transcript
Speaker 1:
[00:15] Hello, and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Verrier, and joining me, Rob Mahoney, J. Kyle Mann, first night pod of the playoffs. I feel like this can go one of two ways. Either this is the best pod ever, or it's gonna be the worst pod ever.
Speaker 2:
[00:29] I already have an inkling of which way it's gonna go, but this is the witching hour, so I'm gonna embrace the unpredictability and the idea that this might actually be a good pod.
Speaker 3:
[00:38] I took a couple naps in preparation. I don't nap well, so this isn't some story of how I'm ready to roll. You can kind of see it's gonna be an adjustment period, but yeah, man, we're not digging ditches here, right? We're staying up talking some ball. I'm ready to roll. Let's go. Come on.
Speaker 1:
[00:59] I just wish I could have bet this on Kelshe, you know? Will this be a good pod?
Speaker 3:
[01:06] You keep putting it in the air, man. I'm not gonna put that in the air. It's gonna be a great pod.
Speaker 2:
[01:11] Here's the thing. Justin is only saying this so he can work the markets a la certain members of the administration as far as the outcomes go. This man would tank this podcast if it meant he could get a little extra coin out of it.
Speaker 1:
[01:21] 100%. We're already so high up in the standings. We have so many wins banked. What's it just one pod in the playoffs? People will just move along. They won't notice this when they do the accounting for it.
Speaker 2:
[01:33] I appreciate that manner of thinking. I don't know that I completely agree. I think we gotta show up for the people. I think we gotta show up in the way the Pistons showed up, to be honest with you. We can have a stinker now and again, and people will forgive us and forget, but then we gotta turn it to beef stew. We gotta be turning away people in the room.
Speaker 3:
[01:48] We're gonna have a, we're gonna end up with a blue chip moment where Bill and Chris are reviewing the audio years later. Chris yells to Bill, Justin was my guy! When they realize you threw the pod. I hope that's what happens anyway.
Speaker 1:
[02:02] Little doc review. Yeah, that's always fun. All right, so we're gonna talk about Pistons Magic game two. We're gonna talk about ThunderSons. We're also gonna talk about things we think we know about the playoffs thus far. A little bit of housekeeping before we get into the pod here. If you're gonna be in Portland on April 28th, I believe that's next Tuesday, Jordan Kahn of The Ringer is coming up here to do a little book tour. He's putting Portland on and stop. I will be in conversation with him at the world famous Powell's book. So if you're in Portland, 7 p.m., come and join Jordan and I talking about his book American Men, which you can now find on Bookstance.
Speaker 2:
[02:39] I cannot wait to check this book out. I mean, the reviews have been raves across the board. Justin, I presume, given that you're leading a talk, you have read the book. And my question for you is, are Kyle and I featured as some of the titular American men?
Speaker 1:
[02:53] You are two of the best American men that I know. Unfortunately, you did not get the nod here. I haven't gotten to the very end because I want to be fresh going into the conversation. So perhaps you're credited in the back as just muses and inspirations because you are that for me.
Speaker 3:
[03:08] We're in the muse appendices in the back.
Speaker 2:
[03:10] That's so kind of you to say. I'm not glossing over the fact that you gave us that credit, Justin. It really means a lot to me.
Speaker 1:
[03:16] But the book is excellent from what I've read thus far. It's a real, it's a non-fiction book, but it's a page-turner in the way that a really engrossing fiction book is. So buy the book, American Men. If you're in Portland, come check us out. 7 p.m. Powell's Books next Tuesday, the 28th. All right. We're going to take one quick break. When we come back, we'll talk and do the pod.
Speaker 2:
[03:35] The Ringer NBA Show is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA postseason is here and FanDuel knows the only thing better than watching your favorite team win is winning along with them. FanDuel is the best place to bet the teams, players and plays during their playoff run. Build the same game parlay or try live betting and jump in after tip-off. Don't forget, with FanDuel, you get paid instantly when you win. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game. 21 plus in select states, 18 plus for DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. A gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 1-88-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut.
Speaker 1:
[04:11] All right, so I've long held this theory about dating where the first date is like historically people think is the most difficult one, right?
Speaker 3:
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Speaker 1:
[04:50] Poe said that it's actually the second one, not the first one. Because the first one, you're not really giving all of who you are out there. It's really just a version of yourself. You're pitched higher. You're really just trying to win the other person over, or just like getting through so many of the basics, they really don't dig into the deep stuff into who the person is. It isn't until the second date where you actually have to be a person, which is often where a lot of my dating history has stopped.
Speaker 2:
[05:17] I feel like you may hold this view in part because, Justin, I would guess you have gone on more first dates than maybe anyone else I know.
Speaker 1:
[05:24] I'm like the Jason Maxil of first dates.
Speaker 2:
[05:28] You're putting up those numbers. You were there every night, the Iron Man of first dates.
Speaker 1:
[05:35] I would like to say that I think I'm a very good first date.
Speaker 2:
[05:37] Agreed.
Speaker 1:
[05:38] Second dates?
Speaker 3:
[05:40] I don't know.
Speaker 2:
[05:40] Substance? Revealing vulnerability? That's not our Justin.
Speaker 3:
[05:45] I think the process of relationships are just trying to find them. In my experience, it's just letting someone see the black bottom of who you are. They walk up and they say, okay, I can deal with that or they don't. That's because you got to get there. That's the whole game, right? Because everybody has one.
Speaker 1:
[06:02] Let me tell you, they don't. But I was thinking about that a lot as we went into game two of Magic and Pistons, particular that third quarter in which the Pistons absolutely fucking boat race them. I feel like that was the moment where somebody asked who you voted for in the previous election. And then everything just went catastrophic from there.
Speaker 3:
[06:26] firing. Nightpods, baby!
Speaker 1:
[06:31] But 38 to 16, third quarter, second most lopsided third in playoff history. Rob, I feel like we finally got to know who the Magic actually are.
Speaker 2:
[06:41] I think who both of these teams are. I think the biggest shift from game one to game two, like holistically for me, is just how attached and connected the Pistons defense felt. And this is when they really ratcheted up all of that intensity, all of that pressure, but then covering forward on the back line, rotating to the point that they're forcing turnovers and shot clock violations and crazy shots out of the Magic in the process. During that stretch, Orlando made one shot over the course of eight minutes, one for 10 with six turnovers, zero free throws during that time, just if you're keeping the accounting. I mean, they looked brutal, but they looked exactly as brutal as the Magic have at many points in this season.
Speaker 3:
[07:21] Yeah, it was, you talked about the connectivity. I think last game, and I, you know, I talked back, I remember talking about when we were coming out of that game saying like, how worried are you? I was concerned about, a lot of the things that I was concerned about, I thought that the Pistons did a really good job alleviating, you know, their connectivity was really good, granted, you know, the magic really, really came back to earth in a lot of different ways. The ball was sticking. You saw a lot of the worst habits of their stars. It got an abysmal game. I wrote it down. I mean, you just got really not very much at all from, from some of their key role players. I think it was, we had several guys in the, who had attempts in the double digits and were in the teens percentage wise. I don't have it in front of me, but I was bringing up to you guys just overall. The magic just, I was curious to see what the drive data was on this game, because it's credit to the Pistons, but the magic just did not get in the middle of the floor, make good decisions all night, in my opinion. It was just really a real fart sound of a performance from them.
Speaker 2:
[08:24] Well, they often don't. I mean, they don't have the spacing to make that stuff easy. And so that was part of what was so shocking about game one, was how seamlessly they were able to infiltrate the paint, get out in transition and facilitate some of that flow, some of that momentum. But this does feel a little more indicative of what the night to night struggles of the magic were. Some nights they have the ability to plow through that with their own physicality, with their own defense, with their own offensive rebounding. That just certainly was not the case in the third quarter where I think Code Race is apt. Really, they just kind of fucking turned to dust during that stretch. So we'll see kind of what version of the magic we get going forward. But this did feel, Justin, reasonably representative to me of who they are.
Speaker 1:
[09:05] Yeah, I thought it was a good sign for the Pistons in that first half. And things were kind of even after that first half. But there was a level of physicality that I think really spoke to Pistons basketball. Like it felt like the game was very much in the mud and the Pistons got up from that. Like they started throwing the slop buckets around. Like this is where we fucking want to be. And you saw that kind of carry into the offense starting to click in that third quarter there. So the Pistons had nine assists in the entire first half of the game. In the third quarter, Cade had seven assists. He was cooking early on and things just started to filter down. In particular, when it seemed like Jalen Dern finally just checked into the game. Like he was getting the sort of switches I think that worked to his advantage. And you saw him just start to come alive. The offense overall started to finally breathe in the way that it had in what, just six quarters of basketball up in that point.
Speaker 2:
[10:00] Yeah, just like a couple of threes going down at all. Not even a great percentage, just any shots whatsoever. Plus Jalen Dern, plus just getting some of that like digging out random flip shots from the muck for assorted Pistons role players. That's kind of all it takes if your defense is this good. And to me, that's kind of one of the takeaways from the larger Pistons experience here is they don't really need the breakout from a score other than Cade to be a really good team. They just need their defense to actually play like this. The way that it did in a really dominant regular season in a way that I expect it will against the vast majority of playoff opponents. The Magic were able to match them in terms of some of that physicality in game one. But I think the punch back here was very inspiring as far as what Detroit's playoff trajectory could ultimately be. And certainly for the series, I think they're going to have a pretty good feel for it going forward.
Speaker 3:
[10:54] It was interesting because they did kind of sputter to start. It was such an ugly start to the game before. They were talking about on the broadcast, so they thought maybe that was a little bit of tightness or they were just kind of settling into their record groove as the game was going on. You mentioned Durin. I still think he is finding his rhythm in situations that aren't as simple as like, there were a few different plays in the first half where he was trying to attack one-on-one from like 13, 14, 15 feet away and just really, really kind of clumsily get into his spot. But I want to talk about-
Speaker 2:
[11:31] Well, Kyle, our friend and his, Wendell Carter Jr. was just like body checking him every step of the way. Was not able to get to all those even cutesy little layups and flip shots that he might like to.
Speaker 1:
[11:44] What do you mean by that, Rob?
Speaker 2:
[11:46] I just think they have some affiliation. They have some shared history. They have a lot to talk about as we all do.
Speaker 1:
[11:51] Interesting. Well, that was kind of- I mean, we should talk about that briefly because that's kind of the game within the game. I didn't realize that they had this shared connection as Rob was referring to, which is that, I guess, Jalen Dern used to date Angel Rees, and now Wendell Carter does. Okay. I had to run this by three sources.
Speaker 2:
[12:11] I'm just saying, that one's alleged, Wendell Carter, that one's confirmed.
Speaker 1:
[12:15] I'm not up on my Us Weekly these days, and so I didn't know that this was the backstory to it. But once I found that out, in part because Angel Rees set it outright in some social media platform after the game won victory by the Magic, it made a lot of sense, because as you're watching that battle happening, there's a lot going on there where it feels like Jalen Durin is trying a lot of shit. Like he was trying to go behind his back and transition once when Carter was able to strip him. But Carter in particular seems like, is a bit more gleeful whenever he's doing something against Durin. And it's just like, it's hard not to miss. I don't want to get too tawdry and get into the detail of players' lives. But that's not subtext. It's very much on the surface.
Speaker 3:
[12:57] Yeah.
Speaker 2:
[12:57] This is just what the series is at this point. So I'm enjoying, even if you want to take that out of it, even if you want to pretend all that stuff isn't part of the dynamic, part of the series, these two sinners going at each other, I've just enjoyed what's your problem.
Speaker 1:
[13:13] Two sinners?
Speaker 2:
[13:14] Two centers.
Speaker 1:
[13:15] Oh, dude, wow. Who do you think I am? Two fronocators?
Speaker 2:
[13:21] I was like, no, my God.
Speaker 3:
[13:21] The retainer, Rob, comes to us late at night.
Speaker 1:
[13:24] Out of wedlock, how dare they?
Speaker 2:
[13:26] As far as I can tell, they didn't do anything wrong, but clearly you have some judgment in your heart, Justin.
Speaker 3:
[13:30] They'll be battling in the fires of hell, if they're sinning.
Speaker 1:
[13:34] I just think this is relevant context.
Speaker 2:
[13:36] It is relevant context. Just bring it to the table. But even absent that context, just watching these two guys go at it over the course of this series has been awesome. I don't know that I expected that or even necessarily wanted that, but Wendell has held up his end of the bargain, seeing Jalen Durin show up in the way he did in game two. It's just become an awesome subplot for this series.
Speaker 3:
[13:56] There's something that I think is going to be a recurring thing for me. It'll come back in something that we're going to do later. But I think that they did a good job of getting Durin into some simpler situations, which was the last part of the point I was making before, where they're getting a little more creative with how they're screening for Cade. We talked a lot in the first game about just the straight up, I hesitate to call it one five because Cade is six, seven, six, eight. It's hardly a point guard center pick and roll, but for them it's one five. That was an easy situation for the Magic weren't outright bringing another guy to the ball, but they were just hugging the pain. For a guy who isn't terribly dynamic in his ball skills, Durin looked like he was in a neck brace, just didn't really know what to do. They were getting really creative throughout. I wrote down just a few different ways that they were in a sequence at one point. They were doing double staggered and then the second guy would reverse the pick, and then Durin would seal, and then it was like Duncan Robinson. They were just really creative in opening up the pain, putting Tobias Harris and putting whoever it was in both of the quarters. I thought that Brikker Steff did a better job about this game. Cade was better about getting off it early and they pitch it back to him. I just thought the Pistons look, granted it wasn't an offensive master class, but they looked a little bit more in rhythm in doing what they're comfortable doing.
Speaker 1:
[15:26] Well, I'm glad you mentioned Cade though, because as he was just getting comfortable in that first half, I just started to see some of the deliberate pace that he inflicts upon the game. And while his numbers weren't crazy, I thought he controlled the game pretty well. And this looked more of a vintage performance from him. I was thinking throughout the entire game of that, do you know John Rothstein? I know Kyle does, but Rob, do you know who John Rothstein is?
Speaker 2:
[15:50] I don't even know what realm he might be coming to us from. Who on earth is John Rothstein?
Speaker 1:
[15:55] He's a college basketball reporter, and on Twitter, he has this habit of saying the same thing over and over and over again on Twitter. And one of those is, this is March, and he'll just tweet that out like 50 different times over the course of a month.
Speaker 3:
[16:09] He's seen on the bit though at this point, to his credit, yeah.
Speaker 1:
[16:12] But one of those other things is that he calls Dan Hurley the carpenter, and it would just be like, the carpenter, and that would just be the entire tweet. I was thinking about that constantly when it comes to Cade, because he was really just slowly carving. He just had the lacquer out there, he had the hand planer. He was just going to work slowly but surely, and you just saw how everything just changes when he's on another level for the Pistons, as we talked about in the last pod. They don't have a lot of other options to turn to when they need juice, but when he's cooking in the way he did in this game, they just feel like a different team.
Speaker 2:
[16:48] Is that the implication of being the carpenter, the capital C, capital C carpenter?
Speaker 3:
[16:53] I think it's more of like a- Kate's got a fucking Masonic pick and roll game, man. I mean, it is just-
Speaker 1:
[16:59] Yeah, he's got the chisel out there.
Speaker 2:
[17:01] It is a pound the rock kind of situation.
Speaker 1:
[17:04] No, I think the carpenter in the Dean Hurley sense refers to being a builder. In mine, I'm thinking more about just working slowly to make sure that that chair is beautiful, man.
Speaker 2:
[17:17] I'm with it. He is meticulous in his way. So I can see the precision, the attention to detail that checks out for me.
Speaker 3:
[17:24] Okay.
Speaker 1:
[17:26] Anything else from this game?
Speaker 2:
[17:27] The carpenter. I guess that's it.
Speaker 3:
[17:29] Masonic. Kate is risen. Smell of my own stuff there. Yeah. Do you think Orlando has a cat? Or is it just like Detroit settled in? Was that first game an aberration? What else can we see from Orlando in this?
Speaker 2:
[17:46] I don't know that it's an aberration so much as a lot of the variables surrounding the magic are just like how they deal with adversity. When they do meet equal pressure or a certain kind of attention on defense that's stifling them, how do they deal with it? Historically, the answer is not super well and they get bogged down. Kyle, you talked about just the total absence of movement that their offense devolved into over the course of this game. That stuff is still fixable. Even with poor space, if you are committed to getting some sort of flow in your offense, you can find it. It's just incumbent on guys like Paolo, guys like Franz, to be fair, who I thought had a pretty terrible game and was completely bottled up over the course of this one, to not just be attacking in the most straightforward paths possible, to be a little more Jalen Suggs Anthony Black and a little less Paolo Franz Wagner. I don't even mean that in the sense of who has the ball, but how they choose to attack and how predictable those attacks are.
Speaker 1:
[18:41] I think it feels more catastrophic now, just because the third quarter was an absolute blistering performance from the Pistons. I think when you get away from it, when you realize that they're going back home with a split series and a series that they weren't even supposed to even be in, they weren't even supposed to get out of the play-in at this point, I do wonder if the positive of this pop, in particular, they didn't shoot the ball well. If a couple of those goes down, maybe things open up a little bit more for them. I still look at that first half and they played into a standstill and it still feels like their formula works now. Will all of those things click in? It's just, I think a lot of it just starts from Paolo. I don't think it was a coincidence that last game went so well when he dominated early. Can he have that impact in consecutive games? I'm not so sure. There's still a lot of good things about this team, but Rob's right. It's just like, how do you get into the psychology of a team when that seems to be the biggest issue?
Speaker 2:
[19:37] Especially when I think they can be back footed so easily. I want to give credit for that back footing to the Pistons overall, GB. Bickerstaff in particular, but also Asar Thompson, who I thought was just awesome in terms of picking really unpredictable times to jump the ball, to really insert himself into plays. He would just show up out of nowhere in a way that's a very particular kind of menace. You could see the magic over the course of the game trying to anticipate when they might experience that and ultimately failing or slowing down or not taking advantage of some opportunities that were right there in front of him. And I just think having a player who can do that based off of yes, like the freedom and the trust from the coaching staff to pursue those kinds of opportunities, but also like pure instinct basically, to be an all world level defender who can muck up any play based off of a kind of timing that you have internalized that nobody else knows. That's a very specific kind of weapon that I think Orlando is going to have a hard time with.
Speaker 3:
[20:35] Yeah, he just like materializes. Like there were a couple, he had Bane in hell on a few of those plays where Bane would just turn his head and it's almost like he leaps like one of those, just like the way they animate the athleticism from like the X-Men movies or something, whenever somebody can really, like Asar just floats. Like he springs up in a way where it's almost like he's like an apparition or something. Like I can't, I don't really have a good analog for it, but yeah, he was all over the place in a terry. Yeah, Bane had a really rough night too. I don't think they can, if Bane's going to go two for 11 and shoot 18% and two for seven from three, it was rough. He was minus 22. Wendell Carter in the beginning of the game was rebounding really well. Minus 29 on the game. So, it was tough, it was rough.
Speaker 2:
[21:27] The sum total of all this too, we should note. Orlando with the lowest scoring total in any team in the playoffs in any game so far. And boy did it feel like it.
Speaker 3:
[21:36] And their lowest total of the year, right? And then they say that on the show.
Speaker 2:
[21:40] That's also a low bar to clear.
Speaker 1:
[21:42] But I agree with you. It feels like Bain is kind of the weathervane for that team overall, in part because they just have to scrap in order to get like any sort of shooting out on the court. But also like he's been the consistent force for that team throughout the entire time. His guys are going in and out. He just seems like if he's not right, it's hard for them to overcome that. But if he's making shots, then it seems like things open up a little bit more. Should we get into game two now? Thunder, Suns. I was ready to sing the praises of one Jalen Williams because we talked about going into the playoffs. I thought his health could very much dictate the future of the Thunder. He started this game just absolutely like in a blitzkrieg. Just out in transition was an absolute force. Just picking up Devin Booker, just deciding he was going to strip him in that possession, just absolutely nails in that first half. Unfortunately, goes out with the hamstring issue. We don't know as we're recording this. It's around 10 PM Pacific. As we're recording this, we haven't heard anything. It's the left hamstring. He had hurt his right hamstring over the course of the season, only had 33 games in the regular season. I don't know. On the one hand, I feel good about the Thunder overall. They're definitely won out when the Suns came back in this one, Rob. But that one is a big old matzah ball in the air as we're recording this.
Speaker 2:
[23:06] It just sucks. I'm with you on overall your appraisal of his performance in the first half of this game, JV. Like he felt like the best player on the floor at a time where Shea was also getting his, where so many players, like Chet was having great moments. So many members of the Thunder were having like incredible runs, but all of it kind of felt fueled by Jalen Williams in one way or another. And he occupies his like really particular place on the team, where I feel like he's the fulcrum of a lot of their versatility. That's not really a problem in a series like this. Like they don't need to flex into every version of the Thunder in order to beat a team like the Suns. But you could even see in the second half, boy would it have been nice to like sick him on Dylan Brooks when Dylan Brooks was going off. And so having a one size fits all defender who can be moved all across the floor, all around the chessboard, who's just as good in help as he is on the ball. And even when he is on the ball or just in help, he's so quick at accelerating into the offense and like the fervor that they need to really be a formidable offensive team. Losing all of that potentially for any period of time is tough. And I just hope for his sake and the Thunder's sake and all of our sakes as we kind of want the best playoff possible, that he's not going to miss a significant amount of time. It's just that hamstrings typically are you're going to miss a significant amount of time.
Speaker 3:
[24:21] Yeah, it's kind of a binary. We were talking about it before we came on the show. It's like, there's no like, I barely have a hamstring thing. If you barely, whether you have a severe hamstring or you barely have a hamstring thing going on, it's just kind of like you, it's one or the other. So it's really hard to deal with. But you're talking about the OKC has so many defenders. You know, when Brooks was making that run, it's, you know, you got Caruso and you've got Kasey Wallace. You've got these kind of indoor, you've got these real fire hydrant, like physical ball pressure guys. Jalen is sort of the lanky, he's the lankier one among that group. He's the guy who has the big wingspan. He's a lot rangier. I think he could have bothered Brooks during that time. But you were talking about just him adding being the fulcrum. I think he's the fulcrum because, you know, when the ball comes off of Shea, granted they have a few of these guys. I mean, AJ Mitchell is, you know, this is probably going to be his bat signal if Jalen's going to be out. But he has a right play mentality and a really wide right play vocabulary. When the ball gets swung to him, he could, yes, catch and shoot at a high level. He didn't shoot as well this year, but he can run, pick and roll at a high level. He can isolate, he can get to the rim, he can pass. It's just that is a hell of a player to have on defense, to have to guard a player like Dylan Brooks, but also just to have on your second side. He can also just kind of take turns with Shea and absolutely assume the role of a primary. You know, he didn't play as much this year when we thought coming out of the finals that he would maybe evolve a little bit that direction. But it's okay, so he's going to be okay. But losing him kind of does lower their nuclear, most extreme outcomes in the playoffs.
Speaker 1:
[26:00] Yeah. We should mention that they got through this in the end. But I thought AJ was a little shaky late when typically those possessions would probably go more toward Dubb, right? He was struggling to get the ball into Shea when he was trying to post up on Devin Booker. And then he missed the air balled a shot, and then he missed the three. Maybe Dubb doesn't hit all those, but he's going to be a little bit more of an even hand when you need it there. We should say on the flip side of this, as Brooks was going off, I think it was 13 points in a row. And then all of a sudden the ball swings to one Jalen Green who misses the shot. And it just felt like the air just completely came out of the suns at that point. Ultimately, Green had seven turnovers.
Speaker 3:
[26:43] I was watching, the air came out of me.
Speaker 1:
[26:46] There was...
Speaker 2:
[26:47] That's it.
Speaker 1:
[26:49] Interesting. Seven turnovers in the game for Jalen Green. I almost felt like if they just had a more steady version of that player, they probably could have pulled themselves even closer than they ultimately did. Unfortunately, they have Jalen Green and this is where they find themselves.
Speaker 2:
[27:07] Yeah, the roller coaster of the Jalen Green experience. I am enjoying less and less and frankly, even when the highs are higher, it just makes the whiplash that much worse of how bad and ultimately self-destructive he can be in some of these contexts. So he certainly had his moments in the play-in and play-offs both so far. But he's also going to do stuff like this and he's going to disappear at moments when you really need him. He's going to try to do too much at the times where he should recede to the background. There's just something about the equilibrium of how he plays that isn't really to my liking and I feel like isn't really to the liking of a lot of the people who play with him.
Speaker 3:
[27:43] Yes, this is absolutely the takeaway from this game for me. And when I watch him, I'm just like, there's a point five mentality that I was giving paid credit. And this has kind of been an ongoing like zooming out, like how are superstars playing? We talked about this a little bit at the end of the year where I was kind of trying to urge Paolo actually to sort of get off the ball screen and then catch it against a rotating ball. There's just nothing in Jalen like he's such a talented, he's a talented enough shot creator that I think he is, he just gets drunk on it to the point where, you know, if he would just get off it early and get back on it and get off it, you know, like he could be such an effective player, but he just pounds the ball, pounds the ball, pounds the ball it takes. I swear he took the same shot. Like, I don't know, I need to go back and watch it. He took the same shot just over and over and over and over again. I was like, he looked off Gillespie in the corner at one point who could make that shot. And one of them, he kind of forced it up and got an A and one. But it's like, he's just good enough to believe in himself that he can just do that over and over. I mean, it just wears me out. I don't know what it is about like players when they're growing up, like when that gets into you, because you're talking about like J-Dub for OKC, he grew up a little stubby point guard and then expanded into this like pterodactyl wing who can handle the ball. I don't know if it's just that Jalen just grew up scoring and he just never learned to play that way. He won't do it. I've been waiting for years for him to do it. It's so deeply frustrating. I think you're absolutely right. It's squandered a lot of the effort that the Suns, like they played their asses off tonight. Like a year ago dude, they would have quit. Like that team last year would have quit. And like what they did tonight, like I think that he lowered their ceiling of what they were capable of tonight. Like man, I hope he can in the series make an adjustment, please.
Speaker 2:
[29:32] I thought Phoenix had a lot of the component parts to really make this an even more competitive game. And they got close down the stretch, but by the grace of Dylan Brooks going on that run. But in the first half in particular, I thought we saw the Suns really dealing with a lot of kind of the frenzy of what Oklahoma City throws at you defensively much more effectively than they did in game one. And some of that I think was Kevin Collin Gillespie on the floor, who I'm a Jordan Goodwin guy. I think they really miss him in a lot of ways. He was out of the lineup tonight. But Gillespie I thought as a connector and a passer, and just like an extra ball handler, who's a little more confident navigating some of the tight spaces that you have to with the Thunder, that came in handy. And it really helped them kind of keep their heads on their shoulders as they were trying to break down the Thunder defense. It wasn't hugely effective. They still completely fell apart in the third quarter, both of these games just unraveled in the third. But between that and what Dylan Brooks was doing and what you're getting from Devin Booker, it's like, this feels like it should kind of be enough to get you in the mix. And yet, OKC was just kind of keeping him at arm's length all the way down the stretch.
Speaker 1:
[30:37] What does the Jordan Goodwin Guy group chat look like?
Speaker 2:
[30:42] It's me.
Speaker 1:
[30:42] A lot of masks. What does that even mean? It's like a mask party, you know, just toss it on. The honor of our guy.
Speaker 3:
[30:52] Yeah, we don't kink shame on this show, Rob.
Speaker 2:
[30:55] Absolutely not. You know, it's a very sacred space for me. A half dozen pro personnel scouts and assistant GMs who swear up and down that Jordan Goodwin will help your team.
Speaker 1:
[31:09] Good to know that there's a there's a force out there for him.
Speaker 2:
[31:12] But we are the mask size wide shut style. Like it is a part of the formula.
Speaker 1:
[31:16] That's kind of what I was going for.
Speaker 3:
[31:17] Yeah, we feel we feel fancy when we do it.
Speaker 1:
[31:20] That's why credit to the sons. Definitely this is the formula that they used to their success this year. I just don't know to what end they could even have a better performance in this. Obviously, they're going home now. I don't know. Is there anything left on the table that they don't have? Maybe they get Mark Williams in order to counterbalance some of the size disadvantage that they've been on. I think Mala Watch is a big old boy. I've been startled by what a big old boy that big old boy is. But obviously, having Williams in there could help a little bit. But I just don't know where the creases are in order to really expose anything, even if J-Dub isn't here for the rest of the series.
Speaker 2:
[31:55] How often are you going to get the 30 piece from Dylan Brooks in this series?
Speaker 1:
[31:59] Well, this season. I don't know.
Speaker 2:
[32:01] This is the thing. I mean, I don't want to write it off because my understanding of Dylan Brooks as a basketball player, as he stands today, 85, let's say 90 percent of the time, he's just like a good winning feisty walk the line kind of role player in terms of what he gives you on the floor. Any team would love to have him. Five percent of the time, he is a ticking time bomb, and five percent of the time, he is the absolute best basketball player I've ever seen in my life. So you can roll the dice and you just might get that five percent enough times in the series to make things a little bit more competitive and interesting. It's just going to be a tall order to get the sixes to come up every single time.
Speaker 3:
[32:42] Yeah. You're talking about where are the creases. It's just like OKC has one of the better, I mean, their chain is so strong, every link of it is, and it's like, where do you attack? I was watching because you go into games thinking like, OK, where are the vulnerability kind of buttons that they could push? Where are the matchups that they like? And it's OKC, it's almost like, you almost just have to play basketball. I know that teams don't approach it that way, I'm sure that, but it feels like you can kind of get, they're so good defensively that you can just kind of waste clock and waste time trying to like pick it, pick it a vulnerability, because they don't have an obvious one. But there was a moment like the Brooks, I think they were down, like where did they get down 27? I mean, they were down more than 20 at one point. And he made that and one, and he's like basically walking the perimeter of the court and pumping and talking shit and like pumping his fists and stuff. And I was just like, I've teased Dylan Brooks, but I mean, that is the kind of unwavering nuclear confidence you have to have to take on an OKC team. It feels futile at times, like the just machinery of how they do their thing. You kind of have to have Dylan Brooks fueling the fire. Very true.
Speaker 1:
[33:53] Yeah, I mean, the Thunder is such an imposing collective. It almost feels like the times that teams break through, it is an outlier, like perfect storm, chaotic performance like Brooks is capable of doing. Like in a weird way, like he just has that sort of like almost star power, but then doesn't have a lot of the other things. Most of the other things that make for an offensive star, like he can go on these like shot making runs at this point. He did it throughout the regular season, to the point where it's like he was one of the better, just like mid range shot makers that I had confidence in going off in these sorts of situations. It's just like, there just isn't enough around him to even buoy like that plus Booker being pretty good in this game. And he was good for the most part when he wasn't just bitching about absolutely everything at this point. I just don't know what else there is for the sons, but it's good to see them give some fight.
Speaker 2:
[34:42] It feels like a lot of them are doing.
Speaker 1:
[34:43] We don't have to do the early off season, like what do the sons do? At this point, right now, what we're saying is like, good job, sons, you gave this one a run.
Speaker 2:
[34:52] You gave it a run. This game was closer than it felt like it was going to be or needed to be. A lot of it just comes down to like, what are you generating off of turnovers in the series? And right now, Oklahoma City points off turnovers as a 56 to 11 advantage between games one and two. You just can't do it. Phoenix is turning the ball over now well over 20% of its possessions. You're just going to be dead in the water so long as that's the case. And I don't know how that changes. That's kind of endemic to the matchup, to the offenses involved. It's just a shitty situation to be in, it turns out, to play against the Thunder. In light of that, I do want to shine a little bit of a spotlight on that Chet third quarter, which good lord, if there was any argument in this game that J. Dub wasn't the best player on the floor, it was like that glimpse of what we saw from Chet, in which he was putting together every aspect of his game. The blocks were unreal, in particular, the sprint back in transition to turn away Dylan Brooks and wall him up on a layup. Devin Booker gets the rebound, then swat him away and turn. It was like, how many times do we see Chet pull off two and three consecutive amazing defensive plays on a single possession? It was just really special stuff from him.
Speaker 3:
[36:06] Yeah, Booker had that look in his eyes, like he knew it was going to get blocked, you know? You ever see that? Booker's just like, this probably isn't happening, but I know I need to put it up. Chet, what's really kind of demoralizing, I think, for Phoenix is that, if you look at this on paper, this series, this seems like it would be the Chet series, because they don't really have a matchup for him, especially with, I mean, Malwatch isn't going to be able to deal with him out there in the open floor, and then it's like Iguodaro doesn't have a chance. They just don't, the fact that they can just go and push that button whenever they want, and they did a couple of times tonight, I wrote down, I was just like, this is really depressing, I think, because they're not even going to have to go there. I don't expect them to have to, because they can't stop the initial things that OKC does. It's like Chet just shows so many extra layers that they can go to sometimes. I think when he's hitting, that's when they're at their most terrifying, when he's really going offensively.
Speaker 1:
[37:04] Yeah. She also mentioned Shea seemed to bend his fingers on his left hand, and it's like, that was the big discussion in the first quarter, but it seemed even late in the game when he got into it with Brooks a little bit, he started to grab at it again. So at this point, the Thunder just need to make it out of the series alive, and they'll be good, but it seemed pretty tough these days.
Speaker 2:
[37:22] Also Shea, we should note, so that was in his non-shooting hand, did not stop him from handling the ball with his left, finishing with his left playing normally, as Shea Gilders Alexander does, including putting up 37 on 25 shots. Ho hum, normal stuff, and yet amazing.
Speaker 3:
[37:38] Orgoleski, can we not do this to him? What are we doing? Are we going to get Grayson Allen back? That's another thing that would really give them another option on the second side, and I think it could cut down on the dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, pull up too. It felt like if they could just get one more guy out there that's not Royce O'Neal or Ryan Dunn, somebody that can hit some threes, I mean, that would help. Yeah. Right.
Speaker 1:
[38:03] All right, let's take a break. We come back, let's talk about some of these other series. The Ringer NBA Show is brought to you by FanDuel. NBA fans, this is your reminder to check in daily because every day during the playoffs, FanDuel is serving up a happy hour. We're talking special drops you won't want to miss from profit boosts to bonus bets and more. And the best part, it's every single day, including today. So we're looking ahead to game three. In particular, let's look at this Lakers at Rockets line. I don't know if you watch these games, but it doesn't seem like the Houston Rockets want to be out there. And yet, as we're recording this, the Rockets are nine and a half point favorites in game three. So the Lakers are getting nine and a half points in this, despite the fact that they've won the first two games. I know something might give eventually to the Lakers considering they're at a significant talent disadvantage with Reeves and Luka out right now, but I'm taking nine and a half because frankly, I don't know if the Rockets are going to even show up for this game. So Lakers plus nine and a half, give me that bet for game three. Check for a new reward every single day of the NBA playoffs and don't miss your shot to get a little extra out of the action. Head to fandual.com/ringernba to get started. 21 plus select states or 18 plus DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Often required rewards are non-betrawable, restrictions apply including bonus and token expiration, league requirements and max wager amounts. Gambling problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut.
Speaker 3:
[39:35] This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. If you ever find yourself scrambling to grab that special something for a last-minute party, a spontaneous date or even at impromptu game night at home, that's when Prime's same-day delivery swoops in. That essential item you thought you'd missed delivered. The plan saved. The win secured. Because with Prime's same-day delivery, you can grab it and go before the moment passes you by. Same-day delivery. It's on Prime. Visit amazon.com/prime to find millions of items delivered fast. Available in select areas. Terms apply.
Speaker 1:
[40:05] All right. So we've had what? Two plus days of other playoff actions since we've potted in addition to today. So we talked about today's game. We're going to go through. I asked you guys to come up with things that you think you know about the playoffs thus far. Not like, oh, I am 100 percent certain, but like you're just thinking through these things. You're like, oh, I have this down peg or that thing. Could be big picture. Could be about a team. We'll see. And I should mention before we get into this, this segment is sponsored by Ferrero. Hell yeah. Rob, do you want to go first with yours?
Speaker 2:
[40:41] I would love to. For the sake of Ferrero, I would love to. One thing that I think I know, I think we still somehow underrate the focus that comes with a LeBron James team. When we were going through our playoff previews and breaking down, okay, what do the Lakers have in this incarnation without Lugo, without Austin Reeves? What are their flaws? What are they bringing to the table? What is LeBron even capable of?
Speaker 3:
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Speaker 2:
[41:42] I feel like the variable we didn't talk about and that I just don't really hear spoken about often enough anywhere is that there is now a track record of several different distinct seasons in which a Lebron team looks like completely dead or useless defensively for a good portion of it and then just clicks into place. And they have a seriousness and a focus and an attention to detail that is above and beyond anything you could reasonably expect based on their track record. And once that just starts to happen over and over and over, including with this particular Laker team, I think we just have to call it out. Like they are being very well coached right now by JJ Reddick. But also I think there is something to when you're playing with one of the greatest players of all time, it's obviously very noisy playing with Lebron. But there's also just like a very specific kind of demand and a kind of pressure that not everyone can handle. But clearly if you just have enough guys who can, some switches can be flipped in a real and dramatic way that is not just like throwing up your hands and deferring to the magic of Lebron James. Like I think there is a real psychological thing that he brings that even some other stars, say Kevin Durant and the Houston Rockets, I don't think the reason the Rockets are bad is because of Kevin Durant. But I also don't think a Lebron James team would ever be as un-serious as the Rockets look right now.
Speaker 3:
[42:58] Yeah, I think some of the ebb and flow of that and the ups and downs, and maybe what lulls us into thinking or the causes us to underrate his teams defensively, or just the quality of what you're describing there is that as he's gotten older, I mean, the regular seasons are just so, they're a little bit of a show in a way that, in a way of just like what's going on, that people are in and out of the lineup. And he's obviously saving himself a little bit more too. But I think once the brightest lights come on, I think LeBron is an all-time, he might be the all-time, like trickle-down culture guy that we've had in the league. I mean, there's some guys historically we could go on, but it's like LeBron's, just LeBron's presence and seriousness, I think causes those things to happen. If you weren't such a brilliant, they say the game slows down for you as you get older. The game was always slow for LeBron. At this point, it's going bullet time slow. He just sees the game so slowly. I think that is allowing him to age pretty gracefully off the ball. He knows every action in the book. He knows every counter in the book. He can just think steps ahead. So I think that helps him to function out there. But I think that that attention to detail that he brings and the wisdom that he brings I think is the thing that causes guys like a Deandre Ayton or guys who've been in the wind or guys that maybe we haven't believed in here and there. I think that's probably what causes that. I don't even think that's a wild speculation. I think I know that's what causes it, but you're curious what you all think.
Speaker 1:
[44:31] Yeah. I think it's interesting, especially now as LeBron pivots toward the end here, looking back on the guys who actually excelled alongside him and those that butt up against the system. Because LeBron, as we've seen time and time again, asks a specific thing from certain guys and certain guys, Kyrie Irving, first and foremost, doesn't want to jive with it. But I wouldn't have expected Marcus Smart, for instance, to be one of these guys. I think when they signed him over the off season, that was played for laughs, in part because he'd been in the wilderness since his injuries. He'd already gone through two separate teams since he'd been off the Celtics. I think the optimist case was that he would be fine enough defensively, that they could use him in the rotation. He's been great for them by and large.
Speaker 3:
[45:12] He's another guy like that too, though. I think combining those two together, I think is like leveling it up to continue.
Speaker 1:
[45:18] Completely different player than Rajan Rondo, but almost similar there where there's just something where he's dialed in that speaks to LeBron's computer brain. As a result, there's a synergy there. As a result, LeBron has held breathe some life back into it. Obviously, like Luke before and some of these other guys had played well with Smart as well. But he just seems different and that feels notable because even going forward, he's just on a bargain contract and you just have him in the rotation. You need these guys piling up not only to play in this postseason, but going forward with this team under Luke and Reeves.
Speaker 2:
[45:52] For sure. I think you need all of that too. You need the kind of season and structure where guys like Luke and Reeves are carrying enough of the offense that you get LeBron to the finish line so he can be this best version of himself. But I just think he's, as an individual defender, he is one of the rare cases of someone who has all that processing power and can reverse engineer it defensively. Like we've seen so many great playmakers who just aren't great defenders despite the fact that they have these great anticipatory instincts. LeBron can apply everything, every direction all at once. I think the ability to do that, plus again, just like this latent pressure that exists around him, that is different and distinct, I think from almost any other player in the league, the only other people I'd really compare it to is maybe Steph at this stage, it's a combination of a gravitas plus the stage in their career that they're in, where it's like this could be the last ride for either of these guys at any point in time. So if you're Marcus Smart, if you're Jared Vanderbilt, if you're Luke Kennard and you're going to not show up in what could be LeBron's last season, honestly as a basketball player, how do you live with yourself? I think there's a pressure that comes with that kind of thing that honestly really turns Lakers for all of our preconceived notions about who they were and just like a very different playoff animal.
Speaker 3:
[47:10] You're on stage with a great, you got to bring it. You need to bring your best stuff. I think that's part of kind of what I'm saying, like what the trickle down culture thing. And the two sides of the ball thing is always really fascinating because you see a guy who can map the floor like a James Harden. You're like, why isn't James Harden? It's just like LeBron has elite gifts in a way that he can play QB on one end of the floor and in his prime. I mean, he reached highs obviously that really no other player ever did in terms of like Q being the offense and then being like the middle linebacker on the defense. Like the stuff that he was able to do. I'm just glad that we're getting to continue to see it.
Speaker 1:
[47:48] Well, the other guy I was going to mention here is just Kennard has now two straight games of this classic example of someone who's probably the best shooter in the league going right now, if not within the top five of just like pure shooters, just wouldn't shoot it enough and part of that is because oftentimes you get played off the floor defensively and so that's a factor there. He had been doing that in Memphis previously, but they just needed him and they found a way and that's LeBron first and foremost activating him in ways that put him in the best positions in order to highlight that. I also think this plays specifically to JJ's strength, not only because like that was his role previously, but also like his tactician qualities, I think really do shine in playoff series like this, especially against an opponent that is just like kind of left for dead and doesn't seem like they want to be playing half the time. It does feel like he's like over scheming at times worked against him. And he's actually spoken to this, and I appreciate his honesty in this, where he's like over complicating things, like and he's now just trying to be a little bit more basic and just like, but still be like precise with some of his sets and actions and everything. I think Conor is like the prime example of that, where it's like if you're getting this guy in good spots, like he does something very well, he has a direct tool, like JJ is the type of guy, and LeBron is certainly is the type of guy who could bring that out of him.
Speaker 2:
[49:02] Oh, for sure. I'm just kind of mystified to see this version of Luke Kennard, who I haven't done the accounting, but I would guess has played for maybe almost 10 different NBA coaches at this point. Certainly between five and 10. It's not like no one has tried to reach him, to try to make the plea, to just get up the attempts that just the shots alone will be of value to our offense in a way that JJ has articulated publicly as well, that you can sacrifice some points off your percentage, if it means having this greater effect from just getting the shots up. That case has been made. It wasn't always heard or received. Then he was played off the court because he wasn't shooting enough to kind of hold down that spot as you talked about, Justin. I don't know what changed, but I know that it is different now. And I know that JJ has clearly gotten to him in a way that none of these other coaches were really able to.
Speaker 3:
[49:52] LeBron has a long history of this. An instrument in one person's hand is played differently. Do you take the music thing again? He has such a long history of players who have done this with him. I mean, like James Jones, Channing Frye. I mean, you could say like he just rehabilitates players. I mean, he rehabilitates players and he creates at times where with a player like JR, he created an accountability and a structure. He's doing it with Aitin right now. He just elevates players value in a way that he's, I know I'm really I'm going off the rails and I mean, I'm just going wild praising him here, but I think it's just true. Speaks to why he's one of the greatest ever in that argument because he's just such a floor raiser in so many different ways as a tactician in his way to create parameters that are healthy for a JR, for the Andre Aitin to motivate. There might even be a little bit of a Duke thing between JJ and Canard. I don't know what's going on that works where they know each other, have a familiarity.
Speaker 2:
[50:50] The brotherhood.
Speaker 3:
[50:52] The brotherhood, yeah.
Speaker 2:
[50:53] Now they've got masks. I look, that's a room I don't want to go into.
Speaker 3:
[50:57] They're going to be so good next year. Go ahead.
Speaker 1:
[51:01] How did they settle on that name?
Speaker 2:
[51:02] I don't know. It was a really bad choice.
Speaker 1:
[51:04] With a straight face.
Speaker 2:
[51:04] It was a really bad choice.
Speaker 1:
[51:06] Have we talked about this in the past, the photo of Cooper Flagg holding a Trident, where it's like, I'm part of the brotherhood. I was just like, what's going on?
Speaker 3:
[51:14] It doesn't seem to bother the players. They don't seem to have branding snobbery like we do. That doesn't seem to bother them. This actually segues nicely to my thing about what I think I know. This is a broader. I had Luke Kennard on my list, but this is we need to be careful about giving up on players because of context. The Kennard was on there. Dillon Brooks is the guy that we teased him earlier in the year. I mean, we were like joking about, and it's just like, I mean, you know, and then.
Speaker 1:
[51:44] To be fair, Brooks is a lot. It's funny watching the broadcast try to put the Disney Glow on top of him just staring out at like in the distance, like he's fucking Michael Myers. It's like, oh, it's a visualization tactic. And this is how he gets in. No, he's just like, he's a mad man. Like, this is just known.
Speaker 2:
[52:06] But that's a mad man who's trying to quiet the voices in his head. That's what makes Dillon Brooks like, I don't know if he's chaotic good, but he's chaotic neutral, at least.
Speaker 3:
[52:15] Yeah, that's the, I mean, he's got a Russ type jet engine of a motor inside of him that is very similar to Russ, where Russ is maybe fun for a little bit, or if you're in a situation like Washington, where you're like, Russ, that wasn't fun times with Russ. But then if you're leaning on him, you're like, man, I kind of wish Russ wasn't here. It's like, that is a similar arc. But yeah, I was gonna say, CJ McCollum, man, is the other one that like, there are teams that could have gotten, that needed CJ, could have used him. And we were all just like-
Speaker 2:
[52:45] I floated him as a rocket straight acquisition very early in the season after Fred Van Vliet got hurt. It's hard watching both these teams now and thinking like, man, he would help them so much. It's just getting into the middle of the floor and creating in the way that he is for Atlanta right now.
Speaker 3:
[52:59] Yeah, mercilessly attacking Jalen Brunson. The Knicks have, that's a whole other conversation. But yeah, dude, that's one. And then the other one, man, I mean, Justin, I'm just gonna like shoot, I'm gonna pull and I'm gonna let you shoot this. Scoot fucking Henderson, dude. I mean, for everybody that, you know, I've watched this development really closely and I've definitely thought we were on the ropes at points. And I can't tell you the satisfaction I felt watching him ball, man. Like I was just like, god damn it, Scoot, get him. Like it was fun to watch, I'm happy for him.
Speaker 1:
[53:34] Yes, this dovetails with one of mine as well, as you might expect. I'll save the bigger like kind of casing for what I'm going for here for a little bit. But Scoot, it's funny because like he's never played like this before. That's the thing. Like this was by far the best game I've ever seen him play. He might be the best game of his entire life, this game to performance. And it wasn't so much that he was just drilling absolutely everything. It's that he went into it with the conviction that I think he thought he was the best player on the floor, which isn't typically what you've seen from him. Or at the very least it's like married with him just kind of being a little chaotic and he has to like sort himself out on the fly. He just went in there and was just like, this is my shit and then just absolutely took over the game. He was the best player on the floor, even when like Wemby was out there. And so I don't know if he can keep it up because he set such a high bar for him, but he's the type of guy it almost feels like he's been better in the playoffs through two games than he is in the regular season. I almost wonder if he just needs to be in these sort of environments and like needs to play at like the highest levels in the biggest stages in order to really be engaged because he's a fucking baller and he's been great.
Speaker 2:
[54:41] Yeah, he does feel like a gamer at this particular moment, like elevating, stepping into a matchup like this, completely undaunted, completely unfazed. That's a really difficult thing to do against not just Victor Wembenyam when he was out there before he left with the concussion protocol, but even just like Stefan Kassel flying around on all the floor. The way the Spurs guard generally, I think is difficult for a lot of guards to handle. Their scoot, complete poise, complete control of his game, making very few mistakes, if any, to be honest with you, over the course of that game. It was remarkable. Not only did I not think we would almost ever get a game like that from him, based on what we've seen so far, but I don't know that there's been many guards across the postseason right now who have put together a game like that.
Speaker 3:
[55:24] Yeah, he looked, Justin's right. I mean, he looked absolutely like, this is my time. Granted, you know, it's like the pull-up shooting stuff. It's like, what if that comes back to Earth? He'll have to add to the game in other ways. But it was very fun to see. Yeah, those are the four that I wrote down. I think it's just something to keep in mind that, you know, context is so huge. Sometimes your context is LeBron James. I've said that before. LeBron is a context himself. But it's something to just keep an eye on. I mean, could you throw Aitin in there too?
Speaker 2:
[55:59] Sure.
Speaker 3:
[56:00] Yeah.
Speaker 2:
[56:00] At least in a lesser way. I mean, he's been a positive contributor for them, but the stuff CJ is giving the Hawks, for example, is on a totally different level. Yeah.
Speaker 1:
[56:10] Well, I'm curious if you guys think there are any league-wide trends or environmental stuff that's contributing to this. Is it just like the league is so talented at this point that for guys at this level where it's like you're good, but a team's not going to orient itself completely around you, that you can cut these guys loose and another team can find the direct use for you? In basketball, you typically, unlike in football, where it's like guys fit into certain systems, and if you don't get into the right systems, you might never figure out your career, right? You always used to seem to be the case with basketball. It's a little different. It seems like now that happens a little bit more where it's like, oh, these certain guys have these certain tools, and it's just like, if you go to the right team, certain teams can take advantage of that in ways that others can't.
Speaker 2:
[56:52] You know what I wonder is a part of this problem is we're coming out of a period of the NBA where I'm not going to say that the league was completely homogenous in terms of its play style, but the types of players who were being targeted were very much of archetypal molds in very specific ways. Everyone wants like this kind of two-way wing, wants this kind of lead guard who can pull up and shoot. Everyone was kind of falling into their buckets. I think teams in terms of the way they look at the person all around the league, we're thinking, at least this is my assumption based on some of the stuff we saw, that if it didn't work for this other team and our play style is obviously very similar to theirs because a lot of the league is playing the same way, then why would they be any different for us? Why would this player who's struggling over there be different over here? That's really changed over the last two seasons. There has been a wild divergence in terms of what teams are going after, which teams are focusing offensive rebounding, which teams are falling into more mid-range offense, which teams are how they're guarding pick and roll, what your defensive shell looks like. There's a lot of variety in the league right now. I wonder if we have a little bit of a lag in terms of the way that some of these players are understood, how they might apply to your context when what CJ McCollum was doing for the Wizards, is just like not very applicable to any winning team because of the personnel that they had in the state that they found themselves in. And I'm not trying to say like scouts forgot about that, but I kind of wonder if they were indexing on some of the wrong things and missing the fact that this is a guy who can, in a very tense situation, put the ball on the floor, wiggle his way around a defender and through several lines of defense to actually make something happen. And how many teams in the league could use a guy like that?
Speaker 3:
[58:30] Yeah, it's kind of like perfectly right place, wrong time, right place, right time because the Hawks don't have, Jalen Johnson isn't fully that closer guy, dependably yet as much of the star sort of flashes and flourishes that he shows. And they needed CJ to bring that skill set that he had. And he also was going up against a 6-1 guy who was basically a cone at the end of that game. So it was just kind of a perfect marriage of moment there, I think.
Speaker 1:
[59:00] I also wonder if this is a little bit of a trickle down effect from all the tankers piling up over the course of the season, where these are the perfect league average rotation players that they're typically not going to give spots to, in part because it would help them in the standings, but also because they are stockpiled like the Jazz, the Pacers. A lot of these teams just have a lot of young guys just piling on top of each other. We saw the Jazz shut down three or four of their main guys, and they still had four drafts worth of players that they were sorting through. Is there really a middle ground? This is really the middle class of players, and they have been squeezed out if a third of the league is going in this other direction.
Speaker 2:
[59:39] How do you feel about the death of the middle class, JV?
Speaker 1:
[59:45] I don't really think about it that much. I'll be honest, you and your ivory tower in Hollywood, California?
Speaker 2:
[59:53] This is not an ivory tower, my friend. That's not how this functions. But if you want to build me a tower, handyman that you are, you and the carpenter can team up on it. I would trust you.
Speaker 3:
[60:05] I was thinking about taking it to the basketball thing, just really quickly, one more thing. When we were watching the Orlando-Detroit game, watching Kevin Herter struggle to be on the floor, really got me thinking about, Rob, what you were talking about, where the league changed and homogenized in this way, where everybody was chasing the movement shooting of the Warriors, and there were a lot of teams that were built that way. I feel like Kevin Herter was drafted with that in mind. They were like, this is a guy that's going to pitch and catch and move and hit threes. He got so scared of Anthony Black, he like slipped down, he was scared, but the pressure was bothering him. And I was like, granted, Herter on the one hand hasn't like, you think about like the Grady Dicks and there's a species of like skinny movement shooter, the finesse thing that I wonder if the physicality in the officiating has kind of, you've seen this happen in college too, where it's really changed, like the spatial generation that they, I think Mike Prada called it, but it hasn't kind of evolved the way we thought. We've kind of gone back to got two teams like the Pistons and the Magic, just slobber knocker, just play in who can be more physical, 100 to 90 score. That got me thinking about how the league's changed too.
Speaker 2:
[61:22] Well, plus the movement shooters who actually work right now are like Nikhil Alexander Walker. It's like you're a movement shooter and even then you're bothered in the playoffs, but also you might be the best defensive player on the floor. So that's kind of what it takes to succeed in some of those capacities now.
Speaker 1:
[61:36] All right, I'll do mine here just quickly. I mentioned Scoop before. I was just thinking about players, especially young players who are getting their first taste or guys who are on the younger side of things who clearly are built for the moment of the playoffs. It's the type of cliche or axiom that typically I would butt up against. I feel like this is a very millennial thing. Our entire generation is just disrupting things that people previously thought of only to rebuild them later on. Like TV, for instance, where it's just like, let's get rid of TV and just go to all these apps. All of a sudden, I'm just bundling everything at this point.
Speaker 2:
[62:12] Well, first of all, we didn't do that. We didn't make those business decisions. We just paid the subscription fees.
Speaker 1:
[62:18] We were a party to all of this happening.
Speaker 2:
[62:21] That is true. Unwitting accomplices perhaps. But yeah, we were involved.
Speaker 1:
[62:26] Much like the dismantling of the cable bundle, I've also thought about the playoff cliche of a guy being built for the moment and how they just seem so much more at ease. Scoot, prime example of that. I talked about it where it just feels like he's a completely different player. Vijay Edgecum, also in that game too, just these guys are just like they spend one or two years in college and all of a sudden are stepping into these high stakes games. He looked like one of the best players in the floor against the Celtics the other day.
Speaker 2:
[62:54] Yeah. Not only did he look amazing, he looked so loose. It's one thing to say, he's just having fun out there. It's a really hard thing to do in a playoff atmosphere. A lot of young players come into these games and they are just babes in the woods, cannot handle that initial blush of noise and pressure and all of the conflicting information in their head about how you're supposed to guard this guy, and who you're supposed to close to and all. It just becomes a lot for a lot of young players. Vijay Edgecum's not only nailing shots, not only looking amazing, but winking at the camera, having his moment. It feels like any other basketball game to him. And if you can turn a game like that into any basketball game, I think you're going to go to some really special places.
Speaker 3:
[63:39] Yeah, I think his processing mind is active, and I think he's just got a quiet presence about him. You see he has a little rag grin and things like that. You just don't get a lot of, granted if I were as athletic as him, I would probably be pretty damn confident too. He's always just kind of had that way about him. So it's been fun to watch, but not super surprising. Yeah, I think then that's one of the things that's going to propel him up. Yeah.
Speaker 1:
[64:10] Yeah, I definitely have liked the way that he's been able to weaponize his athleticism as well, because it seems like a lot of his success, particularly from the mid-range but with his jumper overall, is that he just has this leaping ability. And so if he's stopping, he's basically out leaping guys in order to get his mid-range jumper off. And you're also starting to see it start to trickle down to what he can do just distribution-wise, like that's obviously a part of his game. It's probably going to come up longer into his career. But there was one point where he jumped so high, he outlasted everyone and he just like dished it off to his big because there was just no one else there to impede it. Now the big fumbled it. But like that seems like the next evolution for that. And so you add that part, there's like the uncanny leaping ability, athleticism, but there's just like pure doggedness. Like he had 10 rebounds in that game. He's one of the best rebounders on the floor. Seems like he's always like digging in in order to do that. He just has that kind of rare combination which makes a good playoff dog where it's just like athletic Marvel plus like the right mindset in order to make things happen.
Speaker 2:
[65:12] What are there any other young playoff dogs you wanted to highlight?
Speaker 1:
[65:15] Yes, the all-playoff dog team.
Speaker 3:
[65:17] In the pound? Who's in the playoff dog pound?
Speaker 1:
[65:21] I wanted to do a dirty half dozen of dirty old dogs, but unfortunately, I didn't make it there. Well, the other guy I wanted to mention. Yeah. If he is like the patron saint of this and he was lights out against the Nuggets the other day, Dante DiVincenzo. Just it seems like now that he's more in the mix for the Timberwolves. He was there last year, but they had to prioritize him because they needed someone to fill in the Mike Cotley role this year. And he was there so often that I believe he played 82 games. Like you're starting to see some of the Knicks era, like Tibbs guy, Dante DiVincenzo start to pop in some of these like high leverage situations where he's just like, he's coming out with the ball out of a scrum and he's going the other way. He's drilling shots. He's just like, he did a lot of the in-between things in the midst of like the go-bare yolkage squaring off and the ant heroics. And so he's on the playoff dog list.
Speaker 2:
[66:12] Unquestionably a playoff dog, not a young playoff dog though, just kind of squarely in the prime of dogdom.
Speaker 1:
[66:18] I was reminded of his doggedness. And so it was nice to see.
Speaker 3:
[66:22] Has any player had one anecdote mentioned every time he comes up, every game, every announcer mentions the 2018 National Championship game with him. It's every game. Like we have to mention it. I don't know what it's about, but maybe they don't watch games enough to know that it's brought up every time, but he's one of those people. I'm trying to think of other players who have like one anecdote that is brought up constantly aside from like Famous Dad type stuff. Yeah.
Speaker 2:
[66:47] I honestly think it happens more with those sorts of college performances than it does even NBA performance. It's like you can have a great NBA run or a great NBA moment, and it just becomes part of the tapestry. But if you're Kemba Walker with the step back, they're going to talk about the step back every time you play a game.
Speaker 3:
[67:02] Yeah.
Speaker 1:
[67:02] It's like me with the playoff variables. Like, oh man, do you remember when he created this hit bit for a podcast?
Speaker 2:
[67:11] How do you feel knowing even now that that's going to be the first line of your obituary?
Speaker 3:
[67:16] It's your legacy, man. Yeah.
Speaker 1:
[67:18] Not Ace Gardner who figured out how to cross breed certain types of carrots unknowingly.
Speaker 2:
[67:23] I mean, if you get that far, you'll have earned it. You'll properly displaced your magnum opus of the variables.
Speaker 1:
[67:31] The last guys I mentioned here, more honorable mention, dirty old dogs, where I did like what Dylan Harper and Carter Bryant were doing for the Spurs, like Carter Bryant playing in high lever situations, basically, like the guy that's keying some of those smaller ball units. Dylan Harper hasn't had his moment yet, but you can already see teams guarding him bracket style as if he was James Harden. I was like, I took note of that. It feels like that's something we should watch going forward. I feel like he's going to have one of these games where he just goes off for 20, and it might be game three because if Wembe doesn't play in that one, they're obviously going to need it.
Speaker 2:
[68:04] Well, I mean, if we're anointing some of the young dogs, but the dirty old dogs, but the dirty young dogs. I mean, Wembe has showed up every second that he's been available to play. Not a surprise, but it's good to have the confirmation.
Speaker 1:
[68:16] He's an alpha, you know? He's not a dirty dog. Anything else you want to get to before we get out of here?
Speaker 2:
[68:22] I do have one more thing to close with. Not exactly basketball related, but I wanted to put it to the two of you. We put out a call last pod. We're looking for some snack playoff suggestions to really spice up our lives, namely mine. Some people emailed us at ringergroupchat.gmail.com. In particular, our guy Dylan emailed us with a bunch of suggestions. Mostly very practical. Apples and almond butter. This like jalapeno, serrano, cream cheese dip that I now have the recipe for and can share with the two of you. This very particular brand of cheese puffs that did sound good. But by extension, Dylan's fiance also chimed in with a very important suggestion for us on snacks, which is, and I quote, just make some guacamole, bitch.
Speaker 3:
[69:04] Huh?
Speaker 2:
[69:04] These are our listeners. And you know what? They're right. I think where we're thinking it, we should just make some guacamole, bitches.
Speaker 1:
[69:12] Do you guys make your own guac?
Speaker 2:
[69:13] Of course.
Speaker 3:
[69:14] Oh yeah. I got on a huge, during COVID, I got on a huge make my own guac and salsa kick. I was, like I told you, my senses are dead. So I, Megan was like, you have to stop putting like jalapenos and red onion in it. Cause I wasn't like detecting it to the level.
Speaker 2:
[69:29] You're overloading onions too?
Speaker 3:
[69:32] You know, yes I was. One thing that I do enjoy is like a pepper jelly with like a cracker. Like you ever go pepper jelly route with like a pretzel cracker?
Speaker 2:
[69:44] I had a hard time getting into it. Yeah, it's a jelly. It's a savory spicy jelly.
Speaker 3:
[69:48] Cream cheese, pepper jelly, cracker. It's pretty good.
Speaker 2:
[69:53] Yeah. I want to be a pepper jelly guy. I just, I can't get on that wavelength. But the make your own guac is definitely the move, Justin. If you're not making your own, what are we doing here?
Speaker 1:
[70:03] I do have a mortar and pestle. Well, maybe now that Ferrara is hooking us up, I'll just be scarfing down all this chocolate.
Speaker 2:
[70:13] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[70:14] Candy chocotli.
Speaker 2:
[70:15] Some Rochers. I mean, look, we got to have some product in our future. If we're going to be naming Ferrero this much on a podcast, chocolate fondue, fountain just install in my house. The idea of you as just like a man alone in your home, eating a chocolate fondue fountain for a playoff basketball.
Speaker 3:
[70:34] Justin gained 80 pounds, those playoffs.
Speaker 1:
[70:37] We're getting close. I guess we'll just one more note here. How were you interacting with both our friend, was it Dylan?
Speaker 2:
[70:44] Yeah.
Speaker 1:
[70:45] And his fiance, were you on a discord with them or something?
Speaker 3:
[70:49] Did she have like different color font that came in? It was like, oh, she's in now. Like, yeah, I don't understand that either.
Speaker 1:
[70:55] The sarcasm red.
Speaker 2:
[70:56] He relayed the quote from his fiance. So I can only assume our pod is being played in the car with both of them in their house as they're all together. So really what I think what my argument is, is like we have even more listeners than we realize. The plus ones that aren't showing up on the Nielsen's, that's what I want, I want to get a full tabulation of the, I'm gonna be honest with you, probably mostly girlfriends and wives who are trapped into listening to our podcast against their will, but they are important listeners nonetheless, and we see you. If you're out there right now, we see you, we recognize you.
Speaker 1:
[71:29] I like this. So our traffic is probably double what it actually is. I would think.
Speaker 3:
[71:32] Yeah, our female numbers are not representative. We actually have a ton of females.
Speaker 1:
[71:38] That's right. All right, why don't we wrap it there? Good night pod to kick us off. A little loosey goosey, but that ball is pinging me.
Speaker 3:
[71:46] Working on the night pod.
Speaker 1:
[71:50] All right. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Ben Cruz for staying up with us. We'll be back on Monday, so Monday morning's usual time for that recording. Wednesday, we're doing the night pods. But we'll talk to you next time. Enjoy the basketball. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here, visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts. And we'll see you next time. In New York, Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.