transcript

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
[01:55] Hello, and welcome to Dopey, the podcast on drugs, addiction and dumb shit. My name is Dave, and today is the Thursday, Dopey's Greatest Hits episode. And today, the theme, the patrons pick the fucking episode. And once in a while, I'll be clever and I'll pick a theme. And today's theme, potential theme, was TV stars or notable characters from great TV shows. And or great TV character choices, we called it. And the options were Michael Imperioli with a special appearance by the late great Bill Blaber, who obviously played Christopher on the Sopranos, Andre Royo, who played Bubbles on the Wire, Robert Eyler, who played AJ on the Sopranos, Danny Bonaduce, who played, I believe the character's name was Danny on the Partridge Family, or Mackenzie Phillips, who played, fuck, I don't remember her name, on One Day at a Time. And Michael Imperioli won the vote with the late great Bill Blaber. And I've been trying to get you guys to vote for the Michael Imperioli episode forever, because I got to reenact the scene from the Sopranos, which was one of the most satisfying, in theory, it was one of the most satisfying moments in the history of Dopey. When you go back and you listen to it, you know, it wasn't, it was not the greatest thing in the world, but it was cool at the time. I felt like I had persevered and gotten what I wanted, which is a nice feeling. I saw a complaint in the Spotify comments from yesterday, from yesterday's show, I'll read it next week or whatever. And they complain about there's too many ads on the show. And these are of course the preloaded ads or the inserted ads. And the first thing I did was I freaked out that there were too many ads on the show. And then the second thing I did was realize that if you wanna listen without the fucking inserted ads, you've joined the $8 tier of Patreon. And then I thought, well $8, that's a lot of money. And I bought a large black coffee today from Starbucks, I think it was $5. And then I divided $8 by 30 days, and it's $0.25 a day. And I put up fucking, how many shows a month, a million, four weeks, five, like 20 shows a week that you can get without ads at $0.25 a day. So and then on top of it, if you don't wanna pay the $0.25 a show or a month, a day, whatever it is, guess how much it costs to listen with the ads? It's free. So just fucking fast forward the ads. I felt bad for a second, but give me a break. It's like, dude, it's unreal. Am I supposed to be toiling away like some idiot, and you can't put $0.25 in the machine and get them ad free or complain?

Speaker 3:
[05:06] It's like, what the fuck?

Speaker 2:
[05:08] What the fuck is happening? What the hell is going on? It's ridiculous. Such a crazy world. Do you want to hear my big crazy plan? Here's my crazy plan. All right. It's not going to happen, but I'm going to, man, I never do this. I never talk about my plans on the show. Usually, I talk about my plans on the Patreon Zoom. But this is what I'm thinking. All right. DopeyCon looks like it's going to be either, could it be on a Friday? Would you guys resist? Would you hate it? If we did DopeyCon on Friday, October 2nd, instead of Saturday, October 3rd, because we have this possible venue, this nice theater at the School of Visual Arts, or we could do it in the fucking disgusting stinky church like we always do. But this is what I'm thinking. Actually, it's not going to work. My plan's not going to work. Not at the SVA Theater. On Friday, October 2nd, in Brooklyn, they do this concert called like CBGB's Festival. And one of the bands that's playing CBGB's Festival are the Sex Pistols. And maybe, I don't know if he's the number one. He's not the number one. He's a top five dopey dream guest, is the guitar player from the Sex Pistols, Steve Jones. And I feel like if he's in New York, and we could get him some money, maybe we could do DopeyCon with him, where rather than the circus that we do every year, which is DopeyCon, we do it as a Steve Jones show, and we pay him. And it's like, and everything is covered. It's like a new style DopeyCon. I shouldn't put this on the show. All right. That's the first and the last time I'm ever going to confide in you guys. But if anybody here knows Steve Jones, maybe you can help us make it happen. There's something else I wanted to ask you guys. Are any of you guys filmmakers? Because we're looking for entries in our Dopey Recovery Short Film Festival. So send in entries to dopeypodcast.gmail.com. Also send in dopey stories to dopeypodcast.gmail.com. I am going to play a voicemail.

Speaker 4:
[07:35] Hey Dave and Dopey Nation. I wanted to share a story about some dumb shit that I did back when I was in addiction. I was probably 20 some years ago. I don't know. I've been sober since 20 years ago. And I decided that one night when I was really kind of like in a shit mood, in a shit way, that I was going to drink and drop acid at the same time. So as the night progressed, I went down into my basement and being that I started to get like paranoid and I was at that point kind of like at my end of my rope and I decided that I was going to get rid of all of these whiskey bottles that I hid over the time that I was married. My wife was out of the house, my ex-wife now. And so I went down into the basement and I decided that I thought it would be fun to maybe like smash them and then see what would happen with them. And then I decided, you know what would even be more fun is that I would go upstairs and pick up my pistol and bring it downstairs and have target practice in my house. So I did that. I lined up the bottles. I don't know how many there were eight to 10, maybe 12. I don't know. And I loaded up my Glock and I decided I was going to let loose on these bottles. So I started shooting them. And as I was shooting them, I ricocheted a couple bullets. Seemed like they came pretty close to me. And I don't really care. I think I felt like I had a death wish at that point, but I did feel like maybe I should just try to maybe be safe a little bit. So I hid behind a wall that no way would have helped me in any sense of the imagination. So I ended up shooting a couple more bottles. And the noise was out of control. There were, you can hear them like hitting things. I know I hit a lamp at some point, something else. And I did one more shot. And as I did that shot, I felt a burning in my hand. And so I looked down and the middle finger of my pistol hand had gotten hit by some, by a bullet, a Rick Shane bullet. And so it ended up tearing off my nail and my nail bed and kind of created sort of like a groove in my hand. Well, there was no way I was going to be able to find any way to explain that one out. So while I'm like still sort of coming down at this point, I decided that the pain was really immense, but that I needed to hide all the evidence of the things that I did. So I decided that I was going to first try to wrap up my finger and then at least get it to stop bleeding a little bit. It was kind of cauterized from how fast that it hit. But then I decided to clean up all of my bottles, things like that, all the broken bottles, get those out to the garbage. And then I looked at my finger again and it was like, there's no way I'm going to get through with this. So I decided that I was going to use one of my angle grinders down in the basement there and turn it on and make it look like it was an accident with the angle grinder because I've been known to have that happen. So I did that. I started to turn on my angle grinder and I started to kind of closely get my finger towards it and I started hitting it, just a little bit here and there, try to get it to sort of even out the little ditch that I made. And then I don't know if you know anything about how many vessels there are on fingers, but blood started going everywhere. So I'm freaking out and I'm getting it all kind of like wrapped up and cleaned up and then decided that it was time for me to like get it clean at least as much as I could until the morning. So I wrapped it up in gauze, wrapped it up in more gauze and then as time went on it, finally the blood started quit like, I don't know, coagulated and then the bleeding stopped. And then I decided to call it a night. So that's it. I did. Fun fact, I did lose three of those fingers in a separate accident when I was sober. But they're all put back on, including the one that's missing the nail. So stay strong, Dopey Nation, and toodles for Chris.

Speaker 2:
[12:14] Yeah, acid and guns are horrible. I think a horrible mixture. I think acid and injury is also just horrible. It also just reminds me how vulnerable we all are. We're these like walking bags of flesh and how easy it is to get hurt or, you know, just your nail bed coming off, how much that hurts and how much it impairs you and how what a tiny piece it is makes me makes me feel grateful, grateful to be whole, have have strong and healthy nail beds. And that gentleman, he didn't say his name. I don't want to say his name just in case, but he was at the Patreon Zoom today and the Patreon Zoom was fantastic. There was a gentleman who was struggling because he's having too much chem sex with his husband and he was looking for some recovery and the Dopey Nation obliged. It was an amazing Patreon Zoom. If you guys want to be a part of our Patreon family, go to www.patreon.com/dopeypodcast. The members of Patreon, I cannot thank them enough. And I'm going to read the comments from last week's Best of Thursday. And I'm going to start with the Patreon folk. And the first one is Rebecca Baron, who says it was great to meet Alan again and his nephews at Dopeywood. What a night. I don't think I got to see Rebecca. I don't know if I got to see her or not. Rebecca, did I get to see you? I don't know. Zoe says, I agree that this beautiful space of ours that you have created with intentionality and sensitivity should be a space free of political jargon and debate. Dopey is a safe space where everyone is welcome. And I appreciated that guy's email to you. It serves as a reminder that substance use affects everyone and everyone is welcome here. That's true. Thank you, Zoe. All are welcome. Dee Willis says, a double dose of Alan. I've seriously missed him. And for the record, I loved the story about his walk. Eight miles, impressive. Give me a break. Hannah Valasek delighted for Alan's return. He has been missed. Diane of Catzine says, yes, you have to get the audio book of the Miles Davis book. He reads it beautifully. What books do you have coming up, Dave? And I actually read this on a Patreon video. I have a book of short stories by Jerry Stahl. I'm about to listen to. I have some self-help book, but I have nothing really coming up. There's nothing coming up in my literary world, so I'm open to suggestions. And I just want to say this here. I said it on the Patreon thing. It is not Miles that reads the Miles book. It is an actor who does an amazing Miles Davis voice. Kyle Radewski says, I can listen to Dave and his dad talk for hours. And such a great episode. Stevie D says, How about André Royaux replay next week for a WIRE double bill? By the way, the different versions of Good So Bad reminds me of how the WIRE had different versions of Way Down in the Hole. It's true. We read this and I played Way Down in the Hole for the patrons. It was not great. And then Kirby says, I have been a fan of Earl's music for years. This is awesome. And those are the Patreon comments. And if any of you guys want stickers, just let me know. And here are the Spotify comments. Dustin Orlando, I cannot wait for the Andy Roy episodes to work their way into the Greatest Hits replay. It's gonna be tricky. Andy is one of the greatest dopes in the history of Dopey, but it's gonna be tricky. Mark Filippone says, I cannot wait for Dr. Carlhart. Yeah, I don't see that one happening, Mark. And then this name, I can't even say, and he says, This Steve Earle interview was so honest and educational, it totally reminded me of myself. Me being a guitar player, I remember reading his comeback article in a guitar magazine. I didn't understand opioids at that time, but boy did I ever learn the hard way. Top-notch honest interview, thank you very much. You're welcome. Kirby says, Twice as good, twice as much Alan. Steve Earle is a fucking legend. JDD. Hart says, For a moment, I was starting to think, Jesus Christ, Alan, spit it out already. But then I remembered that I love this man unconditionally, and I could never get mad at him. Alan Manheim is a national treasure, and Dopey would not be the same without him. That's true. I don't know if Dopey would exist without my father, because he played such a role in my drug addiction. Steve Guy says, I was listening to my other podcast called RecoveryCast, and my buddy Dave was the guest interview. Buddy, you really went deep about your addiction, and I heard some things I didn't know about you. Great show. And this show is a good show to listen to on a Friday. Great job, buddy. Keep your head up, and toodles for Chris. Yeah, I was on the RecoveryCast show. Check it out. It was pretty good. The interviewer was great on there. B Faye says, your dad is a treasure. The big escalator at Penn Station. Bringing two sandwiches on a flight. Just fantastic. Thank you, B. Dawn Hayden says, ah, sweet lady. Alan, you sure do know how to make a lady blush. Good to see you. Go Wisconsin. Yeah, that was Dawn. And she saw my dad at Dopey Wood. And my dad was quelling to meet all the dopes. And quelling is a Yiddish word, which means to express much joy and pride. And he loves the Dopey Nation. So we are going to play the Michael Imperioli with the late Bill Blaber. And I just want to say, Bill was one of a kind guy. I think he was on the show three times. And he interviewed me for the old Mountainside podcast. And he was very well researched in Dopey. He was also at DopeyCon 1. He told an amazing story at DopeyCon 1. And he's always going to be missed. We love Bill. Here is me, Michael Imperioli and Bill Blaber on this replay of Dopey, I believe it was episode, 205. Here we go. Oh yeah, before I play it, I just want to thank everybody who left Spotify comments. And I want to implore the rest of you to leave Spotify comments. You just go to Spotify and leave a comment and talk about the episode or what's up with you. And I'll read it. And then you get a sticker. It's really easy and great for the show and for you and me.

Speaker 3:
[20:02] All right, that's it, fuck that, that's good.

Speaker 2:
[20:05] Hello and welcome to Dopey, the podcast about drugs, addiction, and dumb shit. And I'm Dave, and I am in Manhattan, in my father's apartment, and we have a very special guest. His name is Bill Blaber. I was sure his name was Bill Blaber, but it's not. Welcome to the show.

Speaker 3:
[20:22] Thanks, Dave, you got it right. A lot of people don't get it right.

Speaker 2:
[20:25] I had it wrong. I had it wrong until, let's do some full disclosure. I met Bill, actually through Chris, but only through emails where I tried to, Bill works at Mountainside where Chris and I went to treatment, where DopeyCon is happening. You are a sober coach.

Speaker 3:
[20:41] I am. I'm a senior recovery coach at Mountainside Treatment Center here in New York City. And our treatment center is up in Canaan, Connecticut, but I work with a lot of clients who get out of treatment and come back to New York and want to make recovery coaching part of their aftercare plan. I love it. Love what I do.

Speaker 2:
[20:56] When did you start recovery coaching?

Speaker 3:
[20:59] I've been in the addiction recovery industry for five plus years, a little under six years, and I started working with Mountainside almost three years ago. Next month will be three years, October 25th.

Speaker 2:
[21:09] You've got a real cruise director kind of tone when you're not talking about Madonna's World Tour. You're like the ultimate cruise director.

Speaker 3:
[21:17] Right. I just mentioned that tonight is a big night. Madonna's brand new World Tour, Madamax, opens at BAM in Brooklyn.

Speaker 2:
[21:23] Oh shit, it's in Brooklyn?

Speaker 3:
[21:24] It's in Brooklyn. Are you going? I'm going on September 25th, October 1st, and October 7th.

Speaker 2:
[21:30] Did you ever hear the story about when I met Madonna?

Speaker 3:
[21:32] Stop, Dave. Do you want to hear the story? My life is like six degrees of separation from Madonna. I just spoke to somebody last week who told me, oh, let me tell you about the time I went to the movies with Madonna.

Speaker 2:
[21:41] Shut up. When did they go to the movies with Madonna?

Speaker 3:
[21:43] About a year ago. And I said, what movie did you see? And he couldn't remember. So I said, you're lying. He said, no, no, no. Because I don't remember because I didn't watch the movie. I sat there the whole time looking at her.

Speaker 2:
[21:52] Amazing. How does he know Madonna to go to the movies with her?

Speaker 3:
[21:54] He's in the arts and he knows a dancer, who knows a dancer who dances with Madonna. But I mean, I could give you countless examples from my life of people who have met Madonna, spent time with Madonna. The director of our recovery coaching program in New York, Jason, danced with Madonna years ago, years ago at a party before, I don't want to talk about his past, but you know, way before he worked for Mountainside. And he loves to throw that in my face that he danced with Madonna. I had like a Christmas party.

Speaker 2:
[22:23] Well, do you want to hear the story of when I met Madonna?

Speaker 3:
[22:25] Okay, lay it on me.

Speaker 2:
[22:26] Okay, the year was 1987. I was a seventh grader on the Upper East Side of Manhattan. Okay, just to set the scene, it was seventh grade, it was the fall. Madonna was shooting Who's That Girl on the Upper East Side. I was a very fashionable young man, young boy, and I would wear Converse All Stars, but because I was so lazy, I wouldn't tie the sneakers, and in fact, the laces would undo all the way. So I basically have undone shoes with the laces hanging out. In my school, it was a very progressive fancy pants school, and when you start seventh grade, throughout your time in the school, you get free periods, but when you start the seventh grade, Monday morning, first period is free, for whatever reason. So they're shooting Who's That Girl down the street on 94th Street between Madison and Fifth Avenue, and I had nothing to do, and I don't know why I was alone, but I walked over there alone to watch them shoot a scene, and I'm just sitting there, and she gets out of the cab, and she goes, hey. And I went, hey. And she goes, she goes, your shoe's untied. And I said, I said, I know. It's a choice.

Speaker 3:
[23:42] So Madonna actually spoke to you.

Speaker 2:
[23:45] Yeah, and then she said, you cut school to see me? And I said, no, actually it's a free period. And that was it.

Speaker 3:
[23:51] Oh, that's funny. That was at the apex, like, when she was shooting Who's That Girl, she was like, yeah, I mean, she was already huge, but that was on the rise, and then right after Who's That Girl, she exploded.

Speaker 2:
[24:01] Oh, yeah. But can you believe that me and Madonna had that tatatat?

Speaker 3:
[24:06] I can't even tell you like I'm sitting here, very envious. I have this dream. No, I don't have this dream. I really believe in my heart of hearts that I will one day have dinner with Madonna.

Speaker 2:
[24:19] I believe it.

Speaker 3:
[24:19] And I don't know where it's going to happen. I just have this innate feeling that, like I said, she's circling me through all these people in my life, the six degrees of separation. I've actually been in the room with Madonna. I used to study Kabbalah when I was first getting sober over on the east side.

Speaker 2:
[24:36] I think it's pronounced Kabbalah.

Speaker 3:
[24:38] No, that's the way the Americans pronounce it, but it's Kabbalah.

Speaker 2:
[24:40] Who says Kabbalah?

Speaker 3:
[24:41] The Kabbalists. So, no, it's the Hebrew way.

Speaker 2:
[24:44] Where do they say Kabbalah?

Speaker 3:
[24:46] When you're at the Kabbalah Center, they say Kabbalah.

Speaker 2:
[24:49] Kabbalah. I wonder if there's like a, I just can see shoemakers like a cobbler saying, well, not only am I a cobbler, but I also practice Kabbalah. After I'm done cobbling, I Kabbalah. So, you were Kabbalahing with Madonna?

Speaker 3:
[25:03] I was Kabbalahing with Madonna. I was sitting in...

Speaker 2:
[25:05] Well, break it down.

Speaker 3:
[25:07] So, I was going there regularly, and I think it's Tuesday nights. Where? Do you know what the Zohar is?

Speaker 2:
[25:13] I have some knowledge of the Zohar. I am a Talmudic scholar, don't you know?

Speaker 3:
[25:17] Well, you know, it's like this ancient...

Speaker 2:
[25:20] I actually don't know, so tell me, please.

Speaker 3:
[25:21] It's like a series of, I don't know, like a series of books. It's like the World Encyclopedia, like there's 20 volumes of it or something, it's this book of illuminations and light and it has all this power.

Speaker 2:
[25:29] The Zohar.

Speaker 3:
[25:30] The Zohar.

Speaker 2:
[25:31] It's some Jewish mysticism book.

Speaker 3:
[25:33] Exactly.

Speaker 2:
[25:33] Okay.

Speaker 3:
[25:33] And so every Tuesday night there was like a Zohar class. And she was, you know, an active student of Kabbalah.

Speaker 2:
[25:38] So you were in this Kabbalah class with the Zohar.

Speaker 3:
[25:41] So while I walked in, I didn't know she was going to be there, and I'm sitting in like the second row toward the front with my friend, and all of a sudden my cell phone buzzes.

Speaker 2:
[25:50] Oh no.

Speaker 3:
[25:51] And so like this is, you know, this is sort of like a, this is a spirituality class. So you're not supposed to have a buzzing cell phone so like I pulled out my phone and I, you know, I did this, like, you know, I held it down by my leg and it said, and it was from my friend who was sitting right next to me, and it said, she's here. And I was like, she's here. And so I look at him and he's, he went like, Did you know Madonna might be there? No idea.

Speaker 2:
[26:13] Okay.

Speaker 3:
[26:14] No idea. And he like took his head and he like, you know, kinked it off to like, to the right hand side. And he's like, look, look. And I turned my head and remember, I'm in the second row of this class with this big rabbi up front teaching, you know.

Speaker 2:
[26:27] Is it a rabbi?

Speaker 3:
[26:28] Yeah, he's a rabbi.

Speaker 2:
[26:29] Okay. And does he say Kabbalah or Kabbalah?

Speaker 3:
[26:31] He says Kabbalah.

Speaker 2:
[26:32] Okay. It would be so annoying.

Speaker 3:
[26:34] With an accent.

Speaker 2:
[26:34] If I saw Madonna do an interview and she says, I study Kabbalah. She doesn't even talk like the way she used to when she was.

Speaker 3:
[26:40] No, no.

Speaker 2:
[26:40] You got your shoes on tight. She sounded like Cyndi Lauper or something.

Speaker 3:
[26:44] Exactly. And now she's like, She's had elocution lessons.

Speaker 2:
[26:46] I study Kabbalah.

Speaker 3:
[26:47] Right.

Speaker 2:
[26:48] Anyway.

Speaker 3:
[26:48] She, so I look, you know, I cranked my neck all the way around, which was, you know, I was trying to do it very subtly so that, you know, no one would notice. And there she is, back row, looking amazing, like completely done up, these big, beautiful, like horn rim glasses on her, hair done, makeup done. And on either side of her were these huge guys dressed in all black, which were obviously security. But-

Speaker 2:
[27:12] Not your regular Kabbalah students.

Speaker 3:
[27:14] No, these big, big, big guys.

Speaker 2:
[27:15] Do you think they were Talmudic scholars also?

Speaker 3:
[27:17] I mean, I don't know. No, I don't think so. But they were very intimidating and they were there, so there was no chance anyone was going to go up and say, Hey Madonna, what did you think? And I didn't hear one more word the rest of that night that they were teaching. I kept trying to crank my neck. At the end of it, though, I did stand up immediately and turned around so that I could stare at her. And she stayed in her seat, so she didn't even get up and try and leave the room as everyone else was leaving. She sat there as people were leaving the room.

Speaker 2:
[27:45] And it's not like a 12-step meeting where you can disclose this kind of stuff in a Kabbalah meeting?

Speaker 3:
[27:50] That's a really good question. You know, Kabbalah really helped me in my early recovery. But no, it's not like that. She, you know, when she's actively involved, from what I understand, she's at that center. I think it's on like East 48th Street.

Speaker 2:
[28:01] Do they teach you how to levitate or disappear?

Speaker 3:
[28:04] No, I mean, all I know is that this time around, when I tried to get sober back in 2009, it was like a light switch went on when I heard about Kabbalah. And now I'm going to laugh every time I say Kabbalah. But it just all made sense, like this mysticism in the way they explain things.

Speaker 2:
[28:21] Well, give us a little piece. Give us a smidge.

Speaker 3:
[28:23] Oh, it's been years. A smidge. A smidge. Well, let me describe it this way. There's the Bible, and there are all these stories in the Bible. And there's like the Adam and Eve story. There's the Moses story. And Kabbalah has a way of taking those stories and reinterpreting them in a way that makes sense so their parables or their metaphors or their ways to describe what's really going on so that you don't take them literally.

Speaker 2:
[28:48] It somehow contemporizes Biblical stories.

Speaker 3:
[28:51] I guess, I don't know if contemporize is the word, but it really...

Speaker 2:
[28:54] It reframes them so you can really relate to them.

Speaker 3:
[28:56] It teaches you the lesson and the spiritual principle behind what the Adam and Eve story is really about. I could have told you this years ago while I was studying it, and I really can't recall right now, but it just was like you took a light switch and you turned it on and everything made sense for me. I think a lot of that is because my primary drug of choice was crystal meth, and my crystal meth use was very, very, I described it as being very spiritual. I was on a different level, let me tell you. I was on a totally different level for years when I was using. So when I started to get some clarity, this Jewish mysticism really, it opened up my eyes and it made me feel less crazy.

Speaker 2:
[29:32] You're not Jewish. Blaber is not a Jewish name.

Speaker 3:
[29:34] No, I say I'm like Jew-ish. That's the way, sort of Jew-ish. Dated a lot of great Jewish guys, but no, I'm not Jewish. I grew up Catholic on Long Island.

Speaker 2:
[29:43] Nice. That's pretty close to Jew-ish. Anything on Long Island could be totally seen as, or at least allowed to be, what's the word I'm looking for, when somebody's allowed to be honorary.

Speaker 3:
[29:53] Honorary.

Speaker 2:
[29:54] You can be honorary Jew-ish by being a Catholic on Long Island. You could do the accent, I'm sure.

Speaker 3:
[29:58] My mother wouldn't agree, but yes.

Speaker 2:
[29:59] That's funny. Floral Park, are there a lot of Jews in Floral Park?

Speaker 3:
[30:04] Not at all. No, Floral Park today is pretty much the same it was when I was growing up. It's a great town. Their slogan is, it's a great place to live.

Speaker 2:
[30:13] Because there's no Jews?

Speaker 3:
[30:14] Because there's no Jews or black people.

Speaker 2:
[30:17] My town is like that too. Really? Where did you grow up?

Speaker 3:
[30:20] What town?

Speaker 2:
[30:20] I grew up here in this apartment.

Speaker 3:
[30:22] Oh, you grew up in the city.

Speaker 2:
[30:22] But I live in Sayville.

Speaker 3:
[30:24] Right.

Speaker 2:
[30:24] And Sayville is so-

Speaker 3:
[30:25] I have family in Sayville. Well, they're not there anymore, but my whole life I had family there.

Speaker 2:
[30:29] My favorite joke about Sayville is the town is so white, the 7-Eleven doesn't even sell dark chocolate. Anyway, though, crystal meth, fucking A, Madonna, what are we doing here? I fucking-

Speaker 3:
[30:43] My friends would tell you every time you sit down with Bill, Madonna always comes up. So I'm so proud that actually I've kept that going along with this interview.

Speaker 2:
[30:50] Well, it gave me a real opportunity to tell my meeting Madonna story, which I've always wanted to tell.

Speaker 3:
[30:54] You ever told that story?

Speaker 2:
[30:55] I don't know. I feel like I probably wanted to impress Chris with it. But now I like that you told this very spiritual, mystical place. I've told this story a million times, but I just want to mention it to you, that there's a guy in B&H who does sound, I believe his name is Yudi, and he is a Kabbalan, or what's, how do we say it again?

Speaker 3:
[31:18] Kabbalah.

Speaker 2:
[31:19] A Kabbalah scholar, and he's very interested in sound because the Kabbalah teaches us that all life is created with a vibration.

Speaker 3:
[31:28] Right, right, you send these vibrations out into the universe and they come back to you.

Speaker 2:
[31:31] Alright, that's it, enough of this.

Speaker 3:
[31:32] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[31:33] Now, you are a drug addict, a crystal meth addict in long-term recovery.

Speaker 3:
[31:37] Yep, 10 years this past June.

Speaker 2:
[31:39] Nice. And Bill, again, works at Mountainside and they're doing DopeyCon and blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah blaber. And fucking, he had me on Mountainside's first podcast and interviewed me so beautifully that I was like, I got to get Bill on Dopey.

Speaker 3:
[31:58] Yeah, it was great. It was the first time. I was really nervous. It was the first time I've ever sat down, just like you and I are sitting down right now. There's no rehearsal. You sit down and you prepare, but we sat down with you and me and Jessica, who's our alumni manager. She works up in Canaan at our treatment center. And we had...

Speaker 2:
[32:14] You can hear Jessica. He's mentioning you.

Speaker 3:
[32:15] Yeah, I got to get Jessica in there. She's amazing.

Speaker 2:
[32:17] She is amazing.

Speaker 3:
[32:19] And yeah, we did this podcast and I felt like it really went well. I don't know if you had this experience at the beginning, but when we were done, I went blank. I couldn't remember anything that we had talked about because I tried to stay really engaged in the conversation.

Speaker 2:
[32:31] That's good.

Speaker 3:
[32:31] So I wasn't like rehearsing, you know, I wasn't repeating lines that we had rehearsed. I was like really sitting there engaged. So when they finally released it, I was like, oh, we talked about that. We talked about that. I was really upset that they cut a lot of the RuPaul stuff out.

Speaker 2:
[32:44] They did?

Speaker 3:
[32:45] Yeah, not all of it, but a little bit.

Speaker 2:
[32:47] You got so excited about RuPaul too.

Speaker 3:
[32:49] It actually came up because you had just had Alaska on your podcast, but we had spoken a lot more. So if anybody's listening, well, hopefully people are listening. We had a nice conversation about RuPaul, but a lot of it got cut.

Speaker 2:
[33:00] I think RuPaul is destined to come on Dopey. Madonna, probably not.

Speaker 3:
[33:04] RuPaul would be amazing on Dopey.

Speaker 2:
[33:06] I just knew that I think we had great chemistry when I was there, and I don't remember fucking anything. I never do.

Speaker 3:
[33:14] Does that happen to you? Do you blank out like after you do an episode because you're so focused on what's going on? I don't know.

Speaker 2:
[33:19] I don't know if it's because I'm so focused, but that was what Chris would always say at the end of every episode. He'd say, I have no idea what we just talked about. And I don't know. I know that he wasn't particularly focused. I think it's more like that's the best way to look at it, like that you were so focused, but it's really that I think you lose yourself in the conversation. And then little bits pop into your head. When I interview somebody, I have a plan. I have bullet points. I want to talk about this, this, this and this, especially because I don't know them, and I don't know that there's going to be chemistry. I don't know what it's going to be. So when I think about what we did talk about, I was like, okay, we did talk about this, this, this and this. Or if I have somebody on, I usually have a plan. I actually, with you, I had a little bit of a plan, but obviously not much, because here we are. But my plan was, because I've very much enjoyed all this Madonna talk, but my plan was for you to tell a Dopey story in the beginning. So would you grace us with a Dopey story?

Speaker 3:
[34:17] Yeah, I'd love to. You know, when I found out it was coming on, I thought about what am I going to tell? I told you on the phone yesterday when we were talking, I have stories that start at G and go up to triple X. And if you and I were sitting at Starbucks, there are stories I would definitely tell you without hesitation, but there are stories that I think might even make you nervous. I mean, we're sitting in your dad's kitchen.

Speaker 2:
[34:39] But my dad was a gay square dancing guy. I don't think you realize what my dad's like.

Speaker 3:
[34:45] No, he's not here, is he?

Speaker 2:
[34:46] And when I say gay, I mean homosexual square dancing. He's in a group of homosexual square dancers, not like it's so gay.

Speaker 3:
[34:52] It's a big thing.

Speaker 2:
[34:53] Well, he was part of it, Times Square. Have you ever done the Times Square?

Speaker 3:
[34:56] I haven't.

Speaker 2:
[34:56] That was his thing. No.

Speaker 3:
[34:58] But I thought about...

Speaker 2:
[34:59] I talked about my dad being in this gay square dancing thing and the audience, the Dopey Nation, thought I was being homophobic, like putting down the square dancing as gay when in actuality it's a homosexual square. Yeah, I think that's very funny. Anyway, please.

Speaker 3:
[35:14] So I thought about what I'm going to talk about. The first thing that came across my mind was, you know, I don't sit around and think about these stories anymore. Not because I don't dwell on, I don't want to dwell on them or that they, you know, that they're upsetting or anything. It's just, you know, I've moved on from these stories. Also, you have to remember, when I was high on crystal meth, I didn't remember an awful lot of what happened days later when I came down. And the stories that resonate with me, that I actually like, you know, feel in my heart that affect me emotionally today, are stories that you would probably think are pretty boring. But because they're usually, I would have a realization, or I would have this awakening in the moment. So those stories would be the stories that I think about that still serve me today. But the one story that comes to mind that I think I should tell you is, I was living in New Jersey, in Edison, New Jersey. And newly single, because my partner left me, and he had lots of reasons to leave me. And I was very late to the game when it came to drugs and alcohol. You know, I grew up on Long Island, Catholic, great family, great parents. So my drug use really started in my 30s. So when I started, I went all out. And when someone asked me, do you want to do crystal meth? The way they said it is, I don't know if it's like this, you know, in the heterosexual world, but they're like, do you want to party? And so I literally, innocently said, yeah, sure, I'm newly single, I'll party.

Speaker 2:
[36:49] I love to party.

Speaker 3:
[36:50] You know, and I really, that's what a geek I was. I thought, oh yeah, sure, I'll party. Anyway, I show up at the party, and the party included, you know, snorting crystal meth. So that, you know, quickly led to, well, not so quickly, but it led to me smoking crystal meth and then eventually, like, injecting crystal meth. And once that happens, I was off to the races. You know, once you inject crystal meth, you never want to smoke it or snort it. And so, I was...

Speaker 2:
[37:15] I used to shoot crystal meth.

Speaker 3:
[37:16] Did you really?

Speaker 2:
[37:17] In Los Angeles.

Speaker 3:
[37:18] I didn't know that.

Speaker 2:
[37:19] I had come back from rehab in Florida and I moved in with two friends of mine who were stoners. And I had planned on smoking weed, but what I didn't know was that one of my friends had gotten addicted to crystal meth like that month. So he came back just smoking meth. And I basically was like, I bet you if I start smoking meth, it'll give me an excuse to do heroin again. And I got into smoking it. And then I got into speedballing with crystal meth and dope. And then if I didn't have dope, I also just, everyone talked about shooting meth, so I just would do it. But it was like, I'm just so up naturally. It was not, it wasn't conducive to my brain.

Speaker 3:
[37:59] I've also learned that the meth out west is very different than the meth out east. I'm not sure if that's still the case. They call it crank out there a lot. And it's just, it does have a different effect because I was lucky enough to try the meth out on the west coast sometimes and then the meth out on the east coast. And I much prefer the meth out on the east coast.

Speaker 2:
[38:16] I never did meth out on the east coast.

Speaker 3:
[38:17] Oh, okay. Well yeah, you probably hit the west coast meth. And I don't know if it did this to you, but basically I felt like Superman. I could do anything in the world, no inhibitions, loved everybody, could have walked up to anybody and started a conversation with anybody. And so, let me move on to this story. So there are all these parties, right? Where all these things go on at these parties.

Speaker 2:
[38:42] What kind of things?

Speaker 3:
[38:43] You know, I saw, I've seen things that I would never want to see again. And you're in a, you know, you're in, you're either in a club or you're in somebody's apartment here in the city. And, you know, there's a lot of naked people. There's a lot of people standing around doing things that you've like only heard about.

Speaker 2:
[39:01] Like what? What kind of things?

Speaker 3:
[39:02] Well, you know, like they're, it's like these sex parties and these like, but they're not just like sex parties, they're crazy sex parties. And there's porn on in the background.

Speaker 2:
[39:11] There's the Zoom Room things.

Speaker 3:
[39:13] What's the Zoom Room?

Speaker 2:
[39:14] Well, on the gayest episode of Dopey, which was-

Speaker 3:
[39:17] Which I listened to.

Speaker 2:
[39:18] Or that maybe was on Even Gayer than the gayest episode of Dopey. The guy talks about shooting meth in these sex parties and with the porn on the background, but not only porn, there's interactive video where you're going from sex room to sex room to sex room in the room.

Speaker 3:
[39:36] Like camera stuff.

Speaker 2:
[39:37] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[39:37] Yeah. Yeah. I never, I just, I think that's never been on camera.

Speaker 2:
[39:41] Okay. Anyway. Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[39:42] Mom and dad will be happy to hear that. Never been on camera. They did have to pick me up once on the street when I was high out of my mind. That was early on. It was awful.

Speaker 2:
[39:49] Okay. So you're in this, you're in the fucking party. Everybody's fucking and sucking, shooting and smoking meth. Okay.

Speaker 3:
[39:56] And so I leave the party.

Speaker 2:
[39:57] Okay.

Speaker 3:
[39:57] Cause I got to.

Speaker 2:
[39:58] Let me ask you though. Are there like, is it like, is it like a typical kind of gay thing that's in your imagination? Like everybody's kind of got like leather speedos and fucking shackles and fake moustaches and stuff?

Speaker 3:
[40:12] Sounds like you've experienced this. That's exactly what it's like. Yeah. I mean exactly what you're picturing in your head.

Speaker 2:
[40:17] It's like that.

Speaker 3:
[40:17] That's exactly what it's like.

Speaker 2:
[40:18] Okay.

Speaker 3:
[40:19] Some nights more than others, but yes, definitely. So I left, right? Cause I got to a point where I go out of my mind. And I think everyone's out to get me. And so to take care of myself and be safe, I leave. But the problem is when I leave, I'm out on the street, right? I'm out on the street dressed really inappropriately for the time of day. What were you wearing, like a leather studio with a fake mustache? So it was like 8 o'clock and 9 o'clock in the morning. People were going to work. I'm in like a tank top and these short shorts cause it was warm out, so it was the spring or the summer. I had these boots on and wired, wired out of my mind. So I must have owned 20 pairs of sunglasses, I'm not kidding you, back in the heyday, because I would always have sunglasses on because A, I didn't want to make eye contact with you, but B, I just couldn't keep my eyes open in the light from doing all the meth. So I'm walking down the street and it was— Because your pupils get big, right? They get very big and very sensitive to light, which is why if you go to a crystal meth party, all the drapes and the curtains are drawn. It adds to the whole mystique, you know, the darkness. So I'm walking down 57th Street. Do you know that building on the corner of 57th Street, right next to what used to be Mount Sinai Roosevelt? It's on the northeast corner. It's a huge apartment building. So I'm in that building and I come out and I walk down 57th Street toward Broadway. And this is back in the days, I'm talking about the early 2000s, like this is around 2002, 2003. And AOL was a big thing. So that's where I always got my, I always made my connections via AOL, like you know, you've got mail. And I still have an AOL email account today. So I would get in the chat rooms and I would make my connections in the chat rooms and then meet up with those people. So I was really aware that I was-

Speaker 2:
[42:01] You were like an internet math trailblazer. Yeah. Gay internet AOL math trailblazer.

Speaker 3:
[42:07] It's all I did was like live on the internet. Live on the internet, show up at the guys' place.

Speaker 2:
[42:10] But it was like pre-internet but still connecting through the internet.

Speaker 3:
[42:14] The internet was around but like there weren't, you were really like connecting with people through like Comcast and AOL, like these-

Speaker 2:
[42:21] We'll say it's the early days of this phenomenon. So I love that.

Speaker 3:
[42:24] And here's an interesting thing that I thought about when I was walking over here today. When I was out there using crystal meth in 2002, 2003, intravenously, no one talked about it. So I would go to these parties, here this is important, I would go to these parties and I'd want to use with needles. And I was like shunned from the gay crystal meth community because they weren't using needles, they were smoking it. But I was introduced to it by somebody and once, like I said, once you do it that way, you don't want to go back. So I was in a very small minority of people who were shooting up crystal meth in the early 2000s. Today, it's really changed and it's really the way most of these guys that I meet today in recovery did it. But back then, so this is significant, like back then it was a big deal. So I was really out of my mind walking down 57th Street towards Broadway, keeping in mind that I find all my drugs and my connections on AOL. So this is, they were building Time Warner Center, it was called AOL Time Warner Center at Columbus Circle. Do you remember that as they were building that? It was that old convention center and it was run down, it hadn't been used for years.

Speaker 2:
[43:30] Right across from the Trump building.

Speaker 3:
[43:32] Right, right. I don't think the Trump building was there yet. Was it? I think the Trump building came after? I don't know. Anyway, so they're building.

Speaker 2:
[43:39] I know what you're talking about. It's like a mall now.

Speaker 3:
[43:40] Right, exactly. So yeah, the Time Warner Center, what is I think Time Warner Center right now, was being built. So it was a huge construction project. So I'm walking and I'm walking and I look over and I don't know why I knew, but I knew it was the AOL Time Warner Center. So something clicked in my mind that, well, I get my drugs on AOL. So this building, this they know. And whoever runs AOL is responsible. For me, shooting up crystal meth and my life being ruined because things were falling apart. I wasn't happy. And I was like, I need to get to that guy. Whoever runs AOL.

Speaker 2:
[44:16] What were you going to do to him, though?

Speaker 3:
[44:19] So I looked at the building. I'm like, how do I get, so where does the owner of a company work? On the top floor. Now, the top floor hadn't even been built yet. So in my mind, I was like, I just have to get as high as possible, like high in the building.

Speaker 2:
[44:32] And you'll find this.

Speaker 3:
[44:34] I'll find this motherfucker. And I'm going to tell him that you're ruining my life. So I looked across the street, and there was a building, like a regular apartment building across the street. And I was like, I'm going to go into that building, and I'm going to go on to the roof of that building. So, because you couldn't get, this was a construction site. I couldn't get into the AOL building. It was like a major construction site. So I walk into, now picture this. This is a really nice apartment building. I walk in in short shorts, wife beater, tank top, sunglasses on, with a backpack on my back, boots on my feet.

Speaker 2:
[45:07] You see, I hear like house music playing as you walk, like you have a speaker attached to you.

Speaker 3:
[45:12] I didn't belong in this building. It was pretty obvious. And I probably hadn't showered in days. And so I walk in the building, you know, nonchalantly, and I walk to the elevator, and I press the elevator, and I get in, and I press the top floor. And so I take the elevator all the way up to the top floor, and I get off. And I'm like, okay, how do I get to the roof? So I looked around, and there was a staircase, and I got to the staircase, and I just walked. I had no idea where I was going. So I walked and walked and walked. I finally got to the roof. No one stopped me, no one was around. And so I looked, so they had a beautiful roof. You know, it was all landscaped and manicured.

Speaker 2:
[45:49] And nobody stopped you.

Speaker 3:
[45:50] No one stopped me. So this is literally across the street from where they're building the Time Warner Center. So I'm up on the roof, and I'm looking straight in front of me was the construction project. And there are all these construction workers. And so, I had the idea that I needed to get their attention, because they needed to help me find this guy who ran AOL, so that I could give him a piece of my mind. But I felt like that building is still taller than this roof that I'm standing on. So I look around, and you know those water towers on top of these buildings? And this is a very New York thing, right? So there's a beautiful water tower, that wooden water tower right there. And so I look at the water tower, and there's a ladder. I'm like, okay, so.

Speaker 2:
[46:34] I can barely believe this story.

Speaker 3:
[46:36] I am on the top of a roof in New York City, and I'm like, well, if I climb that ladder, I'll get even closer.

Speaker 2:
[46:42] This is like, let's stop for a second. This is one of the most irrational stories I've ever heard. Like, how many totally crazy irrational stories do you have?

Speaker 3:
[46:52] A lot.

Speaker 2:
[46:53] Okay, continue. A lot.

Speaker 3:
[46:55] So I didn't even think twice, Dave. I'm on the top of a roof, and I walk over to the ladder, and I think nothing of it. And I start climbing up. And it's a little skinny wire ladder, not easy to climb, with my boots and this backpack on my back. And so I climb up, and then I get to the top of the ladder, and there's a door. And so I hang on to the ladder, and I turn around, and I see the construction site, and so I start like waving. And I start almost sort of like enticing them to like engage with me. And I don't know whether or not...

Speaker 2:
[47:29] How do you entice them?

Speaker 3:
[47:30] You know, like, I was screaming and like wailing my arms. And it was hard to tell. I mean, it was literally across the street. It wasn't far. It was like just a regular block, a city block. So you probably could have thrown a ball, and it would have hit the building. So inside, so I climb to the top of the ladder, and there's a little door. And I was like, okay, so I open the door, and I think that I'm going to crawl into the water tower, because it's dark, and it's mysterious in there. And a lot of people say this about their drug use, that it was such a dark period in their life. It really was a dark period for me. I thought that Satan and the devil were running AOL, because it was really like, when I was hanging out at these parties, there were these devil worshipers at these parties. So I was like, well, then that's who runs AOL, someone who's dark and evil like that.

Speaker 2:
[48:21] You were actually face to face with the most demonic part of drug addiction also, because it's a lot of like crazy meth psychosis that involves the devil and the most dark shit in the world.

Speaker 3:
[48:31] So you get it, right?

Speaker 2:
[48:32] Yeah, I do.

Speaker 3:
[48:33] And you're talking to a guy who grew up really conservatively as a Catholic, so it's the antithesis. Well, the devil really, really rules the rules and the equivalences. And I grew up fearing the devil.

Speaker 2:
[48:44] Exactly.

Speaker 3:
[48:45] So that's what I was drawn to in my drug use. So I opened the door and it's dark. It is pitch black. And I lean in and I couldn't see anything. I had my sunglasses on too, right? So I lean into the water tower and I pass out. And my legs are hanging out one end and it was right at my waist. I'm hanging on my waist.

Speaker 2:
[49:11] What was inside?

Speaker 3:
[49:12] Water.

Speaker 2:
[49:13] But you opened the door. Where are you in?

Speaker 3:
[49:15] I thought there was some evil mysterious body inside.

Speaker 2:
[49:17] But what was inside the door? It's not like you opened the door and water came flooding out.

Speaker 3:
[49:23] No, you opened the door and I guess the water is at a lower level.

Speaker 2:
[49:25] So you see it.

Speaker 3:
[49:26] I can hear it. I can't see it. But it smelled very humid. It was very muggy in there.

Speaker 2:
[49:33] The word is musty.

Speaker 3:
[49:34] Right, musty. It was very musty. And I pass out.

Speaker 2:
[49:39] Looking down at the water in the water tower.

Speaker 3:
[49:42] So hanging out. So if you were one of the construction guys across the street, building an AOL.

Speaker 2:
[49:47] You see this gay dude in short shorts, his ass hanging out of the water.

Speaker 3:
[49:51] You see some guy's ass hanging out of a water tower at like 9 a.m. in the morning.

Speaker 2:
[49:56] Right.

Speaker 3:
[49:57] And like with these big black boots on.

Speaker 2:
[49:58] Yeah, and these very short shorts.

Speaker 3:
[50:00] Right. So what do you think they thought? They thought I was trying to kill myself.

Speaker 2:
[50:03] Or that you were dead.

Speaker 3:
[50:04] Or that I was dead. Right.

Speaker 2:
[50:06] You know, I might assume you were dead, that you have drowned.

Speaker 3:
[50:08] You know, I often wondered, was anyone watching this happen? Was anyone watching this guy climb up this ladder, open the door to the water tower, and lean in, and then just plop there? So, next thing I know, and I don't know how long it went by, next thing I know, I'm being dragged out of the water tower by the New York City Fire Department. And I'm completely disoriented, no idea how long I had been passed out, but I still knew that I needed to get to the top of that AOL water tower. And I said to them, you need to help me get up there. And I was like-

Speaker 2:
[50:43] Hold on, hold on, hold on. You're passed out in the water tower.

Speaker 3:
[50:47] Right.

Speaker 2:
[50:48] The fire department comes, because the construction workers see you hanging out of the thing.

Speaker 3:
[50:52] Correct.

Speaker 2:
[50:53] They wake you up.

Speaker 3:
[50:54] They wake me up.

Speaker 2:
[50:55] And they don't arrest you.

Speaker 3:
[50:56] They do not arrest me.

Speaker 2:
[50:58] Okay.

Speaker 3:
[50:58] They were actually very kind.

Speaker 2:
[51:00] And concerned, I'm sure.

Speaker 3:
[51:01] Concerned, very friendly.

Speaker 2:
[51:03] Like, what are you doing with the water?

Speaker 3:
[51:04] Asking me some questions. I thought I was going to be in trouble or get arrested, because I had been arrested so many times before.

Speaker 2:
[51:11] You should have been arrested. You're on a roof, in a water tower, you know, you obviously, I was at Penn Station the other day. They made me not sit in a certain spot, because I was on private property or some shit. I mean, you're in somebody else's water tower, and they come off to somebody else's roof. What do they say?

Speaker 3:
[51:29] So they asked me those, what are you doing here? They were very concerned. Are you okay? What have you been up to? What's your name? Where are you from? And I'm thinking firemen, right? So what do firemen have on top of their trucks? Ladders. So I said, you need to get me on, I said, is your fire truck downstairs? And they're looking at me like, there's no fire, we're here to save you. And I was like, I need to get on your ladder so I can get to the top of the AOL Time Warner Center. And they're looking at me like I'm crazy.

Speaker 2:
[51:58] Well, they're not far off.

Speaker 3:
[52:00] So here's the best part. They take me down very nicely. We walk down to whatever level it was that I got off on the elevator at. We get on the elevator, go all the way down to the first floor, and then iWitness News is outside with cameras. I can see it to the iWitness News van, Channel 7, ABC, right?

Speaker 2:
[52:21] They came for you.

Speaker 3:
[52:22] They came for me because I was hanging outside of a water tower. No one knew what was going on. And so I literally had TV cameras in my face and somebody with...

Speaker 2:
[52:34] Can we see this anywhere?

Speaker 3:
[52:35] I've looked, but I didn't look too hard because I was mortified. And I don't think, they go around the city all day long trying to find news stories and stuff. They don't air everything. I don't think it was ever aired.

Speaker 2:
[52:47] Nobody ever told you they saw it?

Speaker 3:
[52:48] No one ever told me they saw it. It was a while before I told people it actually happened. But yeah, the news truck was out there and there was a lot of commotion. The police were down on the street with the news people. And then the fire people handed me over to the police and then they took me to the local precinct.

Speaker 2:
[53:04] And then what?

Speaker 3:
[53:05] And then I started to come out of it and I had to come up with a story really quick as to why I was on the water tower. And so I explained to them that I was with friends and they led me up here and they left me behind and I'd been up all night and I was just really tired. And somebody said to me, so you decided to fall asleep in a water tower. And I said, well, I didn't mean to fall asleep.

Speaker 2:
[53:26] Did you say you were drunk?

Speaker 3:
[53:27] No, I just said that I was with some people who took advantage of me.

Speaker 2:
[53:31] Wow, you're very bright. You really made the best of a terrible situation. If it was me, I would have been in jail. Somebody else might have been in Bellevue. That's a situation where you're either going to jail or institutionalize. And the fact that you could talk yourself to just being released, I command you. I think that's great.

Speaker 3:
[53:50] But I always had working in my favor is I don't look like your typical drug addict. You know, I was clean cut. I was always, you know, I spoke well. I was dressed well. Like, you know, I looks like you're normal.

Speaker 2:
[54:03] You smell good, too. He comes in, he smells very good. You smell good.

Speaker 3:
[54:05] Right. There you go. Thank you.

Speaker 2:
[54:07] And I'm sure the firemen were like, this guy smells great.

Speaker 3:
[54:10] So I don't know if they ever thought or they could figure out what happened.

Speaker 2:
[54:13] Dude, if you had said the devil's in the top of the AOL tower, I needed your ladder to get to the top. I climbed the water tower to get closer to the devil. They would have locked you up, but you were too smart for that.

Speaker 3:
[54:25] Well, they took me to the precinct and they put me on a psych hold for 24 hours.

Speaker 2:
[54:29] They did, okay.

Speaker 3:
[54:30] They put me on a psych hold for 24 hours. But as soon as I was under the, this is not the first time I've been on a psych hold. And it was like the last thing that I ever wanted to happen, because have you ever been in the psych ward?

Speaker 2:
[54:40] I haven't.

Speaker 3:
[54:41] It's boring as fuck. You're just, you're sitting around and you know, you don't really see anybody. I mean, they sit down, they ask you some questions, but pretty, they were able to ascertain pretty quickly that I was probably high out of my mind, and that I didn't really have psychotic issues. So I was there for about 24 hours, and I had to like denounce whatever I had told them, that people were out there to hurt me, that I was safe, that I had a place to go. I remember them saying, like, where are you from? And I'm like, Edison, New Jersey. That was the other thing too. They're like, how did you get to the top of this building and in a water tower, but you live in Edison, New Jersey? So I concocted a story where, you know, I met up with some people and they slipped me something, they drugged me, and I didn't think that was going to happen, and then they were these...

Speaker 2:
[55:23] That's what you said. That's what I said. Okay, that works. Now, this story is easily one of the greatest Dopey stories we've had for some time. If not one of the greatest we've ever had. But you fucked up my whole plan for the episode. Oh, no. But that's okay. I can live with it because you did come with some serious, serious, amazing Dopey. So just so the Dopey Nation knows, and you know it if you read the description of the article, one of my fantasy Dopey guests was Michael Imperioli, who plays Christopher on the Sopranos.

Speaker 3:
[55:54] I do know that.

Speaker 2:
[55:54] And I always wanted him to come and reenact the classic relapse scene in the Sopranos. And I had heard him on a podcast, and he came over to do an interview. The thing about it is he didn't get Dopey. So I called Bill up to come over to bring some Dopey with him and you did the job.

Speaker 3:
[56:16] Thank you.

Speaker 2:
[56:16] So what we're going to do now is we're going to play a long, not particularly Dopey interview with Michael Imperioli, and then we're going to come back with Bill.

Speaker 3:
[56:25] That sounds good.

Speaker 2:
[56:26] Does it?

Speaker 3:
[56:26] Yep.

Speaker 2:
[56:27] I think you've destroyed the Michael Imperioli interview with your insane amount of Dopey.

Speaker 3:
[56:32] Listen, I've heard the interview. You sent it to me last night. And Dave, you do a, you know, I told you this a second ago. You do a great job. It's a really good interview.

Speaker 2:
[56:39] All right. But it's nothing compared to this fucking short shorts on the fucking water tower. But here's Michael Imperioli. So hello and welcome to Dopey Podcast about Drugs, Addiction and Dumb Shit. And as any real Dopey fan knows, I'm a Sopranos freak. And before I even do that, I'm going to introduce my guest, because I'm shocked that he is sitting in my father's apartment. It's Michael Imperioli. Welcome to the show.

Speaker 5:
[57:04] Thanks for having me.

Speaker 2:
[57:06] And you don't know this, but when Chris and I started making the show, like, who? Chris is my friend who I started the show with.

Speaker 5:
[57:14] Oh, okay.

Speaker 2:
[57:15] And we were such, we were so, like, obviously just drug addicts and recovery, but both of us spent a ton of time on drugs and off drugs watching The Sopranos. So The Sopranos, like, became the kind of crux of many episodes, arguments, debates, and so it's very cool that you came on. You're actually the third member of The Sopranos world that's been on the show.

Speaker 5:
[57:38] Who's the other one?

Speaker 2:
[57:39] We had Lilo Brancato, who obviously had a serious drug story. You know that guy?

Speaker 5:
[57:44] Of course, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[57:46] And the comedian Modi. You know Modi?

Speaker 5:
[57:48] No.

Speaker 2:
[57:48] He played a Hasidic Jew in one of those hotel episodes.

Speaker 5:
[57:51] Oh, in those episodes, yeah. Okay.

Speaker 2:
[57:53] He was not great.

Speaker 5:
[57:54] He was not great.

Speaker 2:
[57:55] He was not great. But he was funny, because he just tore me down a lot, which was funny. I have to tell you, I'm a gigantic fan of yours. I've admired your shit forever. I just read your book, The Perfume Burned His Eyes. Burned His Eyes. I love it. Thank you. It's great. And I've been a fan of yours basically since I've ever seen you. You know, I saw you in Lean On Me, I saw you in The Basketball Diaries, obviously Goodfellas. So we're talking about like just a serious New York pedigree. And I don't think, and this might be me reaching, but I don't think the Sopranos could have been the Sopranos without you.

Speaker 5:
[58:35] Thank you. I appreciate that.

Speaker 2:
[58:37] I think, you know, you being in Goodfellas must have been a crazy trip for you.

Speaker 5:
[58:46] Yeah, I mean I was 22 or 23 I think, and I just started being in films for a year. I started acting school at 17, at the same time started trying to get work through the trade papers and going to shitty auditions and off-off Broadway shitholes and never got anything and finally got a play after like this is like now four or five years down the road and one of my classmates, we were doing a scene together, she was auditioning an agent I got a part. So, you know, Goodfellas to me for an Italian-American kid who wants to be an actor, at that time being in Goodfellas was like being in the World Series with the Yankees and you know, they're bringing you up from like the miners, you know.

Speaker 2:
[59:32] Well, that's really what it is. I mean, and we're talking about, it's like your career, it's pretty insane because Goodfellas is arguably the greatest movie of all time. You could make that argument. I could make that argument. And the Sopranos, I would make an argument that that could have been the greatest series of all time. You also got to work with Spike Lee a ton and you just, you come across as a really, really classic sort of New York character and it's beautiful, you know. It's great.

Speaker 5:
[60:01] Thank you.

Speaker 2:
[60:02] Another thing which always was so appropriate to me for our show is that you've played so many drug addicts and drug dealers. So I did a poll on Twitter last year amongst our fans, the Dopey Nation, and it was like, who do you got, what's your favorite drug addict character in anything? And you won like 90% of the vote, Christopher.

Speaker 5:
[60:24] Tremendous.

Speaker 2:
[60:25] Well.

Speaker 5:
[60:25] That's really exciting.

Speaker 2:
[60:27] Is it exciting to you?

Speaker 5:
[60:28] Yeah, I think it says a lot. You know, I mean, I don't mean that facetiously. I mean, it's a compliment that people, you know, you're talking about a specific genre of like film and television and, you know, characters. And that's why I was always attracted to those roles, because they're very dramatic. You have the stakes are very, very high. And not to pardon the pun, but the. Sure. And for an actor, the extremes of emotion, of physical states, of sanity and sanity, those things are pushed to the limit. So, you know, they were always roles that physically, I always kind of looked the part, just being like the ages I was and how in New York and came up and kind of, you know, a little street type edge, whatever, but they just, the life and death of it is very, is juicy for an actor.

Speaker 2:
[61:22] Well, I think the thing that really you always played well was this sort of ego with self-doubt built into it, which is kind of the addict condition. You know, the piece of shit at the center of the universe is what we call an addict. And you know, I also, if you trace yourself, I mean, if I trace you back to like, for example, the basketball diaries, you play that kid with cancer who used to get high, but now you're gonna die and you're in this, I mean, it's also like, it's a very rich ground of actors with What's His Face, Leonardo DiCaprio.

Speaker 5:
[61:57] One of his early roles, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[61:59] Mark Wahlberg.

Speaker 5:
[62:00] His early role. I think that might have been his first.

Speaker 2:
[62:02] He was good in that one too. He was good in that one.

Speaker 5:
[62:06] Yeah, that was a good one. And who was Lorraine Bracco?

Speaker 2:
[62:09] Yeah, and was that the first time you worked with her?

Speaker 5:
[62:13] No, I think Goodfellas was before that.

Speaker 2:
[62:15] Oh yeah, I'm sorry.

Speaker 5:
[62:15] I didn't work with her on Goodfellas, but she's in it.

Speaker 2:
[62:18] Would you see her by the table and eating and stuff, or doesn't work like that?

Speaker 5:
[62:21] No, I only worked two days in Goodfellas, and it was those specifically, only shot those scenes, those two days. Production was only limited to those scenes.

Speaker 2:
[62:31] And Goodfellas is really the first big one, right?

Speaker 5:
[62:34] Yeah. Well, Lean On Me was a big movie, but I had one line which got cut, and it was a bad experience. It was my first job. It was John Alvinson who directed Rocky. And it was overwhelming. Production was all these high school kids and all these extras in this high school. So it was a bad experience. My first time in camera was terrified, and the director had no time for me. And my line, the line was, hey, I'm going to be a star. And it got cut because I was so stiff and bad. But I'm in the movie. You can see me.

Speaker 2:
[63:04] Was that like a lesson?

Speaker 5:
[63:06] Yeah. I mean, it was a lesson in, because I had never been in front of a camera. Although by that point, I had been acting for five years, mostly in classroom with a lot of good actors in my class. Alec Baldwin was in my class at one point, actress Shawn Young, Lily Taylor at one point. A lot of good people, John Ben-Demilio, Sharon Angela. So, I mean, I felt I had chops. I had never been in front of a camera, which was a completely different experience and terrifying. And I didn't really know how to handle it. But the director didn't help me out. And Marty Scorsese, it was the opposite. He made me feel like I belonged there and treated me like an actor.

Speaker 2:
[63:51] When you get, I had heard a story about it that you thought you were auditioning for the Tommy character, the Joe Pesci character.

Speaker 5:
[63:57] All the guys were reading one of Tommy's scenes. And then the book, which everybody, I read the book.

Speaker 2:
[64:03] Wise Guy, right?

Speaker 5:
[64:04] Wise Guy. A lot of those scenes, Tommy's 22 years old. And I knew Joe Pesci, I didn't, you know, so I thought they were casting someone in their 20s, which I was. So, I thought I was auditioning for that part, because they didn't tell you what, they didn't say you're auditioning for this part, they just gave you this piece of material to prepare.

Speaker 2:
[64:23] Do you think Pesci had been cast? Was it De Niro, Pesci, Ray, you know, it was done.

Speaker 5:
[64:27] Oh yeah.

Speaker 2:
[64:27] It was done.

Speaker 5:
[64:27] I would imagine.

Speaker 2:
[64:28] That's funny. That's funny if you could have been Tommy and Tommy could have been Spider.

Speaker 5:
[64:32] There's no way that would have been a mess. Because I didn't have the experience yet to do so. But in your delusional ego of an actor, you think you're ready to be the lead in a Scorsese movie.

Speaker 2:
[64:42] Well, why not? Somebody's got to do it.

Speaker 5:
[64:45] Glad it wasn't me then. I would have fucked it up.

Speaker 2:
[64:48] When you work with somebody like Martin Scorsese, first of all, how do you know to call him Marty? Or is that just, you know it? You get there and everyone's like Marty?

Speaker 5:
[64:56] I don't remember. He may have introduced himself that way. It was funny because I heard, I told some people, I'm going to audition for it. Because first I met the casting director, Ellen Lewis, and I knew Scorsese liked improv. I just knew that from research. So in my audition with the casting person, I did a lot of improvisation. She's like, this is great, I want to bring you back to meet Marty. And I told people, I'm like, I'm going to audition for Scorsese. They're like, oh, he sits on this really high desk, and I'm imagining this judge in a courtroom, and he won't shake your hand, and he won't say much, and you got to do your stuff and get out of there, right? So I'm like, oh my god, this sounds, I walk in the office, what does he do? He walks right towards me, sticks out his hand, shakes my hand, says, how are you? He couldn't have been friendlier. It was the complete opposite of what everyone was telling me.

Speaker 2:
[65:44] Do you think they were just fucking with you?

Speaker 5:
[65:46] I don't know, who knows?

Speaker 2:
[65:46] Or do you think that he sensed it in you? Because you look the part, the second you open your mouth, you're the fucking part. I mean, you know what I mean?

Speaker 5:
[65:54] Well, not really, because when I got to the set, and like I said, he was, I don't know, he was just very friendly, and I auditioned, I read Tommy's part, so I'm playing it very much like a wise guy, a tough guy. And he said, great, ha ha, and he laughed, and he made some obscure film reference that I didn't get, but pretended I did, and the next thing they call it said, you got the part, you're playing Spider, which I didn't even, I don't even remember, and like, that's it? It was because in the book, it's really small, little scene in the book, and I'm like, at first I was almost disappointed, then I'm like, just calm down. But when I got to the set and we started rehearsing, there were no lines written, except why don't you go fuck yourself Tommy, which is the last line Spider said. It's just the second scene. But for that first scene, which we shot first and rehearsed first, there were no lines written. He just said, just bring Ray a drink. You know, bring, he called him, no, what was Ray's character's name? Henry, bring Henry a drink. We all referred to each other in character. So I brought, and then it would just, he would improvise, where's my drink? And every time it was different. When I first started rehearsing, I played him much more like a wise ass, little more of an edge and stuff. And he said, Michael, you know, I think this guy's a little slow. So I kind of, my impulse was to be stuttering and not sure of himself.

Speaker 2:
[67:20] Being nervous, because these guys are fucking killers.

Speaker 5:
[67:22] Yeah, and so that made, you know, brought out all that vulnerability, made it even more, you know, that much more touching, violent, unnecessary, unfounded, made him more of an innocent, which is why Scorsese is a genius, because he knows that's what he wants to get out of that scene.

Speaker 2:
[67:42] I remember I was, I think that movie came out, and I was 16 or something.

Speaker 5:
[67:46] 1990 it came out.

Speaker 2:
[67:47] Yeah, I was 15, 16. I saw it on 23rd Street on the east side.

Speaker 5:
[67:52] That's where I saw it.

Speaker 2:
[67:53] Is that right?

Speaker 5:
[67:53] Yeah. They had a cast, not the premiere, which I wasn't invited to, but they had a cast and crew screening that we got invited to.

Speaker 2:
[68:01] It was a big theater there.

Speaker 5:
[68:02] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[68:02] I left there with a buddy of mine who lived on the upper west side, and me and him walked all the way from 23rd and 2nd to 99th and West End, and we couldn't shut up about the movie. It's like, that's like a special thing.

Speaker 5:
[68:14] Yeah. That's like when I saw Raging Bull. I think I was 13 or 14. Me and my buddy went to see it, and we just didn't know what it was we saw. We were just like, it's one of those things that really affect you. That was one of those movies that really made me want to be an actor or be in movies.

Speaker 2:
[68:32] Right, right. I can't even, I mean, like, I never, I didn't have the thought of being an actor, like, really ever, until I had crashed and burned so many times in my life, and I came up as, like, a recovering heroin addict working in a deli, and I was like, maybe I can act, which was just a dumb...

Speaker 5:
[68:49] You worked in Cat's.

Speaker 2:
[68:50] I still work at Cat's. It's just a dumb thought that I had, because, like, whatever. It's like, I'm not an actor, you know what I mean? Like, I wasn't born to be an actor. It didn't hit me like that. One thing we do have in common is that I wanted to be a musician, though, and I know that you came up playing music in the first place.

Speaker 5:
[69:05] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[69:05] But before we even do that, I heard a backstory about that Goodfellas story, like, what had happened, do you know, like, with the glasses? Would you be so kind as to share it with the Dopey Nation?

Speaker 5:
[69:19] In the second scene, which is when Spider gets killed, you know, I was a young actor and I was very green and they had a stunt double there, a guy named Norm Douglas, who has doubled me since, over the years, he's a good guy, a great stunt man. And I said, I want to do this, I want to do the scene, I want to do the stunt, which I don't do that anymore.

Speaker 2:
[69:45] What is the stunt there?

Speaker 5:
[69:46] The stunt was he had to get shot and go kind of propelled backwards, slam into the bar, like kind of with your back, and hit the ground. Right, so, and I'd never done a stunt, so it's not as easy as you think it is, there's a precision to it. And you don't want to get hurt, so they pad you up and, but I was young and very enthusiastic, and you know, so I was like, let me do it, so they padded me up, and squibbed me up with blood packs, because I get shot three or four times in the chest. So the first take, I had a glass in my hand, because I get shot as I'm walking to the table, with a glass in my hand, but the glass was real, wasn't a breakaway glass, so when I, it was supposed to be a breakaway glass. Well, it should have been, I guess.

Speaker 2:
[70:35] In retrospect, yes.

Speaker 5:
[70:36] Yeah, because I'm doing a stunt, so anything could happen. So, we do the stunt, I go flying back, the gunshots happen, I go flying, the squibs explode, the blood, they make holes in your chest, and I hit the ground, and the glass shatters and slice open to my fingers pretty badly, and they knew right away, and someone was like, don't move, and I knew I hurt my, but there was a lot of blood everywhere because of the fake blood, and then I'm laying on the ground, and I'm looking up, and there's like Scorsese and De Niro, and looking down at me really concerned, and like, we got to get first aid, or the medic, and next thing I know is in a car being driven by one of the PAs to the hospital in Queens, so I walk into the hospital, and the first person who I see there, I say, I cut my hand, they're like, code blue, stat, get him, they put me on a, they won't listen to anything I'm saying, they put me on a gurney, the guy's trying to explain, they're not listening, because I have three bullet holes in my, and it looks so real, they're sure you just got shot. The last thing they're thinking is movies.

Speaker 2:
[71:40] So how did they figure it out?

Speaker 5:
[71:42] I'm trying to tell them, they think I'm delirious, I'm in a movie, Martin Scorsese, that, quiet, sir, quiet, and they bring me into some trauma room, start cutting open my shirt, and then they see all the squib, the wires, the blood packs, I say, I cut my hand, I'm trying to explain it to you, and then they were, then they like taped it and made me wait in the corner for-

Speaker 2:
[71:59] They got pissed off because they didn't realize it.

Speaker 5:
[72:01] For four hours till they could stitch it up, and then I went back and did another couple of takes, but I think that first take is in the movie.

Speaker 2:
[72:08] Let me ask you this, I mean, I love that story, I just think, I think anybody who's a Goodfellas fanatic would love to hear-

Speaker 5:
[72:14] Well, why it's an important story is because when they initiate you into the mafia, right, the initiation is they cut your finger, and then you bleed the blood on a picture of a saint, they burn it, so it's cutting the finger, so in some ways that was my initiation to the world of mafia movies with the capo, the two capos, De Niro and Scorsese, and me getting my fingers cut, so it was-

Speaker 2:
[72:38] And Marty the Don.

Speaker 5:
[72:39] It was some ways of a metaphor, right?

Speaker 2:
[72:41] Did you see it, when did that sort of-

Speaker 5:
[72:43] Oh, not till after Sopranos, not till years later.

Speaker 2:
[72:45] That's so far out. When you first came up for Goodfellas, were you thinking, like did you have any sort of fascination with Wise Guys or that shit, was that part of you?

Speaker 5:
[72:55] Only through the movies, really. Yeah, no, it wasn't, I mean, I was fascinated, I liked The Godfather, of course, I liked Raging Bull, I mean, what were some of the other mom movies from back then, I don't even know. I mean, especially The Godfather, I just-

Speaker 2:
[73:09] Oh, The Godfather is such a beautiful movie.

Speaker 5:
[73:11] Yeah, but I wasn't, I didn't really grow up around that, it wasn't something that fascinated me particularly.

Speaker 2:
[73:17] You grew up in Westchester, right, Mount Vernon? And there wasn't like a fucking, that thing, Mafia?

Speaker 5:
[73:23] Yeah, there was, but it wasn't something that you would necessarily see very in your face.

Speaker 2:
[73:32] The funny thing to me is just how you learned every aspect of that life just playing it, right?

Speaker 5:
[73:38] Yeah, well, when I got cast, well, that was the first mob thing I think it was. I started researching it, and I had done a bunch of mob stuff over the year. A couple of one thing, I got cast in a movie that never happened as Lucky Luciano. So I did a lot of research about the mob then, and for Goodfellas, I did a lot of research into the mob during the 60s and 70s.

Speaker 2:
[74:03] When you started coming up though as this mob actor, did the real guys start approaching you?

Speaker 5:
[74:12] Now and then.

Speaker 2:
[74:12] Was it weird? Was it scary? Did you feel like you were one of them for a second or never?

Speaker 5:
[74:17] No.

Speaker 2:
[74:17] Not even close? No.

Speaker 5:
[74:19] I mean, I've spent most of my time with artists.

Speaker 2:
[74:21] Right. Well, that's the funny thing that I want to say to the Dopey Nation. It's like, I've experienced you through the movies. I read your book, but I experienced you through the movies and through television. And Michael comes in, he's got his Buddhist necklace, and he's got a Buddhist bracelet, and he's very chill, sort of hippie artist guy.

Speaker 5:
[74:41] Yeah, and came, exactly, much more so. And I came up in experimental theater in East Village and downtown and music scene and stuff like that. I mean, yeah, much, that's my, that was my kind of, late teens was the beginning of that.

Speaker 2:
[74:58] And amongst the...

Speaker 5:
[75:00] Poets and painters and things like that.

Speaker 2:
[75:02] Sure, amongst this crew of mafia actors of De Niro and Pesci or Marty Scorsese or whatever, were those guys more artist driven, like, were they...

Speaker 5:
[75:15] Well, De Niro's father was a painter.

Speaker 2:
[75:16] Right.

Speaker 5:
[75:17] I mean, De Niro grew up in Manhattan. I mean, they kind of knew him around Little Ili, but he was much more of an artistic type, I guess.

Speaker 2:
[75:23] So when they're breaking away from a beating scene, are they discussing highfalutin artistic things and stuff?

Speaker 5:
[75:28] Well, I don't know, because when you're on the set, there wasn't a ton of small talk on the set, you know, and De Niro didn't hang out a lot on the set when he wasn't working, because I think to conserve energy is how it appeared to me. You know, there was more just like joking around.

Speaker 2:
[75:46] Sure, it's just funny. It's just a funny thought to anybody who like, because you watch it as a witness, you're just a viewer, you know what I mean? And especially as a kid, you're like, these are the toughest guys in the world.

Speaker 5:
[75:56] Well, some of the guys in the movie, especially who have smaller parts, some of them may have had one foot or another, or maybe just grew up around a lot of those guys and maybe didn't have the same kind of artistic education that I did or that Robert De Niro did as the son of an artist. His father was part of the abstract expressionist scene in New York. His father's actually mentioned in Jack Kerouac's book Desolation Angels when he's talking about the Cedar Tavern scene and de Kooning and Pollock, and he mentions Robert De Niro Sr. He doesn't call him Sr. because back then there was no Jr. That's amazing. But it's in Kerouac's Desolation Angels. Yeah, I heard you talk a lot about these writers, and I was a big fan of the Beats in my teens.

Speaker 2:
[76:40] Kerouac was your favorite of them?

Speaker 5:
[76:42] As the novelist. I mean, I loved Ginsburg's poetry and Corso's poetry. But Kerouac, I think, I always say, I think Kerouac's a very underrated writer because he's so identified with this beat, which became the Beatniks and the Hippies, which was not him. This persona and this image and stuff, which he's really, he had written a million words apparently before he even got published. You know, so he went to Columbia. He was, you know, he was a book, a worm to the nth degree. And he was extremely well written with incredible vocabulary. And his technique as a writer. People think it was just a spontaneous kind of improv thing. But his sentence construction is, you know, imagery. I mean, he was incredible. I think On the Road is not my favorite.

Speaker 2:
[77:38] I love On the Road.

Speaker 5:
[77:39] I love it. But there's other works by him that I think are far better. Like Big Sur, Tristessa, which may be my favorite of his. Even Dharma Bums.

Speaker 2:
[77:50] I love Dharma Bums, too.

Speaker 5:
[77:50] I think all those surpass On the Road in a lot of ways.

Speaker 2:
[77:54] I like On the Road because it's On the Road. It's an adventure. And I like that. And I also like linking the characters to his real friends, like who is Burroughs and who is Gainsborough.

Speaker 5:
[78:05] But those are in all of them.

Speaker 2:
[78:07] Right, right, right. But I love that.

Speaker 5:
[78:09] And his poetry is incredible. Scripture of the Golden Eternity, which are all poems about Buddhism, really shows he had a very deep, deep understanding of Buddhism.

Speaker 2:
[78:23] See, all that shit, when I was a kid, when I was in school, that shit kind of led me to drugs, like The Beats, Burroughs, Kerouac. There was a famous documentary made at that time called Pull My Daisy. Did you ever see that movie?

Speaker 5:
[78:36] Yeah, that was Robert Frank.

Speaker 2:
[78:38] And Robert Frank and this guy, and his name is escaping me, but he was a professor where I went to school. I went to school in Perchance.

Speaker 5:
[78:44] Was it Robert Frank?

Speaker 2:
[78:45] No, the other guy. Fucking hell, I'm going to kill myself. Hold on, let me look up his name.

Speaker 5:
[78:49] It wasn't Jonas Mikas, was it?

Speaker 2:
[78:50] No, it was, I can't, this is so annoying.

Speaker 5:
[78:52] Robert Frank and...

Speaker 2:
[78:55] John Cohen, John Cohen is his name.

Speaker 5:
[78:57] Oh, I don't know him.

Speaker 2:
[78:57] He's a great photographer and filmmaker.

Speaker 5:
[78:59] Well, it's not really a documentary. It's an improvisational...

Speaker 2:
[79:02] Right, but it's like, it's a documentary of the time. It's a document of that time.

Speaker 5:
[79:07] It's not like a traditional documentary where it's kind of like examining... It's kind of more recording a subject than like examining something or going into it. But it's... A lot of it's improvisational scenes that they're doing.

Speaker 2:
[79:20] You know, Robert Frank just died the other day.

Speaker 5:
[79:21] I didn't know that.

Speaker 2:
[79:22] He just died. And it's like this era... Oh, yeah. But this guy, John Cohen, was a photography teacher where I went to school to purchase.

Speaker 5:
[79:30] Yeah, my kid... Two of my kids went there.

Speaker 2:
[79:31] To purchase? That's funny. It's a great school. I mean, I... That's where I did heroin for the first time. But besides that, it's awesome.

Speaker 5:
[79:39] You're not alone, probably.

Speaker 2:
[79:40] Oh, definitely not. This John Cohen was a banjo player. He played in a band called The New Law City Ramblers, which is a very big band. But all that shit really tapped me to want to be a beat. It wanted me to be a writer. It wanted me to be a musician. But I became a drug addict. You didn't go down that path like that.

Speaker 5:
[80:00] No.

Speaker 2:
[80:02] Did you find yourself here and there experimenting with anything?

Speaker 5:
[80:05] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[80:06] Okay.

Speaker 5:
[80:06] But I was too cautious and...

Speaker 2:
[80:10] Too smart.

Speaker 5:
[80:11] Well, I just wanted to do, I wanted to create. I wanted to do art. I didn't want to, you know... I saw how it just led to the inability to do that when that became, when that took over. When that took over everything.

Speaker 2:
[80:29] Well, that's a rational kind of opinion.

Speaker 5:
[80:32] It was rational based on seeing it firsthand and seeing it destroy people and just knowing, you know, it's like... Somehow I had the grace to, you know, avoid destroying myself through that.

Speaker 2:
[80:48] Well, it is grace, you know, and I want to jump around a little bit.

Speaker 5:
[80:51] It is grace because it's not necessarily just a rational decision.

Speaker 2:
[80:56] What do you mean by that?

Speaker 5:
[80:58] Because I think a lot of people who get addicted and destroyed by drugs are very smart and are very rational and are just... And very beautiful human beings too. And it's just the degree to which that disease takes, you know, manifests, I think.

Speaker 2:
[81:15] I didn't see it coming. You know what I mean?

Speaker 5:
[81:17] I don't think anybody does.

Speaker 2:
[81:19] I didn't see it coming and I didn't know how hard it would be to get out of it. And it's a miracle that I didn't get killed. And it's a miracle that I'm on the other side of it, you know?

Speaker 5:
[81:28] Yeah, I mean, if you're, I mean, I see everything through the lens of New York. If you were in New York in the 80s and 90s in any kind of artistic circle or downtown circles, you saw tons of it, all of us did. If you were in going to clubs or hanging with artists or hanging downtown or working in bars and restaurants like I did, you saw this. It was the goodest, of course. And among famous or very, I was just starting studying acting and stuff when Basquiat died and you saw it in front of you. I was lucky because I fell in with a lot of good peers and a lot of good people who inspired each other and pushed each other to be good at what we were doing and experiment, produce our own. I started producing theater when I was like 21. I didn't even know what I was doing. We were like, let's put this up. Let's find a theater and scrape or borrow money. This guy's mother's got money and just put it up. I had a lot of people from my acting class who went on to do that and we inspired each other, some of whom I still work with today.

Speaker 2:
[82:38] I find that that kind of becomes a drug in a weird way. For me, the process of creating now, it totally supplanted the process of...

Speaker 5:
[82:50] That's very positive. It reminds me of the Simpsons did an episode where it was the behind the music episode and it talks about how Homer gets hooked on drugs from doing all these...

Speaker 2:
[83:03] The Fog.

Speaker 5:
[83:03] The Fog. And then he's like, fame was like a drug, but what was really like a drug were the drugs.

Speaker 2:
[83:09] Yeah, it's classic.

Speaker 5:
[83:10] I love that.

Speaker 2:
[83:11] You were on The Simpsons too, right?

Speaker 5:
[83:13] I was. Yeah, I played some... It wasn't one of my favorite episodes.

Speaker 2:
[83:16] Well, The Simpsons, I think... My daughter... Like, I pushed The Simpsons on my daughter. I have a nine-year-old and I have a one-and-a-half-year-old. And I won't watch an episode of The Simpsons past season 11. I just won't do it. I don't want to put myself through it.

Speaker 5:
[83:31] Yeah, I mean, no slight to them because making 500 episodes of something great is impossible.

Speaker 2:
[83:36] Well, but their problem was that it was all the same year. Nobody gets older, nothing can change. You know, Lisa's always going to be fucking in third grade or second grade.

Speaker 5:
[83:46] So eventually the well starts to...

Speaker 2:
[83:49] It has to, it has to. Now, I want to jump around with you because I don't want you to have to go and not talk about this amazing book you just wrote. When did you write the book?

Speaker 5:
[83:59] I started writing in 2013.

Speaker 2:
[84:02] And now it's 2019, so six years ago you started The Perfume Burned His Eyes.

Speaker 5:
[84:06] Yeah, it was released in 2018. I got, I started working with my publisher in 2017. So I guess I finished it around 2016.

Speaker 2:
[84:18] Right on, and I loved it, it's a novel, it's your first novel.

Speaker 5:
[84:22] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[84:23] And when you started acting, were you, was it acting, acting, acting, or were you thinking I want to write too?

Speaker 5:
[84:29] A couple of years after I started writing. You know, the circles I was in, people did a lot of things, but like the punk scene, post-punk scene, no wave scene, New York in the 80s, it was very much cross-pollinization and a lot of art forms, you know. So I was playing music, I started writing not long after that. I didn't, I went till I was 30, and I would move every year, you know, apartments, sometimes twice in a year, and I would move the, and I would always get these notebooks, notebooks, and after, by the time I was 30, I had a stack of notebooks with ideas, scripts, half of a script, half of a book, crap, and it was, and one day I threw it all away.

Speaker 2:
[85:08] Wow.

Speaker 5:
[85:10] Cause I, I, I, I realized I had nothing to say with all this, and then I started working on a project that became Summer of Sam with a writer named Victor Calicio, and then realized what could be said through that, and that was the first time something actually finished.

Speaker 2:
[85:28] That's a, that's a dark movie. You know, it's a great movie.

Speaker 5:
[85:31] Oh, it's a dark movie.

Speaker 2:
[85:32] But it's very dark, and like that dude, it's about this punk, punk rock guy from Bay Ridge, from the Bronx, but there's no, doesn't live in Brooklyn? Bronx, yeah. Forgive me.

Speaker 5:
[85:44] Club section of the Bronx.

Speaker 2:
[85:45] And he, you know, his friends turn on him because he doesn't want to be like his friends anymore.

Speaker 5:
[85:51] Well, his friend, what happens is, and this is true, now, it happened in the Bronx, and it happened where I grew up, in Mount Vernon. Because the murders happened in the Bronx, and in Queens, and people, the cops were going on TV saying, it may be, he probably lives among you. He might be the guy who lives down the street in the basement of an, in an apartment in the basement, who doesn't talk to people. So people started looking at their neighbors, and some of these neighbors, they started making lists of people who could be the son of Sam. So anything that made you out of the ordinary, you had a bad divorce, you beat your wife, you were a Vietnam vet who was now on drugs, you know. Anybody who was the other is accused, is suspected. My cousin got beaten almost to death by guys he grew up with who, I don't even know why they thought he was the killer. It wasn't because he was a punk rocker.

Speaker 2:
[86:43] Was that the inspiration behind that whole thing?

Speaker 5:
[86:45] No, because Victor started writing this story before, on his own, and when I read an early draft of it, I really related because of that reason. And then we started writing together, and then eventually got it to spike, and it got made. But, so, some of this really happened. It was a very tense and disturbing period of time in New York.

Speaker 2:
[87:06] Well, you seem to be focused on that sort of era, because this book, The Perfume Burned His Eyes, takes place around the same time.

Speaker 5:
[87:12] Around the same time, and I was really not, I was 76 when the book starts, I was 10, so I wasn't in the city. I would come in maybe to go see the circus or something, the Empire State Building. I wasn't in Manhattan all that much. I was in the Bronx a lot, in Mount Vernon, which is where my family was. So, but I just, I romance about that period of time. And there's some of the movies that I love that were made there and some artistically that was happening here that I still have just a nostalgia for.

Speaker 2:
[87:42] It's insane if you think about it. I mean, when you walk around Manhattan now and everything is fresh and cold, just salad, smoothie, fucking shit everywhere. Everything costs a million dollars. Everything is the same font. An apartment is like, this apartment is cheap because it's still public housing. But like every apartment is so expensive.

Speaker 5:
[88:01] If it wasn't, it would be ridiculous.

Speaker 2:
[88:02] Yeah, exactly. But the point is like in that era, the city was dangerous. Artists could live cheap.

Speaker 5:
[88:10] I lived on Mineta Street when I was 22 years old and I worked in a shitty restaurant. I lived in Greenwich Village. I don't know what that apartment would be. My girlfriend and I lived there. She worked in a restaurant. I worked in a restaurant. I was making not that much money and I lived in the village.

Speaker 2:
[88:29] And not only that, it's New York. You know what I mean? It could be New York as Beirut. It could be New York where you get jumped every once in a while, because I did growing up here. I would get jumped every once in a while.

Speaker 5:
[88:39] It happened.

Speaker 2:
[88:40] But it creates the possibility for action, be it creative. I mean, so many cool scenes were born here.

Speaker 5:
[88:47] It was very fertile ground. And you know, the unique thing, pretty much I only was in Manhattan. I never lived in Brooklyn or Queens or anything and I didn't really spend much time out there. I was here in Manhattan. The neighborhoods in Manhattan, like Chelsea, it was very, very, very different than the village. And it was completely different than the Upper East Side and completely different than the East Village and the Lower East Side. They all had very distinct characters. You didn't have to be wealthy to live there. You had a lot of artists, poets, failed artists, crazy artists, playwrights. And what happened with gentrification is the homogeneity of Manhattan, which in some ways is one of the most disappointing things to me.

Speaker 2:
[89:31] The fucked up thing is the only way that it goes the other way is total catastrophe. The only way that like all of these corporations move out of New York is like a flood or some horrible thing. Like 9-11 for a second, you didn't know that the city was going to come back. You know, there was a moment there where things you didn't know.

Speaker 5:
[89:53] It's a really great book about, I don't know if you've read it, Vanishing New York. Did you read that by Jeremiah Moss?

Speaker 2:
[89:58] No.

Speaker 5:
[89:58] It was started as a blog and he was just documenting like his favorite deli went out of business or his favorite bookstore went out of business.

Speaker 2:
[90:06] Is it a photo book, though?

Speaker 5:
[90:07] No, the blog had photos and was specifically about places, but the book is a history of gentrification that starts really in early 20th century Manhattan. It's fascinating to see the real gentrification on steroids actually is not under Giuliani as much as it was under Bloomberg. Bloomberg really wrote the ticket for corporations.

Speaker 2:
[90:29] That was the difference.

Speaker 5:
[90:30] For developers to really just have whatever they want.

Speaker 2:
[90:34] They can slice up the pie.

Speaker 5:
[90:36] The book, if you're interested in this topic, it's a very, very well researched and fascinating look at this city and what happened over time.

Speaker 2:
[90:45] It's crazy because when I was a kid, corporations weren't allowed to plant the flag. There were only mom and pop stores around.

Speaker 5:
[90:52] And that's another thing. In Times Square, there were mom and pop stores. When I got here in 83.

Speaker 2:
[90:57] Yeah. But your book focuses on that kind of era, 1976. It's about a kid who moves from Brooklyn to Manhattan.

Speaker 5:
[91:06] From Jackson Heights, Queens.

Speaker 2:
[91:07] I'm sorry, I get all these neighborhoods confused.

Speaker 5:
[91:09] From a blue collar, working class environment.

Speaker 2:
[91:10] I've confused three boroughs during this interview. It's sad.

Speaker 5:
[91:13] So he's brought up in a very blue collar, working class environment. And his father and grandfather die within the space of like six months. And his mother winds up inheriting a little money that she didn't expect and decides to take him out of his neighborhood school and just him and her move to the east side of Manhattan, which is only maybe two, three miles away from where he grew up, but is a completely different planet, basically.

Speaker 2:
[91:36] Even in 1976. You know, to move from Queens.

Speaker 5:
[91:40] Especially in 1976.

Speaker 2:
[91:42] Right, right, right.

Speaker 5:
[91:43] Maybe even more then than now, in a way.

Speaker 2:
[91:46] Because Queens was like just a different sort of planet than 50th Street. 52nd Street is he moved to? Something like that?

Speaker 5:
[91:53] East 50th, first or first 52nd?

Speaker 2:
[91:55] One or the other.

Speaker 5:
[91:55] I forget.

Speaker 2:
[91:56] But the kicker, and I could eat that kind of shit up because I love reading about old New York too, but the kicker is he moves into the same building that Lou Reed happens to live in.

Speaker 5:
[92:06] Right.

Speaker 2:
[92:07] Which is just like...

Speaker 5:
[92:08] Which Lou, during that period, did live on the Upper East Side, which I always found, he lived with a transgendered woman, her name is Rachel, and there's photos of them together, she's on one of the album covers, and so I knew that, which is not out of the ordinary for, if you know Lou's work, but what I did find very strange is that he lived on East 51st and like first in some kind of posh kind of building, because he's always known for living on the Bowery, he lived on Christopher Street, he lived on West 11th Street in the last years of his life, and he was shooting speed, he was a very druggy period of his life, staying up for days, but very prolific, fertile, creative period. I always found that fascinating. I started writing the book because my son was 16 and I just wanted to relate to that mine. Lou wasn't in the book, I was just writing this story about this kid in 1976, and three months into the writing, Lou died. And besides being a big fan and him being a big inspiration, I had become friends with him the last in a dozen or so years of his life. So his death hit me on a number of levels and then all of a sudden I had the idea of like, what if I put the kid and Lou together somehow and that's how the book was born.

Speaker 2:
[93:24] Well, it's a great twist. You know, it's also just like, it's kind of like the idea of fan fiction. Like you know that this guy exists, like what if he did this? And I think you really, I didn't know Lou Reed. I always thought sometime in my life I'd get to meet him but it never happened. But it really felt like him from, you know, I was such a fan of his early stuff of The Velvet Underground and that whole period and how he sang and how he wrote and it was so plain but still so nuanced. You know, that's what I love about Lou. And I also love how much he loved early rock and roll and really just integrated it into the flash of the 70s. Like he would have the flash with the primitive, with the poetry and it was this great weaving.

Speaker 5:
[94:10] He was so literary because he really brought, to me what he did that was interesting, he brought a real literary sense to rock and roll. Very different way than Dylan did. Dylan...

Speaker 2:
[94:22] Lou Reed was super, it was casual and also satirical. Dylan was satirical too. It just was a different approach. You know, I loved it like in a, when Lou would talk to himself on the track. Like he would say, like in Temptation Inside of Your Heart and he would be like, I can talk to myself if I want to. And he'd say one thing, and he'd say another thing, and he'd be like, oh that doesn't sound like Martha and the Vandellas to me. And like, just he's like really, he seems like such a lovely dude, but then what you read about him, he was like such a dick to so many people at the same time.

Speaker 5:
[94:54] Well especially when he was doing a lot of drugs.

Speaker 2:
[94:56] Yeah, it happens to the best of us.

Speaker 5:
[94:58] In the early part of his life. But yeah, I mean Take No Prisoners is, you know that live album? It was recorded at the bottom line, I think in 79. It's my favorite because he talks through half of it, and it's hysterical, and he's, you know, it's probably still using drugs at that point, but it's just very funny and very revealing in some ways. But the performances of the songs are incredibly passionate and intense, and it's really, it's a fascinating document of him.

Speaker 2:
[95:32] Well, I think that the listeners of this show would really get a kick out of your book because like this guy, the character Matthew, He's very innocent. He's innocent, but he gets put through hell in this book.

Speaker 5:
[95:44] He does, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[95:45] He falls in love with this, I mean, I don't want to give anything away, but he falls in love with this woman, this young girl who's like way more mature than her years, and she, turns out she's like a sex worker, and she's also like a wiccan sort of dark.

Speaker 5:
[95:59] And brilliant and artistic, and everything that he kind of feels he's not, but he was inspired by. I mean, the premise really is to, the kid kind of explores all the totems of manhood with this quasi-father figure who's almost like a shaman. That's the figure of Lou. He's the artist. So the kid smokes for the first time. He goes to a bar for the first time. He gets drunk for the first time. He has sex for the first time. He does drugs for the first time, falls in love for the first time all in this concentrated period when he's under the influence of this great artist.

Speaker 2:
[96:36] When his life falls apart, though, that's like the... It's very powerful, but it's also something I could really relate to. In the end of the book where he totally hits bottom, but also just all of the little bottoms along the way with the amplifier and the truck and the accident and then having to...

Speaker 5:
[96:54] He drives for the first time. Another totem of manhood, you know.

Speaker 2:
[96:57] What was his first drug experience in the book? I don't remember that scene well.

Speaker 5:
[97:02] Well, he gets drunk in the bar as the first time, but it's when he, him and Veronica go to this guy's apartment.

Speaker 2:
[97:08] Oh, yeah, yeah, with the coke. Right?

Speaker 5:
[97:11] He, they do... I think it's... I'm spacing out. I think they do acid or some kind of laced pot.

Speaker 2:
[97:21] Okay, okay. In the end of the book, remind me and forgive me because I was so caught up in so many other aspects of you that I didn't get to the heart of the thing. Is he in recovery at the end, Matthew?

Speaker 5:
[97:35] At the very end? Yeah. When we go to the 2013?

Speaker 2:
[97:38] Yeah, in California.

Speaker 5:
[97:39] The whole book takes place from 76 to... Right, end of 77, 78. And then the last chapter jumps to 2013, three days after Lou died. And now the guys in his late 50s reflect, you know, and he hears Lou's music being played on the radio because there was a lot of his music on the radio after he died. No, he's not in recovery. To me, what happened is he became an artist in some discipline. So, Lou's was almost initiating him as an artist.

Speaker 2:
[98:17] He gave him the bass.

Speaker 5:
[98:18] Yeah, that's the other level. And the kid now is a man, and the kid is very, like I said, somehow innocent, very kind of passive in a lot of ways and just like watching and observing and afraid to really assert his own opinions of things. So, the last chapter, I try to have him be kind of very opinionated.

Speaker 2:
[98:39] Right.

Speaker 5:
[98:39] And very...

Speaker 2:
[98:40] Assured, in a way.

Speaker 5:
[98:41] Yeah, and very kind of, you know, like he's different than he is as a kid and there's some evolution. But I wouldn't say he's in recovery, no.

Speaker 2:
[98:49] He says something that I always found interesting, because as a fan of Lou Reed's, like I was obviously not like taken by the hand and did heroin because Lou Reed did heroin. But it wasn't that far off, you know what I mean? Like he was just one of the people that I admired that was into it. You know, you listen to some of his songs, you listen to Waiting for the Man, you listen to heroin, you feel that vibe. And I was easily, you know, influenced, exactly. And in the end of the book, you have this passage describing Lou drinking a beer, a tecate. And Lou is this big recovery guy, you know what I mean? Like that was when I first started coming around recovery, they'd be like, oh, maybe you'll see Lou Reed. You know, maybe he's at, there's some famous meeting called the Red Door. I heard Lou Reed's always at the Red Door. And I read that, and I was like, that's interesting. Like, had you read that? Or did you just want to throw it in there that he could have a beer?

Speaker 5:
[99:49] It was before I knew him, I saw him at a party drinking a beer.

Speaker 2:
[99:52] Wow.

Speaker 5:
[99:52] But like I say in the book, I had heard on the street, and I say in the book, I heard that he was anonymously.

Speaker 2:
[100:00] You want to read that part.

Speaker 5:
[100:03] So, you know, because in AA, you're not supposed to say anything, who you see there, who you do, but obviously that doesn't apply to famous people.

Speaker 2:
[100:11] Well, it does, I mean, I didn't see it.

Speaker 5:
[100:13] I had heard he was in AA, so someone from AA must have told somebody that he was there.

Speaker 2:
[100:17] Right, but luckily you weren't in it, so you didn't do the wrong thing. I lost the spot.

Speaker 5:
[100:22] No, I didn't do the wrong thing.

Speaker 2:
[100:24] No, I lost the spot.

Speaker 5:
[100:26] So he doesn't, you know, so the kid after he, him and Lou kind of part ways in the book, and the kid never really became friends with him again, you know, but he saw him in a way that he, uh...

Speaker 2:
[100:43] It's my fault. Hold on.

Speaker 5:
[100:44] No, no, I got it right here.

Speaker 2:
[100:45] All right, cool. Here, wait for the siren. Hold for siren. Is that good direction?

Speaker 5:
[100:53] That's good direction.

Speaker 2:
[100:53] Thank you. There you go. The guys who listen to the show always think the cops are after them when they're listening to the show and they hear a siren. That's horrible, isn't it? Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[101:03] Fuck them with people's heads.

Speaker 2:
[101:05] Fuck the siren. Just read it. I don't care.

Speaker 5:
[101:07] So, he says, the story told here closing with me on the edge of manhood, he's talking about the 70s, is as much yours as it is mine. So now the guy's talking to Lou basically, a little Lou's dead. Its end is where we parted and it would be at least 15 years until I'd see you again. I didn't mention who I was or that we'd met before because I didn't expect you'd remember or recognize me. You didn't. So I expressed my admiration as a fan. I'm pretty sure it was a post-premiere party for a film and I'm certain it was at El Tediz or El Internacional. I don't recall what incarnation the joint was at the time. You were standing at one of the floor-length urinals in the men's room. After following you in, I know, I stood and peed with an empty drain between us to be polite. Looking straight ahead at the white tile wall, I said, I was listening to you this afternoon. Magic and loss, it's a masterpiece. You glanced over for a little second, and after assessing if I posed any threat, you turned back to the wall and said kindly, That's pretty cool. Then you zipped up and walked away. A little while later, I watched you drinking a can of tecate at the bar. This surprised me because word on the street was that you were anonymously sober. Standing next to my recovering friend, whose guest I was that evening, I pointed out the beer. He shrugged and said, Junkies, man, they have a sobriety all their own. I didn't understand what he meant. By then, you were a long way from junk or speed or whatever it was that possessed you way back when. And to reduce you to junkie, like once a junkie, always a junkie, well, for my friend, I apologize.

Speaker 2:
[102:49] Yeah, I love that. And also, from where I'm coming from, I wouldn't judge anybody for doing anything in their life.

Speaker 5:
[102:56] Me neither.

Speaker 2:
[102:57] Or whatever the case may be.

Speaker 5:
[102:58] Only cruelty.

Speaker 2:
[102:59] Well, exactly. And that's something that I heard in terms of your Buddhist practice. And I know that I said this is going to be 45 minutes and we're at 46 minutes. And I didn't do all the stuff that I...

Speaker 5:
[103:12] I'm good till five.

Speaker 2:
[103:13] All right, cool. I liked hearing you talk about Buddhism on that podcast. And I got into Buddhism when I was on drugs. So you can't really get into anything when you're on drugs. And then when I...

Speaker 5:
[103:25] Except drugs.

Speaker 2:
[103:26] Yeah, except drugs and stealing and robbing supermarkets for cookies to eat and stuff. But fucking, there was a book that I got one of the first times I got sober, which was a Technohan book, which was...

Speaker 5:
[103:39] Oh, I'm reading his new one right now called No Mud, No Lotus.

Speaker 2:
[103:42] He's such a beautiful writer. Beautiful. And he wrote, I think, The Tao of Sobriety or something like that.

Speaker 5:
[103:49] He wrote that, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[103:50] I think so. About sobriety. And it was just where mindfulness and being sober meet. And when I heard you on this other podcast, you were talking about how, first of all, how the most important reason that you were a Buddhist was because it's to be compassionate and to be kind and to do kind of the right thing.

Speaker 5:
[104:11] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[104:12] And that's really all the tenets of 12 Step. It's to do the next right thing. To keep your side of the street clean. And I just thought, what a cool intersection that is. Right.

Speaker 5:
[104:24] Well, the 12 Steps are spiritual principles, really. It's about the 12 Steps as having had a spiritual awakening. So it's really, I don't think it's any accident that they intersect, right?

Speaker 2:
[104:37] And I think that's also probably one of the reasons that you, I mean, you've had a very blessed life, and you've had a life that's pretty shiny and sweet. You know?

Speaker 5:
[104:48] Yeah, I'm, you know, I have, I've had, I've, you know, for the most, why I would attribute that to, I grew up with very loving parents and grandparents and my brother, and then met really great friends and created my own family, my wife, and it was wonderful, and kids and stuff. So I attributed to that.

Speaker 2:
[105:11] How much of Matthew is you?

Speaker 5:
[105:15] None of the facts, like none of what happens in the book happened to me. I relate to him emotionally, you know, I mean.

Speaker 2:
[105:26] Seeking and like kind of being insecure in a way. Yeah, like all teenagers are though.

Speaker 5:
[105:33] I mean, you know, why I wanted to write about teenage years is this is such a vulnerable time, you know, where you're so unsure of everything, and you're not a kid and you're not an adult, and you want to be an adult, but you want to be a kid, and you know, all these things that all of a sudden you want to start to experience, it's just you're going in with such, you're so unformed in a lot of ways, you know? And so, you know, I've had a, I mean, my life hasn't been without darkness and tragedy, like everybody's, but I've been around really great people, and I've been fortunate to cultivate really good relationships, I would say, out of anything.

Speaker 2:
[106:14] Well, that's beautiful, and they say one of, there's a big writer now who always talks about connection being the opposite of addiction. You know, an addict is without these connections.

Speaker 5:
[106:25] Yeah, because with drugs and alcohol and like being possessed by those things, you can't really be, mindfulness goes out the window, really.

Speaker 2:
[106:33] Yeah, but I mean, it's funny because in the beginning, you feel like it is a path towards spiritualness, like you take LSD and you think you're having a spiritual experience, and maybe you are.

Speaker 5:
[106:42] But that is not my, I mean, kind of ecstatic, kind of peak experience is not necessarily mindfulness. It's a different thing. I mean, mindfulness in terms of day to day life, you know, like being aware of how you want to behave in the world toward others and stuff, like addiction is the opposite, you're looking in, it's just about what you want, what you're doing.

Speaker 2:
[107:03] Well, I think that's what like the goal of 12 Step Living is to like look at your, at what you're doing, like I heard you on that podcast talking about bearing witness to your thoughts, you know, and I had never even heard that phrase before. Yeah, through meditation. So how often do you meditate every day?

Speaker 5:
[107:22] Almost, sometimes not every day, but what I try to do, cause you call meditation a practice, practice being, practicing at being mindful in life, you know what I mean? It's easy to be enlightened on the cushion, try doing it on the subway, you know what I mean? That's when it's really, you know, life, try doing it when your kid, you know, pisses you off. Yeah, you know, I mean, I could, that's what I mean, it's like, bringing those things into life, you know, and Buddhist principles, I believe, we're a lot more connected, we are interconnected, this is what we are, not an aspect of what we are, it really, truly is what we are.

Speaker 2:
[108:08] Right, it's a beautiful idea. I feel like now that I'm sober, I could get into Buddhism and a whole other way.

Speaker 5:
[108:14] I would hardly endorse.

Speaker 2:
[108:17] I'm going to give it a shot, but you have to know that like, I probably saw The Sopranos the first time, when did it come out?

Speaker 5:
[108:26] It first aired in 1999.

Speaker 2:
[108:29] So I think I probably saw it.

Speaker 5:
[108:31] January 1999.

Speaker 2:
[108:31] Sometime that year, and the first episode I saw was when Tony was taking Meadow to college.

Speaker 5:
[108:37] Yeah, that was like the second or third episode. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[108:41] And I was like, hmm, what's this kind of thing? And then somehow I got into it, and to tell you that I've probably seen the series, the whole series 10 times is like.

Speaker 5:
[108:53] Really?

Speaker 2:
[108:53] I think I've seen it 10 times. It's fucked up, because I would watch it getting high, I would watch it getting sober, it was like played in reruns on Bravo for a couple years, and I would sit there and I'd watch the reruns. Like, I'm the kind of.

Speaker 5:
[109:05] You've seen it way more than I have.

Speaker 2:
[109:07] I know, so it's kind of embarrassing. But, oh fuck, that's the housekeeper. So my dad's housekeeper came, and I sent her away, because I'm a dick. And we're talking about the Sopranos now, and the Dopey Nation knows like I'm a Sopranos freak. I've seen the whole thing probably 10 times, and I've seen, like I was telling you.

Speaker 5:
[109:32] Which I said was very extreme.

Speaker 2:
[109:34] It's sick, in a way. But the fucked up thing is I'm watching it again now. I watch it as a relaxation tool.

Speaker 5:
[109:42] No, I understand that. Something that's very familiar sometimes can be very comforting. Like, you feel safe around those people. I mean, you know it. To expect you know what's going to happen, there's some safety in that. I get that.

Speaker 2:
[109:55] I actually did a web series at Katz's years ago. And Joe Gannascoli was my big guest on that. And I used to wait on the guy that played Hesh at Katz's. He was there every week. And he was a sweet guy, you know?

Speaker 5:
[110:09] He's a sweetheart.

Speaker 2:
[110:10] I think he got smart and stopped eating there as we could live. But I just used it as a real relaxation technique. And we had started talking about these other shows that I loved the same way The Wire, Breaking Bad, Mad Men. And Michael, to my dismay, said he had never seen any of them.

Speaker 5:
[110:28] I've never seen Breaking Bad. And I never saw The Wire. And I never saw, I saw The Pilot of Mad Men. That was it.

Speaker 2:
[110:35] So when you wrote for The Sopranos, you were never thinking, I want to be a TV writer.

Speaker 5:
[110:40] I just wanted to write for The Sopranos. I wasn't thinking in terms of career.

Speaker 2:
[110:44] Did you, you wrote a bunch of classic episodes. Did you, did you like pick, like for example, in the episode where Christopher gets shot, you wrote that he has risen?

Speaker 5:
[110:53] I pitched that. So after we shot the first season, I fell in love with the show and all the characters. And I just wanted to write for it. Summer Sam had just been shot and hadn't been released. So I wrote a spec script between season one and season two and gave it to David. I had Christopher O'Dean having this after life experience and Dave was like, oh, we can, because I like what you're doing, we can use that after life thing after Chris, well I'm planning Christopher getting shot in season two. So that's how I started writing for it.

Speaker 2:
[111:22] When they made Christopher a writer, was that because they knew what you were about?

Speaker 5:
[111:27] Well, in the pilot, which was written before I was cast, he has a line to Tony and he says, my cousin Gregory's girlfriend is a development girl in Hollywood and she said I could sell my story and make money. So he had aspirations towards Hollywood. Whether or not they went down the writer's route because I was writing, I'm not really sure. Maybe he had a little of both there.

Speaker 2:
[111:49] And when you have Christopher struggling trying to write and you're like beating, Christopher's beating the computer. Is it like channeling your own passion through this instrument which is not you? Like does it connect back to you when you do that?

Speaker 5:
[112:07] I mean in some ways because you're always going to bring your own experience into your acting. You know you try to relate as closely as you can. But there was clear lines between me and Christopher.

Speaker 2:
[112:19] Of course.

Speaker 5:
[112:20] It was never blood.

Speaker 2:
[112:21] You know what? Let me ask you this though. When I listened to that podcast, it was, who is Joe Arthur, Joseph Arthur? Who is this?

Speaker 5:
[112:27] He's a musician.

Speaker 2:
[112:28] Do you like him?

Speaker 5:
[112:30] I do like him.

Speaker 2:
[112:30] He's really good. Did he interview without a shirt or he wore the shirt for the interview?

Speaker 5:
[112:34] No, he had a shirt on.

Speaker 2:
[112:35] Everything I've seen with him, he's been shirtless. Afterwards, I like started to check him out.

Speaker 5:
[112:39] I want to see him. I've never seen him play live, but Jesse Malin, do you know who Jesse is?

Speaker 2:
[112:44] I know the name.

Speaker 5:
[112:45] Jesse Malin has a new album out and he's doing a concert tomorrow night at Webster Hall and Joseph is going to be playing with him. But Joseph, when he was pretty young, in his early 20s, he caught the attention of Peter Gabriel.

Speaker 2:
[112:58] Right.

Speaker 5:
[112:58] And Peter Gabriel had a record label at the time and they signed him when he was really young. So he had, you know, so he kind of came into and Peter, when Peter was thinking of signing him, he brought Lou Reed to a concert that Joe did at Fez, which is not there anymore.

Speaker 2:
[113:17] Sure, I know that place. Cafe Fez, yeah.

Speaker 5:
[113:19] He told me this story that he was like, you know, Lou was one of his, there he is, he might have been 22 at the time doing this concert. As Lou's in the front with a digital tape recorder, tape recording the thing. He was friends with Lou, but he's a great songwriter and singer and musician.

Speaker 2:
[113:36] Well, he asked you at the end of the interview, like, have you struggled with addiction ever? And you said yes.

Speaker 5:
[113:44] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[113:46] But you don't want to tell him.

Speaker 5:
[113:46] I'll say yes again. I don't particularly like hearing people's, you know, when celebrities start talking about, first of all, it's such a hackneyed story, like Rocket Man, that movie. I mean, the rock star who has it all, and then he gets hooked on drugs, and then he hates it, you know.

Speaker 2:
[114:13] The thing that really sucks about that movie is why don't they use fucking Elton John's voice? Like, why do you think you want to hear another musician?

Speaker 5:
[114:19] But just that story, that rise and fall, and it's like, I'll never read another rock biography. I mean, I don't want to read anybody's rock biography. I mean, Paddy's, I think, was an exception because it was much more of a memoir of a time and a friendship than it was like the rise and fall and the drugs and the addiction. So, you know, I met someone who was starting to tell me about the drug, you know, as I'm not really interested, you know, I'm really just not that interested in it. And so I don't, you know, I also don't, there's certain things I want to keep to myself.

Speaker 2:
[114:57] That's fair.

Speaker 5:
[114:57] I'll be honest.

Speaker 2:
[114:58] All right, we're going to play a little game. We're going to play, this is my, in the, when me and Chris started making the show, there was an episode that, there was an episode of the Sopranos where Christopher relapses in the car with the Corky character. Okay, and my dream back then, because I didn't think you would ever come on the show, but I thought I could get the actor that played Corky to come on the show.

Speaker 5:
[115:23] Who is that, do you know?

Speaker 2:
[115:24] No, but I tweeted with him and he said, I'll come on your show, but I won't reenact the scene. Would you reenact the scene?

Speaker 5:
[115:34] No.

Speaker 2:
[115:34] You won't reenact the scene?

Speaker 5:
[115:35] No, I can reenact the scene.

Speaker 2:
[115:37] No, I have the script. I wrote it out. I'll be you, you be him.

Speaker 5:
[115:41] Oh, I'll be him?

Speaker 2:
[115:42] Yeah, I'll be you, you be him.

Speaker 5:
[115:44] Alright, let me see it.

Speaker 2:
[115:44] Alright, it's two pages.

Speaker 5:
[115:49] Yeah, well you said reenact the scene and I'm assuming you mean, okay, so I'll be Corky. You're Corky. Alright, I could do that.

Speaker 2:
[115:55] Alright, cool.

Speaker 5:
[115:55] So, it's just these two pages?

Speaker 2:
[115:57] Yeah, you know what? Just that you did it, put it down. First we'll do the game. We'll do the game first. I know, I'm all over the place, but forgive me. This is the game called The Stash Word. It's the Dopey Game Show. You ready? It's just questions you answer. I time a minute, we'll see what we get. Number one, what is the Sicilian message?

Speaker 5:
[116:16] A fish in a newspaper?

Speaker 2:
[116:17] Yeah, something like that. Name three famous Walt Clyde Frazierisms.

Speaker 5:
[116:22] Walt Clyde Frazierisms?

Speaker 2:
[116:24] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[116:24] I have no...

Speaker 2:
[116:25] I thought you were a Knicks fan.

Speaker 5:
[116:26] Yeah, but I mean...

Speaker 2:
[116:27] Posting and toasting, shaking and baking.

Speaker 5:
[116:29] I wasn't a fan when he... I wasn't into basketball when he was on the team.

Speaker 2:
[116:33] Oh, this is not going to go well. What was the name of the biker gang, Christopher and Tony Robb in season six?

Speaker 5:
[116:40] The Vandals?

Speaker 2:
[116:40] No, the Vipers.

Speaker 5:
[116:41] The Vipers. I had the V right.

Speaker 2:
[116:43] Give me five street names for weed. Dope.

Speaker 5:
[116:50] Shit.

Speaker 2:
[116:51] Okay.

Speaker 5:
[116:53] Wilma.

Speaker 2:
[116:54] Never heard it, but I'll take it.

Speaker 5:
[116:55] It's a good one, right?

Speaker 2:
[116:56] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[116:58] Sense.

Speaker 2:
[116:58] Sure.

Speaker 5:
[117:01] Ganja.

Speaker 2:
[117:02] Okay, that works. I was hoping you'd say Buddha, but what are you going to do? What do you yell when you're practicing Taekwondo?

Speaker 5:
[117:09] Oh, lots of different things.

Speaker 2:
[117:10] Isn't there one thing you're supposed to yell?

Speaker 5:
[117:12] Yeah, there's a lot, but that's what they teach you or encourage you when you're starting, but if you get into it, you yell all kinds of things.

Speaker 2:
[117:23] Okay. What is the name of the band that Christopher Moltisanti agrees to pay to produce a demo for?

Speaker 5:
[117:30] I forgot.

Speaker 2:
[117:31] Visiting Day.

Speaker 5:
[117:32] Visiting Day.

Speaker 2:
[117:33] Yeah, man.

Speaker 5:
[117:33] Because that episode of Hit is a Hit. That's a good one.

Speaker 2:
[117:35] And he says to the dude, he's like, I'm at, that's your kind of thing. It was all about music production. And the dude's like, I got nothing. And Christopher tells the guy, spike up, man. He throws meth at him in a fucking needle. And he says, spike up. Hits him with the guitar. It's so good. So good.

Speaker 5:
[117:51] I have a really bad long-term, I have a really good short-term memory. Really, thank God, because I can still remember lines, but my long-term memory is horrible.

Speaker 2:
[118:01] I have a fucking terrible memory, but I remember everything about the Sopranos, because I'm a sick person.

Speaker 5:
[118:06] That's cool.

Speaker 2:
[118:07] So let's do this scene. It'll be fun. It'll be fun for me. I don't know if it'll be fun for you.

Speaker 5:
[118:12] Let's see.

Speaker 2:
[118:13] So it's Christopher and Corky sit parked in Christopher's Maserati, and it was following the hit of Rusty Millio, if I can just jog your memory.

Speaker 5:
[118:22] Who was played by?

Speaker 2:
[118:24] What's his face? The singer, Frankie Valli. Okay.

Speaker 5:
[118:28] I came up with that name, by the way.

Speaker 2:
[118:30] Corky?

Speaker 5:
[118:31] Rusty Millio.

Speaker 2:
[118:32] It's a good name. What I wanted to ask you is, why do you suppose Spider was called Spider?

Speaker 5:
[118:37] That was based on a real kid, Michael. His name was Michael Gianco, I think, and that was his nickname.

Speaker 2:
[118:42] Crazy.

Speaker 5:
[118:43] That was a real, that was a real, that was horrible. Horrendous.

Speaker 2:
[118:47] Did that really happen in that shooting?

Speaker 5:
[118:49] Those guys were.

Speaker 2:
[118:50] You know what I also didn't like about, that was the one thing in Goodfellas I didn't like?

Speaker 5:
[118:54] Horrible people for the most part, right?

Speaker 2:
[118:56] Did you ever meet any of them? You meet Henry Hill or anything?

Speaker 5:
[118:59] No, I wouldn't want to.

Speaker 2:
[119:00] Of course. The scene, at the end of that scene, when you're shot dead, I mean, you take however many bullets and then Ray Liotta is above you and he says, he's dead as though it's a surprise. Like how could you have been anything but dead in that moment? I didn't like that read. That always annoyed me. All right, here we go. So Christopher and Corky are in the Maserati. There were times when I was a kid, me and my friend Ronnie would play on the floor in my kitchen. Lanolium, matchbox cars or whatever. He'd go home, his fucking knees would be filthy. His elbows. She never cleaned, my mother. Fucking house was a pigsty. Ronnie's mother made him stop coming over. It was so dirty.

Speaker 5:
[119:44] That's fucked up.

Speaker 2:
[119:45] Embarrassing. My kid, it'll be different. He'll be proud of his house. Way do you see this place?

Speaker 5:
[119:52] So that thing, Rusty Millio, I heard that happened.

Speaker 2:
[119:56] Good job.

Speaker 1:
[119:58] It's a little less cash than we talked about, but there's a bonus in there for you.

Speaker 5:
[120:04] It's okay if I fix. Just take me to my car.

Speaker 1:
[120:08] Rock out with your cock out. Fireplace, parquet floors, bumper pool table in the basement. What? The house I'm getting. You'll come over. Christmas, Christmas Eve, maybe. We're going to start a tradition. You know, you really got to get yourself some help with this shit.

Speaker 5:
[120:30] I will. I'm going to.

Speaker 1:
[120:32] Those fucking works, though. What's my whistle, that spike? Why is that? I don't know.

Speaker 5:
[120:40] You want some?

Speaker 1:
[120:41] Me? No.

Speaker 5:
[120:42] Okay. It's just, you know, if you want.

Speaker 1:
[120:45] Uh, well, I guess I could toot some. I remember when I did a lot of blow. I used to get diarrhea just from the smell of paper money in the store, any fucking place, on account of all the baby laxative and the coke when they actually snored it. Hey, I meant what I said, though. You got to get your ass to rehab fucking Narcotics Anonymous or some shit. How do you like this car?

Speaker 5:
[121:12] It's nice. It's the leather.

Speaker 1:
[121:15] Yes.

Speaker 5:
[121:17] Fucking funny shit, isn't it?

Speaker 1:
[121:18] It's fucking so good.

Speaker 5:
[121:20] It's so sad, but so funny and so... Because you know he's never going to invite him over for... I mean, that's such a classic drug. Yeah, you'll come over for Chris. It's just like, you know, he never wants to see this guy again.

Speaker 1:
[121:32] Well, it's that dude who plays Corky is the ultimate junkie. Like, in that scene, you couldn't find a guy that looks more cut out.

Speaker 5:
[121:43] That's the only reason why they're friends.

Speaker 1:
[121:44] Right, well, of course.

Speaker 5:
[121:45] When they became friends.

Speaker 1:
[121:46] That character, though, was an enigma because he speaks total fluent Italian. Like, remember, he meets up with the hit man and he's giving him the guns and he's...

Speaker 5:
[121:55] So was that Eduardo Ballerini?

Speaker 1:
[121:56] Yes.

Speaker 5:
[121:57] Who played that?

Speaker 1:
[121:57] Yes.

Speaker 5:
[121:57] Yeah, he's really good.

Speaker 1:
[121:59] Really good.

Speaker 5:
[121:59] There was another character, I forget who it was, who played some other junkie guy, I forget. But yeah, Ballerini's really good. He's a good actor.

Speaker 1:
[122:09] It was an amazing scene, and then the fucked up thing.

Speaker 5:
[122:11] My father's a professor of Italian studies at NYU, actually.

Speaker 1:
[122:15] That's why he did such a good Italian. The fucked up thing, though, and I don't know how this affects you or it doesn't, but as an idiot junkie, I would sit there and I would get high to the scene. Wow. Literally. Because I'm a fucking idiot junkie.

Speaker 5:
[122:31] Play along at home, kids.

Speaker 1:
[122:33] Basically.

Speaker 5:
[122:33] Horrible.

Speaker 1:
[122:34] And then afterwards, they play this song, they play this Richie Haven song, Dolphins, The Fred Neal Version of the... Fred Neal.

Speaker 5:
[122:42] Oh, so Richie Haven's Road, then? Fred Neal's.

Speaker 1:
[122:44] Yeah, the Richie Haven's version.

Speaker 5:
[122:45] That's the ride. That's the episode, right?

Speaker 1:
[122:47] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5:
[122:47] It's a really good episode.

Speaker 1:
[122:48] Well, that's the episode where Adriana dies. Or...

Speaker 5:
[122:51] No, that was long-term parking.

Speaker 1:
[122:52] Right, right, right. But it's around there.

Speaker 5:
[122:54] The ride was... And that was when he was at the feast, the festival. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's spacing out.

Speaker 1:
[122:59] It's after the scene. It's right after that. And he's feeding the dog. And you're lying on your back.

Speaker 5:
[123:03] Who wrote that one? That was a good one.

Speaker 1:
[123:05] Terrence Winter.

Speaker 5:
[123:06] Yeah, Terry's great.

Speaker 1:
[123:07] He's good. But you were so good in it and like, oh my god. I personally hated.

Speaker 5:
[123:13] One of my favorite episodes.

Speaker 1:
[123:15] Me too. But it really struck a nerve with me because it was so real.

Speaker 5:
[123:20] It's heartbreaking.

Speaker 1:
[123:22] It is. But it's like, it's really real. And when they play that, I mean, the reason that show was so good was because the performances were great, the writing was great, and then the music is great. The things you see when they play that version of Dolphins, it really feels like that. It feels like dope. And I listen to Dolphins now. I always was kind of enamored with the song from the scene. And this guy, Fred Neil, who I don't even know who it is.

Speaker 5:
[123:55] Didn't he write Everybody's Talking? Is that Fred Neil?

Speaker 1:
[123:58] I thought Harry Nielsen wrote it.

Speaker 5:
[124:00] Harry Nielsen sang it, but he didn't write it.

Speaker 1:
[124:01] Maybe. It seems like the same kind of thing.

Speaker 5:
[124:03] I think Fred Neil wrote it.

Speaker 1:
[124:05] And then Tim Buckley does a version of Dolphins also.

Speaker 5:
[124:07] Oh, really?

Speaker 1:
[124:08] But the Richie Havens one is the one that I love. But Fred Neil takes me to this scene, and this scene is very meaningful to me.

Speaker 5:
[124:15] Yeah, because it resonates.

Speaker 1:
[124:17] And also it becomes like a personal thing. And it's fucking bizarre and weird that somebody like me could experience this character and get high with them. You know what I mean?

Speaker 5:
[124:32] And you relate it to a time in your life, right? And when you see that episode or hear that song, I bet it probably takes you to a specific...

Speaker 1:
[124:39] It does. But then the really interesting thing to me is that when Chris and I, and obviously you keep getting confused when I say Chris, as though I'm talking about Moltisanti, but I'm talking about my friend Chris who I started the show with. And when we started the show, I was four months clean.

Speaker 5:
[124:52] He doesn't do the show anymore?

Speaker 1:
[124:53] He's dead.

Speaker 5:
[124:54] Oh, he's dead.

Speaker 1:
[124:55] He relapsed and died last summer.

Speaker 5:
[124:57] Oh, that's who you started the show with?

Speaker 1:
[124:59] Yes.

Speaker 5:
[125:00] Oh, I thought he was just a friend.

Speaker 1:
[125:02] No, no.

Speaker 5:
[125:03] I didn't realize that you were both.

Speaker 1:
[125:04] Him and I started the show together.

Speaker 5:
[125:05] He died last year?

Speaker 1:
[125:06] He died last summer.

Speaker 5:
[125:07] Heroin?

Speaker 1:
[125:08] Fentanyl.

Speaker 5:
[125:09] Fentanyl.

Speaker 1:
[125:09] Yeah. And I remember, though, we would talk about, because I was like a junkie that would watch a lot of TV. I would always call myself this bourgeois junkie that I probably wouldn't have a heroin problem if I didn't have cable. I'd probably clean up because I wouldn't want to live in the street or something, because I enjoyed that aspect, getting high and not existing, and we would talk about this scene. And I would reenact it with him, the wet my whistle scene, that spike. And he refused to do the lines, and just the fact that you're here doing it, it has this incredible meaning to me, because I know that Chris would have lost his fucking mind. And it's just very cool. I know, where are you? You're on the 21st floor in Jewish public housing, sitting at the table talking to this drug addict, but you did something here. And I really appreciate it.

Speaker 5:
[126:00] Are you open about your years in sobriety?

Speaker 1:
[126:02] Of course.

Speaker 5:
[126:03] How long are you sober?

Speaker 1:
[126:05] Four years sober, four years and a month sober today.

Speaker 5:
[126:08] And when did you start the podcast?

Speaker 1:
[126:12] Three and a half years ago.

Speaker 5:
[126:13] How many have you done?

Speaker 1:
[126:15] This is going to be the 205th episode.

Speaker 5:
[126:17] Wow.

Speaker 1:
[126:17] And it's 205 episodes in a row, 205 weeks in a row, never missing a week, even when he died.

Speaker 5:
[126:24] And it's not all artistic, it sometimes deals with...

Speaker 1:
[126:27] It's usually just drug addicts. They're going to be like, why?

Speaker 5:
[126:30] Active and recovered.

Speaker 1:
[126:31] Usually recovered, usually in recovery. My friend Chris would always call himself recovered, and I told him he was really arrogant for saying that. And then he wound up dying. It's just fucking crazy.

Speaker 5:
[126:43] Yeah, because it'll kill you.

Speaker 1:
[126:46] It will, especially now. Well, last summer I had this friend who I met in college, one of my best friends, who also watched a ton of The Sopranos with me. He died, and six weeks later Chris died. And it's just like, it will kill you. Yeah, from Fentanyl. The same exact story. It will kill anybody. And the show is mostly drugs addiction and dumb shit, just stupid fucking stories around addiction. And then also like kind of how we get sober, and how it's so funny to be this lying, thieving addict and then become somebody who does the next right thing and helps the next person and carries the message. And the duality of the two is what I was so interested in. And also as a fan of the Howard Stern Show, like you listen to the Howard Stern Show and you felt like you were one of his friends. You listen to the Howard Stern Show and you felt like you were getting joy from hearing his life. Like that was the nuance of the Stern Show. And there was a guy on the Stern Show called Artie Lang. And Artie Lang was this terrible drug addict. And he wound up like relapsing on the Stern Show.

Speaker 5:
[127:57] He did that movie Beer League.

Speaker 1:
[127:59] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[128:00] A lot of my friends were in.

Speaker 1:
[128:01] Right, and he wound up trying to kill himself.

Speaker 5:
[128:03] Which is actually a very, you know, it's a movie that's actually has, is a very sweet movie.

Speaker 1:
[128:09] Which one of those kind? You know, I never saw it and it's embarrassing.

Speaker 5:
[128:13] It's a movie you wouldn't think would be good. I don't mean that. It's just like, it's an indie and it's just guys playing softball, beer league. It actually has a lot of heart, that movie.

Speaker 1:
[128:25] Well, they need more movies like that. You know, I think movies that have heart, I think we don't get characters like the characters that you used to play anymore. What did you get, what is this show you're working on now?

Speaker 5:
[128:38] I'm doing a series that's called Lincoln that's based on the Lincoln Rhymes series of novels by Jeffrey Deaver. It was a movie Bone Collector. It's based on that. I have a movie coming out. It's going to premiere at the Metrograph here in New York in February or March called Cabaret Maxime that a lot of my, some soprano, John Ventimiglia is in it, Sharon Angel is in it.

Speaker 1:
[129:06] I meant that guy in the Catsons too.

Speaker 5:
[129:08] Arthur Nascorella is in it. It's kind of an homage to Cassavetes Killing the Chinese Bookie. I play this club owner, Burlesque club owner, whose life and livelihood is threatened by gentrification kind of forces. We shot in Lisbon. It's a Portuguese filmmaker who lived here for a while. It's the third movie we've done with him. But it's something that's, you know, like when I said, when I started out, I'm still working with the same people. It's something that I produced as well. And it's one of the things I'm like most proud of. And that's coming out in February. I think we're about to set the date. We just, Metrograph just took it. And it's going to be released digitally right after that.

Speaker 1:
[129:51] Awesome.

Speaker 5:
[129:52] I'm really happy about that.

Speaker 1:
[129:53] That's awesome.

Speaker 5:
[129:53] Yeah. And I'm doing the book. I've been doing a lot of live readings of the book.

Speaker 1:
[129:57] You read so great.

Speaker 5:
[129:58] And I started doing it with a couple other actors and with some musicians. And we're going to do it at Joe's Pub. Kind of a longer 90-minute version. As much of the story as we can get in with a bunch of actors and some musicians.

Speaker 1:
[130:11] Did you ever think you're going to do it as a play kind of thing?

Speaker 5:
[130:14] It's kind of like a radio play. Because we're doing it as a reading. But there's a certain twist that I'm doing with. I've been doing a lot of those in LA. I'm doing it with Lydia Lunch. Not reading with her. She does her stuff and I do my read. But now I'm incorporating actors and musicians in it. Because it should be with musicians.

Speaker 1:
[130:35] I bet the whole thing could be a play. And I think it would be a totally different thing. You know what I mean? Nobody's ever made a play like that. I don't know.

Speaker 5:
[130:43] So that's the first, I'm making steps in that direction, kind of bringing this to life in different forms. That's been really fun.

Speaker 1:
[130:50] It's amazing.

Speaker 5:
[130:50] Really exciting.

Speaker 1:
[130:51] It's so cool. And I just want to ask you this. When you play such a crazy, knocked down, junky character, like where are you getting it from? Like where are you getting the nuances?

Speaker 5:
[131:04] I've seen it.

Speaker 1:
[131:06] You've seen it personally?

Speaker 5:
[131:07] Yeah. I've seen it and I've researched it a lot. And yeah, I've seen it, a lot of it.

Speaker 1:
[131:15] Well, I cannot tell you what it means to me to have you over here and to take the time. I know that my dad's housekeeper's going to show up, so I'd much rather we end it before she comes back.

Speaker 5:
[131:24] And what time does the butler get here?

Speaker 1:
[131:26] The butler comes after that.

Speaker 5:
[131:27] After that.

Speaker 1:
[131:27] And then the tennis instructor. We play upstairs, yeah, on the roof.

Speaker 5:
[131:31] I live in this joint.

Speaker 1:
[131:33] All right. People constantly say that we are bragging that he lives in Manhattan on the 21st floor, and now that the housekeeper is coming, now you're really giving it credence here. Could you tell them what kind of middle class schmaltz place this is?

Speaker 5:
[131:49] This is like the Garmin Workers Union, right?

Speaker 1:
[131:52] Yeah, International Ladies Garmin Workers Union.

Speaker 5:
[131:54] It was built by those guys.

Speaker 1:
[131:56] Yeah, my grandparents moved in here.

Speaker 5:
[131:57] A lot of red diaper babies grew up here, stuff like that.

Speaker 1:
[132:00] My grandfather was a communist dentist.

Speaker 5:
[132:02] Yeah, there you go. And a lot of artists came out of here.

Speaker 1:
[132:06] Do you feel like I wasted your time by having you here?

Speaker 5:
[132:08] Oh, God, no, I enjoyed it a lot. It was fun. I love having conversations like this, especially about, you know, talking about artists and the formative years and all those things. It's always really fun to talk about.

Speaker 1:
[132:24] Well, it blows me away.

Speaker 5:
[132:25] Good job.

Speaker 1:
[132:26] Thank you for coming. It's beautiful to have you. So, that was Michael Imperioli. Fucking beautiful to have him. He was a little reluctant to bring the Dopey. However, he did do the fucking scene.

Speaker 2:
[132:39] He did do the scene. Very impressed.

Speaker 1:
[132:41] The scene, I was practicing. When Bill came over, I showed him. I didn't make this clear when Michael was on the show, but Bill was like, well, how did you get the scene? And I was like, I fucking just watched the scene over and over again and typed it out. And I have the script sitting in front of Bill. He was very impressed that, or he was also kind of unimpressed that I didn't just Google a free Sopranos script.

Speaker 2:
[133:03] You want to do this with me? We could do this.

Speaker 1:
[133:05] They just heard it.

Speaker 2:
[133:07] We don't have the time.

Speaker 1:
[133:07] Here, do you want to play Christopher and I'll play Corky?

Speaker 2:
[133:10] I'm definitely not an actor.

Speaker 1:
[133:11] Alright, we're not doing it. We can't do it. Listen, man, this show's not supposed to be longer. It's not supposed to be longer than a two hour show. I'm going to have Sam down my throat about this.

Speaker 2:
[133:21] I feel guilty.

Speaker 1:
[133:22] You did great. You brought too much Dopey not to be contained. And Michael Imperioli, it's like, listen, I know people in the Dopey Nation are going to be like, I don't care about this. He's not a drug addict. Listen, guys, this is something I've always wanted to do and I can check the dream off in my box of dreams to check off.

Speaker 2:
[133:43] I mean, I don't even feel like we've talked about DopeyCon and Mountainside and the event that you're going to do. I was hoping we would get it.

Speaker 1:
[133:48] Oh, Anna's going to get mad at you.

Speaker 2:
[133:49] Not only is Anna going to get upset, but I wanted to make you shine. I mean, it's a big deal. We're kicking off, like, we have this brand-new Recovery Resource Center which is opening.

Speaker 1:
[133:59] You're going too fast. Dopey Nation, October 12th, a lot of you know, is DopeyCon, the great part live Dopey, part Dopey Convention, part Storytelling Jamboree. That's how I'm billing it, by the way.

Speaker 2:
[134:15] I love it.

Speaker 1:
[134:16] Part live Dopey, part Dopey Convention, part Storytelling Jamboree. It is happening at Mountainside's new Wellness Center. Now, Bill, I'm sorry.

Speaker 2:
[134:25] Yeah, it's, I'm so excited, you know, and I'm really excited you're going to be the very first big event that we do there.

Speaker 1:
[134:32] We have also the first event I've ever done.

Speaker 2:
[134:34] Right.

Speaker 1:
[134:35] Actually, it'll be the second because, Oh, because that's right. Because the Appalachian Healing Festival is my warm up for DopeyCon.

Speaker 2:
[134:40] Right. I mean, we have this brand new Recovery Resource Center. It's a hub of recovery right on 18th Street in the heart of Chelsea between 7th and 8th Avenues.

Speaker 1:
[134:50] Look at you.

Speaker 2:
[134:50] And it opens, the grand opening is Saturday, September 28th. We have an event that's open to anybody in New York City. And you can just go to our Facebook page and register. It's called Recovery to Discovery. And your event though is really the big thing that's happening in October.

Speaker 1:
[135:08] Well, it's funny. There's this lady, this woman, this wonderful woman named Anna, who is in charge of something at Mountainside.

Speaker 2:
[135:17] Vice President of Marketing.

Speaker 1:
[135:18] She's the Vice President of Marketing at Mountainside. And she's become the Dopey Champion. And she's putting on DopeyCon. And Anna is a tenacious woman. And she's like, they're doing an arcade, a game room downstairs. And she's like, she's very funny. She's like, David, have you ever heard of Barcade? Well, it's going to be, we're going to have that downstairs, but without the bar. And I was like, oh, so it's going to be an arcade? She's like, yeah, that's what I meant.

Speaker 2:
[135:44] Yeah, they delivered the pool table last week, ping pong tables, like old-fashioned Ms. Pac-Man arcade machines, Mortal Kombat machines. And there's actually going to be a ping pong tournament the opening weekend. I think it's Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Pizza party, and it's open. What we've done is we've invited a lot of the sober livings in New York City.

Speaker 1:
[136:03] It'll be a real high-level ping pong tournament then. I go places and I play ping pong. I'm like, just so you know, I've spent a lot of time in detox, let's go. You know what I mean? Because if you spend any considerable time in any sort of recovery situation, you better be decent at ping pong.

Speaker 2:
[136:18] I hope some of your listeners from the Dopey Nation like ping pong, because on the 12th, right? October 12th, I'm pretty sure it'll be open to the public.

Speaker 1:
[136:26] There was a dude, when I was at Mountainside, he was like a minor league pitcher. He was this amazing athlete. We called him Johnny No-Nos. He was a very handsome guy. He always wore a track suit. He was this insanely good ping pong player. He was unbelievable, except he went up against this hippie named Pat. Pat the hippie slept through every group, but he came alive in this ping pong tournament, and he destroyed Johnny No-Nos. This is what I hope your ping pong tournament is like.

Speaker 2:
[137:00] Yeah, I'm sure it will be. You know how competitive these guys and girls in Sober Living can get?

Speaker 1:
[137:04] I love it. So yeah, Anna wanted to open up the downstairs of fucking DopeyCon up to the Dopey Nation to play video games. I'm like, no, no, no. They're going upstairs. We've got dopey business to do. But of course, there might be some video games if you guys want to play, but I don't really want you guys playing video games at DopeyCon.

Speaker 2:
[137:20] Okay. I don't either. I want them upstairs with you. Are you going to be selling merch?

Speaker 1:
[137:25] That's the idea. We'll see. There will be, I have like 10 Oive hooded sweatshirts that I'm going to sell. I am making exclusive, super thick Dopey hoodies that are not available on the website that will only be available at DopeyCon.

Speaker 2:
[137:41] Awesome.

Speaker 1:
[137:41] There might or might not be DopeyCon t-shirts, probably not, but there might be DopeyCon t-shirts, and I have 120 new, well, they're the same old Dopey design, but newly made Dopey hats will be available.

Speaker 2:
[137:57] Excellent.

Speaker 1:
[137:57] So everybody there can get one if they want, and if not, I'll have a fuckload of Dopey hats at home.

Speaker 2:
[138:03] We started this, Madonna's Tour opens tonight in Brooklyn, and I am hitting the merch table as soon as I walk in the door. Merch is big.

Speaker 1:
[138:10] Me and Linda, my lovely partner, went to see The Who on Sunday night. And it was, Pete Townsend is like somebody that like maybe he's one of my Madonnas for you. I love Pete Townsend and it was a thrill to see Pete Townsend play. And The Who was pretty good. They had some sound problems, but it's a thrill for me to be in the same room as Pete Townsend, to be honest with you. Anyway, they had insanely nice looking merch, but it was very expensive. It was so expensive, I refused to buy it. The t-shirts were $55. $55?

Speaker 2:
[138:45] Yeah, I think Madonna's t-shirts are probably $65, $70.

Speaker 1:
[138:48] It's obnoxious. It's fucking obnoxious. You fucking sell a ticket that's five floors up for $100 and then you get smacked with a 50. DopeyCon t-shirts, the most they'll be is $25.

Speaker 2:
[139:01] I mean, that's where they make their money these days.

Speaker 1:
[139:03] But it's too much. It's too much. The fucking hats, 25 bucks, maybe 20, maybe 25, something like that.

Speaker 2:
[139:11] Yeah, don't commit to anything.

Speaker 1:
[139:12] Yeah, maybe they'll be $55 t-shirts. But the Who's Merchandise, it looked really good, I have to say. Anyway, DopeyCon is coming, fucking October 12th. It is mostly... They're sold out, but if you want a ticket, go on to the thing.

Speaker 2:
[139:27] There's a waitlist. There's a real waitlist, so if you.

Speaker 1:
[139:30] Is that what it is?

Speaker 2:
[139:30] Yeah, if you go on to our Facebook page and register for DopeyCon, it'll bring you to the event page and you can put your name on a waitlist. You know how these things go. People will be dropping off for one reason or another. So definitely just because it is primarily sold out right now, if you want to go, go to our Facebook page, Mountainside Treatment Center and sign up for the waitlist.

Speaker 1:
[139:52] All right, there you go. Sign up for the waitlist. Don't hit me up for tickets. Sign up for the waitlist. All right. I got this email today and it really, really meant something to me. It actually meant so much to me that I posted it on our Instagram and our Facebook. And you can read it, Bill. It's the bottom. It's here.

Speaker 2:
[140:15] Me the bottom?

Speaker 1:
[140:16] From right here? Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[140:18] Just got to eight.

Speaker 1:
[140:19] No, no, no, no. From here. Hey, Dave.

Speaker 2:
[140:20] Oh.

Speaker 1:
[140:21] Hey, Dave. You got to say hey, Dave. Hey, Dave.

Speaker 2:
[140:23] Just got to eight days sober and I can honestly say I owe it all to you and Chris.

Speaker 1:
[140:27] All of it.

Speaker 2:
[140:28] Still not sleeping and restless for not using oxy after two years. I took the cold turkey route with no methadone or suboxone.

Speaker 1:
[140:36] Which is crazy.

Speaker 2:
[140:38] I know this feeling lasts a long time, but I'm slowly getting naps in here and there while listening to Dopey, of course. Keep up the good work and I fucking hope I can get another eight days. I'll send a Dopey story in the future, but right, I can't even think about drugs without wanting them.

Speaker 1:
[140:55] Ha.

Speaker 2:
[140:56] Toodles for Chris.

Speaker 1:
[140:58] I love that. That's James. He's in Canada. I heard from him later today and he's doing well. He's in High Spirits considering. I know that I kicked dope an infinite number of times and I kicked dope many, many times. It was never totally cold turkey unless I... No, I think it was never totally cold turkey. I always made sure I had weed and pills and anything I could to not do dope. Maybe... I don't think I ever kicked totally cold turkey. I think I always had weed and when I was lucky, I had pills. But what I told this guy was the shower is your friend, the television is your friend, fucking anything that you can do to give you pleasure is your friend. What would you say to somebody who is in that situation?

Speaker 2:
[141:47] I tell them to get in their pajamas, crawl on the couch, lay on your side. I always found that laying on the couch and being in your pajamas and throwing a blanket over you was a lot more conducive to feeling better than trying to lay in your bed and fall asleep. I always just tried to focus on rest. I always just closed my eyes and rest. I felt like falling, I can't tell you, countless nights falling asleep on the couch with the TV on. That's the way I was able to fall asleep. Never in bed. I went over a year without sleeping in my bed. I lived on my couch.

Speaker 1:
[142:18] That's actually very meaningful because the bed can be like torture. To be in a bed without being able to sleep can be torture. For me, I would feel so hot and cold. The hot and cold was always crazy because when you kick opiates, I would just always be freezing until I put a blanket on me and then I would be mixed between freezing and boiling and my stomach would be turning. I really like, I remember every time I urinated, it was like the only time I would pray is when I urinated and I would say, thank God for letting me drain. I would say that every time because it was such a simple thing that took the pressure off my bladder. I also remember just watching a ton of Lost, watching the Lord of the Rings trilogy, watching any hour that I could get where I was thinking of something besides copping and besides misery was like a great win for me. That's how I look at kicking. My thoughts and my prayers are with James and Bill. It was fucking joy to have you. I wanted to do way more at the end, but I don't like episodes that are too much longer than two hours.

Speaker 2:
[143:30] Yeah, no one's listening to us right now.

Speaker 1:
[143:32] You'd be surprised. You'd be surprised. Thank you so much for coming.

Speaker 2:
[143:37] Of course.

Speaker 1:
[143:38] Absolutely.

Speaker 2:
[143:38] It's been a pleasure.

Speaker 1:
[143:39] We will have you back. I know that the Dopey Nation will love you, right? About how much you loved Bill's crazy water tower adventure. You know, there was this place years ago, they set it up as a secret restaurant inside a water tower. Have you heard about that?

Speaker 2:
[143:57] No, we're in New York.

Speaker 1:
[143:58] They decorated the inside so it was like this super bougie secret clandestine water tower fucking restaurant. There's also many books about how beautiful the water towers of New York are.

Speaker 2:
[144:12] Yes, they are beautiful.

Speaker 1:
[144:13] I know from where we live, or where my dad lives now, where I grew up, you look out and you see so many. Where I grew up on the cityscape, there were these old sort of murals that were ads that were painted on the side of the brick building between 33rd and 20th Street, these big old textile ads and stuff. You can still see them and they're very faded and beautiful. One thing I do like, I never talk about what I like about the episode, but one thing I like about this episode is that you talked about spirituality and mysticism and Michael Imperioli did. We talked about gentrification and the beauty of New York and so did Michael. There was a real kind of not planned through line.

Speaker 2:
[144:58] Can I say one thing to be able to say whatever you want? This water tower is right off of Columbus Circle, right next to Time Warner. I walk by it a lot because I'm a big performing arts fan, a big opera fan. I'm always going to the Metropolitan Opera. I get off at Time Warner Center and I walk towards Lincoln Center. There's the water tower. I look up at that water tower every single time I pass. And I can't believe that I was at the top of that thing. If you could see how high this thing was. And I just sort of can't even relate to who that guy used to be. But I get chills, but I feel it in my chest.

Speaker 1:
[145:38] I know what you mean. The most amazing thing is how you could have been this fucked up crazy person, right? And the city is the same as it was then, and you're different. I mean, the city's changed all over the place, too. But you're different, and this tower is still there, the same exact thing as it was.

Speaker 2:
[145:55] I want to get a really good photograph. I've always wanted to get a really good photograph of this tower and then frame it, like beautifully frame it and hang it up in my apartment. So that, you know, it's a great story, right? But it's also a real reminder. And no one else needs to know what that water tower represents.

Speaker 1:
[146:11] You'll tell everybody the story. You will. Of course you will.

Speaker 2:
[146:14] I don't know.

Speaker 1:
[146:15] It'll be like, oh, that's a really handsome picture of a water tower.

Speaker 2:
[146:19] But it's a landmark of my addiction and, you know, where my addiction took me.

Speaker 1:
[146:23] It totally is. It totally is.

Speaker 2:
[146:25] A real New York landmark.

Speaker 1:
[146:27] I love that. And Bill, thank you again. And I can't wait to have you on again. And you guys follow us on Reddit, the Reddit, the Reddit Dopey Nation War. We have a war between the Reddit group and the Dopey Nation group. I think it's dying down. I think, but the thing about the Reddit people is they're unpredictable and you never know when they're going to strike. So I think the Dopey Nation people need to be cautious. But follow us on Reddit. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter. I don't know. I think that's it.

Speaker 2:
[147:00] Yeah, that's great. I can't wait to be back, Dave. Thank you.

Speaker 1:
[147:02] Stay strong, Dopey Nation and fucking Toodles for Chris.