transcript

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
[00:36] Pop music is like riding the biggest Harley you've ever seen.

Speaker 3:
[00:39] You're about to curse. I was, I was about to curse.

Speaker 2:
[00:42] You're about to curse, this is safe.

Speaker 3:
[00:44] You're about to curse, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[00:46] We'll see if I get chill enough to get there, if I really let this hair that is someone else's, but it's mine for today. We'll see if I can really let it down.

Speaker 3:
[01:03] Welcome to the New York Times Popcast. Your miracles happen of Weekly Culture Chat. I'm Jon Caramanica, I'm the critic.

Speaker 4:
[01:09] I'm Joe Cascarelli and I'm the reporter.

Speaker 2:
[01:12] I'm Anne Hathaway and I'm on Popcast.

Speaker 3:
[01:14] That's right, can you believe it?

Speaker 4:
[01:16] No, definitely not the last, but it's going to be a great show. I'm going to be the host of the show. Not the last.

Speaker 3:
[01:22] No, definitely not the last, but definitely the first.

Speaker 2:
[01:24] You haven't had an Academy Award winning musician on yet?

Speaker 4:
[01:27] No.

Speaker 3:
[01:28] Shout out Ludwig, though. Ludwig, when you want to come on, you let us know.

Speaker 2:
[01:30] Yes, not now, he's on.

Speaker 4:
[01:31] We'll get a couple. And a couple of these people on the wall will win. Will, yes.

Speaker 2:
[01:37] I feel like there's Oscar energy in here.

Speaker 4:
[01:38] Well, certainly today. Everyone knows Anne Hathaway from something. It's true.

Speaker 3:
[01:46] Wow.

Speaker 4:
[01:47] Princess Diaries.

Speaker 2:
[01:48] A princess? Shut up.

Speaker 4:
[01:52] Brokeback Mountain, Devil Wears Prada, Interstellar. She's Catwoman in Dark Knight Rises. Your Oscar aforementioned for Les Mis. But 2026, undoubtedly the year of Anne Hathaway. And the summer of Anne is about to begin. You have five movies coming out this year.

Speaker 2:
[02:14] Yeah, how about that?

Speaker 4:
[02:16] Five films that includes Devil Wears Prada 2, followed by Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey. You have two more films coming out later this year, The End of Oak Street and Verity from Michael Showalter. But the reason you're here with us today, one of the reasons you're on Popcast is that you're coming a little bit into our world as we come a little bit into your world. Mother Mary, you play a tortured veteran pop star, staging a comeback show in search of her spark. She returns to a former collaborator, played by Michaela Cole, fashion designer, and you sing, you dance, you cry. So much crying. This is quite a bonkers movie, I want to say. Talk to us a little bit about finding the character of Mother Mary and where that began for you. Was that a research project or was that a project of imagination?

Speaker 2:
[03:19] It wound up being both. It wound up being both. I had an instinct about the character that I had from the first read, and so in terms of the performance aspect, the brokenness of her, everything related to the dialogue and acting, I had a really early beat into her. Everything else was so much research and all of the performance stuff wound up being a year's long process to learn how to be a pop star.

Speaker 4:
[03:47] Talk to us about your pop star journey as a fan first. Who was the first pop star that caught your eye, and what path have you traveled since then in music?

Speaker 2:
[04:00] Madonna. Madonna, absolutely. Madonna was always there for me. I was born in 1982, and so her music was just everywhere. And you just couldn't, you couldn't miss her. So I just remember like singing her songs all the time. And so I just, I just loved her so much, and I didn't understand. I mean, I couldn't tell you why, but just now that I look back on it, she just, the way she was able to craft this persona and the way she was able to change and the musicianship and the performer that she is, it was just really, really appealing to me. But I was a huge fan of Whitney Houston, too. And so for me, Madonna was the greatest pop performer. But to me, a real pop star was a vocalist like Whitney Houston. Somebody who could just stop time with her voice.

Speaker 4:
[04:52] Well, and Whitney has a special role in your career.

Speaker 2:
[04:55] Yes! How about that?

Speaker 4:
[04:56] Can you talk a little bit about that?

Speaker 2:
[04:58] Yes, Whitney Houston produced the first Princess Diaries with her partner, my wonderful friend Deborah Martin Chase. And yeah, so I got to meet Whitney Houston when I was 17 years old. And yeah, that was just wild. Total dream come true. Jersey girls.

Speaker 3:
[05:15] In your house growing up, given that your mom especially was an actress and a great singer and all, was pop taboo either creatively or aesthetically? Was there some sense that like the theater, that's where serious art happens, but this other stuff on the radio, that's not the same?

Speaker 2:
[05:37] Very much so. Very, very much so. Pop wasn't, especially now the way that I, Pop wasn't rated in my house growing up. Like real singers did Broadway. And that was, and so so much of my kind of early musical exposure was theater based. My older brother was super into rap. Then he got into straight edge hardcore. And so obviously like, and I love my older brother. So obviously I was listening to that.

Speaker 4:
[06:04] A real tri-state kid.

Speaker 2:
[06:05] Absolutely.

Speaker 3:
[06:07] Tell them to watch the show. We have a lot for me.

Speaker 2:
[06:11] And then when I was in high school, that was when like the pop princesses happened and TRL Live was huge. And so I love, that was always my stop after school was going home, watching TRL Live. Love, that was such an amazing music video era. And I felt like very confused because I knew that I loved Britney Spears so much. And maybe one more time, I couldn't stop singing it or get it out of my head. But I had this voice of my parents in my head being like, but Stephen Sondheim is real music.

Speaker 4:
[06:48] And when did you start to bridge that gap? Because you were also singing from a young age, performing on stage, being in musicals. When did you realize like, oh, I can maybe start to do this other thing too, or was it not until this film?

Speaker 2:
[07:04] It was not until this film. I actually like would have, I actually did ask myself that question just because, I knew that I wanted to be an actress from a young age, but my mother being a performer in music theater, I assessed my skill set and I was like, okay, my mother is an amazing singer and I'm a fine singer, but my mother has one of those stop time voices, and she's a wonderful musician as well, and she's just another level, and a level that I'm not at. So I thought, okay, I'm fine, but I don't really see me being able to pay for groceries based on this skill. And then dance was something I would have loved to have done, but I just couldn't figure out why. I went to class all the time and I just never progressed. I couldn't, all the girls around me, they would just get better and better and better. And I was just kind of stuck in one place. So I did it for like all through high school to just try to improve, but it never happened. And so I decided to really focus on acting as a result because I thought that was my best shot and it was the thing I enjoyed the most and it was the thing that I felt like I was developing doing.

Speaker 4:
[08:13] And when you began to work with the director David Lowry on this film, he's directed Green Night, Ghost Story, these very heady sort of metaphysical supernatural stories. But he also obviously wanted to ground this in the real world of pop spectacle and fandom. What kind of conversations were you having with him about the reference points here?

Speaker 2:
[08:40] Well, so working with David Lowry blew my mind in every possible direction. And one of my favorite things was that you meet David and he's so obviously goth.

Speaker 4:
[08:51] I've seen the movies. I don't know the guy, but I've seen the movies.

Speaker 2:
[08:53] Everything about him is so goth. And I mean, his nails are painted black and his t-shirt never, doesn't never ever have a skull on it. Sorry, my grammar is a little slow to the coming to date. I don't know what I just said. His t-shirt doesn't never ever have.

Speaker 4:
[09:08] It doesn't not ever have a skull. We're doing lots of double nightclubs.

Speaker 3:
[09:13] He's festooned with skulls sometimes.

Speaker 2:
[09:16] One could say, I wish I had. So David, his t-shirts are just festooned with skulls. That's right. And like every aspect of it, but he always wears something like he'll be wearing all black and then he'll be wearing like beautiful purple running shoes. So he has this total like dominant goth aesthetic and then one glimmer of pop. And I thought it was so charming when I found out that he is a diehard Swifty. Okay. And so that was, you know, and he had this crazy long playlist of all different types of music. And I mean, obscure artists that I'd never heard of like PL. And but then also, you know, Lord's Greenlight. And Max Richter and all of this, this just this wild range of songs. And the playlist was meant to show kind of not necessarily what Mother Mary sounded like, but the feeling that her music could give you and the feeling the movie was going to hopefully give you. And right dab in the middle of that playlist was Antihero. And I just, that was my song that like got me into, because I always really, really liked Taylor, but that was the song where I was like, oh no, wait, she's taking hold of my brain. And then I got like much deeper into her music. And then once you see it, you can't unsee it. You're just like, oh, oh, she's a genius. Wow, this is amazing. And yeah, so David Lowry absolutely expanded my pop vocabulary, my pop appreciation. And I just immersed myself in the world of pop for about four years to take this movie on.

Speaker 3:
[10:57] Do you now have a preferred Taylor era?

Speaker 2:
[11:02] No, I think that they all speak to each other. True, true, true.

Speaker 4:
[11:06] I mean, not untrue.

Speaker 3:
[11:08] We have some episodes of this show that we can- We've been talking about it.

Speaker 4:
[11:11] Big Swiftie podcast.

Speaker 3:
[11:12] Very, very blessed with podcast.

Speaker 4:
[11:13] Jon and I actually were debating before the show, is Anne a reputation girlie or a folklore girlie? Cause that's us.

Speaker 3:
[11:22] Yeah, I'm a reputation girlie, Joe is a folklore girlie.

Speaker 2:
[11:26] I have to say, like, I love both of those, but I, and this is, I'm late, I'm late. The era's era. Welcome to the era's tour. To have a retrospective like that at the age that she is, and to realize that, like, she had a vision that didn't exist in the world, and she literally made the space that she wanted for herself in the world, she made it happen for herself. And because she exists in a space that isn't typically seen or rewarded by the mainstream, her empire grew so vast, and people didn't see it until eras where she put it all together and all of a sudden you realize that, I mean, she's her own economy.

Speaker 3:
[12:09] Yeah, it's totally, literally.

Speaker 2:
[12:10] It's wild. And that her songs have, more so than the soundtrack, I mean, it's like, it's verse for people. It's like, it's what guides people through their lives. I think it's amazing. Like the Swifties that I know who have been Swifties for, I mean, decades at this point, moments of their life, her words rise unbidden to their mind. It's just like, her words meet the moment for them. And they, yeah, she just, they gave her her birth, she gave her their brains. And she rewards that again and again and again by valuing them. And I just think that's really beautiful.

Speaker 4:
[12:44] One of the insane things about you making this movie, one of the many insane things about this movie.

Speaker 3:
[12:52] It was just a funny choice of adjective.

Speaker 2:
[12:54] Okay.

Speaker 3:
[12:55] It was just a funny choice of adjective.

Speaker 2:
[12:56] I didn't know if I need to say, God bless you, I wasn't looking.

Speaker 3:
[12:58] No, no, no. I mean, first of all, free to be blessed at any moment. But no, I'm just laughing at Jon.

Speaker 2:
[13:05] How long have you guys known each other?

Speaker 4:
[13:07] Since I was a teenager.

Speaker 3:
[13:08] Yeah, since Joe was in college.

Speaker 2:
[13:10] Really?

Speaker 3:
[13:10] I used to read his Tumblr when he was in college. Joe had a great Tumblr in mid-2000s.

Speaker 4:
[13:16] Jon was writing in magazines and newspapers that brought me here.

Speaker 2:
[13:20] That's a beautiful story. Thank you. He's so cute.

Speaker 4:
[13:23] We're putting that in a sizzle by the way. He's saying that's a beautiful story. One of the insane things about this movie is you play a pop star.

Speaker 2:
[13:31] One of the insane things?

Speaker 4:
[13:32] There's many.

Speaker 3:
[13:33] Is it not more?

Speaker 4:
[13:36] You played this role without knowing what the music sounded like.

Speaker 3:
[13:41] I did not know until after we saw the movie.

Speaker 4:
[13:43] Right.

Speaker 3:
[13:44] That's startling to me.

Speaker 4:
[13:46] Eventually, songs by Taylor Swift's collaborator, Jack Antonoff, written in collaboration with Charli XCX, there's an FKA Twigs song. We might hear from FKA Twigs in a moment. You ended up with this whole sonic world, but when you first started playing the character, you had no idea what she would sound like. You knew what she meant to people. You knew what she had gone through. You had this backstory in your head. What were you imagining up there?

Speaker 2:
[14:15] That's such a good question. Yeah, so there were two tracks. There was Burial.

Speaker 5:
[14:22] This is your burial.

Speaker 2:
[14:33] And there was a demo for a song called Holy Spirit. I went in to see Jack in his recording studio. I got a text from Jack, and he was like, hey, do you want to come in and get a vibe? And I was like, what?

Speaker 5:
[14:50] What are you doing?

Speaker 2:
[14:51] I knew what a vibe was, but I was like, is this a technical, Siri, what's a vibe? I mean, I just like. Rock.

Speaker 4:
[14:58] Urban dictionary, what's a vibe?

Speaker 2:
[15:00] Like I'd never considered a vibe-based art before, you know? Like for me, movie making comes from a very, very different place and acting comes from a very different place. So I was like, get a vibe. And so I went in and we just played, but it was very, very, very loose. And like, I just kind of made these, these sounds that Jack laid into some of the, some of the tracks.

Speaker 3:
[15:24] Like you're finding melodies kind of over.

Speaker 2:
[15:27] Literally trying to figure out what my voice sounds like. And to my horror and dismay, I realized I had no idea how to sing into a microphone because all of my training was on stage. You have a mic and it's not anywhere near, you know, your mouth. So there's so much projection involved and pop music is the opposite. It's, it's effortless power, which is not really my thing. I'm like all about effort.

Speaker 4:
[15:53] No, no, come on.

Speaker 2:
[15:55] Honey, you know me from something. And all the some things I've been a part of, there's been a degree of effort there. Yes, that's like, it's how I've, like, it's how I've built my life is by caring so much. And it's the only thing I really know how to do, really. And so I had so, so Jack's early notes to me were like, hey, can you sound more bored? And then, and I went to him and I was like, Jack, I actually don't know how to do that. Could you have another one? And he goes, okay, can you just like give more heroin?

Speaker 4:
[16:28] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[16:28] And I was like, I have an imagination, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna give that one a go.

Speaker 4:
[16:33] Sure.

Speaker 2:
[16:33] But it took so long for me to, it also it's, and I'm sure you guys have experience with this, when you hear a demo, it's so far from what the final is gonna be. And because I'd never gone through, it's a bit like when you're doing a movie and you see a raw cut, you don't know how to fill in the gaps. You don't know how to jump to the part where it's gone through all the layers and all the filters and all of the extra stuff. And, and so you just panic.

Speaker 3:
[16:58] You also kind of don't know which in that gap, how much of that is on you, how much of that is on Jack, how much of that is on someone you haven't even met.

Speaker 2:
[17:06] And also I'm not the director. So it's not like I can come in there and throw my weight around and say, this is exactly how I want it. I'm actually as far down on the totem pole in terms of the artistic direction for the, and the sonic design for the character as there is. I mean, it's Jack and Charli and David, and they're really the ones having the conversation, and then I'm supposed to come in and execute it. But as we discovered throughout the process, like I kind of need to, I need to immerse myself in it, I need to have a stake in it in order for me to really kind of switch into gear. So anyway, so Jack set me up with a music producer by the name of Cooke and Cooke and I went- Cooke Correll? Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[17:45] I did one of the first profiles of Cooke Correll like 15 years ago.

Speaker 2:
[17:48] Magical human.

Speaker 3:
[17:49] Incredible guy, shout out Cooke. Incredible.

Speaker 4:
[17:52] Justin Bieber.

Speaker 3:
[17:52] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I was in the studio with him and Justin Bieber on like the second Bieber album.

Speaker 2:
[17:58] So I had two days with Cooke to kind of try to figure out her vibe. And I was so scared that I was just gonna like let everybody down, bore everybody, that I wasn't gonna be able to do it. So I had this memory of like giving myself a cute little pep talk. I was gonna go to the studio and I was like, okay, they know who you are. They know that you're an actress. They know all of these things. You're gonna, just go and have fun. Just go and have fun. And I pressed the elevator button. I just went, and my eyes just filled up with tears. And I was so, I mean, I was just so vulnerable. And for the first 10 minutes, I was kind of had like really gnarly energy. And then I just like thought to myself, I'm like, he doesn't know you. This is who he thinks you are. He thinks you're this way all the time. So what you need to do right now is get a grip and have some fun and figure this out. Because if anybody's going to make you good, it's going to be him. So just like, figure it out, Hathaway. So I, in a sense, got my shit together and started to play. And then we played all day in burial and like, we just tried different things. So that approach was kind of really necessary in the beginning was just trying things and not being afraid to fall in your face and understanding that it wasn't, Rome wasn't going to be built in a day.

Speaker 3:
[19:09] I wonder about that style of vocalizing, especially like having been in the studio with Kuk. I know, I imagine the process was similar where it's like you're hitting a line. He's like, hit it this way, but a little bit more expensive. Hit it again, hit it two times in a row. Like, sort of almost trying to denature your brain from the line to encourage a more earthy grounded vocal performance. To forget that you're singing the line, in a sense.

Speaker 2:
[19:34] Yeah. He made me sound as cool as anybody could at that time, but what the session revealed to me was how much work I had to do because I didn't understand anything about placement. I had no breath control. Also, it was revealing a weakness in my singing, which was because I had learned in musical theater where I was used to belting and projecting that I had this break in my voice that I'd never really learned how to climb and how to work through. That took several years to learn how to undo.

Speaker 3:
[20:10] Is pop music vocalization in your mind, having gone through this process, inherently more vulnerable than musical theater vocalization? Because I take your point about standing on stage and shouting to the back seats and making sure that you're heard. But often that's at the cost of subtlety or nuance.

Speaker 2:
[20:30] Absolutely. It just taught me so much about sound and the emotionality of sound and so much of pop music. I feel like musical theater is very lyrics-based, and so it requires a greater degree of diction because you really don't want to lose a word at all. Some of my favorite pop songs, I have no idea what anybody's saying. I know it's not necessarily a pop song, but when Kurt Cobain is saying, all in all is all we are. It doesn't.

Speaker 4:
[21:03] Yeah. It's just- He does it to the point of abstraction.

Speaker 2:
[21:12] Exactly. That's the beauty of pop is that it can go to those abstract places and it gets you to a state by almost seducing the sonic aspects of your brain. Musical theater is something else. It's just, like I said, it's a different type of storytelling, but it's not immersive in that way. There's a presentational quality to it. When I've had to try to explain it to people and what it felt like to me, it's like I was comfortable on a 10-speed bike. I knew how to work the gears on a 10-speed and I felt pretty comfortable and my stamina was good for that. Pop music is like riding the biggest Harley you've ever seen.

Speaker 3:
[21:52] You're about to curse.

Speaker 2:
[21:53] I was!

Speaker 3:
[21:54] I was about to curse.

Speaker 2:
[21:55] I stopped my mother's voice.

Speaker 3:
[21:56] This is safe. It's a safe space. It's a pro-cursing podcast.

Speaker 4:
[21:59] It's a family newspaper but a pro-cursing podcast.

Speaker 2:
[22:02] Okay, well, we'll see if I get chill enough to get there. If I really...

Speaker 3:
[22:06] We're simply providing the space for you.

Speaker 2:
[22:08] This hair that is someone else's but it's mine for today. We'll see if I can really let it down.

Speaker 4:
[22:14] The way you're talking about recording the studio reminds me of some themes from the movie, which I think is very much about sort of deconstructing the idea of pop star as auteur, that this person is all knowing and everything comes from them. And really it's the invisible labor of all these people around them from the beginnings of their career. In the case of Mother Mary, it's Sam, the Michaela Cole character who built that persona with her. Like thinking about the role of pop star versus the role of actress, how do we consider pop stars differently than we consider actresses, even at your caliber or level of experience?

Speaker 2:
[22:59] So, this project has encouraged me to think pretty deeply about that, having now sort of gotten to play in both spaces. And I just felt like, when I finished this, I was like, wow, I am so not a pop star. Like, I really am. No, no, no, no, no, no. The way that I'm made, the way that what I love to do, what I love to do is share what I've gone through, share the secret parts of my soul. I love to do it through a filter. I love to do it through an avatar that I can privately, secretly relate to, and that I have an in with, like into their soul. But I don't have to ever talk about that. And I don't ever have to reveal that. With a pop star, the image that you're putting out is based on yourself. And you're, so you are your own avatar. And I think that for some of the pop stars that I think are doing it better than anybody like Sabrina Carpenter, for example, she is in complete mastery of all of it. You know, I don't think that anything goes on to that stage. I don't think that that doesn't come from her mind. I think that like Taylor Swift, I think it's all self-generated. And that and then she has other people that, you know, execute her. Pink is another one that that like her her work is so personal to her. And yes, there's songwriters and collaborators and all of those things. But really, I feel like with pop stars, the buck stops with them.

Speaker 3:
[24:33] Do you find for you as a listener, knowing something about who those people are for real, the stories have truth value, does that enhance your ability to enjoy the music?

Speaker 2:
[24:45] I find that more, I don't know. That's a really good question. You know, the artists that I was drawn to before this movie, it was more people in the realm of like Bjork and Tori Amos. And I was interested in biographical details, but the music for me was just the whole...

Speaker 3:
[25:07] Hair amount.

Speaker 2:
[25:07] Yeah, that was...

Speaker 4:
[25:08] It's interesting that you frame it that way, because I feel like there's a parallel in Hollywood, which is some actors bring all of their baggage and all of their, all of your preconceived notions about them to every character. And especially over time, Tom Cruise, you love watching Tom Cruise in these movies because he's playing off of his real life persona. I feel like you and your career have been very careful with your real life and with the human, with Annie. And people maybe think they know you, but they don't have a ton to project onto you when they're seeing you in these iconic roles. Unlike a pop star, like, has that been conscious for you, keeping up that wall between who you are on screen and who you are at home?

Speaker 2:
[26:03] So it's funny because I had this amazing thing happen to me right at the gate, which was, I was in a classic movie that a generation pulled into their hearts and never let go of, and we're still in a relationship together almost 30 years later. And that film was The Princess Diaries. And so I don't think of myself in iconic terms, I think about myself the way I've always thought of myself, which is like, I'm an actress. But one of the things that I have had to be aware of since I began was I was given this tremendous gift, which is, I've had legacy since my first film. And I've been so lucky I've been a part of these films that have offered people comfort for now what feels like is going on generations. And I've tried to do my best to respect and protect the legacy of that, while also developing as an artist, while also just being a person who can walk down the street and be just very, very, very normal, as normal as I can.

Speaker 3:
[27:04] I wonder when you look back over this sort of macro-argue, you talk about working with individual directors and interested in executing their vision. But I do see a couple of threads on the type of characters that you tend to be drawn to. Tell me, I don't know that- It seems like it doesn't mean you do have your sort of princess diaries, which I just watched this weekend for the first time. I was a little- I missed it when I came. I just watched it.

Speaker 2:
[27:25] Did you watch it by yourself or with someone?

Speaker 3:
[27:26] I watched it with my girlfriend.

Speaker 2:
[27:27] Okay. Had she seen it before?

Speaker 3:
[27:29] Yeah, it was huge for her, huge for her. It was between Disney periods for me.

Speaker 2:
[27:34] I understand. I completely understand that.

Speaker 3:
[27:36] I had stopped watching it as a young person, but hadn't quite gotten back into it for work.

Speaker 2:
[27:40] I'm like that with Pokemon. Pokemon happened right after and now my kids are upset.

Speaker 4:
[27:45] Now you have sons. Now you have all of them.

Speaker 3:
[27:48] So you have Princess Diaries and I would say Original Devil Wears Prada, young woman, new to the world, getting exposed to a lot of things, systems imposed upon that person and saying, actually what you need is rigor, actually what you need is to be less dynamic. You have to be, you have to keep it tight. And then the characters arc through going to that place and then also finding the softness on the other side once you hit the peak. And then maybe in the other direction, Mother Mary, I find the intern quite charming of a very stitched together character who needs to learn to be unstitched together or to find that softness or uncertainty within. And that dynamic, you do seem drawn to it. And I wonder if that registers for you at all.

Speaker 2:
[28:41] So funny enough, what's registering for me hearing this, and those are, that's a very astute assessment of all of those characters. And maybe I'm thinking about it now because it's 20 years later, and the second Devil Wears Prada is about to come out. But when the first Devil Wears Prada came out, it was so huge, and I had that thing that happens, where suddenly you're getting sent a bunch of scripts, and you're like, oh, these are all the same character.

Speaker 3:
[29:07] It's all that person.

Speaker 2:
[29:08] And I just remember, and I was 24 years old, I think, and I just remember thinking to myself, that's the way you are seen. That is what you have to resist right now.

Speaker 3:
[29:19] Interesting.

Speaker 2:
[29:20] And so I actually chose not to perceive. I actually did walk away from that because I thought, if you do that, you'll have a really wonderful career for a few years.

Speaker 3:
[29:31] Predictable, one-note career, doing the same thing.

Speaker 2:
[29:34] Yeah. And you'll have a great time and you'll make the movies that... But I also saw that it could be a case of diminishing returns because I got so lucky with those two, they were such high watermarks that I thought if I make other ones and they're sort of the ersatz version of that, how am I going to feel? So I thought, okay, we're going to press the, we're going to engage the full break system.

Speaker 3:
[29:57] Sure.

Speaker 2:
[29:58] And you're just going to focus on directors. That's it.

Speaker 3:
[30:03] Get broke back.

Speaker 4:
[30:04] You mentioned Ang Lee.

Speaker 2:
[30:05] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[30:05] You do Rachel Getting Married.

Speaker 2:
[30:07] Jonathan Demme. And then here's the thing. And this is one of the reasons why I feel so drawn to David Lowery as an artist is you realize that like, okay, maybe my sensibility is more India tour, but I also want to leave the lights on. I also want to respect the legacy. I don't want to confuse people. So every few years you're like, it's probably time to do a Valentine's Day, or it's probably time to do some kind of feel good comedy. And so for the periods of my career where I've had choice in the matter and that hasn't been consistent, like there's times where like you have a greater degree of maneuverability and choice and clout and power and all that stuff. And then there's times where you're like, oh, I just need to like, I need to work right now. And I need to kind of try to keep some semblance of momentum going until hopefully there'll be another moment. But we'll see, because you're an actor and you never know. Precarious, precarious. So, and so when I really went back into that type of character that you're talking about, someone that has the... You said it so beautifully, I can't believe I can't remember it.

Speaker 3:
[31:10] Me too.

Speaker 2:
[31:12] But it was something about the systems, like confronting systems?

Speaker 3:
[31:15] Yeah, that sort of systems are sort of delineating what your boundaries can be keeping, forcing you to stay tight.

Speaker 2:
[31:21] So when I read the script for The Idea of You, I thought, oh my gosh, this is one of those again. This is exactly that very smart thing that you just said. And also there's a magic closet.

Speaker 4:
[31:33] It's a little bit of both, actually. I feel like The Idea of You has elements of pop and India tour.

Speaker 2:
[31:43] And I got to work with Michael Showalter, who is so both of those things. And that was when I felt like I kind of stepped back and was like, okay, I'm ready for whatever comes with all of that, whatever comes with the pop, whatever comes with the, we really do need a global audience for this movie to be a hit. If that comes with it now, I feel like I'm ready for that. Before then, I was like, I'm not ready as a person, I'm not ready as an artist, I need to develop more if otherwise I'm just gonna get eaten alive.

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 6:
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Speaker 4:
[33:52] In coming back to these iconic characters, The Devil Wears Prada 2, Princess Diaries 3 in the works potentially, did you have any reservations about playing the hits as it were? Or is it the Mother Marys and the other Indie Out Tour collaborations you have coming up that sort of allow you to do both?

Speaker 2:
[34:17] We're all on the backside of 40. Have you turned 40 yet? Not yet.

Speaker 3:
[34:23] I told you it's an age gap podcast. It's a real age gap podcast.

Speaker 2:
[34:26] I was joking because you were writing a sub sack in the 2000s. When do you turn? Wait, you were just precocious.

Speaker 3:
[34:33] Yes.

Speaker 4:
[34:35] I'll be 38 in August.

Speaker 2:
[34:36] Oh my God. OK. Thank you. Well, I'm 41.

Speaker 3:
[34:39] And I'll be 34 in October. So that's great.

Speaker 2:
[34:41] I'm 43 and I also have gray hair. And I'm getting prematurely aged by Anne Hathaway.

Speaker 4:
[34:50] That's incredible.

Speaker 3:
[34:52] Really incredible. No notes. No notes. Please. I'll shut up now.

Speaker 2:
[34:58] So seeing as how two of us are on the backside of 40 and you may discover this whippersnapper.

Speaker 3:
[35:08] Not as good as 50.

Speaker 2:
[35:09] Being five whole years older than you. No, I just don't care anymore about that kind of stuff. I just don't. I'm really into the joy of it. And I feel like I'm very lucky. And also I'm so shocked by it. I did not expect this. I kind of thought that I was in the small weird indie section of my career. I definitely have been making films like Eileen. I made a small film with one of my dearest friends, Jessica Chastain, called Mother's Instinct. And I made another, a wonderful Rebecca Miller movie called She Came to Me. And the thing about it, it's so fun to be on these press tours where people, there's so much built in awareness of your film, because on those, you're like beating the drum. You're like, hey, remember me? Well, I made a new one. It's in theaters, theaters. In a room.

Speaker 4:
[36:06] It's at Angelica Film Center.

Speaker 2:
[36:07] You should go to see it. It's at the IFC. And so I kind of thought that was where I was going to live. And so I'm actually pretty delighted that somebody's asked me to come back and basically like do the equivalent of a stadium tour and play the hits.

Speaker 4:
[36:23] Right, your era's tour.

Speaker 3:
[36:24] Yeah, I just was thinking the same thing.

Speaker 2:
[36:26] Well, and because I got to, because I went off and I did my weird thing and I followed all of those instincts, I appreciate in a way that I couldn't have when I was so young, actually the artistry of the hits. Like there's a reason why they're beloved, they're really, really good.

Speaker 3:
[36:44] And why they're durable.

Speaker 2:
[36:45] Devil Wears Prada is a wonderful movie.

Speaker 4:
[36:48] It's really hard to write anti-hero.

Speaker 2:
[36:50] It's really hard to write blank space, you know? And it shouldn't get dinged because we've listened to it like several thousand times.

Speaker 4:
[36:59] It's also coinciding with this sort of amazing moment in your career arc in which like you're among the most beloved people on the internet. Like I...

Speaker 2:
[37:12] No, sorry, plot twist.

Speaker 3:
[37:14] Yeah, yeah. But like the names are in your favor. The names are in your favor.

Speaker 2:
[37:18] For now.

Speaker 3:
[37:20] It can happen. It can come for any of us.

Speaker 2:
[37:22] Oh, I know.

Speaker 4:
[37:23] Like, does that register, like, did you register that shift? Like, are you like, oh, all of a sudden, like, huh. Like...

Speaker 3:
[37:34] Mother's back.

Speaker 4:
[37:34] Yeah, mother's back. Like...

Speaker 2:
[37:37] I love that. I love... I do appreciate the mother thing.

Speaker 4:
[37:41] Have you allowed yourself to feel the good side having been on the other side of it at various moments?

Speaker 2:
[37:47] I don't know what you're referring to. Um, I think that the, the, I'm, I'm relieved that I don't have to deal with the bad side for now. But I do think that what both have taught me is it's probably best to have a certain level of detachment from all of that. And just like I said, appreciate it when it's good because it just means that you don't have bombs going off. But understand that like it's, it's a thing. It can change, who knows, but for now, it's nice. When it's good, it brings a greater degree of peace to what you do.

Speaker 3:
[38:23] Has it made you a sort of not unwilling, but unintended mentor when other people are going through internet drama? Do you kind of like put an arm around them and say, been there, here's how it's going to go, here's how you're going to get out the other side?

Speaker 2:
[38:39] I just, not necessarily specifically about internet drama, but I just think being a wizened 43 year old, you'll get there. Sorry, sorry.

Speaker 3:
[38:49] It's going to be a while. I'm good.

Speaker 2:
[38:51] Oh, but you're going to have the most epic birthday party.

Speaker 3:
[38:53] He doesn't like birthday parties. I'm going to throw him a surprise one.

Speaker 2:
[38:56] That's what I like. I'm actually like intuiting all of this. I'm like, he's going to celebrate you so beautifully. I know I've known you guys for 27 minutes, but I'm calling this. You're not wrong.

Speaker 3:
[39:07] Yeah, you're not wrong at all.

Speaker 2:
[39:08] And you're going to just have to feel that way. The whole night.

Speaker 3:
[39:14] It's like a threat. It's like I'm threatening him.

Speaker 2:
[39:18] When's your birthday?

Speaker 4:
[39:19] August 1st. I'm a Leo. But no, I haven't had a birthday party since I was 13.

Speaker 3:
[39:23] And I have a birthday party every year.

Speaker 2:
[39:27] You've been saving it up. You cash it in, which I appreciate.

Speaker 3:
[39:31] Those photos are priceless.

Speaker 2:
[39:32] And when's your birthday?

Speaker 3:
[39:32] It's October 12th. I'm a Libra.

Speaker 2:
[39:34] Okay. I'm a Scorpio. I'm November 12th. But all of my other things are Libra.

Speaker 3:
[39:41] It's a great place to be, a great place to live. I recommend it for everybody.

Speaker 4:
[39:44] That was a really good pivot she did to talking about herself, to talking about us.

Speaker 3:
[39:48] Yeah, it's good.

Speaker 4:
[39:49] You're a skilled conversationalist.

Speaker 2:
[39:51] Well, it happened eventually, but...

Speaker 4:
[39:54] Have you been surprised at the level to which Anna Wintour and Vogue are embracing The Devil Wears Prada this time around, given that it wasn't really that way?

Speaker 2:
[40:07] Well, I have to give credit to Anna, round one, she got the joke immediately. And as soon as she saw it and saw what Meryl had did and saw what David had did, she really just kind of, she was just great about it. You know, she showed up, we had a screening on the first film to benefit Dress for Success, and she showed up wearing Prada. I mean, that is like the most baller move. And as the years have kind of gone on, she and I have developed a personal relationship. She has a personal relationship. I think she has a relationship with everybody in the cast now. So it just kind of, it just feels like, it feels like friends now.

Speaker 3:
[40:47] I also think it speaks to, you know, it's interesting to think about the last, I want to say 10, but it's really like five or six years of the internet where I think when I first found Joe's Tumblr, there was this sense that like the internet is a thing that exists separate from the real world. And now I think we just accept that something happened and that enthusiasm for The Devil Wears Prada on the internet actually means enthusiasm in the real world for The Devil Wears Prada.

Speaker 2:
[41:10] And they're talking to each other.

Speaker 3:
[41:11] And so the sort of the Vogue cover where they're sort of breaking the fourth wall and saying the other, it feels like the loudest implicit acknowledgement of the absolutely destroyed border between IRL and URL.

Speaker 2:
[41:25] I also think that there's something so cool about two 76 year old grandmothers on the cover of like the most relevant, how are full fashion magazine on the planet.

Speaker 4:
[41:38] The only relevant magazine on the planet. Some might say.

Speaker 2:
[41:42] And I think that there's a degree of that, which is there's something so unexpected, unpredictable, but really defiant about this movie. Like, you know, like, like watching, I got to stand next to Meryl on this press story that we've just done around the world. And watching Meryl, like, arrive at her just full bloom movie star at this stage of her life is so moving and beautiful watching the fans just, I mean, thousands of fans everywhere went just like lose their minds for her and knowing that she's headlining a movie that hopefully will be one of the biggest movies of the year. And that it's starring her and it's about a 76 year old. And it's just like everything about it makes me very happy and hopeful. And just because I realized it didn't answer your question before about, you know, do I kind of put an arm around people, not necessarily about just internet things, but just young people in general. Like when I started, I was always the youngest person on set and now I'm kind of like more of a veteran. And so I try to look out for the kids. And I just, I can, I'm just so happy that I can say to them, just outlast it. Just focus on your work, just outlast it, keep your chin up.

Speaker 3:
[42:56] You're still here.

Speaker 2:
[42:57] You're still here. And the thing that's very important to remember about all of that noise is you can turn your phone off and you can go for a walk in the park.

Speaker 3:
[43:07] Can you show us?

Speaker 2:
[43:08] There's a button.

Speaker 4:
[43:11] Salute to you. So we have a very special guest on Popcast today. We are going to be joined by your co-star in the film, FKA Twigs. So let's welcome Twigs to the podcast.

Speaker 2:
[43:25] All rise, Twigs.

Speaker 4:
[43:28] Actor, dancer, multi-disciplinary, auto-didact and the songwriter behind one of Mother Mary's hits, FKA Twigs. Welcome to Popcast.

Speaker 5:
[43:39] Thank you for having me.

Speaker 4:
[43:40] Thanks for being here. So you two appear together in this movie, Twigs. You play a, let's say, supernatural seer. You both do a bit of experimental dance. That feels, that's separate, but feels very much in dialogue with one another. And then you wrote a song that Anne sings as Mother Mary. How did you come to this world and what was it like to sort of have this symbiotic relationship where you're stepping into your acting and Anne is stepping into her pop diva?

Speaker 5:
[44:17] Yeah, I mean, for me, it was very quick and dirty, actually. I kind of got a phone call from my agent saying David wanted me to be in the film. And I think it was literally shooting in two weeks. I read the script. I loved it. I love your work. I love Michaela's work. So it was a no brainer. And so, yeah, two weeks later, I was pretty much in Germany. And as soon as I arrived, the energy felt really potent. And I felt like, wow, something's really going down here. But I was able to slot right in. It just felt that there was so much focus and magic in the air.

Speaker 3:
[44:53] Can you talk more about this potent energy on set? Because I'm going to assume not every film set has this particular valence.

Speaker 2:
[45:02] The word that keeps coming up for me when I think about this experience was it was so poetic. You know, and sometimes film sets can feel regimented. You know, you have to get the shot by this time in order to get to lunch because this is going to happen. And because we were in one location, there was such a discovery process to how we were going to shoot it. David had it in his mind. He had so many of the big pieces that were there. But so much of it, I don't know, we just we kind of burrowed into the work. The writing was so rich and dense. And Michaela is such a vivid and brilliant performer. So it just kept opening to us. But there is this crazy energy. I mean, the movie is about the kind of supernatural, psychospiritual connection that we have. I mean, how about the fact that you guys were reading each other's work 20 years ago? Spooky action.

Speaker 3:
[45:58] There you go.

Speaker 2:
[45:59] You know, there's something to that. There's some kind of magic there. And I think making a film about that magic, started to manifest itself in all of our lives. Like, before I knew that Twigs was going to be in the movie, her music became so important to informing my character's movement. You know, I was in the dance studio listening to you for eight hours a day. And then all of a sudden you were there and we had this beautiful connection through our characters. And so that felt spooky.

Speaker 4:
[46:27] I mean, you literally made an album called Mary Magdalene. It's very, very of a piece with what's going on in this film. Twig, what was your relationship with Anne's work before this? Do you have a favorite Anne Hathaway role or film?

Speaker 2:
[46:40] Are you a Secret Princess Diaries fan?

Speaker 5:
[46:41] Let's go. I mean, I think obviously you started so young. So, you know, for me, you're an icon. Like I grew up on you. I grew up on your movies. I grew up watching you. And for me, when I think of your generation of stars and talents, it has such a lore and such mystery and such like focus around the craft. Like seeing you're working like Les Mis and you did like an amazing film with it's like about a spaceship.

Speaker 2:
[47:16] Interstellar?

Speaker 5:
[47:17] Yeah, Interstellar. And like your role in that was so beautiful. So, yeah, I just have always thought that you're a huge talent and so chic and have kept everything very snatched coming from you.

Speaker 2:
[47:33] No, I was sitting here on this. I think like for you to say that I'm like, well, then you're the icon's icon.

Speaker 5:
[47:38] I know it doesn't always feel like that when you're on the inside of it. But from the outside, it feels like pretty flawless.

Speaker 2:
[47:45] Well, thank you, Twigs. Gosh, my confidence is through the roof right now.

Speaker 3:
[47:50] Great time to talk about dance and motion. Obviously, Twigs, dance and movement is central to what you do outside of this film. And there is movement in this film, for sure. Were you guys present for each other's big movement sequences?

Speaker 5:
[48:09] Well, you were present for mine.

Speaker 2:
[48:10] Yes, I was present for yours. And I was very excited to go to work that day and watch Twigs be possessed by a spirit.

Speaker 4:
[48:21] Yeah, talk about the influence from your quiver of moves that you were bringing to this choreography for this film, because I do feel like Anne, your big dance in the film is related in terms of the possession of it.

Speaker 2:
[48:38] Yes. I think this would be a great time to shout out Danny Vitale.

Speaker 4:
[48:40] Yeah, tell us about Danny, the choreographer on this.

Speaker 5:
[48:43] Well, I think in my section, it wasn't really so much like choreography. It was more like a pathway and a feeling. And I worked with Danny and David came in as well, just like the day before. I mean, like I said, my experience is very quick and dirty. I kind of came in. We went in the studio for about half an hour and sort of mapped some stuff out. But actually, there's another part of my dance training and it's like crumping. So when I was like very young, we're talking like 1920, I was in like a dance crew called Wet Wipes, like one of the baby members. And crumping, for me, it's about telling a story. And there are these moves like there's stomps and you bark and it's like this story and the way the energy flows through your body. So coming back to Mother Mary, I used like the crump stomp to like start the spirit. So I was really like trying to think of like the way that your body can show, I guess, something aggressive but very emotional and then that can become very fragile.

Speaker 4:
[49:57] Tell about that juxtaposition.

Speaker 5:
[49:58] Yeah, and it's like that sometimes I just have these like different movements, studies in my head and then I'll call upon them for the character. You know, so I don't know why, but for Imogen, like it was crump. It was like this feeling of this aggression because for me, the character was not even personifying spirit. It was the personification of sadness, but as particular sadness of when you've hurt somebody. It's like this sorrow and this pain, but this regret and hurting because you think you're bad.

Speaker 4:
[50:37] The level of craft on this, as you've said, is so high in this small cast. What did you see in Twigs as an actress, as opposed to as a dancer and as a performer?

Speaker 2:
[50:49] I was just amazed by your range and you have the thing that you can't teach, which is fearlessness. It's really something to come onto a set where everybody knows each other and to have to begin with a scene that really, where you're so much of the driving energy of. You really have to have a fearlessness to it. I also just love to have repaired you were. When you said, I hope it's okay to mention this, that you mentioned you had worked with an acting coach coming in. I was just like, not that I have an idea of how someone in your position would behave, but I just love the humility of not just wanting to show up and just be like, yeah, whatever I do is going to be great, but you actually wanted to focus on the craft of it and the art of it. That was really, really impressive to me.

Speaker 4:
[51:43] The last thing we wanted to get from the two of you is a little bit of talk about My Mouth Is Lonely For You, the twig song from the film sung by Anne Hathaway, as Mother Mary. How did that come to work for this movie? Is that something you'd been working on previously or was it written with Anne in mind?

Speaker 5:
[52:03] Yeah, it was a song that I had had. I went to Big Sur when I was finishing You Sex You Are and My Mouth Is Lonely For You was a song from that time. And I really loved it. But sometimes things aren't for me and I didn't know why it was. But it's something I'd always come back to and I loved the concept of the song, of putting all these things that aren't good in your mouth, like cigarettes and bad words. You know, the things that you fill your mouth with actually when you miss somebody. So, yeah, David was like, I need some songs, like I'm kind of working on this thing. And I sent him a few bits, and he just really loved that one. And I was like, okay, have it.

Speaker 4:
[52:56] And Anne, how is it different to sing a twig song versus a Charli XCX song?

Speaker 2:
[53:00] Well, first of all, I have to say I got married in Big Sur.

Speaker 5:
[53:03] Oh, wow.

Speaker 2:
[53:05] Spooky action. You know, the songs themselves were very different. I found that with twigs, I mean, the thing about it is I had to be Mother Mary for both of them. So I was kind of focused on how I could make them similar. But with your song, it was so much fun figuring out which words got like, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, you know, like kind of like, and the kind of like the relationship between the punch and the flow. And then the back half, which did not make it into the final production, I didn't realize like, they do a password like, just do things that you come up with. And the first time I recorded it, I had no idea what they meant. And so I was like, yeah. I want to be a V. Put your hands up. Yes, wait, wait, there's a technical term for it.

Speaker 5:
[54:08] Let's say backing vocals.

Speaker 2:
[54:10] And now I know BVs are fun. But the thing, and the reason that I wanted to bring it up now is just to be like, your music is so fun. Like it was, you know, obviously intimidating to hear you do the demo. And because you're like such a gorgeous vocalist and there's just nobody who has your voice except for you. And so I was like, it's intimidating to be like, how can I make this Mother Mary's? But then when it opened up and just into the music, I was so happy because getting to just be completely immersed in the music that you wrote and getting to play with it was truly one of the most fun times that I had in the studio.

Speaker 5:
[54:48] Oh, that's so good. I mean, I think I've worked with this amazing choreographer recently, her name's Sharon Ayal, and her work is on mostly trained dances, and their relevé is so high, and all these dances have sway legs, so they've got really straight legs and really high relevé. I worked with her and I went in and I was stressing out so much because I was like, I don't have that. She said to me, she was like, you might not have all the perfect technique, but you have total feeling. And that's how I felt like watching you doing the dance routine in Mother Mary. And that's how I feel when you sing the songs, it's like because it's total feeling.

Speaker 2:
[55:30] That's all I had to offer.

Speaker 5:
[55:31] Yeah. So I hope that. Thank you.

Speaker 2:
[55:34] That means so, so, so much. Thank you.

Speaker 4:
[55:38] Twigs, thank you so much for joining us today. We're going to come back with a few more minutes with Anne. All right. We are back with Anne Hathaway. Anne, we can't let you leave before you hit a couple of questions in the Popcast lightning round.

Speaker 5:
[55:55] All right.

Speaker 4:
[55:55] And then we eat a snack. First, you will draw a card from our deck.

Speaker 5:
[55:59] Okay.

Speaker 4:
[55:59] Each card corresponds to a pre-written question. Some are fun, some are deep, some are both. So take your pick.

Speaker 3:
[56:05] Hopefully none or neither.

Speaker 2:
[56:07] Okay. I got the Eight of Diamonds.

Speaker 3:
[56:11] All right. Eight of Diamonds. This is actually, it's a good question. What is your weekly screen time on your phone?

Speaker 2:
[56:18] My weekly?

Speaker 3:
[56:19] Or daily?

Speaker 2:
[56:21] Daily is like three hours, 40 minutes.

Speaker 4:
[56:25] Pretty good.

Speaker 3:
[56:25] That's actually not bad. That's not, I mean, That seems very healthy. I mean, mine is like nine hours.

Speaker 4:
[56:30] I like that you knew also.

Speaker 2:
[56:31] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I haven't looked in a while, but like, you know, and also like it kind of fluctuates, like when I'm on set, it's less.

Speaker 4:
[56:37] Sure.

Speaker 2:
[56:39] But I just, I like that, yeah, I'm not always there when it pops up, but when I do, I think, I think like the three is, it is higher than that, I think, than I get like a little like, what did I do? Like, I'm only awake for this many hours a day and I have children. What am I up to?

Speaker 3:
[56:54] Traumatic to have a number as high as mine, but yeah.

Speaker 4:
[56:57] Pull another card.

Speaker 2:
[56:58] Oh, sorry. No, I was gonna say, I know somebody who has higher. Great. So, so you're not.

Speaker 3:
[57:05] The two of us can go to therapy together.

Speaker 4:
[57:08] Pull another card.

Speaker 2:
[57:08] All right. Um, 10 of, oh, I never know what this one's called. Are these clubs?

Speaker 3:
[57:15] Those are spades.

Speaker 4:
[57:17] This is the main takeaway from doing this, is that celebrities don't know cards anymore.

Speaker 2:
[57:21] No, no, no, the ones that play are like professional. Professional poker players. But okay, so, okay, I know the diamonds and I know the hearts, obviously.

Speaker 4:
[57:31] Those are spades. Then it's clubs and spades.

Speaker 3:
[57:33] Clubs and spades.

Speaker 2:
[57:34] So the club is the clover.

Speaker 3:
[57:35] Yes.

Speaker 4:
[57:35] Correct. Which the spade looks like the gardening tool.

Speaker 3:
[57:38] Like the gardening tool, yeah. Okay, tennis spades. Is this actually kind of-

Speaker 2:
[57:42] I'm just trying to remember that now. I'm like, that's a good one.

Speaker 3:
[57:44] Gardening tool. It's truly, you're not the first person to have had that specific trip up. Shocking to us. This is a little press questionnaire, dare I say. Which of your senses would you choose to live without?

Speaker 2:
[57:57] Which of my sentences?

Speaker 3:
[57:58] Senses.

Speaker 2:
[58:00] Oh, if I was like, sentences, I mean, that's-

Speaker 3:
[58:02] No, but I'm also curious about which sentences you'd like to yeet out into the space.

Speaker 2:
[58:08] I have to be honest. I do love Prussian questionnaires, and this one stresses me out. This is a stressful question. I think because what I do for a living, like I live by my senses. If I lost taste, would I be able to retain smell? Would it be impacted at all?

Speaker 4:
[58:30] I think you're losing your smell would impact your taste, but I think losing your taste would not impact your smell. I don't know.

Speaker 2:
[58:36] It would be devastating, but I would lose taste.

Speaker 4:
[58:44] So you would do without food before you would do without perfume, say. I know you're on those perfume riots.

Speaker 2:
[58:51] I would. It's just because I'm a mom. Like the smell of my children. You know, like when my oldest was born, I have this very, very distinct core memory of like that magic baby smell. And it really truly I remember thinking, oh, this is heaven and I'm not a great cook. So maybe if I was more talented in the kitchen, I would feel differently about that. I would truly miss the pleasure of eating wonderful food. The truth is that like I'm coming off of three years of being Mother Mary where I had to restrict my eating. So like I already kind of do that when I need to for work. So I know I can live without it. I would be so sad if I if I lost my sight. I would I would be okay. So okay. This is maybe too much information. I was half blind for 10 years, which 10 30 to 40.

Speaker 3:
[59:50] How does that happen? And then how does it go away?

Speaker 2:
[59:52] I had an early onset cataract.

Speaker 3:
[59:54] Really?

Speaker 2:
[59:54] And it affected my impact. It impacted my vision so much that I was basically legally blind out of my left eye. And I wound up getting surgery and I didn't realize how bad it had gotten until I could finally see like the full spectrum. And I've calmed down since that I didn't realize it was actually taxing my nervous system.

Speaker 4:
[60:17] Sounds like it would.

Speaker 2:
[60:19] It did. Maybe it wouldn't for everybody, but it definitely didn't for me.

Speaker 3:
[60:21] Well, you're sort of in this constant state of imperfection.

Speaker 2:
[60:23] Was that a TMI?

Speaker 4:
[60:25] That was a really good TMI.

Speaker 3:
[60:26] Okay.

Speaker 4:
[60:27] Did you break news on Popcast?

Speaker 2:
[60:29] I might have just done that. I usually keep those. So, anyway, so I'm sorry. You're ready for me to move on to the next question?

Speaker 4:
[60:35] Look, we would love you to stay as long as Buckley.

Speaker 2:
[60:37] Okay, I love to stay as a love touch. I appreciate vision because I literally feel like every day I wake up and I get to see the way that I do. It's a miracle. Like I actually am like, oh, two generations back, that wouldn't have been an option for someone like me. So I actually do feel very connected to that kind of a miracle.

Speaker 4:
[60:54] All right, pull one more. Okay.

Speaker 2:
[60:57] This one looks promising.

Speaker 3:
[60:58] You've gotten off easy. These have been easy questions. There are hard questions.

Speaker 2:
[61:02] Let's see if it continues. Five of Diamonds.

Speaker 3:
[61:04] See? Yeah, this is easy. None of you dodged. Do you rolled in between them?

Speaker 2:
[61:09] What's the toughest question?

Speaker 3:
[61:11] You want to just skip right to the toughest question?

Speaker 2:
[61:12] I want to do both. I want to do the easy one and then I do want to do the tough question.

Speaker 3:
[61:16] Five of Diamonds is, whose social media page do you spend too much time on?

Speaker 2:
[61:21] I am not on social media.

Speaker 3:
[61:22] See?

Speaker 4:
[61:23] Moving on.

Speaker 2:
[61:24] But the answer would be my own.

Speaker 4:
[61:28] Good answer.

Speaker 3:
[61:29] OK, there are a handful of, I would say, tough questions, but my eyes are following on this one. And I think that there...

Speaker 4:
[61:37] He's never revealed a lot about himself by what he chooses as the top of his question.

Speaker 3:
[61:41] First of all, all journalism is autobiography. All criticism is autobiography. Kids remember that. What kind of first impression do you think you make?

Speaker 2:
[61:52] That's an excellent question.

Speaker 3:
[61:54] We did write that.

Speaker 2:
[61:58] I think that there's been growth in that respect because I think that I used to be a very fear-based person and I think that when I used to meet people, I probably projected a sense of awkwardness and something's happened.

Speaker 4:
[62:14] I'm sorry to keep doing this to you.

Speaker 2:
[62:16] But something happened when I turned 40.

Speaker 3:
[62:19] I let him know what he's in for. I look forward to all of this.

Speaker 2:
[62:22] I just realized I was living my life like it was a dress rehearsal. Actually, it was showtime and I just outgrew my awkwardness like that because I was no longer interested in that feeling. I'm like, okay, babe, we have explored this. I don't know that anybody's ever had an awkward phase that's lasted quite this long. Not to sound cheesy, but just rejoice in the person before you. I use the word miracle a lot, but it's so crazy that we're here. It's such a gift. Just focus on them, just focus on the pleasure of meeting a new person. It opened up. I don't know. I think I present a chill-friendly vibe now.

Speaker 3:
[63:12] But not always, but you've evolved to that.

Speaker 2:
[63:15] No, this is in the last handful of years that that's happened. I had an overcharged electric fence protection system, and I'm not so interested in that anymore, so I've done a lot of work to dismantle that or to keep it in the back for more appropriate interactions.

Speaker 3:
[63:38] Every episode of Popcast, we eat a snack, we rate it one through 10. Joe, what do we have?

Speaker 4:
[63:43] Anne Hathaway picked probably the greatest snack on the table, the original bag of mermaid poo.

Speaker 3:
[63:50] What's the origin of this?

Speaker 4:
[63:52] I have no idea where it came from.

Speaker 2:
[63:53] Let me see the original. It's not that non-pop for me.

Speaker 3:
[63:55] No, no, no.

Speaker 4:
[63:57] The original bag of poo, TM. This is blueberry-flavored cotton candy.

Speaker 2:
[64:01] We're in the shit now, my friends.

Speaker 3:
[64:02] Mermaid poo.

Speaker 4:
[64:04] We're going to take a bite. We're going to rank it out of 10. While we do, you're going to tell me your hopes for the next of these playoffs.

Speaker 3:
[64:11] Oh, wow.

Speaker 2:
[64:13] The way my stomach just did a flip flop, because my hopes are high. I love, I love, love, love our guys. So I just hope that they remember who they are, and that they play as their finest selves, because when they do that, they are unbeatable.

Speaker 4:
[64:30] You will catch OG and Anoby if he falls.

Speaker 3:
[64:33] OG gets in the passing lane, the cross-court pass.

Speaker 6:
[64:36] That's how you should defend that.

Speaker 4:
[64:37] Whoa, he's saying.

Speaker 5:
[64:40] Always got you, OG.

Speaker 2:
[64:43] And then I, you know, and also I hope that I get to go to a game. I was out of town for the entirety of the last playoff. So it would be very cool to get to go to a game.

Speaker 4:
[64:51] This is cotton candy.

Speaker 2:
[64:52] It's sounding it straightforward.

Speaker 3:
[64:53] The smell was promising, but I just did...

Speaker 4:
[64:56] It's cotton candy.

Speaker 2:
[64:57] Ooh, hold on, no, no, no, it goes weird.

Speaker 3:
[64:58] It's melting in the next game. It has a charred aftertaste on the melt.

Speaker 2:
[65:03] 100%.

Speaker 4:
[65:04] You guys are crazy. It's cotton candy is cotton candy. 10 out of 10.

Speaker 2:
[65:08] 10 out of 10 opening, but then it goes to a four.

Speaker 4:
[65:12] Wow.

Speaker 3:
[65:13] I gotta be honest. I'm right there with you. It's a five. It's fine, but there is a...

Speaker 4:
[65:20] You had better cotton candy.

Speaker 3:
[65:22] There's a bizarre kick that should not be there.

Speaker 2:
[65:25] 100%. And maybe...

Speaker 3:
[65:26] That's the poo.

Speaker 2:
[65:27] Maybe that's what keeps it honest. I was just gonna say it knows what it is. Maybe we're wanting it to be something. It told us. It's trademarked.

Speaker 3:
[65:33] Who among us doesn't want to be something that sometimes we're not? Real talk, Anne Hathaway. What a joy to have you on Popcast.

Speaker 2:
[65:42] Thank you so much.

Speaker 3:
[65:42] Thank you for being here. Thank you for being a game. Thanks to FKA twigs for being here. Every episode of Popcast is at youtube.com/popcast, nytimes.com/popcast. Subscribe, like, we're on Instagram, TikTok. We're on your parents' phones. Go find us. We'll be back next week.

Speaker 2:
[66:02] Thanks, fellas.

Speaker 3:
[66:14] Are you fans of any of the musicians on the wall? One of our best interviews.

Speaker 2:
[66:18] A few years ago, I was invited to go to a career retrospective of Penelope Cruz at MoMA. And Penelope, when I saw her later, she was like, what are you doing here?

Speaker 1:
[66:27] She's like, who invited you?

Speaker 2:
[66:29] I love you, that's why I'm here. But Rosalia was one of the people who presented to her. And she got up and she was like, Penelope, Penelope, do you remember when we were on this film? And we sat around and we told stories. And you remember when we did this? And you remember when we would sing that song? And then she started to sing and the entire room just went, What? And just pin drop, time stopped, all of it. And then she stopped and she goes, Do you remember that?