transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:07] This is Business of Home, I'm Dennis Scully, and welcome to The Thursday Show. Later on, I'll be speaking with interior designer Chloe Redmond Warner about her new book, but first, we're gonna catch up on the news, including the rise of the wealth tax, an update on the tariff refund process, and whether being featured in a magazine still matters. To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Home's editor-in-chief, Kaitlin Petersen. Hi, Kaitlin.

Speaker 2:
[00:35] Hi, Dennis.

Speaker 1:
[00:36] Welcome to the show, Kaitlin. So nice to have you.

Speaker 2:
[00:38] I am always so excited to be here.

Speaker 1:
[00:40] Well, we're thrilled to have you, very kind of you to stand in for Fred, who's off frolicking in Milan, eating lots of pasta and enjoying lots of design. I bet he doesn't even understand, Kaitlin, right? He's seeing so many things.

Speaker 2:
[00:53] Posting great Instagram photos. He's a good follow as he's uncovering the best of Milan this week.

Speaker 1:
[00:59] Exactly. He's famous for his photography as regular followers will know. You are just back from Dallas where apparently you took the place by storm. Tell us about it.

Speaker 2:
[01:09] Last week, we hosted the first installment of our Business Accelerator series, which is a partnership with the Dallas Market Center. It was a half-day workshop focused on lead generation for design firms. It was just a really incredible, exciting event. We'll be back in September for the second installment, which covers really optimizing the design process. I'm already looking forward to spending more time with the Dallas design community. It's a really fun, energetic bunch.

Speaker 1:
[01:39] Well, I'm so glad. And we'll have to have you back on the show prior to your next trip there and to talk in more detail about it, because it sounds like it was really well attended and they're already making more room for you for September.

Speaker 2:
[01:53] It should be fun. Let's take a quick look back at Monday's episode. You had a great conversation with Arterior CEO John Hart. I loved this. And I loved the inside look at just how long it takes to make meaningful change at a big company.

Speaker 1:
[02:10] Exactly. Talk about a boat that is that is slow to turn. And you're talking about a big furniture and lighting company. And poor John, the nicest guy in the world, takes his takes his new job just as the home boom is over. Right. And he's in the decline part of it. And he's got to come in and shuffle the house up a little bit, maybe make some changes to the C-suite. But most importantly, he needed to make some big product changes. And we're going to see the results of that, Kaitlin, at High Point in just a few days.

Speaker 2:
[02:43] It's so funny. You know, it made me think a lot of, you know, in a media career, when you get a new editor-in-chief, you have to wait sometimes six or eight months, maybe a year. You know, that person is at the helm, but they're really publishing somebody else's magazine for quite a while. And then all of a sudden, there's an issue where you start to realize, oh, this is that person's fingerprint on this brand. This is the direction that they're going to be moving in. And it was so fascinating to hear just how long it takes to put your fingerprint on product production at this scale. You know, two years, to almost two and a half years is a really long time to wait, to plant a flag and say, this is where I want this brand to be going.

Speaker 1:
[03:27] Exactly.

Speaker 2:
[03:27] What patience that takes.

Speaker 1:
[03:28] Right. You have to be so patient and imagine everyone who's asking after, oh, when's the big change coming to your point? When are you putting your own big stamp on it? And I think that so much of what he has been working on is going to come even in later markets. But this is the first time that he feels there'll be enough newness to really talk about. And it is a reminder of just how slowly things change and the many challenges and things you want to fix when you walk in the door. But not always so easy. So interesting conversation. I look forward to seeing John and seeing how he's holding up. And hopefully he gets a great response at market. We'll find out soon enough. But I hope people enjoy that conversation. We're going to take a quick break and then we'll get into the news. This podcast is sponsored by Chelsea House, who invite you to discover Found, a new 80 piece collection by well-loved designer Eric Ross. See Eric's refined yet approachable design sensibility expressed in furniture, lighting, art, accessories and mirrors. Experience the anticipated debut April 24th through the 29th at Chelsea House, 200 North Hamilton Street in High Point. This podcast is sponsored by Loloi, a family-run company creating rugs, pillows and wall art with a focused on lasting design and long-term partnerships. It's April, which means High Point Market, and Loloi is introducing a range of new collections, including a standout collection that's been in development for years, along with new launches from Rifle Paper Company plus pillows and wall art. It's all part of Loloi's continued investment in product, in service, and in making things easier for their trade customers. With dedicated sales reps, showrooms across the country, and a seamless website experience. You can learn more and connect with a sales rep at loloirugs.com. That's L-O-L-O-I, rugs.com. And we're back. First up, an update on a story we've been following recently, of course, tariffs, Kaitlin.

Speaker 2:
[05:50] What else? The Federal Tariff Refund Portal officially opened this week, allowing businesses to seek reimbursement for duties struck down by the Supreme Court. I don't know about you, Dennis, but I took a look at what it takes to file a consolidated administration and processing of entries claim, and it's not for the faint of heart.

Speaker 1:
[06:11] Well, I didn't get to watch the entire 12-minute video that's on there that takes you through the process, because I was about to take my own life after just a few minutes of watching it, but I did feel like this isn't going to be the easiest process and what a surprise.

Speaker 2:
[06:25] Totally. It actually felt a lot like journalism school to me. If you made a single mistake, if you spelled a name wrong, if you got a fact wrong, you automatically got an F, and that seems to be the government's approach to the spreadsheet that brands have to submit. It's all numbers, like each column is a different section. There's no words allowed. It's just like the port, the item, the tracking information you have, and if you get a single number wrong, they're going to send you your whole spreadsheet back and say, try again.

Speaker 1:
[06:52] Exactly. If home brands were having a hard time figuring out the tariffs in the first place, wait till you try and get them back.

Speaker 2:
[07:01] Maybe it's worth a quick look at what that review process is. The government says that it should take about 45 days to process a claim once you make one, and then 60 to 90 days to deliver returns for eligible entries. Not all IEPA tariffs are currently even eligible for the claim. It's really just the cut and drive easier ones, and I think they'll be coming out with a process for the more complicated stuff down the road. But this is an unprecedented government refund portal to process about $166 billion worth of tariffs that were collected under IEPA. So it should be interesting to see how this unfolds.

Speaker 1:
[07:42] Well, we talked about the fact that they were going to roll this out, and in fact they have. And so for everyone who sits still in disbelief about this whole process, there is a site, there is a riveting 12-minute video. So by all means, watch that and go through the process. And you and I are heading to Highpoint with the big question to all the companies that we're going to speak to. Hey, what are your plans for that big tariff refund? Have you heard anything definitive from anyone before?

Speaker 2:
[08:10] In the industry? No. I think FedEx is on record saying it's going to try and matchmake its refund to its customers. Costco is on record saying that customers in the future will experience low prices, which seems to be the vibe that most brands are taking if they've said anything on the record. You know, in the home industry, I haven't heard that much. I don't know. I kind of hope that it's a little bit of rocket fuel for all of these brands who had so many of their initiatives sidelined after a year of trying to figure out how to navigate a tariff landscape. I think a lot of our industry manufacturers really deserve that boost, that surge after just so much headaches, so much trouble that maybe slowed down some of the big plans they had had for 2025. What have you heard?

Speaker 1:
[08:56] I think people are dodging the question in the short term because it's complicated, right? And of course, I'm sure internally, they're having all kinds of meetings about what they're going to do and how they're going to deal with what I imagine will be the demand from some people to, hey, can we have some of that money back too? Because of course, that complication is there. But I like your optimistic take. Maybe it'll be rocket fuel. Maybe it will leave them some money to invest in the SpaceX IPO that's coming out later on this year. Sure, that'll give them rocket fuel. They can take that money and invest it somewhere stable like that. I don't know. I mean, I think if anything, they worked so hard to re-engineer their whole manufacturing process. And maybe this money just gives them a little bit of a break or provides them some room to breathe a little bit in what we know continues to be a challenging market out there. We'll see. We'll see what people say and how upbeat they are about this when we hit the ground in High Point. In the meantime, we're going to move on and talk about the wealth tax. Last week, New York Governor Kathy Hochul announced plans to tax second homes in New York City, and similar policies are gathering traction across the country. The old Pied-a-Terre tax, Kaitlin.

Speaker 2:
[10:15] The Pied-a-Terre tax would apply to homes in New York City valued at $5 million or more. Comes in this really interesting, I think, tax the rich environment that we're in as a society. The idea is to raise about $500 million annually to help patch up the city's budget deficit. This is not the first time something like this has been attempted. The city's real estate lobby can previously put the stop on efforts to tax second homes in 2014 and 2019. But it's back.

Speaker 1:
[10:51] So they like this idea. They'd love to get it through, the Pied-a-Terre tax. Now listen, Kaitlin, we should get this out in the open. Do you have a Pied-a-Terre? Anywhere that you've been using? No?

Speaker 2:
[11:01] No, no. This one, I have a really hard time personally being mad at this one. I'm going to say that. I don't know about you. But I do think it's interesting for designers.

Speaker 1:
[11:12] I think it could be interesting for designers as well. Why do you think it's interesting?

Speaker 2:
[11:15] I think there's a really interesting line of thought when you talk to designers about how you're not supposed to put your money hangups on your clients. And I think that an issue like this really illuminates the divide between how, maybe how I live, how some designers live, what our financial reality is, and what the financial reality is of the ultra wealthy client. But when policies like this come and are poised to really change how that ultra wealthy client thinks about parking their money, how they think about where they want to live, where they want to own a home. That also means designers might need to take a second look at where they want to set up shop and where their home base needs to be. I think there's no secret that there's a lot of activity bubbling in Palm Beach. And it seems, I think that's a very similar conversation. It's definitely an outgrowth of an economy that's very welcoming for people to have a second home or a primary residence. I think big changes are afoot if this goes through.

Speaker 1:
[12:17] Well, I think you're right. And I think, listen, and there's lots of arguments on all sides of this issue that are compelling. And I understand it. And the LA mansion tax became law in 2023. And that placed a 4% tax on real estate sales over $5 million. And guess what? It raised a whole bunch of money, right? So it raised more than a billion dollars in just three years. And people in LA, some people will tell you, it's been great. And look at all this extra money that's been raised. And other people will tell you, as feared, it did alter the landscape. It did slow down certain sales and movement and all of that. Listen, there's a lot that is going against LA and New York's favor in all of this. And lots of people naturally moving to, as you say, Palm Beach, other parts of Florida, Texas is benefiting in a huge way. And so are all of the other tax-friendly states. And I think that trend is going to continue. So to your point about designers, I think you're right. It's not just look at where your clients might be working, but hey, do you wanna consider making a move to one of these nice, warmer, more tax-friendly states yourself and be near some of those nice clients? I don't know.

Speaker 2:
[13:38] It's interesting, you know, this isn't, these real estate taxes aren't the only thing that's happening in this space. Maine recently enacted a 2% surcharge on annual income over a million dollars. Washington has a similar policy. Massachusetts approved a surcharge on income over a million in 2022. There is an interesting legislative landscape, I don't want to say coming for a designer's client, but in many ways, that is what it is. You know, states are looking at high net worth individuals and saying, you know, we want a little bit more of that income. And I do wonder if we're going to start to see some interesting movement that reshapes, you know, where it's advantageous to be as a designer.

Speaker 1:
[14:21] I agree. And I would love to hear from designers whether they would really entertain moving. Again, not just chasing after these clients where they move to, but do they themselves see plans to? Because I'm sure there's a lot of tax advantages for them as well. So we'll see. But this is an issue that, at least in New York, it looks like this is getting more traction than in the past. So we'll see that new mayor, he sounds like he loves this idea. So stay tuned for more on that. In the meantime, here comes the bulk of the show, Kaitlin. It's all about getting published. So take it away.

Speaker 2:
[15:04] Absolutely. This week, BOH's Jen Fernandez explored whether or not designers still care about seeing their work in the pages of a print magazine. What do you think, Dennis?

Speaker 1:
[15:15] Well, I think I'm chatting with an editor-in-chief of a print magazine. So I have a pretty good idea where some of your thoughts are going to be here, but I'm wildly interested to get into this conversation because it's one that I'm very interested in. We talk about a lot. Designers have a lot to say on the subject and we'll get into it. But let's talk about Jen's piece and what she discusses in it first.

Speaker 2:
[15:43] Totally. I mean, I think she really sets up what's happening in the media landscape so well. I will say we are very quick to blame a changing and challenging media landscape. But I think her reporting does a great job of spotlighting that there's actually really two things at play here. Yes, there are fewer magazines. Most of them publish fewer issues than they used to. Each of those issues has fewer pages, so they have fewer projects in them. But also, and that means that yes, the opportunities in print are significantly smaller than they were a decade ago. But I also think the number of design firms has increased so exponentially in that same window of time, and the number of firms doing great work that deserves a spotlight has increased with it. And so just the pool of available spots is smaller, and it's leaving a lot of people wrestling with what to do with the pictures of that great work they have completed, and what the role of their publicist is going to be in helping them meet their goals. And I think really that's what this piece explores so well.

Speaker 1:
[16:45] So there's a huge math problem, it sounds like, right? That, to boil it down, sorry, it's just a terrible numbers game, and the numbers are just going in the wrong direction for the amount of designers that want to be on the pages of shelter magazines, right?

Speaker 2:
[17:01] I think so. And I think one of the biggest takeaways for me was just that you kind of have to, at this point, know why you want to get published in print. A lot of Jen's reporting really surfaced something that I've heard before as well, which is that getting a print feature isn't this one way ticket to a million phone calls when everybody wants to work with you. It's for something else. And it's totally okay if you go to your publicist and you say, I want to be in print because I want the recognition, because that would make me feel good, because that would make me feel like I've made it. But one of the great pieces of advice, I think, in this story is that if you're looking for meaningful leads for your business, you're actually probably better served taking that project somewhere else, that a digital placement or putting it on your own social media or doing a home worthy video on YouTube, that there's just so many places where you can go with those assets, tell your own story, be searchable digitally, and really move the needle for your business in a much more efficient way than waiting potentially years to see it on a newsstand.

Speaker 1:
[18:09] Yeah, and I think you're so right, and we've had so many conversations about what does it mean today to be published in print? And the immediacy of that reaction has changed, and what it represents to designers. Now, that said, how many designers have you ever spoken to that don't long to be published on the pages of Architectural Digest or El Decor or elsewhere, right?

Speaker 2:
[18:34] Just one.

Speaker 1:
[18:35] Well, there you go.

Speaker 2:
[18:37] I interviewed Jenna Chucid about a year ago on Trade Tales, and she was like, I don't even pitch for print. She goes, all of my best projects have been published on architecturaldigest.com. I want to be on their Instagram because I'm featured. I want to be on their website because I can link to that. I can harness those assets to drive attention to my business, and so that's what I'm pitching for. I want to be on.com. And I remember hearing that and kind of sit back in your chair. That feels revelatory in some ways to be gunning for digital coverage, but I think it's really smart.

Speaker 1:
[19:10] Exactly. The other thing that you mentioned, this whole notion of assuming that you need a publicist today is also a big change and one that many designers talk about the fact that they can't afford that right now as part of their overall marketing efforts. And so are you facing even more challenges in your pursuit of being published?

Speaker 2:
[19:36] Yeah. Well, you and I were talking about this right before we started recording. What a pendulum swing there's been in the industry. I think, you know, pre social media, you know, a publicist was really a gatekeeper. You know, you needed them to gain access to an editorial team, to an editor in chief. I think the fact that we can all DM each other with, you know, no holds barred on Instagram changed the game. And I think a lot of people started thinking like, oh, I can do this myself. I can reach out. I can make my own connections. I feel like in some ways we've sort of started to swing in the other direction. Just as the marketplace is so saturated that maybe you need someone to guide you in really getting your pitch to stand out. Do you see that as well, Dennis?

Speaker 1:
[20:21] I do, and I think what I was surprised about in the... So I put up a Thursday show poll on Instagram, and you and I, beforehand, we were thinking, oh, you're gonna get a lot of responses to that. And I was surprised at the kinds of responses that I got. And sort of, and honestly, Kaitlin, it took me a little while to sort of recover from some of the responses and try and think about how to really talk about this and share this, because there was so much, there was so much dissatisfaction, there was so much disappointment and disillusion. And what I was surprised came up most often was this perception that designers have today that shelter magazines, and we'll get into the accuracy of this perception, feels like it's pay to play, feels like you need to be, not only do you need to be paying for the photographer and the stylist and all of that, if you want to be published, but also there's this notion that the magazines are just looking to get paid in some other way to ensure that you're up on a digital story or that you participate in an article in a way that you didn't have to pay for in the past. Now again, we can challenge some of the accuracy of that, but that is certainly the mood out there. And of course they shared, oh, it feels all celebrity driven, or oh, it feels like it's very clickish and there's certain friends that get published all the time. And we can get into that, but what's your take to all that?

Speaker 2:
[21:54] I think that the pay to play perception is really complicated because I think in some ways that's true. Like there are more avenues than ever to spend money, to guarantee that you are considered or covered. And those avenues, those are new opportunities. And possibly, probably they come at the expense of a lot of coverage that didn't cost you any money. I do think that just editorial coverage with no money exchange is absolutely still alive and well in the industry. But I do think this paid component has really surged to sit right alongside it in the passenger seat. And that does change how you feel. Somebody's job also is to be the person generating leads for that magazine, right? So you're going to hear from somebody who says, oh, do you want to buy this in a way that you're probably less likely to hear from somebody who says, hi, can we just write about you? That out of the blue email is going to come from the person who wants your money. And it's interesting. I don't think that when you flip through the pages of any of the magazines that we know and love, somebody's paid to be the eight page home tour in there. I'm not sure that I know that that does happen in some magazines. I don't think that is universal, but you definitely can write a check and see your face in print. And that's an interesting thing to wrestle with today.

Speaker 1:
[23:25] Well, exactly. You know, I think the whole writing the check part of this is what seems so challenging to many designers that whether it's writing the check to the publicist every month, that seems to be more and more a necessity if you want to get past a certain hurdle. But also this notion of, wow, you're right, whether it's this 80 pro listing or all the different ways that they have found to monetize some association. And listen, it's no different from all of these sites that put out their top 50 lists and you have to be a big customer, right, on all of those lists to be even qualified. So, I mean, everything, that's what was so disheartening, honestly, Kaitlin, about all of the feedback from designers was it just felt like the deck was stacked against them. It was all some kind of special pay access or it's some insider club. There's some velvet rope and you're not on the right side of the rope, right?

Speaker 2:
[24:25] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[24:25] Even Jen's article about, again, going back to the math, looking at the number of issues that come out of Architectural Digest and the number of projects that get published, there wasn't even room for every member of the AD 100 to get a project published every year, right? So, I mean, that's a big part of the challenge. But let's give them the other issue, which you brought up in a conversation we were having before we came on air, which is this whole luck factor. And talk about that.

Speaker 2:
[24:51] I mean, I think the dissolution you referenced earlier is so real. And I think one of the pieces that's so challenging here is that, you know, you can get a publicist to give your pitch a glow up, to make sure your photography is right, to make sure that you've formatted everything so that you're, you know, telling editors everything they need to know about the product. You've got a compelling story. You've got a great location. You've got a client who's not anonymous. You've listed all of the sources in the project, and it happens to be a bunch of magazine advertisers, which they do love. And you still submit this pitch. Somebody writes you back, which is a pretty big win. And it might be a no. And it could be a great project. It could be on brand. It could be on style. But you get a no for a reason that is so completely out of your control. Like the brand has too many houses in Maine right now, or they're just full up on lake houses in general, or the boss doesn't like sunflowers, which is what you happen to style the project with, and they don't have the budget to reshoot it. So it's just a no because of the styling choice. Your project could also get the green light for the very next issue instead of sitting for a year because it fills perfectly a hole that the magazine has and it's going to be on budget for them, or they've got some need for what you're doing. There's just a little bit of magic and luck in it that you can't optimize for. And don't sideline a great portfolio waiting for that. If you're sitting on something that's going to change the way your next client is able to perceive your business, I think that's a real question. All designers should be asking themselves once they've captured a great project.

Speaker 1:
[26:36] In the age of Instagram, in the age of Substack, there are so many other ways that you can get yourself out there. This doesn't need to be the primary focus. I get why it is. Kaitlin, we could talk about this all day. And we'll have you back and we'll get into this more. But let's move on to Highpoint because Spring Market is kicking off this weekend. And my big question to you is, what are you most looking forward to?

Speaker 2:
[27:02] There is a lot happening this market. BOH is hosting a couple of really great events. If you are in town on Friday at 2 p.m., our own market editor, Caroline Biggs, is gonna be on a panel about the kind of resurgence of Highpoint, the city, as a creative hub for the maker community. Friday night, I'm hosting the launch party of House of Duval, which is designer Duval Reynolds' collaboration with Cheryl Furniture. I know, I'm so excited. I've been chatting with him, as this collection has been in development for the past year, he's been documenting his nerves and his excitement and his enthusiasm on Instagram all week, now that he's been down in Highpoint getting the showroom ready. And I think it's just going to be, one, a beautiful celebration that night. And also, I just can't wait to see what he's dreamed up for all of us. Last thing for me, Saturday morning, you can catch me at NKBA. They're popping up again in Broad Hall. And I'll be moderating a conversation about lighting strategies in the kitchen and bath space, which I'm really excited about. And that's just such a lively consortium of kitchen and bath category brands, I think really thoughtfully merchandise together. So it's a great space to check out. Dennis, what are you excited about at Market this season?

Speaker 1:
[28:19] You know, of course, always excited to see all of these new introductions. And shout out to our friend, Amber Lewis, who I know has her new big lighting collection with forehands. And she's got lots of things going on always at High Point. I more than anything, Kaitlin, as I've shared with you many times on the show, I'm just looking forward to seeing so many of the people there. And I feel like this is another High Point where you just want to kind of give people a little pat on the back and go, look, you made it to another market. Like with everything going on with tariffs, the war in Iran, the everything. Hey, you made it to a market, you know? And let's just celebrate that. And you've got some product to show. And I think that everyone is just excited. I believe it's gonna be about 85 degrees when we're there. So it's gonna be warm and sunny. And I don't know how that's gonna make people feel. I'll be uncomfortable, of course, because you know.

Speaker 2:
[29:13] I'm so stoked.

Speaker 1:
[29:14] Heat, not my thing. Kaitlin, wildly excited. I'll be running into every air-conditioned building I can find. But I just feel like, you know, we've talked about people's resilience so often on the show. I feel like everyone is just, they're almost a little punch drunk with everything that they've had to deal with. And I think we're just gonna see people just be happy to be together. And we'll celebrate everyone's new collaborations and introductions. And then we'll grill them about what the heck they're gonna do with the tarot free funds.

Speaker 2:
[29:46] I was just gonna say, like, everybody who sees us is gonna run for cover now. Oh, shoot, they're gonna ask us what we're doing with our tarot free funds.

Speaker 1:
[29:52] Everyone who doesn't want to answer that question should definitely run the other way. But you know what, Kaitlin's got back to back appointments with you, so you're not gonna be able to run. So too far.

Speaker 2:
[30:00] That's true, right?

Speaker 1:
[30:01] So yeah, but I just feel like I can't wait. So I'm really looking forward to it.

Speaker 2:
[30:06] I want to put one plug out there for something that I am excited about this season, which is the Amati Collective. It's a new building opening about two blocks away from 313 Space, which has been such a buzzy outpost for designers the last couple markets. And it's gonna include a lot of kind of artisan driven and maker brands, including the high point debut of the Design Social Pop-up. I know.

Speaker 1:
[30:30] I know. Huge.

Speaker 2:
[30:31] It's gonna be great. And I just think there's been such an appetite for independent or boutique brands at market. And this space is just gonna be one more way to really deliver on that. The Design Social is bringing more than two dozen maker driven fabrics, wall coverings, rugs, furniture, lighting, and hardware. And I just hope that designers in attendance at the show, this market, give them such a warm welcome. I've been traveling with the Design Social brand since the beginning of the pop-up in 2019. And they are just an incredible, talented bunch. So I am beyond thrilled for their high point debut.

Speaker 1:
[31:08] Couldn't agree more. I'm wildly excited. And shout out to a friend of the show, Brooks Morrison, for making that happen, the incredible Brooks Morrison. And I can't wait to see what they do there. And I plan to be hanging out at the Design Social with a great deal of my time. So can't wait for that. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including May's Can't Miss Design events, and why Western design is hot again. But first, a quick break. If you're heading to High Point this month, Loloi's showroom is well worth a visit. See the new introductions and don't miss a conversation between founder Amir Loloi and designer Amber Lewis on design, business, and wherever the conversation leads. There'll also be live entertainment throughout the week. And if you can't make it to market, all of the new collections will be available online at loloirugs.com where you can also connect with a sales rep or find the showroom nearest you. 300 thrilling new designs. 300 fresh inspirations from Chelsea House. Experience one of the most exciting showrooms in High Point with delight around each corner and see what makes Chelsea House the go-to source for today's designers. Visit Chelsea House at 200 North Hamilton Street in High Point. Pick up an iconic Chelsea House bag and be inspired. And we're back. I'm joined now by interior designer, Chloe Redmond Warner. Chloe, so glad to finally have you on The Thursday Show.

Speaker 3:
[32:51] It's a pleasure to be here, Dennis. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1:
[32:53] Well, I'm delighted. And there's so much that I want to talk to you about. You've got a new book, which I'm eager to discuss, and much that's contained within it. But before we jump into that, let's tell people a little bit about who you are and your practice and so tell us.

Speaker 3:
[33:10] Yeah, I have a firm in Berkeley, California, and I've been here for 20 years. I started right after I graduated architecture school and had a small firm at first. And now I believe we're officially a mid-size firm.

Speaker 1:
[33:25] Well, congratulations on that.

Speaker 3:
[33:26] Thank you.

Speaker 1:
[33:28] And you went out on your own right away. Looking back, was that the right path? Was that the right choice for you?

Speaker 3:
[33:35] I think for sure I went to architecture school, not because I really wanted to be an architect. I think I knew I wanted to be an interior designer even before I started. But I really wanted people to take me seriously, and I didn't have the confidence that I needed. And so I needed that institutional approval and I got it. And then the second I got it, I was like, all right, I know exactly what I need to do.

Speaker 1:
[34:03] I don't need this anymore. This education that I have just received, I'm done with it now.

Speaker 3:
[34:09] Done with it. I mean, and I sure did learn a lot. Like I learned how to present and I learned how to take criticism and I learned to revise. But I don't know if architecture school even trains people to be architects. Like I think you learn so much at a firm. So it was so theoretical. It's like, you know, design a post office. Like who's getting asked to do that?

Speaker 1:
[34:32] Well, not enough people because we don't have enough post offices. I understand that system is working terribly well these days. So I want to stay with this though, because in the introduction of your new book, This Must Be the Place, which I gather is coming out in May, you wrote in the introduction about this architecture education that you received. You said you knew from a young age, and I'm quoting you back to you, that you wanted to be an interior designer, but you also knew that came with some baggage and the baggage, to use your words, was mean and gendered. Architects were essential and respected. Designers were ornamental and frivolous. Thank goodness that's changed so much, Chloe.

Speaker 3:
[35:17] No, I mean, that rang true at the time, and it still does a little bit. I think that things have improved for sure. There are more female architects than there ever have been. But the last woman who won a Pritzker Prize was in 2005. It was Zaha Hadid who won it in 2005. There have been women who have won it since, but they've been in partnership with other people. That's crazy. That's the premier prize of our industry, and only one woman has won it ever, and that was 20 years ago. So I think it's not a stretch to say that it's gendered and mean, and I'm not sure what it is exactly, but my beef was that in my heart, I wanted to be an interior designer and I was afraid it wasn't good enough. I'm glad that I did get the education because at this stage, I can see that interior design is so powerful and effective at creating atmosphere, and it's just as powerful as architecture. And so I think it's important to kind of name that and talk about how it's not just the ornamental sibling that went to the party school and is here and it's like fun. It's like very essential and is actually like what makes life wonderful and I think deserves more respect.

Speaker 1:
[36:46] Well, and you write about the joy of aesthetics and how important you came to learn that was. And I wonder if you can talk a little bit about that because I know that you heard the author Pauline Brown actually talk about aesthetic intelligence and that got you thinking about this notion of aesthetic quotient and AQ which you talk about a great deal.

Speaker 3:
[37:16] Oh, so interesting. So I was on a DLN trip, a Design Leadership Network Summit in London, and they gathered the most interesting people to present and talk to us all, and Pauline Brown presented, and she said something along the lines of like, I could explain this, but I don't really have to because everyone in this room has a ton of aesthetic intelligence. And I was like, oh, yes, that is what we all care about, and you don't have to explain it. We all get it. And it kind of dawned on me that it's not something that everyone has, and it's something special, and it does a lot to make spaces wonderful, schools wonderful, to make the world make sense, and to also make it nice for your body and your senses. And that it's very much a part of what makes life worth living, is being good at this and paying attention to this, and investing the time to get it right.

Speaker 1:
[38:26] So getting back to the hierarchy that seems to exist, have we made progress there in a meaningful way, or do we still have a great deal of work to do when it comes to that hierarchy and how designers are perceived relative to others in the industry?

Speaker 3:
[38:45] I think there's still some work to do, and I think that part of why the hierarchy exists is because of institutions. There are more institutions that give architecture degrees than interior design degrees. And I also think that art does a huge job in creating atmosphere, and there's more schools that give art degrees. So I think that taking it more seriously on an institutional level would be nice. And then I don't think education is the only institution that we need to be elevating this industry. I think Business of Home is a wonderful institution that is elevating the profile and work of interior designers.

Speaker 1:
[39:30] Couldn't agree more. That was, wow, didn't plan that. But sure, yes.

Speaker 3:
[39:35] Yeah, like it's not only education. It doesn't have to be like a gatekeeper-y thing.

Speaker 1:
[39:41] No, exactly. And that's what I love about it, that it isn't. And I don't want it to become that. But I also don't want to, I don't want us to be living in a time where we don't also appreciate education and people who have put in the time. I think though you joke about your architecture degree, you learned a great deal from it. And as you shared earlier, you also learned how to be criticized or have people give meaningful feedback on your work, which is something that the design industry doesn't often have, though lots of people share feedback and comments and other places that perhaps we don't welcome quite as much. But it is interesting that criticism that we often talk about doesn't exist in our world in the same way it does in the architecture world. I don't know if you think that's for better or for worse.

Speaker 3:
[40:31] I honestly don't know. I've never had more savage criticism than I have in design school, not even from the meanest, least emotionally aware client. It seems like it was a little harsh, honestly.

Speaker 1:
[40:45] Is that right?

Speaker 3:
[40:45] Yeah, I think so. I was talking to somebody my age who is on staff at Cal, and she was like, oh, Pete, we are so much nicer to students now. We were in the ops.

Speaker 1:
[40:59] Then when you went through the process.

Speaker 3:
[41:02] Yeah, it was like a very important part of it when I was there to be pretty harsh.

Speaker 1:
[41:09] With the notion of what? Seeing if you could take it or seeing if it would point you in some direction that you weren't otherwise going. Why do you think it was so harsh?

Speaker 3:
[41:21] I don't know. And there's a component of sleep deprivation and then of really personal criticism. And I think it's to weed people out. I mean, maybe it's because it sounds really great. It sounds like an amazing career. And so they have to weed people out or else they would be overrun.

Speaker 1:
[41:43] With all these amazing architects just running wild all over the place.

Speaker 3:
[41:47] She's happy.

Speaker 1:
[41:48] Oh, joyful. If ever I've met a joyful lot, it is a bunch of architects who have just gotten through school.

Speaker 3:
[41:55] Yeah. Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 1:
[41:57] Yeah. Maybe it's that whole sort of marine-like training where they break them down to build them back up and I don't know.

Speaker 3:
[42:03] I think that's probably it. But I'm not sure why that has persisted for so long. I think it is worthwhile to receive feedback in kind of an impersonal way, but I don't think you have to break people down.

Speaker 1:
[42:21] And I don't want to. I don't want to. I'm here to help build them up, frankly. Exactly.

Speaker 3:
[42:25] There we go.

Speaker 1:
[42:26] Yes. Because I think as you touched on earlier, part of what was going on for you with architecture school was just this confidence issue. And I'm trying to figure out through discussions why this industry still seems to have such a confidence problem. Why does Sean Lowe have to be working so hard to convince designers of their worth? Why is this an industry that doesn't always value itself as much as it should, especially knowing this whole issue of aesthetic quotient you talked about earlier, knowing that you can make people feel better in their homes by giving them the skills that you have to offer and that great designers do for clients?

Speaker 3:
[43:18] Yeah, I mean, I think some of it probably does have to do with the low barrier to entry, because if you say you're in a club that everybody can be in, then it loses a little bit of its cache. It's definitely at the top of the hierarchy of needs. You do not need to have your house designed by a professional who is going to think about you and your preferences and your habits and how you live, and then shape your whole world around that. People lead very fulfilling, wonderful lives without it.

Speaker 1:
[43:58] People manage to find happiness without that, but imagine the happiness you can find with that.

Speaker 3:
[44:03] I mean, it's huge. It really is huge.

Speaker 1:
[44:06] Well, you see, and that's, I mean, all joking aside, that's what I think so many people don't understand is just how much better their lives are going to be. And to your point, not everybody needs this, of course, but if you have the wherewithal, if you have the gift to be able to hire an architect, hire a designer, have someone come into your life, and as you were just referencing, actually study your life and your living habits and habits, right?

Speaker 3:
[44:36] No, it's huge. And I think there's something about having your built environment reflect you that makes life easier. And it's a quest worth embarking on because I think that it's what it means to be at home in the world. And when you are not living in an environment that reflects you, I think it's the same feeling of having like cognitive dissonance. So maybe there's another term we can coin, aesthetic dissonance.

Speaker 1:
[45:12] Okay, I want to shift gears because I want to come back to the book, This Must Be the Place. And Chloe, in the description of this book that I receive, it talks about a home with real personality, layered with color, pattern and unexpected touches that feel unmistakably personal. But then it talks about little women on acid. 1970s Sofia Coppola in Palm Beach. Stuart Little goes big. Just a few of the fantasies.

Speaker 3:
[45:46] PG fantasies that you have done.

Speaker 1:
[45:50] But it seems as if and you're an avid reader and consumer of literature. And it seems as if that gets to spill over in a fun way into the work you do. Tell me about that.

Speaker 3:
[46:07] I mean, I love kind of the beginning phase of any project is one of my favorites where we're talking to the clients and finding out what music they listen to and what movies they're able to kind of remember a scene from hotels they love, just sort of the specific things that aren't exactly interior design. Like I really don't find it fun to ask people what style of interior design they have or they like. Because I feel like people can't quite say, and even I can't say, what style our firm does. I'm like, oh, it's appropriate, I guess.

Speaker 1:
[46:52] Is that how you describe the word?

Speaker 3:
[46:54] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[46:54] It's appropriate.

Speaker 3:
[46:56] That inspires no one. But I love pulling from other worlds. I like pulling from graphic design. I love fonts. Oh my God. I love color combinations, love songs, love soundtracks. I feel like if you can nail down what you think a soundtrack of a project should be, then you are 55 percent of the way there.

Speaker 1:
[47:24] So tell me what that conversation looks like when you talk to someone about their playlist or the music they like, or you're looking for that way into who they are.

Speaker 3:
[47:35] My favorite playlist or maybe when I figured out that this was going to be something that we could really work on was with the project in the book called Twin Peaks on Prozac. It's for the same person who was like little women on acid, but it's their Occidental House.

Speaker 1:
[47:55] Got it.

Speaker 3:
[47:56] So we were joking, but she wanted it to be spooky and happy. So I couldn't quite put my inspirations together. Like it wasn't coming together. I didn't know. I don't know. I was stuck. So I made a soundtrack, and I started with the Twin Peaks show, like the David Lynch soundtrack, and that was not quite it. Then I pictured the Virgin Suicides, and so I got that soundtrack, and then it all came together. Then it was like you're listening to The Cure, and Air was on there, and I was like, it's a little back door into a world I can imagine these people inhabiting, and the client and I are the same age, so imagining these songs, I was like, oh, those are gonna hit probably the same place that it hits me.

Speaker 1:
[48:50] Yeah, and then you, and that's why, I mean, so much of what's happening in culture is this nostalgia for that music, right? From when everybody did lock in their musical taste, and if you play that, it's like, you can get whatever you want from me, if you just start speaking to me through that music.

Speaker 3:
[49:07] Just play one song by The Cure, and we're best friends.

Speaker 1:
[49:10] Exactly, and I'm like, boom, here you go, and I open my wallet and say, sure, you're gonna make my home feel like that, but I do feel as though that's connecting with someone on that level can be such a deep personal connection that I can't even imagine. Do you think of yourself, consciously or otherwise, as a great salesperson?

Speaker 3:
[49:36] This is a little bit uncomfortable because I think in my heart, I think of myself as an artist, but there's a part of me that needs to make this particular kind of art so badly that I see this inner salesperson come out. I'm aware of how I do need to make the vision clear in order to do the project. It's always coming from a place of enthusiasm and authenticity. But sometimes when I see that people do need to hear it from me, and they can't just rubber stamp it and be like, sure, I think it's fine. I'm like, oh, man, there is an inner salesperson in there. And that makes me feel, I don't know, it's not what you dream of being, but it has to go along with this. I do think it's important.

Speaker 1:
[50:33] Shifting gears, you were early to Substack.

Speaker 3:
[50:37] Earlier than a lot of people, yes.

Speaker 1:
[50:39] Right. You were ahead of many who have since joined, and it does seem to be a powerful movement afoot to be on that platform. I'm wondering how it's going for you, how you think about it, what it does for you.

Speaker 3:
[50:55] Well, I'm a huge reader. I have almost cut off my Instagram diet and replaced it with Substack diet, which I think is healthier. I started it just to see if I could write my own book, because I sold this proposal, and then I was like, should I write my own book? I wanted to, but I didn't know why. And then I started Substack and I was like, oh, I do like to write. And so it was kind of a testing, proving ground for that. And I definitely pulled back while I wrote the book. And now I'm like, oh, Substack is still there. And I'm pretty infrequent. I'm like, you know, I do 10 a year.

Speaker 1:
[51:34] Tell me also how it goes with rad goods and what you're doing online. And I know it's a challenging time for online businesses.

Speaker 3:
[51:48] Well, that's so funny. Rad Goods just got representation, Dennis. We are in Harbinger in LA.

Speaker 1:
[51:55] I saw that. And huge fabulous party and that incredible table that was set. And my goodness.

Speaker 3:
[52:04] That was incredible. Incredible.

Speaker 1:
[52:06] And Joe Lucas looked fantastic in trousers with your fabric.

Speaker 3:
[52:11] I mean, that's what it was made for, that guy. Yeah, that was a huge, that's probably my favorite moment of Design LA. But yeah, I didn't know how much fun it would be to be in a showroom. And we had been selling it just online. And then our manufacturers were like, maybe you guys could work on selling some units. And I was like, oh, this is my creative project. I thought it would sell itself. And they were like, no, try again, go get some representation. And so, yeah, we are in the process of working on some showroom relationships. And that has been so much fun too. It's way more fun to be out in the world than it is to just be on a website.

Speaker 1:
[52:57] Well, which brings us to, and this can be our last hot topic on this, which brings us to artificial intelligence.

Speaker 3:
[53:04] I knew it was coming.

Speaker 1:
[53:05] Coming for the real world is AI. Is it coming for you?

Speaker 3:
[53:11] I think so much of our value is in the solid, reliable moving of like an idea into your actual house. And the logistics portion of our firm at this point is not AI replaceable. And so I do see people being able to like get ideas and settle on ideas that are suggested by AI. But the actual installing of those ideas feels safe for now. And I've actually been relying on that for a long time. Like I feel like technology has been creeping for interior design for a long time. And that seems pretty grim. Like I do believe the ideas are wonderful. And there is something about when everything is available, when there's infinite choice, an edit is valuable. But I do see people being willing to accept the edit of a robot. And I'm like, there's nothing I can do about that. Like I don't think it's as good. But for the people that we are working for, I don't think it'll be good enough for them. I was at a dinner party with a client and he was like, Chloe, I asked Claude to design the living room. And I was like, oh my god. And then touch me on the shoulder and goes, don't worry, you're safe. And I was like, for now, oh my god.

Speaker 1:
[54:40] Yes. Because my understanding is just about every client is hopping on there and running it through its paces and seeing what it can do.

Speaker 3:
[54:49] I mean, we are loving using it to further, like the visual communication faster than we could before. So we have it working on renderings, testing out paint colors. But there is like this thing that happens when you can just like iterate forever, you kind of lose the thread a little bit. So I am trying to get my office to just be like, you have the ideas, you test two of them out. You do not say like, here's the room in red and here's the room in orange, here's the room in yellow. Like you still have to like have your idea and your focus and then just use it to like test three ideas in four minutes instead of four days. So at this point, it's my friend and I wish we could just stop it here.

Speaker 1:
[55:40] Well it's coming and we're just going to have to stay positive about the whole thing. Chloe, we have to go now sadly. I've waited so long to have you on. It's hard for me to say goodbye but.

Speaker 3:
[55:54] Well this has been a pleasure Dennis. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1:
[55:57] Well the pleasure is mine. The book, This Must Be the Place, Homes with Atmosphere comes out May 5th and we look forward to that and I thank you again for your time.

Speaker 3:
[56:07] Thank you so much.

Speaker 1:
[56:14] And we're back, we're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Kaitlin, what caught your eye?

Speaker 2:
[56:23] What caught my eye this week is the news that the one and only Dennis Scully will receive an honorary doctorate at the New York School of Interior Design 2026 Spring Commencement next month. So first of all, on behalf of the entire team at BOH, I just want to say congratulations, Dennis.

Speaker 1:
[56:41] Oh, well, thank you. That's very kind and I'm very honored and very excited. So thank you.

Speaker 2:
[56:47] Of course, you are creating meaningful conversations. You are inspiring the next generation of designers and design leaders. And I just think this is such an incredible and poignant way to celebrate you. So it is well deserved and we are all just so excited for you.

Speaker 1:
[57:03] Well, I appreciate that very much. I'm, as I say, I'm very honored. I was quite surprised by the whole thing, but delighted. And I look forward to people having to call me Dr. Scully in the very near future.

Speaker 2:
[57:16] Can I practice? What caught your eye, Dr. Scully?

Speaker 1:
[57:19] Yes. Let's get those new business cards made up, shall we?

Speaker 2:
[57:23] Truly, though. What caught your eye this week, Dennis?

Speaker 1:
[57:25] Well, you know, I'm so excited about, you know what, Kaitlin, the opening of RH Milan. That's right. Sadly, you and I couldn't be there, but our man on the ground, Fred Nicolaus, is there, and I can't wait to hear his report. Also, the first showings of the RH Estates collection and a lot of activity, not to mention Margot Robbie's incredible gray fabulous menswear suit ensemble that she was wearing. There were a lot of celebrities on hand, but Margot Robbie, I'm sorry, just stole the whole show. So whatever furniture they showed there, I don't think people are going to remember, frankly, because she was just so amazing and I love that they all gathered there. It seemed like everyone's having an incredible time in Milan, but I felt like a lot of our old friends seem to also be on hand for the RH opening.

Speaker 2:
[58:19] Absolutely.

Speaker 1:
[58:20] We look forward to the reports there, but we all know that the company is counting on this big opening. So hopefully, it all went well and we look forward to Fred's report, assuming he actually does come back from Milan. We'll see.

Speaker 2:
[58:35] We might lose him to the streets of Milan and bicycle rides between appointments.

Speaker 1:
[58:40] He looked like he was having a pretty good time, so I don't know. It's hard to get him back on the farm after he's seen Milan, I guess, but we'll see. Come back, Fred, please, will you? In the meantime, though, Kaitlin, before we leave, I mean, thank you again for stepping in and coming on the show. It's always so fun to have you.

Speaker 2:
[58:59] It's always so fun to be here.

Speaker 1:
[59:01] I know that we're going to have you back next week for our exciting High Point Recap Show, so I look forward to that. But I really thank you again, and that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nicholaus and Caroline Burke, and edited by Michael Castagneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.