transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:06] Pushkin.

Speaker 2:
[00:11] Hi.

Speaker 1:
[00:12] Hello.

Speaker 2:
[00:13] I think people probably know the drill. We're going to revisit an old episode, and we're going to have an update.

Speaker 1:
[00:19] That's not good broadcasting. Oh, you don't say to people they know the drill. You tell them the drill. You use your powers as a storyteller.

Speaker 2:
[00:29] Hey, everyone, here's the drill.

Speaker 1:
[00:31] And drills are exciting. Think of a fire drill when you were in elementary school. How great was that?

Speaker 2:
[00:36] You're getting out of class.

Speaker 1:
[00:38] Especially if you were in gym, like you ran outside in the winter snow in your shorts. It was great. So yeah, here's the drill.

Speaker 2:
[00:46] Today, we're going to re-listen to an episode called Skye.

Speaker 1:
[00:50] Oh, it's a classic episode.

Speaker 2:
[00:52] You know, we get a lot of pitches about being cut out of friend groups, about being bullied in some way. I think it's unfortunately like a pretty common story that a lot of people can relate to. But what we really liked about Skye's story is that we really liked that it involved her son and that she was doing it at the encouragement of her son.

Speaker 1:
[01:13] And now, that same son from the story, get this, this is a bit of a spoiler alert. He's now an adult.

Speaker 2:
[01:22] Yeah, a young adult.

Speaker 1:
[01:24] That's what time will do to you.

Speaker 2:
[01:25] Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 1:
[01:26] Make a little kid a young man, make an old man like me an even older man.

Speaker 2:
[01:30] Yep.

Speaker 1:
[01:30] Sad, really.

Speaker 2:
[01:31] You remember the Joey episode?

Speaker 1:
[01:33] I do, of course.

Speaker 2:
[01:34] Do you remember how you did Skye and Joey on the same trip?

Speaker 1:
[01:37] Oh yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2:
[01:38] You did just like a week of knocking out people's problems.

Speaker 1:
[01:41] So productive, so helpful.

Speaker 2:
[01:43] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[01:44] I should have a private jet. And on the side, it would say, Mr. Helpful.

Speaker 2:
[01:48] And when you took off, people would clap like Superman and they'd say, thank you, Mr. Helpful.

Speaker 1:
[01:53] Do you think there's room in the Marvel universe for Mr. Helpful?

Speaker 2:
[01:57] It's not the catchiest name.

Speaker 1:
[01:59] The power of helping people.

Speaker 2:
[02:01] Well, sit back, enjoy, and then we're going to hear from Skye at the end.

Speaker 1:
[02:06] Oh, but first, a word from our sponsors. Hi, podcast friends. As regular listeners know, I try to run a family-friendly-ish podcast. But because it's integral to the plot, in this episode of Heavyweight, we dropped the F-bomb an unprecedented nine times. If they were giving out Peabody's for swearing, maybe I'd get one. Also, as long as I'm giving advisories, I also pronounce the word garage as garage. I encourage you to listen anyway.

Speaker 3:
[02:45] Hello?

Speaker 1:
[02:46] Did you get a message from me a couple months ago? A phone message was on your birthday. I was wishing you a happy birthday.

Speaker 3:
[02:56] It's possible.

Speaker 1:
[02:57] I didn't hear anything back, so I was concerned.

Speaker 3:
[03:00] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[03:01] When someone leaves you a message on your birthday, you have no obligation to return that message.

Speaker 4:
[03:06] Oh, good.

Speaker 1:
[03:06] But, that said, Oh my God. It would have been nice to get, I'm not saying a thank you card, but you know.

Speaker 3:
[03:12] So if I was under no obligation, why are you now giving me suggestions as to how I should have responded?

Speaker 1:
[03:16] Some things in life aren't obligatory, but we just do them. You know what I mean?

Speaker 3:
[03:20] Absolutely, like picking up the phone when I just saw that you called me.

Speaker 1:
[03:24] Exactly, like, hey, wait a minute. From Gimlet Media, I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is Heavyweight. Today's episode, Skye. Skye and her son Clark have a ritual.

Speaker 5:
[03:55] Well, I don't know about you, but I...

Speaker 1:
[03:56] Every night after his teeth are brushed and he's all tucked in, right before Clark goes to sleep, Skye sits down on the edge of his bed, and they talk.

Speaker 5:
[04:06] What was your favorite part of that movie?

Speaker 6:
[04:08] Ooh, probably like the end.

Speaker 5:
[04:10] It was a good end.

Speaker 6:
[04:11] And also the helicopter scene was good.

Speaker 1:
[04:13] Clark's 11. So naturally, there's a lot of discussion about comic books and movies.

Speaker 5:
[04:19] I thought it was a good movie. You know, the original Jumanji was not funny.

Speaker 1:
[04:24] But there's something about the stillness of nighttime that also frees Clark up to speak in a way that he doesn't normally. Not only does he tell Skye about what he's watching and reading, he tells her about his feelings. He shares stories about what's going on at school. And Skye shares stories too, stories from her childhood. Some stories she tells just to entertain Clark, but other stories she tells to impart a lesson. There's one story in particular she's told Clark over and over again throughout the years, and lately it's been coming up a lot. Recently, Skye told me the story.

Speaker 5:
[05:05] So, the story, in a way the story starts when I moved…

Speaker 1:
[05:10] When she was 11 years old, Skye was best friends with a group of four girls. They wore a spree sweatshirts and watched Love Boat on the weekends. They were the popular girls.

Speaker 5:
[05:21] That was sort of the vibe of that group, was like, we're exclusive and we're kind of the shit. You know how like in high school they have, you know, most beautiful and most popular and all of those. We decided to make our own book of, you know, awarding people various prizes. We gave me best eyes and I remember sort of having this pride in that.

Speaker 1:
[05:48] They spent all of fifth grade together. Then summer came and with it, long days filled with lazy bike rides and trips to the candy shop. But early one summer morning, Skye woke up to find her yard had been teepied, covered in toilet paper and there was more.

Speaker 5:
[06:06] Someone had written, fuck you on our garage door. And we had a double garage and so fuck was on one and you was on the other and they were written in large white letters on our brown garage.

Speaker 1:
[06:23] Skye's mom had seen the vandals make their getaway. The words fuck you had been written by none other than Skye's four best friends.

Speaker 5:
[06:34] And they had been written in paint. I wish they had done it with something that had come off because I do remember this feeling of like being driven home day after day and seeing those words on the garage door. Teeping someone's house is one thing. It's sort of a common prank. But the fact that they wrote fuck you, that felt to me like it really came from anger. And they had to have brought the paint. You know, there had to have been some thought put into this.

Speaker 1:
[07:05] Why had they done it? What were they angry about? Skye had no idea. Did you ever see those girls again?

Speaker 5:
[07:18] Well, I saw them again for sure. We all funneled into this junior high school that fall. And I think that I just avoided them. I never, ever said a word to any of the four girls ever again. I pretended it never happened.

Speaker 1:
[07:39] And when Skye tells Clark this story, here's where she delivers the moral. Awful things do happen, but in the end, everything turns out fine. Skye grew up, got married, has a job she likes and a family she loves. Her story, she tells him, has a happy ending. In the past, when he's heard this story, Clark's taken his mom's lesson at face value. But Clark is now the same age Skye was when her friends turned on her. He's starting to see his own classmates leave old friends behind for the more popular crowd. For the first time, he's able to imagine what it would be like if his own small group of friends suddenly cast him out, stop coming over to his house to play video games, stop speaking to them all together. So Skye's moral, that everyone lives happily ever after, is starting to feel untrue. And so, Clark has a question for his mother. Why didn't she ever confront her friends about what they did? Why not then? But also, he asks Skye, why not now?

Speaker 6:
[08:48] Like, did they do it for themselves or because of you? Or was it because of like something you did or something?

Speaker 1:
[08:56] Clark brings up Skye's story during their bedtime ritual, asking for details, weighing the injustice, fantasizing about Skye, looking up her old friends, and confronting them with some questions.

Speaker 6:
[09:08] I think you can't be like the person that you normally are, where you're like timid little mommy.

Speaker 5:
[09:15] Funny to me that you think of me as timid mommy. That's very interesting.

Speaker 6:
[09:19] Yeah. Well, I have like a lot of occasions to prove that. Like your New Year's resolution was to say no more often. That was your resolution because you were too timid to say no to people before that.

Speaker 5:
[09:35] Well, I like to think that it's less about me being timid and more about me being a can-do kind of person. There it is right there.

Speaker 1:
[09:48] At school functions, Clark watches his mom try to accommodate the other parents and get steamrolled in the process. In restaurants, he sees his mom settle for the wrong meal rather than bother the waiter. For once, he wants Skye to stop worrying about everyone else's feelings. He wants her to focus on herself.

Speaker 5:
[10:08] I would really love to know, like, why it's important to you.

Speaker 6:
[10:13] It's basically for me more of like my mom avenging those people. I just wanted you to kind of like get your avenge.

Speaker 5:
[10:23] My revenge?

Speaker 6:
[10:25] Avenge yourself. Sorry, I'm using the wrong word. You got to be like, you did this. And do you remember why it happened? And say sorry to me.

Speaker 5:
[10:38] He said at the end, mom, you've got to figure this out. You, you've got to go for it. You have to have a chance to find out why this happened.

Speaker 1:
[10:54] It's not just Clark who feels this way. There's someone else who also wonders why this happened, and has always wished Skye had had the chance to ask.

Speaker 4:
[11:05] Hello?

Speaker 1:
[11:06] Is this Rachel?

Speaker 4:
[11:09] Yes, it is.

Speaker 1:
[11:10] This is Skye's mom, Rachel, the only eyewitness to what happened that night. And the person talking to her while chewing a hunk of Muenster cheese and challah bread because his boss Alex thinks taking lunch breaks is more of a biz-ops thing, is me.

Speaker 4:
[11:27] I got out of my chair and I stood at the window and pulled back the drape and I see their bikes sort of going off into the night.

Speaker 1:
[11:42] The night the girl showed up around two or three in the morning, Rachel was reading in an armchair by the window. She's always up in the middle of the night. It's a habit that began in childhood. She tells me that her own mom, Skye's grandmother, suffered from schizophrenia. She was unpredictable and the middle of the night was the only time the house was ever quiet and safe. It was during those calm nights alone that Rachel began writing poetry.

Speaker 4:
[12:08] And here I am all these years later and I'm still doing it. There's something holy about the middle of the night. Nobody's hassling you and you can really hear yourself somehow.

Speaker 1:
[12:27] But on the night the vandal struck, she could also hear four 11-year-old girls making their getaway. When the sun came up, Rachel saw the fuck you on the garage and immediately she phoned up one of the girls and spoke with both her and her mom. Well neither denied what had happened, nothing much came of the conversation. And after that, Skye begged Rachel not to make any more phone calls. The idea of confronting anyone just upset Skye more. So Rachel stopped calling and after a few days, things seemed to go back to normal.

Speaker 4:
[13:02] We felt it was over and for her it really wasn't. It really took her being, I think, grown up for her to start saying to me, I think about this all the time. And it was shocking to me. I had not understood that and I felt dopey that I hadn't understood that because I thought I was pretty well attuned to her and her feelings. It broke my heart. She always understood how to sit in with people completely unlike her parents. My husband was born in Finland and was a mathematician, and had his PhD when he was 19. I was this strange high school dropout poet. I mean, we were really odd and eccentric birds, and here was this kid who was just exquisitely normal. To us, she's always been a wonder. You know, like, who is this very social being? This was a kid whose first word was high, and who when she was small, literally sat in the front step all day and said hi to every person who passed on the sidewalk. And we loved her for that. And what happened with the girls? This had the effect of making her more, you know, pulling in her wings.

Speaker 1:
[14:48] And this is the person Clark sees today. Someone who keeps her wings tucked in so tight for fear of them getting in anyone's way, that she's forgotten how to open them. Rachel knows that Clark has recently begun urging his mom to be less timid, and she approves.

Speaker 4:
[15:05] There's something authoritative about a child. They haven't had, they're not all hammered by doubts and worries about what they're saying. They're like, well, why didn't you do this? You know?

Speaker 1:
[15:20] Rachel had asked me to call at the end of her work night. It's now 7:30 a.m., close to her bedtime, so we say our goodbyes. But just before putting down the phone, she offers a final benediction.

Speaker 4:
[15:33] I thought it was so beautiful the way he wanted her to figure this out, because she'll hear that from him in a way that she probably could never hear that from me. It has more of a chance to wake her up.

Speaker 1:
[15:51] And with that, Rachel heads off to bed, and I turn back to Skye, who, with a little help from Clark, is still trying to wake up.

Speaker 5:
[16:01] He does have this sense of, but that's an unfinished thing.

Speaker 1:
[16:05] Yeah, like the good, that this good ending hasn't fully happened yet. Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[16:11] Yeah, the good ending hasn't happened. Now it's sort of turning into a different story, which is that it's kind of never too late to summon courage and do something that scares you. I guess, in a way, I want to live up to his, to who I think he'd like me to be, you know? I think, like, I need to show him that I can stand up for myself.

Speaker 1:
[16:55] 35 years later, and Skye's finally decided she's ready. She just needs help reaching the girls and not backing down when she does. So you wanna do this?

Speaker 5:
[17:08] I think that I wanna do this, yes, I wanna do this. You know, now I'll be able to say, I did what I could.

Speaker 1:
[17:19] And if you wanna be able to say, you did what you could to save scads of cash with some truly great deals, here's the chance you've been dreaming of your entire life. Skye and I get to work reaching out to the four girls, Sam, Nikki, Randy and Tessa. We begin with Sam, because Skye already has her contact info. They'd run into each other at their 10 year high school reunion. Skye, Sam had said, it's me. It would have been the perfect opportunity to ask about the fuck you on the garage door, but Skye just couldn't bring herself to mention it. So instead, they made awkward small talk.

Speaker 5:
[18:10] And then she friended me on Facebook, which practically made me laugh. But I, this sounds ridiculous, but I didn't want to be rude. And so I accepted her friendship.

Speaker 1:
[18:25] I helped Skye write a Facebook message to Sam, saying she has some questions about the end of their friendship. But with no response, Skye follows up again and again. Eventually, Sam writes back. We just naturally grew apart as life events progressed, she says. She concludes by saying that Skye's attempts to contact her are making her feel, quote, overwhelmed and stressed. And that makes Skye feel bad. Second is Nicky, who says that even though Skye's mom clearly remembers her being there that day, she absolutely wasn't. In fact, she says, she and Skye weren't even that close. Third comes Randy. Randy's hard to get a hold of, so when we get no answer on her house phone, we try all the numbers we can find. We leave her repeated messages, but it seems like she's not even getting them. But as it turns out, she's gotten all of them. Because she sends Skye an email to say that she's not happy about it. In fact, she's creeped out. Skye was at the grocery store when she received the email.

Speaker 5:
[19:40] I was in line and I completely was out of my body as I was reading it. I so forgot where I was that someone had to say, are you in line? And I was like, no, I'm not. And I had to like push my cart away from the checkout stand because I could not focus.

Speaker 1:
[20:03] Skye went into damage control mode, writing back to Randy to say how deeply sorry she was. I asked her to read me what she'd sent.

Speaker 5:
[20:12] Randy, I'm so grateful that you wrote me back. It makes me cringe to think about how semi-creepy and weird it must have seemed to get those messages. Ugh, I'm kicking myself for letting that happen. I'm still hoping to talk to you privately and just explain myself. Would that be okay?

Speaker 1:
[20:31] Like, you know, is there a kind of, like, do you feel like your default is to sort of apologize for having reached out?

Speaker 5:
[20:44] Yeah, I do. That has occurred to me.

Speaker 1:
[20:50] Later, Skye shares the email with Clark, and it seems like it's occurred to him as well.

Speaker 6:
[20:56] I think you were over-apologetic. If you set yourself as the kind of character who is like, oh, sorry, sorry, sorry, I shouldn't have done that. That automatically makes her basically, like...

Speaker 5:
[21:08] Gives her power?

Speaker 6:
[21:09] Yeah, puts her in a better spot than you're in. And that's bad.

Speaker 1:
[21:15] At Skye's insistence, Randy finally agrees to a phone call. But in the end, all she tells Skye is that she doesn't remember that night, doesn't remember any toilet paper or garage door. She doesn't remember anything at all. Of the four friends, only one remains, Tessa, the girl Skye's mom phoned directly after the incident. Over the next couple weeks, I speak with Tessa several times. She can't decide if she wants to talk with Skye. For one thing, she says, it was so long ago that she doesn't remember much, to which I rejoin that she's all we've got. For another, she adds, getting contacted like this through a third party interlocutionary international podcasting host is pretty weird, to which I admit that it is slightly unconventional. Finally, Tessa says, she doesn't want to inadvertently drag the other girls' names through the dirt for something they did as kids, to which I say, well, let's change those names and draw some pseudonyms through the dirt. And once I agree to change the names of the four girls, Tessa, not her real name, agrees to sit down with Skye, still her real name so she can finally have a conversation about the night in question. Both Skye and Tessa live in California, pretty close to where they grew up. I figure my presence at their meeting could be calming, helpful even. All Skye has to do is invite me out there to join her. I like California.

Speaker 5:
[22:55] I know, I love it.

Speaker 1:
[22:56] But because of her cursive timidity, Skye just doesn't have the lima beans to ask. So, I continue to offer her prompts. I haven't been there in some time.

Speaker 5:
[23:09] Well, it's a lovely state.

Speaker 1:
[23:11] After several minutes of this elaborate dance, I get to the point, for both our sakes. So, do you think that, do you think I should come?

Speaker 5:
[23:23] That would be amazing.

Speaker 1:
[23:27] And so, it's off to California for some long-overdue Q&A. Hi. Good, how are you guys? Hi Clark, nice to meet you. Skye picks me up at the hotel. Clark's along too, to make sure his mom doesn't lose her nerve.

Speaker 5:
[23:47] Clark, you can continue to navigate for me.

Speaker 6:
[23:50] I have like the way of someone.

Speaker 1:
[23:51] Clark sits in the passenger seat, leafing through a comic book. All right, let me, I'm just going to throw this in here if that's okay. Yeah, do whatever you need to do. I toss my bag into the back of the hatchback, and we head off to meet Tessa. It felt great to be in San Francisco. It's just like the mamas and the papas sang. If one is going to San Francisco, one should wear flowers in one's hair. As we speed down the highway, I close my eyes, lean back, and would that I had hair, enjoy the wind blowing through it.

Speaker 5:
[24:36] Wait, is the trunk open?

Speaker 1:
[24:38] Oh wow. It seems that in my excitement to hit the streets of San Fran, I'd left the hatchback door open, which it turns out is the source of the San Franciscan breeze. Gee whiz, I, sorry about that, God. Skye finds a place on the shoulder of the highway to pull over. Oh man. And shuts the trunk door. Oh God. And with that, we were back on our way. That's why they call me Mr. Excitement. Actually, no one calls me Mr. Excitement. San Francisco is pretty.

Speaker 5:
[25:29] We're not in San Francisco, you know that, right?

Speaker 1:
[25:31] I mean, we're in. As we drive to meet Tessa, I ask Skye how she's doing.

Speaker 5:
[25:45] I feel, I feel nervousited, which is a word that...

Speaker 6:
[25:51] I am not.

Speaker 1:
[25:52] When have you used the word nervousited, Clark?

Speaker 6:
[25:57] Like before, like baseball games and stuff like that. I mean, I kind of feel nervousited.

Speaker 1:
[26:05] Nervousited is a Portmanteau word, like the way, say, romance, a word denoting an incestuous relationship between brothers is, or chillax, the act of chilling out with a bar of family-sized ex-lax.

Speaker 5:
[26:21] How do you feel about meeting? Do you want to meet her?

Speaker 6:
[26:25] I will resist temptations to punch her over what she did.

Speaker 1:
[26:30] Clark is 11 years old. In the comic books he reads, that's how problems are solved, with punches, kung-fu chops. Writing the scales is a simpler business. It's one thing to hear stories about his mom being stepped on. It's another to be in the same room with one of the people who did the stepping. Skye tries to tamp down his need for revenge.

Speaker 5:
[26:52] Well, as we were talking about last night, before you went to sleep.

Speaker 6:
[26:58] No, you want forgiveness.

Speaker 5:
[26:59] Forgiveness, forgiveness. We need to find the forgiveness.

Speaker 1:
[27:06] I wanted a quiet place for Skye and Tessa to talk, and it turned out that on the weekends, the local university had an unoccupied studio.

Speaker 5:
[27:14] I think we're basically here.

Speaker 1:
[27:16] We pull in to the empty campus parking lot.

Speaker 5:
[27:19] Clark, you want to look and make sure I'm within the lines?

Speaker 6:
[27:21] Yeah, you're within the lines.

Speaker 1:
[27:29] Let's get set up. So this is where Clark and I will sit. The studio is only big enough for Skye and Tessa, so Clark and I sit in the control booth, where we'll be able to eavesdrop on the conversation. There's a mic, so should the need arise, Clark can offer guidance that only Skye can hear through her headphones.

Speaker 5:
[27:50] Hi, Mom. Hi, Clark.

Speaker 1:
[27:52] Okay, so you turn it on.

Speaker 5:
[27:53] It's good to hear your voice.

Speaker 4:
[27:55] Can you hear me, Skye?

Speaker 1:
[27:58] Sandy, the studio technician, helps us get set up and takes a level on Skye's voice by asking her an easy neutral question.

Speaker 5:
[28:06] Tell me, how was the ride in today?

Speaker 6:
[28:09] How was the ride in?

Speaker 1:
[28:10] You don't have to shout into it.

Speaker 5:
[28:11] It was easy, except for when we left the hatchback open on the freeway.

Speaker 1:
[28:18] Laugh it up, Sandy, the studio technician, laugh it up. Tessa is running late, so Skye sits waiting in the studio by herself. Finally.

Speaker 6:
[28:35] Wait, she's here?

Speaker 5:
[28:38] Ah, okay.

Speaker 1:
[29:01] Hey, I'm Jonathan.

Speaker 7:
[29:02] Hi, nice to meet you.

Speaker 1:
[29:03] Glad you made it. Nice to meet you too. Tessa's stylish, and like Skye, looks younger than her years. You could still see a trace of the popular girl. I show her into the studio where Skye's been waiting. The two haven't seen each other since they were children.

Speaker 5:
[29:19] Do you keep in close touch with anyone in high school?

Speaker 7:
[29:22] Not in close touch with anyone.

Speaker 1:
[29:25] As they settle in, the mood is formal, a little stilted. Since the room is only about the size of a small elevator, their knees practically touch.

Speaker 6:
[29:34] You guys can start now.

Speaker 5:
[29:36] Okay, thanks, Clark. Clark says we can start now. Okay. So, I'm just going to go backtrack a little bit.

Speaker 6:
[29:45] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[29:47] So, my memory is that we were all in sort of a tight-knit group.

Speaker 6:
[29:54] Is it too early for me to ask, like, why did she do it?

Speaker 5:
[29:59] It can be a good instinct for both of us. But then had also written, fuck you on the garage door. That then from that point on, we never spoke again. It's something that has always stuck with me because I don't know why it happened. And so, I guess I'd love to know what your memories are.

Speaker 1:
[30:33] Clark's got this look on his face. Love to know what your memories are? From his perspective, his mom's doing what she always does. That is, exactly what he told her not to. She's being overly sensitive to Tessa's feelings. But even after 35 years of waiting to ask the question, Skye just can't help being Skye. Tessa takes a sip of water.

Speaker 7:
[30:57] Sorry, I'm just, my throat is dry.

Speaker 5:
[31:00] Yeah, no problem.

Speaker 1:
[31:02] Skye smiles warmly and gives Tessa a moment to collect herself.

Speaker 5:
[31:07] Take your time.

Speaker 7:
[31:09] Um, so I have a vague recollection. It's really vague. What I, what really stands out is that we were just going teeping. Like we went teeping a lot, you know, not just on that night. And we literally just stumbled upon your home. Interesting.

Speaker 1:
[31:38] Clark furrows his brow. He wants his mother to push harder, be more aggressive.

Speaker 6:
[31:44] Mom, ask why you weren't invited to go toilet papering with them.

Speaker 1:
[31:49] That's a really good question. We watch as Skye waits patiently for Tessa to finish speaking.

Speaker 5:
[31:55] He wanted me to ask you, um, why I didn't come with you that night, teeping.

Speaker 6:
[32:01] Why weren't you invited, not why didn't I come?

Speaker 5:
[32:04] Why wasn't I invited?

Speaker 7:
[32:06] Um, I, I, in my mind, we had drifted apart by then.

Speaker 1:
[32:15] Inside the control room, Clark shakes his head.

Speaker 6:
[32:19] I think there's more to the story.

Speaker 1:
[32:20] You do?

Speaker 5:
[32:21] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[32:22] What makes you think that?

Speaker 6:
[32:24] I don't know.

Speaker 1:
[32:25] He slumps back in his seat and crosses his arms. He seems frustrated.

Speaker 7:
[32:33] I remember your mom calling my mom.

Speaker 5:
[32:36] Mm-hmm.

Speaker 7:
[32:37] And for my mom, it wasn't a big deal either. My mom, first of all, didn't even know what teeping was. I had to explain it to her.

Speaker 5:
[32:44] Oh, okay.

Speaker 7:
[32:45] I did not realize until maybe now that it was more of a big deal for you.

Speaker 5:
[32:54] Yeah. And I feel like you're being very, very honest. And I really, really appreciate that.

Speaker 1:
[33:00] When Tessa and I last spoke, she mentioned how odd this whole undertaking seemed to her. A woman she hadn't heard from in 35 years wanted to talk to her about a random night from their childhood. Oh, and she also wanted to bring along her 11 year old son and his 48 year old sidekick, both of whom would be communicating with Skye through a secret microphone.

Speaker 6:
[33:23] Mommy, can you hear me?

Speaker 1:
[33:24] Let's wait so she can talk. Wait, wait, wait. Inside the control room, I watched Skye perform a delicate balancing act. She's aware that Clark is watching, so she's trying not to be too timid. But she also wants to set a good example for how to behave. And through all that, she can help seeing it from Tessa's perspective, how weird and uncomfortable this must be for her. Skye wants to help Tessa feel safe. And so, she treads lightly.

Speaker 5:
[33:53] I mean, I think being the parent now of a child, I understand how quickly things can get confused. And it really was the words that that's what seemed to communicate to me, I've done something terrible. Like, I must have, I must be responsible for this in some way, you know? And so, I wondered, did I do something?

Speaker 1:
[34:20] You can see that Tessa is weighing her response. She doesn't quite know what to say, but with Skye being so gracious and open, it's like she feels the least she can do is try to meet her halfway. And so tentatively, she offers a thought.

Speaker 7:
[34:41] Um, maybe we're a little different than them?

Speaker 5:
[34:50] In what way?

Speaker 1:
[34:52] Again, test the searches for the right words. All the while, never saying us or we, but always they.

Speaker 7:
[34:59] Um, they were, like, they were a little mischievous. You know, they were, they were a little rebellious and wanting to do something bad.

Speaker 5:
[35:17] And I was-

Speaker 7:
[35:18] And maybe you weren't. Maybe you didn't want to go along with what they were doing.

Speaker 5:
[35:26] Well, you know, what's interesting about that is the whole TPing thing, I remember that being a thing, but I remember, I actually remember not wanting to do that. Would you say that, that, that maybe I was more like a goody two shoes type?

Speaker 7:
[35:48] Compared to them, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[35:58] According to Tessa, if Skye had stayed friends with those girls, it would have meant a summer of drinking alcohol and pulling off semi-illegal pranks after dark. All things Skye wouldn't have wanted. Even back then, she didn't want to upset anyone. To her friends, that made her seem like a goody two-shoes. And to a goody two-shoes who thinks they're better than you, what could be more of a fuck you than a literal fuck you? The words large and clear emblazoned across her family's garage door. I turned to Clark to see what he makes of all this. Is there something that you feel like we're just kind of missing or we're not getting at? Clark stares straight ahead, watching his mom. I can see he's thinking something through. He makes a move towards the mic, but then shies away. He's antsy, rising from his seat, settling back. Eventually, I make a suggestion. Do you just want to go in there? Could I? Yeah, totally. Clark gets up, leaves the control room, and makes his way to the studio to talk to his mom in person. Watching him, I have no idea what he's up to.

Speaker 5:
[37:13] Oh, Clark is here.

Speaker 1:
[37:16] Clark enters the room.

Speaker 5:
[37:18] What was that?

Speaker 1:
[37:20] But it's not his mom he's addressing. It's Tessa. I take a deep breath as Clark begins to speak.

Speaker 6:
[37:28] Did you feel in any way like dragged into it? Like to do, like to toilet paper people's houses?

Speaker 7:
[37:38] I don't know if I would say dragged, but I would say definitely I was a follower.

Speaker 1:
[37:46] I'm not exactly surprised by Clark's question. It's the same one he's been asking since the beginning. Essentially, why did you do this to my mother? But I am surprised by the way he's asking it. Not with anger, but with sympathy. For the first time, Clark's trying to see it all from Tessa's perspective. He's following his mom's example.

Speaker 7:
[38:09] Sometimes you're with friends because those are the ones you have. So you'll stick with your friends even though you see things that you don't like in them. You know, you just don't want to be alone. Okay. Yeah. Thanks. Okay.

Speaker 5:
[38:26] Thanks, Clark.

Speaker 1:
[38:28] Because Tessa didn't want to be alone, she continued to hang out with the girls for several more years, before eventually finding a new group of friends. Tessa turns to Skye.

Speaker 7:
[38:39] Honey, you freaking dodged a bullet. That's what you did, not being with those girls, I have to say.

Speaker 1:
[38:54] Skye tells Tessa that there's still one thing she's been wondering about. Why did Tessa agree to talk with her at all? It would have been easy to say no. Everyone else did.

Speaker 7:
[39:04] Why I said yes?

Speaker 5:
[39:05] Yeah.

Speaker 7:
[39:07] Truthfully, the call was so out of the blue.

Speaker 5:
[39:10] Of course.

Speaker 7:
[39:12] At the beginning, I said, yeah, sure. And then I talked to my daughter, and she was like, no, don't do that.

Speaker 5:
[39:22] How old is your daughter?

Speaker 7:
[39:23] My daughter is almost 13.

Speaker 5:
[39:25] Okay.

Speaker 7:
[39:26] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[39:26] What was she worried about?

Speaker 7:
[39:30] She said, what's in it for you? She was worried that I would come out as a bad person or something.

Speaker 5:
[39:39] How is she feeling right now that you're here?

Speaker 7:
[39:41] She's mad.

Speaker 5:
[39:42] She is?

Speaker 7:
[39:43] Yeah, she's mad. But I told her, not everything we do in life is for us, it's for other people as well. So she'll be fine.

Speaker 1:
[39:53] Whereas Skye set out to show her son that she has the courage to stand up for her own needs, Tessa wants to show her daughter that she has the courage to stand up for someone else's.

Speaker 7:
[40:08] I'm sorry that I didn't. The thought of you thinking for 35 years that you had done something wrong is like, oh, I really don't think that you did anything. I really don't. I'm sorry that you felt like that, you know. I wish that you hadn't.

Speaker 5:
[40:31] I'm so glad I'm hearing it now.

Speaker 7:
[40:34] I'm glad too. So I'm really glad. It's really good to see you and you literally look exactly the same. Maybe your hair is a little shorter, right?

Speaker 5:
[40:44] And blonder.

Speaker 6:
[40:50] Can you turn the mic on?

Speaker 1:
[40:52] Oh, yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 6:
[40:53] Dramatic hug.

Speaker 5:
[40:55] What's that?

Speaker 6:
[40:56] Dramatic hug.

Speaker 5:
[40:57] Oh, you want a dramatic hug? That's clear. I think we have to have the dramatic hug.

Speaker 1:
[41:04] Because the room's so small, when they stand, they're already almost touching. They look at each other for a brief moment. And then, Skye opens her wings.

Speaker 7:
[41:16] Oh, it's good to see you.

Speaker 5:
[41:19] So good to see you.

Speaker 1:
[41:28] After the meeting with Tessa, Clark didn't have much to say. But at night, back in his room, in that space where he feels free to open up, Clark's eager to talk about Tessa.

Speaker 6:
[41:40] Honestly, I didn't know that person, so I thought they might still be the bully, still bullying you. And I didn't want you to feel scared or anything in that situation, so I was kinda anxious. But then I met Tessa and she was like super nice.

Speaker 5:
[42:00] She was super nice.

Speaker 6:
[42:03] And I feel like you weren't timid mommy. You were brave mommy.

Speaker 1:
[42:15] Tonight there's no talk of avenging. Through his mom's example, Clark's learning that one can be kind without being timid. The kindness can carry its own strength.

Speaker 5:
[42:27] If you had, if we had not had that night where you had said, you have to figure this out mom, I really honestly don't think I would have done it. So thank you.

Speaker 6:
[42:38] You're welcome.

Speaker 1:
[42:44] There's a lot more coming for Clark, moments when he'll have to make difficult decisions. Some of them he'll talk about with Skye and some he won't. But for now, they keep talking, neither of them quite ready to go to sleep just yet.

Speaker 5:
[43:01] Remember when you said that there was an International Tomato Day?

Speaker 6:
[43:05] Stop judging me. It was International.

Speaker 1:
[44:20] Hello?

Speaker 6:
[44:21] Hi.

Speaker 4:
[44:22] Hi, how are you?

Speaker 5:
[44:24] You guys can't see me, it looks like.

Speaker 1:
[44:26] Yeah, are we doing this with the cameras off?

Speaker 5:
[44:27] Hold on, there, I think I just clicked the right button.

Speaker 1:
[44:31] Hello? You know, as I was waiting for you to pop up, you know what word entered my mind?

Speaker 5:
[44:38] What word is that?

Speaker 1:
[44:39] Nervous-cited.

Speaker 5:
[44:41] Oh my gosh, Jonathan.

Speaker 1:
[44:43] Nervous-cited.

Speaker 5:
[44:43] I still use that word.

Speaker 1:
[44:45] Do you really?

Speaker 5:
[44:47] I mean, I use it regularly. I mean, I feel like it should be an actual word.

Speaker 1:
[44:51] Yeah, totally. It's the perfect portmanteau. I feel like also it's come up recently for me, as it does occasionally. And I think of you, I think of Clark.

Speaker 5:
[45:02] Yeah, that's great.

Speaker 1:
[45:04] So let me ask you some real meat and potato questions here.

Speaker 5:
[45:08] All right, bring it on.

Speaker 1:
[45:11] So did you ever hear from Tessa or the other girls after the episode came out?

Speaker 5:
[45:16] I never heard from any of the other girls. And then Tessa and I kept in touch for a little while. And I actually, when I knew that we were going to be having this conversation, I reached out to her and I told her that I was going to be talking to you. And what I wanted to know mostly from her was how her daughter felt about it now.

Speaker 1:
[45:43] Oh.

Speaker 5:
[45:44] And actually, she texted me. Should I read you what she wrote?

Speaker 1:
[45:48] Sure.

Speaker 5:
[45:49] Yeah. Okay. So here's what she said. We did go back and listen to the podcast together. She, she's referring to her daughter. She did not remember being mad at me. And she said she was thankful and happy that I took part in that. Seven years makes a huge difference. She also said middle school sucks.

Speaker 1:
[46:09] Oh man. Wow. It really does go full circle.

Speaker 5:
[46:13] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[46:14] And speaking of which, so back then, Clark was 11. So that would mean that he's, what, 18 now?

Speaker 5:
[46:21] He's 19, actually. Yeah. Isn't that insane? It's insane. He's a freshman in college.

Speaker 1:
[46:29] Wow. So what is he studying?

Speaker 5:
[46:32] He's studying political science.

Speaker 1:
[46:34] That seems to make sense. I mean, even from just what I knew of him at the age of 11.

Speaker 5:
[46:39] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[46:40] Like standing up for himself, standing up for the little guy.

Speaker 5:
[46:43] Yeah. Like standing up for the little guy and sort of also like this sense of like, justice must be served.

Speaker 1:
[46:51] You had hoped that Clark would learn from the episode's mission. Like basically you wanted to show how to stand up for yourself, but to do so with kindness. Do you feel like he took those lessons with him through the rest of middle school and high school?

Speaker 5:
[47:09] Okay. Let me be perfectly honest with you, Jonathan.

Speaker 1:
[47:12] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[47:13] He was really grateful, just like I am. I think he felt fondness for Tessa, for showing up.

Speaker 1:
[47:22] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[47:23] But I do have to also tell you, as far as the other three girls who didn't show up, go, he's still really mad at them.

Speaker 1:
[47:33] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[47:34] He feels like they didn't take accountability for what happened, and that's really still frustrating to him. So I sort of at first, when he said to me, I'm still mad at those girls, there was a part of me that felt disappointed, because I don't feel that way.

Speaker 1:
[47:56] Yeah, you didn't feel that way even afterwards.

Speaker 5:
[47:58] No.

Speaker 1:
[47:59] Immediately afterwards.

Speaker 5:
[48:00] Yeah, I really didn't. I mean, I think the warm feelings, the sense of fondness that I developed for Tessa during our conversation, really eclipsed these old painful feelings that I had had. Also in the meantime, I've raised two teenagers too. Maybe, I don't know if Clark will have children, but if he does have children, maybe then his perspective on how he feels about the girls who didn't show up, maybe it will change then. We're always evolving, we're always changing. I can't argue with him about his feelings. His feelings are valid and I want to respect the way that he feels about it and so, I feel great about how things have evolved since then.

Speaker 1:
[48:45] Good. Well, if Clark was so inclined, it would be really cool if he wanted to send a voice message just saying hi.

Speaker 5:
[48:57] Oh my gosh, he sounds so different. Yeah, I'll ask him.

Speaker 8:
[49:06] Hey guys, it's Clark. I think it's really cool that you guys are doing this episode to revisit the podcast we did all those years ago. That's a really cool memory for me that I really cherish. Kind of helping my mom get closure about a story that she used to tell me when I was growing up before we even thought of trying to write in and see if people would be interested in listening to it. I'm off in college now. It's been quite a while, but I'd just like to thank everyone who was involved. It was a really great time, great experience, and I'm glad to have had it.

Speaker 1:
[49:47] To piggyback off of Clark's words spoken in a surprisingly base baritone, I'd like to thank everyone who helped put the episode together. And we'll be back once again with another exciting update in two weeks, but before then, might I direct your attention to our free newsletter? Maybe you've heard about it, maybe you haven't. If you have not, please sign up at patreon.com/heavyweight.