transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] Why were they living together? Supposed to be a pastor's book about how to do relationships. Why they shackin on relationship goals?

Speaker 2:
[00:08] Okay, if our content only shows the ideal, but never shows where people may come from, the content's not gonna resonate. Hey, wait a minute. When was the last faith-based romantic comedy that's ever been made? When was the last one?

Speaker 1:
[00:23] I don't know. Why do you continue doing it, though some people may criticize you? You don't have to do it, but you do do it.

Speaker 2:
[00:30] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[00:30] Why?

Speaker 2:
[00:32] At the end of my life, I have to be accountable to God. I've got to stand before him and take account for what he called me to do.

Speaker 1:
[00:42] I've never seen you like this.

Speaker 2:
[00:44] After nine years of marriage, B**** and DeVon Franklin are filing for divorce.

Speaker 1:
[00:50] You went on record and you said, you know, you weren't looking for love, but you were open to it. How is someone open after all of that chaos that you've endured?

Speaker 2:
[01:01] Love is the whole entire game of our human experience. Period. That's it. So if we close ourself off to love, we close ourself off to life and to God.

Speaker 1:
[01:13] I don't know what you've done with the DeVon Franklin of old. I don't know this individual sitting here right now.

Speaker 2:
[01:20] Allow me to reintroduce myself. This is The Deep End With Lecrae.

Speaker 1:
[01:29] All right, ladies and gentlemen, I am excited because today we have somebody who, a lot of us know, right? But we don't know all of the things this individual has done, the trailblazing that has happened with this gentleman that we have here today. You've been a fan of so many movies that he's had his hands in, from The Pursuit of Happiness to The Karate Kid, and did not realize that there was somebody who loved the Lord behind the scenes, making sure that you got to see things that were amazing in quality. This man is one of the few people in Hollywood who's built a sustained career at the intersection of mainstream entertainment and Christian faith. Rose from an unpaid intern to a senior vice president at Sony Pictures, launches on production company. You know, went through trial and error and still came out on top. Preacher, not a pastor, New York Times bestselling author, newly married man, actor, and made more faith-adjacent films in the last 18 months than in the prior decade alone. So, y'all, you got to give your flowers to the one, the only, DeVon Franklin.

Speaker 2:
[02:58] What's up, man?

Speaker 1:
[02:58] What's up, brother?

Speaker 2:
[03:00] Good to see you.

Speaker 1:
[03:00] I left so much off your resume.

Speaker 2:
[03:02] Man, hey, it's all right.

Speaker 1:
[03:03] I left off the fact that I, Ruth and Boaz, that I had a small, you know, if it wasn't for me, I don't know if the film would have been what it was.

Speaker 2:
[03:11] It wouldn't have been. It wouldn't have been. Well, thank you for blessing us, you know what I'm saying? You made the move, you know what I'm saying? Of course.

Speaker 1:
[03:16] So man, I just want to say, first and foremost, you have always been a light in a dark place, right? And you've opened up your world to a lot of us, right? Who have just wondered, how do we navigate faith in entertainment? And there's not a lot of people who have the level of experience and understanding that you have. And so one, I just want to thank you for that.

Speaker 2:
[03:45] Oh man, you're welcome, my brother.

Speaker 1:
[03:46] A lot of people don't know your full story. They just know what you've been involved in, or tabloids, or you're praying for people all the time on social media, right? Every time I was with Crow, your head's bowed, you're just praying. And I'm just like, this brother's just, you know. So they just know these snapshots of you, but not your story. And you have a very interesting story that even I was learning as I was doing some research for this. Like you grew up in a church, preached at 16. You told the congregation you're going to Hollywood. And then they told you that you were going to lose your faith. They said, oh, you tripping. I've heard this before. And now, you know, decades later, you're here. I'm curious. All those who said, now DeVon, it's dangerous out there.

Speaker 2:
[04:39] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[04:40] Were any part of them right?

Speaker 2:
[04:43] Um, I mean, it's like yes and no, right? Um, no from the standpoint of, okay, well, where, where was their trepidation coming from? So let's just unpack that for a minute. So they're like, hey, we perceive this industry to be so negative that if you go, there's no way you can hold on to your faith. Right? So that implies that the power of the industry is greater than the power of God. So, so in, in that regard, it's like, okay, well, if you go, that power is going to have more authority over you than, than God does. But the real issue isn't even about the industry or even about what they said. It's about what was going on in me. At the end of the day, you can't be tempted by something you don't want. Temptation is only relative to what you really desire.

Speaker 1:
[05:35] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[05:35] And so for me, when I went to go into Hollywood, I was like, yo, I want to be in Hollywood because I want to make change. That was always the goal. It was never to be in Hollywood for Hollywood's sake. It was never for fame, accolades, money, none of those things. It was like, hey, I believe this is an industry that can change the world because when you look at the impact of film and television, it impacts the culture in so many ways, sometimes good, sometimes bad, depending on your perspective. And so my goal was to always use Hollywood. And what I believe would be a good way. So no, they weren't right in some regards. And then yes, they were right, right? Because you're in an industry where there are millions of dollars at stake. There are big personalities. There's a lot of pressure to perform and to deliver and to succeed in all of those things. And so if you're not really rooted and anchored in the Lord, then it's very easy to drift and to do what they were concerned about, which was, you know, you can lose your faith. And so it's a little of both, you know? I mean, for me, I was always anchored in, this is why I want to be here. I'm here for a purpose. I'm here for a reason. And that reason has not changed in the 30 years that I've been in this business. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[06:49] Do you think you were, and I don't mean like in a negative way, do you think that be like you were naive? And if you were, does that naivete play into why you were just so passionate? Like, no, I'm going. Or did you already anticipate it was going to be a dark space and you were just like, I don't care, I'm on a mission?

Speaker 2:
[07:10] You know, at that time, we're talking about 16, 17 years old. Like, no, I didn't look at Hollywood as a dark place. OK. That wasn't even, you know, I understood that's how people perceived it.

Speaker 1:
[07:21] Right.

Speaker 2:
[07:21] But that wasn't my perception. OK. You know, I looked at Hollywood as like, wow, this is the land of opportunity. You know, look at the movies, you know, from The Color Purple to Back to the Future, to Rocky, to, you know, shows like A Different World and so many, you know, great pieces of content in between. Like I looked at it as like, wow, look at what this industry can do.

Speaker 1:
[07:39] OK.

Speaker 2:
[07:39] So I did not go into it thinking like, oh, this is going to be difficult or it's going to be dark. That wasn't my perspective. What I was most concerned about was, would I be able to be successful? That was my concern. And also because like, you know, growing up in the church, you know, my faith was just always a part of me. Yeah. You know, I mean, I got baptized, like 10 years old, you know what I mean? Like, you know, it was a deacon and an usher and played the drums in church and directed the youth choir and all the things. So church was just in me. So when I came to Hollywood, it was just a part of who I am. My first internship interview, I got an internship interview for the company that managed Will Smith. And they said, you know, what do you want us to know? I said, well, you know, I observed the Sabbath. So if taking this internship would require me to work Friday night sundown, Saturday night sundown, I'm not going to take it. But it wasn't even, it was just matter of fact.

Speaker 1:
[08:33] It was just who you were.

Speaker 2:
[08:34] Just who I was. And they were like, oh, okay, we'll work around that. And that's just how it honestly has been, you know, since from the day I got into Hollywood to right now.

Speaker 1:
[08:45] Yeah. We have a lot of similarities in that we've moved in spaces that people outside are like, uh-oh, uh-oh. And there's a lot of like, because they don't know what's on the other side of this proverbial wall, there's a lot of fear and trepidation. And with that fear and trepidation, comes a lot of judgment.

Speaker 2:
[09:06] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[09:06] Right. A lot of like, see, he'd have sold out. He's not serious anymore. How did those voices affect you early on? And I mean, did it hurt? Did it not hurt? Like, how did that affect you?

Speaker 2:
[09:22] You know, it's like growing up, I guess you could say, in the business. You know, I didn't really experience that judgment because nobody knew who I was.

Speaker 1:
[09:34] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[09:35] You know what I mean? Even in the outside world, nobody knew who I was. You know, it wasn't really until I wrote my first book, Produced By Faith, while I was an executive at Sony Pictures. And that was all about, you know, how I've been an executive, been able to maintain my faith and was encouraging readers. It was basically like how you make a movie. And then I used the metaphor of making a movie on how the reader can get their life made, you know, using God as their director and all of the things. And so that was probably the first releasing that book and promoting that book and the publicity surrounding that book. That was the first time people in the mainstream started to know who I was. Like, oh, oh, okay, there's this executive, you know, at Sony, who's also a Christian and you know, and then the faith world started to take notice and all of those things. But up until that point, I didn't experience much judgment. Once I got into the public eye, now that's when I've experienced the judgment. So on some level, it was actually a good thing that God, like, you know, almost like hid me for so long, because I just was so focused on what it is I was here to do that I never took into account really people's perception. So now as people judge me and you know, you know how it is, like people misunderstand you and then they have this point of view and then they make a judgment on that. And a lot of times it's our own people, you know, and that can be very painful, but I'm so glad that I had a foundation so that as the judgment has come, you know, I've still been able to stay anchored in who I am and have a foundation for what I do. But it hasn't been until, you know, really these past, I would say 10 years or so. And the more that I've been in the public eye and the more well-known I've become where I've been, you know, privy to and privileged to be judged.

Speaker 1:
[11:21] I, I, I, often times people with your level of success, there is, there's, there's some sort of historical fuel, right, that is like fueling this, like intense, like, no, it's, I'm going forward. And this is not the case for everybody. But for a lot of people, there's a level of intensity at a young age that helps people become very proficient at what they do. And when people are young, they're usually like aloof, they're not thinking about stuff, they're just enjoying life. But sometimes for young people, they, life gets real. And your father dies at nine.

Speaker 2:
[12:04] Yeah, when I was nine years old, when he was 36, yep.

Speaker 1:
[12:06] So life, life got real for you very fast. I know movies became a sort of therapeutic for you during that time period. Talk to me about what was happening, how did it affect you, knowing your father's gone, and how did you navigate toward movies for therapy?

Speaker 2:
[12:24] Yeah, you know, I mean, how did it affect me? It affected me greatly. I mean, even though during the course of my nine years, the nine years that I had a chance to spend with him, he was in and out of our house. He was an alcoholic and that alcoholism was a real disease for him and for one of my uncles and my grandfather. And so it really ran through the line on my father's side. And so during those nine years, you know, I saw him here and there, but he was still a presence. And so, you know, the day that he died was traumatic because we were going to go see him in the hospital. And literally we just got home from school and my mother got the call that he died. And so we go and we go to the hospital and she takes us into the morgue and there he is. And as a nine-year-old kid, I just didn't know how to process that. All I knew was like, I don't like this. And so I didn't even want to go to the funeral. I mean, I was adamant, I'm not going to the funeral. But then, you know, my family talked to me and they were like, okay, hey, here's the deal. You need to go to the funeral because we think it's important for you to have that memory and have that closure. But we won't make you go to the gravesite.

Speaker 1:
[13:34] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[13:34] So that was the deal. So I went to the funeral, you know, experienced all of that. And then I went home to where we were having the repast while everybody else went to, you know, went to the gravesite. And so, you know, coming out of that, I just remember feeling very unstable. You know, like, what is life? I just experienced death. You know, am I going to meet the same fate as my father? You know, so there were a lot of questions. Who am I? Where do I fit? I'm a middle child of three boys. And so, you know, just being a middle child in general, it can be very difficult. And it was for me, because it was like, man, what's my place? And who am I? And where do I fit? And so losing my father just really amplified those questions. And so when you talk about the role of entertainment, it was really the combination of entertainment and church.

Speaker 1:
[14:22] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[14:23] Because my father died at the beginning of, I think it was 88. And then my uncle started an independent church in Oakland, East Oakland, California, that same year.

Speaker 1:
[14:34] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[14:35] And so that church really gave us a chance to be, you know, it was just a family church. So we were very involved. And there was a lot of things that we were able to do. You know, as I mentioned earlier, you know, sweeping the floors and deaconing and ushering and, you know, giving the announcements, giving the children's story. So church became like a really positive outlet.

Speaker 1:
[14:53] That's right.

Speaker 2:
[14:53] To be able to work through the grief and then watching movies. You know, it was like, I just remember, you know, watching movies, watching the first, the first Rocky.

Speaker 1:
[15:02] I just remember like, I was gonna ask you about that. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[15:04] Like, like the thing about Rocky, he felt, he thought he was a bum. He didn't even want to win the championship. He just wanted to go the distance so that he could prove to himself that he was worth something. And as a young kid, I related to that because I didn't feel like much. I didn't feel like I was worth much. You know, I was like, again, I'm a middle child. I'm like, man, I don't know where I fit. My older brother gets the attention, you know, cause he's the first one. My younger brother's the cute one. He gets the attention and I'm just left in the corner. You know, that's how I felt growing up. And so it was, you know, finding this almost, it's almost like a re-prefinding this piece and watching, you know, these movies and shows and, you know, back to the future, like, wow, how are they able to do that? And the visual effects and it just captivated my imagination. And so it was really that combination of things, because mom didn't have no money for therapy. You know, we were on welfare and, you know, it was just a very, at that time, a very difficult moment financially. You know, we ultimately, you know, moved in with my grandparents. You know, it was five of us in one room. Then my grandparents, you know, slept in the driveway, in their RV, so that me and my brothers and my mom could have a place to sleep. Like, this is, you know, where I was, you know? And so, you know, having that kind of foundation and a lot of questions, it was just like Hollywood and faith. Those things were the things that I latched onto. And so, the fuel for me was like, yo, I gotta go prove to myself that I can do this. And because it just, there was, it just, I just felt like God put Hollywood in my spirit as a thing to go do. And the fuel was, I gotta prove to myself that I can do it. You know, I gotta prove, you know, that I have talent, I have skills, that I have the ability. And so the fuel was, you know, probably rooted in that trauma, rooted in, you know, being that middle child and like, no, I'm gonna find my place. I'm gonna find it. And I don't care. I don't know nobody in Hollywood at that time. I'd had no family in the business. It didn't matter because I felt like this is where I had to come in order to really discover who I was.

Speaker 1:
[17:18] Yeah, it's very interesting to hear you, you know, like do you feel like you were a mature 18 year old going off to Hollywood because of this trauma that fueled you to be like, I gotta get this?

Speaker 2:
[17:31] Absolutely.

Speaker 1:
[17:32] So you felt more mature.

Speaker 2:
[17:33] Definitely. Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1:
[17:34] How would you compare yourself to your peers at that time? What was your perspective when you get to Hollywood versus a lot of the other young people that you saw around you in Hollywood?

Speaker 2:
[17:43] Yeah, you know, it's like I had a, because I was so passionate about the industry, I did a lot of research. You know, scripture talks about, you know, study to show yourself approved. And so in high school, it was like, you know, I wasn't just watching the movies, I was looking at who made the movies, who wrote the movies, what studios released the movies, who has production deals, who doesn't. Like I was just immersed in the business. And at 16 years old, you know, I was playing basketball in my freshman, sophomore year in high school. I got a car and the deal for me to get the car was I had to pay the car insurance. So my junior and senior year of high school, instead of playing basketball, I got an afterschool job. And so that afterschool job, I was, you know, almost like an administrative assistant at this nonprofit. And so going in there every day, you know, like having a work ethic, learning how to deal with people, you know, understanding what it takes to run an office. Like, so by the time I was 18 years old, I just was very clear, like I'm going to LA to go to school. I'm going to get an internship in the business because I need to know if I really want to do it and if I'm good at it. And this is going to be my focus. And that was that. So 18 years old, man, I was tunnel vision. So the difference between me and others is that, you know, 18 years old, you're still exploring, you know? And so some of my peers, you know, when I went to college, I went to USC, majored in business, minored in film, because I got rejected from the film school. Okay. They were like, no. And that's the thing about God. Like God is going to reject you from the places that can't protect you. You know what I'm saying? Like, he just gonna be like, nah, that ain't it. You know, and I'm glad it wasn't it. Because if I had gotten into film school as a freshman, I would have never gotten the internship. And the internship is what really got me started in my career and getting the foot in the door. So that was the difference. I had an awareness of the industry. I knew what I wanted to do. And I hit the ground running at A-Team with the plan.

Speaker 1:
[19:32] So, you're, you know, I understand what it's like to be in the industry as a believer, right? To like, okay, I'm bumping up against perspectives that are, you know, different than mine. Probably a little more often than I, you know, might have thought. I'm just curious for you, you know, you were solid in your faith, you had your foundation, but had you had prior experiences that prepared you to be in a world where your Christian perspective was different? And like, what advice would you give a Christian who's stepping into Hollywood?

Speaker 2:
[20:15] Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's like, I went to school in the Bay Area in a, you know, the church was in Oakland. The school that I went to was in Albany. And so Albany is like, you know, not Albany, New York, Albany, California. And it's right next to Berkeley and Oakland, Richmond. You know, so it's almost like an urban suburb. And so a lot of students from UC Berkeley, I mean, their children went to these Albany middle school and high school. So my school was very diverse. So being a Christian and being, you know, one of the few Christians at school was not, it was not an uncommon thing. That's just kind of how it was. And there were students there from all over the world because UC Berkeley would get students from all over the world. And so those students would have children and those children would come to the school. So it was not an uncommon experience for me to have interaction with people who had a totally different background, a totally different thought process, a totally different upbringing. And one of the things that I went through in high school, like freshman year, was it was basically like diversity training, I guess you could say. And it was called like the Peacemaker Program. And one of the things that it taught was tolerance. And that one of the ways to create a healthy community is to have tolerance for people's differences. And so that was really the foundation of high school. So by the time I was 18 coming to LA, pursuing a career in Hollywood, it was not an uncommon thing to have interactions with people who just had a different point of view. And what I would say to, you know, when you ask the question about, well, what would you say to people, you know, trying to pursue Hollywood? I go back to the word, right? We love the story of the prodigal son. We have to remember, Jesus, that's a parable. Jesus told the parable of the lost coin, the lost sheep, the lost son, as a response to the Pharisees, critiquing him for sitting down with sinners. And so they're like, hey, how can you sit with people that are different than you? That we don't think you should be sitting with? And Jesus is like, oh, let me tell you how I operate. And he goes on to give him the parable of the lost son, I mean, the lost coin, the lost sheep, the lost son. And so what that for me was like, hey, the whole purpose of our faith is to share it and to create opportunities to engage with people that think totally different, because we're all God's children. So I would give that advice to anybody pursuing Hollywood, be open, understand who you are, appreciate who you are, but also open up your heart, because you have no idea how you being open to somebody, they may have a totally different point of view, they may have a totally different walk of life, and they come across you and you plant a seed. And then who knows what happens with that seed? So I would encourage, don't be afraid. Be open, know your boundaries, know yourself, but don't be afraid to interact and engage with people who have different points of view.

Speaker 1:
[23:10] So you come to Hollywood with the mindset of, I want to see transformation. I want to change some things here. I want to bring my unique perspective here and make a difference. Do you feel like you are effective? And when did you realize this is what God called you to do? Like it's effective?

Speaker 2:
[23:36] You know, that's an interesting question. You know, I still question, is it effective? I pray that it is, you know, I hope, man, like, you know, some days I wake up and I'm like, oh Lord, I don't know what I'm doing. This ain't working. So, you know, but I think one of the first memories that I have of like feeling like, oh, okay, there's some purpose here, which is, you know, I was interning and while I was interning, I was, my freshman and sophomore year, I was primarily interning for Benny Medina. And Benny Medina, you know, at the time was managing Babyface and he currently manages Jennifer Lopez. And so when I was in the office as an intern, I would function kind of like his third assistant. And so one night we were at the office very late and I was, you know, we were helping him get ready for a trip that he was getting ready to go on. And so he was going to go from the office to the private port and take the jet to the meeting. And so right before we leave, you know, I just say, hey, you know, would you mind if I pray with you for traveling mercies? And you know, he kind of paused and he was like, okay. So me and the other assistants and Benny all got in a prayer circle and I prayed for traveling mercies. And he was like, thank you. I really appreciate that. He went on about his way. And that for me was like, okay, all right. You know, it's not, success is not just the projects. You know, success is okay. Well, what impact can I have on the people? So that was really my earliest memory of like, okay, I don't know how all this is going to work out, but I feel like this is why I'm here. You know, I'm here to be of service. I'm here to, you know, minister on some level. And so, you know, that was my earliest memory. And then over the years, you know, seeing the open doors, you know, going from, you know, quitting my job. Well, I didn't quit my job as an intern. I got a job as an assistant to Will's manager. And then after about two years, I quit my job and then, you know, got a job working for Tracy Edmonds at her production company. And then left there to go to MGM. And then MGM got sold to Sony. And I was one of two executives out of thousands to be able to make the transition to Sony. And then the first movie I get a chance to work on at Sony was Pursuit of Happiness. I mean, so I just have seen the open doors. So that's also been another indicator to me, like, okay, I believe I'm heading in the right direction.

Speaker 1:
[25:59] Yeah, a lot of times, someone could look at your story and look at the success you've had and feel like, well, sheesh. I mean, the guy's got it made. Everything worked out for him. But if you peel back the layers a little bit, you got Karate Kid, Pursuit of Happiness. You break through, you sign on to do a production deal with Paramount, and then 2019 happens. And COVID hits, and everything comes crashing down. Talk to me about where your head was, where your heart was, where your faith was during that, after all that success. And then, bam.

Speaker 2:
[26:44] Boom, nothing. Man, that was a tough period of time. Why? Because one of the greatest temptations that we face is in success to tether our identity to the achievements. So when the achievements start to shake, they start to wobble, what happens to our identity? So that's what happened to me. I still was Christian, but had attached so much of my own self-worth to the achievements. And having this big deal at Paramount, and wanting to make all these different movies, and then COVID hits, and all of my executives and assistants, then everyone has to work from home, and then by the time COVID starts to settle, one of the movies that I was going to make, the new chairman of Paramount at the time didn't want to make the movie, put it in turn around. And so by the time my deal was up, I had nothing to show for it. And so as someone who prides himself in their work, to be able to look back and say, wow, this company gave me money, and I didn't make good on the return, I didn't make good on the investment, man, it really affected my self-esteem, because I looked in the mirror and I just was like, wow, man, maybe I'm not who I think I am. And I felt like a failure, to be quite honest with you. And then I had to let go, my deal, I lost my deal and had to let go of most of my executives and most of my support staff and had to give up my office space. I had amazing office space in West Hollywood and had to go work from the kitchen table. So it was a humbling time. It was a time when I really on some level felt humiliated, because this was all very public. And then on another level, I said, okay, underneath that humiliation, there's humility. And so I was like, okay, Lord, well, maybe you don't want me to produce. Okay, I was just saying, Lord, whatever you want me to do, it was a moment of pure surrender, wherever you want me to go. Because maybe you've called me to produce for a season, maybe there's something else you want me to do. Maybe you want to send me in a totally different direction. But I just had to humble myself before the throne and be like, not my will, Lord, but yours be done. And in those moments, man, it was probably some of the most difficult times of my career and life. It's like, imagine, it's like you get the Columbia Records deal. Shoot, man, what if it didn't pan out? You know what I mean? And it's like, Columbia was like, wait a minute, I thought you were gonna be, and then it's like, well, shoot, the albums, they spent all this millions of dollars and they ain't got, man, you know? And everybody knew, you know what I'm saying? So for me, it was like, it was that. Like it was, you know, I had a big announcement in the trades, this big deal with Paramount, and then boom, and then nothing, nothing, man. So it was a humbling moment. It was a difficult moment.

Speaker 1:
[29:46] How do you overcome? How do you get past it? How do you grow through that?

Speaker 2:
[29:51] You know, first, I just had to sit in it, you know? I just had to feel it, you know? It's like, we don't like to feel what we perceive as failure. So we like to rush through it. I don't want to feel this way. So, but for me, it was like, no, I have to sit in this and I have to evaluate and assess. Okay, what was my role in this? What could I have done differently? And then as I do my assessment and I sit in those feelings, then I say, okay, well, where am I going now? You know, and it just so happened that like around that time, I was able to make a film for Fox called Flamin Hot. I'm about the creator of Flamin Hot Cheetos.

Speaker 1:
[30:30] Great movie.

Speaker 2:
[30:31] Thank you. I really enjoyed that film. We had a lot of fun making that movie. And so that movie, getting the green light was a sign from God to me that, you know, I still have this for you, you know? And so I just said, okay, well, I'm going to take it one step at a time. I'm not going to, cause see originally my thought was like, oh, you know, when I had that Paramount deal, okay, I'm going to build this big media company and I have this Paramount deal and I have this CBS deal and I'm doing publishing and I'm doing this and that. And that was the goal, right? And I even talk about this in my audio book, Be True. I had in my office, I had a color pie chart that literally said the DeVon Franklin universe. And it had all the things that I wanted to do and was doing and all that. And then fast forward, you know, COVID and all the things happened and then I lose my whole office. Don't even have an office to put the pie chart in, right? Lose everything. And so I remember taking that piece of paper and setting it on fire and saying, God, maybe I made this the altar. Let me get rid of my idea of how I think it needs to look and just take one step at a time and see where you take me. That's how I did it. Just taking one step at a time because I was like, oh, maybe I'm the one putting too much pressure on myself trying to make this thing happen. Maybe this thing is not what God has ordained or at least not in this season. Because you know how it is, we can get into efforting. It's like, oh, I'm putting all this effort into making it happen. I'm putting all this effort. Don't get me wrong. To be successful, effort is required. But there's a difference to me between rendering effort and efforting. You know, I feel that there's a difference there. And so at different stages in my career, I was efforting. I was making, trying to make this happen, trying to push, trying to push this success up a hill, this rock up the hill. And God was like, I'm gonna let that boulder roll all the way down. Now, you don't have to push it up the hill, right? When I call you up this hill, there's gonna be momentum. It's gonna take some of your effort, but you're gonna have to effort yourself to the top. And so that's what happened, man. I just took one step at a time. I made Flamin Hot and finished that film, started looking for a deal, another deal, and there was none. There was no deal to be had. And this is something where I think like, I'm grateful we're having this part of the conversation because we are so ready to praise God when we're at the mountaintop. But what does prayer and praise look like in the valley? And can we thank him in the valley the same way we would thank him on the mountaintop? And I had to really learn that because I was a lot of times just praising, oh, everything's going great, everything's going great, everything's great. Yes, God, God, God, God. Amen, amen, amen. But now it's like, yo, you don't have a deal. You're working from home, right? And as a producer in Hollywood, if you don't have a deal, it's very hard to stay in business. The deals from studios help fund the entire company and also provide legitimacy. And so you don't have a deal. You are borderline not a legitimate producer at that time. And so I had to just sit there and say, okay, God, you brought me to this business. Maybe this is not what you want me to do anymore. And after Flamin Hot came out and it was successful, there was still no deal, none. And so I just said, okay, God, well, maybe, cause a lot of people think I'm a pastor. I'm like, I'm not a pastor, I preach. I said, but maybe you want me to preach more. Maybe that's what you want me to do. Maybe you want me to write books. Maybe you want me to go take a job. I don't know. But I really just had to sit there and be open to what he wanted me to do. But one of the things I never did was I never gave up my identity. Like I know I'm talented. I know that I'm a good leader. I know that I'm a good communicator. Those things I was always very clear about, but what was going to happen, I didn't know.

Speaker 1:
[34:37] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[34:38] Didn't know.

Speaker 1:
[34:39] That's very interesting. You mentioned being a great leader, being a great communicator. And that's something that I notice about you, right? Like I noticed that if someone's not intentional with you, they could assume that you're fine, right? You can say it and it sounds like everything's great. You smile, you're positive, you're encouraging, and yet you've endured a lot of hardship.

Speaker 2:
[35:16] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[35:19] You're talking about a season of life where the thing that everyone identified you with is crumbling.

Speaker 2:
[35:26] Absolutely.

Speaker 1:
[35:27] You know, you've experienced, you know, family trauma, relationship trauma, and now you're at this place where like, I don't think people would see you as someone who's like, I surrender. I surrender.

Speaker 2:
[35:43] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[35:46] How, because you're recently married.

Speaker 2:
[35:49] Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 1:
[35:51] How does, if someone were to talk to you in that season where everything seemed like it was in turmoil.

Speaker 2:
[35:58] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[35:59] You know, you went on record and you said, you know, you weren't looking for love, but you were open to it.

Speaker 2:
[36:05] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[36:06] I'm just curious, how is someone open after all of that chaos that you've endured? Like, are you, like most people wouldn't say they're open. They're like, uh-uh.

Speaker 2:
[36:15] Uh, I'm, no, wrong, I'm just, I'm going home, I'm good.

Speaker 1:
[36:19] Yeah. How do you get to that place?

Speaker 2:
[36:23] Oh man. You know, you know, listen, one of the things that, you know, I learned early on, which I think was very helpful, was therapy.

Speaker 1:
[36:35] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[36:35] You know, like, like getting in the therapy, you know, once I got older, you know, got health insurance and had the money to go to therapy, I finally was able to do that. And, you know, being in therapy and really being able to talk through, you know, just my issues and, you know, my shortcomings and my trauma and all those things, it created a process of self-evaluation. It just created a process of like assessment and, and not jumping to conclusions, right? About like one thing or another. And so when I was in that season and it felt like everything was crumbling, you know, it was a moment where I just sat there and I was like, okay, I want to react, but let me, let me evaluate here. Let me really just sit and just evaluate like, well, what led to this and what led to that? And yep, because you were this, you know, because you're trying to be the nice guy, because you're not speaking your piece, because you know, you really, you really know that you should have, I advocated for that particular project, but you didn't because you were playing politics. Like I just sat there and said, okay, because I could have taken it as like, oh, you know, all this stuff is happening to me, you know, and there was a temptation at times to feel that way, but then my power is gone. If it's happening to me, then I don't have any ability to affect anything. And so I said, okay, there are things that are happening that I didn't pray for, that I actually don't want, that I don't like, but what can I do about it? What can I do? What is my process? So when all hell was breaking loose and everything was falling by the wayside, what I was able to hold on to is myself. Like, okay, God, you've given me this therapist. You've given me a life coach. Let me just work on myself. Let me work on the areas that I need to improve, impersonally, because at the end of the day, that's what was happening. Even though parts of my internal world were strong, other parts were very weak. You know what I mean? Insecurities and doubts and fears and this idea that if I'm the nice guy, then all things are going to work out. Well, no, that's not true. It's about being the true guy. It's about being the true girl, not the nice girl or the nice guy. That's what I've learned, because sometimes we think, oh, if I'm nice, everything's cool. No, be true. Because when we are true to what we feel, what we think, who we are, that to me is when I experience life start to change. And so in those moments, man, I had to get to a place of truth. And I had to get to a place where I had to say, no matter what people think of me, I can't let that be the thing that determines what I do. I had to say, you know what? Some people are not gonna understand, some people are gonna judge, people are gonna criticize. At the end of the day, I have to be true. And discovering what I felt was true for me had really became the anchor to pull me out of that. And one last thing I'll say is when you talk about everybody would never know, you know what I mean? And that's one of the reasons why I love even having this conversation in this season that I'm in is that my intent was not to necessarily project that kind of thing, you know, like, oh, this, this, you know, image of perfection, you know, which is not really what I was intentionally doing. But then, you know, when I started to peel back the layers and evaluate, I was like, oh, that's what I was doing. Because in school, you know, they called me Mr. Perfect growing up, you know. And at first I thought that was a good thing. And then I got older. I said, that's a terrible thing. Because nobody's perfect. Jesus was perfect. We are not. We are trying every day to figure out how to navigate this thing called humanity and flesh and spirit. That is our daily thing. And some days we get it right. And some days we get it really wrong. And to understand that's what makes us human. You know, at first I was like, well, I don't want to be perceived as human. I want to be perceived as superhuman. And I got it all together. And coming out of, you know, the season that I went through, I was like, yo, I am, I am a man. I'm a man of God and I am a human being. And some days I get it right. Some days I don't. And I'm okay with the journey that I'm on. And I want to express more of what I've been through as a way to give a lot more texture and context to how people perceive me and also to be more of greater service. Because, you know, people are watching, listening. I don't want anybody to think that like, oh, this is just a smooth path. It's not. It's not.

Speaker 1:
[41:14] I've never seen you like this. I have never, and I'm just being honest. I've never seen you like this. And all the years I've known you, you know, I mean, again, I've seen glimpses of, like, the layers behind the image.

Speaker 2:
[41:34] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[41:34] Right. But I don't, but again, I have proximity. There's people who don't have proximity to you, who have had this, like, he just, everything just works out. He just, he's just fine.

Speaker 2:
[41:47] He's just fine.

Speaker 1:
[41:48] And it's so interesting that you say you, you grew up, people called you Mr. Perfect.

Speaker 2:
[41:52] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[41:52] And I can tell you've really done some work.

Speaker 2:
[41:54] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[41:54] Because you're able to process all of this and acknowledge it and then to be transparent about it. So it's a lot of healing work.

Speaker 2:
[42:03] No, it is a lot. It's a lot of healing work, man. And that's what makes me grateful for everything I've been through. You know, because that image that I was putting so much energy into, you know, God had to, it was an idol. What's the first commandment? You shall have no other gods before me. And when we really get with God, whatever idol we have is crumbling. And even the idol of self. And for me, like I had to break free to be able to sit here and to be able to like, yo, like here's life. You know what I mean? Like, here's where we are. Here's, you know, here's what it's like to go through some stuff. You know, it's like, man, listen, I growing up, man, like, oh.

Speaker 1:
[42:48] That was gonna touch on that. I literally, I was like, cause you got the visible, that's not Mr. Perfect type of stuff.

Speaker 2:
[42:54] I was like, Mr. Perfect, you know, it wasn't. But you know, growing up, it was like, man, I always wanted to, you know, get a tattoo. But then I was like, no, I don't want to do that because I don't, you know, that just doesn't align with, you know, my image. And, and you know, when I was going through, you know, I realized this, this season of just God rebuilding everything, that was part of my truth. It was like, no, you know, I want reminders of what I'm about. Live free. You know, who the sun says free is free indeed. Love wins. At the end of the day, when you asked me about being open, it's because this love, love, love is the whole entire game of our human experience. Period. That's it. So if we close ourself off to love, we close ourself off to life and to God. Period. And so when I was going through the worst time of my life, I was, I just said, yo, like, man, listen, I don't care. I gotta stay open to love. I just have to, you know, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not gonna let the enemy win. I'm not, because what's the win of the enemy? To get me as a man, close my heart, be callous, pursue your career, turn off your heart, the enemy wins. A man whose heart is open, a man whose heart is open to love, unstoppable. So that's why I was like, yo, I need this on me to remind myself of what I'm about, you know, and it's also Bruce Lee's handwriting, you know what I mean? So, you know, I needed, you know, I wanted to have some context, you know what I'm saying? And, you know, and then, and then for me, it's just about being in this space of like, I just, I just got to be true, man.

Speaker 1:
[44:38] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[44:39] That's, that's, that's what it is. And again, people can take that. Some people gonna love this version. They ain't gonna like it, you know? I'm sure people are gonna be like, oh, you know, you got tattoos and you talking about tattoos. This is me. This is me.

Speaker 1:
[44:50] I don't know what you've done with the DeVon Franklin of old. I don't know this individual sitting here right now.

Speaker 2:
[44:57] Allow me to reintroduce myself.

Speaker 1:
[45:01] Man, it's encouraging. And here's one thing that I'll say, because, you know, people take things in all kinds of ways, and we're not responsible for how things are taken. But what I'll say is that, man, oftentimes we don't know what to do with a person once they don't fit our perception or image that we have in their mind. And what I've been challenged to do and challenged other people to do is to say, man, that person is still made in the image of God, regardless of if they didn't fit that box that you thought they should fit in. God sees them as somebody significant and wants to still do significant and incredible things with them. Can you support that? Can you get behind that? You know, like, he's not the Mr. Perfect that you thought he was, or he's not the super Christian guy that you thought I was, but God's plans for me are not canceled because I didn't fit in your box.

Speaker 2:
[46:05] Right.

Speaker 1:
[46:06] And I think that's something that I just would encourage you, you know, just to man, again, please keep going. You know what I'm saying? Like, cause it makes a difference. You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2:
[46:17] No, I appreciate that, man. That's so good. That's so good. You know, the plans, cause also I feel like, you know, what relates to that is like to be in culture, you know, to be in Hollywood and to be focused on like, okay, how do I, my mission is, I'm on a mission for the kingdom, you know? So the content and the producing and the acting, whatever God calls me to do in this business, it's like, how does this bring you glory, you know? And that's also where it's like, I've learned, okay, I have to be obedient to what he's called me to do and understand that part of that obedience is to be okay with people misunderstanding or not liking or judging and just say, no, uh-uh, you know? And there's not much that we can do about that, that I can do about it. I do my best to have conversations like this so people really get a chance to know who I am, but my mission remains the same. You know, I'm in this business on a mission for what God has called me to do, to make content that can uplift and inspire. That's what I'm here to do. And if I can't do that, then there's no need for me to be in this business.

Speaker 1:
[47:29] Yeah. So you're in a new space, a new headspace, a new outlook on life. And in the middle of your healing process, your healing journey, you do the Ruth and Boaz film.

Speaker 2:
[47:44] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[47:45] Which I did get the pleasure of being a part of.

Speaker 2:
[47:48] Yes, you did. And you were good, by the way. You were really good, man.

Speaker 1:
[47:51] Listen, I just, you know, maybe it opens up more doors. You never know.

Speaker 2:
[47:54] Now, mind you, this is the second movie I put you in.

Speaker 1:
[47:56] That's right.

Speaker 2:
[47:56] Second movie.

Speaker 1:
[47:57] That's right.

Speaker 2:
[47:57] So you know, we gon go for a third.

Speaker 1:
[47:59] All right. You know what I mean? How is your, like, was this movie cathartic for you? Did it help you in your healing journey? Was it like, did you learn anything from making this film for your own current relationship? Like, how does it fit into the DeVon Franklin world?

Speaker 2:
[48:18] Yeah, man, you know, making Ruth and Boaz was just a beautiful experience. You know, there hadn't been, you know, a modern version of that story in a very long time. And not one with this kind of, you know, twist, this musical, you know, twist. Not that it was a musical, but it definitely was music driven. And the irony is that once I came up with the idea and I pitched it to my buddies who are frequently collaborate with Mike Elliott and Corey Tynan and they wrote, you know, relationship goals and Mike Elliott wrote Brown Sugar and Like Mike and so many other great screenplays. And so I pitched it to them and they were like, yeah, well, we love that. And then they came up immediately with the concept on how to make it into a film. And I was like, bet, I love that. You know, got Netflix to sign off on it and we started making it. Now we started developing the script. Now here was the irony. As I was developing that is when I met Maria, one of our mutual friends, he hit me up and was like, yo, he sent me her IG, what do you think of her? I'm like, oh, yes, she's amazing. And he's like, great. He's like, I'm setting y'all up. And he said, setting y'all up. I was like, yeah. So we end up doing basically a blind date with him. His mother was in town and her, and we got together. And then a week later, we went on our first date, which was a hike. And in that moment, I knew like, you know, you just know, you're like, oh Lord, so this is what you're doing. Like really? Okay, God. So I just was kept open. So as we were developing Ruth and Boaz, the writer, they gave me the script and I'm reading it. And I'm like, y'all, I'm living some of this right now. Like this scene right here, this, I'm living this. You know what I'm saying? And so it was just amazing as the, the movie started to get made and Maria and I started to develop, it was just incredible. The way that life imitated art, art imitated life. And for me, what it did was I was like, oh yeah, this is definitely a movie God wants to put out there because this is the area where we lose the most hope. In love. And Ruth and Boaz is all about don't lose hope in love. Don't. Because that's when, when you lose hope and you give up on love, you give up on everything. And so it was amazing to me that Maria and I, you know, we're able to, you know, we got engaged and obviously, you know, got married in the last summer of last year. And it's been amazing, man. And so I'm like, yo, y'all need to watch Ruth and Boaz. There's something on that movie, okay? There's something on that movie. You can stream it on Netflix right now, okay? But it was cathartic. It was divine. It was a blessing. And I was so grateful to be able, because again, going back to truth, as a filmmaker, any movie that I make needs to come from some level of truth. And to me, like literally experiencing what I was experiencing and being able to provide that authenticity in some ways to the story. And then also for the writers just to be tapped into what they were doing. And then they give it to me and I'm like, how did y'all know? I didn't tell you this. So it was just one of those divine experiences, man.

Speaker 1:
[51:29] How does she feel about the movie? How Maria feels about it?

Speaker 2:
[51:31] Oh man, she loves it. First time I showed it to her, she cried.

Speaker 1:
[51:34] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[51:34] She cried. She just was like, oh my goodness, this is the story. This is amazing.

Speaker 1:
[51:40] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[51:40] You know, I mean, she's been a Christian all her life. And to see, you know, that story come to life, she was the first person I showed it to. And, you know, I said, okay, if she crying, then that means-

Speaker 1:
[51:50] You might have some.

Speaker 2:
[51:51] We might have some, you know.

Speaker 1:
[51:54] Is it, you know, with her and you now in a different headspace, but you're still in this industry, you're still in this fast-paced industry. Is it, do you approach things differently? Does she see it? Is it like, wow, look at all this? Or is it kind of like, have you shown her like everything that glitters ain't gold? How does that work?

Speaker 2:
[52:17] Well, you know, she's been in the industry, you know, to some degree, she's a trainer and has trained, you know, people of all different walks of life and a number of people in entertainment. So she's had experience in it. So when we came together, it wasn't a new thing.

Speaker 1:
[52:32] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[52:32] You know, so there wasn't really like, oh, you know, she needs to know this or that. It was more of us coming together and we both have a pretty good understanding of the business. And at the end of the day, it's really about like, okay, we understand that, but it's about us.

Speaker 1:
[52:44] That's good.

Speaker 2:
[52:45] You know what I mean? It's about nurturing our hearts. It's about providing protection, you know, for our union and pouring in to each other. And no matter what happens in the world, no matter what happens in the business, if we keep that our priority, everything else, you know, is put in the right perspective.

Speaker 1:
[53:03] Yeah. So Ruth and Boaz. Yes, a relationship movie and then relationship goals.

Speaker 2:
[53:12] A relationship movie.

Speaker 1:
[53:13] Safe to say, you're like hitting on something that you feel like the culture needs. Why did you decide to work with Mike Todd on relationship goals?

Speaker 2:
[53:25] Yeah, you know, I mean, I've known my brother, you know, Mike, man, for years, we met, I think it was like 2019 at a church event and on the Facebook campus, actually. And we met and was like, hey, man, you know, I'm a big fan and we just connected. And then probably about a year later, I saw that his book, Relationship Goals, hit the New York Times best seller. So it's a best seller's list. And so as a producer, you know, every producer is always looking at the New York Times best seller's list for books that they can convert into movies. And so when I saw his book hit the New York Times best seller's list and I saw how many people were talking about it and being affected by the message of it, that's when I hit him up. It was during COVID, I was like, yo, man, have you ever thought about turning this into a movie? And he was like, as a matter of fact, I have. I'm like, oh really? And he sent me a few pages of an idea on how to make it into a film and thankfully he let me option it and I put it together with Mike Elliott and Corey Tynan and we sold it to Amazon and just started developing it. So it was just a very organic process to be honest with you. And the Relationship Goals book is a book of principles. There's no narrative there. So that was probably the hardest thing to do was to figure out, okay, what's the story that we could create that would still be rooted in the principles of the book and honor the book? And that just took years. So it was just honestly a coincidence that I made Ruth and Boaz and went right into Relationship Goals. That was coincidence. It wasn't planned. Because I've been developing Relationship Goals before I made it for five years.

Speaker 1:
[54:55] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[54:56] Yeah. I was developing Ruth and Boaz for a couple months. We did the treatment, did the script, boom, went and made it. Whereas Relationship Goals, I thought I was going to make Relationship Goals before Ruth and Boaz. But Amazon wasn't ready to make it. So I went ahead and made Relationship Goals for Netflix, and then rolled right into Relationship Goals for Amazon. So that timing is gone.

Speaker 1:
[55:15] Okay. So I'm going to be honest with you. I didn't like Relationship Goals, and let me tell you why.

Speaker 2:
[55:21] Tell me why.

Speaker 1:
[55:23] I didn't like it because I was not called to be a part of that film.

Speaker 2:
[55:30] And man, you know, listen, once Method Man showed up, man, he took your part. You know what I'm saying? He took your part.

Speaker 1:
[55:37] I'll give you, I will extend grace. Thank you. I will extend grace.

Speaker 2:
[55:41] Thank you. Thank you.

Speaker 1:
[55:43] But there, you know, I have seen some people say, of course, the church people, they have their critiques. And I've seen a critique of like, well, why were they living together in relationship goals? If this is supposed to be a pastor's book about how to do relationships. And I'm curious, like, how you process approaching these types of critiques or things like that. Because, I mean, obviously, you know, I'm sure if anybody's read your book, The Weight, it's vastly different than how things planned, played out in relationship goals. But yet and still, there's a happy ending in relationship goals. What would you say to that person who's saying, you know, why they shacken on relationship goals?

Speaker 2:
[56:38] Okay, so let me try to answer that in a succinct way. So if we go back to the foundation of our faith, the Bible, how does it start? In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. It starts almost from a storytelling standpoint. And so if you were to make the Bible into a movie, there's gonna be violence, murder, incest, adultery, all kinds of things. And so if God, through the experiences that are captured in the Bible, wanted us to have the truth about what it means to operate in virtue versus vice, what it means to operate in spirit versus flesh. If we didn't understand the vice, if we didn't understand the flesh from which the spirit comes from or the virtue comes from, we wouldn't appreciate it. And so I believe that the Bible is as real and as raw as it is because it helps us understand the message. It does. Like if you go read the story of David, okay, David knocks Goliath out with the stones, but it says, what does he say? He goes to Goliath, takes his own sword, cuts off his head. David takes his head to King Saul and said, oh, is this the one that you were afraid of? Right? Now imagine if that was made into a movie, that's going to be an R rated scene. Right? So now let me answer your question directly. When I am making a movie, I am making a movie in a way that no matter where somebody is, they can still find themselves and then find a path. So when you look at the Relationship Goals movie, each one of those women in the film are in different stages and relationships because everybody watching the film is going to be at different stages. And if our content only shows the ideal, but never shows where people may come from, the content is not going to resonate. So having that couple that was making the decision to live together, what does she ultimately do? Because she found the book, she said, I'm not doing this anymore. I'm not doing this anymore because this is not the way that it's supposed to be. To me, that's far more empowering than to just make a movie where none of the characters are doing anything wrong or anything, what we may deem, hey, wait a minute, that may not be the way God wants. That movie is not going to resonate. It's not going to touch anybody. And so the goal with storytelling, the same way the stories are in the Bible, telling stories in the form of movies or television shows that can be relevant in culture, resonate, but also maybe provoke thought. So when someone sees relationship goals, you say, wow, okay, man, maybe I do, maybe I gotta fix my aim. And if I fix my aim and I really start to align my love life with God's intent, what does that do for my life? And so that's why when I see criticisms like that, I say, hey, man, listen, God bless everybody. But I think sometimes we miss the point. You know, how many people, how many millions of people watch relationship goals and said, wow, I'm gonna fix my aim. There have been so many testimonies that have come from that film on what it has done for people's love life, their professional life, their family life, because just that idea of, man, my aim was off. I was shooting at the wrong thing. And so for me, when I'm making a film, I wanna tell a story that's real so that people can find a place to relate. And then here's where we're gonna take you. Here's where we're gonna end up. And sometimes people in the faith community get it, sometimes they don't. And I try not to get too high or low based on that, but I will say, y'all, like, hey, wait a minute. When was the last faith-based romantic comedy that's ever been made? When was the last one?

Speaker 1:
[60:26] I don't think of one.

Speaker 2:
[60:28] So then it's like, oh, well, you're making a movie, and these characters are doing this, or it's too much this or too much that. And I'm like, y'all, listen, perfection is, you're never gonna find a perfect movie. Never gonna happen, because what you like in your movie, I may hate in my movie. But what I want is for us, especially as believers, to look at the big picture here. You know, here's a movie that has Christian values, that's based upon one of the biggest Christian relationship books in the past 10 years, that is on Amazon Prime. One of the biggest streamers in the world. That is to be celebrated, to be acknowledged and say, wow, look at that. And when you look at the movie, it doesn't pull punches at all. It's very clear in its message. So, you know, I get worked up about these things, because obviously I'm passionate about my movies. I'm passionate about my stories, man. I don't make nothing I'm not passionate about, okay? And I'm also passionate about us as a culture and a community doing more to support each other. I think it's in fashion right now, you know, to just tear, oh, that person I perceive as a Christian, well, I'm a watch and they're not doing this and they're not doing that. And so instead of supporting, we tear down, oh, well, that person is not this and that. Say, well, wait a minute. You know how hard the real podcast needs to be interviewing you. Let's go into the deep with you, because all of the things that you've had to do and you're like, hey, I'm trying, I'm carrying the cross, okay? I'm trying to be in these platforms to elevate God, and then the people that I'm trying to help, then are the ones that vilify. So I understand that. And I want to get to a place in our culture where we get back to love, man. It's like, hey, I don't have to agree with every record you produce, with every record that you're on, but I still support you. You don't have to agree with every movie I make, every TV show I make. But you say, hey, that brother is doing something for the kingdom and the culture, and I'm going to back him. I'm going to get behind him because of what he's about, because of his mission. And I believe that if we as Christians got behind more of our people, we would see even greater success. We would see even greater impact. And that's one of the reasons why I'm so glad you asked that question, because it's something I don't get a chance to talk about much.

Speaker 1:
[62:50] Yeah, have you considered, have you ever considered, because here's the thing, I could have easily just said, I'm going to just go into mainstream. I'm not going to be a faith based rapper. I'm going to swim in all of these waters and I'm not going to engage the church. I'll be a Christian, but I'll be a Christian over here, engaging this world. And because there's so much judgment over here, I'm not going to engage you anymore. You could very easily just go produce more Karate Kids and still be effective in being used by the Lord in these worlds and in this space. You don't have to promote Karate Kid to Mount Zion Episcopal. Right? Why do you continue doing it? If you're still passionate about doing it, though some people may criticize you, though some people may say, I don't support.

Speaker 2:
[63:53] You don't have to do it, but you do do it.

Speaker 1:
[63:55] Why?

Speaker 2:
[64:00] At the end of my life, I have to be accountable to God. I've got to stand before him and take account for what he called me to do. So, regardless to the people, at the end of my life, I can stand before God and say, I did everything you wanted me to do. I didn't take the easy way. I didn't let the judgment or the criticism detour me from being obedient. I'm doing it because this is what God's called me to do. And I think about that. You go back to scripture and the disciples are asking Jesus, well, what's it going to be like at the end times? And one of the things that he tells them in Matthew 25 is, it's going to be like a master who gives his servant gifts, 110, 105, 11. And then he goes on a trip, doesn't tell him when he's coming back. And then he comes back and the one that had the five, he said, look what I did. The one, excuse me, the one that had the two, look what I did. And the one that had the one, well, I was afraid, so I didn't do anything with what you gave me. So God said, I'm going to take that one and give it to the one who has the most. And you are banished from my sight. For me, when I stand before him, I want to say this is what I did with your talents. This is what I did with what you gave me. And I didn't let a comment on TikTok or comments on Facebook, or comments on IG. I didn't let the criticism get me out of being obedient. That's why I do it. And I believe that when I get to heaven, there will be people there that say, DeVon, I saw that movie. If it wasn't for Miracles from Heaven, I wouldn't be here. I saw that film, I saw that TV show, and it got me back in a relationship with God. Or I didn't know what a relationship God could do. And I read one of your books, you know. So the impact that we have, that's not told here completely. It's not told by the likes, it's not told by the followers. What we're playing for is eternity. And we won't know how these sacrifices were so necessary until we get there.

Speaker 1:
[66:14] That's good.

Speaker 2:
[66:15] That's why. So that's why I've got to stay the course. I've got to keep my hand on the plow. I don't care if one person watches it or a million people watch it. If God told me to do it, I'm going to do it.

Speaker 1:
[66:26] That's good, man. Yeah, I will.

Speaker 2:
[66:32] I'm OK right now.

Speaker 1:
[66:33] Yeah, we're almost done. I would just share this with you. My mother-in-law, she's a very stoic person, right? She doesn't show a lot of emotion. She's been through a lot. And you don't really get to see her emote, right? She's just that's not her wiring.

Speaker 2:
[66:51] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[66:53] We don't see her cry. We don't see her, you know, she'll get sick. She'll just kind of stay in her realm. She won't tell you. I'm just that that generation of stoicism.

Speaker 2:
[67:05] Yeah, right.

Speaker 1:
[67:06] You don't see a lot of emotion. We went to see Breakthrough when it debuted. And, you know, I'm just like, yeah, I got a small role in this. Y'all come out, come check your boy out. You know what I'm saying? And I'm sitting next to her. And it was the first time in my life I'd ever seen her cry.

Speaker 2:
[67:25] Wow.

Speaker 1:
[67:26] And she sat there and she shed tears. And I didn't ask her because that's not her thing to articulate, but I just knew, okay, God's doing something in her heart watching this. And she said, I just loved it. I just loved the film. I just loved it. She didn't express why. But there's a lot of things that have happened in her life, you know, there's a lot of things she could relate to in that film that I knew, but I didn't bring it up to her. But it's those quiet moments of different people who are experiencing God speak. I mean, God has definitely spoken to me through films my whole life. So man, I am encouraged to hear you say, like, I just want to continue doing what I was called to do and to put something at the feet of the father and say, Lord, this is what you asked me to do. I want to hear well done.

Speaker 2:
[68:17] Exactly.

Speaker 1:
[68:17] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[68:17] 1,000%.

Speaker 1:
[68:20] Before we get out of here, I got to take you underwater. On The Deep End, we hit you with some underwater questions.

Speaker 2:
[68:25] OK.

Speaker 1:
[68:26] So I got to hit you with a couple of these, man. The people want to know.

Speaker 2:
[68:29] OK. OK.

Speaker 1:
[68:30] The people want to know. All right? Rocky.

Speaker 2:
[68:33] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[68:34] That's like one of your go-tos.

Speaker 2:
[68:35] Absolutely.

Speaker 1:
[68:36] It's all about overcoming the odds. What is an important moment from your own personal story where you felt the most like Rocky in overcoming?

Speaker 2:
[68:47] Oh, man. You know, I think it was it was that moment, you know, losing to Paramount Deal and, you know, having no production deal, you know, feeling like, man, my career is on the ropes, you know. And I had that prayer, Lord, like, you know, I don't even need to make a box office smash to God. I just want to know that this is what you still called me to. And that's when, you know, Flamin Hot got made. And then a little while after that, that's when I was able to close this deal with Netflix and, you know, to make faith-based content. And that was like Rocky, right? Like getting that Apollo Creed opportunity and to go to the distance, you know what I'm saying? And so in that first one, he doesn't end up being a champion, right? But he went the distance and he was able to, you know, have a foundation of respect. And then he becomes the champion in the second one. And then, you know, pretty much is the champion on and off pretty much for the entire series until we get to the Creed movies. And so for me, that was that moment, you know, getting up off the mat and going the distance. You know, I still feel like I haven't had my heavyweight championship win.

Speaker 1:
[69:51] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[69:51] I feel like I haven't, you know, like I'm in the ring. Yep. You know what I mean? And these movies are really great and the stuff I'm able to do is great. But I don't feel like I've had that, like, boom, that was when he became the champ, you know? So as it relates to Rocky, I still feel that Rocky, you know, I still hear it, I still feel that hunger, you know, and that desire, you know, to maybe one day, you know, have that moment where it's like, okay, all right, bet. That's when he won the championship.

Speaker 1:
[70:17] Okay. What's the best Rocky movie?

Speaker 2:
[70:21] Oh, the best Rocky movie is going to be, well, the best one, critically, is the first one, for sure. The movie that I love most commercially is the third one. And the fourth one is a close second, you know. Rocky, fighting Mr. T, I just love that. And Apollo Creed, going from being his rival to being his trainer, such a great turn. And then you lose Apollo Creed in Rocky IV, and he goes to fight Ivan Drago, and all the things in USA versus Russia, that was great. And then, and the Creed movie is my first, my favorite one is the first one, which is obviously still a part of the Rocky. Yes, yes.

Speaker 1:
[71:03] There's a lot of relationships, this next question, there's a lot of relationships in the Bible. Is there any other relationships that you would consider making a film about that are biblical?

Speaker 2:
[71:13] Yes. The next one that I'm doing. Okay.

Speaker 1:
[71:17] Okay. Exclusive.

Speaker 2:
[71:23] Yeah, man, I'm working on Samson Delilah.

Speaker 1:
[71:25] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[71:27] Yeah. I'm working on Samson Delilah. I can't say much more.

Speaker 1:
[71:31] That's all right.

Speaker 2:
[71:32] Yeah. So that one is, I've always loved the story. It's always been one of my favorite Bible stories. That scripture that says, his hair grew back. Like, oh man, his power comes back. That's good. And so I'm working on that.

Speaker 1:
[71:47] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[71:48] And it's going to be different than Ruth and Boaz, but still a love story and still a redemptive one, but just in a totally different way.

Speaker 1:
[71:56] Okay. The Movie Centers, it comes out as a producer, as a writer, as an actor, director. What does that mean for, I mean, it does have some Christian references, but what does that mean for your world or the world of black people in film that it did what it did?

Speaker 2:
[72:24] You know, it means everything. You know, Coog is just a visionary, you know, once in a generation, you know, type filmmaker and writer, and to have that vision and to be able to render it and for the movie to be so successful commercially and critically, it does a lot for the culture. It does a lot for, you know, the community in Hollywood. You know, it just, it continues to remind the powers that be, that our stories are worth telling, that, you know, our storytellers are worth, you know, giving platforms to, you know, investing resources in. So, you know, I see Sinners, you know, as a win for everybody. And I just, you know, I'm so grateful that he is doing what he's doing and doing it at the highest level. And that's the thing that is so exciting for me. It's like, yo, like, look at this movie, look at how successful it was. I mean, this is, I mean, and that's the thing, Hollywood, when you celebrate, you know, diversity, when you invest in our stories and our filmmakers, you can get, you know, not only just a return on your investment financially, but also a return on your investment culturally. And I think Sinners and, you know, Cooke's success with it and Michael B. Jordan's success with it, you know, congrats to them on their Oscar wins. It's just, man, it's a win for them and it's a win for us.

Speaker 1:
[73:39] That's great. Last question, the achievement addiction.

Speaker 2:
[73:44] Yeah, man.

Speaker 1:
[73:45] You've spoken about it, you've wrestled through it. You've worked on it in your own self. At the same time, you know, you're more productive than you've ever been.

Speaker 2:
[74:00] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[74:00] What's different now?

Speaker 2:
[74:02] Well, I'll tell you what's different now. The biggest difference is before I needed the achievements to feel secure. Now I feel secure and out of that, the achievements are coming.

Speaker 1:
[74:21] Put that in my channel now.

Speaker 2:
[74:25] That's the difference. That's the difference. It's like, I'm not chasing the achievement high, you know? I'm like, oh, I made that film. That resonated people like, okay, great, you know? But it's all coming from a place of being really secure with who I am and also free, meaning like one day I'm producing, you know? I'm about to leave to go to Vancouver because I'm acting in a new film. You know, me and Dennis Haysbert, who was in Breakthrough. Yeah, it's so amazing. Like I put him in three movies, Flamin Hot, Breakthrough and Relationship Goals. And now I'm playing, we're playing father and son in the same film, which is really cool, right? And then to go from there to like this past weekend, I was at Oakwood University, you know, HBCU in Huntsville, Alabama, and you know, preaching there and you know, doing a meet and greet after. I'm able to do these things because I'm secure and who God called me to be, but I'm also free. I'm free, like I'm not limited by your understanding of who I am, right? Because in one moment, I'm gonna be something you think I am, and then the next moment, I'm gonna be something totally different. And so to be able to be open and to be fluid in that way and to say, okay, well, today is the acting day, you know, and this afternoon is producing and tomorrow is gonna be on a podcast. Then I feel like that's when life and God gets really fun. Because I'm open for the adventure. So that's where the difference is. I don't need the achievements to feel secure. I feel secure, and from that, the achievements come.

Speaker 1:
[75:57] Anything that people need to know, what should they be looking forward to? What should they look out for? Where do they find you?

Speaker 2:
[76:03] Yeah, man, you know, I got a new film coming out with Taraji, man, this movie is a tearjerker. Okay, yes, it'll be on Netflix later this year, and you can find me, you know, on social media. I'm on at DeVon Franklin, Instagram, you know, Twitter, TikTok, well, X, you know, you know. Y'all know where to find me.

Speaker 1:
[76:23] Okay, y'all stay tuned. Listen, brother, I appreciate you. I love this version of you.

Speaker 2:
[76:28] Thank you, bro.

Speaker 1:
[76:28] It's inspiring, it's encouraging, man.

Speaker 2:
[76:30] Thank you, dog. I will, man, appreciate you. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1:
[76:33] Of course.