transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:01] One podcast, Mining the Magic the Gathering Community for Salt. This is The Howling Salt Mine. Well, welcome back, everyone, to another episode of The Howling Salt Mine Podcast, the podcast where we delve into those salty, salty minds of the Magic the Gathering community, find the salty stories, the salty posts we love, the salty confessionals that we crave, put them into our mind cart and bring them right back up to you, our dear prospectors at home. As always, I'm your host, Sam, and I'm joined by my two lovely co-hosts, Mike and Tony. Say hey, guys.

Speaker 2:
[00:54] What up, what up, what up?

Speaker 3:
[00:56] Hello. Hello, indeed.

Speaker 1:
[00:58] Before we go any further, you know we got to shout out our nice tier patrons. And this week we have AlexBalex, ZZ, SwankyBadger, Joe, BoboFett, SreeTheTree, DBeason, ElgoFogel, ImmortalEat, Ruppy, Mifford, Silas, and WildWolf1090. Nice. But something else is nice today, guys. This is an auspicious episode for two reasons. The first reason is, this is episode 200. And that's a pretty big milestone. We were actually just talking before this episode that it's actually not our 200th episode, and we've put out more things. I think we got our podcast hosting service congratulated us like two months ago for posting 200 episodes. So there's some other things on the feed there, but they're not numbered episodes.

Speaker 2:
[01:41] That's shocking. Shocking that we could create content this long and still like each other.

Speaker 1:
[01:48] Well, you know, that we'll talk about that later. But more importantly, there's another person in the mine cart today. The mine cart is full. It's fully packed. The empty seat, there's somebody sitting in it. And we are happy to have this guest back, actually. Keen listeners will know that this is a returning guest. And we have with us, Josh Lee Kwai from The Command Zone.

Speaker 2:
[02:15] Josh, I feel like we need to add in some like, thanks for joining us everybody.

Speaker 3:
[02:20] Thank you for having me on again. To your not 200th episode. Jeez, I gotta talk to my agent. I heard this was the 200th episode.

Speaker 1:
[02:31] Well, you know, the other ones are like a bit of Patreon preview. There was like an announcement.

Speaker 3:
[02:36] It's the official 200th episode.

Speaker 1:
[02:38] Yeah, this is the official 200th episode.

Speaker 4:
[02:40] Episode 200.

Speaker 2:
[02:41] To the people, the people at home, this is 200.

Speaker 1:
[02:44] Yeah. I mean, if you really scrutinize the timeline of the show, you'll also see that episode 70 came before episode 69 because Tony was out of town and he caused a big stink. So our numbering is, it's pretty fast and loose, you know, it's flexible. But Josh, thanks for, thanks for coming on. We really appreciate having you here for this huge milestone episode. Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[03:04] Thanks for inviting me. It's a huge honor. And, you know, to come back again. Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[03:10] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[03:10] As people know, it's a huge honor the first time, but it's more of an honor this time.

Speaker 1:
[03:13] Yeah. I mean, it's going to be even better this time. I'm sure.

Speaker 4:
[03:16] Yeah. This one actually makes it to air.

Speaker 3:
[03:18] Yeah, of course.

Speaker 1:
[03:19] It's going to be way better.

Speaker 3:
[03:20] Like I'm talking. Well, for now, for now, they're presumably hearing my voice. Yeah. For now, we haven't passed the hard part yet. So yeah, I won't count my tickets.

Speaker 1:
[03:30] We haven't passed the exam yet. Man. So obviously people know you from Command Zone, which is just a fantastic EDH-focused Batch the Gathering podcast. And then Game Knights and Extra Turns, your awesome gameplay shows that are out there. And I have two pivotal things that I have to say about Game Knights in the life of our show. The first one is that it actually got me back onto Commander because I was a Commander hater for so long. And then one day Tony, who was doing everything in his power to get me to stop playing 60-card Magic, because we were just playing these Jank kitchen table decks.

Speaker 2:
[04:06] Yeah, because I had to play with him. So like all we would play was Jank 60-card decks.

Speaker 1:
[04:11] So he sent me this episode of Game Knights and I was going down to New York City to meet with the EPA because in a previous life I was an environmental engineer. And on the train ride down, I watched a couple episodes. And then on the train ride back, I was watching some episodes and a car stopped on the train tracks and it took them six hours to move it. And I ended up watching just Game Knights episode after Game Knights episode. And that is truly what got me hooked on Commander was, was this person that got stuck in the train tracks.

Speaker 3:
[04:43] That's awesome. That's amazing. The little did you know that it was actually Jimmy's in the car that got stuck. He was like, I'm going to hook this guy on Game Knights. Tony, Tony, thanks for doing the Lord's work there, by the way. We love hearing that we can help get people into Commander and you know, out of the other formats for sure.

Speaker 2:
[04:56] Well, I think the other thing that I would love to point out here is that, you know, a mantra of our show has always been sort of quality first. And that's definitely something I took from Command Zone and Game Knights because every time I watched your content, it was always about how can we do it better? How can we, you know, improve the quality of what we're putting out? And so I feel like from day one, we always took everything that we did here at The Howling Salt Mine very seriously from that perspective. And like obviously different scales, all those different things, but it's always been important to us. And it's like literally just something I took from y'all's content and it's great. So it's cool to have you here and like living this in a real world together now. It's like weird.

Speaker 3:
[05:38] Yeah. I'm happy that I'm living as well. Thank you so much Tony.

Speaker 1:
[05:42] Tony, you told us that that was something you came up with, man.

Speaker 3:
[05:47] That's awesome to hear. We love if we can be an inspiration even a little bit to people. I mean, you guys are at, you know, more than 200 episodes now. So evidently it's working.

Speaker 1:
[05:57] I remember the last thing I got to say is that it was for like almost a year straight. I think every single time Tony built a new deck, it coincided with a game nights episode that came out and you were playing the exact same deck. And we were always like, Tony, you're just copying Josh again. And he's like, I swear I'm not, I built this weeks ago.

Speaker 2:
[06:15] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[06:15] Tony just has good taste.

Speaker 1:
[06:16] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[06:21] Well, should we get into the tough part now?

Speaker 3:
[06:22] Oh no, I'm nervous now. I don't want to, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[06:24] I know. We all got to buckle into the minecart for this because it's going to be a bumpy ride. Whenever we have a guest on the show, we like to ask them a few questions. And it's really a grueling exam is what it is. Some people might call it an interview. This is a grueling exam.

Speaker 3:
[06:38] I've been cramming for it for like a week.

Speaker 1:
[06:42] Since you are a returning guest, we're going to skip the first part. We know how you got into Magic. If the listeners at home really want to know, I would recommend episode 642 of Command Zone, where you chat with your original play group. It's a delight. I've been listening to it all day today in between playing with my kid. And it's just, it's excellent. But the really important question, we got to buckle in. Josh, what makes you salty?

Speaker 3:
[07:07] This is actually a hard question for me because I'm not a very salty player. I'd spent a lot of time playing poker, which kind of like inoculates you from tilt. And so I'm kind of known for it. It's not that I never get salty, but I'm not, I don't get salty that often. If I had to sort of pick a thing, I think the thing that makes me, that is the most likely to make me salty anyway, is like when someone just straight up like breaks a political deal, like not like they tricked me with the wording. I can respect that. Like if they're lawyers better than mine, I can respect that. But when they just literally say, I'm not going to attack you and then attack you, I'm not going to destroy that and then destroy that like a literal lie. That will tend to make me a little bit salty.

Speaker 1:
[07:52] Oh yeah. Yeah. Even even just a little bit. That would make me go crazy.

Speaker 2:
[07:56] Give a recent example of that happening to you at a game that comes to mind at a curiosity.

Speaker 3:
[08:00] Wow. Wow. I don't want to ruin any future content, but let's just say that when I'm not sure when this episode is coming out, that we have a very exciting video that we've been working on for quite a long time. And that kind of happens in this video, which may be why it's top of mind for me. So I don't know if it's going to be out at the time. I mean, I could just sort of spoil it. We actually did. We shot a 10 player game.

Speaker 1:
[08:21] No.

Speaker 2:
[08:21] Oh God.

Speaker 1:
[08:23] Oh no, Josh. Wow.

Speaker 3:
[08:26] So it's pretty amazing. It was this ton of fun, but it took forever to film. And we're talking, we had a point, like 20 cameras at it. So editing took months and months and months.

Speaker 1:
[08:33] Oh my God.

Speaker 3:
[08:34] But we are close to done with it. So I feel good sort of, you know, you're the first, you're the first ones to sort of get the scoop publicly that we are doing this.

Speaker 1:
[08:42] Thank you.

Speaker 2:
[08:42] That's amazing. Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[08:43] So it's possible that by the time they're watching it's out, but probably not. It's probably close to out though.

Speaker 1:
[08:48] That's crazy.

Speaker 4:
[08:48] 10 people. So there is a long standing tradition on this show of being incredibly cringe of anyone playing more than four people in a game. So I'm really excited to see it. And yeah, I, you're telling me in the middle of a 10 person game, there's potentially someone breaking a deal.

Speaker 3:
[09:07] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[09:07] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[09:07] I won't give anything else away, but yeah. It was very chaotic in all the best ways, but there was also, yeah, there was a lot of politics going on as you might imagine, but yeah, there's a, there's one of those moments for sure.

Speaker 1:
[09:20] Was it just a large round table that you played around? Like I, I feel like the hard part of a large person game is when you're seeing, you know, the other board states and things like that, it becomes like a game of telephone. Like I see a car over there, but I don't know what it is.

Speaker 3:
[09:33] Yeah. No, no. It was one long table, five people on one side, five on the other. So yeah, there's definitely points where you have to like stand up and walk around the table to be like, what's over here again? But a lot of it is just like, I don't know what's going on down there, so I'm not going to worry about it.

Speaker 1:
[09:49] That's incredible. Oh my gosh. That would make me salty. That's awesome.

Speaker 4:
[09:56] So you've been the subject of a broken deal. Have you, do you have any times in your memory where you have been the perpetrator?

Speaker 1:
[10:03] Oh, good question.

Speaker 3:
[10:04] No, I have a pretty hard rule that I don't break deals. I don't think it's worth it in the long term.

Speaker 4:
[10:10] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[10:10] So there's a, you get a lot of equity from being trustworthy in that way.

Speaker 1:
[10:15] Definitely.

Speaker 3:
[10:15] I've definitely used like wording loopholes as far as like, but yeah, as far as like just straight up breaking deals, not, not to my knowledge and not on purpose. There's been some people don't understand how like game nights and extra turns are filmed. So there's, there might've been some times where like literally we might make a deal and then, you know, it eventually gets broken, but people don't understand that was six hours later and we went to lunch in between and nobody really remembered the exact terms of the deal. That's happened in both directions, which I don't tend to get salty about, but like in a regular game, when you make the deal and then like the next turn, they're like, okay, kill you. And you're like, wait, you said, and they're like, yep, I did say that by the, Hey, listen, but I, you know, your opponents are allowed to lie to you. So I get a little salty, but it's not like, I don't think they're allowed to do that. It just is like, that kind of sucks.

Speaker 1:
[11:00] It's not breaking the rules.

Speaker 3:
[11:01] Yeah. But it also means that like, I have to never trust them again. And I have to act like I can never trust them again. And I also have to tell them that I can never trust them again, because the only counterplay you have to them in those instances is the social pressure. And also just like, Hey, this will cost you in the long term. And it is the fact that like in every game we're in forever, you're an untrustworthy player, which means like, if there's any ties, I'm killing your stuff. I'm attacking you because I can never trust you.

Speaker 4:
[11:24] Yeah. I have, it was a famous moment for me when I, the first CDH tournament I played in, the judge said up front, by the way, your opponents can lie to you and they might. Yeah, it's legal. It's legal. Yeah. So yeah, it's totally that element of using the outside political capital that you have. That's the only, you're right, that's the only counter that you've got to it. Yep.

Speaker 1:
[11:46] So jumping off of that point, Josh, a question that I have for you is, when you're filming game nights, when you're filming extra turns, if somebody is getting salty at the table, is there anything you guys do? Do you like stop and pause and talk it out? Or do you just kind of push through with humor, focus more on the entertainment? Do people really get salty? Or is this something that like your team is just kind of, so you, I mean, Jimmy's getting man escrowed all the time. And now it's just like an excellent joke on the show. So that's not really, you know, he's got his mechanism for it already. Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[12:20] No, people definitely get salty. And Jimmy tends to get, he's a little more likely to get salty, a lot more likely than I am, Jimmy gets salty for sure. We tend to just kind of go with it and we'll even sort of like lean into it. So they'll, we'll talk about like, oh, so it was getting salty during the episode. Because to me, that's a relatable experience that most people have with Commander. And we're not trying to like portray the format as something it's not. So it's good to just be like out in the open, like that person's getting salty. And it's just like when your friend's getting salty, you're like, look how mad he is about it. And you kind of laugh at him. And it kind of like, it brings the volume down on everything a little bit. And it's okay. Being a little bit salty is like part of the game and a thing that you have to deal with and just know about. But it's, I don't think it's like this big boogeyman, you know, salt's part of the game.

Speaker 1:
[13:05] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[13:05] Yeah, grit your teeth and you get through it on either side. And you know, like I said, I find it a little bit funny sometimes. So there have been moments I will say with certain players and people where we might have a conversation beforehand, just being like, hey, remember, we're creating a TV show. It should be fun. Yeah, you know, try not to get too salty. We've had a couple of, I won't say who, of course, guests that have been on multiple times. And we realized by the second or third time, like, oh, it's just a little, a little conversation. And then during the game, you might be like, hey, remember, and they'll be, and you'll be like, oh yeah. And they can snap themselves out of it. That's about as far as it ever goes.

Speaker 1:
[13:39] That's great.

Speaker 3:
[13:40] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[13:40] I mean, we feel the exact same way. That's like the whole thesis statement of this show is that salt is funny, usually in hindsight. And if you can turn it into comedy in the moment, you dissipate a lot of the salt. And usually people can relax and kind of ease into things. You know, if that's the dynamic in your play group.

Speaker 3:
[13:56] Yeah, I think salt can actually also be wielded as a weapon so that you also, it's similar to the breaking the political deal thing where like, what's your counterplay to somebody being salty? Because putting off a lot of salt is a way to sort of thwart aggression towards you because people go, ah, they're already mad. I don't want to do anything about things mad. So they get to use it to their advantage. So I'm also just the type of player that's like, I will punish you for being salty because I don't want you to use it as an advantage against me. So Cassius is famously very salty. And I like to say, he gets salty and he'll concede games. And I'll be like, this is awesome because my strip mine says, kill target Cassius on it.

Speaker 4:
[14:36] Yeah, it's a powerful land.

Speaker 3:
[14:38] Yeah. When I say that to him, he's like, oh, because he can't get salty about it because he's actually asking me to use it against him. You know, my counter spell says, kill target Cassius on it. Because if sometimes you'll just concede you get so salty, this is awesome. My spell gets way more powerful. My card gets way more powerful. And that actually has the effect against certain people of like lowering the salt because they, you're using it against them. You're saying like, oh, if you get really salty, it's actually going to be worse. So you should probably like at least try to hide it.

Speaker 1:
[15:04] It kind of gives them that moment to reflect.

Speaker 3:
[15:06] Yeah. It's another reason I don't like to get salty because I don't want people to judo, you know, use that against me.

Speaker 1:
[15:11] Right.

Speaker 2:
[15:12] I think this is the first time we've really gotten that perspective of like people weaponizing the salt for those exact things.

Speaker 4:
[15:19] It's great.

Speaker 3:
[15:21] It's bogus. Yeah. It's bogus. I'm not going to let you do that. You get salty. I think you're weaponizing it. I'm going to have you harder. Oh man.

Speaker 1:
[15:30] Our play group dynamics is going to change after this.

Speaker 3:
[15:36] You're going to be like, I'll beat the salt out of you.

Speaker 1:
[15:40] Me and Tony are going to go at each other like crazy.

Speaker 3:
[15:44] The beatings will continue until morale improves for sure.

Speaker 1:
[15:48] Well, that is excellent. Well, guys, should we step into the mine here? I've got some salty stories set aside. I think it might be time. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[15:57] Let's get in there. I'm ready.

Speaker 3:
[15:58] I'm excited. I'm excited.

Speaker 1:
[15:59] Tony, it's your line.

Speaker 2:
[16:01] Oh shit. I'm just too hyped up on everything that's happening. But wait, Sam.

Speaker 1:
[16:07] Oh, Tony, yes.

Speaker 2:
[16:08] What is salt?

Speaker 1:
[16:10] Oh, Tony, great question. Thank you so much for asking. You didn't even have to be prompted. That was, that was so organic.

Speaker 2:
[16:16] That definitely is staying in the cut. And I'm going to be like, God damn it.

Speaker 3:
[16:19] 200 episodes. Eventually you'll, you'll probably even learn it. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[16:22] One of these days. And one of these days, Tony will learn what salt is. He won't have to keep asking every single episode. Well, salt is frustration in the game. As we like to say, it's an umbrella term that encapsulates so many things in Magic the Gathering. Maybe you're getting grumpy, irritated. Things aren't going your way. You're a little sulky because your deck isn't playing well. Maybe you have a power mismatch. Maybe somebody has a really tight wincon that you can't interact with. I had a lower power pod and that's pretty frustrating. Maybe it's a social dynamic thing. Somebody in your play group, somebody at your LGS. There's a lot of different types of salt out there. And we're here to talk about all of them so that we can learn from it and hopefully not be salty in a future game of Magic. As we like to say, it's an edge of magicational podcast.

Speaker 2:
[17:01] Fuck yeah.

Speaker 1:
[17:02] Fuck yeah indeed. Well, I've got some stories here for you. Let's see. Let's jump on into the mine. Sometimes we do search terms. We'll pick a random search term and go searching through the mine. But Josh, since you're here, since this is episode 200, we're just going to jump on into the mine with some pre-selected stories.

Speaker 2:
[17:20] Some curated salt.

Speaker 3:
[17:22] Oh, you've, you've chosen some really good ones. Okay.

Speaker 1:
[17:24] Oh, and you passed. The microphone is on. The microphone is still on Josh. You did pass.

Speaker 3:
[17:29] Oh, thank you. Oh yeah. I was so worried.

Speaker 1:
[17:32] You did excellent.

Speaker 3:
[17:35] I was like, guys, guys, am I still here?

Speaker 1:
[17:39] All right. We have a story here. And this one comes to us from our buddy, the Flying Dutchman. And the story is titled, Don't Take Out a Player Too Early. And this is a, this is a medium, I guess it's a long one. I'd call it a longer story. So everyone can buckle up if you aren't already buckled in the mine cart. This is a time to increase your safety and throw that, that belt buckle right on.

Speaker 2:
[18:03] Msh would be proud.

Speaker 1:
[18:04] Msh would be proud. That's the safety governance body for mines, Josh. Msh. Osha has no, has no ground here.

Speaker 4:
[18:11] No jurisdiction.

Speaker 1:
[18:15] And the story goes, Hello Howling Salty Dudes. It's me again, the Flying Dutchman. With a question, was I in the wrong? This is a story of how I lost my new Magic Commander group. I've been playing Magic with Tom and some other former colleagues for a couple of years. Tom got his friends interested in starting to play Commander as well, and he asked me to join the group. The first time we played was at one of the friend's house. His name is Juiced. After an evening of a couple of Commander games, we started that infamous last quick game. I decided to play my Rafique of the Many deck. Baz, another one of the players in the pod, played a mono blue horsemanship deck, and Tom was on trash panda Bellow Bard of the Brambles, and Juiced was on Elevir of the Wild Court. Juiced had been winning most of the previous games as that Elevir deck really slaps. After we had a couple of rounds where we were attacking each other, I proposed a truce between us before he went to combat to attack me again. I suggested that he would focus on the others. I also let him know that I had mana open and a handful of cards that I would use to stop his Commander coming my way. He declined this proposal, going in for the kill on me. With attackers declared, I cast Rescind on his Commander and put it back into his hand. After that, it was my turn. I again proposed a truce, but again he declined. So now I swung in for lethal on him, where he tried to swords to plow shares my Commander, but I had a counter spell for it. With that, he was knocked out and had to wait for us to finish, as he couldn't go home as we were playing at his house. And sadly, the quick game ended up going for another hour, as the other players had answers for Rafiq. In the end, I did manage to get a win, but yes, it sucks having to sit there watching others play. After that, a couple of months passed where we did get to play a couple of games, but not with Juice there. Later, I heard he wasn't happy about how he got knocked out early, and he brewed a new deck to take me out, a Voja deck. So we met up at Tom's Place where we sat down for a five player game. Yes, I know, but we got to play Magic. The first game we played, I was on Malcolm Vile Smasher Pirates. They provide the list, thank you. Doesn't matter what the others were playing as I got a turn four Glint Horn Buccaneer combo. After explaining the combo, we shuffled up for a new game. I thought there was no problem, but the salt level was rising with one of the players. He was wearing one of our T-shirts, Howling Wizard Salty Gang. Yeah, that should have tipped me off. So game two, I was on Tovalord, Dire Overlord. Not that powerful, but a fun deck that can bring some hurt. Don't remember what the others were on, but Juiced was on his special brood, Vojja deck that he was playing in game one as well. From the start, it was clear he was gunning for me. So I had a couple of werewolves on my board with my commander, so they're transform on my turn, and one whose werewolf was Sage of Ancient Lore, who got really big with five players, an Avabrack caretaker for protection and making everything even bigger. So Vojja was turning into a problem, especially for me, as he attacked me a couple of times, now putting me on 19 commander damage. But lucky me, I top decked a sword of body and mind that I put under my commander so I could swing in for the last 12 HP, as he'd already taken a big swing earlier from the Sage of Ancient Lore. And with that, I sealed my fate. I maybe should not have taken him out again first, but I didn't have any creature removal, and next turn I would be out, so I went for my last option, play removal, as he wasn't backing down and I couldn't block his commander. But as he was knocked out, he packed up his playmat and decks, put them in his bag and promptly left for home. He didn't want to talk it out. If I would have had a heads up that he was already pretty salty about the last time he played, I would have just taken the beating and hoped that that was it. His brother told me that after he left that he had brewed that Vosha deck specifically for me to take me out and had been working on it for weeks. I talked about it with the other people and asked if I did anything wrong, as I told them that I never targeted him, but I was just reacting to his attacks on me. Same goes for the first game. He was the aggressor in the first game as well and was attacking me first. But I had a talk after Juice left and asked if I did something wrong and he was still salty about the last game. I spoke with Tom last weekend and he informed me that Juice no longer wishes to play Magic with me. So effectively, I lost my Magic play group, as Juice is the brother of Baz and best friend of Tom. The others said they had no problem with me playing, they even enjoy playing with me. So now I am at the mercy of Juice if he can't let me play with them. So, high judges of the salty court, am I the asshole for taking out another player or should I have taken it easy as I am new to the group? And then there is a post script here. PS. You don't have to read this. Well, I am going to read it. I don't like to take out players early. This is interesting. I don't like to take out players early. Most of my decks are built to take out everyone at once with either an infinite combo or with simultaneous damage like Eureko. Before all games, we had a rule zero talk where I told them what my decks did and how fast they could possibly be. Nobody had a problem with it. The consensus was play the deck that you like to play. Well, thank you, Flying Dutchman. That's a great story. So we have a story of somebody knocking someone out early at their house. They have to sit by, watch the whole game unravel in front of them. Then they built a spite deck, brought it to the next game night, and wasn't able to spite play them and got salty about it.

Speaker 3:
[23:15] I think an underrated part of this story though that he kind of glosses over really quickly is that turn for Infinite Combo win in between the two games, which I think is probably actually a pretty good contributor to the salt level rising probably from everybody.

Speaker 1:
[23:30] I think so too.

Speaker 2:
[23:30] Yeah, especially because he was playing the Vohad deck in that game too. So he's like, I'm going to get them. And then he turned forward and said, he's like, OK, Infinite Combo. Sorry, see you. Not going to happen.

Speaker 4:
[23:42] Yeah, it's like a primer game starting the kindling of it. And then you can really tap into that as soon as anything goes wrong in that next game too.

Speaker 2:
[23:51] Yeah, it's a lot of death by 1,000 cuts in this scenario is what it feels like.

Speaker 1:
[23:55] I think Voltron decks are just strange in this way. It's very challenging. And I have a refeak of the mini deck that I don't play too often specifically for this reason, because I think in any Voltron deck, you just have to pick one player, target them down until they're dead, and then go through the other players. Cause if you spread damage, you're not gonna win cause someone will just kill you. And you really just need to focus people down. And sometimes you focus somebody down and they remove your commander. And then you just have to start to rebuild. And that's just kind of unfortunate with how Voltron decks play. I think that added salt there is that it's at this player's house.

Speaker 2:
[24:31] Yeah, like in their basement. Like they're going upstairs, grabbing a snack, trying to chill, trying to like see everything happen. And then they're like, this is still going on. Do you guys go home so I can go to bed?

Speaker 1:
[24:42] Literally. Yeah. I think that's just a frustrating social situation to have to sit through.

Speaker 3:
[24:47] Yeah, but it doesn't seem reasonable if the story is true that like so many outs were given, so many options to make a deal to like not. It seems like that person really didn't want to take out the homeowner, but like was kind of like left with no other options. So being salty about that game in particular, you know, I don't think that's probably warranted.

Speaker 1:
[25:10] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[25:11] Going into the sort of second play session where it's like infinite combo followed by take that person out again when they're coming at you. Yeah. It's so hard for me to relate to this because I started in a play group with this guy named Craig who was a poison player. He liked to put poison counters on him and he was like, Oh yeah, poison decks are Voltron decks, right? Like all of them want to just take out a player as fast as possible. So we just learned like, well, that's kind of how you play commander early and you better have removal and a blocker. Otherwise you're going to be the person that he comes at. And as long as you have those things, you'll go out somebody else and that person's in trouble, but not you. Yeah. But it's just like the way those decks play, but they are so glass cannon. That like, as long as you weren't the first player taken out, you could easily, you never had to worry about him. And that's just the way Voltron decks go. Doesn't seem worth getting salty about. So to me, though, it really is that middle game where he combos off on turn four, which is like, I don't know what the world rules, zero conversation looked like, but that's like a pretty early turn in a casual. It really is. Infinite comboing out. And I think that's really the fulcrum point of the whole story, which is like, if you did that, you probably are smart to like lay low for the rest of the night.

Speaker 1:
[26:16] Yeah, that's true. That's when you break out your bad deck.

Speaker 3:
[26:18] Like you just have to understand social dynamics. We get emails from people. We get sort of Dear John type of emails from people all the time. And one of the most common things we hear is like, hey, my playgroup always kills me first. What should I do about it? And I'm always like, just FYI, it's not bullshit. They are doing this for a reason. It's probably because you showed them no mercy for too long. So they're not going to show you mercy. And yeah, and it's like, everybody can get salty or whatever you want, but that's where the incentives are placed, right? They learned, hey, if we let this person like have any little bit of air, they will kill us. So let's just kill them first every time. And the only way you solve that is an equal and usually greater amount of time showing mercy, like spreading the love around. Don't win any games. Like that's the only, that's the only solve to this. If you're willing to spend, if you spent six months getting to that point, you're going to have to spend nine months or a year getting out of it. That's the calculus. That's the calculus. Like you earned your position. Yeah. So I'm not saying the salt is warranted, but also like that's just how humans work. So you got to understand like where you're at. You kill this guy first one time, then you combo off in an early turn. And then the very end, just let him, just let him have his, have his fun. And then you'll be fine. But you didn't do that. And now you're in a position where it's like, well, yeah, they kind of get to not invite you back if they don't want to, right?

Speaker 2:
[27:39] Like they're not forced to invite anybody.

Speaker 3:
[27:43] They get to play with who they want to. Yeah. And like all you had to do was just like, not win one game of Commander. Like you couldn't do that. So if you show no mercy, don't ask for any. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[27:53] You got to let them get it out of their system. I think it's an interesting thing because like after that first game, which like you said, there were so many outs for, for not getting blasted by Rafiq. You know, two months went by, they did build this Voja deck to spite this player, which is kind of an, you know, that's always sort of a red flag with me. I'm like, you're carrying that grudge a little bit too hard. You're carrying that salt a little bit too hard. But if someone built a spite deck just for me, I feel like I would try to beat them. You know, like that's, it's just, it presents a challenge.

Speaker 2:
[28:25] I think it boils down to though, like, one of my favorite things always is like perception is reality. And so it's like, it almost doesn't matter. Like if your end goal is to continue to play games in this pod, then yeah, that was probably a moment you had where you could have chosen to not do the thing and just let it go and be like, oh no, I couldn't, I've lost. Is that cool? Not really, but whatever. If the consequence is now you're not going to play with this pod anymore and you can't hang out, then you've lost more than was maybe worth it. But at the same time, talking about it out loud, it's like, well, if that's what you have to do to play in this pod, maybe just find a new pod. That's easier said than done, but it's the reality of life here.

Speaker 4:
[29:07] Yeah, to Josh's point, you have to read the social signals on it. And if someone has brought this spite deck, that's the yield sign already. And then you combo out on them infinitely. That's the guy actually holding the sign. And then after that, you're blasting through the work zone without realizing what you've done in this final game. So you definitely need to pick up the signs that are being waved in front of you.

Speaker 3:
[29:30] Yeah, I think it would be totally fine to be like, if the people are going to get this salty about this kind of stuff, this is not the playbook group for me, if that's what our protagonist was saying. But it seems like he's saying, oh, I wish I could continue to play with them. Well, if that was your win condition to continue to play with them, then you didn't play your hand very well to have that outcome happen.

Speaker 1:
[29:51] For sure. Definitely.

Speaker 2:
[29:52] Paying for his crimes now, though. So here we are. What do we think about the salt rating here on this one?

Speaker 1:
[29:59] Well, I'll kick it off. I mean, it's high salt. Anything, any situation where you are losing your play group over something that happened in a game is incredibly high salt. I think it's unfortunate that you didn't have an opportunity to talk it out with this person, especially after that first salty game, just to kind of say like, hey, you know, I gave you your outs with my Voltron deck. You didn't take them. It's just a game. It is what it is. Even after that third game, maybe just shuffling up and playing one more game might have been enough and been being able to have them kill you with that deck that they built, especially for you. That said, like I said, I think if somebody built a spite deck just for me, I don't know if I would roll over and be attacked by it and lose to it. I think that's just a, you kind of have to look at the bigger picture of, are you trying to win the game or are you trying to preserve good graces in your play group? I think this is a situation where you should have preserved those good graces.

Speaker 2:
[30:55] I guess I'll tell you why. If you come to my house and you drink my beer and you knock me out first, I will build a spite deck probably with your name on it. But what are you going to do?

Speaker 3:
[31:06] Yeah, I think the people who are not inviting them back are clearly in the wrong here. Because it'd be one thing. Like this is two play sessions, so it's just hard to draw any conclusions that quickly. To me, you maybe fire a warning shot, don't invite them to the next one. Give people a shot, give them a chance. It's just not enough data points to really draw any conclusions about anybody. So still invite them, give them a chance to understand that's maybe not how this group wants to play or whatever. But I do think it was also just pretty BS to even be mad about the very first game, where it's like, a person offers you a deal multiple times to not knock you out. You don't want to take it, and then he says, okay, fine, well, then you're dead. I think it's hard to be reasonably angry in that situation.

Speaker 1:
[31:55] Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 4:
[31:56] I think in particular, if you're in a group of five, you've got to be feeling like you're a little on the ropes already too. Like the game is often played with four most commonly. So if you're this fifth person, you want to make sure you're not that fifth person. So it's another time to be particularly careful about how you're interacting with people as you play.

Speaker 1:
[32:16] That's such a good point. If they kick you out, they just have a perfect pod, right?

Speaker 4:
[32:22] Simple.

Speaker 3:
[32:23] Yeah, that's a really good point.

Speaker 1:
[32:25] Well, another story.

Speaker 4:
[32:26] Yeah, let's do it.

Speaker 1:
[32:27] Let's delve deeper. All right, I have a story right here, and it comes to us from our buddy, Dajola is their name. And the post is titled, You Can't Get Rid of the Baba Ring. And the story goes, Hello dear crusty crustaceans, long time listener, first time writer here. Thanks for the many hours of fun that have got me through various horrible train and bus rides. I feel like it's finally time that I contribute to the mine. I have a couple of salty stories suspiciously all related to one particular player in our play group. Let's call him the Babadook. Let's dive into a particular story I've been thinking about and would like to hear how you guys would have handled it. My memory might be a bit foggy, but the memory of the general feeling is very much still there. And by the way, fun fact, I learned on my journey to become a psychologist that we tend to remember salty situations better than others because the hippocampus, the memory center, is very closely located to the amygdala, the center of emotion in our brains, making the memory stronger and easier to retrieve pretty much. This is, after all, an Edgum educational podcast.

Speaker 2:
[33:31] Yeah. Hell yeah.

Speaker 1:
[33:33] Now on to the actual story. Buckle up. We were playing a four-player game with friends at my place around bracket two or three. But before brackets were a thing, I was piloting my newly built Clement, the Worry Wart Frog combo deck. Player two and three were on Lilliana, Heretical Healer and Henzi, Toolbox Tory. They were not very relevant, I think. The Babadook was on Sauron, the Dark Lord, his low tour themed value slash control deck. The early turns went all right. I was bouncing my frogs or some shit, doing value Simic stuff, gooning in the corner. Lilliana and Tory were doing some value stuff while destroying our stuff and making us discard cards. The Babadook was in Seat 4 and getting a little bit fucked while still being threatening at times. The game went on to a point where the Babadook cast a Vampiric Tutor on end step before his turn. The rest of us tend to generally try to keep powerful tutors toward trash magic decks, bracket 4 for any new listeners out there. But since his brother gave it to him and he therefore owns a real one, he wanted to put it in a deck. Fair enough. The following turn, he cast the one ring that he had just tutored up. That's also a card a bit beyond the power level of the other decks at the time, but he runs it in there because of flavor reasons, since Sauron is his commander. Fair enough. Here comes the salty moment. He had no mana left up, and I conveniently happened to sit on a Spellpierce in my hand, the perfect counter. When I put the Spellpierce on the stack, he totally lost it. The Babadook has a tendency to get angry when we target or attack him, and not the funny game rage either, but more like genuine anger, which is hard for me to not take personally or be intimidated by. This strategy happens to be very effective in our Swedish playgroup, where everyone is culturally conflict avoidant by nature. This has led to a bit of a trend to others letting him do his thing, and his win rate is closing in on 40%. So he says, I'm behind, and this is my only chance to catch up a bit. If you counter my ring, I've wasted my tutor, and I'm completely out of the game, and I'll just scoop and leave. He exclaimed at the sight of my goofy Secret Lair Spellpierce. You can feel the mood souring around the table. If I don't counter it, he'll most likely win the game with all the value. But if I do, things will get really awkward and maybe escalate. Aren't we all here just to have a good time after all? Okay, I said, we'll do it this way. This card is incredibly fucking broken, and you'll probably win the game with it, and every cell in my body is telling me that countering it is the right play. But I won't to keep you from leaving. Let's see this as an experiment. If you go on to win because of it, you'll see how big of a threat it is, and we can have an argument for countering it on site in the future. The Babadook swiftly went on to draw 15 cards with his ring over the next turns and win the game from all the value. Meanwhile, I sat for the rest of the game with my crusty Spell Pierce rotting in my hand. After the game, the Lilliana player was so mad at the Babadook that he packed up his things and left to later trauma dump to the rest of us on Discord. So the game night was over anyways. Guess I shouldn't have let the Babadook get me in the first place, huh? We haven't talked about the incident since then, and no One Rings or Spell Pierces have crossed paths, so we haven't really had the opportunity to catch it on the quote deal, but I'm still waiting saltily. So I turn to you. How would you have handled the situation? What do you think of the path that I chose to take? All the best, DiJola.

Speaker 3:
[36:53] Man, this is like T-ball. Isn't this exactly what we were talking about earlier? Did you find this story while I was talking about what we were talking about earlier? I got the perfect thing for this and I slotted in. This is crazy.

Speaker 1:
[37:04] Yeah, I picked this out last night.

Speaker 3:
[37:06] So this is really easy. I gave you exactly what to say. You go, wait, so my Spell Spirits says kill target Bobadook on it? Play it.

Speaker 1:
[37:15] Exactly.

Speaker 3:
[37:16] Just this card went from like very mediocre to like one of the best cards in all of magic. Kill Tarle, you're an opponent. Yeah. Like, yeah, of course I'm playing that card. Bye.

Speaker 1:
[37:25] Yeah. One man, a target player loses the game. That's incredible.

Speaker 3:
[37:29] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[37:29] That's CEDH level.

Speaker 3:
[37:30] Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[37:33] It's so unfortunate that you have someone who gets so viscerally angry that you have to dance around their emotions to continue to play the game. I think that's a really frustrating situation. Yeah. Because it works. It clearly works.

Speaker 2:
[37:47] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[37:48] They're weaponizing the salt. Don't let them do it.

Speaker 2:
[37:50] It's one of those things where they're going to just do it again.

Speaker 1:
[37:52] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[37:53] Yeah. It doesn't matter that you... Now that, sure, they won that game, if it were to come up again, they would still just cry. They're still going to be like, I'm going to leave. I'm not going to like whatever. And so it feels like they're not actually going to learn the lesson, which is the unfortunate thing coming out of this.

Speaker 4:
[38:11] If anything, you've shown them that it works.

Speaker 3:
[38:13] Yeah. The way you teach them the lesson is you go absolutely counter it and then you put stifles and crap in all your future decks and you try and be like, well, I learned that you concede when I do this stuff to you. I'm just doing it more until they learn like, oh, when I whine, he wants to do stuff like this to me. I better stop whining. That's how, that's the only path you've got to like changing it.

Speaker 1:
[38:32] That's so great.

Speaker 3:
[38:33] The advice I often give is like for people like that, you're actually looking to have the conversation of like, you do this all the time, let's talk about it. And the way you bring the conversation to the table is you force it out in the open. And the way you force it out in the open is you do this stuff. You don't back down and allow them to like have no confrontation about it. Because then it'll just continue forever. And you have to ask yourself like, am I willing to live in the world and play in this play group where this is going to happen forever? And it's like, no, I don't want it to happen forever. Okay. Well, the best way to stop it then is play your Spell Pierce. And like I said, keep doing it until they're like, why do you keep doing that? I'll tell you exactly why. Here we go.

Speaker 4:
[39:08] Yeah. Yeah. Like the author of the story is like, well, I get, we haven't seen Spell Pierce and the One Ring show up together again. So we haven't had the opportunity to discuss it. It's like, well, that's why you've got to lean in in that moment. You got to make it known right then and there and not hope that exactly these two cards show up again in a hundred card singleton format.

Speaker 3:
[39:27] No, it's not about those cards specifically. That's what I mean is like, yeah, I'd be putting every like frustrating card I can and then targeting that person to just get, have that conversation again.

Speaker 1:
[39:36] Yeah. And I mean, at the top of the story, they even say that they have all these salty stories related to one player in their play group. And like you said, Josh, it's one of those things where I think after having a bunch of these situations, you need to either have a conversation with this player or stop playing with them. And that's like give them a chance to change or just don't give them a chance, but don't give them another chance to get salty at you. This just doesn't sound like fun magic to me. I don't want to lose the game because I'm being browbeat by somebody who's threatening to ruin the good time we're having. And then the worst part is that they win the game and the other player, the Liliana player, gets so salty that they leave. So somebody still left and the Game Knights still ended. But this really toxic player just got away with everything. Which is just the shit icing on the crap cake. It's not good.

Speaker 3:
[40:30] Can I change my answer from earlier? Actually, the thing that makes me the most salty is like when people get really whiny. And Commander players are so whiny, they whine about everything.

Speaker 2:
[40:40] They whine about every game, I'm sure.

Speaker 3:
[40:43] Just Commander players in general, just the discourse is so crazy. Like you can't counter things, you can't remove things, you can't cast board wipes, you can't be too competitive, you can't destroy lands, you can't... Like the list is so freaking long that they just whine about everything. And it's just like, yo, it's a game. We're trying to like have some fun and win. And every once in a while, something that you find mildly frustrating might happen. Just swallow it. Like it's fine. Like you don't have to whine. It's not the end of the world. You're gonna be fine. Go eat some Cheetos and we'll have another game later. And it might be next week or whatever, but it'll be fine. You're gonna be fine. Like just, yeah. But people that just get like extremely whiny are just like, it just puts so much pressure on everybody around them to like placate them. And that's like, am I here to placate everybody? No, I'm here to like have fun and like have some yucks. Like, yeah, I don't want my job to be like, you know, did this, everybody at the table have the most fun night they've ever had because I didn't do anything that mildly frustrated them.

Speaker 2:
[41:38] Literally, literally feel your salt and it's so good.

Speaker 3:
[41:43] I didn't really realize. I didn't really realize that's what makes me salty until we start talking about this. I'm like, Oh man, that's really frustrating.

Speaker 1:
[41:50] Yeah. Cause you're just playing a different game.

Speaker 3:
[41:52] Just stop whining.

Speaker 1:
[41:52] Just take it.

Speaker 3:
[41:53] Just take it. It's fine.

Speaker 1:
[41:55] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[41:56] It's fine. You lose game. Sometimes people destroy your stuff. Sometimes. Trust me. It happens to me more than anybody. It's fine. You're going to be fine. Oh man. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[42:04] You want to, you want to hear how often it happens. We have a whole show about getting salty. When we play with our patrons or play conventions, people are like trying to make us salty. It's like a shtick. It's a shtick. They're like, Oh, I'll destroy yours. Cause you're the host. I'm like, come on, man.

Speaker 3:
[42:22] Yeah. I mean, Jimmy, Jimmy and I have this joke that like, we never win a game at events because people always want to kill us because you get to tell your friends, you killed Josh or Jimmy. So like, like we go to Magic on weekends, we play games and like, we'll not win the entire weekend. Like that, that people just will not allow it.

Speaker 4:
[42:39] And they'll probably whine while they're beating you the whole time too.

Speaker 3:
[42:44] I got to say, they're very nice to us about it. They're super nice. You know, and then they have a sign, the card that they killed them with or whatever, which is, you know, it's, it's nice. It's fine. I get, I get, I understand. It doesn't make me salty because I get, if I were them, I'd do the same thing.

Speaker 1:
[42:56] Like, you know, for sure. It's funny after a certain point.

Speaker 4:
[42:59] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[42:59] They're never, they're not going to go home and tell the story that they beat Joe from Atlanta, but they are definitely going to be like, oh yeah. And then I killed Josh Lee Kwai in this game with this card and it was awesome.

Speaker 1:
[43:06] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[43:07] And check it out.

Speaker 1:
[43:07] He signed it.

Speaker 3:
[43:09] Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Speaker 1:
[43:12] Oh, that's great.

Speaker 2:
[43:13] Well, what do we think about the salt rating here on this one? High salt from Josh. It's pouring out of his veins.

Speaker 3:
[43:22] Yeah. I I'm very sympathetic to the salt from, from the, what was the name of the person who wrote the story from?

Speaker 1:
[43:28] Dijala.

Speaker 3:
[43:29] Yeah. Dijala, our Swedish friend. So I'm sympathetic to this salt because I totally get that. Like, this is a person who is weaponizing their salt and their whininess. Yeah. And who's 40% win rate is just like a lot.

Speaker 1:
[43:42] Crazy.

Speaker 3:
[43:42] Yeah. So turn that person into the person that's emailing me saying, why does my play group kill me first every time?

Speaker 2:
[43:48] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[43:50] That's your job. That's what you should be doing.

Speaker 1:
[43:51] Yeah. And as always, I mean, we don't say this all the time, but you can always just show them this episode of the podcast. But yeah, I mean, obviously incredibly salty. You're playing with somebody who's threatening to leave every single time something bad happens to them. It's like, just let them leave. Play a few three player games. It's going to be fine. Probably be better, honestly. But this is just crazy. How this player is acting is insane.

Speaker 4:
[44:22] The extra salt to me in this one is the other two players that know that you have a spell pierce and see you not use it on the one ring. I'd be furious. I'd be like, what are you talking about? We know he's about to win. Play the spell pierce. Come on. Like there should be three people all aligned on one decision and one person complaining about it in this scenario. So for it to boil down to like a one person talking to this other person piece, like that's some of the salt and meat. Your pod needs to be backing you up on stopping literally the Dark Lord from winning the game.

Speaker 2:
[44:55] Which is so true too, because a lot of times I feel like that person has a counter spell, they hold it up, they don't do it. And the other people not saying something really impacts it. Because if they just had, the person's probably less inclined to be like, oh, I'm going to quit this game because they see that it's a three to one. But when it's one to one and the other people in the pod aren't saying anything, it's like, all right, I'll just go fuck off in the corner and hold my sad fucking spell fierce and like, whatever.

Speaker 1:
[45:23] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[45:23] That's a really good point. I mean, yeah, the thing you say there is, why did you put spell pierce in your deck? If you're not going to counter the one ring, when it gets cast, like what, what? Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[45:33] What are you saving that for?

Speaker 3:
[45:35] Yeah. What are you trying to? What?

Speaker 1:
[45:37] Also the fact that the one ring, you know, can't be destroyed. It has to be countered or it has to be exiled.

Speaker 3:
[45:44] Exactly. What are your options against that card once it hits the table? Like, yeah, it's crazy.

Speaker 2:
[45:51] But Josh, they had a good game and they drew a lot of cards. So it's okay.

Speaker 3:
[45:59] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[45:59] Maybe they needed the win emotionally.

Speaker 3:
[46:02] Yeah. You know, they only win four out of 10 games.

Speaker 4:
[46:06] Yeah. They really needed this one.

Speaker 2:
[46:09] Well, they're trying to get to 50%. They won five out of ten.

Speaker 1:
[46:14] That's not enough. All right. Should we round it out with one final story here?

Speaker 2:
[46:18] One last one.

Speaker 1:
[46:19] Let's do it. So this one comes to us from our listener, Pappers. And this one is short, sweet, into the salt, as we like to say. And this story is titled Absolution at the Salt Mill. And the story goes, greetings all. I come begging for forgiveness and absolution for my salty, salty sins. I let the salt get the better of me. And I'm now seeking support from the overlords of the salt mine. A little salty confessional. I was late getting to my local LGS one game night on a Wednesday, but managed to jump in as the last person in a pod with my friend James in seat three, someone I didn't know who will call Vintage Guy sat in seat two. And there was also someone in seat four that didn't do anything. Get fucked for the player, as we like to say. I pull out my big green stompy creature deck. James is playing some green ramp shenanigans and Vintage Guy says he's got a deck that he's just built. It's Guy Ruda. I ask whether this is likely to be a super oppressive deck. And he said he mostly played Vintage and hasn't a lot of commander experience, but would like to give this deck a go. Reluctantly, we agree and the game begins. I won't bore you with the details, but the Guy Ruda deck is all clones and fast mana. And Vintage Guy proceeds to stomp the entire table, taking 10 minute turns and kills us all without us having any chance to do much at all. I hate being milled out, but kept my salt under wraps at this point. We played a second game, and he played a different deck, which was not as brutal, but all seems to be fine. For the third game, he said he was going to play his Guy Ruda deck again. I said that was fine, as long as he didn't mind if I played a lot more interaction this time. I pulled out my Baral Chief of Compliance deck and shuffled up. Oh boy. I cast a Declaration of Naut on turn two, naming Guy Ruda. My Baral deck is basically counterspells only, with Expropriate as a win con, once I've liberally thrown salt around the table. By turn eight, Vintage Guy is super salty and states that I'm stopping him from playing the game as I've countered any removal he's tried to use to get rid of the Declaration of Naut. After discussion with the rest of the table, I agreed to allow it to be removed, thinking I'm being the better person. Next turn, Vintage Guy casts Guy Ruda, copies it multiple times and wins the game in the same way as the first game. We pack up with everyone fully aggrieved at how the evening has gone down. After this, I retired my Baral deck, as it's no fun for anyone to play against, and it's just not fun to pilot either. Also, we've never seen Vintage Guy since. Thanks for all the great shows, Pappers. So before we jump into this one, let me just read Declaration of Nott for the good folks at home. This is a blue enchantment. It costs two blue mana. As Declaration of Nott comes into play, name a card, and then it has an activated ability for one blue mana, counter target spell with that name.

Speaker 2:
[49:03] That's kind of different than I thought it was gonna be. I thought it was just gonna be like a sorcerer's spyglass or one of those things where you just can't cast it, or it's gonna cost more mana. But just like, perma, if I have a blue mana, I will counter your commander.

Speaker 1:
[49:15] I will counter it.

Speaker 2:
[49:16] Interesting.

Speaker 1:
[49:16] It's pretty brutal, man.

Speaker 2:
[49:18] Yeah, I would cry if someone did that to my commander. I don't know that I'd whine. I'd be like, weeping. It's different, you know, just in the corner. But it feels like that's brutal, because as you're reading it, I was like, they should let them get it once. And then they fucking win with it. And you're like, well, I guess not. Like you fool me once, you know, but like, I don't know. I was feeling for them in the story.

Speaker 1:
[49:44] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[49:44] It's sort of the nature of these like all or nothing commanders though, like, Gairuda is like this. If it hits, you're gonna flip into a clone if the deck is built this way. And it's likely to, you know, get your next Gairuda trigger. And you have to basically whiff for it to somehow not land into a serious problem or a game winning problem. And when something is all or nothing, this player already got their all game. So it's okay for this to be their nothing game. And you should just keep countering it. You should just keep countering it. It's fine. That's my take here.

Speaker 3:
[50:16] Wait, who's salty here?

Speaker 1:
[50:18] So this is a salty confessional. So Pappers is coming to us and basically saying that they got salty enough to bust out their Baral deck and ruin this guy's game night by saying he could never cast his commander.

Speaker 4:
[50:30] Unsuccessfully.

Speaker 1:
[50:31] There's a bit of salt all around here. You know, we got a little bit of salt.

Speaker 3:
[50:35] Right. But is that yeah, is that person really that salty because they did the Garuda thing and won again?

Speaker 1:
[50:41] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[50:42] If the person writing the story is not salty, I don't think we can infer necessarily that the Garuda guy is salty.

Speaker 1:
[50:48] So who's salty? I think it's a little bit of both. I feel like Pappers was very salty after that first game. Salty enough to bust out Baral, right? Which is just one of those decks that the Baral counterspell deck. You keep in your back pocket, you're bringing out to punish the Pub Stompers. But yeah, like you said, they still ended up losing. If I was Pappers, I would be salty about losing and letting my declaration of not get removed.

Speaker 3:
[51:13] Yeah, but so what? I mean, he got removed and then he immediately won the game. It's not like you had to sit there for like an hour and like, you know, wallowing in. It was like, okay, cool. Then that happened. And then what? Like, okay, cool.

Speaker 1:
[51:24] And then he was never heard from again.

Speaker 3:
[51:25] So yes, I mean, somebody was going to win that game. And it probably wasn't the Baral deck. And you know, if it was so what, like how does the story really change?

Speaker 4:
[51:33] Like, you know, I'm pretty sure Baral deck only expropriate win con had it.

Speaker 3:
[51:37] Like, how do people want commander nights to go? They want the perfect three games where like everybody like does the thing, but doesn't quite win, but feels like they could have and nobody like removed anything that was really important and also nobody stopped anybody from doing anything. Like, how is it that you expect like three games on a commander night to go?

Speaker 1:
[51:54] Yeah, everyone got to do the thing. No one stopped anyone. Everyone gets that.

Speaker 2:
[51:58] And then it magically ended in a draw.

Speaker 3:
[52:00] And then everybody won.

Speaker 1:
[52:02] There's a group hug at the end of the game.

Speaker 2:
[52:04] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[52:06] It's why divine intervention needs to be in every deck.

Speaker 2:
[52:11] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[52:11] I don't think anybody has any reason to be salty in any direction here. This is fine. This happens. It's just not a big deal in any direction. I played a really powerful deck. Then they played another game and the guy was like, okay, I better play my deck that stops powerful decks. And then that powerful deck still won. And it's like, okay.

Speaker 4:
[52:27] I think to me, the salt is again, being whined out of your deck, being functional. It sounds like this Baral player wants to play a counter spell kindred deck and they don't have, you know, the conviction to actually counter the things that they need to be countering. So if you're going to build this deck where your whole plan is, yeah, I'll stop everything. If that's a problem, you have to then be willing to follow through on that threat of violence basically and counter everything that's going to be a problem, like including the removal for your enchantment that's countering the Gairuta.

Speaker 1:
[52:57] Yeah, I think it's one of those deck types where if you are truly committing to play it, like you have to commit all the way. You know, I was playing with some patrons a couple months ago and somebody was playing a Maren deck and this was after a deck exchange. So everybody was given a random deck built by another patron and we were all playing together for the first time that night. So with the Maren deck, we all know Maren is recurring a creature every single turn and they started to get one of those creatures that comes to play, sacrifices a creature for everybody and they kept doing it. And then after a couple turns of that, they were like, you know, I'm not going to do it anymore. I feel bad for you guys. I'm going to let you build your board up. And we were like, no, you have to do it. You're a Merran deck. This is what Merran decks do. You have to commit to the evil of this thing. You must be destroying us. This is how you win the game. And that's how Baral wins. It's a strange deck. I don't think they really win very often, but you do have to commit to the bit of not giving an inch, counterspell everything. Otherwise don't have the deck. And it does sound like they retired it because it also doesn't sound very fun to play. But I think you do have to commit to it.

Speaker 3:
[54:05] It's probably not fun to play or play against. I don't agree that you can sort of play the deck sub optimally for fun if you want to. I make decisions like this all the time where it's just like, it would be smart to attack one person. I'm just going to spread all my attacks out here though, because it's fun. I went off, I put a bunch of stuff on the board, but I don't actually want to kill anybody here because I want everybody to have a shot to have fun in this game. So I'm just going to spread out my attacks, do 12 to everybody rather than 36 to one. And then, you know, you guys all have a chance here to get me under control. And I lose a lot of those games, but I don't feel like I lost in the game of life when I did that. I feel like I won in the game of life when I did that. So Baral could just be like, cool, this, you're not having fun. And I don't make this decision here where you can have a little bit of fun. And I'll allow you out of this prison that I built. And it's like then the guy won and hopefully he's not salty. But if the Baral player is saying they're not salty, then where's the salt? I think everybody's fine.

Speaker 2:
[55:00] If anything, I think they should have just kept the enchantment and then been like, I'll let you cast it. And then actually not activated it. Yeah. When when clones get copied on things like that for Garuda, does it ever come in as the name? Like when it enters as a copy of is on the stack is something else.

Speaker 4:
[55:18] Yeah. You wouldn't be able to counter the clone.

Speaker 3:
[55:21] It's not a Garuda on the stack.

Speaker 2:
[55:23] Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[55:24] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[55:25] Yeah. So I mean, once it comes in, the floodgates are open. I mean, I have a Garuda deck that is exactly this. And I think it's really fun to play. But it is a ticking time bomb. You know, it is it's like you guys have to have removal. You have to hit me on the stack when the clone is on the stack. You got to kill Garuda. So then it comes in and nothing happens. For sure. It's just one of those decks that demand something that's a little bit more interactive. I don't think you have to go full Baral on it. But clearly it works when you do. I would say there is something with the pregame conversation that's a little strange coming from the Vintage Guy player where they ask, how is this deck? Is it really fast? And he just says, I don't really know. I don't play a lot of Commander, which we all start somewhere. That could be very true. I think a lot of people start Commander. They net deck. They get something super strong and just play it. So that would have bothered me if they didn't have this second game where he played a different deck and everything was just fine. And they just had a great game. You know, if it was just salty Gairuda games, top to bottom all day, I think this would be a saltier story. But that second game that we don't really get a lot of attention on, it sounds like it was just a pleasant game with a stranger. And that's fine.

Speaker 4:
[56:36] Also, to have enough knowledge of this player to name them as Vintage Guy, people coming from 60-card formats are so much more used to playing things at the peak of what the format can support in terms of power level. And so, I'm not surprised when someone is playing the fast mana. They play Vintage, they have these cards already. So, I think there's some expectations you can set when you've deduced some of this information about the Gairuda player that makes even Game 1 not that much of a surprise. It might not feel great when you're actually playing it, but I don't think it's a huge surprise when you've already heard some of what they have shared in that pregame situation.

Speaker 1:
[57:15] Definitely.

Speaker 2:
[57:16] What's the salt rating on this one?

Speaker 3:
[57:18] Zero.

Speaker 2:
[57:19] Yeah, I was going to say there's fucking nothing.

Speaker 1:
[57:21] nothing.

Speaker 3:
[57:24] Zero. There should be no salt.

Speaker 2:
[57:27] I think that is maybe a first. Is that a first?

Speaker 4:
[57:31] No, we get sugar breaks all the time. Which this is not.

Speaker 1:
[57:33] This is certainly not a sugar break.

Speaker 2:
[57:35] Yeah, not a sugar break, but just no salt. Get fucked. Who's the person that submitted it?

Speaker 1:
[57:40] Pappers. I think as far as salty confessionals go, this one, it would be a different ending if you had kept the declaration of not in play, this person stormed off because they didn't get to do anything in the entire game. But that didn't really happen. So I don't know if there's a lot of salt that you need to be forgiven for or absolved of because the game kind of, you were already absolved of it. You stopped countering all of their shit and you lost the game and you took the deck apart. It's kind of the happy ending is right there in the story. So there isn't really a lot of salt to forgive you for when it comes to this confessional.

Speaker 2:
[58:17] Buck and Zero, you heard it here first.

Speaker 1:
[58:19] I'll give you a little sprinkle. I'll give you a little pinch of salt.

Speaker 4:
[58:22] A singular grain.

Speaker 2:
[58:23] The little bit that like is sort of stuck on the inside of the lid to the salt thing. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[58:29] If you do a pinch of salt when you're cooking and your fingertips are just a little wet and then you have a little bit left over, that's the...

Speaker 2:
[58:35] But I throw that shit in the sink. I don't even put it on my food. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1:
[58:38] It's the salt I'm sprinkling into the sink. Okay, gotcha.

Speaker 2:
[58:42] Well, Sam, is it that time of the week?

Speaker 1:
[58:44] Oh, Tony, I think it is that time of the week.

Speaker 2:
[58:47] Oh shit, baby. Well, lay it on me. What time of the week is it?

Speaker 1:
[58:50] It's the time of the week that comes every week.

Speaker 2:
[58:52] Every motherfucking week, baby.

Speaker 1:
[58:54] It's the time of the week where we say, Mike.

Speaker 3:
[58:57] Mike, Mike, Mike, Mike, Mike, Mike, Mike, Mike, Mike.

Speaker 4:
[58:59] Yes?

Speaker 1:
[59:00] What's the salty card of the week?

Speaker 4:
[59:02] The salty card of the week this week is.

Speaker 1:
[60:04] Tearing up my heart by in sync.

Speaker 2:
[60:07] Oh, I fucking knew, dude. I was locked in the second you started.

Speaker 4:
[60:11] Tony was about to hit harmonies on that.

Speaker 2:
[60:13] I was about to throw them down. Didn't even know. Did that get sent in or did you do that one?

Speaker 1:
[60:19] No, I just came up with that one.

Speaker 2:
[60:22] That was pretty good.

Speaker 1:
[60:23] I like that one.

Speaker 4:
[60:24] Well, thanks, Sam. That was a lovely salty song of the week.

Speaker 1:
[60:27] Thanks, Mike.

Speaker 4:
[60:28] The salty card of the week this week is Time Warp.

Speaker 1:
[60:32] Time Warp.

Speaker 4:
[60:33] It is three and two blue for a sorcery. Target player takes an extra turn after this one. So Josh, does this card make you salty?

Speaker 3:
[60:44] Not particularly. No, they've learned a few things since they designed this one, like exile them after they get casted.

Speaker 4:
[60:50] For sure.

Speaker 3:
[60:52] I mean, it signifies something that I, you know, I think is justifiably a little bit salt inducing, which is like, if this is like a one-off extra turn spell on your deck, it's not that big a deal, but this is probably an adect that's doing extra turns a lot, looping it with snapcaster mage and other ways. And I can understand that's not the funnest gaming experience for everybody. So if you haven't had the correct rules or zero conversation before you start pulling a lot of extra turns out, I think they can be justifiably a little bit salt inducing for sure.

Speaker 4:
[61:22] For sure.

Speaker 3:
[61:23] But like this card in a vacuum, fine.

Speaker 4:
[61:28] Love it. Tony, does this one make you salty?

Speaker 2:
[61:30] Yo, fuck blue. I feel like I'm surprised, Josh, because I feel like the amount of whining you hear when a spell like this comes down is high. And so I'm surprised that you're low. And like, I get what you're saying that totally in a vacuum, when you like exclude everything else, it is like not a salty card necessarily. Like five mana. I do the thing one more time and it should just end there. But I think this always just is like like you're sort of pointing to. It's an indicator of something else. And usually people aren't doing this once. But I will say the best feeling of my life was when I deflecting swatted one of these right onto myself in a series game. And I was like, let's fucking go. And there was no blue to counter me at the time either. And I was like, this is literally, it was a high. I'll chase for the rest of my life. But those are my thoughts on this one.

Speaker 4:
[62:24] Yeah. Sam, how about you? How do you feel about this one?

Speaker 1:
[62:27] Well, Tony just reminded me of a way that this can make me really salty, which is when someone deflecting swats onto themselves. That would be rough for a five-man investment trying to get an extra turn. Generally speaking, I think extra turns are, for me, the most frustrating when there's like three or four. And I just have to sit through somebody taking a lot of extra turns in a row. Infinite extra turns I have no problem with, because that's just a win-con. It's the same as like dropping a Thos's Oracle or something. But it is very power level dependent. So it's pretty contextual here. Generally speaking, extra turns I think are fine. But like you said, it's a signpost for power level. And at lower power, it's going to be frustrating. But at higher power, where you're kind of expecting that stuff, I don't think it's so bad. But I do want people to have good extra turns. It does suck when you have an extra turn. And it's, I think you said this one time, Mike, sometimes an extra turn is just a growth spiral where you just draw a card and you play a land and you pass. And that is frustrating for me as the extra turn caster. If I am not getting good value out of that extra turn, it just feels like such a waste.

Speaker 2:
[63:39] Yeah, it's almost exactly that. I'm not frustrated with you if you do that or if you win the game. But if you do a bunch of bullshit and then don't actually really advance your board state enough to have like a commanding win or the other thing and you just took an extra like 10 or 15 minutes on each one of those extra turns, then it starts to add up and get frustrating.

Speaker 1:
[63:59] Yeah, extra turns are one of those things in the game that have the potential to eat up time equity in a major way. And I think that can lead to a lot of frustration for people because they're watching other people play a ton. It's comparable to like Seabourn Muse and all that kind of stuff where it's just other people are taking way more game actions over the totality of the game than yourself. But one off extra turn is not quite the same, not quite getting there.

Speaker 3:
[64:25] So it's okay.

Speaker 1:
[64:26] It's not too bad. How do you feel about this one, Mike?

Speaker 4:
[64:28] Well, I'm glad Tony touched on the it getting deflecting swatted point because that was definitely one of the most singularly salty experiences I've had with this card was getting this swatted off me when I was playing Haldeman Paco infinite turns and that was going infinite turns. So presumably Tony should have been fine with it resolving, but I guess not. But I do think that a card like this is, you know, it's high enough salt and that that play pattern of chaining extra turns is high enough salt that the bracket system is partially defined around it. You know, it's an explicit call out in the bracket diagram and in the bracket kind of ethos. So I think when you see something like that, you've got to expect a decent level of salt on it. And I think for people that aren't familiar with the bracket system, this is one thing to be aware of. It's like some of these kind of effects can really get under people's skin. And to Josh's point, sometimes it's just whining and it should be fine and it should be okay. But if you are playing this and then snapping it back and getting three turns when the rest of the table is also getting three turns and you're using half of the oxygen in the room to play out your turn, you're not playing with other people, you're playing with yourself. So maybe find like a slightly different way to approach that.

Speaker 2:
[65:42] What does the Bracket System say on Infinite Turns?

Speaker 3:
[65:45] You're not supposed to chain together extra turns in Bracket 3 or below.

Speaker 4:
[65:48] Yep.

Speaker 2:
[65:49] Gotcha.

Speaker 4:
[65:50] Yep. So that really only becomes a thing at 4.

Speaker 3:
[65:53] And at 4, it feels like Bracket 4 decks are definitely equipped to handle a deck that wants to chain together extra turns.

Speaker 4:
[65:58] Oh, for sure. They're going to run the Swat, they're going to run the Counterspell, they're going to run the way to interact with this on the stack before it's a huge problem.

Speaker 2:
[66:05] They might not use it though. If you whine enough, your Spell Pierce could not work.

Speaker 3:
[66:09] That's a really good point, that's a really good point.

Speaker 4:
[66:13] So we've all aired our thoughts. Where do we think this lands in the top 300 saltiest cards on EDH rec? Get out your Papyrus, get out your Abacus, get out your pen and paper. If you want to be, you know, new school, that's fine. Maybe get a D20 out if you think it's in the top 20. I'll spoil it. It's not in the top 20. So I don't usually give information, but it's not. And get your answers down and let's see where folks land.

Speaker 1:
[66:42] Josh, I don't know how familiar you are with the top 100, 300. Okay.

Speaker 3:
[66:46] I mean, I'm not, I don't have it memorized or anything, but I know what it is.

Speaker 2:
[66:50] You heard it here folks, if he wins, we know why. Yeah, Josh hasn't memorized.

Speaker 4:
[66:57] All right, Josh, you want to kick it off? Where do you think it lands?

Speaker 3:
[67:00] Uh, I'm bad at this because I, yeah, I don't think this is a very salty card in general when you compare it to things like Blood Moon or Stasis or something. I'm going to go middle of the package. Let's say 143.

Speaker 1:
[67:17] Mike, I'm saying 78.

Speaker 2:
[67:19] Oh damn. I said 213, so we've got quite a spread right now.

Speaker 1:
[67:24] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[67:25] Well, he got me thinking he's like, oh, one off, it's not that bad. So I was like, yeah, it's not that bad. All the people who were voting clearly were thinking that way too.

Speaker 4:
[67:33] So. The winner is...

Speaker 2:
[67:42] Josh.

Speaker 4:
[67:43] It is 133. Oh, you're wicked close.

Speaker 1:
[67:48] You're wicked close, that's great.

Speaker 2:
[67:50] All right, clearly memorized. All that, what do you say beforehand?

Speaker 3:
[67:53] I memorized all 300 of them, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[67:56] I was thinking it was higher because I was trying to think of, I mean, I was trying to cheat. I was trying to think of all the extra turn cards we've talked about in the past. I feel like they were all in the top, like 60 or something.

Speaker 3:
[68:06] Yeah, this one I would think would be lower than like Expropriate, because when you lose a game, they played Expropriate and it's like forefront in your mind. But this time warp feels like one that's like a step along the path. But probably other steps occurred that are more present in your mind at the point of them winning than the time warp.

Speaker 4:
[68:21] Yeah, that's a really good point. The time warp didn't kill you. It was just one of the things that led to your eventual demise.

Speaker 3:
[68:29] Yeah, exactly. Whereas Expropriate or Time Stretcher, like we lost to that card.

Speaker 1:
[68:35] Yes, yeah, that's a really good point. It's kind of like the journey of the salt. It's also interesting because the way that these votes are done, you do see a lot of these extra turn spells. So I'm sure there's one extra turn spell, like maybe it's Nexus of Fate, that's the top one. I'm trying to remember how they all stack up in the top 300.

Speaker 3:
[68:54] I would guess Expropriate is the top, but I don't know for sure.

Speaker 4:
[68:57] Yeah, Expropriate is exactly right. It's like 17 on the list.

Speaker 2:
[69:02] It's like super appropriate. Your opponents have the opportunity to misplay on two. They can just be like, yeah, give them an extra turn, it'll be fine.

Speaker 3:
[69:09] And they always misplay, it's crazy.

Speaker 1:
[69:13] Yeah, they do.

Speaker 3:
[69:15] Just give them a thing, you have a chance. If you give them extra turns, you lose, it's over.

Speaker 1:
[69:20] Yeah, they're already going to get one extra turn. Don't give them two more.

Speaker 3:
[69:24] People do not want you to have their stuff, they would rather lose.

Speaker 1:
[69:27] Yeah, literally.

Speaker 4:
[69:29] Interestingly, besides Expropriate, the only other extra turn spell that is higher than this is Time Stretch, which is target player takes two extra turns after this one. So it is very much these non-deterministic ones where it's like, oh, I get a bunch of extra turns, but I don't necessarily get all of the extra turns and take it out from here. I also think this is an interesting card because it's pretty high up on the Salty List, but the decks that we see it in are like Eluge and Storm, Force of Nature or Narset, Yuriko, Vivi, a lot of these cards that sometimes are in CDH pods, but are also very often just kind of high tier fours, high level casual decks where people are willing to bring some of this high power stuff. And sometimes you see decks like that end up in mismatches, which can lead to some salty situations.

Speaker 2:
[70:19] Of decks that can play it, what percentage?

Speaker 4:
[70:22] It's not a super high inclusion rate. This one is in 1.6% of decks that it could be in. So it's not like you're seeing this every day either, which I'm appreciative of. Well, that wraps it up for the salty card of the week. Thanks for playing.

Speaker 1:
[70:37] Thanks, Mike. That was a lovely salty card. And Josh, thank you for hanging out with us on our 200th episode here in The Howling Salt Mine. We really appreciate it, man. This has been a very special episode for us, and we're glad to have you here back as a returning guest, of course.

Speaker 3:
[70:51] Yeah, I'm glad to have me here for the second time. Thank you for giving me my flowers there.

Speaker 4:
[70:57] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[70:58] It was a really big honor to be on your 200th episode, guys. It's quite an accomplishment. I know from experience to, you know, reach the 200 mark. So congratulations.

Speaker 4:
[71:07] Thank you.

Speaker 3:
[71:08] I can't wait. I assume that I'll be the guest for four or 500. So I'll be back at some point. I'm sure.

Speaker 1:
[71:14] Definitely.

Speaker 3:
[71:15] It's a big accomplishment. So yeah, I'm a fan of the show. I like listening to it. Keep doing your salty things. You know, I don't get salty, but it is fun to just hear about salt.

Speaker 4:
[71:24] It is. The variety of flavors. Yeah. It's crazy how we can be going and still hearing new takes on it and still hearing new things that really got to someone. And again, I always expect that we've gotten it all. And 200 and here we are. We're still hearing new stuff.

Speaker 3:
[71:44] Yeah. I have a feeling you're going to be hearing new stuff forever.

Speaker 1:
[71:48] Yeah. Magic players love to whine and new cards are printed every day. That are giving us new reasons to whine.

Speaker 3:
[71:56] Absolutely.

Speaker 1:
[71:58] Well, of course, folks can find you at the Command Zone, watch Game Knights, check out some extra turns. And if they haven't, I mean, they're probably living under a rock, but they probably should. It's excellent content. I don't know if you have anything else to plug though, Josh. Nope.

Speaker 3:
[72:14] That's it. Command Zone, Game Knights, extra turns. Yeah, that's it. We are easy to find. Knights with a K.

Speaker 1:
[72:21] Yes, of course.

Speaker 2:
[72:24] I can see the comments now. I can't find them. I keep searching for Game Knights.

Speaker 3:
[72:30] I think we still pop up even if you type that though.

Speaker 1:
[72:33] I bet you probably do. Yeah. I'd be shocked if you fucking didn't. Well, thanks to all the prospectors out there for tuning in to another episode of The Howling Salt Mine podcast for hanging out with us for our 200th episode. And hey, if you've been here for all 200, good on you. We appreciate our day one listeners. There's like 10 of you. And I think there's a few more day two and day three listeners out there. And we're not sure when these people started listening, but you know we're gonna shout them out, our Salt Shaker tier Patreon members. And this week we have Accidental TPK, Thoughts of Ms. Prime, Rothbox, Saratna Sequoia, Bucky Barnes, Captain Kraus, Clear Brook, Lieutenant Dan MTG to Dan Kong, Gilgamesh, Cosmic Cryptid, Dev JP, Doug's Dad, Bark Bark, Dusty Cupboards, Purr Jojo Senko, Guy Stromling, Pez, Rambing Speed, Sire Speedy, Stormtrooper Jake, Swankub, The Quiet One, The Crimson Chariot, Thumbs 3, Oblio and Daddy Burns. Thank you all for all of your support and thanks to everybody that has supported the show over the years, we really appreciate you. If you want more Howling Salt Mine in your life, check out our Patreon, patreon.com/howlingsaltmine. We've got an awesome Discord community, bonus content every single month. If we do monthly Patreon Game Knights, where you can jam games with us, probably, or other awesome people in the Discord that we have, it's just a great community, a lot of fun. Other ways you can help support the show, send us your salty stories. That is the lifeblood of the show. We need them to keep going. You can go to our website, which is howlingsaltmine.com or thehowlingsaltmine.com and submit there. We've got a form you can fill out, or you can email us directly at thehowlingsaltmine.gmail.com. Check out our merchandise. We've got shirts on Bonfire. We have our play mats on Jank Mats, and we sell custom DragonShield sleeves over on the DragonShield website. You can also use our affiliate code, all one word, all lowercase. Stay salty on DragonShield to get 5% off your purchase. Other ways you can help support us, give us a five-star review on your favorite podcast app of choice, like, comment, subscribe on YouTube, all that kind of stuff. Feed the algorithm. The algorithm loves it and we love it too. It helps new people find the show and it helps the show grow organically. Last but not least, you know we got to shout out our buddy, Devin Burnett, for giving us our beautiful podcast art. If you're ever in Asheville, North Carolina, hit him up and get a tattoo because he's a really cool guy.

Speaker 2:
[74:40] Ten thousand subscribers are buzzed.

Speaker 1:
[74:43] Indeed. Well, Josh, thank you so much for hanging out with us. This was really a pleasure.

Speaker 3:
[74:48] Thanks again, guys, and stay salty.

Speaker 1:
[74:51] You heard them, folks. Probably, if you want to hear an advance cut, we can definitely send you one. I don't know if you care.

Speaker 3:
[75:18] Don't offer that, Sam. Never offer that to anybody. No, I'm good, I'm good.

Speaker 1:
[75:23] Good, because I'll be finishing it on the Wednesday that I'm posting.

Speaker 3:
[75:26] Yeah, exactly. No, I know how it goes.

Speaker 1:
[75:28] I'm going to sing a little song.

Speaker 3:
[75:32] Sing a little ditty, yep.

Speaker 1:
[75:33] Yep, I sing a little parody song every week. It's my own prison that I've trapped myself in.

Speaker 3:
[75:37] I've heard four of them now, yeah. I know, I was thinking, oh man, he's got to do this every episode. That's a big commitment.

Speaker 1:
[75:42] Some are better than others. Some of them people are like, when's the album coming out? And other ones, people were like, you're a little pitchy.

Speaker 2:
[75:48] Yeah, a good try.

Speaker 3:
[75:50] Jimmy and I used to do songs at the beginning of the podcast. We still do when it's the two of us on the podcast, but we didn't have to make up any lyrics or anything. And it would take, we'd spend 15, 20, maybe 30 minutes just figuring out which song we even want to sing. And we're not, we're just singing the song. We're not like writing anything for it. So yeah, no, trust me. When I heard you doing it and still doing it, I was like, 200 episodes, huh?

Speaker 2:
[76:11] We've gotten to a point where folks send us lyrics and song suggestions.

Speaker 4:
[76:15] The crowd sourcing is key.

Speaker 2:
[76:16] Makes it much easier. I think the final thing is, is that we have a bit of a running bit with our guests. Oh yes, we do.

Speaker 1:
[76:25] Yeah. So I mentioned that we have an inside joke with you on the show. So we have a running bit whenever we have a guest on. You might have heard it if you listen to a guest episode. Where basically whenever we ask the questions, we ask, how do you get into magic? What makes you salty? We frame it as if it's this very challenging exam. And we always say, well, if you fail the exam, we do have to turn off your microphone. And unfortunately, you just won't be able to talk for the rest of the episode. And it might have been like 50 episodes ago or 70 episodes ago. One of our guests asked, has that ever happened to anybody? And we were like, yeah, you know, Josh Lee Kwai was on the show one time. Yeah, he was on, we had to delete the episode. So our listeners know that.

Speaker 3:
[77:11] It's nice for y'all to have me back. I'll do better and try and pass the exam.

Speaker 4:
[77:14] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[77:15] Exactly it.