transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] Recently, we have been able to reap the benefits of the wealth of having or coming from really large families and things that our parents did decades ago to give us gifts that we get to enjoy today. However, we have had some fears when it comes to growing our own family size as to how will we be there for all these children? What's the Lord going to do with the gaps that we find ourselves inevitably having when it comes to each one of them? And so we want to encourage you when it comes to building your family and just some of the things that the Lord has shown us. Sometimes we wonder what's this going to look like, you know, decades down the road for our kids, and we're able to reap some of those benefits now. So we want to share what that's looked like for us in coming from families of 10 and 11 kids and what we're currently experiencing as a result of our parents walking by faith. It's given us a lot more faith moving forward in our own family, and we hope that it encourages you and yours as well.

Speaker 2:
[01:03] Yeah, I couldn't agree more, Katie, that the last, I'd say in particular, the last few weeks, right? I think each year you and I have enjoyed the benefits of being from large families as we've become adults, we're raising our own children and we're doing it side by side with our siblings and our in-laws that are facing the same challenges, the same problems, and we're able to use each other as resources and as an encouragement. Yeah, in particular over the last couple of weeks, as we've already shared, we hosted your entire family here at our home for Easter weekend. And then just this past weekend, we were able to host three of my married siblings and their children at our home. Two of those families stayed the night here, which was really fun with their, I guess, my sister.

Speaker 1:
[01:46] Eleven children?

Speaker 2:
[01:47] Yeah, my sister has six children, my other sister and her husband have five children. Yeah, so it was 11 children total that we had staying here along with my two brother-in-laws and my sisters. And it was a real treat to be able to do, do have those conversations that really only feel like, seems like those conversations only happen when you're staying in someone's home where you get to stay up late, you get to talk and really flesh some ideas out. And I don't know, just share some common, maybe, I guess, ideas or having common struggles, common inspirations that we're experiencing in real time. And I came away from the weekend just feeling truly wealthy. And I know that that's a term that I've used it before. And that's the problem with words, is you start using them early and then later on, you feel like it means more to you, but it's the same word. And so you're like, no, really, I'm relationally rich right now. I feel so wealthy in such a rewarding way when it comes to the relationships in my life. And yeah, I guess it's just really fun to look at. Now that I'm in my 30s, my siblings are in their 30s, we're raising our children. Some of the fears that we had, or sorry, we meaning you and me in regards to, well, what will it be like when our kids are older? Will they feel neglected? Will they feel like they got overlooked? And I think all those things happen in homes, right? That definitely happens. And yet, like children are a blessing, relationships are a blessing. Whether or not, well, I shouldn't say whether or not, in spite of the fact that all of our parents are going to have flaws and there's going to be gaps and there's going to be imperfections. We get to be adults here with our siblings and I just wouldn't trade it for anything else.

Speaker 1:
[03:30] Yeah, I think when we hear children are blessing, we can think maybe that just pertains to us. And I think sometimes, at least for me, I went through a period of time where after we got married, we were excited to start a family. We knew the value of family going into marriage. And that's been the case for all of our married siblings. We've all started families right away. And to me, that says something about what our parents did and that we all really wanted to start families. That said, there were these moments where I started deconstructing what I saw in other big families. I was looking at the weaknesses of our own family and in terms of family of origin for me, and started thinking, well, maybe these risks don't outweigh the rewards when it comes to kids. And maybe it can be selfish even to have a lifestyle of having a lot of children because of the children themselves. Do the children themselves pay that price? And I think that something that gets overlooked in that verse and that I am now experiencing is the children are a blessing to each other as well. And as a parent, you're inevitably, like Elisha said, not going to be perfect, and there are going to be gaps in your parenting. And that's not a cause to not try your very best and to learn and to grow or doing that. But we aren't going to know until maybe 20 years from now, some of the ways that maybe we failed our kids in different seasons, and we weren't there for them in the ways that they wanted us to be, or that we maybe even should have been. However, there is a gift that God builds in when we are in the position to give our children siblings. And that's not for every family. We see that, you know, there are so many couples struggling with infertility right now. They would love to give their children siblings. And that's not something that the Lord is allowing in your family. And so he has other blessings for your family. But I think that if you're maybe struggling with, should we, can we just be generous in this area with God? I think that there's an element of walking by faith where our kids are going to be there for each other. God builds that in and fill in the gaps that we can't be there for them as parents.

Speaker 2:
[05:52] Yeah, I know it's been really wild here, just the blessing and how much I've been able to lean on different siblings. More than ever before in my life, who would have thought that now as an adult, the people I'm going to that are first on my call list are people that I'm not going to church with, I'm not in a local Bible study with. Although it's great if you can talk to those people, but the people that I'm able to go to, the people I grew up with, the people that I was under the same roof with when we were going through just the most critical developmental years of our lives. So now when I experience new challenges, there is an element of depth that's established there. And of course, you want to be able to share the faith with them. And when I do, I share a Christian faith with each one of my siblings. And so there is that foundation. But there is the undeniable reality that blood, being bound together with blood is not nothing. That is a significant thing. And of course, we're grateful for our brothers and sisters in Christ. But being brothers and sisters in Christ doesn't negate the bond that you have with your blood siblings, your siblings that you share parents with, you share memories with, whose nieces and nephews you're raising. And they're raising your nieces and nephews. And there's a connectivity there that has been there since the beginning of time. That's been there the way God instituted the family to be, where there is a biological, like a hereditary connection to your ancestors and to your offspring, to your posterity, where it's like this synergy. There is a synergy there that's a part of God's order, his natural order. And so of course, you want that to be all rooted and submitted to Christianity, to Christ, to God's word. But you can't just automatically replace that. You can, again, the body of Christ is, we're brothers and sisters in Christ, and that is a powerful thing. And it is, I'm so grateful when people get saved out of a non-believing family, right? Or out of a Muslim family, and they're rejected by that family, their biological family, they're embraced, Lord willing, by the body of Christ, and they can go to the church and they can have a place there and a home there. That is absolutely 100% a blessing. And you saw that happening, obviously, to all the first-generation Christians, right? All the first Christians were people that were being rejected by their Jewish families, and their Jewish parents and siblings, they were ostracized from those people. And so that call to be brothers and sisters in Christ, that we see in Acts and in the New Testament, really has a lot more significance, I think, when you look at the context from which those people were being saved out of. If you're coming from a Christian home, if you're raising a Christian home, the expectation should be that your siblings are going to be in fellowship with each other on a very deep level, and that you'll be in fellowship with your children as they grow older. And just, again, being able to experience that has me so fired up to continue raising children, not just for my enjoyment. Like you said, Katie, I think that was a great distinction. We always knew the blessing that our children were to us. But we started wondering, is this of benefit to them, that we have as many as possible, or as many as the Lord would grant us to have? And I'm just becoming more and more convinced of the fact that that is, yes, a great blessing to our children. If we can give them siblings, if we can give them comrades in arms, so to speak, people that they can really fight the good fight of faith with, that they're raised with under the same roof, that they share blood with.

Speaker 1:
[09:39] Yeah, it's that double gift. Right, if they're able to share blood and share a common faith, and that's what we're aiming for with our children. I think when we first got married, we had three or four children maybe, and we started to all of a sudden think about family size and things like that very seriously. And it's interesting to see our conversations, how they have shifted with siblings that were also in that same period of time. Because maybe even a couple years ago, we would get together and we would swap stories with, yeah, this is my fear. This is where I feel like things didn't go perfectly, and I don't want that to happen to my kids. And maybe they would swap, you know, say where they feel like things weren't perfect in their upbringing. And kind of we would reinforce each other's tendencies to like, yeah, we want a good size family, what we want to do right by our kids. And then it's interesting, recently, those conversations have really shifted as we've maybe gone past that tipping point in family size of feeling like it is a little big and maybe a little outside of our control. But starting to experience, oh, there's more here at play than even logic can break down. And we get to experience that in an exponential way. I think of that, where our children are wealth to each other in a sense that, yes, they will be there for each other in ways that we won't be able to be there for them. They will take from us, and so we aren't going to be everything to each child. I think a lot of us, when we started out with newer families, started looking to the right and the left and realizing that our parents were still raising our younger siblings, and they were stretched thinner than other people's parents that we knew. And so maybe that created that initial, well, I'm not getting the same experience over here, and that was the first like pause. But then it's funny because as you lean into your spouse and you just start to put down your own roots and discover your own family culture, you realize, well, maybe that's what God intended. It's for us to lean into each other and form our own family instead of just remaining dependent on our family of origin. And it really builds that deep, strong foundation out of necessity for each other that I don't think we would have had otherwise. And now Elisha and I really do feel like we're set up for the next couple decades of being in over our heads raising a family and being able to be there for other people because we've been forced to lean into each other in that way. That maybe you wouldn't have to if you could still rely on mom and dad in the same way.

Speaker 2:
[12:25] 2026, this is the 10-year anniversary for Voetberg Music Academy. And so if you've been on the fence as to whether or not you should be learning guitar, fiddle, mandolin, piano, ukulele, or maybe having your child learn, now is a great time to join because we actually have some really fun challenges and some really fun 10-year anniversary surprises in store for this year. So if you join now, we're going to link a code below where you can get a little discount right now to join. You're able to get access to our community that's so active with a ton of, not just incredible musicians, but awesome Christian families. You get to have your weekly lesson, you get access to the video vault of lessons. So if you want like supplemental lessons or extra lessons, you get the student handbook, you get to earn badges, physical badges. We are talking about screen-free activities. We are more committed than ever in providing you more options for screen-free living. And so yes, Oprah Music Academy is online. And our number one goal with our online music lessons is to have you spend less time online, if that makes any sense. The way that makes sense is we want to give you skills and resources so that you can do them offline. And that's why we even created the reward system that is very physical. We want you to earn physical badges, not some digital, like sparkly thing that gets you these random, like, chemical reactions, you know.

Speaker 1:
[13:43] We've even steered away from doing gamified things on the app. And instead, you guys have a web-based version of your lessons. And also, the way you get your badges is by actually playing your instrument in real life. So going to an old folks home and playing, or putting together a little band and playing, or inviting people over and playing, and all these things that get you present in your physical life instead of staying on a computer.

Speaker 2:
[14:10] Playing an instrument is just one of many skills that we can give our children that give them an alternative to screens. And we see that all the time with our children. If it comes to that time of the day where things are kind of getting a little antsy and you're thinking, man, should we turn a movie on? Should we turn a show on? They get to go play their instruments. And all of a sudden, they're enthralled in their instrument and they're practicing. Giving your kid a practical skill like that, music's one of them. You can do that with puzzles or with knitting or with drawing. You can do it with so many things.

Speaker 1:
[14:37] I do that every night before dinner. Like, if you aren't home, hey, you guys, everyone go get on your fiddles.

Speaker 2:
[14:42] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[14:43] And everyone stays engaged while I make dinner and I just have to worry about the baby.

Speaker 2:
[14:47] Yeah, it's a huge gift. Anyways, check the link below. Find a course that's right for you. What level's right for you? What instruments right for you? Let us know if you have any questions. Anyways, we'll get back to the episode. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I don't know how that is perfectly prescribed. You know, when we look back and we can kind of deconstruct anecdotally the way we, you know, the leaving and cleaving looked a certain way for us and it looks different for each family and each couple. But it is critical. I think that being able to pull away as a married couple and establish your own household is something that we were able to do and we want our children to do while still remaining relationally connected, like you said, to your family of origin and maybe other seasons being able to come back and be even more integrated in a very practical way. And I think that that can happen down the road once you are established.

Speaker 1:
[15:35] Well, I think hopefully it is. I just feel like this last five years of really growing together as a couple has set us up to be givers going into this next generation and I think this next season. And I think I had more of a taking mindset and felt like I'm struggling here, you know, we need to be given to. But you think of that shift and our parents are aging, although they're blessed with good health, and I feel like if we don't have those strong family bonds in terms of setting up the next generation, who's going to be there for our aging parents? You know, they should be getting more and more of us instead of us needing more and more of them. And although both our parents are so generous with their time, we also, I guess I feel ready in this situation for the next season of wanting to just give to our parents. I do, I just want to give back for everything they've given us.

Speaker 2:
[16:33] I couldn't agree more. And it has been interesting over the last five years. And I'm sure we'll have moments going forward where we're feeling needy, you know, or we're in seasons of wanting support from people for whatever reasons, physical, you know, mental, spiritual. But it was a kind of the consistent pattern was wanting more, I think, from for different seasons. While we're remaining totally grateful and having a ton of admiration for our parents, if anything, wanting like more practical or, you know, emotional type, you know, just support. I mean, like we really feeling like takers, being like, we need help here. We've got young children. We're trying to figure this out. And of course, our parents were very supportive and we're grateful for that. I think with where we were, there's like, and maybe every couple goes through the season where it's like, no matter how much people give to you, they'll never feel like it's enough because you're just trying to figure it out.

Speaker 1:
[17:29] Yeah, I think when you have really little kids, I'm not sure that, you know, short of someone moving in with you and just helping you full time, it's not going to feel like you're just putting out all your energy possible.

Speaker 2:
[17:41] Yeah. And I don't even think that that would be doing the family a favor that a lot of times, you know, moving in and being that support. Go ahead.

Speaker 1:
[17:49] No, I agree. I think, yeah, I think that there's, again, I think that that is an experience that God sends you through to, it's a fire that you have to go through. And I think that there's those things that, you know, we're only into this 10 years, which is fun, next month, we'll have been married 10 years. And I just, I'm, you know, you could only look back at the next decade and I have no clue what the next decade holds for us, but I'm just seeing how there are so many seasons where, you know, like a baby, it's born with a separated stomach, like kind of like diastasis recti, and they crawl before they walk, so that stomach, they can build up those ab muscles. It's like, they have to go through that process or you have to go through the teething process to get your teeth. And I think of that in family life, there are so many stages where we want to call it quit mid-stage. But it got so intentional with his design, and I guess I've just been very encouraged to trust his process and things and to surrender to his process and things. Because I think now as adults and now with modern, so many different modern opportunities, you could call them. But I think they really inhibit our decision making because we can have so many options. We can now call it quits mid-stage and stop our development, stop our spiritual development, stop our family's development, stop so many things. And so I think being on the other side of those little, little kid years that are just so overwhelming. And now looking at some of my sisters that are in them and stuff, it's like, oh, wow, this is so good for you. This difficulty, it's so good for your marriage. Even though it's so hard for your marriage, just having to lean into each other and survive. And there's something really beautiful in that that sets you up for the next season.

Speaker 2:
[19:42] Right, and there's, like you said, there's no way to expedite it or shortcut it, I don't think.

Speaker 1:
[19:46] No.

Speaker 2:
[19:47] And we see this happen, right? Like where, whether people win the lottery, or they, you know, a long-lost relative dies, and they inherit just a huge sum of money, they actually don't reap the benefit that is there for those that work and toil to get that money, right? And I think of that with the payoff of having children now that are learners and growers, and they're playing instruments, and they're reading, and they're so helpful around the home, and they're a blessing to others, they're like communicative, you know, they've got their thoughts of their own. If some, if they had, like we just started at that point, there wouldn't be an appreciation for it, or we wouldn't be the people that we are, because we are a part of that journey with them. And I can only imagine that that continues to be the case as our children become adolescents, and they enter their teen years into high school. You don't want to like skip that, or you know, again, outsource it entirely, where you're not a part of the process of emotionally developing with them, and spiritually developing with them. And that's an area where I think too, as parents to adults is a fine line, right? Because I'm sure there's going to be times where you really want to come alleviate some of those physical challenges that are inevitable in young families, when they've got young children. When you know that sleep is a commodity, is a luxury, I should say, and that maybe resources are tight, and you want to be able to come, maybe come in and just take some of that pain away, where in reality, there needs to be a certain level of that experience with the couple that binds them together and actually enables them to go to the next season with strength and confidence.

Speaker 1:
[21:27] Yeah. I think something else that I'm thinking of in a way that children are wealth to each other, where maybe you don't see that first on the surface, is you guys know that I lost an uncle this year, we lost our uncle Dwight, and he left 10 children behind. And I think at first I thought, what a tragedy that there are 10 of them behind. You know, the amount of dependence that my aunt now has solo, and the amount of just needs that they are with one parent. But as I've seen their family over the last year, just from afar, lean into each other and grow. It has been so beautiful to see that this is a very acute case of he is not there for his kids, but he gave them each other. And they have such a strong family culture still, even though they're all experiencing this loss together. And to see the older brothers caring for their little sisters and being that father figure to them, and the boys being able to depend on each other and call each other. And he's physically not there, but if there had been two of them and they kind of go their separate ways, yes, it'd be a gift that they had each other too, but they're all there. And over the next 10, 20 years, they are going to be able to contact each other as a network and as a support and as knowing that nine other people have gone through the grief that they've gone through. Like, that is a gift. In every single situation, it is a gift, even for my aunt to be surrounded by so many children that are reminders of who her husband was and what they did together. It's just really beautiful, even though it's very hard and very painful. And I think of that, we can always be here. I don't know when the Lord is going to take us or even, you know, best case scenario, we will have children with young families when we go to be with the Lord, even if we live to a really ripe old age. And I even see this with my own parents and your parents. Their siblings are the ones who they have when their parents are gone. Yep. And I just think that they're the ones who, you know, they can relate with and talk about memories with, and that's who they were given.

Speaker 2:
[23:48] Right.

Speaker 1:
[23:48] We aren't going to always be there for our kids now, or when we're, when we're eventually gone. They have a lot of life without us.

Speaker 2:
[23:56] Yeah, exactly. One way or another. You know, there's, there's going to be, unless the Lord, you know, tragically takes your child. But again, that's something that we've known people where they have lost young children or siblings. You know, siblings have lost, they've lost their sibling, you know, at a young age. And again, they're grateful for the siblings that they do have, that they can mourn that together with. They can be each other's support system. And something else that I think would be my fear is I would look at a number of children in a family and maybe it was really, maybe, you know, behind the scenes, it was a very dysfunctional marriage. And they, maybe there was even abuse. Maybe there was, who knows, right? Something very terrible. And you think, well, man, it would have been better if they didn't have any children at all or they just had one or two, because now there's seven or eight or whatever, you know, whatever number of kids that had to go through that. Now they're dealing with their own dysfunction and having to combat this as adults. But then that's not the end of the story. It's crazy how like one of those children, one either being redeemed and coming to the Lord, or maybe they were saved all along and they will have this return. They are able to speak into those siblings life in a way that nobody else can. And I think we take snapshots of throughout life all the time. And when we say, well, man, this isn't worth it. We can say that for the young mom that chose kids over a career. And we're like, man, I don't know if this was worth it for her. Versus looking at the end of the game, looking at her as a grandmother with children and grandchildren that rise up and call her blessed and saying, wow, who made the right call now? I think it's the same thing even in some of those seemingly hopeless situations or those situations that were objectively dysfunctional during the childhood, they grow up to be adults and there is a strength that comes from having each other and they can then encourage each other and their families. And so I just have become a believer in that it is a gift to your children to give them siblings. And not to say that that in and of itself covers all of your flaws that you don't have to worry about anything else. They just go for quantity. Don't work, don't worry about quality. No, there are huge mistakes that we can make as parents in neglecting our children or not leading them astray and not bringing them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord that we will have painful fruit from for years to come. And so that should be a sobering thought where you're thinking, man, no, I want to do this right because there's no greater joy to know it's your children walking truth. I would say that there's probably no greater pain than to see a child suffering, right? And to be struggling and same probably goes for a sibling. You know, we like, man, they're struggling in their faith or they they walked away from the faith or what you know, they're just struggling in some other way. It can be a very painful thing. And yet in that there is such opportunity for connectivity and ministry and growth.

Speaker 1:
[26:53] Yeah, I think I think that when I kind of theologically transitioned to a stewardship mindset, which I love, and I'm so grateful that the Lord kind of shifted the thoughts, my thoughts to instead of like, well, the world's just going to hell and then in a handbasket. So who cares? We are here as his stewards and so steward accordingly, be wise, right? Be fruitful and multiply. Hearing that verse, you know, about, don't just go for quantity, really be fruitful in that. And I think that that has gotten, I guess, given license for not letting go in terms of believing that God can do more abundantly than what we can ask or think. You know, his ways are higher than our ways. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. That's what the scripture tells us. And I think when we reduce our childbearing to just logic, we miss out on the Lord pushing us past our comfort zones and what He can give us. And I know that we've experienced that. And I think I used to look around and see maybe women whose health was failing because of all the children that they had, thinking, you would be such a better mother if you just stopped having your children and could be present for the kids you do have. Instead of realizing that the Lord is sanctifying those children in a unique way, He's sanctifying that mother in a unique way. There is beauty and there is purpose in suffering and in pain. Just because the Lord desires to give good gifts to our children, and so often He does, it's not that suffering can't be a gift from Him as well. And I forget the scripture. I was reading through the Bible, though, and the Lord gifts His children with suffering as well. It teaches us something that enjoyment cannot, and His pleasures cannot. And I think of that, Psalm 128, 3 and 4 say, your wife shall be like a fruitful vine by the sides of your house, your children like all of plants round about your table. Thus shall the man be blessed that feareth the Lord. And He's being very specific in, this is how you're going to be blessed. You know, some men are going to be blessed with riches. There's other chapters where the Lord says, if you're wise, you're going to be blessed with this, or if you're diligent, you'll be blessed with this. But a man that fears the Lord is going to be blessed with a fruitful home. And I think of that word fear, because growing up in the families that we grew up in, I have no problem with fearing because I did fear my parents, and I did love them, and I knew that they loved me as well. So I guess fearing God is not something that scares me. It is, I see that as a reverence, where reverence is due, and not a bad thing, not fearing like an angry, evil person, but fearing someone in a way where they can discipline you and they can chastise you. And I think of that, you know, sometimes having children out of the fear of the Lord, and just a fear for not embracing his design, can still be a gift and a blessing, or can be the greatest gift and blessing that we ever experience.

Speaker 2:
[30:20] No doubt. Is it Psalm 16 that, you know, I think ends with, in the presence of the Lord, there's fullness of joy at his right hand, our pleasures forevermore. And you think, okay, well, if there's a way to experience more of, like, what does that compare to? It's compared to everything, right? And so if there is suffering, but it produces a closer, more intimate walk with the Lord, then you can say, man, you counted all joy when you encountered those various trials, right? James says, my brother, you counted all joy when you encounter various trials, knowing that the trying of your faith produces patience, and the patience have its perfect work in you. I forget how the rest goes, producing, do you know that one?

Speaker 1:
[30:53] Perfect and entire wanting nothing.

Speaker 2:
[30:56] And you're thinking, okay, well, there's, so maybe you are genuinely suffering in this thing in pursuit of blessings with children, and maybe it's marriage, maybe, but realizing that, man, there are things worth suffering for, and there are things that really suffering for might seem kind of silly. And I remember hearing the word passion. I don't know if this is true or not, but actually it was like, because it was like at a business conference, and I, I remember it's like, too far down to track it right now. I forget, what's that other one where I would like hear coaches and like mentors say this, and I was like, oh, that's what that means. It's like, well, people would always make the joke, this isn't the one I'm thinking of, but it's like, you know, politics means poly, many and ticks, ticks. So there are many ticks. That's what politicians are. And I'm like, oh, okay. I didn't know that's what it meant. Crazy. You know? So it's that whole like, when something sounds like something else, you can like make people think that that's what it means. So I don't know.

Speaker 1:
[31:52] The Latin root is.

Speaker 2:
[31:54] So I don't even know if this is like, has any reference to the word passion, but I was told.

Speaker 1:
[31:58] I like how they take poly, which is like much or many, but then ticks is just like a literal translation.

Speaker 2:
[32:06] Exactly. So politics is many ticks. It's like, oh, okay. I just grew up believing that because people would say that. But.

Speaker 1:
[32:16] I never heard that before.

Speaker 2:
[32:18] But so anyways, I remember hearing passion described as they were breaking down the root word, but it's like the passion of Christ. And basically it's like a willingness to suffer, like something that you're so passionate about that there's like, and there's suffering probably required, but you're willing to suffer for it because of how passionate you are about it. And I think of that with life, like in this life, you will have troubles, and we will have trials. And there are some things that are worth suffering for, and children are one of those things. Marriage is one of those things. Our faith obviously is one of those things. And so trials produce patience. We want to experience more of the fullness of God's blessing, pursue his blessings in children. And if it does produce trials, that's not the goal of it, right? The goal of children isn't suffering, or its goal of marriage isn't suffering. But in pursuing a good thing, if it does produce suffering, then I think that we can rest assured that if we are faithful in that suffering, it'll strengthen our faith. It'll bring us closer to the Lord. We'll be able to walk more and step with him. And we know that that is the greatest thing that we can experience here on this earth, is walking closer with the Lord, being more, you know, experiencing that fullness of joy that comes by being in his presence.

Speaker 1:
[33:28] Yeah, it's beautiful.

Speaker 2:
[33:29] I don't have anything else to say. That was it.

Speaker 1:
[33:31] I feel like that was good.

Speaker 2:
[33:34] Also, the politics was good too. I was trying to think of what coaches would say where it's fearless or it's fearing less. It's not that one, but they would make an acronym out of something and be like, oh, that's what it means. But it just kind of sounded like it should mean that, you know?

Speaker 1:
[33:51] Yeah. Well, I like that willingness to suffer. Psalm 127.3.5 says the fruit of the womb is God's reward. As arrows are in the hands of a mighty man, so are children of the youth. Our kids love this one. I think I've told you guys this story on the podcast before, but I remember we had a family over for dinner. They had four children and they were leaving. And we noticed that their license plate said quiver full. And so we are visiting with them about that. And they're like, yeah, like historically someone had, this sounds kind of like your passion thing, you know, people would carry four arrows or something in their quiver. And they left the house. And I just remember my dad saying, quiver full, I'd beat that guy in a war any day. He's like, I'd rather have all 10 of you guys back there. And he was just joking, but he was so proud of us. And he really did view, even though I think it's easier for us to say right now, because I don't feel like children are putting us in a position of acute financial pain, or I feel like the Lord has blessed me so far with health. I don't feel like children are putting us in an acute health scenario where we're forced to deal with that. There's just the average wear and tear of bringing kids into this world and stuff like that. But both our parents did go through some of those things more acutely. And maybe in a severe enough way where people's advice would have seemed very reasonable to say, this is a bad idea. You're harming your kids by continuing on down this road. And yet, they continued in faith and just were stashing up those arrows. You know, and I think of that, like their children are a source of their strength and defense. It's not just a blessing, it's not just a reward. Like it's an actual strength to have these children. And I feel that way when I go, you know, even I'll go into Costco, or maybe I've dropped Lucy off at gymnastics and I'm going to pick up the boys. And I'm just surrounded by these five boys and their little like jujitsu gi's and cowboy outfits. And we go in, I just am like, I am so protected, you know, I'm just picturing over the next decade, all these boys growing up into men. And people will say, oh, you have your hands full. And I'm just like, yes, I am so wealthy. Like, can you picture any other woman that's surrounded by these five boys that are going to be men, that are going to like, they all opened the door for me and helped me load groceries and are just, you know, Elisha's really trained them to be little gentlemen now. Like I am so blessed. Or I picture my mom who had a ton of daughters instead of sons. And it's like just the amount of helping hands that she had in her home, even though, yeah, it came with a lot. Not negating like the emotions or fights over clothes or anything. But it is just the source of wealth and gift.

Speaker 2:
[36:54] It is. And I think that that's kind of my heart right now, even in wanting to talk about it here on the podcast. It's not to, you know, I don't want to twist anybody's arm into having more kids, right? Or like guilt anybody into why they stopped when they stopped or anything like that. It really is. I've been experiencing the true wealth that my parents, I guess, established for me in family or familial relationships. And it was something that I don't know if I always realize. I think there was times where I questioned it, even though I loved all my siblings, I didn't really see like, well, what good did it do for me? You know, when I was thinking selfishly, it's like, yeah, it's like, well, what good was it for me? And now is just having my own children being an adult. Like, wow, this is I am wealthier than any of my friends that have less siblings, basically. Right. Like there's a wealth in the family relationships. And so it's really just, I guess, wanting to propagate the blessing, the children, that the idea that you are giving yourself wealth, yes, for sure. But then you're also giving your children wealth in relationships. Again, there can be pain there as well. Right. There can be more hardship. And I think that that was always kind of our fear was like, sure, if you have 10 children, they're all blessing, that's 10x the blessing. But if they're all train wrecks and hardships and heartaches, it's just 10x the hardship. And I don't think that's always the way God's math works, where it's like, man, it's hard or it's a win or it's a loss. And so it's a 10x win or it's a 10x loss. First off, life goes through seasons and stages. But I do think that even in those things that appear to be hardship, there are blessings in there that probably you couldn't see from just first glance, that those blessings get to experience with one another and a bond they have with one another. And in my ebb and flow, I remember the thing that I just thought was true for the longest time that I heard from a young life guy or a youth pastor or something. And it's like fear. You know what fear is? It means false evidence appearing real, like this acronym, false evidence appearing real. I was like nine or 10 or whatever. I was like, I never knew that. That's what fear, that's what that word means, is false evidence appearing real. You know, so for like years, just reading that and being like, I mean, I know the definition of fear.

Speaker 1:
[39:10] That's so funny because like that's totally inaccurate.

Speaker 2:
[39:13] I know.

Speaker 1:
[39:14] It's like, it was some, like, like sometimes it is like totally real, real evidence.

Speaker 2:
[39:20] Right.

Speaker 1:
[39:20] And real terror. And we're called to walk through it anyways.

Speaker 2:
[39:22] Yeah. Yeah. False evidence appearing real. It's like, oh, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[39:29] I mean, I could see that maybe like with a Pilgrim's Progress scenario where there's like the two, giant dogs that he has to walk through, but they're lions or whatever they are, but they're chained. So like that would be an element of fear where it's like, it kind of looks like false evidence. Like these dogs can get you, but they can't. I do think there is that kind of protection over us as we go through things. In a certain sense, I'm just going to talk myself into it. Where it's like God always has us in the palm of his hand. So to some extent, everything that we fear that's of this world can only get us to the extent that is good for us, in the extent that God allows for his glory. So that is really freeing. And I guess I've just been freed from a couple of things. One, completely from judging other people's families and thinking it would be healthier if. Because one, dysfunction can really happen in any size family. Overlooking can happen in any size family. I think it's something to be on guard against in every family. And I think regardless of how many children you have, it's going to take everything you've got. And so there's that. Like if you aren't all in, regardless of the number of children you have, they will feel that.

Speaker 2:
[40:46] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[40:47] So they have to know you're all in. I think there is so much grace when there's humility and you're able to apologize to children and able to acknowledge wrong. And then, like Elisha said, you just straight up cannot see the inner workings of what God is doing in someone's family. I know our family called dysfunctional many times by people who now laud my parents praises for what they went through. And now that all of us turned out somewhat normal. And now they want their exceptional. Yeah, you guys turned out around us. You know what I'm saying? Like, oh, well, you guys raised your kids well, so we want our kids around you. And they were the ones who were telling my family, there's not enough love to go around. Your kids are gonna, you know, just kind of projecting all these things.

Speaker 2:
[41:32] Sure, threatening to call CPS.

Speaker 1:
[41:34] Yes, we had that. Dear family members, threatening to call CPS. So it's like, you can't, I just, it's like God is doing his work in different people's homes. And if they're walking by faith and they're on their 15th child, and you know, you're like against all doctors orders and, you know, she's bedridden and has all these kids, and you're like, how are you taking care of them? It's like, God is going to walk through that person, walk through whatever with that person. If that's what they're feeling called to, then he's going to, he's going to, one, they're an answer to him, and two, they are. And that's so not our place or my place to interject man's wisdom. I think a lot of man's wisdom gets interjected in this area in maybe more than any other walk of Christian life and is seen as a responsible and thoughtful and caring thing to do.

Speaker 2:
[42:35] Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I mean, you said something that really probably should have been established at the beginning, and that is, you know, walking by faith with all of your, with your marriage, with all of your children. And we, on the outside, we just never know where marriages are at and where they're out in their faith journey, where they're on their faith walk. You can speculate and you can pray. And so I just think that that would be that would, I want that to be my heart. And at the core of our marriage is that we're living faithfully unto the Lord, and that there is a true element of trusting him in all, in just our parenting, in our child rearing, with the number of children that we think we can handle or not handle, is that motivated by faith or by false evidence appearing real? No, I mean, seriously, what's at the core here? You know, is it, are we walking by faith and in obedience? Or is there, you know, man's wisdom or fear creeping in that really is not actually from the Lord? And I think that that the both that can, that's going to look different for each family.

Speaker 1:
[43:39] It is. And I also think that just the theology of suffering in general has really been freeing to just, to not always view it. It's not always discipline. It's not always sometimes just like embrace it. It's what God has. And it's something that is limited to our time here on earth, which is beautiful. One day we're going to be free from that. But even if our children have to walk through suffering, that doesn't mean that that's not going to be, that God doesn't have a plan for that in their lives. And I know that my heart is for my children to always be happy, to always have what they need, to always be able to provide everything for them that I can. And while we're trying to do that, God's plans are getting higher, and He knows what they need to walk through.

Speaker 2:
[44:24] I agree. And there are things that we can look at, maybe that were sinful decisions that we made or sinful acts that we committed. And we say, I regret that that was wrong. I shouldn't have done that. But when we are living as Christians and we're making decisions with as much information as we are given, there is an element of like, well, if it seems like a bad decision, you actually really don't know. You're like, how is this gonna pan out? I know we've referenced this before, but a while back, there was that Tom Brady documentary, I think it was called Man in the Arena. It was like a few part series on ESPN. And we watched that. And there was this thing that he talked about where it's like a farmer lost his horse or something, and somebody was like, oh, what a tragedy. And he was like, maybe. And then because then later on, somebody found the horse and they fixed it. It was like a veterinarian, it came back healthier. And he's like, well, see, maybe you don't know what's gonna happen when something bad happens to you. You actually don't know that it's bad. It's like in the moment.

Speaker 1:
[45:19] And when something good happens to you, you don't actually know if it's good.

Speaker 2:
[45:22] Yeah, you're like, maybe, maybe, maybe. I think that's what he said. Because with that one story, he kept going, maybe this, maybe that, maybe this. Because all these things have happened before. And so when you look at a family and say, this is terrible for their marriage, it's terrible for the other children, it's terrible for her health, for his health, for their financial well-being, you got to maybe like you, like in this moment, is that what we're basing this off of? Because they...

Speaker 1:
[45:48] Or in eternity.

Speaker 2:
[45:49] Yeah, eternity or even later on in this life. Yeah, eternity being the primary thing, for sure, that should motivate us. But even in this temporary life, there are so many valleys in the ground peaks and valleys, and it looks like that's the only thing. But then you say, well, maybe, maybe it's not worth it for that guy to stay in that marriage. You're like, well, probably is. Like he stays in it, it's like, oh, the high point or her to stay in that marriage. You're thinking, man, it's not worth it. And you're like, well, maybe. And then I think especially when you're walking in faith, then you're saying, hey, let's wait and see.

Speaker 1:
[46:21] Yeah, we talk about that sometimes with your grandparents because they both stayed together and did not have easy marriages, either of them. And by today's standards, both would have been encouraged probably to just, hey, get divorced, worry about your own happiness here. This isn't working out. But it was so beautiful to see how one later in life, how beautiful their marriage was, how much growth happened, how they were there for each other in their old age, and how we could experience them sticking through that tough decade or tough couple decades or whatever the case may be, and getting to that other side, and for us to have their lineage of them staying married. It's beautiful. And our lives are so short. I think that's the other thing that I realize at the ripe age of 31 is I do not have much time here on Earth. And regardless of how acute pain is for a moment, it is over quickly, our time here. And so just kind of buckle up and live for the Lord and whatever he has for you, because our happiness is, the fullness of our happiness is in paradise.

Speaker 2:
[47:34] It is, we're going to realize it there.

Speaker 1:
[47:35] And we're going to be there very quickly. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[47:38] And that is something that I don't have like a systematic theology to break this down, but like my dad always said this. And I don't think he tried to back it up biblically, but he's like, there are greater rewards for some people in heaven than there are for other people. And it's like, man, most Christians have believed that throughout history. And I'm sure there's different camps that would push back or they'd look at different things, you know, that just in the Bible to say that this, you know, contradicts that. But there really are heavenly rewards that we get to look forward to. And I'm not sure how they are divvied out. I know it's all undeserved grace, right? It's all a gift. Just being able to be God's children is a gift that we don't deserve. And so you could say, well, all the gifts from him are undeserved regardless of that, what frequency you receive them. But there is-

Speaker 1:
[48:21] More is still more.

Speaker 2:
[48:22] Yeah, I think more is more. And there are people that really store up treasure in heaven. And it might even be via suffering here, right? It might be through hardships here or pain here.

Speaker 1:
[48:32] That's the thing with the whole maybe thing. It's like potentially the person that lives the most. And I mean, I'm saying suffering, bringing it up, because I think children are like so much joy. But again, I realize we're in an ideal situation to be bringing children into this world. I think it can cause acute pain and stress under different conditions. We're saying even under those conditions, it can be a real blessing. But it's like maybe the person that lives out their entire life here in suffering, it's just they're the ones that have the last laugh on the other side.

Speaker 2:
[49:07] Sure, they get to have it and they have the rewards. I think there's a totally something there, where especially when you want validation and vindication here on earth, we're all tempted at times for people to really understand, well, it was hard for me during this time or this happened to me, and I want people to feel that or to know that so that I can feel that, so that I can feel validated or understood or seen. For those people that faithfully endure hardship trials in marriage, in child rearing, in their local community and whatever it may be, from family life, slander, and they're able to walk without tearing those people down, without gossip, without letting you know actually this is really how it was, and they walked just faithfully as to the Lord. Man, kudos to them for one, and then two, there's a reward, I think for them in living out their life that way.

Speaker 1:
[50:09] I do think scripture is clear on that.

Speaker 2:
[50:11] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[50:14] I don't think that's a guess. You know, it's like the martyrs are definitely not getting the same reward.

Speaker 2:
[50:20] Yeah, when it's like people, the Pharisees that are fasting and like making their faces look all ugly and stuff and stay on the street corner. She's like, you have your reward. And I think that that is oftentimes what we opt for here in this life is it's like, people feel bad for me now because I, you know, married all my parents' dirty laundry or I actually told them the truth about my marriage, how it really is or how hard whatever my pregnancies are. And it's like, okay, well, you have your reward there. Like you got the reward, which was people's sympathy or whatever, you know, here on this earth. And so anyways, I do want to have the mindset of storing up treasures in heaven.

Speaker 1:
[50:55] Yeah, anyway, so this is supposed to be an encouraging episode. I don't know where we got off on that. You may have the reward. Just basically, we want to encourage you. If it feels like maybe, or maybe people are saying, hey, you're taking the wrong path right now, or like you're making things harder than it needs to be, or, you know, don't let it be so difficult. I think we get a lot of people looking into our lives and like, wow, you guys come from such great backgrounds and I don't have that, right? What I want to encourage you in is to be that for your family. Be that for the next generation. Be my parents, you know, be Elisha's parents. And I will tell you that both of them endured a lot in order to give us what we have today. And we just feel like we are getting wealthier and wealthier and wealthier because the investment that they put in, and we were almost in a season of life of not wanting to give our children the same thing. Maybe like, oh, all these relationships will just be overwhelming. They'll just be hard to manage. They'll just, you know, looking at all the fear of the multiplication. Instead of being like, what a gift from God. Let's lean into it. We want to take the mantle of what our parents have given to us and recreate that for our own children instead of kind of stopping maybe what God has for our family, even if it gets hard or it gets difficult. We just want to encourage you in walking in faith in that and know that people are going to question it, know that people are going to not understand you. And just being on the same page with your spouse and walking by faith.

Speaker 2:
[52:35] Talk to you next time, folks. Bye bye.

Speaker 1:
[52:37] Bye.