transcript

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Speaker 1:
[01:51] Hello, and welcome to Little Gold Men, Vanity Fair's podcast for film, TV and awards lovers. I'm Rebecca Ford.

Speaker 3:
[01:58] And I'm John Ross.

Speaker 1:
[02:00] Before we kick things off, we want to let listeners know that next week, we're going to be talking all about The Devil Wears Prada, both the new movie, which is out next weekend, and the original. We're going to be doing a little rewatch, so if you've been feeling like it's time for a rewatch yourself, do it this week.

Speaker 3:
[02:15] And we're also going to be talking to the writer of both films, Aline Brosh McKenna. So if you have any questions for her about the Devil Wears Prada, send them to littlegoldmen at vf.com.

Speaker 1:
[02:26] And with that, John, how are you doing?

Speaker 3:
[02:28] I'm good. I went to the AFI Life Achievement Award, not Lifetime, Life Achievement Award this weekend, where they honored Eddie Murphy. It's a great event. They get incredible people to give tributes. Eddie Murphy was no exception. And then he gave, you know how Eddie Murphy doesn't love giving speeches, but he gave a funny speech at the end where he was like, you know, I'm getting this award kind of young. I'm 65. If you guys waited until 80 or 90, I would have gotten on this stage and said, fuck you. I deserve this younger, which was funny. And then Dave Chappelle talked about, I didn't realize this, but Eddie Murphy's brother, Charlie, worked on the Chappelle show and was one of the stars. And so they talked about that and he sort of mold over maybe the Chappelle show returning. And he was like, if Eddie would come and play Charlie's roles, he would do it, which, you know, got a big rise from the audience. So it was cool.

Speaker 1:
[03:38] That event is always impressive because, like you said, they get everyone, they get huge people to come out. And it's not during, like, an award season. There's no other motivation for these people to do it other than they love the person being honored or they respect them so much. So that one always impresses me. I'm glad you had a good time.

Speaker 3:
[03:55] Yeah. So the special is going to be streaming at the end of May on Netflix. It used to air for many, many years on TNT, but Netflix bought the rights, I think, because they also have such a deep relationship with Eddie. And Eddie thanked Ted Sarandos on the stage.

Speaker 1:
[04:12] Interesting. And the other big news of last week was CinemaCon, which is the annual convention held in Las Vegas, where all the theater owners get together and all the studios show off what is coming for the rest of the year. A bunch of stars fly in. I used to go to this every year when I was at The Hollywood Reporter. I haven't gone since, but sounds like it hasn't changed much.

Speaker 3:
[04:36] Did you like it?

Speaker 1:
[04:38] It's an interesting few days being in one casino with like most of the industry. But, you know, I think it gives you a really good preview for what's to come for the rest of the year. It is very helpful. You get to see sort of exclusive clips that aren't even released on the internet. So you have to kind of be in the room. And I think it does help in that respect. John, do you want to start with maybe some things you felt like played well that you kind of heard about?

Speaker 3:
[05:04] Well, I mean, they showed a clip or an extended trailer, which they have not released online, of The Social Reckoning, which is the, I guess, sequel to The Social Network from Aaron Sorkin. And everybody who saw it said that Jeremy Strong's performance as Mark Zuckerberg is incredible. And I feel pretty strongly that we're going to be seeing him this award season. And the reception seemed pretty high on that. Disney did their, like, Avengers thing where they brought out every Avenger past and present and showed clips of Doctor Doom, which is being played by Robert Downey Jr., which I don't understand how that works.

Speaker 1:
[05:52] He puts on a different voice.

Speaker 3:
[05:53] I don't know. Is it just like he's a completely new person or is this that Iron Man has turned into Doctor Doom? And I know that there's answers to that. And I know that that may sound like a stupid question, but it's a question I need answers to. But that seemed like one of the bigger things out of CinemaCon. What else did you hear about?

Speaker 1:
[06:14] I felt like a lot of people were talking about the first clip from Digger, which is Inuritu's movie starring Tom Cruise, because Tom Cruise is like totally transformed in it. And that seemed really exciting for people. I think he's like overweight and really old. You know, Tom Cruise hasn't aged in like two decades.

Speaker 3:
[06:32] Scientifically, he won't.

Speaker 1:
[06:34] Right, right. So I think that was pretty startling for people. And I think that it obviously could be a real big awards contender. And to see Tom Cruise in the race is something we're definitely going to be keeping our eye on. So that one played well. I think The Odyssey seemed to play quite well for that audience. Christopher Nolan was there. So that always helps. But I think the biggest story was everyone was talking about the merger, and Paramount did its sort of first big presentation. You know, David Ellison was there. They had sort of an original mini movie that had a ton of stars and filmmakers in it to sort of show that they are in this new era as a studio. And Ellison promised, if the merger goes through, to release 30 movies a year with this new combined structure. So I think he was trying to soothe a lot of fears of these theater owners in the audience. TBD, how much of it worked, but they definitely came out sort of swinging and really wanted to show their wares, I guess, to the crowd.

Speaker 3:
[07:39] Also, around that time was when the block, the merger open letter was released, which has a bunch of directors, actors who have signed in protest of the Warner Brothers Paramount merger going through. So, he has a road ahead of him to get the industry on board with this, and Cinemacon, I think, was the first stop on the road, but it's going to be a longer road.

Speaker 1:
[08:08] Yeah. I think it played well for them, but there's still a lot of fear, and yeah, I think he's going to keep going on that campaign for a while. But everything I heard made me more excited for the movies, so I think I'm optimistic. Today on the show, we're talking about an actor that is everywhere right now, Zendaya.

Speaker 3:
[08:30] And there's a lot of discussion about the fact that Hollywood doesn't produce any real movie stars anymore, but I think we feel like Zendaya is a notable exception. I mean, this year alone, we're seeing her in the final season of Euphoria. She has The Drama, which is turning out to be a pretty sizable hit for A24, and then The Odyssey, Dune Part Three, and Spider-Man Brand New Day. So she's got an enormous year.

Speaker 1:
[08:59] Yeah, it's incredible. I mean, I don't remember the last time an actor had that many projects in one year. So we're going to be talking about what has made Zendaya such an intriguing star of the moment, from the roles she chooses, to her fashion, to her part in one of Hollywood's most private power couples.

Speaker 3:
[09:16] And to help us out, we're joined by our New York correspondent, Chris Murphy. Hi, Chris.

Speaker 4:
[09:22] Hi, hi. It's always great to be back.

Speaker 1:
[09:25] Thanks for coming back to talk about a very special lady with us. Zendaya has been in Hollywood for over 15 years. Her first job was on the Disney Channel series Shake It Up back in 2010. But I'm curious for each of you, when was the first time she really landed on your radar?

Speaker 4:
[09:42] You would think that I would maybe have been a Shake It Up fan, but that was a little bit past my generation. So I knew who she was, but I didn't want Shake It Up. It's a different micro-generation of Disney Channel than mine. I was a Raven-Symon, Hillary Duff, those are my girls. So I didn't really know Zendaya until Euphoria is when she really popped. It was like, oh my gosh, who's this person that I thought was just a child actor who has grown up and is now leading a prestige HBO show. So yeah, it was Ru Bennett for me.

Speaker 3:
[10:15] As an actress, I would say the same. Euphoria was the thing that I first saw her in, that I totally saw her as an actor. As a celebrity, it was honestly the scandal from Fashion Police way back in the day, where Juliana Rancic made that comment about her hairstyle that she wore on some red carpet and she responded and it turned into what was one of the earlier social media moments.

Speaker 4:
[10:48] It was 2015, which is crazy.

Speaker 3:
[10:51] It feels like longer ago, but that's when she came into the lexicon for me as a celebrity. What about you, Rebecca?

Speaker 1:
[11:01] I remember that Oscars red carpet scandal very viscerally.

Speaker 3:
[11:05] It was the Oscars.

Speaker 4:
[11:07] It was the Oscars. It was the Oscars.

Speaker 3:
[11:08] Wow, okay, that makes more sense.

Speaker 1:
[11:10] That was a huge, crazy red carpet scandal. But I am a big fan of The Greatest Showman. I have seen it many, many times. And I loved everything about the movie, but I really loved her in that because, I mean, I think we can talk more about this, but what makes her special is she's like a quadruple threat. Like she can sing, she can dance, she can act. She's a fashion icon. And that movie just remains one of my faves. So I really loved her in that. And then, of course, Euphoria after that. So, Chris, but you interviewed her for the Hollywood issue a couple of years ago, and I think she was at a really interesting point in her career then. What do you remember about talking to her for that?

Speaker 4:
[11:51] Yeah, I did. It was for our 2025 Hollywood issue. So it was like late 2024 when I got to talk to her. I do remember that due to her crazy schedule, it was a phone call that got pushed many hours into the evening, but she was well worth the wait. She was so charming even on the phone, just obviously media-trained but not in a stilted way where it felt difficult to talk to her. We talked about her Disney Channel past, we talked about Tom Holland and their first chemistry read, and why she likes acting opposite him. We talked about Euphoria, we talked about her love of the Cheetah Girls and her Disney Channel roots. So we stayed on for like 20 extra minutes, just having a nice time talking. So I had a good experience with her.

Speaker 1:
[12:36] But I think when we look at even just her line up this year, it really speaks to sort of the variety of projects she's able to take on. Like, yes, she's been in these franchises, you know, Dune and Spider-Man. I mean, it's two major franchises. And like, people can argue, well, you don't go to those movies to see her. But I think by having challengers in the drama, also in the mix of what she's done, she's proving that she can do everything. She can do sort of a more auteur driven film that requires her to be the movie star that brings in an audience. So I think that's why I'm so impressed with her. What about you guys?

Speaker 3:
[13:15] Yeah, I mean, I think she's the full picture. The drama, challengers and quite frankly, Euphoria. I mean, she is the lead of one of the most important television shows of the last decade. And she took that on right after leaving Disney, which I think totally reframed her. I mean, there is such a stigma on the Disney actors. I think part of the problem is quite frankly, their quality of acting, right? Yeah, for sure. And what she is, is undoubtedly a very, very good actor.

Speaker 4:
[13:55] Yeah, I agree. I do think that she has a little bit of a criticism sometimes for being so professional and a little buttoned up. I mean, Dorian St. Felix, who writes for The New Yorker, just wrote this really interesting exploration of Zendaya as an actor but also as a commodity in society and as a business woman. And she just mentioned that her acting, sometimes, to quote her, there is rarely the sense that she is performing from the full liberated joy of her power, but rather that she is working through a complex casting strategy that will yield carefully calibrated wins, end quote. Which I can see totally where Doreen is coming from in terms of, you can always tell that it's Zendaya and that's part of her strength as a movie star. I think it's like a Julia Roberts thing, it's a Denzel thing where it's like, we're coming to see Zendaya do something. We're not watching this transformative Tilda Swinton ask thing where you're completely becoming another person. That I think can make it seem that she might not be as great of an actress as I think she is. I think she sometimes gets the short end of the stick there because people are like, oh, well, it's like I'm always watching. It's her, it's always her.

Speaker 3:
[14:57] But that's Sandra Bullock.

Speaker 4:
[14:59] I mean, that's the movie star thing. A lot of movie stars, that's their indelible quality that just draws you to them. So there's green presence. But I do think sometimes she gets unfairly maligned. But I also do see the argument that there is a sort of, she's so media trained and professional and beautiful and just sort of perfect in a way that it can be hard to tap into messiness of an actor. And you don't really see that messiness in many of her performances. I would say challengers in the drama, we're moving in that direction. And I'm like, I want to see her do more of that.

Speaker 1:
[15:33] Yeah, I think that we will see more of it as she's growing up. And now that she's solidified herself as this movie star, I think it gives her maybe a little more freedom to experiment in a way she couldn't when she was on The Rise. But we'll see. I agree. I think you go to a movie to see her and that's her generation of actors. That's not as common maybe as what you're referencing like Tom Hanks or Julie Roberts. Like that generation, there were a lot more stars like that. So maybe that's why the criticism is hitting her like that. But I think she's an incredible actor. I think Rue, especially in this third season, like that person is so different from her and messy and queer. And like there's a lot there that's so outside of herself. And I think she delivers sort of whatever is thrown at her. We haven't seen all of this season, but I think even in the first three episodes, you can really see how different of a person she's playing.

Speaker 3:
[16:24] Yeah. I mean, she's not a character actress. So...

Speaker 4:
[16:27] She's a movie star.

Speaker 1:
[16:29] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[16:29] Well, but there are character actors that also are movie stars. People say Brad Pitt is sort of like that. Brad Pitt almost... His worst acting is when he's close to self. His best acting is when he's playing a character. Yeah. Leo, we don't know who he is at all, so it's hard to tell where we are in the close to self or not close to self. She's much closer to, like I said, a Sandra or a Julia Roberts. It takes a certain type of movie star to make the audience come along with you, and that requires you to have a likeability factor and an ability to feel like a relatability that she has. And I think that what she does so well is that so many young women feel like they get her and that she's like a part of their world. Her fashion is so incredible and she is such a star, but she still seems so relatable. And that is what translates to what I think is some of her best work, which I personally think aside from Rue, I think she was incredible and challengers. I think she really showed herself as an adult actress. I think she was funny. I really believed her as a really, really, really rich woman and had an incredible haircut.

Speaker 4:
[17:59] But she did. I agree. And I do think it's funny because we're all not talking about one specific movie that I think she learned a lot from. Malcolm and Marie was directed by Sam Levinson, who does Euphoria, and she starred opposite John David Washington as a filmmaker's girlfriend. And it's the night that he gets a really bad review, and then everything falls apart for them. And the thing about that movie is it frankly wasn't very good at all. It's not her fault, but it was just ill-conceived and not well executed. But since then, she's made so many great choices in terms of knowing what to pick, re-challengers, and the drama, and doing it in the works beforehand. And all these projects are very different genre-wise. I mean, the challenge is that it's steamy, it's a sort of sexy threesome movie, whereas the drama is pitch black comedy, awkward, intense, really kind of uncomfortable. And then you've got sci-fi stuff, you've got The Greatest Showman. She's kind of a four quadrant star, which again, is becoming increasingly rare. So I do think that should be mentioned.

Speaker 3:
[19:06] I give her credit for Dune because a lot of actors would say, okay, in the first one, I'm not doing anything. I'm waiting around in the hopes that the first one is a success so that I can have a bigger role in the second one and be a part of a real original franchise, which, you know, Dine is producing and creating and being a part of what is, you know, kind of in some ways like a new Star Wars. A lot of actors would not take that risk and not do the amount of work that she did in the promotion of Dune One in order to get Dune Two greenlit. Because remember, that movie was not greenlit until Dune One did so well. And so she really put pedal to the metal and opened that first movie with Timothy in order to get the opportunity to have the bigger role in the second one. And I think that's like an example of why she's such a smart movie star. She has the ability to really look ahead in a way that, you know, not everyone can.

Speaker 4:
[20:14] It's chestnut checkers. She knows the moves to make.

Speaker 1:
[20:18] Yeah, she, I also think has spoken up pretty openly in interviews about how much she cares about theatrical succeeding. And yes, Timothy has done the same thing. Tom Cruise, obviously that's his main thing. Michael B. Jordan says it too. But I think for her to have that awareness as a specifically an actress, I think it's pretty unique to her and she's doing it, you know, so I like that she's also of this generation that's like, I'm going to help make theaters survive.

Speaker 4:
[20:47] Yeah, no, that was a very big part when we talked. There was definitely something that she hammered in. She was like, yeah, I'm doing it for the theatrical release, for the mom and pop cinemas run all over the country, the little guys, you know, as well as, you know, the AMCs and the regals and whatnot. But she really does care about that.

Speaker 3:
[21:02] Well, and I think let's talk a little. Her ability to promote films is unmatched. And it is a reflection of being a Disney actress and going through that Disney machine. But she's been able to take that discipline and work it into being an adult actor without the sort of machine of Disney behind you and still really promote movies and open movies. She is so smart. It's tough to get her to make a flip in common. She is not Jennifer Lawrence. You know?

Speaker 4:
[21:44] Very much not.

Speaker 3:
[21:45] But it's still very successful.

Speaker 4:
[21:48] Yeah, you know what? The Polish is reminding me of, which is interesting because this other person has a big movie coming out right now. But she's got a little bit of an Anne Hathaway thing where it's this polish that's like, I don't want to say princess, but it's kind of like princess polish. And we had that period where nobody liked Anne Hathaway, which was terrible 10 years ago. But since then, now everyone loves Anne Hathaway. She also is doing a bunch of different movies in different genres. She's got Mother Mary, she's got Double World Prada, The Odyssey's coming, which Zendaya's in too. So it's like, boom.

Speaker 1:
[22:15] Everyone is in The Odyssey, Chris.

Speaker 4:
[22:17] Everyone who's me and you know is in The Odyssey.

Speaker 3:
[22:18] She's Helen of Troy, I think.

Speaker 4:
[22:19] Yeah, exactly. So I can see a parallel. And it's funny because they were in that Bulgari ad together that was so beautiful and glamorous. So it's like, they clearly even marketers see them in a similar light. There was a polish with a likeability and a relatability. Some had to fight more for that, but Zendaya definitely has that in Spade. And I think that goes to your point in terms of like, people want to look at her and see what she's going to do and how she's going to act in whatever she's in.

Speaker 1:
[22:48] The campaign she did for The Drama is a great example of what she's able to do because she showed up at sneak screenings. She did like a very curated list of interviews, mostly paired with Robert Pattinson where they would like play off each other. She did a lot for that movie and it worked. As she is with her career, she was really thinking about what outlets, like a modern love interview because it's a relationship movie. She's selective in a very smart way, but she really put herself out there, I think, to make sure that movie worked because it couldn't lean on IP or being this big franchise already.

Speaker 3:
[23:24] It couldn't lean just on celebrity. We talked a little bit about Die My Love last year, which basically had a very similar campaign with Jennifer Lawrence and Robert Pattinson doing a lot of stuff together. That movie did not work. Listen, it's a different movie. There was a lot of different elements there. But I think what she did so well was she goes on modern love. She gives a little taste of what I call celebrity skin, which is a little taste of like hinting at Tom and stuff like that. But she brings it back to, I'm actually here because of this movie, which opens here that you can see in theaters. It's important.

Speaker 4:
[24:08] Disney kids, they learn a couple of things at the Mickey Mouse Club.

Speaker 1:
[24:12] I think it's fair to say we're all fans of both her work and the way she's become a celebrity and a star. So we're going to take a quick break. When we get back, José Criales-Unzueta is going to join us to talk about how Zendaya's fashion choices have influenced her stardom. Don't go away.

Speaker 5:
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Speaker 6:
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Speaker 5:
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Speaker 6:
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Speaker 5:
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Speaker 6:
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Speaker 5:
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Speaker 6:
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Speaker 5:
[25:17] Happy baking.

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 7:
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Speaker 1:
[27:37] Welcome back to Little Gold Men, and welcome to VF Style correspondent, José Criales-Unzueta. Hi, José.

Speaker 6:
[27:43] Hey, what's up?

Speaker 1:
[27:45] Welcome back.

Speaker 3:
[27:46] You were just here in LA, weren't you?

Speaker 8:
[27:48] I was, I was there for literally 22 hours.

Speaker 1:
[27:51] Oh, that's enough. Not enough time to see us.

Speaker 8:
[27:54] I know, I'm like, where are my little gold divas? But no, I couldn't come to you.

Speaker 3:
[27:59] That's your life. Okay, so, José, we're talking about Zendaya's status as a major star. And, I mean, a huge piece of that is her fashion. She is one of the most fashionable people in Hollywood, hands down, don't you think?

Speaker 8:
[28:15] A hundred percent. I mean, I think it's also interesting because she has leveraged fashion. Her and Law Roach, as a collaboration, right, her stylist, have leveraged fashion in a way in which I don't think any other of her contemporaries have. I don't think of anything she sort of established a bit of a blueprint and showing how other celebrities can use fashion to become more famous in a way, or become cooler or more interesting or more appealing to first an audience and then the rest of the film industry, perhaps.

Speaker 1:
[28:46] Let's talk a little bit about that collaboration with Law Roach because they've known each other, they've worked together since she was like early teens, right? What is it about how they do this that is so unique?

Speaker 8:
[28:57] I think to me, what is unique about them is that they seem to be really close. They care a lot for each other, they are friends, and they have a close relationship where there's an awareness from both ends that this is fully symbiotic. You know what I mean? I think Law loves fashion, he's so good at fashion, but he also sees that the way in which Zendaya's profile has grown is, yes, in part due to him, but also his profile has grown because of her. And I think Zendaya, on the other hand, same thing, right? Like she, I think, has a clear understanding of how much fashion has done for her and how much her style has done for her. And while she does have really great taste and she speaks about fashion as someone who knows about fashion, which is always delightful from my side, it is also really interesting that she will always credit him. And like, you know, she's one of those celebrities, and this doesn't always happen, you know, for the people at home, that when they are photographed for a magazine, when they are photographed for a campaign, when they are photographed for whatever they are, they will always request to use their own teams, right? And this is one of those few cases in which if you're a magazine, you're like, you know what, why not? Like, it works, like, you know, I think, and I'll give an example, like Vogue, Zendaya's cover for, I think it was in 2024, photographed by Anna Leibovitz, like that was, I think, Law's first time styling a cover for Vogue, and it was like Zendaya's, I think, second cover, but that was a collaboration, right? Like Law styled her, looks incredible. She had worn things in that cover that she had brands and things that she hadn't worn in the past, but at the same time, it just made sense, because why would you break them apart? They work so well.

Speaker 1:
[30:28] I have some questions, José, about... We love questions. About her sort of method dressing, dressing thematically throughout the promotional campaign to the film. I think she does an incredible job, but I do have a theory that if any other actor tried to do this, people would give them a hard time. But she never missteps. So why does it work so well for her?

Speaker 8:
[30:50] I think it works for two reasons. I think something that is undeniable and I think that is important to establish is that Zendaya is gorgeous. Like she is stunning, she is sample sized, she has super long, beautiful legs, like she is stunning, she looks like a model. And the thing about it too is that she knows how to use her body like a model. Like if you ever see BTS photos of her posing in photoshoots, you're so impressed, you're like, oh my God, it's giving sort of like, you know, old school super. And at the same time, if you sort of see her on the red carpet, she knows, she's even made, I think Graham Norton and other talk shows, she's made jokes about how she always does sort of like the same thing with her legs. She knows how to wear clothes so well, right? So I think once you establish that, it makes sense that whatever she wears, you're just like, you know what, sure, like right. But I think in terms of method dressing, and that is sort of like a Law Roach special, right? Like he started doing this. And like people think this started with like Dune or maybe Spider-Man, but this goes like Greatest Showman. Like this is like very early days. The thing is like maybe we weren't paying that much attention to Zendaya at the time, but they were doing it, right? It works really well because I think it helps tell the story. But I think what's most important is that law has a very deep understanding of how this industry works, and not just in terms of like what goes viral or what doesn't, but also in terms of how magazines and reporting and coverage works, right? If someone just looks good, that's not enough to write about. Like if you work on the fashion section at a website, if someone just looks fab, that's 200 words, and you're like doing your best to get those out, right? But if there is sort of like a little bit, if there's a gag, if there's a gimmick, that you start building a story, right? And then you start building sort of something that you can talk about a little bit more. And I think that's sort of like the crux of method dressing, right? The reason why it works, period, for everyone else, not just Zendaya in terms of going viral, in terms of coverage, etc., is that it gives people something to talk about. And I think for them, it works just because she wears clothes really well, but also because Law always has the right clothes. Or he also, he always does it in a way that feels not too on the nose. And when it is on the nose, it's like when she wore that sort of like Spider-Webby kind of dress for Spider-Man, it was so glad, it was so beautiful that it wasn't sort of like, oh, she's in custom, right? And I think that's the difference. I think a lot of other actors that do this sort of lean a little too hard into the character and then become, like, they end up looking like the character. But I think she sort of always goes fashion. I will say of all the sort of tours, my least favorite was Challenger's.

Speaker 4:
[33:17] Oh, Challenger's, okay, not the drama of the Challenger's, okay.

Speaker 8:
[33:20] Because to me, it almost got to this point where I'm like, okay, like, why are you wearing tennis balls in your shoes, right?

Speaker 4:
[33:26] Yeah, it's a little cost to me.

Speaker 8:
[33:27] Exactly, it sort of like crosses the line slightly, but I think everywhere else, like I remember when she wore, like, Rick Owens to promote that first Dune movie, I was like, right, like, of course. There's always a lot of intention in that. And sometimes the narrative goes a little too far. Like, I think in the drama, you're sort of like, okay, like, now I need to remember that, like, is this the board, is this the blue, is this the new, you know, like you're sort of like, now you're starting to ask a lot from the audience as well. But in some way, I think that's kind of fun too.

Speaker 3:
[33:51] But that's capturing the attention.

Speaker 8:
[33:54] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[33:54] And it shows that she has a sense of humor for someone who is so polished and charming. Exactly. And then like wearing the dress that she wore when she ended Joanna Rancic's career from the Oscars and wearing that as something old, that's kind of funny. That's like a winking nod if you've been following her, if you've known about her for years, it's like, oh, I see what she did there and I respect that.

Speaker 8:
[34:10] I agree. And I think to both of your points is that it's like at the end of the day, one, it shows that she also has a sense of humor and she also thinks about things in some sort of way, but also it gives people something to talk about and it captures attention. And again, it gives people something to follow through a press tour. And I will say Zendaya is so good at not talking about herself, that when you give her the fashion, she has something to talk about. And I think the drama is a really good example of that, right? Sort of like the awareness of how many people are talking about whether or not they got married and them wearing wedding dresses is hilarious. And the fact that she's managed to go through this press tour without sort of adding to that flame from...

Speaker 4:
[34:50] We don't know.

Speaker 8:
[34:50] Exactly. We still don't actually know.

Speaker 4:
[34:52] If they're married, we just start, yeah, it's absolutely fine.

Speaker 8:
[34:54] You know? And I think that is like, that is using fashion in a really, really intelligent way. And I think, you know, she's also really aware of like how much it's done for her career. So why would she not continue doing it? Like now it's her thing, you know?

Speaker 1:
[35:05] She has a new collaboration with On. How do you see that in sort of the narrative of her fashion story?

Speaker 8:
[35:13] It's actually really interesting to me, because Zendaya is, there are very few actors who sort of kind of like go through their careers without becoming super attached to one designer or one brand, right? Of course, Zendaya is a Vuitton ambassador, and before that she was a Valentino ambassador. But what's interesting to me about On is that this is almost like her having her cake and eating it too, right? It is no secret, I hope to anyone at this point, that actors are making so much more money outside of...

Speaker 4:
[35:44] Actually making movies and TV shows, they make more money doing brand collaborations. Exactly, right?

Speaker 8:
[35:48] Like they make so much money out of all these brand deals. We've spoken about this in the past as well, and I think it's interesting because her doing this is like leaning into sort of how famous she is as a sort of a style oracle for a certain generation without going too hard, right? Again, she's a Vuitton ambassador, but she's not fully, fully always wearing Vuitton as like Emma Stone, right? I think that's something to say about her power as well in terms of like, brands will be like, I'd rather get one really great Zendaya moment, whether it's at the Met, at the Oscars, whatever, than sort of have a hundred mid-ones in some way. I think Awn speaks to the fact that yes, she can do the brand deal without sort of making it about a handbag, about limiting herself in terms of fashion or the red carpet.

Speaker 3:
[36:31] Okay, let's, for our last question, have some fun. Everyone go around and say their favorite Zendaya look, and there's a lot. Rebecca, I'm going to start with you.

Speaker 1:
[36:41] Okay, I'm going to pick the 2022 Oscars. She wore Valentino. It was a silvery sparkly skirt and this like white button-down crop. And I thought it was just so fun. And I'm not going to pick something from one of her themed method things because I think this was just like a really fun year. I also remember Timothy had like a crop or like no shirt on under his jacket that year. And they were like they were just so youthful and playful, but also like mature at the same time. I really loved that look from her.

Speaker 3:
[37:14] It was also a nod to the Sharon Stone thing, right? Yes. She wore the white cat. Yeah. Okay. Chris?

Speaker 4:
[37:21] Okay. I'm going to go also away from method dressing. I'm going to go when she wore the bubble dress at Paris Fashion Week. She had this gorgeous button up white Oxford shirt, but then this really asymmetrical bubble gown that would look insane on anyone else, but she can pull it off. It was weird, frumpy is not the right word because she's so elegant and high fashion. But it was a lot of fabric and the silhouette would be really crazy on someone who wasn't her, but I just thought it was so great. I talked to her a little bit about wearing it, and I was like, oh, that's really weird.

Speaker 8:
[37:58] I think my favorite Zendaya look is that Rick Owens dress, just because it felt like something she would never wear. Because while it is very fashion, capital F, etc., it's not just like a beautiful gown. You know what I mean? I love that. I also think the bald man she wore also for Dune that first year, the one that was sculpted on her body, that leather one. That to me was gorgeous. So the Bulgarian necklace, she was a Bulgarian ambassador at the time. That to me worked so well. And I think those two me are my favorites because they are method dressing at their finest. You know what I mean? If you're going to go method, you need to really come into the bit without going costume. And those two really worked for me. What's yours, John?

Speaker 3:
[38:37] Okay, I'm going to go for the biggest, campiest thing she's ever done, which is the robot for 2-2, the Mugler robot. Just because I think it is so hard to break through the noise. And when she stepped on that carpet, I mean, our phones exploded. I mean, it was like, it felt a little like when Beyoncé dropped a surprise music video or something. It was like, for the next hour, you were just online being like, is that a real robot? Is she wearing that inside? And I think that, listen, the studios are spending a fortune to fly these people around. I would love to have gotten video of behind the scenes of Law Roach and the 600 Warner Brothers PAs tasked with getting her into that outfit, and then getting her out of it. And it's like, well, is it worth it? For her, it is. For her and that, it's like, yeah, it was worth it. It was the biggest moment.

Speaker 8:
[39:40] That's how you make a modern movie star. You know what I mean? That's how it works. And I think that one is iconic because that's a kind of archive piece, by the way, that you can't alter, right? Like all of those pieces, like they were screwed on around her body. Like you can't sort of like make that shorter, make it like, that had to fit her perfectly. And it did. Like it was sort of like meant to be in some way. Oh, it's also funny. So like in theory, it's method dressing, but I'm also like, there are no like robots.

Speaker 3:
[40:06] Like, you know what I mean?

Speaker 4:
[40:07] It's a robot in Dune.

Speaker 8:
[40:09] But that's also why it works because loosely, it sort of fits into that fantasy.

Speaker 4:
[40:12] It fits into the world.

Speaker 8:
[40:13] And that's more than enough.

Speaker 4:
[40:14] And it makes me think we're going to care about the world and see the world more. So now I'm going to get a ticket to see exactly the movie.

Speaker 8:
[40:19] And then you're sitting in the theater for however many hours.

Speaker 1:
[40:22] Alright, next time we all do this, we each come dressed in our favorite Zendaya outfit. Exactly.

Speaker 8:
[40:27] We'll get to the robot.

Speaker 4:
[40:27] I get my bubble dress out of the closet.

Speaker 1:
[40:31] Well, José, thank you so much for joining us again. It's always great to have you. We're going to take another break. When we get back, does Zendaya's relationship status have anything to do with why we love her? Stick with us.

Speaker 9:
[40:52] At The Moth, we love those moments in life that feel just like movies.

Speaker 10:
[40:57] I lean down because I'm a lot taller than her. And as the train is coming, we place a little peck on the side of our lips, and the wind from the train hits us. And it's magical!

Speaker 9:
[41:08] To hear fascinating, funny, mind-bending, real stories from astronauts, teachers, farmers, and people just like you, follow and listen to The Moth wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 7:
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Speaker 1:
[42:37] Welcome back to Little Gold Men. So I think there's a piece of the Zendaya stardom puzzle that we haven't talked about too much yet, and that's the Tom Holland of it all, her maybe husband, longtime boyfriend. Obviously, celebrity relationships are a huge source of public interest and gossip. What is it about their relationship that makes it such a part of her profile?

Speaker 4:
[43:03] It's kind of like written in the stars, kind of like quintessential, like two movie stars meeting during a chemistry read, and then they play opposite each other, and then they're together forever. It's almost too good to be true. I think that's what people like about it, and I think individually, they both bring their own van bases. Zendaya has the Disney thing, and then Tom Holland has Marvel. Of course, she's now in that world, but he's Spider-Man.

Speaker 1:
[43:29] He's the superhero.

Speaker 4:
[43:31] So I think the marrying of those two worlds, those two very intense and massive fandom worlds, makes the relationship seem like, oh my gosh, it couldn't be real because it's too perfect.

Speaker 1:
[43:43] It's like the sort of thing as old Hollywood studios would make them be in a fake relationship because it's so perfect, but it's real, and it's modern day, and it exists. So yeah, I agree. And Tom Holland is obviously a movie star because of Spider-Man, but he's also like a very charming celebrity. I mean, I don't know how many times I've watched him do that lip sync battle.

Speaker 4:
[44:06] The dance battle, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[44:07] He's an incredible dancer, you know, like they just they have so much talent in two human beings that it's just like, I can see why people are so interested in it.

Speaker 3:
[44:17] Well, they also have the same relationship to fame, which is they're not terribly interested in it outside of promoting the movie. You don't really see them out a lot. They're not a part of the Hollywood circuit, so to speak.

Speaker 1:
[44:33] They don't really go to each other's premieres together to appear.

Speaker 3:
[44:36] They're obviously a real couple. Like, sometimes we watch couples and we're like, these two seem like strangers. Um, that's, you don't get that. You obviously get a sense from them immediately that they're really together, they spend time together. But they're not overly concerned about being a part of the Hollywood machine. And so I think that's just super appealing for both of them. They feel like this kind of like regular couple that just happened to be massive A-list movie stars and then get to do a press tour together once every four years for Spider-Man.

Speaker 4:
[45:18] For the rest of time.

Speaker 1:
[45:21] It's kind of incredible how private they're able to keep their relationship though. Like when they got engaged, she went to the Globes with that ring on, but never said it, never said it out loud to anyone. And now we're doing the same thing like they have probably gotten married, but there were no paparazzi pictures and there's no confirmation. She did an entire press tour without confirming this. Like that is incredible.

Speaker 4:
[45:44] And it's still up in the air because we only heard that they may have gotten married from her stylist, Law Roach, who said, you missed it. He said on the carpet, like, it was great, you missed it, but then no one has confirmed or denied if they've actually gotten married. So it's still pretty unclear as to whether or not they've tied the knot.

Speaker 3:
[46:00] Do you think that that was a mistake on his part or that was planned?

Speaker 4:
[46:04] I think he was maybe playing a little. I don't know. I don't think he makes mistakes. Like I don't think he- Right.

Speaker 1:
[46:09] That's what it feels like.

Speaker 3:
[46:10] No, I don't think she makes mistakes.

Speaker 4:
[46:12] But I still think for something like that, I don't know if that's how the teams would want that news to be shared. So I could see him playing with us, having a little fun. Also, there were all these AI photos from Zendaya and Tom Holland's wedding that were not real, that looked very real sort of. But also if you looked at them, you'd be like, that doesn't make any sense. This is clearly fake. But they went mega viral. They went like super, super viral on Instagram and on Twitter. So it's like people want this content clearly. They're making fake photos and sharing them because people care about this couple so much.

Speaker 1:
[46:46] It does seem sort of perfect that he, you know, slipped this rumor out when she's on The Drama, which is about a wedding to like, it is sort of almost too perfect for it. But it is crazy because you think how many tabloids are probably trying to get any information about that wedding and not a single thing has come out. Like, if it happened and the way they're able to protect their private lives. And I think celebrities should be able to do that. But for two people this famous to be able to do it successfully is pretty incredible.

Speaker 3:
[47:20] Well, because if they got married, I'm sure it was just like not with people that would blab. You know?

Speaker 4:
[47:26] Yeah, but people love to blab.

Speaker 1:
[47:28] Like a waiter? I mean, come on.

Speaker 3:
[47:32] I think it's just like they really are like home bodies and like it was probably pretty small. And, you know, they might do a bigger something later on where like they invite all their celebrity friends and stuff like that. That's what I think.

Speaker 1:
[47:45] This is a lot of fan fiction.

Speaker 4:
[47:47] Yeah. I'm like, so your team, they've definitely gotten married and it happened.

Speaker 3:
[47:50] And the only reason is because Pattinson accidentally said it too.

Speaker 4:
[47:55] OK.

Speaker 3:
[47:55] He said it in an interview. He said your husband or something. And then they quickly brushed over it.

Speaker 4:
[48:01] Yeah. Well, John, you can be honest. Did you officiate the wedding?

Speaker 3:
[48:06] I officiated many weddings, but unfortunately not that one. And if they had had me officiate it, you would know. And it would have leaked.

Speaker 4:
[48:14] And it would have leaked.

Speaker 3:
[48:17] OK.

Speaker 1:
[48:17] I think we could wrap this up by sort of talking about how this relationship with the public influences how audiences see her. You know, I talk to a lot of actors who say, I don't want to share too much about my private life because it influences how audiences may or may not accept me as a character and things like that. I think she has found the perfect balance in a time when that's very hard to do with social media and all of that where like she can be private and then she can also be a celebrity at the same time. What do you think?

Speaker 4:
[48:48] Yeah. I think she kind of is hitting in every department in terms of like being a celebrity that we want to see or we want to know more about. People clearly want to know more about her life and she's private. That's probably part of the reason. Then choosing interesting, mostly good projects. She's been in a bunch of bangers recently. You don't have to love them all, but they're all quite successful and she does great work in all of them, I would say too. So I think and also feeling ubiquitous like she is, we see her photos all the time and like we see her on red carpets, but also having that privacy. I feel it's like, wow, she's sort of like delivering in every category of being a movie star in terms of picking great work, doing good work in that great work, and then also leaving a little mystery for us.

Speaker 3:
[49:34] So we're going to be seeing Zendaya a lot the rest of this year with The Odyssey, Spider-Man, Dune Part Three. But I'm curious if you were to pick a dream project you'd like to see from her next, what would it be?

Speaker 4:
[49:49] I think she's proven herself in the sci-fi realm, in the action realm, in the comedy, like pitch black comedy realm. I know rom-com, you might think that, but actually no. I want to see her. I think she needs a Malcolm and Marie redo, and I want to see her do a really intense drama, lead an intense, not television show, and not one where she's playing a teen or someone. I want to see her lead an Oscar nominated, something.

Speaker 3:
[50:13] You want her in Blue Valentine?

Speaker 4:
[50:15] Yeah. Actually, I think she's ready for something like a Blue Valentine, like a Die My Love, but different than that. Or better. Yeah. I think she can do it. I think that's what people are waiting for her. They want to see, can she hold her own in this way? I think she can, but my biggest complaint with the drama is they didn't give her enough to do. It was too much of a Pattinson's movie, and she was doing great work, but I felt like she needed a little bit more to do, so that's what I want to see.

Speaker 1:
[50:40] Well, I think she is already making a project that is the thing I want her to do, which is Barry Jenkins is directing her in a film. I don't know where they are in the process. Last time I saw Barry, he said he was working on it, and she is going to play Ronnie Spector in The Singer, but it is very specifically about her relationship with producer Phil Spector and not like a full biopic. I think Barry is an incredible filmmaker and I think that pairing will be really exciting, so I hope that is moving along. And then the other thing is I want her to do another big old musical.

Speaker 3:
[51:15] Well, that is mine. I mean, you can't cheat. You can't be like…

Speaker 1:
[51:20] I called John into two answers.

Speaker 3:
[51:22] I want her in a Moulin Rouge. I want to see Zendaya in a Moulin Rouge-type big, you know, Chicago, something. I mean, we know she can sing. We know she can dance. We know she can act and we know that she can wear the hell out of a costume. So I want her in a big budget, Baz Luhrmann-esque musical. I want it to premiere in Cannes. I want it all. I want to have my cake and eat it too.

Speaker 4:
[51:52] You want her in Moulin Rouge and I want her in The Hours. Okay, good. That's the different.

Speaker 3:
[51:56] The Ronnie Spector movie is super interesting. Yeah, that's going to be a great movie.

Speaker 1:
[52:05] I definitely think, you know, the Oscar conversation will be coming for her eventually. So I'm excited for that season as well whenever it happens. So I think whatever she does, obviously, the three of us will be watching closely and very excited to see it.

Speaker 4:
[52:19] Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[52:20] Chris, thank you again. So nice to have you.

Speaker 4:
[52:22] Thank you for having me and I will be back.

Speaker 3:
[52:25] Yes, you will.

Speaker 1:
[52:28] Thanks for listening to Little Gold Men. Michelle O'Brien is our senior producer. We had engineering help today from Pre and Bandy with mixing by Mike Kuchman. Our executive producer is Stephen Valentino.

Speaker 3:
[52:40] And don't forget, next week, we're going deep on the Devil Wears Prada and talking to the writer of both films. So if you have any questions you'd like to ask her, email us at littlegoldmenatbf.com.

Speaker 1:
[52:52] See you next week.

Speaker 11:
[53:04] Hey, y'all, Sam Sanders here. It's finally awards season. But year round, we celebrate the best in film, TV, and pop culture, and share the real stories behind all of it. Like the legendary costume designer, Ruth E. Carter, who helped bring sinners to life. Or the wonderful actor and newly-crowned Emmy winner, Jeff Hiller. Plus, the songwriter behind K-pop Demon Hunters, Mark Sonnenblick. Catch up on your awards season faves every week on the Sam Sanders Show. Listen in the KCRW app, wherever you get your podcast, and on YouTube.

Speaker 7:
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Speaker 10:
[54:12] From PRX.