transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:01] Hey, y'all, it's Lorna Rosa with the latest with Lorna Rosa on Black Effect. And I cannot wait to see you guys at the 4th Annual Black Effect Podcast Festival. We are coming back to Atlanta, Georgia on Saturday, April 25th at Pullman Yards. And it's hosted by me, alongside DJ Envy and Charlamagne tha God. We got Drink Chance with Noriega and DJ FM. We got Keep It Positive Sweetie with my girl, Crystal Renee Haislett. We got Reality with the King with my guy, then my brother, Carlos King. And y'all know he does reality commentary like nobody can. Now we also have Don't Call Me White Girl, the podcast. I love Mona and Club 520 Podcasts, along with the Grits and Eggs Podcast. So this lineup, stacked, baby. You're also gonna want to check out the panels that we have lined up too, featuring Kev On Stage, Tika Sumter, and John-Hulk Bryant, just to name a few. Of course, it's way bigger than Podcasts. We're bringing the Black Effect Marketplace with Black-owned businesses, plus the food truck court to keep you fed while you visit us, okay? Listen, you don't want to miss this. Tap in and grab your ticket now at blackeffect.com/podcastfestival.

Speaker 2:
[01:27] Welcome to the Gangster Chronicles podcast, the production of iHeart Radio and Black Effect Podcast Network. Make sure you download the iHeart app and subscribe to the Gangster Chronicles. For my Apple users, hit the purple mic on your front screen. Subscribe to the Gangster Chronicles and leave a five-star rating and comment. Welcome to another episode of the Gangster Chronicles podcast. And I'm gonna address something just real quick so everybody stop asking me. Yes, MC-8 is still a part of the show. MC-8 is very sick right now. So he asks you to keep him in your prayers. Now, it's not life or death sick. Just because somebody is sick don't mean that they're on their deathbed all the time. But he's not feeling well right now. So he will be returning next week. But today, I got a guy I've been trying to get on the show, man, for about maybe the last five years, man. Mr. Mopreme Shakur. How you doing, brother? Ooh, ooh!

Speaker 3:
[02:17] What's happening, Captain?

Speaker 2:
[02:18] Oh, man, same old thing, man.

Speaker 3:
[02:20] And best wishes get well soon when they get MC-8.

Speaker 2:
[02:25] Yeah, for sure, for sure. I miss my boy, man. Yeah. You know, you don't deal with somebody for five years, you become like, that's my brother, man. That's my dog right there.

Speaker 3:
[02:32] Yeah, I can dig it.

Speaker 2:
[02:33] That's my dog, man. You know, I want to start off with this, as a lot of people don't know. You was actually on one of the biggest R&B records in the world at the time. A lot of people don't know that. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3:
[02:47] I've been in the game for many moons, many moons, my brother.

Speaker 2:
[02:51] Many moons? You from the Bay?

Speaker 3:
[02:53] Nah, I'm from South Side, Jamaica, Queens, New York. Shout out to South Side, Queens. But I came up in the Bay Area. Me and Pac came up in the Bay Area, professionally. Both got on professionally in the Bay Area. So we always get him that respect.

Speaker 2:
[03:09] You know, was y'all early on in the Bay, was y'all running with Ray Love and them dudes?

Speaker 3:
[03:13] Absolutely.

Speaker 2:
[03:14] Shout out to the homie Ray Love, man, that's my guy right there, man.

Speaker 3:
[03:16] My man, called me back. But yeah, I was like the first one amongst our little crew that was on a big record.

Speaker 2:
[03:27] And that wasn't just a little, that was a really big record, man. That record was like top five across the country.

Speaker 3:
[03:33] It's a classic, it's a gift that keeps on giving. It was a blessing, you know? And then Pac came in the game right after me, soon after me, about a year later.

Speaker 2:
[03:45] So you remember him when he first started seeing them? Oh yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 3:
[03:50] Pac was in Strictly Dope with Ray Love and DJ Diz. Shout out to Diz. And you know, there was also, Human Ray was also doing poetry classes with Laila Steinberg. And she hooked him up with Atron and Atron was managing digital. They gave Pac a shot. Shock gave Pac an audition. They gave Pac audition for him, everything. And Shock's infinite wisdom. He agreed to put Pac on.

Speaker 2:
[04:19] Yeah, rest in peace, Shock. He's one of the most brilliant producers ever. I don't think he, like a lot of things in music, man, I think his genius gets overlooked at times.

Speaker 3:
[04:29] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[04:30] Because he's, I think, him and DJ Quick are probably the best, like, pure producers, you know, as far as just dudes knowing how to go in the studio and do everything, you know, every instrument, and they just pick up an instrument and they're good at it, and that's just them.

Speaker 3:
[04:43] Yeah, and Shock was, actually, went to school. You know, he had training down there in Tampa, Florida, music school.

Speaker 2:
[04:50] Wow.

Speaker 3:
[04:51] So it came from a real place.

Speaker 2:
[04:53] He was definitely a musical dude. Man, let's talk about your lineage, man. Your father, man, a legendary legend, you know, Mutulu Shakur. Man, how was it growing up in that type of, you know, you grew up in blackness, man, with, like, you know, just black excellence?

Speaker 3:
[05:11] My father passed away in 2023. Rest in peace, Dr. Mutulu Shakur, a legend, just recently, academic, Dr. Kelly. Dr. DG. Kelly said that Mutulu was one of the top five most important civil rights leaders of the era.

Speaker 2:
[05:30] I would have to agree.

Speaker 3:
[05:31] You know, and made me proud. But, you know, as a kid, you know, we actually liked our father, you know what I mean? My pops was the cool dad, and Mutulu loved the kids, so he had a relationship with the kids. All the kids are coming up. And, but we didn't know to what degree, how much he was the man. I explained, you know, I talk about a lot of it in my book, my new memoir that dropped, This Thug's Life.

Speaker 2:
[05:57] This Thug's Life, I was gonna go into it. You gotta, I like the way it starts off.

Speaker 3:
[06:01] Thanks, man.

Speaker 2:
[06:02] I like the way it starts off. I'm trying to make sure I have a phrase right. I'm a nigger, but not your.

Speaker 3:
[06:08] Please, please tell him. I'm a nigger, but I ain't your nigger for the show.

Speaker 2:
[06:16] Exactly, exactly. How long, when did you start writing that? Cause it seems like a memoir more than anything else.

Speaker 3:
[06:22] Yeah, it is a memoir. It is a memoir.

Speaker 2:
[06:24] It's a memoir.

Speaker 3:
[06:25] And you know, I started, you know, I had got locked up for a little scared bit. And while I was sitting there thinking about myself, I also was thinking about the impact we was having on the shit that we had done, you know? So I started, got my first 80 pages, and over the years, stop, start, stop, start, trying to find the right co-writer to help me. Cause this is my first book. You know, I've been writing music half my life, first time with a book. So I needed some help. I was trying to find a writer, all these music dudes. And my wife, Talia, my co-writer, she tried her hand at it during the pandemic. And it started clicking. So then we were able to push through and finish it. It's very difficult.

Speaker 2:
[07:18] Yeah, it is. You know, writing a book is a very arduous task.

Speaker 3:
[07:21] People have no idea. Especially a book like this, when it's your whole life, then you gotta pick what stories you're gonna tell, what you're gonna talk about, what you're not gonna talk about, who not to forget. You know, just a whole bunch of little things that, you know, it's hard.

Speaker 2:
[07:38] Yeah, your life was so impactful, man. And just, you know, all the things that you want. I would say that's an amazing life, man. You know, your father is one of the, like you said, one of the biggest black civil rights leaders ever, right? And your brother, you know, the Black Elvis, as, you know, just kind of just ascended time. You feel what I'm saying? It's like every generation is a Tupac fan. I got a son that's 21 years old, love Tupac.

Speaker 3:
[08:07] My man.

Speaker 2:
[08:07] You know what I'm saying? Love Tupac, like everybody. My pops, shout out to my pops, butch. My pops, man, I don't know his real name, he's been 75 for everybody. I know he's up in his 80s now, man.

Speaker 3:
[08:19] What's your son's name?

Speaker 2:
[08:20] Love Tupac, Chris Steele. Chris.

Speaker 3:
[08:22] Chris. Shout out to Chris, too. Much appreciated, much love.

Speaker 2:
[08:26] And my pops, man, love. Like, you go, Ohio, right? You go to the crib, man, he pumping all the stuff and the thing, man. I introduced him to Bigg Psych, Rest In Peace. I introduced him to Bigg Psych. He thought it was the biggest thing ever, man. He thought it was the biggest thing ever, man. But I want to touch down on all that, man, on all of the, one of the best albums ever, man, the Thug Life album, the first Thug Life. Why didn't we get another Thug Life album?

Speaker 3:
[08:53] Man, life got in the way. Simply put, life got in the way. So much life started happening. We were unable, we barely got to that point where we were able to put an album out. That record, we worked on longer than any other of Pac's projects. We worked on that like two years, two and a half years. It was coming to a point where the label wasn't accepting a lot of the records Pac was turning in. We was turning in a lot of cop killing and you know, we from the Keep It Real generation, we was keeping it real, reality rap. But he's like, Mo, I need you to help me put together an album that's going to be acceptable to the labels or this shit ain't going to come out. I was like, you know, I was like, okay. So I, you know, I had to trim it down, trim it down, trim it down, you know, something that was palatable to the labels so we could keep getting this money.

Speaker 2:
[10:00] And I'm going to tell you what, I had the pleasure, man, of hearing a few of them. So I heard a song that had Spice One on it.

Speaker 3:
[10:06] Yeah. But they took out the Spice One.

Speaker 2:
[10:09] That song was so hard, man. That song was so hard, man. And y'all had some joints on there, man. And I always wonder why it wasn't another one.

Speaker 3:
[10:17] Yeah, man. I mean, those songs end up getting used on a lot of posthumous records, you know, that they really should have been under the Thug Life banner. But, you know, that was 94. Dude, we finally got the album out. Barely got the album out in 94. Then Pac gets robbed, shot, go to jail. You know what I mean? And, you know, Pac was key. You know what I mean? So, yeah, that's what I mean by life.

Speaker 2:
[10:47] As a big bro, what was going through your head when all this stuff was going on, man? Like, what was your mind state like?

Speaker 3:
[10:54] During which?

Speaker 2:
[10:55] Like, at the time, everything, you know, Pac goes through the shoot. He goes through all these different changes.

Speaker 3:
[11:01] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[11:02] And I'm pretty sure you was his number one advisor.

Speaker 3:
[11:05] Yeah. I mean, I was aware of how strong Pac was, but I was like, OK. I'm like, we can handle all this. This is a lot we got going on here. You know, we got a lot we got going on. We had two careers plus all the legal shit. And, you know, I was just worried a little. I was just worried about the amount of things that we had to deal with. We had been dealing with heavy shit. But, you know, all at once, all them things was having him at once. Plus, he had to heal up for being shot. He had to go to court. He had to go to prison. You know what I mean? It was a lot. But, you know, he stayed strong.

Speaker 2:
[11:48] Well, you know, y'all almost was born in the eye of the storm, though.

Speaker 3:
[11:53] Yes, sir.

Speaker 2:
[11:54] I think y'all was kind of built for living in tumultuous times. You feel what I'm saying? Because all the stuff you went to, I remember, I was a little kid, man. I remember seeing a big man huntin. They had for, you know, for your dad, right, right? And I remember my dad was saying, you know, my dad was always one of them dudes that was in tune with stuff. And he was saying, man, I don't think he did all the stuff that they're saying. He said, I think they're trying to, you know, assassinate their brother.

Speaker 3:
[12:18] That was one of our worries when he was on the run. You know, it was word that he was talking about, he wasn't going to be taken alive. You know, talk like that. And we was really worried about his survival. I, you know, and not only that, Asada was free too. Auntie Asada was free, considered a fugitive at the time as well. So, super intense, super intense. She took all eyes on Mutulu for show, you know. And he was on the run for, you know, like five, six years. We get ready to try to do a television show about, because it's a true story of me and Pac's life. We are on the precipice of black history and black music history with no exaggeration.

Speaker 2:
[13:15] Yeah, it really, like you couldn't put this together, man. You guys, life sounds like a movie epic. Like it's almost like if you told somebody, if somebody would have came to you, man, at 10 years old and said, hey, man, this is what the next 50, 60 years gonna look like, you'd be like, man, you're out of your mind.

Speaker 3:
[13:32] Yeah, man, but, you know, God is good. And I'm still here. I done lost a lot of the giants from the family, you know, and it's on me to kind of like preserve our story.

Speaker 2:
[13:48] It's very important.

Speaker 3:
[13:49] You know this town, bruh, bruh. You know this town, you know. So that's why the book was important, This Thug's Life. You know, people always ask about the family. They want to know about how me and Parker's brother, that's what I would get all the time. Parker got no brother. You ain't Parker, you ain't no Parker's brother. You know, man, get out of here, man. Y'all don't even know what y'all talking about. Y'all really, you know, they really didn't, they had to get to know him and get to know us and where we was coming from, you know.

Speaker 2:
[14:17] Well, you know, in the black community, man, we don't do the step brother thing or the half brother thing, we brothers.

Speaker 3:
[14:22] Talk to them.

Speaker 2:
[14:23] You know what I'm saying? We just don't do that because, you know, if your mom was with my pops, we brothers.

Speaker 3:
[14:29] Yeah, dig that.

Speaker 2:
[14:30] You know what I'm saying? And you're my sister, you know what I'm saying? That's how it is, you know, family is way much more than blood, as you know. As you know, coming up in the Black Panther era, I really think that we miss those type of movements right now. Do you think in 2026, this era needs another Black Panther movement?

Speaker 3:
[14:54] I think we need a movement that's, right now, at this moment, we need a movement that's all-inclusive, because we all kind of in the same boat.

Speaker 2:
[15:06] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[15:07] You know what I'm saying? We all kind of, you know, we each group has their own individual issue. But right now, we all in the same boat, and there's strength in numbers. So, you know, there needs to be a reset. There needs to be a reset. I've been, you know, especially now, I've been reflecting on, you know, what my family went through. You know what I mean? All their struggles, the Feinies, Saddam, Mutulu, Kuhl, you know, they was in it for real. And I keep saying that the level of commitment is way less now than it was then. Way less now. The level of commitment they had, all the movements, all the groups, there was the anti-war movement as well, different groups working together. You know, that's the type of thing we need right now. That type of thing, you know, sticking together. The people, we, because, you know, we from community organizers, this is about the people.

Speaker 2:
[16:11] Exactly. And you talk about commitment, man. They were very commitment, just when you think about the phrase, and a lot of people don't know where that comes from, ride or die. You know, that's really prolific when you think about it. Like, man, we going out, like, you know, no matter what has to happen.

Speaker 3:
[16:28] Yeah. Everybody has a limit. Everybody has a limit. And, you know, it's a sad state of affairs. It's a sad state of affairs. But, you know, I'm a positive person. I try to stay positive, stay positive and progressive. You know, the good thing is that everybody see what's going on, and nobody's cool with it. That's something that we all got in common right now.

Speaker 2:
[16:51] Oh, exactly.

Speaker 3:
[16:52] Nobody cool with it. You know, the like minded people, you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2:
[16:56] Exactly. I think nowadays more so than anything else, more so, you know, we talk about racism, systemic racism and everything like that. I think right now, it's the have and the have nots. The have nots because if you look at it, if you go to like Omaha, Nebraska, and you see the trailer parks, you got white people living in the property, right? You have black people living in the property. You have Hispanic people living in the property. That kind of puts us all in the same boat. And like you said, there is strength in numbers. I would like to see more unity because at the end of the day, we are human beings.

Speaker 3:
[17:30] And that's what Thug Life was about. That is what Thug Life was intended to do. We put our shit under the Thug Life banner. That way we could communicate with everybody of all the different types of peoples because the common denominator is economics. Common denominator is economics, no matter what region you may be from. That's why our shit is international. You know what I mean? One album, but it was a movement. People understood what Pac was trying to do. We were trying to unite the poor in prison, political prison, impoverished, you know what I mean? The poor people, which is often neglected, especially in First World Nations. So, you know, we need to stick together. That was the goal of that.

Speaker 2:
[18:24] You talk about international, man. I'm going to tell you a story. We was by the texture on the other day.

Speaker 3:
[18:29] Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[18:31] 2006, I believe it was. 2006 or 2007, three of us were supposed to be going to Dubai. I don't know how they was messing around. There was a lot of games being played. I don't know why me and Bigg Steele got on that plane. I'm glad we did though. But we shouldn't have got on that plane. Knowing the music business, you ain't got your deposit together. You ain't got this. All you got is the plane to Utah. I said, I ain't ever been to Dubai before. Eff it, let's go. You know what I mean? So we get over there, man, and I see the ladies, man. They got like the Quran written on their face. It's a different place. You go over there, man. If you spitting the ground over there, you going to jail. So we go over there, man, and we have a girl that works for the promoter. And she's taking us to some place. You know, you go do a tour, they take you to a different place. We go to a club, right? So we in a club, man. These sheeps pull us over. One come this side, one come this side, one in the back of us. They pull over. I'm like, oh my God, man, what's about to go on? They got big Mac-11s on there. They got the big guns, right? So we out there, man, they like, what are you guys going? And I'm like, man, we going here. We here for this. You know, we here for this right here. And this one dude is looking at, I guess he's the commander. He's looking at the site like this. And he just say, picture me rolling in the 500 bins. I have no love for these cowards. There's no need to be friends. Right there, man, the cop said this is a dude over, we in the Middle East, man. He's, he's get the kick and, picture me rolling, right? Then he say, I got keys coming from overseas. Next thing you know, man, it's like the whole ice just broke. You know what I'm saying? Like right there, it was cool. And they wound up giving us an escort to the thing, man. And they gave us some game. They said, you know, all we see, it's not really about the killer, but all we see is that y'all in the car with one of our women. We want to know what y'all intention is. Like what are y'all doing right there, right? And she worked for the thing. We explained it, like nothing going on like that. She's our guide, why she out here, man. And that night I understood the magnitude, man, stuff that y'all was talking about, right? Because it gave us safe passage on the other side of the world. Yeah, man. And otherwise could have been an all bad situation.

Speaker 3:
[20:41] Yeah, yeah, I remember that because Psych told me about it and said, yeah, I'm down, you know, give me my deposit. This is real, I ain't ever been to the Middle East before and time was winding down. I'm like, you know, Psych said, come on, come on, come on, you're about ready to go. I was like, yeah, as soon as I get my deposit, if it ain't here by Friday, I'm leaving town.

Speaker 2:
[21:04] We ain't have our, I don't want to say you didn't miss nothing, man, because I appreciate it more than I do, because that was really, all them times, me and Psych was real good friends. Like, that was Tyrus, my dog, man. Like, I love that dude, you know how you talk, me and his voice is similar. He'd call me in the morning, Big Steele, wake up, man. What you doing? And we got to do that, man, and I really wish you could have been there, man, but it was a crazy trip, because the dude, when we got to that promoter, man, was on some bullshit. He took our passports, and I thought he wanted to make copies of them or something. That's the joker kept our passport, because he didn't want nobody else to book us out there. He didn't want us to go nowhere else, so they had to go through him. Because these people, man, when we went out there, and there was so many people mad, you wasn't there, because he had your face on the flyer. There was a picture of the flyer, everybody was like, where is Mopreme at? Where is Mopreme at? I said, man, I started seeing him talk to the site, man.

Speaker 3:
[21:57] Yeah, he didn't, I didn't get my deposit, so I went to Miami.

Speaker 2:
[22:02] It's business.

Speaker 3:
[22:03] I had just got married and the shit, me and my wife was in Miami, I'm chilling. And he's like, the site called me like, cuz, where you at, cuz? I'm like, I'm in Miami. Cuz, can you just head to the airport and-

Speaker 2:
[22:15] Yeah, cuz he was on his head, man, about that. And it wasn't his fault. We told the dude, I said, man, he was so worried about us robbing him that he didn't take care of business. And I had to tell him, I think that was the first concert he ever promoted. I said, listen, man, when you're dealing with artists, man, you gotta pay the deposit. We come from way the other side of the world. We don't know if you'll come over here. We don't even know if you're a real promoter.

Speaker 3:
[22:38] And you said that was like, that was like 06, 07, right?

Speaker 2:
[22:42] Yeah, 06, 07.

Speaker 3:
[22:43] Well, you can still fly comfortably with just your license. I'm in Miami, I ain't even got my passport. I couldn't have came if I wanted to, you know what I mean? I didn't have my passport.

Speaker 2:
[22:54] So you didn't have no passport then?

Speaker 3:
[22:55] And I'm in Miami, I mean, Miami International, yeah. It's possible it could have happened. But, I don't be, you know, I don't be gonna know it. You got to pay me, bruh.

Speaker 2:
[23:05] You gotta have the money, man. The thing was, as soon as we got there, he straightened us out, man. But it was so many people mad. I thought them people was gonna tear some stuff up with this short, man.

Speaker 3:
[23:14] Yeah, man, this Shakur shit, boy. I mean, you can't, you know, I'm a humble man.

Speaker 2:
[23:18] We had a bunch of stuff, man. We had another thing, another situation, man. This dude in England wanted to book us. He wanted to book. You in sight, right? We had it set up. So we learned from that first time, we said we ain't going nowhere, man. You know, they got that moolah, you know? Man, them people tore that club up out there, man.

Speaker 3:
[23:37] In England?

Speaker 2:
[23:38] Yeah, England. Man, it was a thing for Coca-Cola. They tore that club up.

Speaker 3:
[23:41] Why?

Speaker 2:
[23:42] Because nobody came. Promoter not handling business.

Speaker 3:
[23:46] Oh, oh, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[23:48] I don't even know if that one ever made it on your radar because, see, what happened was I think Coca-Cola gave this dude X amount of dollars because he said he can hook it up. And he got to playing with the money, you know what I mean, and trying to play with the games with the money and stuff. Like, no, dude, you know what I mean? I said, no, we won't be there. He wanted to get carried up out of there, man, but. So this book, man, This Thug's Life, man, it sounds like it was a labor of love written by you and your wife.

Speaker 3:
[24:20] We did the best job we could. It's 300 pages, plus we got like 24 pictures, some never before seen pop pictures in there, some Thug life pictures, family, Bigg Mutulu, Doc up in there. I try to tell the whole story because somebody, you might meet somebody, I say, oh yeah, you was on Feel's Good, that, oh yeah. And know the rest of the story. And then somebody's like, wait, you Mutulu's son? You Mutulu's son? Yeah, yeah, you know, and people slowly would put it together over the years. This piece, this book, This Thug's Life, you know, it kind of lays it out, it's my story, you know what I mean? And my family.

Speaker 2:
[25:07] It's your story because you have a very prolific career as well. You know, one of the things I've always wanted to ask, man, I work, me and DJ Bobcat.

Speaker 3:
[25:16] Ha, shout out to Bobcat.

Speaker 2:
[25:18] You know, Bob is like my big bro, like I don't know Bob since like the 80s.

Speaker 3:
[25:21] Oh yeah?

Speaker 2:
[25:22] Since I first came to California, Bob is my man, man.

Speaker 3:
[25:26] Good people.

Speaker 2:
[25:27] And my other partner, I don't know if you know Deidon.

Speaker 3:
[25:30] Of course I do.

Speaker 2:
[25:31] Yeah, Deidon, right? Me and Deidon always talk when he say, man, Bob messed up, man, Bob could have had Tupac, he could have had this and that, he was one of the first people to talk to him. He said Bob could have had all that had messed up. He used to stand, set up meetings with Pac and stand him up, just get caught up in other stuff and wouldn't show up, man, because you never know, right? Coming up during that era, man, did you foresee the stuff was gonna get as big as it was?

Speaker 3:
[25:59] No, but I knew we was working hard and I knew we had a lot of opportunities, so we were just trying to take advantage of the opportunities. Pac had a chance to get in the movie, n***a, get in that movie, you know? You got a chance to get a record deal, get that deal, perform, n***a, you know, that's how Pac was looking at it, because he had, you know, he was a new young adult, and you know, played around with the drug game as a teen, so he looked at the game as the sack. You n***a, you got a song, you got a sack. You got an album, you got a sack. You in a movie, that's another sack. Get them sacks.

Speaker 2:
[26:35] Get to the money.

Speaker 3:
[26:37] You dig? I mean, Bob, though, and D-Done, D-Skills, shout out to D-Skills. D-Skills was kicking it with my pops when he was on the run.

Speaker 2:
[26:51] Is that right?

Speaker 3:
[26:52] Yeah. My pops was on the run out here in LA with the other, you know, brothers, brothers, you know, Brother Watan and D-Done, and they, you know, they kind of held Mutulu down when he was on the run out here, so me and D-Done go way back.

Speaker 2:
[27:04] When was the last time you talked to D-Done?

Speaker 3:
[27:06] Was it yesterday?

Speaker 2:
[27:07] Yesterday?

Speaker 3:
[27:07] Wait, yesterday? We talked every day.

Speaker 2:
[27:11] I should have called that fool right now and say, man, what you doing?

Speaker 3:
[27:14] And Bob, he's the one that hooked Pop up with Bob and started him, you know, Bob got in the first early songs with Pop and then, you know, but Bob was in the game for all of us. You know, he was LL.

Speaker 2:
[27:27] Oh yeah, Bob. I'm bad. Bob don't do stuff like that.

Speaker 3:
[27:30] Mama said, knock you out.

Speaker 2:
[27:32] I got an understanding of Bob, man, because I don't know Bob now for, I don't want to say for 20 plus, like a long 20, right? And I used to get mad at Bob, because he had set some up for one come, but Bob was extremely busy, especially back then he had so much stuff going on, right? He would kind of over commit sometimes, and there'd be times now, man, that where I might not hear from Bob for six months, then he'd call you out the blue. Nigga, I got the most incredible idea. I need to come to the house now, you know what I'm saying? And I love Bob, man, shout out to DJ Bobcat, man. But man, you know, going back then, man, was it every time, man, that you was like, had scared, man, was you ever scared for it, with all the stuff that was going on?

Speaker 3:
[28:17] Yeah. But we had to suppress that fear because we lived with it daily. Asada was still on FBI's Tim Most Wanted, the highest female on FBI's Civil War Water List at that time. Mutulu had been captured, he was in prison, and we out on the street, you know.

Speaker 2:
[28:39] Because I'm pretty sure y'all was on the surveillance.

Speaker 3:
[28:42] Absolutely. So we, you know, we wasn't going to let that, you know, confine us to our creativity. You know what I mean? It was like, they already killed a whole bunch of us. They already imprisoned a whole bunch of us. They can't imprison our spirit, you know. We ain't doing nothing wrong. You know, we doing, we're being creators, artists.

Speaker 2:
[29:11] You know. When the whole situation came up with, you know, Shug and Death Row and that opportunity presented itself, how did you feel about that person? Like, how did you feel?

Speaker 3:
[29:25] I was a little apprehensive, but I knew that how Pac felt about supporting black business. Shug was a black businessman. Shug and Dre, black businessmen, successful top label in the gang, still nobody sold more rap records than him. And Pac was a winner. He wanted to be with the winning team. And Pac had a good relationship with Shug. They did good business on Above the Rim. Shug paid him good for being on that soundtrack. And so they was cool on just a regular homie level. And it came to a point where Pac could use his help. We could use the power. So I understood that part of it, but I never thought it would go that way.

Speaker 2:
[30:24] One of the things, though, brother, speaking of black business, right, I hear people talk about Shug and Shug, like everybody else, we all got a bad and a good side, right? And plus, I think people forget sometimes when Shug was doing all that, he was in his early 30s. You know what I mean? He was a young dude, you know what I mean? Trying to figure stuff out, right? And we all make mistakes, but the one thing the common denominator is Shug paid people. I know a lot of people who got a lot of money with Shug, you know what I mean? I paid him, you know. I don't know if it's the same for everybody, right? But I don't know if it's the same for everybody, but from what I know, he did pay certain people. You feel what I'm saying? And I think, man, the record business period, man, whether you deal with black folks, white folks, Mexican, whatever, I think the record business is just a shady business period. The accounting doesn't make any sense, man. I think it's the biggest analogy I can have for it, man. It's almost like they have those check cashing places all around the neighborhood. To where people get behind on their bills, they can come get their check in advance. They give you like $200 towards your next check that's coming in, but you got to turn that check to them. You will never get out the hole. It's designed for you to never get out the hole, right?

Speaker 3:
[31:30] It's a dirty game, man. It's a dirty game.

Speaker 2:
[31:33] Because they're giving you 10 cent a record, and you got to pay everything back out that 10 cent while they sit over here making millions of dollars. You know what I mean? It's designed to win. That whole time, man, during the... They still haven't closed that case yet. Or is it murder?

Speaker 3:
[31:49] Yeah, they got a dude out there in Vegas sitting in jail now. Trial supposed to start August 10th.

Speaker 2:
[31:57] Do you think he will wind up being prosecuted for that?

Speaker 3:
[32:01] Boy, it's gonna be interesting. I don't know. Vegas is a tricky town. It's been 30 years. But a few of the dynamics have changed. There's a few new characters in the story. And we're gonna see if Las Vegas PD ignores those other characters. Or just focuses on the one character.

Speaker 2:
[32:30] You was around and you was deep in the mix. What do you think happened?

Speaker 3:
[32:38] Well, what they say in legal terms, I think there was several people in concert. They say there was in concert, there was several people that was in concert to make that happen. I don't think it was as random as some people might want you to think.

Speaker 2:
[32:54] Well, when you just think about the whole premise of it, we in Hollywood right now. Sunset Boulevard is a busy street. Stripping Vegas is way more busy, right? There's people from all over the world there. My biggest thing was I always wondered how somebody pulled that off when I was getting caught, and it's all that traffic. How do you get away from that?

Speaker 3:
[33:14] That's one thing, right? My thing was, this is Las Vegas, Nevada, all this money in this town, major hotels, we had to cross the street from each other, and there's no cameras, there's no traffic cameras, no cameras, nothing during the Mike Tyson fight. Yeah, anyway, but yeah, there's a lot of funniness going on, man.

Speaker 2:
[33:42] So you think it's probably bigger than what we think it is?

Speaker 3:
[33:45] Hell yeah, hell yeah.

Speaker 2:
[33:48] You know, because when you start piecing everything together, man, you know Mutulu Shakur steps on. Mama of Black Panther, all this other stuff that's going on, man, I'm pretty sure some people didn't like him. And y'all was very vocal about the shit. Ah, y'all filth, y'all didn't exactly suppress y'all emotions.

Speaker 3:
[34:06] Nah, nah, I'm from the Keep It Real generation.

Speaker 2:
[34:09] You know, y'all didn't exactly, you know, so I think, man, you know, even when I, you know, whenever you see life, loss of life is bad, man, you know, and I think we've got to this point in society, man, where we really kind of like have gotten numb to death, right? But it's a sad event, you don't have somebody around no more, you know what I mean? It's a sad occasion, because you're not gonna see that person again, not in this lifetime anyway. You know, you'll see them on the other side, but you won't see them in this life again, right?

Speaker 3:
[34:35] And, you know, and it pisses me off, because the type of dude Pac was, if you say, let's go fight, he was like, yeah, let's just go fight. You know, at the end of the day, it would, it could have been just that, you want to fight, let's get him up. I'm talking, yeah, I'm talking shit about you. You don't like it, let's go fight. But, nah, they, you know, Pac would call them cowards, you know what I mean? Sneak attack ass.

Speaker 2:
[35:02] So you think that was all just like a, you think that was all just like a misdirection?

Speaker 3:
[35:11] Well, dude wrote a book.

Speaker 2:
[35:15] Oh yeah, I saw he was on, he was going around on the podcast tour.

Speaker 3:
[35:19] That did podcast, he wrote a book, part of T. Okay, let's go, is that true or not? You know, now he's saying it ain't true. So we gotta figure out whether that shit is true or not. Because if it is true, things go one direction. You know what I mean? If he's lying about something, it goes in another direction.

Speaker 2:
[35:41] Well, I'm gonna tell you that one dude that they got, this is my theory, I don't know, you know, I'm not the police. But you know, you look at all this stuff that you find out about Puffy now.

Speaker 3:
[35:52] Oh yeah.

Speaker 2:
[35:52] Look at all this stuff that you find out, and it's like, you know, they was always pointing the finger at Sugar, that was a big bad gangster. Puffy was doing his share of stuff too.

Speaker 3:
[36:01] Please tell it, you know.

Speaker 2:
[36:03] No, he was doing his share of stuff too. He had money, he had motive, you know, so there's no, and then you hear about the bounty that was put out there, you know? Think it was a million dollars or something like that.

Speaker 3:
[36:14] Yeah, all that shit had to be investigated.

Speaker 2:
[36:16] All that shit had to be looked into. Why they got them locked up? They might as well.

Speaker 3:
[36:21] And we, you know, we're pursuing a wrongful death suit as well. We could not have gotten here, but for the rest of KBD. If he hadn't got arrested, we couldn't pursue nothing. You know, Recipes of Fanny had pursued a wrongful death suit, Orlando Anderson and all of them, and she lost. So, you know, there was no other place for us to go until now with new evidence and new, you know what I mean? I'm like, oh, this is what happened? Okay.

Speaker 2:
[36:57] So do you think, because KBD did a lot of hanging out with Puffy. He says it's on record. You know, they partied together and stuff like that, right?

Speaker 3:
[37:06] They did business together.

Speaker 2:
[37:08] You know, they did business together, man. I would really like to see, man, who's ever guilty of that atrocity, man, be called to the carpet, man, and be punished for what they did, you know what I mean? It was done in the dark, always come to light.

Speaker 3:
[37:23] Dig that.

Speaker 2:
[37:24] It was done in the darkness, always come to life. I think in order for us to move forward, sometimes we got to close certain doors, you know what I mean? Certain chapters got to be closed off. And I think that's one of them that definitely has to be closed off. Dad and him and Biggie had their thing. I don't know if Biggie deserved to lose his life or not though.

Speaker 3:
[37:41] Yeah. And I knew Bigg too. I knew Bigg too. You know, we were allies at one time. You know, life is complicated. Life is complicated. But I tell you this, Fannie Shakur helped out Ms. Wallace when she was having some hard times. They appeared together at one of the award shows. Mothers, black mothers, lost both of their sons. You know, people should learn something from that relationship.

Speaker 2:
[38:15] Oh, without a doubt.

Speaker 3:
[38:16] You know, but yeah, we gon see, brother. We gon see. There's child coming, there's the, you know, other things coming down the chute. We gon see, cause it's too blatant. It's so disrespectful. It's so blatant. You know what I mean? Okay, okay, killer. Okay, all right, we gon see.

Speaker 2:
[38:35] He went on a whole tour talking about that and now, oh, that wasn't me, you know what I'm saying? I had a couple, you know, my mind ain't what it used to be. You know, um.

Speaker 3:
[38:47] Oh, is a trip.

Speaker 2:
[38:49] I heard something, man. You know, I do my, when I get to talk to people like you, I get to ask questions, right, that I had in my mind for a long time. Now, there's a rumor, man, that during, that Pac had a picture, a photo shoot for one of his albums, right? And he didn't want to do the cover, but Tom Wiley kind of, you remember something, you remember that happening?

Speaker 3:
[39:10] For a cover?

Speaker 2:
[39:11] Yeah, for an album cover.

Speaker 3:
[39:14] Which one?

Speaker 2:
[39:15] I'll tell you right now. For me, against the world.

Speaker 3:
[39:20] Oh, what about it?

Speaker 2:
[39:21] The way he was dressed on there. Pac wanted to do something different.

Speaker 3:
[39:26] I'm sure he did. But Tom, the label, Interscope, was always trying to push Pac towards a general market type guy, you know what I mean? It's dispensive, introspective. I mean, Pac was all that, but the way they were trying to style him, and Pac was meeting him halfway. You know what I mean? He was meeting him halfway. He was meeting him halfway. Because, you know, we're doing business with him. So, you know, I'm going to give you this one. You got to pick your battles. And yeah, there's a couple of photo shoots that Pac wasn't the happiest with, but that's it.

Speaker 2:
[40:04] Did he wall out at the photo shoots?

Speaker 3:
[40:07] Oh, Pac would wall out if he was unhappy. Please believe it. Yes. Yes. Yes. Anybody that know, no, yeah, Pac was, he was, he's pure. His emotions were so pure. His heart was on his sleeve. Everything was, you know.

Speaker 2:
[40:25] You could tell through his music, he was a very, guy that was very in tune with his emotions.

Speaker 3:
[40:29] Yeah, he's passionate. He's a passionate dude. You know, if he said it, he meant it. He said it, I meant that shit.

Speaker 2:
[40:39] What would you say is the biggest, man, coming up just from your background, man, what would you, what do you think the biggest lesson is that you learned from your dad, man?

Speaker 3:
[40:51] The biggest?

Speaker 2:
[40:53] Well, one of them, you know, probably seven.

Speaker 3:
[40:55] He told me, one of the important ones was that, don't be nobody's sacrificial lamb. You know, you got to love yourself, too. And that was important, because you know, big, you know, I'm, because I think of myself as a big hearted person, big hearted people. You know, we go to extra ma for. We go all out. And then your ass sitting up in jail, you know what I'm saying? So that was something he told me to watch out for, because he's a big hearted person. He was a big hearted person, too. You know, I think that's the biggest lesson, hearted person, too. Yeah, that was important. He told me to be predictable. He said, be predictable, Mutulu. You say you're going to do something, you do it. Okay. But yeah.

Speaker 2:
[41:43] So being a man of your word, what kind of, and I know this is a crazy question, but how big of an impact on Pac's life you think he had?

Speaker 3:
[41:52] What?

Speaker 2:
[41:54] And I know that's a crazy, I just want to hear from you, man.

Speaker 3:
[41:57] So, so much impact. Pac had actually had a relationship with Mutulu. You know, there's a picture about when Pac was like four or five years old, he's on Mutulu's lap and one of my other cousins is on his lap and that was a young Mutulu. But from those early days, all the way to where we performed for Mutulu in Lompoc Federal Prison, there was a relationship. You know, and Pac respected strength and the fight and Mutulu was fighting and fighting for the people. And you know, we had lost a lot of uncles, either passed away or locked up forever. And when he had finally got caught, you know, he was like, fuck. You know, but he wasn't dead. So, you know, it was a catch-22. At least we could still have a relationship with him, even though he was in prison.

Speaker 2:
[42:58] Did you talk to your dad in detail about his parents, about his upbringing?

Speaker 3:
[43:02] In detail? No, not in detail.

Speaker 2:
[43:05] Do you know, was there any moment in particular that shaped him into becoming who he became?

Speaker 3:
[43:14] Well, my grandmother, his mother, DP Porter, she went blind at age 25 from glaucoma. So, Mutulu had been growing up trying to take care of his mother. As a teen in the early 20s, and as a young man trying to take care of his blind mother, and look out for her in the hood, and make sure she got all the social services that she could get. You know, going through that process was frustrating, aggravating, and I think that pushed him to be more impactful in the community, and tried to, and pushed him to end up being a doctor. He was an acupunctur doctor as well. So, I think-

Speaker 2:
[44:05] A lot of people didn't know that he was a real doctor.

Speaker 3:
[44:07] Absolutely, he studied in Montreal, he studied in China, and he ended up getting certified in California. And then took it back to New York and practiced at the Lincoln Detox Center, Detoxification Center, detoxing addicts from heroin and what's the other shit they use? Methadone.

Speaker 2:
[44:29] Methadone, so all through acupuncture?

Speaker 3:
[44:33] Yeah, he was trying to, they were trying to get the patients off of the methadone. They called it Liquid Handcuffs, you know. And it was backed by the Rockefellers. So when Mutulu started finding ways that they didn't have to use their product, it became a problem.

Speaker 2:
[44:49] Oh yeah, all that stuff, because you think about it right now, it's more money, and I talked about this, I think, last episode, there is more money in maintenance than there is in the cure. So if I can keep you on something, you know, rather than, because all of these, to me, is just switching drugs. It's like, okay, you're not going to take this no more. The difference is, you're not going to, you know, meet your plug or whatever on the corner somewhere. You're going to the Kaiser, to the pharmacy, or the CVS to pick up your prescription.

Speaker 3:
[45:19] Yeah, my father actually developed a acupuncture program specifically for it that was successful. It was the inner ear method that he kind of was at the forefront in this type of help, you know? And he was ahead of his time. The things that they were doing was ahead of their time. They were, you know, food is medicine, juicing, all that type shit that they were doing in their 70s, early 80s.

Speaker 2:
[45:55] It's really, I don't even need to ask, but you're familiar with Dr. CB., right? Dr. CB is very interesting, man. You have all these people like your father, like Dr. CB. They're able to think of things that really like, they cure a lot of people with a lot of diseases, you know, from addiction. I heard about Dr. CB discovering the cure for HIV and AIDS and, you know, stuff like that. But this stuff never comes to the forefront. But all of these people die in these mysterious circumstances.

Speaker 3:
[46:26] Yeah, I mean, my father chose to, he saw something in Eastern medicine that could be useful. A friend of his, Nobuko Miyamoto, she introduced him to acupuncture in Chinatown. And he saw, you know, because it was against the law. So they would do acupuncture in these little offices and little spots. And to heal different ailments. And he said, we need to try this in the community. We need to try this on these addicts. And he researched it, dug into it, learned about it, learned how it would help. And he did it, you know. He don't get the credit he deserves. The program he created was appropriated by one of these high-end rehab clinics. They're using it to this day.

Speaker 2:
[47:20] And he never got the credit for it.

Speaker 3:
[47:21] Nope. Because then he was on the run. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2:
[47:27] Do you ever see This Thug's Life becoming like a... I can see that becoming a docu-series, man.

Speaker 3:
[47:35] Well, actually, we're working on a series, a premiere cable series, hopefully a few episodes, a few seasons called Stiff Resistance, the Shakur family saga. So, Talia and I have been putting it together. We're getting ready, actually, to start shopping for a deal for it. But we think we got a story so rich that it could have multiple seasons and all of them be dope. You know what I mean? And it's a true story. We'll be practicing the pitch. We're going to pitch the show. We're talking about these shows at one battle after another. That's some made up shit. You know what I mean? It's a great movie, but it ain't Dead Presidents. Them stole little bits and pieces of my family's story to put in there. You know, a Judah and a Black... Was it Judah and a Black Messiah? Is that the name of that one? Yeah. That was based on the true story, Fred Hampton's story. You know, and that was one of the better ones. So I feel like, you know, we're coming with a true story. We help, you know, get these networks to help me do it right. It'll be a hit.

Speaker 2:
[48:48] It'll be a really big hit, man. I think you definitely have something, man, that's big in the people, because this story, man, there are so many people telling their versions of the stories, right? And they never play out, man, because people have to know. They want to know, you know what I mean? I think it's something that could be very, very big, man, especially if it's done the correct way, right? I even think it's something that's just simple as us having this conversation today. It's gonna shed a lot of light for a lot of people on a lot of things, right? Now, you said it took you, you guys were working on this for a long time.

Speaker 3:
[49:27] Yeah, the actual writing was like two, three years. Yeah, because you know, we had to do it all right because we're the professional publisher, so I had to have the treatment, chapter breakdown, and then go through different rounds of editing. And oh my goodness. So this was released? Make it write a rap. Let the rap.

Speaker 2:
[49:50] Just tell a story, but this is out now to the public, right? This is available to the public now, right?

Speaker 3:
[49:54] Yes, sir. Been out about a month. You know, check for yourself, folks. I've been getting some good reviews.

Speaker 2:
[49:59] I'm going to have some links down there for the people.

Speaker 3:
[50:01] God is good.

Speaker 2:
[50:02] Did you try to shop this to anybody?

Speaker 3:
[50:05] Just to publishers, different publishers, yeah. It was a battle for it actually amongst the publishers.

Speaker 2:
[50:13] Man, you might, I might have to holler at my boy Charlamagne. You know Charlamagne got him a pretty, Charlamagne, them books, man, that's a big thing for you.

Speaker 3:
[50:19] I heard about that. I heard, shout out to Charlamagne. I heard about that. But yeah, I'm a black author. I'm in the black author posse now. You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2:
[50:27] You know, if you don't mind, man, I'm going to definitely put that on Charlamagne's radar.

Speaker 3:
[50:31] Oh man, please, he need to. It's, yo, people giving him really good reviews. No exaggeration.

Speaker 2:
[50:38] It's very, that's why I said I could see it being a really good like biopic, man, a biopic. What I would like to see done with it, because I'm in the documentary, like docu stuff, man. I would like to really have like a documentary style thing, man.

Speaker 3:
[50:52] Well, my dude, have you, my co-writer and I, Talia and I, created a documentary called Dope is Death. I don't know if you've seen it, but dude, we got 100% on Rotten Tomatoes. So if you want to check out a doc, check that one out.

Speaker 2:
[51:08] Where is that?

Speaker 3:
[51:08] Dope is Death.

Speaker 2:
[51:09] What platforms is that on?

Speaker 3:
[51:12] It's on YouTube now. We had a deal with Vice when it first came out, but it was during the pandemic, but it's on YouTube now, Dope is Death. It's about whose acupuncture career, really, and the Lincoln Detox story. So yeah, man, that took seven years because Mutulu was still locked up when we started it.

Speaker 2:
[51:34] And you could do what you want to with that one, right?

Speaker 3:
[51:37] Well, that was in conjunction with a Canadian production company. So they, you know, their government be tapped in, but you know, they got respect for Mutulu because his, you know, some of his professional career was in Canada. You know, his education of it was in Canada.

Speaker 2:
[51:54] Yeah, man, that's so awesome. That's so awesome, man. You come from a very, man, just important lineage, man. I give you a salute, man.

Speaker 3:
[52:03] Salute. Salute to you, Black man.

Speaker 2:
[52:05] For you even still just being here, man, that's a lot, man.

Speaker 3:
[52:09] Dude, and I almost wasn't. That's why I'm blessed. And I'll give a shout out to the big man upstairs. But, you know, they often say Pac was prophetic. And he told y'all, he told you, only a few of us a little tail, and here I am. So, I'm on my deen. My Muslim brothers say.

Speaker 2:
[52:34] That's it right there. Man, I want to talk about music real quick, man, before we knock this off. Today, man, we in the rise of the independent rapper. Like, you know, most of these kids is putting their records out on their own. Like you got cats like NBA Youngboy that's making a lot of money. But we don't have nobody, like I haven't seen it yet, somebody with that voice, man. Because one thing about Pac, he made songs for the hood, but he made songs that would have you really just kind of like scratching your head sometimes. And he had songs that would make you want to go out there and fight somebody, you know?

Speaker 3:
[53:06] Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[53:06] I think we're missing that person. I think we're missing the emotion of music nowadays. Like, cause I ain't seen nobody do a Dear Mama. I haven't heard it yet.

Speaker 3:
[53:17] Yeah. I mean, you know, it's funny because when we first came out and Pac was doing like the keep your heads up, keep your head up, Brenda's got a baby. And them songs that was really touching on social issues and the street a lot, you know, they didn't know him. So they thought it's soft ass making these old soft ass records about babies. You know, they didn't, they didn't understand. That's why Pac had to show them the other side. But you know, we are, we are not a monolith. We, we got all these feelings, all these emotions. And we care like about our communities, just like y'all. You know what I mean? We love our babies, too.

Speaker 2:
[53:57] And the story about behind Brenda got a baby, man, I heard that was a true story.

Speaker 3:
[54:02] Yeah. I think Pac pulled from a lot of different places, things going on in his life, or this article in particular that he read. And that's what he would do. He would, because Pac was a serious reader. You know what I mean? He was all, whenever we was on a plane, he was reading something. He was like, give me all y'all magazines. Give me all y'all magazines. He was like, oh, come on, Pac. You know, because he was always absorbing knowledge.

Speaker 2:
[54:32] Always, man. You can tell he's a thinking man, man. Well, man, I appreciate you coming up here, man, and sit down with me, man.

Speaker 3:
[54:38] Of course, man. Y'all gangsta grill. You know what I mean? I got a gangsta grill. Let me see you show your grill.

Speaker 2:
[54:45] This is what I need y'all to do, man. I need y'all to hit that link at the bottom, man, and go get this book.

Speaker 3:
[54:50] Please do.

Speaker 2:
[54:51] Go do it right now, man. We appreciate you. Shout out to all my people out there and letting them know we out.

Speaker 3:
[54:59] Shout out to the gangsta grill fam. Salud, Thug Life, baby. For life.

Speaker 2:
[55:04] We gone. Well, that concludes another episode of The Gangsta Chronicles podcast. Be sure to download the iHeart app and subscribe to The Gangsta Chronicles podcast. For Apple users, find the purple mic on the front of your screen. Subscribe to the show, leave a comment and rating. Executive producers for The Gangsta Chronicles podcast, Norman Steele, Aaron MCA Tyler. Our visual media director is Brian Wyatt and our audio editor is Taylor Hayes. The Gangsta Chronicles is the production of iHeart Media Network and The Black Effect Podcast Network. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts wherever you listen to your podcasts.