transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast, and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone or anything.

Speaker 2:
[00:27] I'm Sarah Edmondson.

Speaker 1:
[00:28] And I'm Anthony Nippy Ames, and this is A Little Bit Culty.

Speaker 2:
[00:31] We woke up from a cult, and that journey was captured in The Vow on HBO and in my memoir, Scarred.

Speaker 1:
[00:36] Now in this podcast, we break down the shame and secrets that make these experiences so destructive with honest conversations on how seemingly benign groups can cross into the cultiverse and how to spot and recover from trouble if it happens to you.

Speaker 2:
[00:48] Each week, we bring in experts, survivors, and whistleblowers to explore red flags, resilience, and even share a few laughs because sometimes you gotta laugh.

Speaker 1:
[00:56] Subscribe to our Patreon for early and ad-free listening, some live Q&A, and exclusive content at patreon.com/alittlebitculty.

Speaker 2:
[01:03] Welcome to season 8 of A Little Bit Culty.

Speaker 1:
[01:22] Welcome back to part two with Peter Young, everyone.

Speaker 2:
[01:26] If you missed part one, please go listen to it. It won't make sense. Also, we highly recommend Peter's book, Stop the Tall Man, Save the Tiger. And just to kind of give people a little bit idea, because I feel like we kind of skimmed it, this is a dream that Paige had before she met you, where there was a, tell me if I'm butchering this, there was a tiger, she was scared, she didn't know what to do, and then a tall man comes in and saves the day.

Speaker 3:
[01:50] Yeah, that's close enough, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[01:51] Is that it? Okay, it is goosebumpy because she hadn't met you yet, and it's a, dreams are metaphors, dreams are metaphors.

Speaker 3:
[01:58] Right, well, in the Bible, there are over 20 instances where someone was given a dream, was almost always a warning, Mary and Joseph, you know, flee, Herod's gonna kill the baby Jesus, so they go to Egypt, right? There's all kinds of stories like that, and the dream is filled and fused with metaphor, and in the dream, yeah, a tall man comes in to get rid of this tiger, but she can't see the face of the tall man. Well, she hadn't met me yet. She literally had this dream like a month before she met me, or two, and Uncle Robert tries to pawn himself off as the tall man in the dream. Now, I'm six foot five. You can't tell, but I'm six foot five, and Uncle Robert's like five, six, maybe, and it would be funny if it wasn't so tragic because his manipulation of the dream worked to a tee, exactly how he wanted it to, and people might say, oh, come on, a dream from the Lord. Well, listen, he's God, he can do whatever he wants, right? So maybe it wasn't, I think it was, because so much of what the dream shared came true. And it is fascinating how that one moment in time in the winter of 1996, 1997, how it literally, as I mentioned before, it's still reverberating to this day because I am divorced, she has remarried. My family is broken up. I have very little contact with three of my five kids and they have broken off contact with the rest of the young family. It's tragic.

Speaker 2:
[03:24] It is tragic and I want to make sure that we walk our listenership through how you got from never wanting to be divorced, giving Paige all the time in the world to reconsider and to get her head down straight for lack of a better metaphor there. You gave her all the time in the world to figure things out and she doesn't. Things amp up. There's so many stories that are heartbreaking and wild in your book and we want people to read it. But what was the ultimate final straw? How did you leave the cult of booty, the booty cult?

Speaker 3:
[03:59] The booty cult, it's almost like my story is probably a little different and that I effectively got kicked out when Paige left me. Recall, as we spoke earlier, I had two wedding bands, we sent the extra one to him, so he's wearing my wedding band. Then a few years later, she wanted to be a surrogate to provide a male heir for Uncle Robert. Then in January 2017, she'd had enough of me because she felt like I was not pure enough, not devoted enough to Uncle Robert, I was thus a fraud, not a true Christian, so she leaves. Then right after she leaves, she and Booty go to DC to attend Trump's inauguration, and they're there for about two weeks. Let me ask you, what does that sound like when you share wedding bands, you try to have a family, and then you go on a two-week trip together? Sounds like a marriage, right? I think it was a very symbolic, figurative way for Paige to say, I'm leaving you, Peter, so I can draw closer to my true love. I don't mean to say in any shape or form that there was anything physical going on. I don't know that, I don't even speculate, I hope not. But clearly, she left me to draw closer to her first love. Really, our entire marriage can be summed up as a giant struggle for me to win the affections of my wife and not lose her to this other man. For her, the entire marriage was finding a way to stay married to this man I love, but also protect the tiger, protect person in his dream who really is the tiger and that is Booty. So she leaves and then shortly after she leaves, I told the kids, you know, hey listen, I'm sorry this happened, I'm taking all the blame, I still love your mom and I love you. And then when I told Paige what I said to the kids, she said, why did you tell the kids that you still love me? And I said, cause it's true, and it was. And she said, no, you only thought you love me. Oh boy, did that get her enraged because you got five kids. And if the kids know, well, daddy still loves mommy, why did mommy leave? Well, there was no way Paige was going to take responsibility for the breakup of our marriage. So then she and Booty started the campaign of teaching our children that I was a bloodline and a sperm donor, nothing more. And I remember a few years prior where Paige wanted to protect Uncle Robert's sperm and blood because it was so precious. Now they're using it to denigrate me. And my kids are literally believing this. And if I ever even timidly push back a little bit to my children, well, you know, honey, that's not true. They would say, you're calling mom a liar. And that made them angry. That's how bad it was. I couldn't even open my mouth the same thing about their mother. So then that happened in 2017. I was a wreck. I couldn't eat, couldn't sleep. I was never suicidal, but I was close. I was ready to go home to the Lord. I was ready to be done with his life, but I was never suicidal. And nobody in my family knew. So my parents didn't know, my brothers, my sister-in-laws, nobody at my work knew. Because again, Booty had done such a good job of making sure we were isolated and sufficiently paranoid that I didn't share anything. But when it happened, there was a moment with my oldest son where there was a disciplinary issue. It wasn't a big deal, but I handled it a certain way. Paige, who had already left to go to Northern Idaho with the three youngest children, thought I should have handled it differently. And then that's when she, you know, she talked about being a sperm donor and a bloodline. And Booty said, you need to quit trying to control or imprison your children in the prison of biological determinism. In other words, the only thing I brought to my kid's life was my biology. Well, after I haven't been brainwashed for about two years, because I don't know about you guys, but I was not brainwashed this whole time. I was only brainwashed for probably two, two and a half years. And after hearing that, I knew that's wicked. And that kind of started the snowball going downhill. There was never one moment where I said, I'm done, this was a cult. It was a series of moments, little by little, right? You know, you kind of, almost either you're tearing down the wall or building the wall brick by brick. So I was brainwashed for about two and a half years. It took a full year to finally be able to look in the mirror and say, wow, he was not the rescuer of my marriage. He was not the man that helped me understand my true faith. He was the problem.

Speaker 2:
[08:19] How did you put the word cult into your understanding?

Speaker 3:
[08:22] Great question. Again, even after all of this happened, even after I'm being taught that Cassina is of the true churches in America, and I need to sit down to pee, and that he's calling me the devil and Satan, and even after all of this, I still thought, yeah, it's inappropriate, it's weird, but it's not a cult. Then I would hear people like Sister-in-law, Paige's younger sister who had been kicked out and vilified and shunned. She called it a cult, other people called it a cult, and then someone, I get goosebumps again, someone anonymously sent me Stephen Hassan's book, Combating Cult Mind Control. I remember I got it in the mail, you have it, don't you? I thought, oh, come on, which one of my brothers sent this, golly, and I just put it on my bookshelf. Months later, I finally read it, and I'm telling you, I'm highlighting half the book. I mean, I'm highlighting half the book, and my jaw hits the floor every time I picked the book up, and I wasn't looking for a chance to go on podcasts and write a book to say, hey, we're covering up a cult. But if this wasn't a cult, what I went through, there's no such thing as a cult. So that's where I can speak. And now I've read a dozen books on cults. And when you peel back the onion enough, right? They're all the same. All the same. All the cult leaders share the same characteristics. It's scary and uncanny.

Speaker 1:
[09:40] Did you mail it to Paige with the highlights?

Speaker 3:
[09:44] I did it, but I had a couple of times where I shared with her my thoughts. And of course, she just thought I was nuts, and I was crazy. She has read my book.

Speaker 2:
[09:52] Oh, wow. How do you know?

Speaker 3:
[09:53] Okay, I'll tell you. So we had a court hearing. So again, courts interviewed. We got a garden headlight. Now, I had never heard of a garden headlight. But I didn't see the problem right off the bat. As soon as I reached out to my family, they helped me get attorneys. They said, you need a counselor. And I was still defenseless. I was still under Booty's mind control. And they really took care of me. And I would share these letters and emails with people that I thought, well, Uncle Robert, Booty has a hard edge about him. Well, they saw immediately, no, Peter, he's crazy. So they said, you need a garden ad litem, person appointed by the court to look after the best interests of children in a high conflict divorce. Of course, Page didn't want this person, but, you know, tough, it was gonna happen anyway. The garden ad litem wrote a jaw dropping report, 50 page report. And the courts sent the three youngest kids back to me. So they were living with Page in Idaho. They sent them back to me to live with me in Montana. So when that happened, you know, Page doesn't have much access to her kids because she has to have supervised visits. Because the garden ad litem saw cult influence, which courts will acknowledge that they're abusive to children. And thank the Lord, there was no physical or sexual abuse in our cult. It was all mental, emotional, and spiritual. They saw that, and then they saw the horrific parental alienation. So between the garden ad litem, our counselor, my attorneys, they all said it's the worst case of parental alienation they've ever seen in their career. So now Paige has to come to Montana to have supervised visits twice a month. And you would think, as a parent, listen, I'll do and say whatever I have to see my kids. That's one choice. The other choice is to fight, and Paige fought, and she's been fighting ever since. Because to cave and to say, I want to see my kids, would be to effectively say, Uncle Robert, you're wrong. And she would never do that. She would defend Uncle Robert forever, no matter what. So she's still doing it. So then we had a court hearing. There were some tough things that happened with my children. I don't want to go into too much detail. But given everything they went through, they've been through a lot. They've had to process and deal with it. So there have been difficult times. And every time something like that happens, Paige attacks me and we have to go to the judge. So the last time we did this, she has my book and she represents herself. She doesn't have her attorney. So instead of sitting on the witness stand and having her attorney question her, she's sitting there on the witness stand right next to the judge kind of talking and she holds my book up. It's a surreal moment. I'm in the court looking at her, sitting next to the judge as she's holding up to my book. She calls it a false fictional narrative. She used that phrase several times. Whenever she or my in laws would share something that sounded rehearsed, I always knew it came from Uncle Robert every single time. So they've all read it, they hate it, they think it's all a lie and they probably think I'm the devil still.

Speaker 2:
[12:38] When I was reading your book, I felt like, correct me if I'm wrong, but since you weren't able to fully have the proper conversation that you wanted to ever really with Paige, she was under Undo My Influence as well and didn't respect you and would never have believed you. It felt like your book must have been so cathartic and you're like, this is what I want her to know if she could take it in. Is that accurate?

Speaker 3:
[13:03] Very much so. Not only her, but my children because I didn't really speak up for myself. Yeah, and I didn't defend myself. So I wanted them to hear to me the true story, but also the other side of the story because all they heard was Uncle Robert Booty, Page, my in-laws, they never heard my story. Now, the younger children have certainly heard about it. I don't badmouth their mother because no matter what she said or done, she's still their mother and they still love her. Hopefully, they see through the propaganda from Booty. But I wanted them first and foremost to read it and understand the story. But yes, Sarah, I also wanted her to read it. I, for years, really hoped that she would have this Road to Damascus type moment. Again, it's Saul in the Bible, it's persecuting Christians, and then he becomes Paul and he writes half the New Testament. He has this moment called Road to Damascus, and I was hoping that she would have that moment, that she would see the light, that she would finally see the truth. It hasn't happened yet. In that regard, my book was a failure, but it certainly didn't accomplish what I was hoping it would in her life. But God is the God of miracles, it could always happen still in the future. I don't know what it would look like for her, because she's spent her entire life, literally her entire life, pursuing the export on everything.

Speaker 1:
[14:18] Before we hear from our sponsors, just a quick reminder, our book, A Little Bit Culty, Navigating Cults, Control and Coercion, is officially out and available on Amazon.

Speaker 2:
[14:28] Signed pre-orders have closed, but you can still get your copy today. This book is the culmination of five years of conversations, interviews and research. Everything we've learned about how people get pulled into high-control groups and how to avoid, escape or heal from them.

Speaker 1:
[14:43] If you've been listening to the podcast and want a deeper go-to resource, this is it.

Speaker 2:
[14:48] Available now on Amazon in print and as an e-book for Kindle. Yes, the audiobook is coming soon, narrated by us.

Speaker 1:
[14:55] Just search A Little Bit Culty and grab your copy.

Speaker 2:
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Speaker 1:
[17:50] Escape's over, let's return to our regularly scheduled cult talk. Peter, there are some people that were still loyal to Keith when all this came out, and it's pretty overwhelming evidence that Keith wasn't who he said he was. And one person said to us about someone who's still in, it's like, I think that's the safer place for them. Because if they reconcile the choices they made, it's a lot for them to unpack, and it's probably too devastating for them to recognize like.

Speaker 2:
[18:22] They screwed up.

Speaker 1:
[18:23] What they screwed up, and how far reach in the effects of their behavior are and how damaging they are. Look, for Sarah and I, I'm not going to say it was an easy pivot, but the damage that we felt like we participated in was minimal, and felt like it was a correctable mistake, and we could get some years of our lives back. For some people, it's their whole life, and that's just, it's too hard.

Speaker 3:
[18:46] Yeah, you bring up a great point because- I think about Paige, and this is an important point to make, and I'll focus more on Paige than her parents, but Paige knows no other world. She was born into a world where he, Robert Booty, is the expert on everything, the man that led her to the Lord, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And I make this point in my book, and I'm sure for a lot of people who read it, they might disagree with me because she did and said a lot of horrible things, but Paige's a victim. She doesn't know it, but she is a victim. And so then could you imagine to finally have this moment where you realize she's over 50 years old, you spent your entire life supporting a lie. I don't know how you deal with that.

Speaker 2:
[19:24] I don't know either. And Peter, there are still people in our cult that are still loyal to Keith for that same reason. Either they were, I guess some of them were born into it, but most of them are people who joined at a young age, like when they were young adults. And that's, you know, part of their framework of understanding. What we've seen for people to leave is they have to have their own experience.

Speaker 1:
[19:46] It has to be an easier decision.

Speaker 2:
[19:48] It has to be, yeah. It has to be easier to leave. So there has to be something coming from Booty to her that either he has to die or, you know, not be in her life for her to see another way, or she has to have an experience of, and I don't know what it would be exactly, but I know with Keith, there were some people that were, didn't believe us, stayed loyal and stayed loyal until they had their own experience of him directly. Like they had to experience him being a liar. Like the people who are still loyal to this day even know that he lied but justified as well. He had to do that in order to protect himself from the persecution, you know, and he's a martyr. So like they can still wrap the head around. So they have to have their own experience of something that doesn't sit right enough for them to go, okay, this isn't working for me anymore. And I don't know if that would ever happen for her at this point.

Speaker 3:
[20:39] Yeah, you know, the shell built around her that she has kind of created and Booty has nurtured is so thick and so strong, you know, to crack that shell, so to speak, to penetrate it, to pierce it with the truth would be very difficult. And I do believe that, you know, you are right in that whether it's conscious or not, and I don't think it is conscious, the easier thing to do is you just stay where you are. So then people will ask me, well, what happens when Booty dies? And, you know, Booty is in his 80s. I don't even know if he is still alive. I feel like I will know when he dies, because I'm hoping at that point there might be a change. And this goes back to my theory. This is the Peter Young theory, so I don't know if this is yours or Dr. Hassan or any other cult expert. And I don't consider myself a cult expert. I consider the expert on what I went through. And now I'm reading a lot about cults. But to me, cults have a leader, not leaders, a leader. There is no succession plan in a cult. There is no hierarchy in a cult. So when Uncle Robert dies, it's over. Like when Keith is done, it's over. There is no succession. I'm going to hand the baton off because for the cult leader, there's not a human being on the face of the earth that's worthy of taking over the mantle, right? So I don't know what will happen when Uncle Robert dies. Again, he's in his 80s, I think, somewhere around there. I just think it kind of just goes away. And we were never a group that was actively pursuing other members. We were not out on the street corner trying to recruit other people. I don't know what it was like for you guys, but we were the exact opposite. We were on Four Year Pearls before the spying. We re-circled the wagons around Uncle Robert because of course he knew the true dangers in the world. He knew what was pulling the strings in the world. Thus his life was in danger. So we couldn't say certain words on the cell phone. We had to shred our trash and we wouldn't share his particular ideology and theology with others. And again, the way it was expressed with me was we had to protect Uncle Robert. I mean, Paige was willing to lay down her life for Uncle Robert. I think at the back of my mind, I also realized the reason we didn't share it is because it was nuts and most of the people outside would have seen very quickly how nuts it was.

Speaker 2:
[22:53] I like your theory. I think that is definitely true in this case. I think there are some cults where there is a hierarchy and the baton will get passed either to a child or a second in command but I think you are right that the ultimate narcissistic leader thinks that they are the only one who could lead it. Do you know if Hughes read your book?

Speaker 3:
[23:09] I don't know but I would imagine so because at the court hearing, it was really crazy. I would imagine there are a lot of court hearings that are really kind of dull, not much happens. We were there all day and it was nuts. She said false fictional narrative in court three or four times. I am thinking that had to come from Booty. Now, they kind of wisened up because when she first left, they didn't try and hide anything. Booty is brilliant. He is smarter than everybody else in the world. Why would we try to hide anything? So the letters, the emails were all nuts. They were all crazy. They all showed clear parental alienation. After the Gardner and Lightham report came out in 2018, Booty was now hidden. So they started calling him her godfather, not Uncle Robert. Tried to normalize him. So at this last court hearing where my book was presented as evidence, Peter's new husband was there, my former in-laws were there, and then her older brother, who's the only other adult that I know of that's in the cult, were there, and one of my daughters, who I've kind of an estranged relationship. So Booty never shows up anymore. They've really tried to kind of hide him and keep him in the background. My guess is he's read the book though.

Speaker 2:
[24:19] Can you give us a little update on what was the trial, what's happened? What did the judge say? Yeah. We love when justice works, by the way.

Speaker 3:
[24:27] You know, and it has worked. I'm, for the most part, you know, libertarian. I don't want the government involved in my life. I've never wanted the government involved in my life. You know, the less government, the better, right? I don't care what side of the aisle, just limited government. But, you know, courts exist for a reason. And in my case, I think the courts got it right. And it was never kind of a, we need to dig into this. It was, you know, in your face, obvious to everybody. So we've had two Gardner & Adle items, and they've both agreed. And then we had a standing master, which is kind of like an assistant judge. And then Paige accused the standing master after several years of trying to financially benefit from pedophilia. So then the main judge stepped in and said, I'm taking over now. So the standing master, two Gardner & Adle items, all the lawyers, all the counselors, we had a parenting evaluator come in and evaluate me and Paige. They all have basically said the same thing, that there is a problem with Paige, that there may not be a diagnosable mental illness, but there's clearly a problem with Robert. There's a cult, there is cult influence, and there's been horrific parental alienation. It hasn't changed since 2018. So the court sent the three youngest back to me, and she had supervised visits for years. They've lightened up a little bit, but the two youngest still live with me. She continues to fight, and she continues to, in court documents, call me all kinds of names. It's crazy to read. That, you know, it's not like somebody says, oh, you're crazy, or oh, you're nuts. It's different when someone will file to the court, you know, a hundred page document, and label you demonic, and satanic, and a fraud, and all of this. And you would think, after all of the years of seeing the response from the court and all the professionals, hey, maybe tone it down a little bit. Hasn't happened.

Speaker 2:
[26:12] We haven't talked about also, and you might not agree with this, so we'll cut it out if it's a problem, but the pages in two cults, doTERRA.

Speaker 3:
[26:23] So, okay, that's funny. They don't allow me to say it at all. So I read the book Cultish. Have you read the book Cultish?

Speaker 2:
[26:30] Of course. Of course, Amanda Montell wrote the foreword for our next book.

Speaker 3:
[26:34] Okay. And I don't even know if you guys are even quoted in Cultish, so I finished that last summer. And, you know, she and I loved her book. I don't agree with all of her points of view. But so, you know, she goes after multi-level marketing and groups like doTERRA, et cetera, et cetera. Again, that's where my theory of cults come in. Have you read the book Uncultured by Daniela Young? Okay. I really enjoyed Uncultured because her point is this, and tell me if you think I'm getting it wrong. Her point is that there is a difference between a true cult and really unhealthy dysfunctional culture. Like I wouldn't call the army a cult. I would say there are times where the armed forces got some really unhealthy dysfunctional culture, and there's a difference between the two.

Speaker 1:
[27:20] And the locker room can have that.

Speaker 3:
[27:22] Exactly.

Speaker 1:
[27:22] I've seen locker rooms that have been like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Speaker 3:
[27:24] So is doTERRA a cult, is AMWE whatever a cult, or does it have really dysfunctional culture? I fall on the pendulum that says it's got a really dysfunctional culture. Some people call it a cult, makes for a good discussion.

Speaker 2:
[27:37] Agreed. Let's take a little break from the cultiverse. Here's a word from our sponsors. Thank you for listening. Now, let's dive back into the Cultiverse. Here in our space, and the reason why we call our podcast A Little Bit Culty, and it's another way of saying it, is that there's things that happen that are culty. This might not be a traditional cult. It's not Jim Jones, it's not Waco. There are people in our space, like I'm gonna hold up this book, you might be interested in Hey Hon by Emily Limpolson. And she really breaks down how MLMs are commercial cults. So in our space, the people who are anti-MLM say, and I've actually kind of changed my opinion about this over the years. I used to say that MLMs are culty and they have unhealthy tactics. Like you said, it's a toxic culture, but.

Speaker 1:
[28:42] Well, that's where the spectrum comes in.

Speaker 2:
[28:43] It is, and it's on the spectrum that, you know, Hassan talks about. Now I just say it's a commercial cult. They're the same tactics. So doTERRA is, doTERRA is kind of one of the, and by the way, I love this, I do love oils. So it's, I'm not shitting on oils, but anyone who wants to know how Paige's mind works, I love that you've included some of her letters and emails even one of her former business associates in doTERRA. Like how she attacked you is how she attacked everybody. And it's a pattern of abuse that's clear. Yeah. Abuse that's clear. Anyway.

Speaker 1:
[29:14] That's the word that was missing.

Speaker 2:
[29:15] Yes. But if you check this book out too.

Speaker 3:
[29:17] Right before Paige left me, so this would have been, I think in 2016, doTERRA has, I kind of tread lightly. I don't want to get sued, but so doTERRA has their annual conference. And I was going to go with her and it was all about her, right? How brilliant she is and she was cultivating her doTERRA business. I could look back and say, well, it's because she probably in the back of her mind knew she's going to leave me and she needed to go support herself. So she's trying to develop this business. The conference is a big deal. She loved it. This I think was like a third year in a row going. Well, the last minute it was, well, somebody's got to stay back with the five kids. So I stayed and Robert Booty took my ticket. So they go to Salt Lake City to get to this conference, share a hotel room, which of course, you know, it's a whole other story. And the president of doTERRA, you would think the annual conference, the guy's kind of busy, right? Well, Page has got some guts, right? Emails the guy and requests an audience and gets it. And so there's Page and Robert Booty, you know, at doTERRA headquarters, somewhere down there in Utah, the day before the conference starts. And he's sharing his pearls of wisdom with the president of doTERRA. I have no idea what they spoke about. I wish I was a fly on the wall and could have heard that. But just think about the grandiose sense of self. I think Hassan talks about that. It's another trait of cult leaders that they are so brilliant. You know, everybody's going to be listening to them and they're sharing their pearls of wisdom. And so here's this poor leader of doTERRA. Who knows what was going through his mind as there's Robert Booty and Page talking to this guy before their annual conference. And then, you know, again, she was, I believe, probably trying to sell the oils to create her own business so she could be financially secure to go off on her own. And unlike you, Sarah, I still have a drawer full of oils. I still use them. I don't sell the oils. They're a great product. But I grew up in a world too. My dad was an actuary. My brother's a commercial banker. My brother's a lawyer. I got two other brothers who were actuaries. Growing up in that world, if you talked about a multi-level marketing, you'd get a lot of eye rolls. Like, oh, really? You're into that? And that was kind of the world I grew up in. So then when that was kind of shared with me from the cloths, because there were others, I think Pages of Parents did Amway, something else, I kind of rolled my eyes. I thought, really? Multi-level marketing? But they were all in. They were all in on it. Oh, by the way, Robert never had a job. The guy never had a full-time job. He told this story that he thought was great, how when he was getting ready to marry his wife or propose to her, she would make the money and he would be her mission field. Translation is, you work and support me. And that was their merit. So then we would send tithe money. We would send tithe money. So I would, my in-laws, the one older brother who had not been kicked out of the family because he bent the knee to Uncle Robert. We would all send him money every month, tithes, the Christian belief that you share your blessings. And then he would go to casinos all the time. And I remember when I was on the phone with an old aunt of mine and explained all this because it had been so normalized for me. She's like, stop, Peter, you guys sent him money every month and he went to casinos all the time? And I remember thinking, wow, when you put it like that, it doesn't sound good, does it? For so many years, it didn't dawn on me. Unbelievable.

Speaker 2:
[32:31] Have you ever thought about going after him for fraud?

Speaker 3:
[32:33] No, I have braced myself for years that he will one day come after me. Now, I thought that they might come after me and my book because of libel. So I went through my book. You know, you just, you go through your Word document or pages because I have a Mac. And 11% of my book are direct quotes from books, from Bibles, from emails and from letters, direct quotes. And I stand behind every single word of it, like literally every single word of it. And so there's a part of me that's like, I mean, I don't want to tempt them here because they probably know that I'm on podcasts and watch some of them. Go ahead, sue me. You know, I stand behind every single word in this book. So I thought maybe they would come after me. They haven't yet. And I hope they don't. But I've never really thought about going after him for fraud. I'm still paying off legal bills. I don't need any more legal bills.

Speaker 2:
[33:20] I'm sure. For those people who are like, I don't know, like there's some good ones or bad ones. I think the thing that's the main similarity between cults and MLMs and your actuary family will be able to tell you this. If you look at the math and you crunch the numbers about how much it takes to build the business versus how much you make, is that the whole thing is a lie. It's fraudulent in and of itself. You're saying, hey, you can do this business and be financially free. I don't know the math off the top of my head, it's in that book, 98.9% of people never make money. They spend more than they make. So that's the bait and switch. The hook is like with Booty, your salvation and your relationship to Christ or whatever, that's the hook, but you're actually joining a cult. The hook with an MLM is financial freedom and your indentured servitude and you'll never make money. So I think that's the through line to remember, is that it's a lie, it's a bait and switch, it's impossible.

Speaker 3:
[34:12] It's a Ponzi scheme.

Speaker 2:
[34:13] It's a Ponzi scheme, yeah. Okay, that's all I wanted to say. Go ahead, Nippy, you want to know, where's everybody now? How are you?

Speaker 1:
[34:18] How are you? How is your family? What remaining damage do you feel like you have to deal with? Because I was gonna say this earlier, I think what Booty was intentionally trying to do is humiliate you in front of your family to discredit you. And that takes time to repair, and the kids are gonna have to have certain perceptual shifts about that's what happened. Where are they in their journey? How are you doing with it? And your patience is commendable.

Speaker 3:
[34:39] Thank you. So let me talk about the kids first. I'm not gonna provide too many details, but the courts intervened. When the courts intervened, the two oldest boys were high school, college age. So they weren't really a part of the parenting plan. That's what happens when you get divorced. You got kids, you get a parenting plan. The judge says, here's how you're gonna run things. So the kids, three youngest came to live with me. Great five years. I had three kids, 24-seven. We went through a lot. I learned a lot. So today, I had a wonderful time. So unfortunately, the middle child, I don't have much contact with her. I have some contact with the two oldest children. Parenting's a marathon, not a sprint. And I love them. And I hope one day, and I pray every day, that we could have a more healthy relationship. But they're doing well. And I don't think they have anything to do with Booty. But they still feel like mom's right, dad's wrong, dad's the bad guy, dad's the villain in all this. Hopefully one day that'll change. The two youngest are still with me, doing very well. There's been a lot of ups and downs. We've shared a lot in this podcast and I share a lot in my book. There's a lot I don't share. There's a lot we went through that I don't want to share. And hard on kids. And so there's a lot that they've had to go through. And my kids are tough because of what they went through. But I have a great relationship with them and I love them dearly. I love being a father. I love this time with them. It's a bit hard having to pay all the legal bills and be a dad 24-7 and try to make a living, try to write books. It's a challenge. That's okay. I pray every day the Lord will give me wisdom and strength and patience and energy to get through the day. And when I run out, I go to bed. I wake up the next day and hope I've got more energy. So they are doing well. I wish I could have learned these lessons. I wish I could have learned these lessons another way. But I am a million times stronger now because of what I've been through. I don't walk around on eggshells around a wife I'm afraid of, intimidated by. I don't down my every thought indeed because I've got a family guru questioning me on everything I do. I was crushed. I didn't just hit rock bottom. I bounced on rock bottom. I bounced and bounced on rock bottom. And the Lord rescued me. The Lord rescued me through my faith, through my friends, through my family. They opened my eyes and ears to the truth. I never lost my salvation. I was temporarily blinded by a fat little narcissistic cult leader who loved to hear himself talk. And so I don't say this as someone who's arrogant. There's a book in the Bible, James, James chapter one, it says, and I'm paraphrasing, that if you lack wisdom, ask the Lord and he'll give it to you. But you must believe and not doubt. Because if you doubt, you're like a wave of the sea blown and tossed by the wind. I've asked for wisdom and he has given it to me. And I know he has. And again, I don't say that he's arrogant. I just know he has. I know he's fulfilled his promise. He's given me so much wisdom. I'm very thankful. I am the man I am today. I don't feel any shame. I don't feel any guilt. In my rear view mirror is a huge, you know, multi-car accident. That's my life. But I've learned from it and I've grown. And because of people like you that are willing to give me this platform, I can share my story as a cautionary tale and tell other people the journey in and out of a cult. It's horrific. And you don't want to go through it. And so learn from me, right? Learn from your book, learn from my book. So that's where I'm at. I'm the man the Lord wanted me to be. I really wish I could have learned easier, but I guess I was a tough nut to crack as well. He got my attention. And so I love being a dad and I love sharing my story. I write about my book briefly, but not to get into too much theology. There's a story in the gospels about a guy that's a demon possessed. Robert Booty said I was demon possessed. I was incapable of receiving a salvation. I'm possessed by a legion of demons. Okay, dude. Anyway, in the gospels, there's a story.

Speaker 1:
[38:25] He's the demon possessed one.

Speaker 3:
[38:27] That really is. And Christ saves him. The guy's living in a cave, cutting himself, breaking chains, etc. So now the guy's in his right mind. And he asks Christ, can I follow you? And Christ says, no, I've got something more important for you. Go home and tell everyone what the Lord has done for you. And that's what I do. I tell my story. That's what the Lord has done for me. It's crazy. It's messy. It's bizarre. But it is, at this point, victorious. Is there still work to be done? You bet. And I hold out hope that one day I'll have that relationship with my kids.

Speaker 1:
[38:58] I think you will. I think you will. I think you've demonstrated you're not who they've been told you are and have faith that will be how they see you. I think that's going to happen.

Speaker 2:
[39:09] Peter, thank you. Is there anything that we didn't ask you that you want to say? I feel like that was your guitar solo at the end just now. So I sort of want to end it there. But we'll put in the show notes where to find you, where to find your book. Is there anything else we didn't ask you that's important for you to express?

Speaker 3:
[39:25] The only other thing would be that I know you two know this. It's hard to really accurately convey, but it could happen to anybody. Be aware, have those awkward conversations with friends that you think are vulnerable. Cults can easily hide within society. Sometimes they're not obvious. Sometimes, they fly below the radar. Stay in contact with each other. Stay in fellowship. I don't care if it's Bible study or Friday night beers. Stay in contact. Don't get isolated, right? Have a strong support system around you.

Speaker 2:
[39:53] Such good advice. Peter, thank you. I'm so glad you wrote this book. I wish you all the best with the rest of your healing journey and your reconciliation with your family.

Speaker 1:
[40:03] Read this book.

Speaker 3:
[40:04] Read this book. Thank you guys very much.

Speaker 2:
[40:06] Thank you, Peter.

Speaker 3:
[40:07] Thank you.

Speaker 1:
[40:29] Read the book. He goes way into it. It's way crazier than the story. Well, not way crazier than what he said, but you get the details and you understand it on a deeper level.

Speaker 2:
[40:37] And it's a quick read. It's so amazing how much of his correspondence he kept, because if he hadn't kept that, you almost wouldn't believe it.

Speaker 1:
[40:44] Well, that's the whole thing with all these. No one would have believed Keith Raniere if people were coming out and saying Keith Raniere said that stuff.

Speaker 2:
[40:49] He's got the proof.

Speaker 1:
[40:51] He's got the receipts. Thank you, Peter.

Speaker 2:
[40:53] Thank you, Peter. Hope you're doing great. Hope our new book gets to you by the time you hear this and that you're reading it and helps you with another level or layer of healing. Till next time, everybody, let us know what you thought of the episode. Patreon, Spotify, Apple, wherever you listen. Stay safe out there.

Speaker 1:
[41:08] Do it.

Speaker 2:
[41:29] We hope you're enjoying A Little Bit Culty. If so, please do show us some love. Drop a rating or leave a review. Hit subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen. And subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/alittlebitculty.

Speaker 1:
[41:42] Even better, send this episode to someone who needs it. Maybe they're in a cult. Maybe they're just a little bit susceptible. Or maybe they just love a good story. Spread the word, spread the love. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

Speaker 2:
[41:53] A Little Bit Culty is a Trace 120 production.

Speaker 1:
[41:55] Executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames in collaboration with producer Will Retherford at Citizens of Sound. Our co-creator is Jess Tardy.

Speaker 2:
[42:05] Our production coordinator is Lesli Dinsmore.

Speaker 1:
[42:08] Writing by Sandra Nomoto and social media marketing by Eric Skwarzynski and Brooke Keane.

Speaker 2:
[42:13] Our theme song Cultivated is by the artists Jon Bryant and Nygel Asselin.