transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:04] In the final months of 1529, Cardinal Thomas Wolsey waits abandoned at Esher, his enemies gathering to cement his downfall. Having been forced to concede his beloved Hampton Court to Henry VIII, he is now all but alone in a cold, damp and empty palace. On his journey, people had gathered on the banks of the Thames to watch in expectation of the famous Cardinal being taken to the tower. In fact, it would be another year until he was arrested for high treason. And Wolsey, evasive to the last, died before they could get to the tower and his final ruin. But what led to Wolsey's downfall? And was it inevitable? As the Cardinal saw it, he was loyal until the end, lamenting, If I had served God as diligently as I have done the king, he would not have given me over in my grey hairs. So how did a butcher's boy from Ipswich climb so high to fall so far? And who would replace such a man? The role of Henry VIII's Chief Ministers has long been debated. Men from non-aristocratic backgrounds, whose rise to the highest civil role in the land, would end in dramatic circumstances, at the hands of a king who is often called a tyrant. This episode and the other episodes in this series, will track the rise and fall of Henry's trusted men, the three Thomases, Thomas Wolsey, Thomas Moore and Thomas Cromwell. Were these men the architects behind Henry's achievements, or were they fodder for the machinations of court politics? How did they climb so high? Who profited when they fell? And what impact did they have on Henry's reign and legacy? I'm Chief Historian Tracy Borman. Join me for this first episode as we explore the life and downfall of Henry VIII's first and longest serving Chief Minister, Cardinal Thomas Wolsey. Well, I'm delighted to say that today I am joined by historian, author, broadcaster, Elizabeth Norton, and a real favourite on the Historic Royal Palaces Podcast. Elizabeth, welcome.

Speaker 2:
[02:48] Thank you, such a pleasure to be here.

Speaker 1:
[02:50] It's quite a nice surrounding, isn't it? It is.

Speaker 2:
[02:52] I mean, you could do worse, I think.

Speaker 1:
[02:55] We're sitting enthroned in the Great Hall at Hampton Court Palace. What does it feel like being here?

Speaker 2:
[03:01] It's just fabulous. I mean, it's so lovely to be here when it's quiet and just sort of walking around and exploring. And of course, it's so associated with Cardinal Wolsey. It's just wonderful to kind of get a sense of Henry VIII and the Royal Court, but also Wolsey's presence here.

Speaker 1:
[03:15] It was his palace originally, after all.

Speaker 2:
[03:18] It was indeed. So very much of the Tudor part of the palace was built by Wolsey. I mean, it was this lavish, lavish palace, really too grand for him. And I think that's what Henry found later on, because just, I mean, the most magnificent palace in England, created by Wolsey, who had impeccable taste and liked to spend, spend, spend with his money. It was said of him that he could change his tapestries every week, which was unheard of in the period.

Speaker 1:
[03:44] So you can completely imagine Henry might be a bit jealous of Hampton Court, really.

Speaker 2:
[03:49] Just a bit, I think. I mean, of course, he had apartments here, so he could see it for himself. And when you think Henry's nearest palace was Esher Palace, which is just down the road, really, and it's not a patch on Hampton Court.

Speaker 1:
[04:01] Probably sowed a few seeds of trouble for the future. It would be great if you could give me a sense of Wolsey's background. Where did he come from? We know that he rises to become the most powerful man in England next to the king, but where did it all start?

Speaker 2:
[04:17] So, it started in Ipswich, and he very much wasn't born at all for the place he ended up. I mean, I think people would have been absolutely shocked if they'd seen young Thomas Wolsey running around Ipswich in the 1470s. He's born in around 1470, 1471. His father is a tavern keeper and also a butcher in the town, so he's pretty low born for the court. And really, he's intelligent. He seems to have risen to his intelligence, and people seem to have noticed this early on in his life. And I think throughout his life, we can see just how clever he is. He's always sort of one step ahead until he isn't, really.

Speaker 1:
[04:53] OK, so he's clearly a very precocious young man. Isn't he called the boy bachelor? He goes to Oxford very early.

Speaker 2:
[05:01] He does, yes. He's educated in the grammar school in Ipswich, and then he moves to Magdalen College in Oxford, takes his bachelor's degree when he's about 15 years old. I mean, loads of people don't even graduate when they go to Oxford, so that's incredibly impressive in the time.

Speaker 1:
[05:16] So initially, he seems destined for the church. Is that right?

Speaker 2:
[05:19] Yeah, so I think that was probably always the plan, but he seems to have been a bit reluctant. We can read this from the sources. His father's will, for example, very pointedly implies that Thomas Wolsey needs to get on with it and become a priest, and so there is a sense that he doesn't necessarily want to take holy orders. He does, however. It's a sensible decision. It's much easier to rise, for a clever man to rise through the church than it is through the secular world, through the ranks and nobility.

Speaker 1:
[05:46] We painted a lovely picture there of Wolsey's early years and how precocious he was. He was clearly, he stood out in his local community, but even so, very, very lowly born. So it's quite a leap to surely get to places like this, to Hampton Court and work for the king. How does that happen? How does he first become introduced to Henry VIII?

Speaker 2:
[06:10] So it takes time. As you would expect from someone that low born, he doesn't have the connections, but he certainly starts to build them. He stays at Magdalen for a time. He serves as a bursar at the college for a time. And then he takes a job with the Marquis of Dorset to tutor his children. So this is his first big connection. The Marquis of Dorset is obviously connected to the royal family. He's been the stepson of Edward IV, for example. So it gives him an in, if you like, into royal life to some extent. Wolsey is given a benefit as a reward by Dorset. And clearly, he's not particularly... He doesn't want to just stay in the countryside being a local parish priest. He's got bigger things on his mind. But he continues to network. And I think that's so important to Wolsey's rise. He knows people. He knows how to respond to people. He becomes a chaplain to the Archbishop of Canterbury, Henry Dean, who's quite a short-lived archbishop of Canterbury, but serves as his chief mourner and also his executor. So you can see even them, people see Wolsey, and they can see that he knows what he's doing. He's a safe pair of hands. He then is patronised by Sir Richard Nanfan, who is a royal servant. And that brings him to the attention of Henry VII.

Speaker 1:
[07:18] Ah, okay. So we're talking about the first Henry, the first Tudor Henry, at least. But it's all about who you know and what you do with those connections. And so Wolsey has an in with Dorset, as you say, that's a really good one. He has the ability, but he definitely makes the most of it. He's pushing himself forward.

Speaker 2:
[07:38] Absolutely. I mean, he could very much rest on his laurels. He could say, I've got these benefits, I've got, you know, actually has several parishes that he couldn't draw the income from. He could live very happily in the countryside. And yet he doesn't. He builds on his connections. And every step you can just see him moving a little bit further up the social scale.

Speaker 1:
[07:55] So he works first for Henry VIII's father, Henry VII. How does he get on? Does he come to the notice of the king?

Speaker 2:
[08:03] Yeah, so he's very successful as a royal chaplain. It's towards the end of Henry VII's reign, but he's sent on some embassies. He actually impresses the king because he goes on an embassy to Flanders and actually does it all in three and a half days. And actually, Wolsey's biographer, George Cavendish, who serves in his household and seems to have interviewed Wolsey to produce the biography, actually talks of this with pride, you know, how shocked Henry VII was. You know, he's clearly out there to impress.

Speaker 1:
[08:28] Yeah, he doesn't hang about. That's quite some journey to make.

Speaker 2:
[08:31] It is, isn't it? You can imagine him. I mean, as a churchman, really, he ought to be riding on a mule.

Speaker 1:
[08:35] Well, yes, exactly. But OK, so he's a man in a hurry, but he has also put in the legwork. They say, you know, it takes years to be an overnight success. So he doesn't just come from nowhere. He's lowly born, but he's working his way assiduously to the top, isn't he?

Speaker 2:
[08:53] Yeah, he works incredibly hard. And I think that's one thing you can say about Wolsey. He works really, really hard. Everything that he has was the result of years of networking, building the connections, proving his worth as well.

Speaker 1:
[09:09] Well, Henry VIII comes to the throne 1509. He's just 17 years old, very different to his late father. Pleasure loving, exuberant, not that interested in affairs of state. So in steps, Wolsey, and it's ideal, isn't it? Because Wolsey is known for getting things done. So he's exactly the sort of man that the new king needs.

Speaker 2:
[09:33] Yeah, absolutely. He's absolutely the right man at the right time. He's older than Henry VIII. So I think he has this kind of air of authority about him that Henry likes. He likes to be guided to some extent at this stage in his career. And Wolsey is just so good at the administration and stuff that's really boring that a king has to do. But Wolsey will do it for you.

Speaker 1:
[09:54] Of course. And enjoys that because he knows that with responsibility comes power. So as you say, right man, right time. And perhaps if he'd appeared in Henry's life later in the rain, things might not quite have worked out in the same way. But what sort of responsibility does he start to accrue? How does his career develop once Henry VIII is on the throne?

Speaker 2:
[10:21] So I think initially he begins to prove himself. He clearly says to the king, give this to me, I'll handle it. And then he does. For example, if Henry wants to invade France, Worsley will ensure that there are enough provisions for the army. And that's a big job in itself, getting the food over the channel, getting enough ships to take the troops over. All of that, Worsley will do for you. So he really proves himself to Henry VIII. He's incredibly good at foreign relations. He's good with people. He can talk to the king, he can talk to members of the foreign dynasty. So he's really, really good at that. So he does begin to rise.

Speaker 1:
[10:57] That's what I was going to ask you about, actually, about the personality, because it's one thing to be an able administrator, but that doesn't necessarily secure you the great favor and trust of a king like Henry VIII. I get the feeling Wolsey was just likable. He was charming.

Speaker 2:
[11:13] Yeah, I mean, actually, there are absolutely people who don't like Wolsey. Often they're jealous of his rise or the fact that he's of low birth. But actually, the people that knew him seem to be genuinely quite fond of him. Henry certainly, they do have this relationship. It's not really a father-son relationship as you'd get with some of the other ministers because, of course, Henry didn't know Wolsey in childhood, so he comes to him when he's an adult king. But they do have a close relationship. And Wolsey's 20 years older than Henry, so I think there is a bit of seniority there. But I think they become quite good friends. And they're not friends that would be necessarily socializing together outside of work. But Henry does call Wolsey a friend in some of his correspondents, which he doesn't do to most people, actually. So I think they do have this very close bond.

Speaker 1:
[12:00] And he calls him, of course, my own dear cardinal, which is a real sign of his esteem and affection. There is a lovely account, I don't know how true it is, that when Wolsey was trying to manipulate Henry and get him to agree to something and Henry was being difficult, he would suddenly just show him a rich jewel or something to distract him like a child. And it would work. Henry would say, oh, yes, whatever you want. That's fine. And just show me that jewel.

Speaker 2:
[12:24] Yeah. I mean, Wolsey knew Henry better than Henry knew himself, I think, because he's so good with people. He knew exactly the kind of man he was dealing with. He likes a bit of sparkle. He likes a bit of bling. He's clever. And you can't entirely fob Henry VIII off. But if you take the work off his shoulders and get it done well, he'll be very happy with that.

Speaker 1:
[12:46] Now, how much credit should we give Henry himself for talent spotting Wolsey? Because that's often quoted that, you know, here there is this butchers boy from Ipswich, a real nobody, but Henry spots his potential and he elevates him to this exalted position. Do you think that's fair?

Speaker 2:
[13:09] I think it's a mixture of things. So by the time Henry VIII comes to the throne, Wolsey is very much in the orbit of Bishop Richard Fox, so the Bishop of Winchester, who is one of the old guard, you know, who had served Henry VII, one of these elder statesmen. So I think it's very helpful for Wolsey that he's still building these connections, people who will push him forward. So I think Henry does recognize his talent, but he's not picking Wolsey out of obscurity. Wolsey has already arrived at court. He's already showing people what he can do. And crucially, important people of court are showing Henry what Wolsey can do.

Speaker 1:
[13:44] Now, Wolsey is a true polymath, isn't he? Because he has his secular career, he has his ecclesiastical career. He's also a very, very skilled diplomat. And really the zenith of his diplomatic career has to be the spectacular showpiece that was the field of cloth of gold in 1520. Can you tell me a bit more about that?

Speaker 2:
[14:07] Yeah. I mean, this is the high point of Wolsey's life, I think. This is the moment where he had so truly made it on an international stage. Yeah. So, I mean, effectively, the field of the cloth of gold is a diplomatic sort of, it's almost kind of, it's an attempt by Henry and Francis of France to show how peaceful they can be. They've given up being warlike, so now they're going to show just how peaceful they are, and it's quite competitive. And it's all orchestrated by Wolsey. So it's essentially a peace conference, which obviously you kind of don't think people have used back in the 16th century. So they spend a huge amount of money. It's a perpetual peace, so they're going to be at peace forever with this meeting. Henry sails to Calais, which of course England owns. Francis comes down and they set up camp. They have these glorious, it's called the Field of the Cross of Golds, because of course the tents are golden. I mean, they have a flat pack palace that they put up there and they have a cathedral that they build out of tents in the field, which Wolsey uses. And all of this admin, this is Wolsey. This is Wolsey setting this up. This is Wolsey talking to Francis, getting it done. Partly because his role in the church, he's a cardinal by this stage, which means that he does have an independent identity away from England. He has an authority around the world, in France, in the Empire. So he is able to have this kind of separate prestige. But he builds this up. And although it's very much the Henry and Francis show, they wrestle together, they joust together, it's also very much the Wolsey show. And he arrives with 300 servants, which is a huge number for one man's retinue. He meets with the King of France before proceedings open. So actually the first events of the Field of the Cloth of Gold are all about Wolsey.

Speaker 1:
[15:47] He's getting dangerously above his station, I would say, at this stage. Certainly in the eyes of his enemies, these blue-blooded members of the court, he must have deeply resented this commoner. Now acting as if he's presiding, well, he is presiding over this lavish meeting between two kings.

Speaker 2:
[16:07] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if you ask Wolsey, he would say that he has a huge retinue, he wears the rich clothing, he has the tapestries, he has the jewels, because you need to show your status. It's important if you're a prince of the church, you're Lord Chancellor of England, you need to show that you have this status, that you're wealthy, you're successful. But of course, everyone else looking at it thinks, you were the butcher's boy from Ipswich. What's gone on?

Speaker 1:
[16:31] Yeah, of course. Well, it is a triumph, even if the piece isn't quite as perpetual as it was intended to be. The Field of Cloth of Gold, undoubtedly, it went off pretty much without a hitch. It was glorious, it was magnificent, just as Henry VIII needed it to be. So big tick for Wolsey. Is Henry now utterly reliant on him?

Speaker 2:
[16:54] Yeah, by this stage, Wolsey is absolutely the chief minister. He has his finger in everything. I mean, there's a famous poem by John Skelton who really doesn't like Wolsey, which is, why come ye not to court, to the King's Court or Hampton Court? I'm massively paraphrasing, but he's basically saying there's this rival court. If you want to get something done, you don't go to the king, you go to Cardinal Wolsey. And I think Henry is very reliant on him. It's quite difficult to unpick the relationship because Wolsey's so good at getting things done. There is a sense that to some extent, Henry is saying, I want this to happen, and then Wolsey gets it done. So it's not always Wolsey having the independent policy, but certainly he is influencing the king quite strongly, particularly in relation to foreign policy.

Speaker 1:
[17:38] Do you think there's a bit of codependency going on here, or is that just putting too modern a spin on it? On Henry's part, he does seem quite heavily reliant on the cardinal.

Speaker 2:
[17:49] He is, yeah. I mean, I think we're still at the stage where Henry hasn't necessarily come into his own as an independent monarch. I mean, you can see it in the palaces they build. At this stage, Henry is very much taking on Wolsey's projects, for example, with Bridewell Palace, building sort of old style. It's only really later that Henry starts to come into his own. So I think there is a co-dependency. Wolsey, of course, needs a king. He does have this independent church authority, but that's not going to get him very far if he loses royal favour. But Henry's court would collapse if Cardinal Wolsey wasn't organising everything.

Speaker 1:
[18:22] That's really interesting. Do you have any specific examples of that?

Speaker 2:
[18:26] Yes, so it's quite difficult to unpick. I mean, certainly there are policies that are close to Henry's own heart. The invasion of France is a clear one back in 15. So it started in 1512, didn't go very well. Then Wolsey was brought on board to deal with the logistics, to sort out the army in 1513. Then it went incredibly well. So I think that's an example of Henry wanting something. Henry really wanted to be the all-conquering hero. And of course, that means invading France in the 16th century. And so Wolsey fixes it, gets it done. There is a sense that their policies don't always align. One of these actually is in, Henry takes the city of Tornay during this invasion. And Wolsey actually is very keen to become Bishop of Tornay. And that would be his first bishopric. And Henry sort of agrees, but they're never quite able to get it done. And I think there's a sense that Henry is less, less keen to do it, less involved in it than Wolsey is. It is an example where Wolsey is perhaps disappointed in the king.

Speaker 1:
[19:29] Mm, okay. So there are early signs of trouble brewing perhaps for the future. But for the most part, it sounds like a highly effective partnership because Wolsey fulfills a real need for Henry. He enables Henry to be the king he wants to be, and he can do all the boring stuff behind the scenes. We mustn't forget of course that as well as being Henry's chief minister, Wolsey was a cardinal, as you say, and a papal legate. So what did this mean exactly? And do we know anything about Wolsey's relationship with the European Reformation?

Speaker 2:
[20:06] Yeah. So Wolsey of course becomes a cardinal in 1515, later on becomes papal legate. Actually with some opposition, Pope Leo X doesn't like Wolsey very much. I think he can see the ambition. I mean, there is talk at one stage of Wolsey becoming pope. It's unlikely he would ever secure his election, but certainly he's got his ambitions in the church. And being a cardinal is, you know, below the pope, that's the highest rank of the church. I mean, I think it's quite difficult for him to some extent to marry his church career to his secular office. And I think this is another area where perhaps he and Henry are at slightly cross purposes. So Henry thinks, yep, papal legate, this is great. Basically, I can tell the pope what to do, at least in my own kingdom. I mean, it kind of makes Henry pope in England to some extent because he's expecting Wolsey to do what he says. But also Wolsey, of course, does have this loyalty to the pope. And he is a churchman. He's perhaps not the most diligent of churchmen at times, but he does have this loyalty to the pope. I mean, it does leave him open to a charge of prime and urey, which is where you prioritize someone else's laws to the king's laws, because he does effectively have two masters.

Speaker 1:
[21:20] Ooh, there's a gathering storm. I get the sense here that there is constant conflict, surely, for Wolsey between his church role and his political role. And we know perhaps that that is going to lead to trouble in future. But you mentioned there about him not necessarily being the most diligent of churchmen. And I would like to just explore Wolsey's private life. Of course, he wasn't supposed to have one, was he? As Cardinal and representative of the Catholic Church, this was not an age where priests were allowed to marry. But Wolsey did have a personal life.

Speaker 2:
[21:55] He did, indeed. Yeah, and absolutely he shouldn't have done. He was relatively open about it. So he had effectively a sort of common law wife, Joan Lark, who lived with him for some time, bore his children. So he is the father of two children, Thomas Winter, and also a girl called Dorothy, who later becomes a nun. And Thomas Winter is officially Wolsey's nephew in the tradition of the Catholic Church, the absolute definition of nepotism. And Wolsey does indeed promote Thomas Winter's career.

Speaker 1:
[22:26] But he gets away with this. It's quite shocking.

Speaker 2:
[22:28] Yeah, I mean, absolutely. Quite a lot of cardinals. I mean, even the Pope, of course, but slightly earlier, during Alexander IV, during Wolsey's lifetime, had quite openly had a family of children. So it's not that uncommon, but it is quite shocking. And, you know, he's pretty open about it.

Speaker 1:
[22:48] But Henry, at least, is willing to turn a blind eye because, of course, Wolsey is his beloved cardinal and very, very useful to him. And what about the Reformation, this seismic change that is sweeping across Europe? Wolsey is a bastion of the traditional Catholic Church. What role, if any, does he play in this European Reformation?

Speaker 2:
[23:12] So, I mean, on the face of it, he's absolutely kind of, you know, the face of the Church, you know, the traditional Church. Henry is, of course, incredibly opposed to Martin Luther, writes a book about just refuting Martin Luther. So Cardinal Wolsey is, of course, he's not interested in religious reform, as Luther puts it. He does, however, begin closing some monasteries, actually, in the period. And that's, I think, worth bringing out, actually. You know, Thomas Cromwell, who works for Wolsey, is actually involved in closing some of these religious houses. Wolsey does it primarily to try and build up funds for his pet projects. He's building a college in Ipswich, and he's also building Cardinal College in Oxford, which is intended to rival the king's own, sort of, foundations and also really to be his lasting legacy. So he's clearly not as wedded to monasticism or the traditional church in some respects, but in general, he is very much standing against. He's a pillar of the church, he's a cardinal, he's the prince of the church, and also the papal legate.

Speaker 1:
[24:12] Well, what could possibly go wrong? And that's what we're coming to now, because quite often I think this is a theme that unites all three of the Thomas's in our series. It's exactly at the moment where they seem invincible that things start to unravel. And that's what happens with Wolsey, isn't it? Because there is a gathering storm in the form of a certain woman, familiar in these parts, called Anne Boleyn. She first arrives at court in 1522. She doesn't immediately catch Henry's eye. But during that time, Henry is having doubts, isn't he? About his long-standing marriage to Catherine of Aragon.

Speaker 2:
[24:55] Yes. So, I mean, Anne Boleyn is very much Wolsey's down for. And I think he could see it to some extent. We know that he called her the Night Crow.

Speaker 1:
[25:04] I love that.

Speaker 2:
[25:05] Which is just fabulous. And also complained about a serpentine enemy whispering in the ear of the king. Again, you know, and these are his kind of private thoughts. They're in his biography by his gentleman usher, George Cavendish. So they're probably true. It's the kind of gossipy detail that's just great to have. They clearly have this difficult relationship from the start. And he is believed to have ended her engagement to Henry Percy, the heir to the Earl of Northumberland earlier in the reign. Something that she holds a grudge about. And he wasn't doing that necessarily on the king's behalf. He was simply doing it because she wasn't good enough to marry Henry Percy. But clearly she bore a grudge.

Speaker 1:
[25:42] Yes, he made an enemy of the wrong woman there, didn't he? So why are things going wrong between Henry and Catherine of Aragon? And what part, if any, does Wolsey play in that?

Speaker 2:
[25:54] So by the 1520s, it's clear that Catherine of Aragon isn't going to bear the king as son. They've had several children, but only Mary has survived. And well, from Catherine's perspective, she's the daughter of a reigning queen, the queen of Castile. This is fine. But from Henry's perspective, it's an absolute disaster. She hasn't conceived a child since 1518, and it was pretty clear that it's not going to happen for them. She has rapidly aged. Henry has moved away from her, really. I mean, I think, you know, it's a classic example of a couple beginning to move apart. And I think there have been some questions raised about the validity of the marriage, and they were back at the start of it, to some extent. Catherine had been previously married to Henry's brother, Prince Arthur. And really, that should bar the marriage. They are way too closely related, as far as the church is concerned. But of course, they had a papal dispensation, and that should have been enough. But certainly, it's enough to raise questions about the marriage.

Speaker 1:
[26:50] And how does Wolsey get on with Catherine? Does he sympathise with her, or is he one step ahead and thinking, hmm, I need to help Henry out of this situation?

Speaker 2:
[27:00] So Wolsey is incredibly loyal to Henry. I mean, it's so ridiculous with Henry. Wolsey is incredibly loyal. Wolsey always does what he wants, or at least what he thinks the king would want. So he doesn't get on particularly well with Catherine. He's never got on that well with Catherine. I mean, he's actually in the unenviable position that both Catherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn hate him, which is a rare thing they actually agree on.

Speaker 1:
[27:24] He's caught between a rock and a hard place there, I think.

Speaker 2:
[27:27] I mean, when Catherine makes a reference in, you know, she makes a speech to Henry, it makes a reference to how she's loved his friends just for him. That's Wolsey, really, she's talking about.

Speaker 1:
[27:36] Yeah, okay. So what happens then? Henry is increasingly fixated not just with Anne Boleyn, but with the need for a male heir. As you say, he doesn't see things as Catherine sees them in terms of it being okay to leave your crown to a woman, his daughter Mary. So there's something called the Great Matter, isn't there? Can you tell us about that?

Speaker 2:
[27:58] Yes, so the King's Great Matter begins in May 1527 when Wolsey actually opens a secret ecclesiastical court in London to try the validity of the marriage. So this is the first step towards an annulment of the Catherine of Aragon marriage, and so Henry can marry Anne Boleyn. Because in these days, you can't really get a divorce. You have to get an annulment, which means you have to prove that the marriage is invalid and has always been invalid. And so that's what they're trying to prove. And of course, the Bible assists in that Leviticus says that is an absolute prohibition to a man marrying his brother's wife. It's a bit more complicated than that because unfortunately, Deuteronomy actually orders a man to marry his deceased brother's wife. So Henry is picking and choosing, and Wolsey is of course assisting in this. But the Great Matter, which rumbles on for years, is all about trying to get a papal annulment because Catherine, when she hears about the annulment proceedings, she appeals to Rome, which means that only the Pope can hear the annulment suit. So this is really where Wolsey comes in, because he's this international statesman. He's got connections in the Church. We're now on Pope Clement VII, who doesn't dislike Wolsey as much as Leo did. So it's really to Cardinal Wolsey that Henry turns, because he thinks he's always fixed things for me before. He can just go along to Rome and it will be fine.

Speaker 1:
[29:15] And Wolsey tries, then, from what you're saying, because often it's presented as Wolsey's against the idea of an annulment. He wants to be Pope, doesn't want to rock the boat there, so he obstructs it. But he is trying to make it happen.

Speaker 2:
[29:27] Yeah, and I think by this stage, Wolsey's probably accepted he's not going to be Pope. It would be a very difficult thing for an absentee Cardinal, one who's not based in Rome, to really aspire to the papacy. Be quite difficult for him, because he'd have to give up his entire life in England as well. He's probably not going to get elected. So I think the idea of him obstructing it, certainly that comes out in contemporary sources towards the end of the great matter. But I think actually it's slightly unfair on Wolsey. I think he does try. His heart may not be entirely in it, and certainly he doesn't really want to bring Anne Boleyn to the throne. But again, he fixes things for Henry. So he thinks he's going to fix this.

Speaker 1:
[30:05] So ultimately, there is a court here, isn't there, where Cardinal Campeggio comes over to hear the case in England. But really, that's the last straw, isn't it? It's clearly just not going to work.

Speaker 2:
[30:19] Yeah, absolutely. So they have the Blackfriars trial. It's Wolsey and Campeggio. And Wolsey's worked with Campeggio before, and they don't necessarily get on that well. But what nobody in England knows, and probably Wolsey doesn't know, is Campeggio doesn't have the authority to actually rule on the annulment. It's all a sham, really, to try and keep Henry happy. And Wolsey really takes the fall for this. He's the Cardinal based in England. He's the face of the Catholic Church. He's the papal legate, and he hasn't given Henry what he wants.

Speaker 1:
[30:47] And of course, now that serpent Anne Boleyn is well and truly gunning for him. Is there any sense that Wolsey underestimates Anne, that he thinks, oh, she's just another of the love interests. I've seen quite a few of those come and go.

Speaker 2:
[31:03] Yeah, I think absolutely. I think he entirely underestimates Anne. And at first, she's quite friendly to him. We've got some letters that she writes in her own hand, but also, I mean, there's almost an inherent threat, one of them, to Wolsey. She actually gets the king to write a postscript in his own hand, which is very much saying to Wolsey, I've got the king with me here. So I think he doesn't necessarily see it at first. He thinks, you know, she's just some girl. The king might well get bored. I'll get the annulment, but whether it will be Anne, who knows? And it's a mistake he makes.

Speaker 1:
[31:35] So Wolsey clearly sees the need for an annulment. He realizes that Henry, as only the second Tudor monarch, he needs a male heir to secure the dynasty. But he has somebody other than Anne Boleyn in mind for the king, doesn't he?

Speaker 2:
[31:48] He does. And I think he really thinks Anne Boleyn's a bit of a passing fad. Wolsey's always been more French-orientated in his foreign policy. He always pushes the king slightly more towards France, with Catherine of Aragon, of course, pushing towards Spain. So for Wolsey, he's going to find Henry a French princess to marry. Much more sensible than Anne Boleyn. They can build an alliance, build on their foreign policy, produce some sons, and he doesn't have to work for Anne Boleyn.

Speaker 1:
[32:14] It seems to me that Anne Boleyn is Wolsey's first and last mistake, really. He just, for once, misjudges the situation.

Speaker 2:
[32:21] It's where the networking goes wrong. And really, it had already gone wrong. He's quite unlucky in that he's already fallen out with Anne Boleyn back before she was important. Big mistake on Wolsey's part.

Speaker 1:
[32:32] Yeah. Made an enemy of the wrong person there. So, Beth, how inevitable was Wolsey's downfall, both in terms of this impossible task he'd been set to get the Pope to agree to an annulment, but also with Anne Boleyn in the mix and the agency that she had?

Speaker 2:
[32:50] Yeah, I mean, it's a mixed picture. He was never going to secure a papal annulment, and I think he knew that pretty quickly. He knew how papal politics worked. The Pope was very much in the pocket of Catherine's nephew, the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V. Understandably, of course, he just sacked Rome in the summer of 1527. The Pope was not going to go against him. Wolsey knew that, so he takes these journeys to Rome. He canvases opinion, but he knows it's never going to work. And he doesn't seem to have come up with a solution. Possibly, if he had longer, he could have come up with a solution because, of course, a solution is eventually found, but Wolsey isn't able to do it. So I think he's aware it's impossible. Whether he would have fallen if it wasn't for the influence of a party working against him, I think, is another matter because Henry was still quite enmeshed with Wolsey at this stage. Earlier in Wolsey's career, there hadn't really been an organised grouping against him at court. He certainly has enemies, people who don't like him, don't like him for his low birth, don't like him for really the way he presents himself. But during this period, of course, Anne Boleyn, she has a party around her, the Boleyn family, they're all quite interested in religious reform. She also has her uncle, the Duke of Norfolk, and she has a difficult relationship with him. But certainly he is no friend of Wolsey's either. So there is now a party working against Wolsey at the same time. Certainly he would be losing favour with the king at any event, because he can't do, I mean, his job is to fix things and he can't fix this. But I think it is sped up and probably becomes much, much worse for him when he has Anne Boleyn and members of her family, other members of the old nobility at court working against him.

Speaker 1:
[34:34] He's sort of caught in a pincer movement, isn't he, really?

Speaker 2:
[34:37] He is, and it's really when his low birth comes out. This is the point where he doesn't have the family background. He doesn't have the aristocratic cushioning that these other people have. He's a self-made man.

Speaker 1:
[34:47] So he's more dispensable.

Speaker 2:
[34:49] Yeah, absolutely. And he's been very, very useful to Henry, but he's not useful anymore.

Speaker 1:
[34:55] And I would like to just as well mention at this point, the other Thomas in our series, Thomas Cromwell, because by now, he and Wolsey have a very tight relationship, don't they?

Speaker 2:
[35:05] They do. They do. Surprisingly so, actually. You wouldn't necessarily think how Thomas Cromwell ends up that he would have started out with Thomas Wolsey, but he very much does. Thomas Cromwell also knows the value of networking, and Thomas Wolsey knows the value of clever talent. Famously in Wolf Hall, of course, Cardinal Wolsey says to Thomas Cromwell, you're even lower born than I am, which is true, but he very much takes him under his wing. He first carries out some legal tasks for Wolsey, but by the time Wolsey is full, he's very much on Wolsey's personal council. He's one of his closest royal servants, and they do have a very affectionate relationship. We can see this in the fact that Thomas Cromwell will later on support Wolsey's children, which is a really interesting touch. Thomas Cromwell, of course, is Thomas Cromwell. He's not going to fall with Wolsey, but he certainly doesn't do anything that harms Cardinal in this period. And in fact, George Cavendish again, who is present during this, actually says that he finds Cromwell weeping at one stage during Wolsey's fall. So they do have this powerful and strong relationship. And I suspect that Wolsey wouldn't particularly blame Cromwell for surviving because he certainly doesn't turn on his master as many others will do.

Speaker 1:
[36:16] In fact, he speaks for him, doesn't he? He comes to court and tries to remind Henry how much he loves Wolsey, how much he owes to him. Let's look at Wolsey when he's been effectively banished to York. He's writing lots of letters to Cromwell, his man, sort of asking for all sorts of things that you wouldn't think that somebody in his position would ask for. He wants pheasant and quail and all of these different things. Cromwell is trying to give him a bit of a reality check. Does Wolsey think he's going to get back into Henry's good books?

Speaker 2:
[36:50] I think he probably does. So he hasn't been arrested. He's been sent to his diocese and he's Archbishop of York. So that's quite a comfortable position to be in. He's by no means been exiled to obscurity. So I think he's still trying to live in accordance with his status. He's still a cardinal. He's the Archbishop. Of course he wants to eat pheasant for his dinner. It's part of his status. It's part of the show he puts on. So he knows he's in trouble, but I think he thinks he'll get out of it. I think he's very, very shocked when finally the arrest comes.

Speaker 1:
[37:23] It's almost like he had sort of dominated the young king, but now that king has grown up and now he's listening to other people besides Wolsey.

Speaker 2:
[37:31] Yeah. They have such a history. I think Wolsey would look back and think, I knew you when you were a teenager. I've helped you. Surely you'll help me. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[37:40] He wasn't reckoning on Henry being such a psychopath. And what did the ordinary people of England think of Wolsey? So, for example, when he journeys up to York on Henry's orders, do they welcome him with great festivities and cheers and reverence? Or actually, are they holding him responsible for all of these rather uncomfortable, worrying changes that are starting to sweep across Europe and England?

Speaker 2:
[38:07] So he's a bit of an unknown quantity, of course, at York and also in the north of England. So they're not used to having the Archbishop of York, Wolsey, there and present. So I think that is quite surprising for people. In general, it's difficult times. There is a lot of change happening, a lot of rumour floating around. Catherine of Aragon is very, very popular, and Wolsey is largely blamed for what is happening, along with Anne Boleyn, of course. So I think he's not getting the support that he would like to see. He's this great, substantial figure, and actually people are pretty ambivalent towards him. You see him as the architect of his own downfall.

Speaker 1:
[38:44] People like people who serve Henry VIII to stay in their box, and Wolsey doesn't really fit, does he? He should have really been a churchman in Suffolk instead of rising from butcher's boy to chief minister.

Speaker 2:
[38:59] Yeah, I mean, he's much too big for the box that he should be in. Absolutely. And again, I mean, it's such a class-conscious world. They don't like it when people rise above their station. And you think, you know, if you're a peasant in Yorkshire, you think, good on the butcher's son from Suffolk, but that really isn't what people think at all. And other ministers, Thomas Cromwell particularly, will find this.

Speaker 1:
[39:21] It's not a meritocracy, is it, at all?

Speaker 2:
[39:24] No, not at all. Henry is always revered. You know, in spite of the things he does, it's normally blamed on his ministers. And certainly this has been the case during Wolsey's career.

Speaker 1:
[39:34] So unfair. Yes. Some of Wolsey's critics will probably say that he brought all this on himself. He got too big for his boots. He got overly ambitious. To what extent is that fair? Or actually, was he just in this incredibly complex situation that nobody could have manoeuvred out of, particularly with enemies such as the Boleyns?

Speaker 2:
[39:55] Yeah, I mean, I think you have to look at the facts of the annulment suit, and actually, it's impossible. There was no way that Pope Clement VII would ever grant Henry his annulment. I mean, even Clement knows this, and actually, he talks about maybe allowing a marriage between Princess Mary and Henry's illegitimate son, her half-sibling, or maybe even, there's talk even of maybe letting the king have two wives. They're trying to find any solution which will keep everybody happy. But one solution that absolutely will not keep people happy is the annulment because the emperor will never allow it. Worsley can't do it. It's actually impossible. Henry eventually understands that and comes up with a new solution where he of course breaks with Rome to get his annulment. This isn't something that Wolsey has countenance, and I don't think Wolsey ever potentially could have countenance that. He's too enmeshed in the church. But it's not something anyone could have fixed. Even if you're the butcher's son who gets too big for their boots, he still can't fix this.

Speaker 1:
[40:52] Not as a cardinal. He would never, as you say, have come up with the idea willingly of breaking with the Catholic Church. Bite the hand that feeds and all that.

Speaker 2:
[41:01] That is pretty extreme for a cardinal. And he's very embedded in the church. You know, he does go to Rome. You know, he knows some of these figures. He knows the popes. You know, he's not going to break with Rome. That's not something that's in his diplomatic language.

Speaker 1:
[41:15] Whereas Armand Cromwell, tune in to episode three, he doesn't quite have those same ties and considerations. And he can think outside that box. You've very clearly mapped out just how torturously difficult a situation Wolsey was in with trying to secure this great matter and that the pope was never going to say yes. But looking here at court, if you could assign Wolsey's downfall to one person, who would it be?

Speaker 2:
[41:46] So Wolsey very clearly assigns it to Anne Boleyn. I mean, clearly it's Henry VIII, of course. Partly he starts listening to other voices, which he perhaps hasn't done earlier in the reign. Anne Boleyn undoubtedly dislikes Wolsey. I mean, it's mutual. They both don't like each other. And it's clearly working against him. But she doesn't necessarily have the power to bring down a figure as powerful as Cardinal Wolsey by herself. She does have a party around her. Her father, Thomas Boleyn, but he himself is not a particularly powerful figure at court. Her uncle, the Duke of Norfolk, who doesn't particularly like Anne Boleyn, but certainly doesn't like Cardinal Wolsey, is working against him as well. But really, the buck stops with Henry in that he is suddenly hearing other voices and he's listening to complaints about Wolsey when perhaps he wouldn't before. And Wolsey is no longer useful to him. He's proved that the one thing that Henry really wants, he can't do.

Speaker 1:
[42:41] Would Henry have executed Wolsey, do you think?

Speaker 2:
[42:45] Yeah, I think he would. Henry VIII is really cold with people he's previously loved. And we can see this throughout his reign, you know, foreshadowing some of the other Thomases as well, of course. You know, actually, when he's done with you, he's done with you. And clearly, with Wolsey, this takes time. He's clearly not quite ready to cut the apron strings in 1529. In 1530, he suddenly sends Wolsey north to his diocese. He tells him to go to York. He hasn't really spent any time as archbishop of York actually there. So he heads north. And this is, again, a sign that maybe Wolsey will be all right. And then, of course, he's arrested and he's brought south. And it's at this point where he's clearly heading for the tower. And I think almost certainly, had he got to the tower, he would have had a show trial and he would have been beheaded.

Speaker 1:
[43:32] But he escapes, in a way. He does.

Speaker 2:
[43:35] He does. I mean, Wolsey wins in a way. He's in bad health as he moved southwards. He seems to have been suffering possibly from dysentery. He's increasingly weak. He's around 60 years old. And clearly, you know, he knows his life is over effectively. He's in reduced circumstances. One source that says he's actually tied to his mule as they move southwards as a common prisoner. He gets to Leicester and he dies.

Speaker 1:
[43:59] So he cheats the king, but he dies in the process, but arguably a better end for this faithful cardinal than an axe at the tower.

Speaker 2:
[44:09] Absolutely. And of course, it means he's never convicted of treason, which in itself is valuable. It's valuable for his surviving family, particularly his son, Thomas Winter.

Speaker 1:
[44:17] What of Henry? Does he express any kind of regret at the passing of his beloved cardinal?

Speaker 2:
[44:23] Not really. I mean, this is a stage, you know, Henry is very much ensconced with Anne Boleyn at this stage. You know, he's getting ready to... He's still working towards the marriage. He's getting ready to separate from Catherine of Aragon. You know, he's moving forwards. And Henry often doesn't look back. It's quite rare that he does with regret occasionally. And I think he's just outgrown Wolsey by this stage.

Speaker 1:
[44:43] He's very good at compartmentalising, isn't he, Henry? Wolsey was the past. Now it's all about Anne Boleyn.

Speaker 2:
[44:49] Yeah, very useful, but he's done now.

Speaker 1:
[44:52] But we don't forget Wolsey, and particularly not here at Hampton Court, his magnificent palace, much as it's associated with Henry. It was Wolsey's palace originally. What do you think Wolsey's legacy is today?

Speaker 2:
[45:07] I mean, he has a complex legacy. He's quite a negative figure when he's portrayed today. And I think a lot of that is due to the fact that he's seen as kind of the last gasp of the Catholic Church in England. You know, he's the last time really we have a longstanding cardinal living in England. So I think that's always coloured his reputation to some extent. I think he's seen as manipulative. I think he's seen as a man who got above his station. You know, he should have stayed in Ipswich, perhaps, or at least been a little bit more humble, because there's one thing you can say about Wolsey, and it's not that he's humble. But I think his legacy is much, much more than that. He is the first of Henry VIII's great ministers. And arguably the greatest, he's certainly the one that lasts the longest. He rises so far and very much uses the Tudor court, the Tudor dynasty, because they're good at finding new men and to rise to prominence. But I think his chief legacy almost certainly is Hampton Court. He built this palace. Everything we see in the Tudor part of the palace has Wolsey's hand in it. And it's been changed a great deal over the years, but you know, you can see Wolsey, you can see Wolsey and the Roman emperors on the, and the roundels out in the courtyards. You can see him in base court. His ghost is everywhere in the palace.

Speaker 1:
[46:18] What better place to be talking about his life and legacy. And on the subject of that, how much of this transformative reign, it's a real turning point, I think, Henry VIII reign, how much of it was to do with the king and how much to do with Wolsey?

Speaker 2:
[46:36] So I think Wolsey is still slightly underestimated for how much he directs policy, because again, you know, he's doing the king's bidding. He gets things done, but he's also telling the king to some extent, what the king's will is. So I think a lot of the early reign is shaped by Wolsey, particularly the foreign policy, the increasing relationship with France. And it doesn't, you know, they don't get their perpetual peace by any means. But certainly, there is a sense that Wolsey is shaping the man that Henry VIII will become. You know, he's given this 17 and 18 year old king and shapes him into this glorious monarch. I mean, you know, surely Henry VIII must have been lucky at Wolsey and all his pomp with the jewels, with the tapestries again, and actually said, you know, I want that.

Speaker 1:
[47:20] Absolutely. What a long way this butcher's boy from Suffolk had traveled. Beth, it's been a fascinating journey, and thank you so much for joining me today. To really get to know the Cardinal, who is responsible for this amazing palace. It's given me shivers down the spine of actually sitting in the center of admittedly, Henry VIII bit of the palace, but we wouldn't be here without Cardinal Wolsey. So thank you.

Speaker 2:
[47:50] It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you very much.

Speaker 1:
[47:53] Well, do let us know if you've enjoyed this episode by leaving us a comment or a review and don't forget to subscribe on your podcast app or YouTube. Tune in next time when I'll be getting to know the next Thomas in the roll call, Thomas More. Until then, thanks for joining us, loyal listeners.