transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:03] What's up Chicago, I'm Erin Allen and this is Curious City. Our last episode was about the Black Chicago accent. As Curious City contributor Arionne Nettles told us, that accent has southern roots that trace back to the Great Migration. And it has persisted for all these generations for three big reasons. First, the Black Chicagoans who have the accent still live close to each other. Also, they still have family connections to the south. And third, because they like how it sounds. As you probably noticed, Arionne, who was born and raised on the South Side, definitely has the Black Chicago accent.

Speaker 2:
[00:46] I do, I do. So I love it now. It feels good, it feels soft and warm. But I think that for the longest, I did not know that it was a thing. I didn't notice it.

Speaker 1:
[00:59] The way a person talks can really influence how they're perceived and how they live their lives. And in the work that both Arionne and I do, broadcast journalism, how you sound is under extra scrutiny. I mean, let's be serious. If you have an accent that deviates from standard American English, and you work in news media, you're probably gonna get some emails. I certainly have. So today, Arionne and I are gonna talk about that accent, how it affected her journalism journey, and the importance of embracing your voice. To start, Arionne says she didn't even realize that the Black Chicago accent was different than the way other Black people spoke.

Speaker 2:
[01:45] Until I went to school in the South, and people thought I talked funny.

Speaker 1:
[01:51] So tell me about that. When did you realize that you had an accent?

Speaker 2:
[01:56] So it's 2003, and I'm at Florida A&M in Tallahassee, Florida. And I'm thinking, well, if we all have southern roots to our speech, it's the HBCU, it's a predominantly Black campus, so there's Black people from everywhere, right? Which was the big, beautiful thing, is that I'm meeting Black people from all across the country in a way that I never had really been around before. But to them, I talk funny. And so it's kind of like, okay, well, in Chicago, people think I talk southern, but when I'm in the south, people think I talk funny. And so it's not exactly how people in the south talk, it's something different. And that's when I realized, okay, no, there's this specific, unique, black Chicago accent or dialect that is different than just what some linguists call just the black English.

Speaker 1:
[02:57] When you said people said that you taught funny, did they tell you how? Did they say you sound like, are you from up north? Or what did they say?

Speaker 2:
[03:07] Yeah, well, people really talked about how we said car. And we're like, car, I'm finna get in the car, I'm gonna go to the store. And instead of going to the movies, we would say, I'm finna go to the show. And so, because these are just things that come up in normal conversation. Like if you're talking about getting groceries, oh, okay, well, let's get in the car. Let's go to the store. And so those people really, really, those are the words that people really, really tease us about.

Speaker 1:
[03:36] And then there's also, there's similarities between all, you know, that I think what, I can't say all, I guess, but the vast majority of black people in America, right? Of like, I'm Fina, right? Like that, I feel like is like, that's what I would say, and I'm not from Chicago, and any other black person I would come across that has this kind of African American vernacular English, right? Like that's a very standard way to say something.

Speaker 2:
[03:59] So sentence structure, you mentioned like the Fina or like the habitual B, the meaning behind it, right? So if I be doing something, right? Like that is a totally different meaning than if I just do a verb, because that means that I am continuously doing something often. So like there are definitely rules to African American vernacular English that just kind of does cross maybe geographic lines, and they all do go back to those Southern roots.

Speaker 1:
[04:34] So then in hindsight, do you remember the accents of the people that you grew up with? So maybe like, you know, family members, people around you, and how that influenced you?

Speaker 2:
[04:45] I do. So my grandma was from Greenwood, Mississippi.

Speaker 1:
[04:49] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[04:49] Her mom and her sister were also from Greenwood, Mississippi. And so I guess I thought that I talk like them, but when I think about them, it was just like such a heavier draw, I think. So like, I don't really think that my grandma said like, ca, like the way that me and my cousins are going to say it, you know. My mom also probably, with her being a generation closer to my grandma, she still gets questions in Chicago about, where are you from? Because she, her dialect is still a little bit closer to the South than it is to Chicago, black, South, you know. So there's just those things that really do make a difference. And so you can hear it when you hear it. And even now, so like, you know, right now I'm teaching back at CMU and I can hear the differences between people who are from North Florida and South Florida. I can hear the difference between Florida and Alabama. I can hear the difference between Alabama and Georgia and Tennessee, right? Like all of these twangs and little differences are so key when you hear it, but you don't think about it until you hear it and you're like, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. That's how so-and-so says it.

Speaker 1:
[06:13] So whereas before, you didn't even realize, now you have a pretty keen ear.

Speaker 2:
[06:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you also notice in your own speech, like here in Tallahassee, I probably am way more southern. But then as soon as I get home, it's kind of like I just kind of morph back into like my original self, like my natural speech, and it just kind of falls back in there.

Speaker 1:
[06:38] Yes. I mean, it's also just who you're talking to, you know. If I'm talking to you versus talking to my mother versus talking to like our colleague Justin, you know, it's just very different.

Speaker 2:
[06:48] I'm pulling it out of you, Arionne. You're a Chicago girl now.

Speaker 1:
[06:51] Yeah, well, I'm getting close. I'm getting close. I know some Chicagoans who wouldn't be like, uh-uh, but yeah, I appreciate that coming from you. You know, speaking of that, I'm from Detroit. I didn't know I had a specific Detroit accent until I moved here to Chicago. I was like, oh, like black Chicagoans talk differently than Detroit, black Detroiters. And yeah, so it does feel very different, even though, like you said, we have such a similar history and how we evolved and how we came here. I mean, Detroit is very, it's southern, but it's also West Coast in a way. I have at least two or three people in my life who have said, who are not from Detroit or Chicago, who have said, I confuse sometimes black Detroiters with black people from Inglewood.

Speaker 2:
[07:41] And not our Inglewood, but the Inglewood with the I.

Speaker 1:
[07:43] California, exactly with that. Yeah. I want to talk about how you're perceived based on the way that you speak. When did you first realize that the way you talk might influence how people look at you?

Speaker 2:
[07:59] I don't think I really thought about that until I transitioned into journalism. My first degrees were in business, and I was in that world for some years right after college. And I was always like a really smart student, so I never thought that people would think that I was anything less than smart, because I was always smart and everybody knew I was smart, right? I was an overachiever. I'm 22, and I'm in the room with executives because I would fill in for my bosses and stuff if they had to go out. So I'm like, okay, so listen, Tom, we are looking at the KPIs for this paper mill. And simply, the cost per ton is just not hitting where it's supposed to be. And then everybody's just looking at me like, who is this girl? Is she the intern? Like, what's going on, right? So I never felt that people weren't going to think that I was smart because I thought that my work was clear, that you know what I know. I know what I know and everybody knows what I know.

Speaker 1:
[08:59] It speaks for itself.

Speaker 2:
[09:00] It speaks for itself. But it wasn't until I transitioned into journalism, people are putting mics in my face, and I have to speak to people on the street who do not know me, that I am realizing that, okay, people are going to judge me. And so I was in grad school at Northwestern in Northwestern's Medill program, talking to people on the street. And I at that time did not realize that I did, and probably still do if I'm not thinking about it, what a lot of black people do, and that is having your TH sounds come out sounding like F sounds.

Speaker 1:
[09:45] Oh yeah.

Speaker 2:
[09:45] Again, I just didn't realize it, right?

Speaker 1:
[09:47] Our South.

Speaker 2:
[09:49] Exactly. I'm our South, right? South. So I'm talking to somebody and I'm saying hi. Again, I'm thinking I'm being really nice. This is my first quarter in this really tough grad school program, and I have this assignment. I have a million assignments due. I go up to somebody and I say hi. My name is Arionne and I am a graduate journalism student at Northwestern. Again, not thinking, just talking naturally. And this man says, you can't be a journalism student or you can't be a graduate student at Northwestern talking like that. Not saying Northwestern.

Speaker 1:
[10:31] With an F instead of a TH.

Speaker 2:
[10:34] Exactly. Which just crushed all of my confidence for the rest of the day. I go back to school, I talk to Charles Whitaker, who was now the dean, but he was my magazine professor at the time. And I am in tears. I'm like, Charles, I need to change how I talk. I don't know what to do. He's like, you talk fine, you're fine. I went to Second City, took an amazing class. It was so fun. But I sounded, I ended the class sounding exactly the same. Because again, I can't really talk. You know, this is how I speak, right? Like I can slow things down. I can be more thoughtful with certain words because I want people to understand what I'm saying, right? But me sounding differently is not going to happen. Like it's just, it's actually not going to happen. So it was actually really funny because working in radio was really healing for me because it was the first time that I was able to say like, you have to listen to your own voice. You have to like your own voice. You have to embrace it. That's the only way that you're going to be able to do this work. And you want to do this work. You like this work. You're going to have to figure it out.

Speaker 1:
[11:53] That's really beautiful. I think about that as well. I mean, there are a few people that I listened to on NPR before I ever got into this business who are black, and I did not know they were black until I started working in public radio and actually Googling these folks and being like, oh, those folks were unnamed because I don't want to say anything. It make it sound like it's disparaging. It's not. People talk how they talk.

Speaker 2:
[12:18] And I get it, too, because especially the traditional thing is you have to change how you speak. That's right. Or you have to grow into speaking that way. But because it's like, yeah, we want diversity, but we don't want diversity of voices. We don't actually want people to sound differently. And it can be discouraging because you're like, okay, so you might hire black people, but you are not going to hire black people that sound black.

Speaker 1:
[12:41] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[12:41] A lot of times.

Speaker 1:
[12:42] Exactly. Or who have any other type of accent that deviates from the standard American English.

Speaker 2:
[12:48] Exactly. And then it also kind of becomes like, I know for me, I try to have such a talk with my students and even go through other examples. Like, if you are an anchor in Miami and you are properly saying the Spanish words correctly, but then you move to certain other places and they're like, no, we don't want you to talk like that. We don't like your quote unquote accent now. So it's just making that decision to say, okay, well, this is how I speak. I can't work anywhere that doesn't want me to sound how I speak. Like, this is just me and this is the only version that you can get.

Speaker 1:
[13:28] Yeah. You get me and that's what it is. This is really making me think about Aisha Roscoe. She's a black woman from North Carolina. She's also the host of Weekend Edition Sunday and the weekend host of NPR's Up First podcast. And some public radio listeners have criticized the way she talks. She speaks differently. She speaks basically not that standard American English we hear from other NPR hosts. And she has responded by saying that people don't expect an authority to sound like her.

Speaker 3:
[14:01] They don't expect to hear my voice reporting on Gaza. They don't expect to hear my voice reporting on the president or what have you. And so if my voice expands, what people think of when they think of authority, then I am very happy to do that. Right? Like I'm very happy to do that.

Speaker 1:
[14:23] You know, I really love hearing Aisha Roscoe. It's so affirming. It's so, I mean, you know, for me, I'm like, I'm trying to get in radio regardless, you know, but then to hear her, I'm like, oh, I can actually do this and sound the way that I want to sound. You know, it is really refreshing. I wonder how you relate to that.

Speaker 2:
[14:40] Oh, I absolutely love Aisha Roscoe. And she recently posted a video about how she was doing a story on oil. And people were emailing her saying, like, you're not pronouncing oil right. She said, but did you know, did you understand what I was saying? Did you know that I meant oil? She said, then I said oil just fine. You knew what I was saying. That's how I say it. And that's how I'm gonna keep saying it, right? Cause it's different if like, maybe if you didn't know what I was saying, but you know what I'm saying. You just don't like how I say it. Now that's different. You don't get to not like it. I mean, you cannot like it, right? Technically you can't, but that is not maybe, that can't be something that is gonna affect me or change me, especially since I actually did try to change it and I couldn't. So, hey, that's, can't change it even if I want. And it's funny because when people would stop me and say, do you work at WBEZ? It would be so wild because they would say, oh, I recognize your voice. And it's like, how did you recognize my voice? I might not have been on the radio for the past month. But it's also a reminder that you are unique and people are listening to you and either they're gonna like it, they're not gonna have a feeling either way, or they're gonna hate it. But either way, there's nothing you can do about that.

Speaker 1:
[16:00] Yeah, and they're gonna remember you. I mean, I will always remember, you know, I mean, as soon as I heard I was like, who? You know? And, you know, yes. So I, again, I can name so many others where as soon as I hear an accent that deviates, I'm like, who is this? What's going on? Like, let my ears perk up. And I'm like, what are they talking about? And wow, this is so affirming.

Speaker 2:
[16:23] And I hope that it does mean that like younger people, especially are feeling like they don't have to change themselves, right? Because you are who you are and how you speak, is not just you. It does mean community. It does mean your family. It does mean all of these things that come with you. Like, I was thinking about, I had this college professor and he's passed away now, but he was from Barbados. And I remember, I will never forget his voice and how he talked about being home and catching and eating fresh fish. And it's just like his voice, you know? Like, I'm so glad that he brought his full self with him to the classroom. And that I got to meet him. Like, if we are coming to this work and we especially are in something like radio, where it is a little bit more of an intimate art form where people are hearing you, you gotta bring yourself to it.

Speaker 1:
[17:35] Arionne Nettles is a journalism professor at Florida A&M University. She's also an author, reporter, and Curious City contributor. Arionne, thank you.

Speaker 2:
[17:44] Thank you so much, Erin.

Speaker 1:
[17:51] A quick update before we let you go. We're changing how we're doing things a little bit here on Curious City. Instead of two related episodes every week, we're gonna put out one longer podcast episode every Wednesday starting in May. What's not gonna change is that the episodes will still be based on your questions about Chicago and the region. So keep them coming. This episode of Curious City was produced by me and Justin Bull. Susie Ahn is our editor. Curious City is a production of WBEZ Chicago and is a part of the NPR Network. Once again, send us your questions at curiousity at wbez.org or visit us at wbez.org/curiouscity. I'm Arionne Ahlen. Thank you for listening. I'll talk to you next week.

Speaker 4:
[18:50] I'm education reporter Sarah Karp, and I know how much Chicago parents care about their kids' education. That's why we want to hear your top priorities ahead of this fall's school board elections. Let us know at wbez.org/survey.