transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] We have had so many guests on this show talk about how powerful the outdoors can be for kids, especially kids with ADHD or different ways of learning and processing the world. And if you are raising a child with ADHD, dyslexia, a language disorder, or really any kind of learning difference, I want to share a podcast that I think you'll really appreciate. It's called Everyone Gets a Juice Box. It's parents just being honest with each other in a really safe, welcoming space about the highs and lows of raising neurodivergent kids. And what I love about it is how real it is. There was one story about a mom who had this big career running a major podcast division, and she realized she hadn't been home to see her daughter before bed for weeks. And at the same time, she was starting to notice these little moments, like her daughter freezing up during a simple preschool performance and just having that gut feeling like something's different here. And then all the doubt that comes with that, like other people saying she seems fine while you're sitting here thinking, but I'm her parent and I know her. This mom eventually stepped back in and reconnected and created little games together just to help her daughter communicate better. It's such a good reminder that connection doesn't have to be complicated. It just has to be intentional. So, if that interests you, go check it out. To listen, search for Everyone Gets a Juice Box in your podcast app. That's Everyone Gets a Juice Box. Welcome to The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast. My name is Ginny Yurich. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside and I've really been looking to this conversation. This is going to be about The Japanese Way of Parenting, which is so intriguing. There's a book coming out. It'll be out by the time you hear this called The Japanese Way of Parenting. What it taught me about raising mostly calm, caring, and capable kids. Author Lisa Katayama is here. Lisa, welcome.

Speaker 2:
[01:32] Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1:
[01:34] I took so many notes on this book and I have to tell you, we just went to Japan.

Speaker 2:
[01:39] Oh, amazing.

Speaker 1:
[01:40] Yeah, about a month ago. Our oldest son is a senior this year. I'm a little bit more of a homebody. I get a little nervous to travel, but for probably five or six years, he's been talking about really wanting to visit Japan. It was like his top thing, and we happened to have a small break in our schedule and found some cheaper flights. And we came. And so I read your book, and I got to see a lot of it in person. And it was just such a cool thing, Lisa. Like, like, wow, just to see these kids out on the subways and like traveling and going to soccer. You know, there's no parents there and just sort of the calm, how clean it was. I mean, everything looks brand new. It just was just a really eye opening, very cool experience. And then I got to read your book and you're talking about raising your kids here in the US. But, you know, really trying to have this foundational, some of these foundational elements that are part of Japanese culture. So could you give us just a little bit of that back story of like where you grew up, but now you're in California and you're just wanting to and your husband is from somewhere else. You've got this mixed race, family background and you're trying to kind of figure out which direction you want to go once you had kids.

Speaker 2:
[02:47] Yeah, sure. And I love that you just went there because that's, you know, a good reference point for our conversation, I think. So I grew up in Tokyo. I was born and raised there. My mom is of Chinese origins, my dad Japanese. So I grew up in kind of a blended culture family to begin with, but was in Tokyo until the end of high school. I didn't go to a Japanese school, but I grew up in a Japanese environment. So I kind of always had a sense of, you know, there's more than one way, but I was certainly immersed in and understood the Japanese way kind of viscerally just by being in that environment. And then I moved to the US for college, and then I have always worked here. I'm, you know, I worked here for over 20 years now, and had my kids here. When I was, I had my first kid in my early 40s, and then I have now two kids, and they're, you know, growing up here in Northern California. My husband is originally West African, but lived in New York when we met and had been living in New York for a while. So, yeah, so our kids are mixed, many, like, they have many cultural backgrounds. But essentially, I mean, you know, they're growing up in America. And, and the thing that I think I realized, so my first kid was born during the COVID pandemic, and she was home with us for a couple of years. Just, you know, it's like a really, I think for many people, challenging but sweet time when you had your kids around more than maybe you expected. And I was working from home and, you know, my husband was working from home and we were all just home. And, you know, I realized this too. I was just talking to him yesterday and I was like, I think our older kid misses having those morning snuggles. Because when she was a baby, we just sat in the bed, the three of us, and we would like eat yogurt, you know? And now everybody's rushing out the door, trying to get to school, you know, she's got her sister. And so it's such a different dynamic. And so yesterday, we all lay in bed, we didn't eat yogurt because it was after we brushed our teeth, but we did have this moment of like snuggles and she was so happy. But yeah, so as during, you know, that 2020, 2021, I think many of us who were parenting at that time did experience that, like closeness, maybe more than we wanted sometimes, but we were all together, right? So really that was just, there wasn't much to that other than our home culture. But then when it gained time to start thinking about daycare, and this was still very much like when everybody was wearing masks and most of the daycare centers were like semi-closed, but we were able to tour a bunch of daycare centers in our area. This is actually in one of the opening chapters of my book, but we live in a part of Northern California that's very diverse. There are a lot of immigrant communities here, a lot of different cultural influences. Though the daycare centers really reflected that. We saw some places that were just totally different tone. Some were really like pro-education, some were very Montessori, like all the kids could do everything by themselves. Some had loud music, some had almost nothing on their walls. But there were just so many different types of spaces, and it really made me reflect on what kind of space do I want my kid to grow up in. And it felt like there are a lot of choices, and none of them are the right one. But I felt myself kind of just viscerally feeling into these spaces. And that's when I realized this one Japanese daycare we visited felt like home for me. And maybe it was because of COVID, but I hadn't been back to Tokyo in a few years. And I was like, oh, this feels so familiar. You know, the kids are, you know, kind of the volume at which they're playing. And you just went to Japan, so you probably experienced this. But the general like noise volume is much lower there. And I experienced that same thing when I walked into this daycare. I was like, oh, it's not like crazy loud. There's, you know, the kids, when they saw us walk in for the tour, they quieted down and the teacher was like, come meet the new baby. And they all came over and they sat down in a ring around us, you know, social distance ring, which they seem to understand, which is interesting. And they all had their masks on the right way, which no doubt, I'm sure the teachers told them, this is, you know, you have to cover your nose and your mouth. And, you know, those things are kind of silly, but it was just a reminder to me of, oh yeah, where I grew up, people were very, you know, they've kind of followed instructions, they kind of built this community type feel where everybody agreed to the same principles and ideas, and that seemed to be happening in this place. So, yeah, so we got on a waitlist. Daycare Center is very popular here. We always have to be on a waitlist, but we were on a waitlist for, I guess, maybe I'm getting the timing a little wrong, but we were on a waitlist for maybe close to a year, and she started going to school there when she was two. So maybe we toured it when she was one. Yeah. So that was the beginning of the origin story of this book, I guess.

Speaker 1:
[08:39] Yeah. I'm trying to determine how are you going to do this? I think the interesting thing about other cultures, and I was exposed to this through a book by Michaelene Duclef called Hunt Together Parent, where she travelled for NPR and she said, people do things differently around the world. In some cultures, they don't yell at children ever. It's considered very immature. So then you start to think, oh goodness, I would love to have the perspective of other cultures to challenge what I'm doing that just is going along with what everyone else is doing. So the book is fantastic. It's humorous. I love the part when you were talking about going to the world, you said the World Expo of Child Care Services, and you're saying you want a beautiful environment. I mean, it is shockingly clean in Japan. We went to the Tokyo Station, which I think is the busiest like railway station in the world. And it was, I was like, is this new? Did they just build it? Like, I mean, it's just shockingly clean. There's no garbages anywhere. So people carry their own garbage with them. They don't really walk and eat or walk and drink. And then even in the bathroom, like people would pull out their own little towel out of their purse and then just put it back in. So there's no paper towel in there. And you're shocked because it's not new, but everything looks like it's brand new. So you're wanting this clean and orderly environment. You talk about how that makes people feel better and there's studies about that. But then you say, when you tour this world expo of child care services, there's a place that serves homemade lentil soup for lunch. There's a place that plays Italian opera, Italian opera, however people say that, to cue nap time. There's a place with a half a dozen baby photos taped to the window to show newcomers how long their wait list is already. Everyone seems to have their own unique take on how to nurture kids. So this is a really good set up for this book to learn of some different ways that other cultures raise kids. So I would love to kick it off with the fact that it comes with a manual. So I didn't know this. You know, I was able to be exposed to the cleanliness, the orderliness, the calmness. And you talk about how this is known throughout the world. Japanese culture is one of the best in the world for developing responsibility and respect. And the word is amatenashi, if I said that right, which is radically, radically caring for others. And so one of the ways that this is fostered, and probably the main way is through the mother, which you do say is a lot of pressure and in part, maybe a reason why some kids, some people are not having kids as much because it's kind of hard to be a mom. And there's a lot of expectations. But it actually comes with an actual manual that goes till age 20.

Speaker 2:
[11:20] Yes. So when you tell the government that you're pregnant. And so in my case, I was telling, you know, the consulate over here, right? And where I live and they send you this booklet. I actually, I have one on my living room table. But it's, it's, you know, it's called like the mother child booklet. And there is an English version too. There's Japanese and English, especially for those of us who live in the US, they give you a choice. And so they sent me the English version. And it's mostly it's a manual for birthing moms to track their pregnancy. So the first half is like all about pregnancy. And, you know, here are some of the signs of like, you know, if something is going wrong, or even if nothing is going wrong, here's how you can prepare for your child. It's very prescriptive. It tells you like, you know, what might be happening in your body, but also like, here's a good time to start thinking about what you're going to name your child. Or, you know, here's a good time to start enrolling the dad in getting ready for a child and playing his part. And the expectations are clearly different for moms and dads. I mean, Japan is still very patriarchal, as are many, let's, you know, if we're honest, a lot of cultures still are, even subcultures in the US., right? So there's a, you know, kind of here's what you can say to the dad so that he's ready. And then there's like the, and then the baby is born and there's, you know, kind of a month by month. And then as they get older, I mean, it does go till they're kind of much older, but it does the amount of content wings over time. I doubt there are moms who use this booklet until their kid is 20, and some guiding for us, but it does kind of, you know, it prepares you for like, here's what's ahead, right? You're gonna be, you know, first you're gonna have a baby and this is what you're gonna be thinking about, what to feed it, what to teach, you know, in terms of, and also very early on, I think there are indicators of how these babies and kids should be behaving in society, to the point of having, you know, mostly calm, caring, capable kids in order to have that. And in order to have that, like, cleanliness that you saw at Tokyo Station, it takes a village, truly, to make that kind of thing happen. It's not just that there's a billion cleaning crew at Tokyo Station, right?

Speaker 1:
[13:44] Right.

Speaker 2:
[13:44] To your point, people are taking their trash home, they're, you know, if they spill something, they'll wipe it up. I've been to children's birthday parties in Tokyo where, you know, the kids spilled some jello. And I feel here people would just be spilling things all over the place and maybe not even noticing. But as soon as this kid spilled the jello, like three dads showed up from around the room and they came, you know, and cleaned it up right away. And so this kind of thing, it really does take a village and it takes a manual. Yeah, it takes a manual and reinforcement of those, right? Those rules and regulations of the manual throughout life. You know, you can read it in manual, but then, and then you go to school and then when you spill something, they will be like, okay, let's clean it up. And then after a while, you don't have to say it anymore because everybody knows that that's the standard. And I think that that is a large part of how Japanese society, as we see it today, when we visit, was built. It starts with the kids.

Speaker 1:
[14:43] That's right. Yes. And it starts with the moms helping the kids. It starts with the moms. There is a lot of pressure there. We had an experience, it was just a wonderful trip, where my husband had a napkin in his back pocket and it had fallen out. In America, if somebody drops their keys or their wallet, you would run after them. And he said, I felt this tap on my shoulder and I turned around and this man was like, you dropped this because you're expected to notice and take care of your own stuff. So the manual was really interesting to me, Lisa, because I remember when we first had kids feeling very lost. Is this normal? What am I supposed to be doing? How is the schedule supposed to go? So you can see the pros and cons of both. You can see that in some ways, I want to read what you wrote about it. You say, like most things Japanese, it is irritatingly pedantic and incredibly useful. Building a harmonious cycle doesn't magically happen, magically just happen. So you say, there is this comfort in knowing that you're in the boundaries of normal. You use the correct amount of soap to pump. You're using the same amount of wipes that most people use, these types of things. And then on the other hand, though, because there is this manual, you might be getting the side eye from someone else who thinks you're not following the manual or, you know. So that can be happening too. I love the part where you wrote that in America, I don't know where I have it in my notes, but you said in America, my kids are like by far the best behaved, but in Japan, they're the worst. Yeah, so there's high expectations.

Speaker 2:
[16:24] For sure.

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
[20:07] I don't know if my kids are the best behaved in America anymore. I don't know. As they grow, they start to become more unruly and unpredictable. I'm sure that's true of every kid. But it's true that in here, they are pretty good. I took them with me to a doctor's appointment the other day, and they sat in two chairs in a corner, and they read a book together, and everybody was like, oh, your kids are so good, they're so well-behaved. In general, when they go out, they do present as nice, well-behaved kids. But when we were in Japan, it was total chaos. It's largely because the standards of what is acceptable are pretty different. Here, it's not uncommon to see kids wandering around a restaurant, like waving to other people. Like my kids do that too. They'll go around and be like, hi. And we're like, oh, hello. It's so cute. But in Japan, you rarely see kids leaving the table. The parents will really enforce them sitting with the family and being quiet. And maybe they're coloring or watching something, but they're not making noise and they're not interrupting other people's time. They also never put their feet on the chair. So there's a really different concept of what's indoors and what's outdoors. And you never wear your outdoor shoes indoors in Japan. Here, one of the biggest things that was surprising to a lot of Japanese parents is when you put your kids in American public school, they just go with shoes on onto the carpet where everybody sits down. Which here, I mean, I sit on the pavement here, and no problem. I don't think it's an issue. But in Japan, people don't. You would take off your shoes or you would put on your indoor shoes. Even in, there's this Starbucks in Tokyo, and there's a little kids area where you can go and read a book. But before you enter the kids area, there's a little shelf and you put your shoes on that shelf. So the kids area, where you're sitting on these steps, if you're sitting on the steps, and that means your feet shouldn't be on it, right? And so that kind of standard is different. So then when we're in Japan, my kids would just like put their legs up on the chair. Everybody looks at them really horrified, right? What are they doing? That's their outdoor shoes, and it's on the chair. And that means the next person who sits there is going to get on their butt, all those germs, right? So that kind of hyper awareness about what's clean and what's not. And I'm not really making a judgment about this.

Speaker 1:
[22:50] You're saying it's just the way it is.

Speaker 2:
[22:52] It's just the way it is.

Speaker 1:
[22:53] And if you hadn't experienced it, and in a lot of ways, that is very much a way, I think, to care for others, right? It's, you know, you're looking out for the people who are coming after you. You're radically caring for others. There's extra care and consideration, and there's like no dust bunnies. And when we stayed in, we were in some different Airbnbs and they would have slippers there. So you would walk, you know, when you would stay at the AirBnb, there would be slippers there. You would take your shoes off and you could wear the slippers. Even in a hotel, same thing. They had slippers. And so what was interesting to me, Lisa, and we'll talk about some more of the things that are in your book, is it's so interesting when you grow up one way. And these are kind of the very common things going in and out of a home. That's a super con or in and out of a space. You do that a lot, right? The bathrooms are different. That this level of cleanliness, the level of noise, you're in a subway train with so many other people. We, in fact, we went to one of the Disney's. There's a Disney in Tokyo. There's two Disney's in Tokyo. And we were at the fireworks at night. And we've been to the one in Florida and everyone's like cheering and nobody did that. It's like, oh, you know, there's, I don't know, 17,000 people watching this firework show that goes on the castle. And it's just quiet. And then at the end, it was like, It's so funny.

Speaker 2:
[24:22] It's so true.

Speaker 1:
[24:24] So it's, and that's just sort of your normal daily life, your volume. So the ways I think it can be so radically different. It's not just like one-off things. It's your everyday. So I love that you wrote about in the book that this is obviously a lot of work to get there. It is a beautiful thing though, when you experience it. But then you talk about the harder sides of it too, that a lot of it falls on the mothers. There's even a word, the art of shuffling around all these little tasks commonly used to describe Japanese moms and that they're sanitizing their kids chairs every day. They vacuum all the floors at least every other day using fancy vacuum cleaners that give them a dust score. And there's a lot of pressure there, and yet there's a lot of good that comes out of it too. So you show both sides. And I laughed when you talked about your friend's bag, Satomi, I think, and you said, it literally takes my breath away how organized it was.

Speaker 2:
[25:25] Her bag is amazing. I mean, I think some of the pressures have to change because it's literally impossible to be preserving that level of commitment to hyper cleanliness and fully present mothering and to also have your own life and take care of yourself. And many of us have to work. And so I certainly think we have to choose how much of that we can bring into our lives. Like the shadow side of Japanese parenting, where there's a lot of beautiful things about it, but the shadow side, there are some shadow sides. And I think one is that it's not super sustainable for moms, frankly, especially because, well, like A, I think we should be able to pick what our lives should be. And the happier we are, the happier our kids are, right? So, of course, like we, you know, there's a lot of value in spending time with our kids, making sure they are, you know, provided for and like anticipating need, like that's a big part of Japanese parenting too. But I think there's also some value in being like, hey, you know what, it's time for mom take a break right now. So, you know, or I'm not going to vacuum the floors today. I mean, we, you know, vacuum like maybe once a week. We try our best, you know, we have a little hand vacuum we run around with, I certainly don't follow all the things that are written in the book. It's just like, you know, those are kind of like the best in class examples of Japanese mom. And then, yeah, I mean, I think, and then the other thing is the kind of output of this is that a lot of Japanese moms quit working after they have kids because of those standards. They kind of feel this push and pull between like, I want to keep working, but I, you know, once I have kids, there's this expectation that I would radically care for them, or like omoten ashi is mostly like kind of that's about like outward things. But I think it's also this kind of this caring concepts is pretty universal. And then so there's a lot of pressure to be like, oh, I should be there for my kids. Now, things are changing now with the younger generations, a lot more parents are sharing tasks more equitably between like, you know, both parents are putting kids in daycare, like the, you know, different municipalities in Japan have been ramping up their daycares, which is great. But I think there's that those are some of the shadow side. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[27:57] Yeah, it was really interesting to read about it. It does also show there's probably a higher capacity in children than we realize, you know, that they can do these things, they can clean up after themselves and they can be taught to do those things. But then you do say that the happiness level of the Japanese, the country, it's not even in the top 50. So it's a fantastically written book because you cover both sides of it and you know, you talk about how it is very nice to be in a place that's this clean and that people are this, I mean, we also went to, there's a Universal Studios there and it's in Kyoto or it's not, it's in Osaka.

Speaker 2:
[28:40] Yeah, you're right. It's in Osaka, I think so.

Speaker 1:
[28:43] So we got to ride the Shinkansen, that's the fast train, that is never late. I mean, I think my husband said it was like, there's like a 30 second, it goes so fast and it's just always on time. It was so clean and you buy these like bento box things that you take on the train. So we went to Universal and everyone was so cheery. I never in my life, Lisa, been in a place where everyone is smiling and waving. And if they're at a stand that sells pretzels, let's say, even when no one's in line, they're just waving at you and they're smiling and they're just peppy. So this is beautiful. I mean, it's beautiful to be around that energy and that cleanliness, but then you also talk about it's not easy. And you can see how it would really be a hard thing to sustain. I love that you use that word sustainable. So that part was very interesting to read about because you said, even when they drop off their kids at school or at daycare, you're like these moms are all in perfect condition. No one has a mom bun. They're like, how did they bike here and they have no sweat on them. So that part of it was really interesting to read about and learn about. I also would love to talk about this part about independence. This is something that we noticed for sure, is because there is this incredible transportation system, there is a lot of freedom for kids to go do things. So we saw some of that. We really didn't see a lot of kids overall, but we did see some kids that were just traveling, you know, two little girls, they're clearly in their soccer uniforms. So can you talk about independence? These are single-digit age kids that everyone says this is fine, and that would do a lot for your confidence. And once they get to that age, maybe it does start to lessen the pressure on the parent because they're able to get themselves to their own activities.

Speaker 2:
[30:37] Definitely. This is a huge part, I think, of Japanese society that I wish we could adopt here, but I think it's difficult for many reasons. But there's this Netflix show that became quite popular. It's called Old Enough, and it features these little Japanese kids, and some of them are like, I don't know, maybe three years old. And they get sent on errands to buy groceries for their parents, and they are given like a little mental list, and then they walk, you know, or sometimes they take the train. There was one I saw where these siblings take, these little siblings, like they take a ferry, and they go to, you know, purchase these items and bring it back to the parents. It's really funny and cute because they're so little, but they're trying so hard to look responsible and autonomous, and they're, you know, secret cameramen, following them around, obviously, but even if they weren't, you can tell that they're quite safe doing this. And so it's partly that the kids are responsible, and they've been instilled with the sense of like, I can do this. But it's also that everybody around them is helping to shepherd that process along, right? So when they're walking on the streets, like, you know, the cars are driving in a reasonable way, even though that maybe the sidewalks are small, they're not zooming past. And so it feels like, you know, they're safe and they're kind of watching out. The people who are walking alongside them are just kind of letting them walk to the store. When they get to the store, the storekeeper, you know, is not like, oh my God, you're cute. Here's a sticker. They're just like, oh, what are you here to buy? And, you know, welcome to the store. And this is how much it's going to cost you. And thank you for coming. And so they treat them like a regular customer. And that gives the kid a sense of like, oh, yes, I am an independent part of society. And you can tell they feel so proud. And so I think that's great. You know, kids, there is a lot of evidence that, you know, giving kids a little sense of independence is really good for them and for building confidence. I think, yeah, so that's nice. And then I wanted to say something about the moms looking perfect. I do think that's mostly in Tokyo. I, that's where I grew up in, like, big, big city, like, kind of like if you were in New York City, I guess, here in the US. But I think it is different in, you know, if you go outside of Tokyo, I think you might see some mom buns. So, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[33:10] Interesting.

Speaker 2:
[33:11] Yeah. So I think about that, too. I'm like, if I ever, you know, move to Japan with my kids or something like in Tokyo, I'd have to kind of play up to that standard. But you could always move to the suburb and have a mom bun. And it would be okay.

Speaker 1:
[33:24] That's so interesting to learn about all of the different cultures and subcultures. I think this part about independence is a really big deal. You wrote some very thought provoking things on it. You said, children who are given some unsupervised time are more likely to develop a sense of autonomy and personal responsibility. They learn to solve problems on their own, which helps them develop important tools for adulthood, like executive functioning, socio-emotional learning, confidence, and resilience. America's struggle with over-parenting has been well documented and critiqued from all over the world. It is so ironic that in a country that's so committed to freedom, children have so little of it, that in a society so committed to personal responsibility and self-reliance, children can do so little for themselves. That was a quote in your book from Stephanie Murray, but then you said, and this is true, in America, many kids are basically shackled to their parents until they turn 18, at which point they're suddenly on their own without any real-world experience. You're seeing this obviously in this transportation where the kids are able to go out and about, they can get different places, but also even just at the park or even at swim lessons. The book is called The Japanese Way of Parenting, and you're talking about, okay, you're at swim lessons in America and one of the dads, so this is in the United States, one of the dads is like repeating the instructors. Can you tell us about that?

Speaker 2:
[34:51] That was funny. It was at the YMCA. My kid briefly took swim lessons there in this group of three or four kids. They're in the pool with an instructor, and the parents are going to sit on the periphery and watch, because at this time, I think she was maybe three, so parents are kind of observing, and so I'm just sitting on a bench next to this guy whose kid is in the same class as my kid, and these poor instructors, they're probably, I don't know, like college students, you know?

Speaker 1:
[35:23] Have a 19.

Speaker 2:
[35:24] Yeah, exactly. And they're like, all right, so they take one kid at a time, and they're like, all right, time to kick. And this dad, he's like, all right, buddy, time to kick. And he repeats everything that the teacher is saying, as if the kid can't hear in it or understand it. I don't know. And then he's kind of like cheering him on, like, you got this, you got this. And so the whole entire time, he's like, I don't know, I perceived it as a little bit of micromanagement of this kid. And I was like, wow, this is just so different from, like, how I'm sitting here thinking, like, great, I have 30 minutes where I don't have to say anything to my kid. And, you know, this guy's got it. I'm just here to kind of lightly supervise, you know, and the same kind of thing you see in parks, right? So in Japanese parks, it sounds like your kids are older, so maybe you didn't go to like a playground. But I took my kids to a lot of playgrounds and in the playground, the parents can spit in the periphery. They don't get on the playground equipment in Japan, right? So they're, they're just like, they, it's not even like they're looking at their, they're just kind of standing there, like observing their kid from a distance. And if they're with a friend, they're chatting with a friend or whatever, a lot of times it's just like time to chill, right? And your kid's playing on the equipment and the kids are not, they're fairly quiet. They're just kind of like going up and down, you know, the slides and things like that. And then, yeah, it's just like a nice, lovely time. And then in American parks, it's, I'm not saying either one is bad actually, but you see a lot of parents on the equipment with the kids. And I think it's also because some of the American playground equipment is kind of scary. Like there's a lot of dropped places where kids can fall. And so they're not all designed for like safety first, maybe. I don't know. So I've also gotten on the equipment with my kids before because I was worried that they would fall off of like this, you know, they have that pole and then you like slide down the pole. You're a tiny kid, like you could just fall, right? And so then I would find myself like either climbing on top with them or standing at the bottom, making sure they don't fall. So you kind of end up in not just supervising from a distance, but really kind of participating in their play. And so, you know, this is just a big difference. And then sometimes, you know, the parents are chasing the kids. So they're actively part of the play. I do think that's also lovely, you know? I mean, we should be playing with our kids more, right? It's not just like, okay, now we're at a playground and I'm time off for me. So there's a balance there. And actually, I was just thinking about when you mentioned that at Disneyland, like the nobody was cheering, like, oh, this is nice, but it's also kind of sad because like, what if they wanted to cheer?

Speaker 1:
[38:09] I cheered, I cheered, and then I was like, oh, oh, wait.

Speaker 2:
[38:14] You're like, wait, why? But what if like, you know, there's like, there's like a thousand people and some of them feel like that emotion they want to cheer, like, I feel like it should be okay. So there is a, I don't know, it's a tricky balance, I think, because it is, it is.

Speaker 1:
[38:28] And you do a fantastic job in the book highlighting that. It was a very interesting read because I think you could have pretty easily gone the route of a look at all these wonderful things that are a part of Japanese culture. Here's how you could get them. But then you also show like, I like that you use the phrase shadow side, like, look, this country is not hitting the top 50 happiest country list, and these are some of the pressures that are maybe unseen that in particular mothers are having to deal with. Then there's the parts of it that there's very low crime, and you do feel very safe there, and there is the option for kids to go off and to build this sense of independence. You read it and it gives you just different ideas of maybe I could do this a little bit differently, or maybe I could let go a little bit more, or maybe at swim lessons I'll just sit quietly while they're doing the swim lessons. 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With over 30,000 therapists and millions of people served, it's a resource that's helping a lot of people feel less alone. When life feels overwhelming, therapy can help. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/1000hours. That's betterhelp.com/1000hours. Another one that you talked about that I thought was a really big deal is sleep. What you say, and this was so interesting, Lisa, because when we were looking for Airbnb, so we've mostly just traveled in the US and we're really close to Canada, so we've been there, but it's just like an hour. We're looking for these Airbnbs and it would say like sleeps, we're a family of seven, so it would say sleeps 14 or sleeps nine, two bedrooms, and you'd be like, oh, what's that all about? It's these rooms that basically the whole floor is a bunch of beds. The older teen boys were like, we're not sleeping with anybody else, like find a different place. But this is a different thing, and I think it's really special. I was talking to a friend recently who was saying that their 10-year-old still sleeps in their room and is scared at night, and she feels a lot better just being in a sleeping bag on the floor or something like that. We've had kids that have stayed in our room until they were old, but you feel like you can't talk about it. Can you talk about, I'm trying to find it in my notes. Some people will roll the futons out on the floor. You use this thing, you sleep like a river. Can you talk about that?

Speaker 2:
[43:14] Well, yeah. The character for river is like three lines, so like this, this, I mean, sorry, this is audio. There's three lines. There's a longer line on the left, there's a shorter line in the middle, and there's like a very long line on the right. What I mean by river is the longer lines represent the parents and then the kid is in the middle. Co-sleeping, I think, is what we're really talking about. It's very common in Japanese families. This is partly because there isn't a lot of space in a lot of homes. Generally, the homes are smaller. Kids might not have their own room, or even families might not have a separate bedroom. Sometimes the rolling out the futons is because maybe their living room turns into a bedroom at night. Traditionally, Japanese homes have these big closets where you would put away the beds in the morning. Or if you ever stay in a ryokan, like the traditional Japanese inn, that's what they would do. They would roll out the beds at night, and then they would put it away in the morning. That just lends itself to this more communal living environment, even inside of a home. I think in American homes, very typically you have the living room, the dining room, the kitchen, and then the bedroom. Then the kids have a bedroom, and then the adults have a bedroom. Maybe if you have lots of kids, they have different bedrooms. Everybody has a little bit more privacy, but also I think kids are encouraged to sleep on their own from when they're very little. Part of the safety when they're infants, but then they stay in that room. There's a sense of parents having a sanctuary of the sanctity of the parents' bed, I think is a very maybe a Western concept. I don't know. But in Japan, you don't see that as much. A lot of moms sleep with the kids for a long time, and sometimes the whole family sleeps in the same room. That's represented in hotels and Airbnb. So you can get a hotel room with one double bed and two twin beds in the same room. I don't think I've ever seen that here. Here, it's either like you get a king or two queens. But in Japan, it's either the family style rooms where, you're supposed to have multiple people. And sometimes it's like the last summer, I stayed in a hotel room that had three single beds. And there was like me, my daughter, and my aunt, like we all stayed in one room and the room was designed for that. So yeah, and I think when my first kid was small, we tried to, you know, quote unquote, sleep train her the American way. She had her own room. She slept in a crib. You know, she stayed in the crib. If she cried, we'd pick her up a little bit and put her back in the crib or just talk to her from the door. And I think that worked well for her for a while until her sister was born. And then, I don't know, everything went out the window. Now, sometimes, you know, like the older kid has nightmares or doesn't want to fall asleep when her sister falls asleep. And then she hangs out in my room and falls asleep in my bed. And I'm okay with that because, and I read about this in the book, but when I went to Japan and first experienced this, this idea of everybody sleeping in the same room, and we were staying up with my brother, and he had given us this one room that was kind of like our home for the duration that we were there. And we all slept in there, and we rolled up our beds at night in the morning. And but it was kind of sweet, like to just sleep with my, you know, and I think we've all experienced that. It's like sweet to see your kids sleeping, and I don't want that every single day for the rest of my life. But I do think there is some value to that closeness. And yeah, I think there are a lot of different theories on sleep. And again, I don't think any one of them is right. But I think, yeah, co-sleeping is, I'm starting to feel like it's fine if you like it. Like whatever makes you sleep better, everybody's sleep better is the best thing. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[47:38] Well, when you read the book and you think, oh, this thing I thought that was totally abnormal, possibly wrong. In Tokyo, I think it's the largest city in the world. Population-wise.

Speaker 2:
[47:51] Yeah, I think.

Speaker 1:
[47:52] I mean, if it's not, it's very close. So then you're like, oh, well, people, there's a lot of people that are doing it differently. It'll just happen on Airbnb and look and see what the different rooms look like. You say, in America, I feel like I'm supposed to sleep next to my hubby and not my kids. In Japan, on average, kids sleep with their parents until age 10. So it's an interesting thing to read about. It just starts to open your mind, right? That maybe all these things I'm doing are not necessarily because they're the best or right. It's not so black and white in terms of right and wrong. There's other ways that people do things. All right, can you talk about, now, this is something we missed and I wondered if we could have done it. We just didn't know about it or if we wouldn't have been able to do it. Talking about food and exercise. First of all, you talk about food. There's food education, going along with the whole manual idea. There's more love. I don't know if that's the right word, but more love, effort. We're going to really do a good job with this cooking as opposed to something that's frozen, that we're going to microwave. There's that. Then also, there's radio calisthenics.

Speaker 2:
[49:00] Oh, yeah. Radio calisthenics.

Speaker 1:
[49:05] We missed this. I wondered if we could have listened to it though, if we would have known about it.

Speaker 2:
[49:10] Yeah. Actually, I think it was originally invented in America, and then it got exported to Japan and it just stayed there. Now, even most schools do it in the morning, some companies do it in the morning. It's just this. There's a song, which plays on national broadcast television every morning, and you can dance along to it. Yeah. So this is a thing, and I think there's some value. I mean, I wish everyone did this, honestly, to like starting the day, everybody doing some movement together. That's nice, and it's healthy because we'll go, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[49:50] So you say in Japan, the school kids, the workers, blue collar, white collar, the corporate people, they're doing a similar exercises each morning because of this radio calisthenics. And it's like jumps and twirls and swirls in a bouncy tune. And you say by doing the same exercise with all your peers every morning, you bond, you set some shared health goals and you boost morale. I thought, oh my goodness, what if we did that in the United States? You know, what, what is it just kind of run throughout the morning or does it come on at a certain time?

Speaker 2:
[50:22] I think it comes on TV at a certain time. And I think maybe some, it's probably less and less common now, but some actually like schools and companies would do it in the morning. Like, I mean, my kid's school, the Japanese immersion daycare here, like they do it every morning. They have playtime and then they run around the courtyard. And then before they go inside to do their daily set, whatever activities, they do radio calisthenics and the teacher plays the song on a speaker and they do it every morning. Yeah, so I think there's a sense of it's like a resetting. Here, I feel like exercise is largely an individual endeavor. Like as a working mom, I have to figure out when I'm going to exercise. Like right now, I'm wearing my exercise shorts. And my plan is like after I talk to you Ginny, I'm going to try to squeeze in some stretches before I get to my other things that I need to do today. But it's always like a squeezing in. You have to squeeze it in and you're going to have to figure it out. When are you going to do it? Where are you going to do it? What are you going to do? But yeah, radio calisthenics is just like, it's a thing. You do it at the same time every day with a bunch of people. And it reminds me of like in sometimes you hear, you see like, you know, like older Asian communities like doing Tai Chi in the park, like that kind of thing. And it's yeah, it's lovely. So I think it's a similar kind of ritual. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[51:53] Yeah. And there's more intention with the food as well. So that would help with the health. Japan has more Michelin stars. I didn't know this actually until I read your book. Japan has more Michelin stars than any other country and chefs from every corner of the earth come here to train and learn the secrets of the cuisine. And Anthony Bourdain, I think there was a question of like, if you had to get stuck anywhere, you know, for the rest of your life and eat that food and he had picked Japan. So it's interesting things to learn about there. And I think when you read a book like that, you start to consider, are there small things that I could do to, you know, help my kids to be a little cleaner? I remember you had told a story in the book, it's called The Japanese Way of Parenting, where the teacher at the preschool was like, I need you to send something different for lunch, you know, this was a little too messy.

Speaker 2:
[52:40] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[52:41] You know, there's just these thoughts of like, can we level up a little bit? You know?

Speaker 2:
[52:46] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[52:47] And it makes you think about that. All right, I want to hit one last topic before we run out of time, which is nature. So this is forest bathing that people talk about. And we actually came just prior to the cherry blossoms because it was so much more expensive. I think it was four times more expensive to go during cherry blossoms, like the actual. So we were kind of like right before they were about to bud. I think we saw a little bit. But there's a really big focus on the shifting of the seasons, an attachment to nature. And so you had written this, we celebrate the changing of the seasons with the same reverence and enthusiasm as any major holiday. Now, this is surprising because Tokyo, you know, this is a big city. When we took the train out, I was like this out to Kyoto. I was like, this just keeps going and going and going. And you're going so fast on that Shinkansen train or whatever, the bullet train. And I was like, oh my goodness, it just keeps going and going and going and going. But can you talk about this? I mean, you could tell they were setting up for the cherry blossom thing, and it was a big to do.

Speaker 2:
[53:57] Yeah, it is true. And I think probably it helps that most of the country does have four seasons. So here in California, we sort of have four seasons, but not really, right? It's always kind of sunny and kind of cool at night and it doesn't change. But in Japan, you have very distinct seasons, much like, you know, the East Coast or the country. And then you also have these festivals and holidays that are attached to the changing of the seasons. And you know, if you go back in history, there are these like famous poets in Japan who used to write about nature and like it's just very much like been part of the national narrative and remains so like, so when you go to a Japanese kindergarten or whatever, like the kids are learning songs that are all about the different seasons, the different, you know, fruits and vegetables and animals that come out at different seasons and you sing those seasonally. So like, my kid just finished singing all the like, cherry blossom songs and the songs about, right? So she knows the whole like, cherry blossom song by heart. And then, you know, in the fall, there's a song about the different sounds of, you know, crickets. And then there's this song about fall foliage. And so it's very sweet. And then, you know, if you were living in Japan, that's paired with these, right, national festivities, like the cherry blossom season, where everybody goes out and puts a picnic mat under a cherry blossom tree. And then, yeah, so, and then...

Speaker 1:
[55:36] Oh, that is so interesting that you said that, because there was this one... We were near a zoo, and then we walked down this one, like almost corridor that was lined with trees, and there were signs they were setting up, because they were almost setting it up so the flow of traffic would work and that sort of thing, and there were all these signs on the floor, in that, just in that one corridor on the ground, these signs on the floor that said, no picnics here.

Speaker 2:
[56:04] Yeah, yeah, because it's a thing.

Speaker 1:
[56:07] Because it was a walk-through area, but if that is the thing that you go have a picnic, that's so... We were kind of like, huh, why would anybody choose to have a picnic right there? That's interesting. Okay, that makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 2:
[56:18] Yeah, and it's seasonal. Like, they probably... I don't know if that sign is there all the time.

Speaker 1:
[56:22] Oh, it was like they had been... they were putting you down. Wow. Okay. That clears that up. Yeah, so you talk about just a lot of connection, being in tune with nature, essential to health and well-being, personal, both personal and communal. And then obviously the bathrooms. So this is the... it was so interesting to me, Lisa, about reading your book and then having just, you know, we had just visited, is these are just your normal everyday things, right? Like the way you eat, the way you sleep, the way you come into a home and take off your shoes. And the bathrooms, they're just completely different. The toilets are all these high tech, even in the train station or even, I mean, at places like where you would never even think they're all at the airport. I mean, first of all, the toilet seats are almost always warm. And there's all these buttons that you can press on the side. You can make nature sound, so like no one can hear you going to the bathroom. And then the toilet is in a different room than the shower. And the shower and the tub are often in the same room, so the whole room gets wet. You almost like box yourself in. So that, and then the 7-elevens had all these egg salad sandwiches that were actually like amazing. They had no crests. Our kids were constantly going down to the 7-elevens.

Speaker 2:
[57:37] That's so funny.

Speaker 1:
[57:38] A ton of kinds of sandwiches actually. So just, I mean, but 7-eleven is a common thing, but it was so different in Japan. And we'll never forget it, you know? It's just interesting when you're everyday things and you just go somewhere, like basically on the other side of the world, it was like a 12-hour time difference. If it was 1 PM here is 1 AM. They use military time. So actually, they don't even say 1 PM or 1 AM. But and you're like, all of these kind of day-to-day things are different. And your book gives insight, you know, for those who might like myself, you know, I mean, my 40s, I never experienced it, never even totally considered. But it's like, you're like, I can take some of these things and incorporate them. I was like Googling, how much does one of these toilets cost?

Speaker 2:
[58:25] Yeah, the toilets are great. And I remember like they have the family room, family toilets, and they have a little seat where you can put your toddler in while you're peeing. So they're just not like standing on the floor. I was like, oh, that's so thoughtful, you know? Yeah, things like that. Or in the airport bathrooms, they have a little stand where you can, it's not the floor, you can like step up to the stand to change your clothes. So like, I don't know, you don't want to wear airplane clothes all day if you're going straight to work or something, you can like change in the bathroom on this changing stand. So I feel like they're, yeah, that's kind of this little extra level of care that's nice, that's reflected in the toilets. And it's definitely the food and the convenience stores too.

Speaker 1:
[59:12] What a place. You wrote this. There's 14 million people that live in the city of Tokyo. Despite the density of the city, there is almost no chaos, no trash on the street. There are no trash cans. People are expected to take their own trash home. There's not a dust bunny in sight. No matter what, this is all true. I think if you, if I would have read it and not gone, I would have been like, she's fibbing, she's stretching, you know? And I saw it. And I just kept thinking, I wonder if they just laid this sidewalk down for the first time. And they had it. You know, I've been there for so long. Not a dust bunny in sight. No matter what restaurant or shop you walk into, there are no loud noises, no potholes. And Tokyo with 14 million people is one of the safest cities in the world. Because if you radically care for others, you won't steal or drive too fast or vandalize other people's things. Most people leave their bikes and strollers and locked on the sidewalk all day all the time, sometimes with their handbags still in it and nothing gets stolen. If you lose your wallet, it will most likely get returned the next day cash intact. I loved reading it. I love reading it. I love learning about it. It's a wonderful book.

Speaker 2:
[60:20] My friend just visited from Japan and she told me her dad, who's like an elderly man, and he lost a 5,000-yen bill, which is like $30. And he dropped like a physical bill. And the next day he went to the police station and somebody had turned it in.

Speaker 1:
[60:38] What a story. Who would do that in the United States?

Speaker 2:
[60:42] Like if you find a $20 bill, I'd probably be like, who's is this? Nobody? Okay, but yay, $20 for me.

Speaker 1:
[60:49] Yeah, I'm not going to take it to the police station and then not think, oh, maybe I'll go there and I'll find my $20. If you're the one who lost it, it's gone forever.

Speaker 2:
[60:57] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[60:58] Wow. I loved reading it. Huge congrats to you. It's a fantastic book. The Japanese Way of Parenting and what it taught me about raising mostly calm, caring, capable kids. I love the part where you talked about because your kids are bilingual, right? So you're like sometimes when they act out, they're going to speak English, but when they're going to be in a calm, they're going to speak Japanese. It's deeply ingrained in them. It's so interesting. So huge congrats. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside?

Speaker 2:
[61:27] That was outside. Oh my gosh. I remember going on my first outdoor camping trip in Japan when I was a kid, and they had made us walk on this path and they said there was like a ghost that was going to pull their hand out of the ground and grab our feet, and we had to try to walk past it really bravely, and it was so scary. But I remember it helped me build confidence.

Speaker 1:
[61:55] What area would you go camping in Japan?

Speaker 2:
[61:59] Oh my gosh. There's so many beautiful places near the ocean, or even just, you go an hour outside of Tokyo. Like there's a lot of, yeah, a lot of more people are camping now in Japan too. I mean, here in Northern California, we do it all the time, but also skiing is a huge thing. So if you want to spend time outdoors in Japan, the ski resorts are amazing. It's really like family-friendly and yeah, I don't know if you're a skiing person, really great way to spend time outdoors.

Speaker 1:
[62:27] Yeah, and they got the theme parks. What was interesting about the theme parks was that some of the rides, and I think we might have just caught spring break. I'm not sure if it's always like this, but some of the rides had four-hour waits, and we were like, that's interesting. Who would wait that long? And so, but what we read was, this is a culture of people who have been raised to be very patient. So they're like, we'll just stand here and hang out.

Speaker 2:
[62:53] That's one way to easily accumulate your 1000 hours outside. Multiple four-hour lines.

Speaker 1:
[63:00] Is waiting for the frozen ride at DisneySea. That's so funny, Lisa. This has been such a treat. Thank you so much for writing this wonderful book and for spending this time with us today.

Speaker 2:
[63:10] Okay. Thank you so much, Ginny.

Speaker 1:
[63:12] Have a nice day. You too.