have perhaps considered not so much because of, well, in a way that's true for several of the other beers on that. For what it symbolized in the moment in the last 25-ish years of Craft Beer was the Space Dust IPA from Elysian and just in part for Steve Lude going up on stage. Maybe it was CBC. I actually don't remember which beer.

Speaker 2:
[02:08] I think it was CBC, right?

Speaker 3:
[02:10] Yeah, with the like, you know, fuck A, B and Bev shirt. And like that beer being such a touch point for this. And it was really IPAs, I think, at the heart of that. So that was my only note. But I think it was a really cool list. And it's one of those ones where you could have probably, well, maybe Aaron wouldn't have had as much fun if it was twice as long, but there are plenty of other beers that could have certainly merited note there. So, you know.

Speaker 1:
[02:34] I like to be included athletic.

Speaker 3:
[02:36] Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2:
[02:38] Run wild.

Speaker 1:
[02:40] Yeah. It's a good piece.

Speaker 2:
[02:41] Yeah. What about you, Adam?

Speaker 1:
[02:43] I'm just I'm riffing off of what you've been reading. You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2:
[02:46] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[02:46] Yeah, yeah. I thought you'd really push. No, I mean, I liked I did like Dave's hot take on, you know, the finished long drink.

Speaker 2:
[02:55] Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[02:57] I think he has he does great analysis and has good ideas as to why it's happening and all that stuff.

Speaker 2:
[03:03] So wait, can I tell you something? So Dave sent me a link. I was almost going to share it with you guys. He sent me this link to a podcast called Who? Which is like a celebrity and pop culture podcast. You guys know it? No. I had never heard of it. He was like, listen at 1330. They start talking about Miles Teller, Rory McElroy, whatever, and their investment in finished long drink. Then they're like, and then the news about this is that like White Claw's parent company bought it this week. One of the hosts was like, I was listening to or I was reading this in VinePair, and she said the cunty columnist said that it was a very smart deal, very smart investment. Then the other host was like, cunty columnist at the liquor blog basically is what they call VinePair. She was like, no cunty in a good way. Anyway, I thought that was so fucking hilarious.

Speaker 3:
[04:06] He was going to put that on a hat before too long.

Speaker 2:
[04:08] He's like, no, in a good way. But I thought that was so great. We got a little pick up in this pop culture.

Speaker 1:
[04:14] Never heard of this pop culture.

Speaker 2:
[04:15] Our liquor blog, Adam.

Speaker 1:
[04:16] Our liquor blog. No, that's the Irish Liquor Blog. Anyways, that's a real liquor blog. You read anything, Zach?

Speaker 3:
[04:24] Yeah, on Ye Olde Liquor Blog. I enjoyed Hannah's piece recently about the decade by decade, the most important American wines or most important wines period, I guess that helps shape drinks culture. Again, I thought fun definitely brought up a lot of wines that would have occurred to me in that space. I think whether it was New Zealand Sauv Blanc, which I was like, this has to be on here when I saw the headline, Rombach or Chardonnay obviously on there, lots of others. I think the only thing I was like, I wonder how to work it in. She did mention Stag's Leap Cab in the 70s, but I was like, I feel like there needs to be another Cabernet specifically, probably a Napa Cab somewhere in the 90s and 2000s. But I couldn't even, in Hannah's defense, not that she needs me to defend her own piece, but I couldn't think of a specific wine that was like, okay, this is absolutely the one. But it felt like we're like, kind of like this other thing that drove wine culture, maybe something that Michelle Rolande had consulted on or something like that, to tie several recent episodes together. So but I really enjoyed it. And again, it's like interesting to see how the kinds of wines and in particular, how it's less about specific brands over the last couple of decades and more about broader categories, which I think is absolutely right. I don't think that's a mistake. I think that's just like how it is earlier on in the history. It's single brands that really drive entire categories. And now it's a little more categories with a number of different brands sort of jockeying for position within them.

Speaker 2:
[05:59] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[06:01] So today I want to talk about Psalms as spirits experts and what that sort of means for the broader drinks world, but also what wine especially could learn from sort of strategies this way. So there have been a few instances that have occurred over the past few weeks of sort of that we've seen of media and trade targeting Psalms and getting Psalms sort of serve as spirits experts in place of actual spirits professionals. And I've talked to a bunch of spirits professionals about this. And while some of the things they're not fans of, for example, like the New York Times using the sommelier as their spirits expert in their spirits tasting round up instead of using actual well-known bartenders who've spent their entire career working with these spirits, while the sommelier has spent their entire career working with wine, there are times that they can all admit this is smart. And especially where a few very prominent bartenders, and I was talking yesterday about this, where it's smart, is when some certain spirits brands just don't have the luck that they might normally have with spirits professionals.

Speaker 2:
[07:16] That their product doesn't resonating with spirits professionals.

Speaker 1:
[07:19] That's one reason.

Speaker 2:
[07:20] For whatever reason.

Speaker 1:
[07:21] One of these products, I won't name it, but it's a Mezcal that's trying to break out. So this is the example I want to use. Mezcal is trying to break out that, for whatever reason, it hasn't found a fit with bartenders, right? I think it's kind of expensive. It's a little flashy. It's kind of like, as it was said to me, the 1942 of Mezcal, right? It's trying to be really high end. It's very well funded. I think it raised a lot of money from other very successful entrepreneurs, etc. And so bartenders, for whatever reason, haven't embraced it. I think there's always been the same kind of bias in spirits as there is in wine for emerging, especially with emerging brands, where bartenders really want to support small, independent, especially when it comes to certain spirits from certain places, like spirits that are made by people of those places, that can draw a long line, generations of heritage to those places, etc. That's just same as when we talk about wine professionals and certain wine regions, etc. and emerging wine regions. And so this brand instead has run this really big press trip with a lot of really famous psalms, including Aldo Psalm, Amy Racine, etc. And they're all on this big trip with this brand. And I was talking to bartenders about this yesterday, and they were saying how like, it's actually smart.

Speaker 2:
[08:46] They said it was smart?

Speaker 1:
[08:47] Yeah. They said like, look, we wouldn't go on that trip.

Speaker 2:
[08:50] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[08:51] It's not for our bars, right? It doesn't, this liquid doesn't fit, but it potentially fits at the restaurants that they run.

Speaker 2:
[08:58] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[08:58] And the beverage programs that they run, especially as like a neat pour. It's a lot of people don't consider this to truly be a mezcal, like a lot of spirits professionals, because it's very smooth and easy to drink. It's not as smoky and aggressive, etc. But like that's the exact reason why like it's the greatest entry level, you know, gateway mezcal for a lot of restaurant consumers. And I think that there's a lot of parallels here for what we've been arguing for with some wine brands and spirits professionals. I think the same could be done with them, where there are lots of wine brands that I think focus a lot on these, you know, press trips, etc. to try to bring some to their properties and some either don't want to come or are interested because it's not the hot region at the moment, etc. But like a lot of most bars also serve wine. A lot of these cocktail bars have, you know, usually at least a few reds, a few whites. I mean, they're not like the insane wine programs with seller storage, etc. that the wine bars and restaurants will have. But they have wine on their menus because they want to have something for, you know, a customer that may not want to drink a cocktail, right? And they almost never get targeted, right? They almost never get invited on these same kind of trips. And so I think that there's a lot that could be learned from this because in the same way that this Spears brand is like, huh, you know, why are we trying so hard to fit square peg and round hole here? Like if we're not having luck with like the craft cocktail world, right? Let's go after a more like beverage dinner focused world. Same could be true for some of these wine brands. Like if we're not having luck with or we're just not getting the attention because right, you know, we're California wine and the Psalms in New York City really only care about wines from Europe or whatever. Think about the cool kid bartenders that would go and also really want to learn about wine. I mean, most people in beverage are interested in all beverage. There obviously are few, you know, silos. I think mostly wine professionals themselves, like executives, maybe only care about wine. But for the most part, like people in the service industry, especially I found in their 20s and 30s, are like really interested in all of it. And so like inviting them on these journeys could be ultimately really beneficial for these brands, especially when they're not having, you know, a lot of luck with the primary on trade gatekeepers.

Speaker 2:
[11:15] Yeah. Well, Adam just made every point there was to make in this podcast episode. So, all right.

Speaker 1:
[11:21] Well, this needed to be a short one anyways. Okay.

Speaker 2:
[11:24] Well, I want to pick up on a few things that you just said. I think that, well, first of all, as we've discussed extensively, the wine marketing budgets are probably a lot smaller than what these spirits brands have, right? So they're not hosting, probably not hosting regular press trips to bring.

Speaker 1:
[11:39] Some of them do though.

Speaker 2:
[11:40] Some of them do.

Speaker 1:
[11:41] A lot of regions do. A lot of regions do. Okay.

Speaker 2:
[11:43] That's a good point.

Speaker 1:
[11:44] Do big regional trips. I mean, I'm sure Zach's been on them. Yeah. A lot of regions do. Brands less so because I think a lot of the brands, like the spirits brands don't have a problem with it. They're willing to be like, yeah, we'll bring you down for three days. And like, we'll just find enough shit for you to do for three days. They're like, we don't care that you're drinking, you know, Jack Daniels the whole time.

Speaker 2:
[12:03] But they have the budgets to do it too.

Speaker 1:
[12:05] But I think wine brands get nervous about that. Like, oh, can we really have them drink, like, I don't know, Caymus for three full days? Like, they're going to get bored with that. They're not going to want to do that. And spirits are like, no, like, we can make cocktails with it. We can drink it straight. We can, like, go to the bars in the area and whatever. And see how it's used in all the different bars. And like, I think wine has a harder time figuring out how they would do that. So yeah, that's why the individual press trips for wine doesn't happen a lot, but regional trips happen a ton.

Speaker 2:
[12:33] Yeah. And then the other thing I wanted to mention was, you know, and you kind of touched on this, that Amy Racine, I feel like, is a very good example of this. She is a beverage professional. She is a beverage director. She handles this across across restaurants for a whole group, right? It's not just I think by trade, she was a song, right? And now she's a beverage director. And so I think investing across categories from when people are earlier and younger in their careers is just, again, super smart. You don't know where they're going to be in five, ten years. And then they have this fondness and familiarity with your brand because you took them on this great trip, and now they're in this role, and they think of your brand. So I think that that is so smart, even though it looks maybe a little contrived, right? Like bartenders didn't pick up your mezcal, so let's go after Psalms. But I think that these can be decision makers in one way or another at some point in their careers, and it's just a smart investment.

Speaker 3:
[13:33] Yeah, I think it's both that, for sure. It's this idea that you want to reach the buyers and the decision makers, and maybe as a brand, you don't really give a shit whether that person wears a pin or not on the floor. That's just kind of a, that's just who you're trying to get, right? Someone who runs a beverage program for a larger restaurant group, like you want that person, whatever their background, whatever their perceived area of expertise. I also think that a piece that sometimes is a little bit not well understood outside of the trade, and I think you were getting at this, Adam, is there's generally a lot of interest across category from professionals. Again, sommeliers and wine professionals that I've known and worked with, many of them have deep interest in spirits, right? There's a lot of similarities. A lot of these spirits have their own very specific histories, their specific kind of techniques and all these kinds of things that you can nerd out on in the same way that you can with wine. And while there are obviously some wine pros who are like, well, wine is where I start and end, whether that's spirits, whether it's other fermented or distilled beverages, whether it's things that are non-alcoholic, there's often a kind of, I don't want to say creep, that's the wrong way to put it. But you tend to stay interested in learning more about the broader beverage world. So it's not to me strange to be like, wow, look at these wine people, they drink Mezcal? I know that's not what we're saying. I think there's just sometimes this perception that, well, if you're known as a wine professional, how could you possibly know or care about anything else? But I also think that there's this other piece of it that's really interesting to me, which is to what extent outside of their own individual restaurants, whether Amy puts this Mezcal on the list that any of the restaurants are not, is not really the thing I'm interested in. It's whether by doing this, by being public about it, being on social media, etc., it creates more interest around the brand, whether that's from bartenders or whether that's from other buyers around the country. I mean, look, Amy has been someone we have talked about, we've awarded, she's obviously very highly thought of, and she's not the only one on that trip in that camp. So I think there's some benefit of maybe you're not getting the most high-profile bartenders, but if you're getting high-profile beverage professionals to go on that trip and be kind of associated with your brand, that's probably a big enough win even if they're not the exact prototype. And the last thing I will say about this in this specific vein is, I also think that it's sometimes hard to get the same amount of traction with bar folks because bar buyers, if they're cocktail-side, generally have just fewer outlets and they don't necessarily want to be as beholden to an individual brand for probably good reason. And so, I think you actually would, from a just pure dollars and cents standpoint, it actually makes more sense to try and get in with people who are going to be maybe less interested in having 30 Mezcal on their list than having three. And if you're one of those three, you are probably going to do better volume than being one of a lot of bottles on a back bar even if it's in a great cocktail bar.

Speaker 1:
[16:33] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[16:33] Yeah, I think that's a good point too.

Speaker 1:
[16:35] What do you think, a little bit, because I think we've chatted about this a bunch in terms of why this is smart. One other question I do have though to both of you is, do you think there is something to be said for when that expertise is presented publicly, like staying in one's lane? So a little bit of like the, you know, is it appropriate to like have the Psalm be a public spirits expert or it, or should you have the Psalm as a spokesperson for your spirits campaign or vice versa? Like, does that matter? Do we care about that? Or if it upsets some professionals in that specific camp, like if it upsets the bartenders, like who kind of cares?

Speaker 2:
[17:17] Yeah. I mean, I feel like industry people probably care about it. We probably, we're obviously, we've taken note of this, but I would say for, especially for publication, right? For a lifestyle or a general publication, it doesn't matter to the average consumer. And you can say, this is this person's creden-, like these are this person's credentials and that's why they're able to speak about the best vodkas, even if they're a wine person. Like I would just guess that for most people, it doesn't really matter.

Speaker 1:
[17:48] Right. Whereas for like the other members, for the members of like the spirit trade, they're like, but I have more of an expertise in this wine than I asked basically.

Speaker 3:
[17:54] Right. And I think there's kind of two things I would add to this. One is a little bit kind of how do you carry it, right? And I think there are just some people who, whether they're best known as wine experts and professionals, just have kind of the ability to convey a degree of expertise and authority that just makes it sort of so that the average reader, the average person kind of encountering that content is just going to be like, oh, okay, sure, this makes sense. And some people can't. And that's maybe where if you're the person putting together these tasting panels or building these campaigns or something, you got to be a little bit thoughtful about who you're reaching out to. And then the other piece of it, I would say, is like, I think there is some truth in the idea that sometimes, I don't think it's a wine specific thing, but I think there's sometimes a way in which you, some people are just better at kind of communicating through the, like if you're talking about especially, you know, putting together a tasting panel or something like that, I think sometimes I've, you know, I've sat in on these for every category of BevAlk, like I've done wine tasting and wine judgments, I've done spirits, I've done beer, et cetera. And sometimes you do see this challenge that I think people, because like the wine lexicon is much more robust and it's just, for better or for worse, the way that wine people talk about wine is often a lot more verbose, fundamentally. Like there's just more terminology, there's just more expectation that if you're a wine professional and a wine expert, you are able to talk a lot about wine and differentiate between wines, even if a lot of that is kind of bullshit, honestly, it still carries into this space more effectively than I think spirits pros sometimes have a harder time sort of being like, let's tease out the specific nuances here because it's just less a part of it. I mean, yes, you will definitely see in some categories and in some settings where like, hey, if we're tasting a number of different bourbons against one another, then yes, spirits pros are going to talk about, well, what is the aging regimen, mashbill, etc. The specifics of the distillery and stills and stuff like that. But the language there is not as well-developed and well-understood by the average public and it's just sometimes a harder conversation to have. And so I get a little bit reaching into the wine world and saying, hey, these people are effective, or at least theoretically effective communicators in this way. I do think though it's probably if you're putting together a tasting panel, like it's fine to, I think it's fine to include a wine professional. I think they can't be the only professional you include. That seems like a mistake to me because yeah, there are bartenders out there, there are spirits experts who are just as good at communicating, and their expertise feels a little bit more natural in this space. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[20:27] I don't know. I'm curious what other people think. You should hit us up at podcast.vinepair.com and let us know, and we should figure out what the sirens are going on outside because it's been a lot.

Speaker 2:
[20:36] I will say one last thing.

Speaker 1:
[20:37] Yeah, please.

Speaker 2:
[20:38] I am judging a brisket competition next week.

Speaker 1:
[20:42] Whoa. You used to be a food owner.

Speaker 2:
[20:44] I feel a little bit like a wine professional giving spirits advice.

Speaker 1:
[20:52] Is it smoked brisket or all kinds of brisket?

Speaker 2:
[20:55] I think it's all kinds of brisket.

Speaker 1:
[20:57] That's a little...

Speaker 2:
[20:59] I'm a little scared.

Speaker 1:
[21:00] That's a little all over the place. It's too broad. It's not just smoked. It's not just barbeque brisket.

Speaker 2:
[21:07] I don't think so. I think it's all... I have to learn more.

Speaker 3:
[21:11] Well, Joanna will tell us what she's been eating on a future episode.

Speaker 1:
[21:14] Can't wait. Cannot wait. All right. Well, let us know what you think about this. Hit us up at podcast.vinepair.com and I'll talk to you both on... Well, I'll talk to you, Joanna, on Monday.

Speaker 2:
[21:24] Yes. Have a nice weekend to you both.

Speaker 3:
[21:27] Sounds great.

Speaker 1:
[21:32] Thanks so much for listening to The VinePair Podcast, the flagship podcast of The VinePair Podcast Network.

Speaker 4:
[21:38] If you love this podcast, please leave us a rating or review wherever it is that you are currently listening to it on. It really helps other people discover the show.

Speaker 1:
[21:48] Also, tell your friends, tell your neighbors, tell your colleagues. Basically, tell anyone about The VinePair Podcast. It's always very appreciated, especially by Joanna. The podcast is hosted by myself, Adam Teeter, our editor-in-chief, Joanna Sciarrino, and Zach Geballe, Somelier, former Somelier from Seattle, Washington. As we all know, theme music by Darby Seaside.

Speaker 4:
[22:11] Art for the podcast by Daniel Grinberg.

Speaker 1:
[22:13] VinePair was co-founded by myself and Josh Mallon. Thanks so much again for listening. We will see you again the next time you listen to an episode.

Speaker 4:
[22:20] If you made it all the way through these credits, I again consider you a super fan.