transcript
Speaker 1:
[00:00] This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Spring always feels like a reset. Clearing things out, simplifying what you don't need.
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Speaker 3:
[00:41] I'm Wesley Morris, and this is Cannonball Today. Zendaya and The Drama, yet another movie with a black woman in a thang with a white man, where nobody wants to talk about the thing or the thang. I love Zendaya, I love her, she is extremely charismatic, she is just fun to watch, she has a great laugh, she can be extremely dramatic when necessary. There's something about her eyes when they go dark, there's something about her eyes when they go bright. There is a soul in this person, and her potential is off the charts. Euphoria is back right now. I am excited that that show has returned for its last season, because she's given one of the best performances I've ever seen on TV. But the movies have not responded to how good she is on that show with material that is worthy of her. Challengers, Malcolm and Marie. She's got a bunch of films coming out in 2026. There's another Dune movie, another Spider-Man movie. She's going to be in Christopher Nolan's Odyssey. And right now, out for a month, The Drama, an almost good use of Zendaya. The premise here is that two people are getting married and one night people start talking about the worst thing they did. And she says what hers is. And everybody freaks out about what it is. Therefore, the movie goes from being this kind of interesting movie about two people on their wedding weekend getting ready to spend the rest of their lives with each other to Robert Pattinson's character, he's her fiance, freaking out about what she's divulged. Not a great use of Zendaya. And I think part of the thing that like limits what she can do in the drama is that it is fundamentally afraid of the thing it's really about, which is a black woman marrying a white man. You know, this freak out to me that Robert Pattinson has feels very racialized. He's marrying a black woman who expressed some violent thoughts and he can't handle them. And in his freaking out, this leaves her on the sidelines, trying to convince him that what she did was in the past, she didn't really do it, and he should calm down a little bit. This movie could have been an opportunity to really talk about what psychologically is going on for these characters, what led her to do the thing that she says she thought about doing as a girl, and why is this Robert Pattinson character freaking out about it 15 years later? She seems fine now, or is she fine? So there's a way in which the film is kind of playing games with us, but there's a way in which the film also doesn't know what it's dealing with in having cast to start with this black woman as the star of its movie. My guest today is Gina Cherelus. She covers lifestyle and culture for The Times, and part of that coverage is her writing about and thinking about dating. She has seen the drama, she's got some observations about what might be going on with us right now.
Speaker 4:
[04:26] Hi.
Speaker 3:
[04:26] Welcome to Cannonball.
Speaker 4:
[04:28] Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3:
[04:35] Okay, you're here today, because I would love to talk to you about the drama and interracial relationships going in one particular direction. And the reason I want to talk to you in part is because I think you are a wonderful lifestyle and culture reporter. And some of the work that you do involves dating. And in doing the dating work, you are thinking about demographic and racial configurations that create couples. And I'm just wondering, with all the knowledge that you have and all the thinking you've been doing, what happens when you go see a wedding comedy like drama? Like, what is coming? Can you, like, can you reenact for me some version of your experience as you watch this thing?
Speaker 4:
[05:25] Yeah, so, okay. I must reveal now, the twist was spoiled for me before I saw the movie.
Speaker 3:
[05:32] Okay.
Speaker 4:
[05:32] Yeah, but I think...
Speaker 3:
[05:34] By the way, we're going to talk about the twist.
Speaker 4:
[05:36] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[05:36] That means spoiler alert. You've been alerted that that twist is going to get unfurled in this conversation. It has to.
Speaker 4:
[05:46] It has to. And if you haven't seen the movie yet, stop here. But I remember sitting in the theater watching the movie, knowing what the twist was going to be. We know that Emma, the character that Zendaya plays, when she, her big secret was that when she was young, she had planned a mass shooting.
Speaker 3:
[06:06] Who planned it?
Speaker 4:
[06:07] Planned it. She thought about it. She recorded a manifesto and she was going to shoot up her high school. And they were all sitting, you know, doing wine tastings before...
Speaker 3:
[06:19] For their rehearsal, for their wedding dinner.
Speaker 4:
[06:22] For their wedding dinner, for the reception.
Speaker 3:
[06:25] Drinking that skin contact wine.
Speaker 4:
[06:26] Right. And so they being her fiancé, Emma's fiancé, Charlie, played by Robert Pattinson, and two of their friends, Mike and Rachel, which you don't usually see that at like a tasting for, you know, your wedding. Usually it's just a couple, but they brought their friends along. They're drinking natural wine. They're getting drunk.
Speaker 3:
[06:43] We should say Mike and Rachel are also... They're dating interracially too.
Speaker 4:
[06:48] Yes, they're dating interracially as well.
Speaker 3:
[06:50] Black man, white woman.
Speaker 4:
[06:52] Totally. Everyone shares the worst thing they've ever done, but Emma shares the worst thing that she ever thought about doing. So knowing the twist, watching it all play out, my first thought was, okay, they are really angry that she thought of this idea. And I understand mass shootings are very sensitive topic. The United States in particular, it's not that hard to find someone who's been affected by a mass shooting in some way. So it's touchy. However, Rachel and Charlie in particular, they're very angry. And even though this movie does not at any point of the film point out, you know, the racial differences between everyone at the table, that's where my mind went first. Like, oh, they're really mad at the black girl for thinking about doing something. And they're not at all aware of the fact that she's the only person at the table who didn't actually do her worst thing.
Speaker 3:
[07:42] Right. And, you know, one of the things that's supposed to sort of give this moment some moral stakes is that Rachel's like, my cousin, and you know this, Emma, my cousin was injured, paralyzed in a mass shooting, you know, a plot convenience. Let's just say Rachel is especially sensitive about the subject of mass shootings because her cousin was injured. Let's sober up the next day and just talk about, let's just talk about it some more. But instead, Rachel cuts her off. Rachel cuts Emma off. This is the wedding weekend.
Speaker 5:
[08:18] They're getting married in like two days.
Speaker 3:
[08:21] It just seemed, the drama seemed manufactured to me, the drama in the drama.
Speaker 4:
[08:26] Well, my, okay, so I actually read that differently. I felt like it really emphasized the fact that Rachel was never Emma's friend.
Speaker 3:
[08:34] But this is raising the other question about what we're really here to talk about in terms of what happens when you have a black person in a movie in which their blackness is really not a function of the plot. And yet, you know, the audience understands what the dynamics are or a portion of the audience does.
Speaker 4:
[08:59] Right.
Speaker 3:
[08:59] And so, you know, you start asking new questions. For instance, where are her cousins during this wedding?
Speaker 4:
[09:07] Where are her black friends?
Speaker 3:
[09:09] Are there any other friends?
Speaker 4:
[09:10] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:
[09:12] Because it's just not even trying. Like, she has no, she loses her, I mean, her function is kind of classically early 2000s here, from like late 90s. She is the girl of Robert Pattinson's character's dreams, right?
Speaker 4:
[09:27] Well, I refer to her as the black manic pixie dream girl, which we don't, there's not that many black manic pixie dream girls.
Speaker 3:
[09:33] Not many at all.
Speaker 4:
[09:33] But I can clock it when she like comes to the surface. I'm like, okay, like you're here as just sort of like a tool to like help exactly for whatever he's going through.
Speaker 3:
[09:42] So the thing, the movie does this very specific thing. And this is, this is where I think we want to live for a second in terms of how we think about what race, you know, when an interracial relationship comes into comes into play. And it's the flashbacks. A lot of this movie is spent watching a young Emma essentially like live her high school life during this period where she's thinking about planning the shooting. Like not so much what leads her to do it, but the environment in which she had considered doing it. She'd moved from one city to another. I believe they were living in Louisiana when she plans.
Speaker 4:
[10:19] She was giving army brat. That's what I kind of gathered from that.
Speaker 3:
[10:22] Yeah. There's a whole psychological, I don't know what to call it a subtext. It's the text that explains some aspect of why she went where she went. When we're in Flashback Land, what are you thinking?
Speaker 4:
[10:35] I'm thinking, I want to see more. Having that context was great. I think what we saw in the Flashback, one is not what Emma explains to her partner.
Speaker 3:
[10:44] I think there's something else going on here too.
Speaker 4:
[10:46] I thought it was interesting how the approach the movie took by showing us how deep it was, how deeply impacted young Emma was by her high school experience, by her peers, but with Charlie, he's like, so someone called you musty and you wanted to shoot up to school. He couldn't understand it. I thought, okay, well, why isn't present-day Emma or adult Emma explaining to him, like, no, it's more layered than this. I was a black girl, presumably the only black girl in the school or one of, I mean, there were other black kids there. But I was being targeted and I was a newbie. I was like a weirdo. I was a loner. I was the outsider. Whatever the case may be, she doesn't go that far. Then on one hand, I was thinking, okay, she doesn't have to justify it. She doesn't try to find an excuse. She owns the fact that she had this thought. She takes the blame for it. And she tells him that, but he was seeking more. And I thought, okay, we're spending so much time on young Emma. I also wanted to understand how adult Emma was processing all of this. We really just stay with Charlie throughout the movie and his spiral.
Speaker 3:
[11:47] It's interesting how in the flashbacks, I don't know if you have this experience, but I was wondering where her parents are. We don't see them. They're conveniently disappeared. To me, knowing that this person has a white parent and a black parent, Emma, it makes me wonder what the movie is afraid of.
Speaker 4:
[12:10] Yeah, I agree. I felt like there were moments where I'm like, oh no, maybe it's not trying to over explain. It wants us to make all of those connections. When I'm thinking, okay, am I giving this movie too much credit? There, I was even thinking at the wedding reception when her dad gives the toast, I thought that even if her dad was able to say something along the lines of, it wasn't easy for young Emma to have been this black kid, or the way we were moving her around, he talks about her weird drawings and how she was angry kid, and then she turned to become a gun rights activist. Gun control activist. Right. I thought, okay, this is strange that we're meeting her parents for the first time, and no one is bringing this up.
Speaker 3:
[12:58] Her mother is a, her white mother is at the table. Back of the head.
Speaker 4:
[13:01] Back of the head.
Speaker 3:
[13:02] Barely see her face.
Speaker 4:
[13:02] Yeah, we don't see her. Yeah. And so that's where I was and still am stuck on. I know we're, like you said, as the audience, as a member of the audience, I watch it and my mind is thinking about the race. I'm also looking at the interracial relationship dynamic between Mike and Rachel, because there's that, but he could have also been a character that could have pointed out, because he wasn't as angry at Emma and I'm-
Speaker 3:
[13:27] He said he was like trying to de-escalate the situation.
Speaker 4:
[13:30] He was trying to do this because he's like, you guys are doing too much. And in my mind, I'm sitting in my seat and I'm like, of course he's saying that because he's the black man who understands and he's not going to see Emma as this criminal, but the two white characters at the table can't help themselves. They're like, no.
Speaker 3:
[13:45] You are hiding some dark shit from us this whole time.
Speaker 4:
[13:47] Yeah, it must be worse because how could you be this person? Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[13:51] But the relationship between Mike and Rachel is interesting to me in part because, and this is why I kind of wonder what the movie knows and what it doesn't know. There's a moment where Charlie goes to talk to them to try to patch things up. They're both there. I don't know why Mike's at work. Maybe Mike works in the same office as Rachel.
Speaker 4:
[14:09] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:
[14:10] Sitting in an office at Rachel's job, and at some point, Rachel says to Charlie, like somewhat condescendingly, you know, Mike has violence in his past. He doesn't, he wouldn't like this.
Speaker 4:
[14:25] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[14:26] And he's like, I do? I have violence in my past? It was, you grew up around guns.
Speaker 4:
[14:32] Yep.
Speaker 3:
[14:32] And he's like, I didn't grow up around guns. There was a gun in my house. Something to the effect of that. This thing that you have manufactured about me. And he, the movie just won't indulge the real crises here, right?
Speaker 4:
[14:45] Stays on the surface.
Speaker 3:
[14:46] It's all there for us to deal with. On our car rides or walks home from the theater. And so, I don't know. There's something to me unsettled in this movie's depiction of these relationships. And it's afraid to be about the thing that it's actually about. The worst thing, the movie is much more comfortable being afraid of the possibility that this character might have committed a violent act, while also being a black woman, than it is about talking about, allowing her to speak about, what is this really about? Right? And every time, the more the movie tries to sit on this racial question, something winds up splurting out anyway.
Speaker 4:
[15:34] Right, right. It tries to avoid the racial question.
Speaker 3:
[15:37] Right, it avoids it, but it winds up re-racializing the whole thing anyway. Because what's familiar to me is what happens when people avoid talking about this shit at all. They wind up making all kinds of other mistakes. Like, I mean, they don't even think they're mistakes. Like, Rachel probably is going to double down when they get home about having said what she said about how Mike grew up around violence.
Speaker 4:
[16:01] Yeah. And you don't think that's the point? Because, like...
Speaker 3:
[16:06] Well, actually, Gina, I don't care if that's the point. The movie isn't going nearly as deep as it needs to to take ownership of these questions. Like, these are our questions. I mean, the movie isn't interested in this as a subject. It's interested in perhaps offering it as a side effect.
Speaker 4:
[16:27] And leaving us to deal with it. And leaving us to figure it out.
Speaker 3:
[16:30] Right, a little bit like Emma.
Speaker 4:
[16:33] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[16:34] But I think this anxiety exists recently to me in a lot of works of popular culture, especially like movies and television, about relationships between black women and white men.
Speaker 4:
[16:49] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[16:50] I think we should take a break. And when we come back, I know you wanted to talk about a specific television show. And I also have something from television that is an accident of racial depth, interracial depth. All right. We'll take a break and we'll be right back.
Speaker 4:
[17:10] Awesome.
Speaker 2:
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Speaker 1:
[17:57] This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Spring always feels like a reset. Clearing things out, simplifying what you don't need.
Speaker 2:
[18:04] Apple Card is built with that same idea in mind.
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[18:06] No annual fee, no late fees, and no foreign transaction fees. No fees, period. Get started and apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 17.49% to 27.74% based on credit worthiness. Rates as of January 1st, 2026. Existing customers can view their variable APR in the Wallet app or at card.apple.com. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch. Terms and more at applecard.com. All aboard. Choose your perfect Caribbean escape with Princess Cruises. Maybe you spend the day relaxing on the top deck. Golden sun, a refreshing pina colada, and nothing on your schedule except dinner and a show. Other days, you embrace a tranquil shore, snorkel mask in hand, ready to explore white sand beaches and crystal clear waters. The best part, relaxation and discovery are both on the itinerary. Sail to the Caribbean with Princess Cruises. Visit princess.com or contact your travel advisor to book Princess Cruises, ships registered to Bermuda.
Speaker 3:
[19:12] Okay, we're back. You and I are talking about the drama starring Zendaya and Robert Pattinson, but really, I'm thinking about this conversation as an opportunity to just think about a particular thing that is happening right now in movies and television about interracial relationships between black women and white men, and the anxiety that I think exists well above the surface and often just beneath it and kind of spurts out of it, out of these works sometimes.
Speaker 4:
[19:47] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[19:48] You came prepared to talk about a specific television show that I've never watched.
Speaker 4:
[19:55] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[19:55] Right. This show, I mean, I've watched some of Bridgerton.
Speaker 4:
[19:58] Okay.
Speaker 3:
[19:58] But I don't know where you're going with this. But you want to talk about Bridgerton and Queen Charlotte.
Speaker 4:
[20:05] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[20:05] Who was a meme to me.
Speaker 4:
[20:07] She's a great meme. Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[20:09] But this character has a rich television life. Talk to me.
Speaker 4:
[20:13] So you know, I mean, I don't know if you know this, but Bridgerton has now expanded into a whole universe.
Speaker 3:
[20:20] As is Shonda Rhimes is one. This is a Shonda Rhimes show.
Speaker 4:
[20:23] Yes. This is a Shonda Rhimes show. So in Shonda Rhimes fashion, there is a separate series called Queen Charlotte, which serves as a prequel to Bridgerton. So that meme you're familiar with, she has an entire series that goes into how Queen Charlotte became the Queen. You have King George. He is the Mad King. If you've seen Hamilton, it's the same man who was depicted as King George.
Speaker 3:
[20:51] I've seen lots of King George's over the years. He's lost his mind, but still trying to run things.
Speaker 4:
[20:57] So in Queen Charlotte, the way that he's depicted in the series, it's very dark and it's really sad, and his mother cannot find a wife for him. They're trying to find the queen so that they can produce an heir.
Speaker 6:
[21:13] Turn the carriage around. I am not doing this.
Speaker 7:
[21:15] I signed the betrothal contract. You are doing this.
Speaker 6:
[21:17] No.
Speaker 7:
[21:17] Charlotte.
Speaker 4:
[21:18] Queen Charlotte is plucked out of Germany to be the queen.
Speaker 7:
[21:22] I am in charge. This is happening.
Speaker 6:
[21:23] I do not see why you could not just-
Speaker 7:
[21:25] Because they are the British Empire, and we are a tiny province in Germany. We had no choice.
Speaker 4:
[21:33] This is interesting. The series Bridgerton doesn't really go into race that much. Sort of a colorblind.
Speaker 3:
[21:40] Yes. The thing that is lauded for is the range of people on the show.
Speaker 4:
[21:46] Racially, ethnically.
Speaker 3:
[21:50] Body types.
Speaker 4:
[21:50] Body types. Exactly.
Speaker 3:
[21:51] Abilities.
Speaker 4:
[21:52] Exactly. All of the above. But in Queen Charlotte, they do touch on race a little bit.
Speaker 7:
[21:58] I know that no one who looks like you or me has ever married one of these people ever. But I cannot question, because I cannot make an enemy of the most powerful nation on earth. It is done. So shut up. Do your duty to our country and be happy.
Speaker 4:
[22:21] But what's interesting is that everyone in the palace, except Queen Charlotte, knows that King George is mad.
Speaker 7:
[22:29] What?
Speaker 4:
[22:30] They do not tell her that he is suffering from a mental illness. And he himself is carrying so much shame about the fact that he has this, you know, I don't want to call it an issue, but he has this thing about him. He's struggling that when after they get married, he is so avoidant and she doesn't know what is going on. She's like, why won't you have dinner with me? Why won't you sit with me? And so, in this scene that, like I'm describing, Queen Charlotte confronts the King's mother and she calls her out for it. Like, why didn't you tell me that I was marrying this mad king? Like, she's angry.
Speaker 6:
[23:08] All this time I thought I was the damaged one, that somehow I was deficient when he-
Speaker 8:
[23:13] The King is not mad. The King is merely exhausted from holding the greatest nation in the world on his shoulders. If necessary.
Speaker 4:
[23:23] And I remember watching that and thinking like, this queen is black. The series is making it very clear that she's black because-
Speaker 3:
[23:30] They've already racialized it because they had to justify having this woman be queen in the first place.
Speaker 4:
[23:35] Right. And watching this scene, I was thinking like, oh my God, like how they deceived this black woman. And I can't help but think that she wouldn't have done that to all the other women that she have brought forth to marry him. But they deceived her.
Speaker 3:
[23:53] I am hearing this and I just wonder, because on the one hand, this just sounds like as television, good drama. But I think once the show decides that it's going to explicitly acknowledge that a person who appears black is indeed black in the world of the show, and that the man she's been married to is appears white and indeed is white, stuff comes up. Also, it just doesn't seem like the show is equipped to deal with what comes up.
Speaker 4:
[24:30] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[24:31] All right. So you're offering Bridgerton, and the thing I'm thinking about is Presumed Innocent.
Speaker 8:
[24:38] Yes.
Speaker 3:
[24:39] I don't know if you watched this show.
Speaker 8:
[24:40] Nope.
Speaker 3:
[24:40] Was it Apple TV, Jake Gyllenhaal doing some good Harrison Ford karaoke? Okay. Where Harrison, there's a lawyer, Rusty Savage, played by Jake Gyllenhaal in the TV series. He's married to a wife and two kids on the show, but he's sleeping with a coworker. Coworker winds up dead. Who killed her?
Speaker 9:
[25:04] Right.
Speaker 3:
[25:05] The show wants to find out. Jake Gyllenhaal's character Rusty is married to a black woman. Who's played by Ruth Negga on the show.
Speaker 9:
[25:12] Love her.
Speaker 3:
[25:13] Love Ruth Negga.
Speaker 1:
[25:15] So, you want the jury to believe that he's my protector?
Speaker 3:
[25:18] Yeah.
Speaker 1:
[25:19] But I think insulting the jury's intelligence is not the best path.
Speaker 3:
[25:24] They have two kids, a boy and a girl. Girls play by Chase Infinity. And the thing that's interesting about the show is it really does not want to talk about the thing that it's about. But the instability here is that you in theory have a loving family, this is a successful career man. You know, I will yada yada yada you to the last episode. We find out who did. You can probably guess who did. You wanna guess? I've laid all the characters out who could have done it on the board.
Speaker 4:
[25:59] Okay, I feel like this is one of those twisty type of shows, so was it The Daughter?
Speaker 10:
[26:04] Ding!
Speaker 4:
[26:04] Okay, yeah.
Speaker 10:
[26:05] Oh, Jenna.
Speaker 3:
[26:06] You're great at playing this game.
Speaker 4:
[26:07] Cause you didn't name that many people. And I'm like, well, I feel like it would be too easy for it to be The Wife, so.
Speaker 3:
[26:13] So the murderer here is The Daughter.
Speaker 4:
[26:15] Okay. Interesting.
Speaker 3:
[26:17] Kill This White Woman has a whole speech about why she did it.
Speaker 11:
[26:24] It was the only thing I could think to do.
Speaker 10:
[26:27] I drove there in Mom's car. What?
Speaker 3:
[26:32] We are watching historical circumstances play out here.
Speaker 10:
[26:37] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[26:38] That the show does not want to speak of at all. So you're left with what I would describe as like cosmetic blackness, where nobody can say the thing that they are, like the feeling that comes up in them.
Speaker 10:
[26:52] J, how did you have the fire poker? I just want to confront her and-
Speaker 3:
[27:01] And the idea that Ruth Negga, I think Ruth Negga is acting, she's performing like a grieved black womanhood, but she cannot speak it.
Speaker 4:
[27:12] She can't point-
Speaker 3:
[27:12] She has to use the lines she has to create spaces for us to read between her lines. But the show is terrified of being about bringing more of the sub-subtext closer to at least the subtext. But there's an anxiety here. The anxiety to me is that these relationships cannot happen almost period without strife or drama.
Speaker 4:
[27:39] And I find that to be really interesting because I want to bring some real life statistics into this.
Speaker 3:
[27:44] Oh, you've got data?
Speaker 4:
[27:45] Got some data for you.
Speaker 3:
[27:46] Let's talk about some statistics, please.
Speaker 4:
[27:47] So, there was this 2008 studies. You know, it was a long time ago and numbers changed. But at the time, the National Council on Family Relations showed that white husband and black wife relationships, non-Hispanic black wife relationships, were around 44% less likely to divorce than white on white couples by the 10th year of marriage. Yeah, I thought that was really interesting because we know that interracial relationships are on the rise. We also know that despite that, majority of black people tend to marry within the same race, like that's unchanged. But it was the black husband, white wife marriages that were twice as likely to divorce as white on white couples in the same study. And I know we're not talking about black husband, white wife. But I think the thing that I, the reason why I bring it up is because, like you said, these dynamics with white men and black women are filled with all this drama and strife and it sucks. These relationships feel so toxic. And I think Zendaya as an actress in particular has been in like a few other.
Speaker 3:
[28:56] It's all she does.
Speaker 4:
[28:57] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[28:57] I mean, Spider-Man is her happiest relationship.
Speaker 4:
[28:59] Yeah, cause Challenger's was, that was a crazy love triangle. Like, yeah.
Speaker 3:
[29:03] That wasn't even about loving her.
Speaker 4:
[29:05] Right. But in, in real life, it seems as though these relationships do pretty well.
Speaker 3:
[29:13] I love, first of all, thank you for bringing that.
Speaker 9:
[29:17] Okay.
Speaker 3:
[29:18] Second, it's telling to me that you are seeing fewer depictions of black men and white women, when for years that was all you would really see.
Speaker 4:
[29:28] Right.
Speaker 3:
[29:29] And that those numbers include a higher divorce rate to white couples, right? I think that popular culture has divorced itself from the depiction of that relationship, right?
Speaker 9:
[29:42] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[29:42] And you can point just to get out.
Speaker 12:
[29:44] Mom and dad, my, my, my black boyfriend will be coming up this weekend. And I just don't want you to be shocked that he's a black man from the black.
Speaker 7:
[29:55] You said I was the first black guy you ever dated.
Speaker 12:
[29:57] Yeah, so what?
Speaker 10:
[29:58] Yeah, so it's just uncharted territory for him.
Speaker 7:
[30:00] You know, I don't want to get chased off the lawn with a shotgun.
Speaker 12:
[30:03] You're not going to. First of all, my dad would have voted for Obama a third time if he could have. Like, the love is so real. I'm only telling you that because he's definitely...
Speaker 3:
[30:12] I mean, I definitely think that the, the thing that Get Out put its finger on kind of began the demise of the depiction of that configuration of inter-issue relationship and the rise of this configuration, this other configuration.
Speaker 4:
[30:29] Right, right.
Speaker 3:
[30:30] I just think it's interesting that you've seen less of this one kind of depiction and more of black women and white men. I think what's telling to me is these works were happening alongside, I mean, the most prominent example we've ever had in this country of a black woman in a relationship with a white man. I mean, those two people being Kamala Harris and Doug Emhoff.
Speaker 4:
[30:56] Interesting, okay.
Speaker 3:
[30:57] I think there was a lot of anxiety that we weren't talking about then about that relationship. And I think that, you know, we, some of us were talking about this, but there is just, there's a way in which we weren't talking about it, right? In the same way that these movies won't talk about it.
Speaker 4:
[31:19] Not widely, at least. Like, we're talking about it in the group chat. We're talking about it amongst our, like, trusted friends. But, like, the discourse is not spread.
Speaker 3:
[31:26] The work is not about that.
Speaker 4:
[31:28] Yeah, yeah, the work.
Speaker 3:
[31:29] And on the one hand, I'm like, okay, Wesley, you need to chill out.
Speaker 4:
[31:36] Okay.
Speaker 3:
[31:37] This is, this, is this not the thing that our ancestors had been hoping would happen when these relationships come into being?
Speaker 4:
[31:44] That crossed my mind, too. They don't, they want to make the, I feel like a lot of these works are making the point that like these people can just exist as people. It doesn't have to be about race.
Speaker 3:
[31:55] And yet, show me one that's made it to the finish line of Until Death Do Us Part without somebody murdering the other person.
Speaker 4:
[32:03] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[32:05] I just feel like if we could, if what we were being offered are stable interracial relationships where, you know, basic problems happen, you know, like boredom, disappointment, disillusionment, not shock, paranoia, angst, and regret.
Speaker 4:
[32:22] Right, right.
Speaker 3:
[32:23] Like, I don't know, it just feels to me like there's something fundamentally scary about this bond.
Speaker 4:
[32:31] The avoidance. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 3:
[32:33] Well, just like in the depictions of it.
Speaker 4:
[32:35] Gotcha, yeah.
Speaker 3:
[32:36] Like this work is unsettled by it. So, I don't know. I just feel like there's something in here, and it began to proliferate these relationships to me, like in these big clusters in 2024, 25, 26.
Speaker 4:
[32:51] Do you think this could have like a negative effect to how these relationships come about and how, in real life, these depictions?
Speaker 3:
[33:00] No, because nobody, it's not like Get Out, right? Like Get Out really created an entire framework for looking at that love.
Speaker 4:
[33:07] Right.
Speaker 3:
[33:07] Right. And identifying something crucial, not just in interracial, like romantic relationships, but just an interracial social life.
Speaker 4:
[33:17] Right.
Speaker 3:
[33:17] Right.
Speaker 4:
[33:17] Right.
Speaker 3:
[33:17] Like how we talk, how white people talk to us, and what we assume the subtext of some of the attraction is there in that picture.
Speaker 4:
[33:27] Like I would have voted for Barack Obama third time, like if I could.
Speaker 3:
[33:30] Or like, you know, can you dance for me?
Speaker 4:
[33:32] Right. Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[33:33] I love, you're so talented. I wish I could do what you do.
Speaker 4:
[33:36] Yep.
Speaker 3:
[33:38] Okay. So with that anxiety sort of stipulated, I think it would be good to take a break. And come back and play some kind of game that we've got for you. That is about whether or not these relationships, interracial relationships, not just black women and white men, whether they make it over the finish line into like comfort, stability, happiness.
Speaker 4:
[34:02] Cool. So we're guessing.
Speaker 3:
[34:04] We're guessing. I don't even know what they are either. We're going to take a break. We'll be right back.
Speaker 4:
[34:08] Sounds good.
Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
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Speaker 11:
[35:27] I gave my brother a New York Times subscription.
Speaker 5:
[35:30] We exchange articles and so having read the same article, we can discuss it.
Speaker 13:
[35:35] She sent me a year-long subscription so I have access to all the games.
Speaker 5:
[35:38] The New York Times contributes to our quality time together. It enriches our relationship.
Speaker 4:
[35:44] It was such a cool and thoughtful gift.
Speaker 13:
[35:46] We're reading the same stuff, we're making the same food, we're on the same page.
Speaker 11:
[35:52] Learn more about giving a New York Times subscription as a gift at nytimes.com/gift.
Speaker 3:
[36:04] Okay, we're back, and it's game time. We're gonna play a little exercise.
Speaker 4:
[36:09] I'm ready to go.
Speaker 3:
[36:10] Calling here, end of the road. Sorry, let me do that a different way.
Speaker 4:
[36:15] Okay.
Speaker 3:
[36:27] All right, we are live.
Speaker 4:
[36:28] I was gonna give you a beat.
Speaker 3:
[36:30] I need a beat on my butt. All right, so put your headphones on.
Speaker 4:
[36:34] Okay.
Speaker 3:
[36:34] And basically, this game is gonna work like this. We are gonna get shown some clips from a television show or a movie, and we're gonna guess based on the clip or hopefully our knowledge of what it seems like might be happening in this movie, or a memory of the thing itself, whether this couple makes it to the end of the road.
Speaker 4:
[36:53] Okay, fun. So we're guessing to see if they end up staying together, living happily ever after, or breaking up.
Speaker 3:
[36:59] Essentially, well put. Does this couple break up or do they stay together?
Speaker 4:
[37:04] Okay.
Speaker 3:
[37:05] Let's go. Let's see our first relationship.
Speaker 10:
[37:08] Can I ask you one more question?
Speaker 3:
[37:10] Oh, I already know what this one is. Simon Baker.
Speaker 10:
[37:13] Can you take this off?
Speaker 3:
[37:14] Remember him? He was a thing.
Speaker 4:
[37:16] Yeah, I remember him.
Speaker 3:
[37:18] What do you mean? That's Sanaa Lathan. This is...
Speaker 4:
[37:20] And something new.
Speaker 3:
[37:21] Something new.
Speaker 1:
[37:22] I mean, it's not a wig, right?
Speaker 2:
[37:25] It's not your real hair either.
Speaker 4:
[37:27] Oh, yeah. This is the scene about her weave.
Speaker 2:
[37:29] Yeah.
Speaker 11:
[37:30] I can't believe you just asked me that.
Speaker 7:
[37:32] I'm sorry. Just curious.
Speaker 8:
[37:33] It's a weave, if you must know.
Speaker 4:
[37:35] I thought you dated black girls.
Speaker 7:
[37:36] They had real hair.
Speaker 11:
[37:37] I have real hair too.
Speaker 3:
[37:38] Underneath?
Speaker 8:
[37:39] Yes, underneath.
Speaker 3:
[37:40] I mean, all right. So, I'm... My memory... You know, I hated this movie when it came out. The plot is basically she's worried. She can't find a good man, had a good man, did her dirty. Single, meets this white man who, you know... You know, Blair Underwood or Simon Baker, I don't know what I would do.
Speaker 4:
[37:59] Right.
Speaker 3:
[37:59] But Blair Underwood makes himself unavailable if memory is serving me. So, it's Simon Baker.
Speaker 4:
[38:04] He makes himself unavailable?
Speaker 13:
[38:05] Isn't he terrible?
Speaker 4:
[38:07] Yes, he's just a hard... He's a very judgmental, controlling, but her family loves him. They look good on paper.
Speaker 3:
[38:12] Right. You know who else looks good on paper?
Speaker 4:
[38:14] Simon Baker.
Speaker 3:
[38:15] And in bed, Simon Baker. Not wrong. Let's see. I'm going to say, wait, I can't... I'm going to say based on my contempt of this movie that they break up.
Speaker 4:
[38:27] Okay. I'm also going to say that they break up for a different reason. I just feel like she was trying something new, but I don't think she was actually fully into it. I think that she wanted to explore more the fact that this man was really enraptured by her and her naturally, like he's like take off.
Speaker 3:
[38:48] You are reminding me of what I did not look at this movie.
Speaker 13:
[38:51] Yeah, he's like take off the week.
Speaker 3:
[38:52] Be your real self.
Speaker 4:
[38:53] Yeah, I want to see you fully naked. Yeah, I feel like after a while that's going to get really, really annoying for her.
Speaker 3:
[38:58] Bye, Simon.
Speaker 4:
[38:59] Yeah.
Speaker 10:
[39:01] Okay, are we right?
Speaker 3:
[39:02] Did they actually break up? Oh, they stay together. Does she keep her hair?
Speaker 4:
[39:07] How do we know this?
Speaker 3:
[39:09] I mean, we're trusted. Like we got a great production staff here. Yeah. They're not going to lie to us.
Speaker 4:
[39:13] I also feel like the movie was propaganda.
Speaker 3:
[39:15] It was total propaganda.
Speaker 4:
[39:16] So it makes sense that they stay together because then it can't sell it.
Speaker 3:
[39:19] The National Interracial Dating Relations Council insisted that this couple must stay together.
Speaker 4:
[39:24] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[39:25] Next clip. Last night, Godzilla flubbed his line again.
Speaker 10:
[39:30] I mean, how can you forget?
Speaker 3:
[39:34] Is this Kimmy Schmidt?
Speaker 4:
[39:35] It is. That's tight as.
Speaker 11:
[39:38] We got a shipment to rebuy in, but it was a five foot instead of the ten foot.
Speaker 4:
[39:41] So I called the supplier and they offered to give us a discount.
Speaker 11:
[39:44] But I was like, we can't work with this rebuy. Wow.
Speaker 4:
[39:48] I can't believe that story ended like that.
Speaker 11:
[39:50] No.
Speaker 3:
[39:51] Then some guy over here. He looks really increasingly grossed out by this man's masculinity.
Speaker 4:
[39:58] Oh, I remember this.
Speaker 3:
[39:59] I miss this show so much.
Speaker 4:
[40:00] Yeah. This is great.
Speaker 3:
[40:03] I mean, listen.
Speaker 4:
[40:05] Are we voting?
Speaker 3:
[40:06] We're going to vote and it's quite obvious. These people are not going to make it.
Speaker 4:
[40:10] I vote they stay together.
Speaker 3:
[40:12] I think I remember what happens here. Oh, wait. This is like the last season of that show.
Speaker 4:
[40:17] Yeah. I think they stay together and I feel like it's just-
Speaker 3:
[40:20] He makes it work.
Speaker 4:
[40:21] Yeah. They stay together.
Speaker 3:
[40:23] All right. What happens? Janelle and Feliz, do they stay together? Yeah. They stay together. They stay together. All right. I like them together.
Speaker 9:
[40:32] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[40:32] I remember. I love that relationship. Because talk about, I mean, I don't want to call that propaganda, but I think it really is, I love a mixed demeanor relationship.
Speaker 9:
[40:46] Same. Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[40:47] I love that.
Speaker 4:
[40:48] That makes it feel more real. It's like your New York couple, where you're wondering how did you two get together, but it works and I love that. Yeah.
Speaker 14:
[40:55] Yeah. All right.
Speaker 9:
[40:56] Next.
Speaker 14:
[40:57] I never even know if we're friends, if we're flirting or if she hates my guts.
Speaker 9:
[41:02] Take my sunglasses off your sweaty forehead.
Speaker 14:
[41:06] She could be joking and I could just be being like.
Speaker 9:
[41:08] Is this summer house?
Speaker 4:
[41:09] Oh my gosh. Wait.
Speaker 9:
[41:11] He is on probation and I am the strictest probation officer there ever was. But when the sun goes down, like I'm allowed to clock out for a second.
Speaker 4:
[41:24] Okay. We're both stunned.
Speaker 3:
[41:26] Wait. This is obviously not working. First of all, I'll cast my vote. I'll vote first and find out later.
Speaker 4:
[41:32] As someone who's never, I don't know who any of those people are.
Speaker 10:
[41:35] I'm just going to say break up.
Speaker 3:
[41:36] They're breaking up. This reality television.
Speaker 4:
[41:39] It just looked really intense.
Speaker 3:
[41:40] I don't know. First of all, Janelle, what show is that?
Speaker 4:
[41:44] Summer House.
Speaker 3:
[41:45] Summer House.
Speaker 4:
[41:45] That was funny. Okay. Summer House.
Speaker 3:
[41:47] So they're clearly not-
Speaker 4:
[41:48] They break up. They break up. Of course they do.
Speaker 5:
[41:50] They can't be staying together.
Speaker 3:
[41:52] I mean, reality television is where interracial love goes to die.
Speaker 4:
[41:56] I mean, you do have some anomalies, but-
Speaker 3:
[42:00] They're real aberrations, right?
Speaker 10:
[42:02] Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 4:
[42:02] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[42:03] I mean, because it feels like the producers want that. They want something bad. Talk about the drama.
Speaker 4:
[42:09] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[42:09] They want something bad to happen between and among the races.
Speaker 4:
[42:13] You kind of need it to.
Speaker 3:
[42:14] Right. All right. Gina, we're tied.
Speaker 4:
[42:16] Okay.
Speaker 3:
[42:17] So this is to find out who between us is better at interracial doom, me or you.
Speaker 4:
[42:24] Is there a prize at the end of it?
Speaker 3:
[42:25] I hope not. Hopefully, I get to keep my interracial relationship. That should be the prize, but I keep my man.
Speaker 14:
[42:31] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[42:33] Hi.
Speaker 12:
[42:35] Oh, hello. What's his name? Humphrey.
Speaker 3:
[42:40] Oh, hi.
Speaker 12:
[42:43] Sorry.
Speaker 4:
[42:43] The robot.
Speaker 3:
[42:44] Another Zendaya.
Speaker 4:
[42:46] Yeah.
Speaker 11:
[42:47] Here you are.
Speaker 6:
[42:49] The rebel reading alone in the park.
Speaker 3:
[42:52] I love her so much.
Speaker 4:
[42:53] Yeah, she's great.
Speaker 11:
[42:55] So what are you reading?
Speaker 6:
[42:56] Oh, no. Let me guess.
Speaker 14:
[42:58] The Cool Guy's Guide to Wearing Sunglasses Inside.
Speaker 6:
[43:02] It's close.
Speaker 10:
[43:03] To Kill a Mockingbird.
Speaker 12:
[43:04] It's actually my favorite book.
Speaker 4:
[43:06] Of course.
Speaker 3:
[43:07] What even is this? Do you know?
Speaker 4:
[43:08] I have no idea, but I think I know my guess, and I'm going to vote that they break up.
Speaker 3:
[43:13] What?
Speaker 13:
[43:13] I'm staring together.
Speaker 4:
[43:15] They're staying together.
Speaker 3:
[43:15] They're staying together.
Speaker 4:
[43:16] He is giving like, he's not giving the love of her life. He's giving, he's a lesson.
Speaker 3:
[43:21] Think about, this is clearly from like 2015, maybe 2018.
Speaker 4:
[43:25] And they're young. And she's like, this is a bad boy with a leather jacket that my dog runs to.
Speaker 3:
[43:31] And she's giving Alicia Silverstone and Clueless. So I feel like, I don't know, I'm going to say they stay together. First of all, Janelle, what is this and who wins?
Speaker 12:
[43:43] This is from the Disney channel originally, Daff.
Speaker 3:
[43:47] Daff!
Speaker 12:
[43:49] And they stay together.
Speaker 4:
[43:50] They stay together? Okay.
Speaker 3:
[43:52] Yes, they do.
Speaker 4:
[43:53] Well, you get to keep your interracial relationship. Congratulations.
Speaker 3:
[43:56] Sorry, that was the stakes for that high. I was going to lose my man. Okay. Well, I get to keep my love and I want a game. Gina, I didn't invite you here to beat you.
Speaker 4:
[44:07] No, no.
Speaker 3:
[44:08] So I just want to say thanks for coming.
Speaker 4:
[44:11] Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3:
[44:12] You can come back anytime you want.
Speaker 4:
[44:13] Please, let me know.
Speaker 3:
[44:15] We got to the end.
Speaker 4:
[44:16] We got to the end. We made it.
Speaker 3:
[44:17] But we got a lot of healing to do. We got to fix these loves.
Speaker 4:
[44:21] I mean, I just want, yeah, I need there to be the movie that fixes this for us. I just point to it.
Speaker 3:
[44:29] I mean.
Speaker 4:
[44:30] She is black, he is white.
Speaker 3:
[44:33] Case closed.
Speaker 4:
[44:34] Just make that clear.
Speaker 3:
[44:35] There's no drama. There's no drama. It's fine.
Speaker 4:
[44:38] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[44:38] Just let's make it to Tuesday. This episode of Cannonball was produced by Janelle Anderson, Elissa Dudley-John, White and Austin Mitchell. It was edited by Lisa Tobin and Felice Leon. This episode was also engineered by Daniel Ramirez. It was recorded by Matty Masiello, Kyle Grandillo, Nick Pittman and Sam Winter. We've got original music by Dan Powell and Diane Wong, and our theme music is by Justin Ellington. Bobby Doherty, he took the photo for our show art. Our audience team is Katie O'Brien and Maria Obducoff. Our video team is Brooke Minters and Felice Leon. This episode was filmed by Alfredo Chiarappa and Daniele Sarti. It was edited by Jeremy Rocklin and Amy Marino. We're on YouTube. Watch and subscribe, please, if you have not already, and we're going to be back next week. I just got one question.
Speaker 13:
[45:41] Do you remember?