transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] So, what if the most important shift in your life, it isn't about building something new, but about finally letting go of everything that you've been holding? My guest today, Elena Brower, spent more than two decades as one of the most recognized yoga and meditation teachers in the world. We're talking stages of thousands, growing platform, books translated into seven languages, the whole forward-facing life that our culture tells us means that we've quote, made it. And then she started moving in the other direction. She got quieter. She trained as a chaplain. She began sitting with people in hospice, not teaching, not leading, just being present, holding nothing but their hand. Her new book is called Hold Nothing, and it's rooted in an ancient suture that became a kind of a compass for her. Welcome nothing, refuse nothing, reflect everything, hold nothing. In this conversation, we go deep into what it actually looks like to release the identity you built, not because it failed, but because it's no longer who you are. We talk about the hidden cost of living a double life while teaching wholeness, and what it took to close that gap. We explore what changes in your closest relationships when you stop holding your partner to who they were, and just let them become who they need to become. And we sit with what Elena has learned from being present, really at the end of people's lives, and why she now believes that learning to die might well be the clearest path to living well. This is one quiet and powerful conversation. It landed in a way that I didn't expect. So excited to share it with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. Just sort of thinking about where I wanted to go with our conversation, I was doing a little bit of prep, and I stumbled upon a conversation that you had, a 13-minute conversation that you had in 2019 with your then 12-year-old son, where you asked him, tell mommy how your parents separating was for you. Tell me the good, tell me the bad. And you had the most beautiful, open, kind-hearted conversation. And what really touched me was that you were listening to him as if he was your teacher. And I was just curious about what that was like for you, that whole experience.

Speaker 2:
[02:43] I remember that conversation really well. He's now 19. And such a good human. Oh, I'm so proud of him and his choices and how he handled his life. A lot of what happened, I think, in these ensuing years, followed from, as you observed, being heard and really respected. And even when he didn't, even when he did something that didn't really merit our respect or my respect, I gave it to him anyway. And that's a teaching from the Tao. It's something that I've elaborated on in my one course on parenting, respect in the face of disrespect. And I think he's flourished because of that, not without his trials and tribulations, of course, but he knows who he is because he got respect. He was heard. I'm grateful that you picked up on that.

Speaker 1:
[03:46] There was a moment in that conversation where you were sharing with him that for, I guess, the better part of a year on almost a nightly basis, you would tell him the story of a little girl named Elena and kind of like pace it up to the present.

Speaker 2:
[04:04] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[04:05] Why did that matter?

Speaker 2:
[04:07] So, he was two and a half when we got divorced, Anthony and I, and we're still dearest of friends. And he, Anthony, Jonah's dad, and my current partner of the last 12 years, James, are very close now. They're like the brothers they never got in this lifetime.

Speaker 1:
[04:25] It's beautiful.

Speaker 2:
[04:26] It's so cool. But I think the act of giving him the story of this girl named Elena, as though it were, it's not really my thing to do it in a distant person, you know what I mean? But I started always right around his age. She went to nursery school at St. Mark's, and then she went to kindergarten, and then she fell in love with art, and all the different things that happened to me, and he sort of was able to track what it might be like to have me be in his shoes. And then all the way to the yoga class, where I met his dad, and all the way to the point where I totally went against the rules and went out on a date with a student who was visiting from another town, but still, I did it. And sure enough, within a couple months, we eloped. We had to create him. He was made from so much love. Those were the messages he got in that story. And each time, I would change it a little bit. So if you're listening and you're, you know, getting a divorce, you're going through a hard story, maybe it's worth it to design a time at bedtime with your young child, where you tell a story of your own experience of what that child might be going through. It turned out really beautifully. One day, I said, Okay, would you like to hear the story of Elena? It was after about a year, a year and a half. And he said, No, I'm good. That was it. It was so sweet.

Speaker 1:
[06:00] It's like we can close the book.

Speaker 2:
[06:01] Yeah, yeah, we're good.

Speaker 1:
[06:03] Yeah. And it was really beautiful also, because oftentimes, I feel like we never know our parents as human beings, unless and until it's much later in life, and we actually invest in sort of exploring. Who are you beyond just my caretaker, my person, the voice on the other end of the phone when I'm in trouble? Who are you as a human being? What's your life? And it's so unusual that we have those conversations. And oftentimes, if and when we do have them, it's when the parents mortality feels like it's really, really close and we just kind of want to know more.

Speaker 2:
[06:46] So true.

Speaker 1:
[06:46] And imagine if you could like know that earlier and relate on a completely different level decades earlier.

Speaker 2:
[06:52] Yeah, it would have been a real gift. I've been asking my dad now, my mom passed about 10 years ago, but I've been asking my dad lots of questions and I'm getting stories that I don't actually really want to know. But I'm getting some really beautiful ones and some details that I wouldn't have known. And back to my mom, I wish I could talk to her right now. And sometimes I feel like I can, but I wish she were still around, so I could ask her a few questions. Agreed.

Speaker 1:
[07:22] That brings me to another curiosity. You have fairly recently studied for chaplaincy and been spending, as part of that training, and then post a meaningful amount of time in hospice, in penitentiaries. And I'm curious, when you step into that position, especially in hospice, they're kind of technically to be of service to others. How is that experience of service to you at the same time?

Speaker 2:
[08:00] What a great question. Thank you. Selfishly, I leave that shift every time. I'm so psyched to be alive, so thankful for my health and my family. I think the most satisfying aspect, though, is definitely watching someone who's inactive dying or someone who's, right now, I'm with a woman who's not quite, you know, actively dying yet, but she's got a disease that's very degenerative, and is acting quickly. Just watching them feel loved and feel seen is so satisfying. And knowing that that's possible to offer that to somebody wholeheartedly, it's just one of those moments in life that you can't really put a label on. It's like watching incense curl up in the zendo, you know, or watching your kids smile and look at you in a certain way that you really are seeing each other. It's not quantifiable, and it's one of the most satisfying parts of the work. Just seeing someone feel a little more comfortable than they were a moment before because you are sitting there, because you are asking the right question, or just being quiet, sitting, holding their hand.

Speaker 1:
[09:33] Do you feel like that travels out of that experience with you?

Speaker 2:
[09:37] Totally.

Speaker 1:
[09:38] How does it show up?

Speaker 2:
[09:41] I feel so different than I... I was in New York for the book launch, which was a couple months ago, and I was walking on the streets. I wrote about this. I was walking on the streets, same boots from 2019, same coat from 2019 when I left or 2020, but totally different brain, totally different being, walking in that outfit on those same streets. And the best way I can explain it is that there's a level of patience and care that I did not have before.

Speaker 1:
[10:15] It's interesting to hear you say that in two levels. One just as a human being being affected by something deep, and then carrying that change of state out into the world with you. It's interesting to me on a different level too, which is that you're not somebody who's new to practice. You're somebody who has been in the yoga world, in the meditation world, in the world of spiritual practice for decades. You and I came up in that world around the same time in New York, right around 2000.

Speaker 2:
[10:50] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[10:51] I left it not too long after, and you just stayed and grew and grew and grew, but this is... So experiences like this are not new to you?

Speaker 2:
[11:01] Well, they are and they aren't.

Speaker 1:
[11:03] This is...

Speaker 2:
[11:06] I think those first couple of decades, really, were kind of a training ground for this bit. Um, you know, from, let's say, 30 to 50, that was. Um, we were part... You and I were part of shaping that space in a way. It became something very amorphous and much bigger than us, obviously. And not necessarily for good, but let's leave off the value judgments for now. Our work, our personal work, has always been, you know, pretty high integrity, very intentional. And I'll let that live there. What's come now as a result of those 20 years is just a willingness to shut up and to not do anything and to be very still. That was not the plan. Initially, the plan was grow, grow, grow. Impact as many people as you can with your work, you know. So much ego, really. I didn't realize it until now in hindsight. This work is really about impacting as few people as possible, as quietly as possible, as focused as possible, and then leave no trace of myself. I wasn't even there. It's really the opposite of what it was. You know, teaching to 10,000 people, 4,000 people, right in the center of the thing, you know, with the hair and the beauty and the clothes and all of the things. And it was so lovely. It was lovely to be a voice there. And it's really important to me now that that's faded and that I can do the work that I'm doing without being the center of attention, without really needing anything from it.

Speaker 1:
[13:08] That resonates so deeply with me as well. You and I have been wired that way, I think. But it's taken a couple of decades for us to come to it.

Speaker 2:
[13:15] That's right.

Speaker 1:
[13:17] As I think a lot of people are. And I feel like so much of the ideal of how you could succeed in life is, it's the forward-facing ideal, it's the larger-than-life ideal, it's the louder-than-everyone-else ideal. It's the, and now especially, the world of, the online world and social media, it's like that is, it's make or break. It's, yeah. And it's tethered to anything resembling happiness, meaning contentment is tentative if not completely non-existent. And yet so much, we're still driven to live that way.

Speaker 2:
[13:58] You know, I, I look at social media as it is right now. I don't have disdain for it. I really still view it as an art project for me. I enjoy it. So I keep going. But the Instagram is really, do you remember when we were little, and at the end of the school year, we would have these sort of rectangular autograph books. And we would give them out to everybody, and everybody would sign everybody else's autograph books, and we would go home and read them, and pages would be folded. And it's sort of like that for me. You know, like I'm just leaving a little sort of signature of what matters to me, and making it into some sort of art, the best I can. And yeah, there's still things that I want to share and offerings that I want to make, that hopefully will reach a wide swath, in particular, older women. I'm really into giving us a level of community and direction. People who might not otherwise be exposed to the teachings of Zen Buddhism, I find that to be so calming for my system. You know, things like that, if I can share it in an effective way without being too, you know, vociferous. That's great.

Speaker 1:
[15:14] It's such an interesting tension, though, right? Because on the one hand, you may offer something to somebody, and your mind is thinking, this is about the teachings. Yes. This is about the lineage. This is about what's been passed down, first orally for like thousands of years, and then written and lived and embodied and proven over and over to like affect us. So your mind can sit there and say, this is about the teachings. And yet people will always tell an affinity to the teacher. And they'll connect some of the effect that they feel from the teaching, from the practice to the being sitting across from them. It's dicey.

Speaker 2:
[15:59] It is dicey. I really try. Whenever I'm presenting anything, I always credit the teachers, credit the teachings, make sure, as you very well articulated that, this isn't about me, this person sitting here. It's really about what is important to consider for our health, for our bodies, for our state of mind. You know, it can't be. And if I've learned anything through chaplaincy training at UPIYA, it's that. It's not about me. I'm not even here.

Speaker 1:
[16:38] Well, you are there for that one person, for that window of time, and maybe the ones who love them. Yeah. But even so, you're there in service of the whole time. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[16:48] And hopefully, I'm affording that person a level of presence themselves that maybe they weren't considering before. You know, that they are important, their health and their sort of happiness, comfort matters, particularly comfort if in hospice. Yeah, there's something really quiet about it that I appreciate.

Speaker 1:
[17:18] And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. During that season where you were very forward-facing, that long season, you as many of us do, we're also living a bit of a double life. And for you, part of that double life was addiction. For so many other people, it may be addiction to any number of things. But it also just may be this split between, this is how I show up publicly, and this is how I know myself to really be behind closed doors. We'd like to point to other people and say, oh, that's them, not us. I've yet to meet a person who's living a fully integrated, everything all at once, what you see is what you get. It's not me. I aspire to it. I mean, I think I aspire to it.

Speaker 2:
[18:20] Is there anything that you're hiding now?

Speaker 1:
[18:21] Of course, always.

Speaker 2:
[18:23] I see, I see, I see.

Speaker 1:
[18:25] But there's a cost to that. You know, there's a very real cost to living as one person in one part of your life and living as another person in another part of your life.

Speaker 2:
[18:37] Yeah, it was very painful.

Speaker 1:
[18:38] Yeah, I'm curious how that showed up for you.

Speaker 2:
[18:40] It was so painful. I think we talked about this, I feel like, the first time we spoke, but it was just so weird to know what I wanted to be doing. And then to watch my hand go into the closet and grab the weed and the tobacco bag and the rolling papers and the ashtray and the lighter and do the thing every morning.

Speaker 1:
[19:02] It's crazy.

Speaker 2:
[19:05] And, you know, there wasn't a low-low, but it was definitely really painful to continue to have a thought and a desire in my head. And continue to have no control over my actions. That pain was acute, acute enough that I called it in, you know. That was now 2014. So, yeah, quite a number of years ago, 12 years ago. Happily.

Speaker 1:
[19:34] Yeah. I mean, it kind of starts to bring us around to some of what you're writing about in your new book also, which is this notion that, I feel like there's a script that's running in all of our heads that says, you've got to hold it together.

Speaker 2:
[19:49] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[19:49] You've got to at least appear like you're holding it together. And that can do so much damage.

Speaker 2:
[19:57] Yeah, I think with age, we learn that that's not the case. And I feel like I'm just realizing that I don't have to hold it together anymore. And that when I'm really struggling, it's okay to struggle and even talk about it. Write about it.

Speaker 1:
[20:16] Was it a gradual emergence for you or did something happen?

Speaker 2:
[20:20] No, it's gradual. And the encouragement of dear friends who are empowering me to, you know, to write the things that I want to write down without feeling like I have to write something pretty, you know? This week I actually wrote a piece that was meant to be about my chaplaincy graduation, but turned out to be a story of me going to the breast doctor the second time because there was a scary scan and like writing every detail of that. And I was emboldened by actually the correspondent, which we were just talking about. And I put things in parentheses and I was expressive and I used exclamation points which have been for Bowton for years in my writing, by myself, you know, by me. And when I read it now, it's just so natural. And I feel like this is finally happening. I'm finally just being myself in my writing without needing it to be, you know, beautiful, tasteful, savory. It can be scary and even, you know, like, there was a point where something happened in the scan, and I made a face like I was eating a sweet tart in the 70s, at the first Star Wars show when I was in the third row. A kid, I could barely understand what was happening on the screen, but I remember the sweet tart, I remember the face, and I wrote about that face, and something switched. So to your question, I do think there was a moment, and I think it happened this week. But I think I feel like, okay, now I can write as myself. Even the book, Hold Nothing, is so beautiful, and there were some hard things that I wrote about in that book. But nothing is free as this particular moment in time, this feeling that I feel.

Speaker 1:
[22:16] I remember reading some writing from poet Rosemary Watolba-Tromer. Yeah. And I believe she's Telluride.

Speaker 2:
[22:27] Yeah, she's Telluride. I get to see her at the Telluride Yoga Festival.

Speaker 1:
[22:29] That's fantastic.

Speaker 2:
[22:30] In the summertime.

Speaker 1:
[22:31] Yeah, such a huge fan of her work. And I'll totally get the actual language wrong, but the essence of what she was writing was like, for a long time, I held myself to the standard of trying to write something good. And she's like, I can't do that. On any given day, I don't know. You know, like maybe every once in a long while. But what I can do is every morning, I can wake up, I can show up, and I can write something that's true. Yeah. Whether it's good or not, I don't have control over, what I have agency over is writing something that is true. And that landed, I literally was like almost shaking when I read that, I was like, Yeah, that's our job.

Speaker 2:
[23:18] Yeah. She's, for the listener who might not know this, she writes a poem a day. And Rosemary is spelled R-O-S-E-M-E-R-R-Y, Rosemary Watola Traumer. And because she's writing a poem a day, we're getting all the facets of her, facets she can't even see.

Speaker 1:
[23:41] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[23:42] And it's such a gift to her audience and her community to receive. But that's all she's doing is writing what's true. Some days it's about nature, some days it's about her family, some days it's about some love she lost. And it inspires me to keep writing and write the novel with my friend Laura and write poetry and never stop, because there are things that are true that are not getting said.

Speaker 1:
[24:10] No.

Speaker 2:
[24:11] And they need to be.

Speaker 1:
[24:12] What do you think are the GC patterns in what tends to be true for a lot of people, but tends to rarely be said? Or maybe just for you?

Speaker 2:
[24:23] Yeah, I think there are some aspects of my ways of relating to my partner, that don't get said often enough. The struggle that I have to really just receive 100% of him without wanting him to change this little one thing, or these little two things.

Speaker 1:
[24:43] Of course, nobody else has ever experienced that either.

Speaker 2:
[24:46] I think that's a really big one for all humans. But he's such a mensch. You'd really love him. I almost wish he could be sitting here with us, because he would enjoy him so much. James. I realized in this week that I had that scare that, okay, if this is real and I'm going to get a sentence, you know, a diagnosis and a time frame. All of a sudden, I fell in love with this person again. All of those little things just melted. And I was back in the seat of, wow, I'm so lucky to have a partner of this caliber, of this kindness. And I think the writing about that gentle transition from not appreciating him to appreciating him gave me a little bit of a window in on that pattern. And I think we're all working with it, you know. We're lucky enough to have a partner. I have so many friends that don't. And not that that's a bad thing, but when I need to ask for a hand with a button or a light bulb, you know, or a molding that's coming, whatever, like he's there. And there's such a gift in that. And I don't, I don't want to forget that. I don't want to take for granted.

Speaker 1:
[26:14] And it is our nature. Yeah. You know, the social scientists call it habituation.

Speaker 2:
[26:20] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[26:20] You know, the longer we're around someone, or something, or some place, whatever it may be, we stop seeing it, we stop seeing them. And it's great. It's almost wired in to us, you know.

Speaker 2:
[26:34] What, is it a safety mechanism to keep us surviving?

Speaker 1:
[26:37] It's probably more an efficiency mechanism, actually. Like, there's so much new that comes at us on a constant basis that our brain is constantly trying to figure out, what does the pattern match? Where can I just file this? Where can I automate the process so it takes more energy or less energy?

Speaker 2:
[26:53] Less energy, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[26:54] So that I can give more energy to all the generally new stuff.

Speaker 2:
[26:57] And keeping myself safe, right?

Speaker 1:
[26:59] Yeah, exactly. So it's kind of a blend of safety and efficiency.

Speaker 2:
[27:03] How interesting.

Speaker 1:
[27:03] In theory. In theory. Who knows what the real truth is. But yeah, we do, I mean, it's not that we're tuned out. It's not that we're not aware. It's not that we're consciously ignoring all the goodness. We're weirdly biologically wired to kind of keep going there.

Speaker 2:
[27:23] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[27:24] And it takes energy. It takes practice, right?

Speaker 2:
[27:30] Yeah, to keep it fresh.

Speaker 1:
[27:32] Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, wow, there is awe, and grace, and joy, and love in this moment, this person, even though it's no different than the moment and the person that I was just in a split second ago.

Speaker 2:
[27:47] Esther Perel does a really good job of, I think mostly her work has helped me keep our connection fresh, James and I, to keep it really strong and thankful.

Speaker 1:
[28:05] So, Bridge, how do we do that while holding nothing?

Speaker 2:
[28:12] Right. Well, I think that is what to do. I think the holding nothing part of it, there was a point where I was with a dear friend who came upon this title for me by way of wanting this for me. She wants, this is what she said at the time, I would love for you to just hold nothing at all. And it was like speaking of pattern recognition, a little alarm went off in my head and I remembered, I didn't remember exactly what it was, but I remembered that I'd heard this expression before. Turns out that it's an old Chinese sutra from probably in the 700s, Chuang Tzu, Chan predecessor to Zen, obviously. The Japanese teachers went to China to find their teachers, took the teachings back to Japan and it became Zen. And it said, welcome nothing, refuse nothing, reflect everything, hold nothing. And this was told to me over dinner in Japan some couple of years ago when I was there with my teacher, and we were on Pilgrim Ridge, and I was just sitting with a friend, and he said this, and I just lit up, I wrote it in three different places in my notebook. And then it came back to me, like a year or two years later, with my friend saying, I'd love for you to hold nothing at all. And I think for folks like us, you and I, we've just confirmed that we came up at the same time, and we both kind of were really going for it, shaping this whatever you want to call it industry movement. For us to let go of that and to let it be shaped by itself and to let go of the notion even that we had anything to do with it is what she was implying and what the sutra is implying. In the context of a relationship, letting the person become new, we're all constantly shedding a million cells, and our bodies are changing, we're becoming less elastic in cellular form and more elastic, I think, in our minds if we pay attention. And to let this person to whom we've become habituated become who they are without pigeonholing them into where we think they are, who we think they are. That's kind of where it lands in relationship, I think, this holding nothing.

Speaker 1:
[30:56] Sitting with that for a second. It's something I've struggled with for a long time. You know, I've heard, I think we both heard versions of these teachings. So many different voices and so many different forms, right?

Speaker 2:
[31:05] Traditions.

Speaker 1:
[31:06] Yeah. And I nod along for a heartbeat. I'm like, yeah. And then I'm like, in the day to day context of my life. My wife, my child, my sister, my mother. Really? Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[31:23] Yeah. My, recently, my sister and I had a pretty real talk. She was expressing some frustrations to me. Really understandable, totally undeniable, actually. And I, in non, using non-violent communication, I asked her what she would love from me. And finally, she was able to say what she would love, and I was able to start delivering. And it has been a beautiful evolution. We're in our 50s. I'm 50, almost 56. She's going to be 54. And the other day on the phone, for the first time, she said, I love you. When she hung up, she was like, oh, that was hard. And I was like, well, thank you so much. I'm so touched. I, you know, thank you. I receive it and love you too. And I think in the, because you're asking this question, in the context of these very close, very long term relations, part of the practice, when we sit and when we relate, we keep having to let go of thought. This thought that's come, okay, I'm going to take a breath instead of follow this little trail, this breadcrumb. This idea that's come similarly about this person and who they are and what they're saying, I can let go of that too. And ask another question and find out something else and allow something else to be true. And, you know, I have proof of this working now, and it's very recent, it's within the last two months, and it's a joy, it's a great joy. I know my mother is like, part of it, influencing both of us.

Speaker 1:
[33:20] She's kind of like moving the puzzle pieces from up on.

Speaker 2:
[33:23] I can't help but think I'm just a marionette here. But it definitely, to your point earlier, it takes a lot of practice to just sit still in a very quiet room with or without other people and come to know your mind. And that's how when you're sitting in front of someone else whom you think you know, you think you know your mind, and you can sort of let go of what I think I know, I can let go of what I think I know about her or anyone. It's the same exact practice. The parallel is right there. Meditation to relating, it's right there.

Speaker 1:
[34:02] Yeah. I think that the struggle I've had with this, the idea of holding nothing, of letting go in these contexts of close relationships, is like, that there can sometimes be a fine line between the feeling of doing that and the feeling of not caring. And, but I think the reframe is maybe this is the ultimate form of caring.

Speaker 2:
[34:22] It's the ultimate form of caring is allowing someone to become who they are before your eyes without imposing your notion based on the past, of who they've been. I know that that's what I want. I know that that's what I long for in my relationship, and I get it from James. And I get it from, I'm getting it from my sister right now because I've given it to her. I'm getting it from my kid in Fitz and Starts, because I'm giving it to him. You know, 19. He knows a lot. You know, I knew a lot when I was 19. And then we turned 23 and 4 and 5 and 30 and 40 and 50. And we realized we know nothing.

Speaker 1:
[35:11] I will die knowing nothing.

Speaker 2:
[35:14] I hope with all my heart that that is true. But yeah, it's a very sweet parallel to draw. I don't think I've ever drawn it as precisely as we've just come to it. But yeah, I think letting go of the thoughts that inevitably arise, letting go of the notions and ideas about humans that we love, that inevitably arise. I think that's a similar practice.

Speaker 1:
[35:41] And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. I work with my wife. We've been together for over three decades now. And...

Speaker 2:
[35:51] Oh, great.

Speaker 1:
[35:52] And we've done a lot of gatherings and events and things like this. And frequently, people would come up to us and say, like, how do you... How do you do it? Right. Like, how do you... Like, you're together all... Like, for decades. And, like, what's the secret? Would you teach a workshop on it? I'm like, no, never. And... But we've thought about it, you know?

Speaker 2:
[36:16] It could be really good. James and I are thinking about it, too. We were asked also. And it's like, well, we have a few things that we do, right?

Speaker 1:
[36:23] But here's kind of what we've come to. It's sure there's all the basic skills, the communications, the openness, you know, all the standard stuff that we kind of all know. But, you know, no small part of it, this kind of ties in to what you've been saying, is the fact that we met in our 20s, where, you know, I'm 60 now. She's a couple years behind me. And in that window, like we were two puzzle pieces when we met that just happened to fit.

Speaker 2:
[36:55] So good.

Speaker 1:
[36:56] We are no longer the same shape puzzle pieces. I mean, thankfully, we've grown, we've changed, we've been through a lot of good things and a lot of really hard things. Individually, those puzzle pieces are not the same shape anymore. But there's something that has allowed them to still fit. And part of that we don't know. It's fate. I don't know. But part of it, this is where I'm getting to what you're talking about, is this idea that something in both of us kind of said, we need to allow the other person to become who they need to become. And trust that as the pieces change shape, they will still fit or not.

Speaker 2:
[37:44] Right.

Speaker 1:
[37:45] And be open to that possibility because when you try and hold the shapes the exact same way, when you just hold on to them and desperately try and lock them in place, even if they still fit a decade to get to that, like they're not true, they're not real, they're not honest, they're contrived. And there's resentment that builds under that, and that is more brutal than anything. Does that land?

Speaker 2:
[38:12] 100 percent, but I do think that communication is everything. And if you guys have good communication, which it seems that you do, you know, as you change, you can say, well, I'm not getting out of this vehicle, and I'm here to change with you. You know, let's see what that feels like for a while. But to have someone say to you, I'm here, and I'm not going anywhere, let's see what we can do about this. It's kind of everything. To the point we were talking about before we started, about nervous system regulation, wow, the way we co-regulate, I'm sure you guys are co-regulating all the time.

Speaker 1:
[38:53] All the time.

Speaker 2:
[38:54] In very beneficial ways, and that's not nothing.

Speaker 1:
[38:59] It also brings us into the conversation a bit. The notion of both safety, which you kind of talked about, but also the notion of silence, which is one of the things that you write about too. I find it interesting because we are, as a population, allergic to silence.

Speaker 2:
[39:18] Allergic. I spend a couple months of the year, the last few years, for a month, three weeks to a month at a time, in practice period at the Zen Center in Santa Fe called Yupaya. And Saturdays are silent. The final week is totally silent. And by silent, and most of the day is actually pretty silent. But by silent, it's not just we're not talking, it's that we are not even looking at each other. Our eyes are cast down, there's no personality. It's really hard to do this right now, but I'm going to do it anyway. No personality, no recognition, no, hey, how are you? Everything cool? Like, I have a few friends and we'll like do like a little pinky touch in the zendo right now and again. But it's more about fortifying our sense of self as capacious enough to serve, rather than our sense of self as like an egotistical, I'm so great, I can do this. And that that is not an easy practice at all for people in our society, but it's shown me a lot. And now I have lots of friends with whom I can sit and sip tea in silence, three, four or five pours, we can just sit together without talking. And it is divine. It is so healing, helpful to be with my favorite people or even new friends and not talk. And that's been a part of my life also since we saw each other probably the last 12, 13 years, and it's one of those oases in my life. Like, let's have tea, let's not talk for an hour and a half, and let's just be together in close quarters without communicating necessarily in speech.

Speaker 1:
[41:18] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[41:19] So beautiful.

Speaker 1:
[41:20] Yeah. Doesn't come naturally. No.

Speaker 2:
[41:23] Oh no. The first time I was so uncomfortable, I wrote about it in the book, wanting to talk to people, and like, am I doing this right? Can you tell me? Can you help me out? Just unbelievable how allergic I was.

Speaker 1:
[41:38] I mean, because in that space, everything comes up. All the stuff that oftentimes we don't want to explore, so we do it by filling the space. I often sit, actually, a former student of yours from your New York days, pours tea here in Boulder.

Speaker 2:
[42:01] Who?

Speaker 1:
[42:02] John O'Connor.

Speaker 2:
[42:06] Oh, I wish I'd known.

Speaker 1:
[42:07] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[42:08] Amazing.

Speaker 1:
[42:09] So he does it. His wife, she invites women over, and she'll pour it. He invites a group of guys over. I was on a Sunday morning at like, yeah, eight o'clock in the morning.

Speaker 2:
[42:19] That's incredible.

Speaker 1:
[42:21] We've got like a bunch of boulder dudes.

Speaker 2:
[42:23] Boulder dudes sipping tea.

Speaker 1:
[42:24] Sitting around and he'll often pour seven cups. So we were there for quite a while. Hour and a half, yeah. Total silence. And it's such a gorgeous time. And I know some of them, I don't know a bunch of them. There's a kind of like, there's regulars in a rotation. But it's such a gift to be able to just sit in sort of like a ritualistic way, to not take yourself too seriously at the same time. And to let whatever comes up, come up.

Speaker 2:
[43:00] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[43:01] You know, because we just, you know, meditating forever. But it's different. It's different.

Speaker 2:
[43:08] When you're, when you're, quote unquote, meditating but in, in community and doing something in a meditative way. Oh, I just find that so beautiful.

Speaker 1:
[43:20] One of the questions that you pose. And one of the questions I think is probably interesting to sit with in silence is what's being asked of me.

Speaker 2:
[43:30] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[43:31] Take me into that more.

Speaker 2:
[43:32] It's just the question that I'm asking every morning when I wake up. You know, what's being asked of me today and slowly, but surely my days are getting less and less work-oriented and more practice-oriented, volunteer-oriented, which is so nice. So I don't have to, you know, I'm not so much managing a schedule anymore. So what is being asked of me today rather than it being, well, I have an 8 o'clock and I have 12 o'clock and I have two and maybe a four. It's more like, well, I'm going to be present for my kid. He was just here visiting with me the last couple of days. So yesterday sounded a little bit like I'm going to be present for my kid, I'm going to let him pick the meals and let him drive the whole day. I'm just going to follow along like I'm serving somebody. And it was beautiful. And it's just what happened. Some days it's much bigger. Some days I'm going to my patient's home that I'm working with now. She shall remain nameless, but she is a very renowned chef, who's now in her 80s, suffering from a progressive neurological situation that is very serious and very fast acting. And what's being asked of me when I go there is not dissimilar to what's being asked of me when I'm with my kid. Presence. Follow along with the energy. See what's needed. One day I'm cleaning out her cabinets, her spice cabinets, and she can't speak, so I can, you know, I'm just taking them out of the cabinet and I'm looking at it and I'm going, well, looks like it's been here for 15 years and I'll smell it. And I'll be like, not sure. And I would hand it over to her to smell. And she can't, she's fully there in her brain, but she can't speak. So she'll go like this or she'll go like this. One day it's that, one day it's us doing a little bit of yoga. One day it's us working. She has a bar across the wall in her bedroom, ballet bar, and we're doing work on that, strengthening her legs and feet and reaction times. And, you know, what's being asked of me is so different day to day. And I find it's the best question to ask myself, to get oriented.

Speaker 1:
[45:58] I mean, as much as the unique expression of the answer changes on a moment to moment basis, do you feel like that, like the thread underneath it, the fundamental impulse to the answer is still just some form of presence?

Speaker 2:
[46:14] Yes. That's the word. The pattern is there. That's the word. Kid, patient, dad, work, presence, here, presence. What else do we have to offer really in the end?

Speaker 1:
[46:30] Not a lot.

Speaker 2:
[46:32] Before we started, you said, yeah, we're just sort of, we were talking about how the world just sort of contracts at this point, and we're so lucky to be in our 50s and not be clamoring to be in our 40s, but actually be aware that we're in a really good, fortunate spot right now to be awake and to know that things are contracting, and to actually use the contraction as a focal point to see where, as you said, where we want this to land. Such a beautiful consideration. And to have that kind of be the way to think about the offering of presence. This is where I want things to land. I hope that I will have offered a lot of presence to the people that I love and that I serve, to the practices that I serve, to the teachings that I serve. A lot of presence, I hope, is where it lands.

Speaker 1:
[47:34] Beautiful thing about that also is presence is not a trait. It's a skill.

Speaker 2:
[47:40] It's totally a skill in practice.

Speaker 1:
[47:41] If you're somebody who's spinning and feel like they're constantly scattered and you're constantly somewhere else, you're constantly distracted, that's just not me. I just can't say it. I just can't be present. I just can't be still. I can't be here. I'm just not, quote, wired that way. It's a story.

Speaker 2:
[47:57] Yeah, because every one of us at some point will meet our end. And at that point, if we have our wits about us, things get very sharp very quickly. Presence is definitely available to all of us. And I've seen it when people are in the active dying phase and they are still with us in their intellect. The level of presence is, it's just a miracle. It's so beautiful. And when they know that it's happening and they know what they want it to be like and they know what they want to offer to the moment of their own death, there's nothing more beautiful. It's more beautiful than birth. You know, more magnificent in a way. I don't mean to use such big words. I want to use something more descriptive. It's very moving to see somebody who knows, you know, medical assistance in death. I've seen that a bunch of times and they know this is their hour. They're about to lose consciousness. Their organs are about to shut down because of the medicine they've taken and they're about to be delivered to the other side of the mountain, as it were, or whatever you want to call it. The level of presence that they have is unmatched.

Speaker 1:
[49:26] It's not like we could bring that to every moment before that.

Speaker 2:
[49:31] Amen.

Speaker 1:
[49:34] It feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. So I asked you this question once a long time ago, and I'll ask it again in this container of Good Life Project. If I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up?

Speaker 2:
[49:48] To die a good death. Yeah, to prepare in all of these little ways and big ways, to be ready and willing to die a good death. I think that makes her a really good life.

Speaker 1:
[50:12] Hey, before you leave, be sure to tune in next week for our conversation with Dave DeSteno about the spiritual technology that can lower your stress and mortality risk, even if you don't consider yourself a person of faith. Be sure to follow Good Life Project wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss any upcoming episodes. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers, Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields, editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young. Chris Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project wherever you get your podcasts. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you're still here. Do me a personal favor, a seven second favor and share it with just one person. If you want to share it with more, hey, that's awesome, but just one person, even then, invite them to talk with you about what you both discovered, to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter, because that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.