transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] A few weeks ago, I had a conversation with someone I'll call Javi. We're not using his real name because he's undocumented. He's a 24-year-old college student who was born in Mexico, but now lives in California. Javi doesn't have much faith that a path to citizenship is coming. And right now, staying here feels riskier than ever. So lately, he's been thinking about leaving the country. Javi's the only one in his family who's undocumented. His siblings were born in the US and his parents eventually gained legal status.

Speaker 2:
[00:27] And so like that kind of left me out in the dark. It does make me feel like I have to do like as messed up as it sounds or selfish as it sounds. You kind of have to think about like fending for yourself, you know, like I'm I have to fight for my future.

Speaker 1:
[00:41] Yeah, no, that's real. So how much will it cost you to leave the US.?

Speaker 2:
[00:47] From what I've heard, it's like anywhere from 15,000 all the way up to like 20 or 35,000 dollars or euros.

Speaker 1:
[00:54] Javi is hoping to move somewhere in Europe. Some countries there offer special visas for job seekers that give people between six months and a year to find work. But applicants have to show that they can support themselves during that time, which means that if Javi wants to move to Europe, he'll need to save up to a year's worth of living expenses. But he says he's also open to moving back to Mexico.

Speaker 2:
[01:13] If I were to go back home, even though I would be able to legally work there, like it would be nice to have a little cushion, you know, rainy day fund to help prop me up.

Speaker 1:
[01:22] How much do you have saved up currently?

Speaker 2:
[01:25] Right now, I'm still in the early stages. I'm like around 3,000, 2,000 to 3,000. That's only because right now I'm still, I'm saving up. I'm simultaneously also trying to finish off my undergrad degree, but I should be done by the end of this year. But after that, it's going to be like full throttle saving, you know?

Speaker 1:
[01:42] Yeah. What kind of job do you have right now?

Speaker 2:
[01:45] So right now, I just work under the table. You know, I have, I work for a restaurant. And it's like really difficult to find out any other job in this current predicament that I am in.

Speaker 1:
[01:57] So it sounds like if money weren't an issue, you would have already left the US.

Speaker 2:
[02:01] Yeah. If money weren't the issue, then I would have left already. Or if I had my degree already as well, then I probably would have left already. That's why you find a lot of people say like, it feels kind of like a golden cage, you know, where there's a lot of opportunities, but you can't really take full advantage of them and they feel kind of trapped here.

Speaker 1:
[02:20] So it sounds like you're making the bet that living abroad will be a better life than here in the US.

Speaker 2:
[02:25] Yeah. So I think some people think too much about the financial aspect of it in terms of like, oh, like I'm not going to be making as much money. But in terms of like quality of life, it's actually, I think, better abroad. And so I think I've gone into this with the full understanding that, yeah, I might not get paid the same amount that I would have gotten paid here with my degree. But that's besides the point. I think peace of mind is the better option.

Speaker 1:
[02:52] I'm Reema Khrais and welcome to This Is Uncomfortable, the weekly show from Marketplace about life and how money messes with it. As the Trump administration's crackdown on immigration intensifies, I've been hearing more and more stories of people like Javi. It's hard to say for sure if this is a trend. Return migration has always been a thing. And as you can imagine, data on undocumented people isn't easy to collect. But new data from the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas shows that since February of last year, unauthorized immigration is in the negative, meaning that more people are leaving the country than arriving. So this week we're asking, what's the cost of leaving the United States when you're undocumented? Not just the dollars and cents, but the weight of leaving behind, in many cases, the only home you've ever known, without a guarantee that you'll ever be able to return. Later in the episode, I talk with Monsy Hernandez, an activist who moved to Germany almost 10 years ago. They told us about the financial and emotional cost of leaving the US, and how they're helping people like Javi navigate the process of leaving. But first, I'm talking with Michael Foote, an immigration attorney, about what he's hearing from clients who are hoping to leave the US, but don't have the option of saving up. From what you're seeing in your practice, are more people actually deciding to leave the US?

Speaker 3:
[04:11] In my practice, I'm seeing people who want to leave the US because they're being held in detention centers without bond. They are looking at a huge $30,000, $20,000, $10,000 legal fee from most lawyers, that's what they're charging right now, for a writ of habeas. All the nonprofits that I partner with, I do a lot of pro bono work with nonprofits, they're all slammed with work trying to get people released from detention centers. So, I think that the people who are choosing to leave are choosing to do it under duress. They are facing either going back to their home country, their country of origin, we call it, or an indefinite stay in a detention facility that is heavily underfunded, that is routinely and systematically denying and violating people's constitutional rights.

Speaker 1:
[05:14] Yeah, they just don't know how long they're going to be detained for.

Speaker 3:
[05:17] Exactly. So, I have a client right now who we sort of are at a crossroads, right? Where we're looking at however long it takes to maybe win a habeas petition, or possibly self-deporting and going back to a country where their life is at risk. That's really what they have to weigh right now. And I can guide them, I can advise them on what those possibilities look like, but I can't tell them what to do. It's their decision.

Speaker 1:
[05:48] And it's a high stakes decision, right? There's the financial costs, which I want to get into in a minute, but there's also other costs as well, right? Like I've heard about this 10-year ban, can you tell me about that? How does that work exactly?

Speaker 3:
[06:00] Yeah, 10-year ban is such like a confusing term for a lot of people.

Speaker 1:
[06:03] It is, yeah.

Speaker 3:
[06:04] So the 10-year ban is really a 10-year unlawful presence bar. It usually refers to the US rule in immigration law, where if, let's say, you've come to the US., undocumented, you didn't pass through Customs and Border Protection, and you were here for over a year without filing anything, then you could be imposed a 10-year ban if you decide to leave. So that's the big 10-year rule thing. So if you've been here one year and one day, you can be subject to what's called a 10-year ban, and you're not allowed back into the US for 10 years because you've technically broken the US rules by coming here, not seeking any sort of status for a year. So this is really interesting because a lot of people are brought here as kids by their parents, and they would be subject to that 10-year ban if they were ultimately deemed removable and removed.

Speaker 1:
[07:00] Okay, so that makes the decision even more high stakes. I want to move to the money part of this. How much money do you typically need to move to another country? Like, what are you recommending to your clients if that's what they want to do?

Speaker 3:
[07:11] It's complicated, right? Because a lot of the times, it's hard for immigrants to get US bank accounts. It's hard for immigrants to sort of transfer money and wire money. Immigrants who have, are facing self-deportation or choosing to self-deport are looking at anywhere from 10,000 to 20,000, I usually tell people, to make sure you got 10,000 to 20,000, just so you're not on the bread line when you get back to your country of origin or your third-party country of removal.

Speaker 1:
[07:41] So we know that the Department of Homeland Security is trying to incentivize people to leave, right? They're offering undocumented people, last I saw, $2,600, and the cost of their plane ticket if they leave the US voluntarily. Are people actually doing this and getting the money?

Speaker 3:
[07:56] It's actually up to $3,000 now. They keep raising, they keep upping the price. It was initially $1,000, and then they upped it to $2,600, and now it's $3,000. I've had clients who wanted to do that. They came to me afterwards trying to get that money after they had been removed. People who choose to self-deport, who are then deported, who are then trying to get money out of the US government, it's a really long uphill battle. It's not very likely you're ever going to get that money. I would not financially hang your household finances on receiving that money. If you get it, great. It's like it'll help cover some of the costs. But I would not have that be a key factor in your decision making.

Speaker 1:
[08:38] Yeah. So how have you seen people cobble the money together?

Speaker 3:
[08:41] One of the most impressive things that I've witnessed from immigrant communities is how much they support each other. How much the family unit is supportive of other family members. So I've seen families really rely on relatives in these instances where they need to self-deport and they need to fund their own removal back to their country of origin.

Speaker 1:
[09:05] What other kind of financial hoops have your clients had to jump through when leaving the US?

Speaker 3:
[09:09] A lot of it is the plane ticket, lost job, wages, housing loss, any sort of possessions. It's hard to sort of take your stuff with you if you were picked up by ice in Minnesota, taken to a detention center, and then they don't let you out to pack your stuff up. You just, you kind of go. So you've got to rely on someone to handle your house, your lease, all that stuff. So it can be like 15, $20,000 just for a single adult.

Speaker 1:
[09:40] Well, what about people who don't have an order of removal? Maybe their green card or their visa got denied, and they have a little longer to plan.

Speaker 3:
[09:46] Yeah, if they have a green card denied and or a visa denied and they want to leave the US, they're going to self-deport. That person has much more control. They're able to sort of leave on their own. They can seek voluntary departure while living outside of custody, which is so much better than having to do it from a detention center. There are like CBP has a self-departure process that includes travel assistance and that stipend we talked about. So they qualify for the same things. The main differentiator is not necessarily the cost of removal. It is the control you have over your removal.

Speaker 1:
[10:27] Talking to Michael, I was struck by how often the decision to leave is made under pressure, whether someone has been detained or is living with the fear that they could be. It's also likely one of the most expensive decisions they'll face. For dreamers, those are people who are brought here as children, that choice can carry a different weight, because it can mean leaving the only home they've ever known. After the break, we hear from one of those dreamers, Monsy Hernandez, an activist who left the US almost a decade ago.

Speaker 4:
[10:55] I was thinking, I must be the first person to ever wave goodbye to the Statue of Liberty. This is insane.

Speaker 1:
[11:05] At the heart of the show is the belief that hard conversations are worth having. If there are other tough subjects that you really want us to cover on the show, let us know. Call in at 347-Ring-Tiu. Welcome back. I'm Reema Khrais. This week on the show, we're answering the question, what's the cost of leaving the United States for undocumented people? At the top of the show, I talked with Javi, who told me that he's saving up to leave and estimates he'll need about $15,000 to $35,000 to make that leap. But I also wanted to speak to someone who was on the other side of that decision, who left behind the United States and started over in a new place. That led me to Monsy Hernandez. They're one of the founders of Onward, a support group for undocumented people considering leaving the country. Monsy was born in Mexico and grew up in South Carolina. As a young adult, they received DACA status. That's the program that lets undocumented people brought here as kids work legally in the US, but it doesn't offer a path to citizenship. Even with DACA, life in the US felt like one struggle after another for Monsy. So in 2017, Monsy left. Does it ever feel surreal that you're living in Germany?

Speaker 4:
[12:15] Yes, quite often when I get to go and visit my family in Mexico or when I find myself in Paris for Christmas because a friend invited me over, I have to look around and remind myself that this is not a movie, this is my life. I am able to cross borders that I had never allowed myself to dream of. It's so surreal and I wake up just so grateful, and I do feel very guilty oftentimes that I get to have these incredible adventures. But it is hard to believe even today.

Speaker 1:
[12:54] Guilty because your family is still in the US?

Speaker 4:
[12:58] Guilty for my family, for my friends, and for all DACA and undocumented and stateless people in the United States. Even my family and friends that are United States citizens, natural born, are having a difficult time in the United States too, especially those who quote unquote look Latino.

Speaker 1:
[13:21] Okay, so I want to talk about your beginnings and how you ended up in Germany. So let's go back in time. How did you first come to the States?

Speaker 4:
[13:31] I was taken underneath the seat of a car, and my mom told me we were going to the United States for two weeks just to make sure that we liked it. I was nine years old. This was back in 2003. My little sister was three years old, and my mom decided we're going to go to the United States, and I had no idea what that meant. I was just like, okay. And then I guess I remained there for the following 15 years.

Speaker 1:
[14:03] They grew up in South Carolina, which, to put it mildly, is not a friendly state for undocumented people. But Monsy was still optimistic about their future.

Speaker 4:
[14:11] As a teenager, I definitely still believed in that meritocracy. I believed very much that if I may, I was a very smart cookie at the time, and I was doing great in school. And I truly believed that because I was giving it my all to my studies. I believe my life in the United States was guaranteed to become everything that my parents wanted it to be.

Speaker 1:
[14:39] That started to change in 2008, when South Carolina's state legislature passed a law barring undocumented people from attending the state's public universities. Monsy couldn't afford tuition to a private school, and financial aid was out of reach. Undocumented people in South Carolina also can't get a driver's license or a job. By the time they turned 18, Monsy was demoralized.

Speaker 4:
[15:01] I was very shocked because I wasn't entirely sure where I went wrong. I did not understand why the students that I had gone to school with, who I always saw as maybe slackers or maybe they didn't work as hard. I was, I guess, judgmental at the time of people who didn't work as hard, but they were getting into colleges, they were getting all right scholarships, they were able to apply to become lawyers or nurses, and I was banned from all of those things. So I was trying to figure out how this was my fault, as opposed to recognizing that this was a systematic failure. And unfortunately, during the time, right after I left high school, my mom was taken by ice and placed in the detention centers. So then the focus shifted even more from, higher education is a dream that is now gone. Let's focus now on survival for yourself and the family.

Speaker 1:
[16:00] Neither Monsy nor their father could legally work. So the family mostly got by on savings and donated food.

Speaker 4:
[16:06] For sure, I had made up my mind to leave, for sure. When I got to see my mom, after she got out of the detention center, and it was extremely difficult. The state in which my mom was given back to us, she was absolutely broken and fragile and weak. She looked smaller. She couldn't speak above a whisper. And she wasn't the same person that I had grown up with, this extremely strong Mexican woman was just not there anymore.

Speaker 1:
[16:44] Monsy couldn't stand living in a country where something like this could happen to their mother, or themselves. But they couldn't just book a flight and start over. The process of leaving the US is lengthy and expensive. Monsy realized that they could legally work and start saving money if they applied for this new program called DACA, Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, which gives people who are brought to the US as children limited legal status in the US. In 2013, Monsy was accepted into the DACA program, which meant that they could get a driver's license, a job, and start saving the thousands of dollars they need to leave the country. At the time, Monsy was working three jobs to make ends meet.

Speaker 4:
[17:21] My life in the United States was not a life. I was surviving, and there was a very, there is a very marked difference between surviving and actually living.

Speaker 1:
[17:34] South Carolina has never been a friendly state for immigrants. But after the 2016 election, Monsy, who was now 22 years old, started experiencing heightened racism and harassment. They were sure that leaving was the right decision. But Monsy was worried about that 10-year ban that we talked about earlier in the show. If they left the US., they wouldn't be able to return for 10 years. And even after those 10 years were up, permission to re-enter the US is up to the discretion of border officials.

Speaker 4:
[17:59] I was afraid of failing and then not having any community that I could rely on. I was afraid of finding out that life was worse outside of the United States, that there really was nothing outside of the United States waiting for me. And even worse, that perhaps the reason I wasn't succeeding in the United States was not because of a systemic issue, but rather because of a me issue.

Speaker 1:
[18:24] In 2017, Monsy decided that they wanted to move to Germany. Monsy was married by then, and they would make the big move with their husband.

Speaker 4:
[18:31] And I, more than anything, I really wanted to go somewhere where I was not going to be hated for being Mexican, which to me at the time, I really believed that it was my fault for the way that I looked and spoke and for my origin. So I thought, if I just go somewhere where no one knows that I'm Mexican, then I won't be followed by this anymore. And Germany was far away enough.

Speaker 1:
[18:57] Yeah. Okay. So I want to dig into the financial side of all of this, because it is expensive to relocate. It is expensive to leave the country altogether. What did it cost you?

Speaker 4:
[19:11] Okay. So let's see. So first of all, the biggest expense was taking my birds, my three parrots over.

Speaker 1:
[19:18] Oh, you have parrots.

Speaker 4:
[19:19] Yeah. I have three birds and they are 12, 13, and 11 now.

Speaker 1:
[19:26] Okay. And so there was no way you were going to keep them in the US. You were going to get, yeah, they were going to come with you.

Speaker 4:
[19:32] Oh, yeah. There's no way I was going to leave my birds behind. They are my children and I love them so deeply. So I knew like wherever I'm going, like they're coming with me. And it was so expensive. It was 1,600 for the United States side, plus the imports charge when we got to Germany, 500 euros, which would be something around 600 dollars. So 2,100.

Speaker 1:
[20:01] Okay. So you took your birds with you. What other costs were involved?

Speaker 4:
[20:05] So we did have to have the plane ticket because my husband and I left independently of each other. He left four months ahead of me so he could get our apartment ready. So there was the rent, which he covered on his own. It was 600 euros monthly at the time. And there was my plane ticket. I bought it a year and a half in advance. So that one was only 200, 300 dollars, which was really nice. I got to, I had to buy briefcases or luggage for my luggage. Those were 4 dollars at the Goodwill.

Speaker 1:
[20:44] 4 dollars? Nice.

Speaker 4:
[20:47] Our visas, we had to apply for them. And that was 14 euros, which is approximately 16 dollars. And for the visa that we applied to, which was because my husband and I are married, he's a US citizen, we need to prove that we are capable of taking care of ourselves for a year. At the time, the minimum that they required was 5,000 US dollars in your bank account. So we also had to save up that 5,000.

Speaker 1:
[21:16] How long did it take for you to save up all that money?

Speaker 4:
[21:20] I was 19 years old and I left at 23, so around four years.

Speaker 1:
[21:24] I imagine it was very emotional saying goodbye to your family.

Speaker 4:
[21:28] Oh, it was awful. It feels terrible because you don't know if this is the last time you're going to see them, if this is the last time you get to hug them. And in particular, I think that my dad is very stoic, but he's actually the one that cried when we hugged each other at the airport. And my mom has always been very tough, so she said, like, you go and show them that Mexicans aren't cowards. And I was like, that's my mom.

Speaker 1:
[22:00] So there was like an element of pride there. They were proud of you.

Speaker 4:
[22:05] I think my mom understood more than my dad, because she had also left her dad at around the same age to try to attain a better future for herself and her family. And I was doing the same thing. So she didn't see it as a lot of parents think, like, oh, you're throwing away the sacrifice that I made for you. But she understood, like, you're taking that sacrifice and expanding on it.

Speaker 1:
[22:31] In November 2017, Monsy stepped off the plane and into their new life in Germany.

Speaker 4:
[22:36] I couldn't breathe. I could not believe the fact that I was finally no longer illegal. I was no longer undocumented. I looked around me and everyone was so skinny, which was really strange for me, like, stepping into Germany. When the border officer just stamped my permit after asking me a few questions, I just, I was like, that's it. He's not going to arrest me. I was just allowed in. And I felt so much lighter than before. It was so insane. I made this drawing when I was 19 years old. And it's just a self-portrait of myself. And there's just this enormous black widow on my back. And that's how it felt to be undocumented to me all the time. So it was just like, that spider was in the United States, and I was so far away from it, and it was no longer on my back. That's the best way I can describe that.

Speaker 1:
[23:46] Well, what was it like for that first year? I imagine it was not an easy transition. Were you able to work initially?

Speaker 4:
[23:54] No, we weren't allowed to work for the entire first year because we were waiting for our Aufenthaltstitel, our residence permits, to be approved.

Speaker 1:
[24:03] Monsy and their husband had to make $5,000 they'd saved last for an entire year. That involved a lot of sacrifices.

Speaker 4:
[24:10] I just had to do without a good winter jacket, which doesn't sound like a lot of people who have not experienced the German winter.

Speaker 1:
[24:17] The winter in Germany. No, it's intense.

Speaker 4:
[24:20] Yeah. Buying gloves, buying good winter shoes, those were luxuries that we could not afford.

Speaker 1:
[24:28] I imagine you weren't eating out much or going out much.

Speaker 4:
[24:31] Oh, no. We did not eat out, period. There's this wonderful thing that we had learned through all of our years of survival in the United States. We knew how to make one meal last several days. We knew how to make three euros last us for days on end in terms of food. You weren't eating healthily and you definitely weren't getting all the nutrients that you need, but you were full. And that at least helped with the emotional aspects of it.

Speaker 1:
[25:01] Like what was one of your go-to meals?

Speaker 4:
[25:04] So my husband made this thing called kosheri, which is...

Speaker 1:
[25:08] Oh, I love kosheri. It's like an Egyptian dish. Yes.

Speaker 4:
[25:12] It's really, really tasty.

Speaker 1:
[25:13] It's like my favorite dish.

Speaker 4:
[25:14] Yes. And it's great. And it's super like filling, right? You can make an entire pot of it and keep eating from it, and it's very filling.

Speaker 1:
[25:23] I guess for people who don't know, it's lentils, rice, and pasta basically.

Speaker 4:
[25:27] Yes. So it keeps you full, it gives you the energy that you need, but you don't have to spend a lot of money. You buy like a bag of rice, a big bag of noodles, and then you're good to go for a week.

Speaker 1:
[25:40] That is one of my go-to meals too. Did you know many other people in Germany or even outside of Germany who had done something similar as you who left the US?

Speaker 4:
[25:50] Not at all. I really thought that I was the only idiot putting themselves through this absolute struggle. I must be the first person to ever wave goodbye to the Statue of Liberty. This is insane. And I thought, oh, man, was it truly a bad choice? I was starting to, once a year of not getting our visa approved had continued, I was like, oh my god, we're running out of funds. So I started looking online for other people who understood what I was going through, and then I found, at the time, it was called The Parted Dreamers. It was a Facebook page with 34 members.

Speaker 1:
[26:32] And those were folks who had also left the US?

Speaker 4:
[26:34] No, they were people who were considering it, and the two people who had left were Jason and Tahita. They are the other two co-founders of Onward, and they were working together with this Facebook page that they had created to provide emotional support to people who wanted to leave. And once I found it, I told them, I want to help in whatever way I can.

Speaker 1:
[26:57] Onward is a group that supports undocumented people in the US as they decide whether to leave the country. Monsy told us that after the 2024 election, the group quadrupled in size. Today, it's a big part of Monsy's life. They often do one-on-one consultations with people considering leaving. When they're not volunteering with Onward, Monsy spends their time working and studying.

Speaker 4:
[27:18] So I'm doing my apprenticeship in medicine, which essentially means like I get to do part-time at the hospital and part-time in school. I'm very well financially stable, my husband and I. We earn enough to have not like a luxurious living, but a stable living, which is such a wonderful thing to have. The security of it is so incredible. I have healed so much. I have had to really unlearn the anxiety, the survival mode, the fight or flight mode that I was constantly living in because I had to constantly be on the lookout for danger. Living without all of that, you really start to prioritize different things in life. You start seeing life so much differently. So I'm just so grateful now for the opportunities that I have.

Speaker 1:
[28:21] And you were mentioning earlier that you have health insurance. You have vacation, I imagine.

Speaker 4:
[28:27] I do. It's so wonderful. Okay. So I didn't go to the doctor the entire time that I was in the United States. It was like... Really? Yeah. In our community, you really only go if you're like dying. And usually by that point, it's too late. So it just was not something we did. It was unaffordable. Here, I've had... I've needed like minor operations. I go into the doctor so that I can be written sick if I'm sick. And then I get like a week off and it's all paid. And I've never paid for anything. And then the paid vacations, I get 28 days paid vacation, legally required per year.

Speaker 1:
[29:10] That's like a month.

Speaker 4:
[29:12] Yeah. And this was even when I was doing jobs, like just working as a barista, like in the United States, I was working three jobs. I had no days off. I had no insurance, no vacation and no sleep. And I was barely getting by. Here I work one job. Wow.

Speaker 1:
[29:36] So how much, if you feel comfortable answering, how much money do you currently make in Germany?

Speaker 4:
[29:41] Let me think. So with this apprenticeship, I make from 15 to 20,000 euros per year here, depending on which part of how much overtime I do. That doesn't sound like a lot, but the quality of living with that amount, for me, it's perfect because I still go on vacation. All of my health insurance is covered. We have more than enough things. We have more than enough for food and bills. With our incomes combined, we make more than enough money to sustain ourselves. And the cost of living is also lower in Germany.

Speaker 1:
[30:28] I'm still thinking about that scene of you being at the airport, saying goodbye to your immediate family. Was that the last time that you saw them?

Speaker 4:
[30:38] Yes, in person. Yeah, and I think saying bye to my siblings was also just so difficult. They were so little that my little brother was eight years old. And because my mom hadn't really been available to take care of the younger, my younger siblings, I was essentially the one who had raised him. And I just kept telling him, like, hey, like, I am leaving. Like, you're not going to see me for a long time. I need you to know that. And I knew he didn't understand what that meant. Because I didn't understand what that meant when I was his age. But I actually recently wrote him. He asked me if I could write him a letter for his class about how proud I am of him and what it's like to see him grow up, right? And it really healed a part of me to be able to write that for him. And I think it also helped him as well, because he's actually a US citizen. So he doesn't have to struggle with the things that I had to struggle with. And perhaps my decision was harder for him to understand being so young. But I think the letter helped him understand that it wasn't because of him. It was something that had to be done so that I could also start having a life of my own.

Speaker 1:
[32:16] I'll admit that going into the story, I was expecting to hear a sense of defeat from people like Monsy and Javi. They both did all the quote unquote right things, working hard in school, staying out of trouble, staying close to family. But it still wasn't enough to feel secure here. And I could hear their grief and anger. But for Monsy, leaving didn't just mean loss. It made room for a life they actually want. And for Javi, the idea of leaving feels less like giving up and more like finally getting a chance to begin. Leaving what you know is costly. And there's no guarantee it works out. But what I heard from both of them is that this isn't really a question of risk. It's a question of what kind of life they can live. And at a certain point, staying starts to feel like the bigger gamble. All right. That is all for our show this week. Monsy and their friends at Onward have put together a toolkit for people considering leaving the US. You can find a link to that in our show notes and on the web. Michael Foote hosts the podcast Brief Recess, a legal podcast, and you can find him talking about all things immigration on TikTok. And if you have a story to share about how the immigration crackdown is impacting your finances, maybe you're saving up in case a loved one is detained, or you've closed your business amid raids, call in and tell us about it at 347-Ring-Tiu. And if you're not already following our new social media accounts, check us out at This Is Uncomfortable pod on Instagram and on TikTok. This episode was lead produced by Alice Wilder, and I'm your host, Reema Khrais. Zoe Saunders is our senior producer, our intern is Yiyun Chen, audio engineering by Drew Jostad. Special thanks this week to Elizabeth Troval. Bridget Bodnar is Marketplace's director of podcasts, Marketplace's chief content officer is Joanne Griffith, Neil Scarborough is vice president and general manager of Marketplace, and our theme music is by Wonderly. All right, I'll catch you all next week.

Speaker 5:
[34:17] Thank you. I'm David Brown Caccio, Special Correspondent for Marketplace, and an avid reader of the Marketplace Newsletter, not that I'm partial. Every Friday Marketplace curates must read stories from the week and delivers explainers right to your inbox. So if you want the latest from me and our team of award-winning journalists, head over to marketplace.org/newsletters and sign up today.