transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

Speaker 2:
[00:05] The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of the speaker and do not necessarily represent the knife or Exactly Right media.

Speaker 1:
[00:12] As a note, we recorded this interview at the end of March. Dusty had been released on parole. And then two days before the launch of this episode, we were notified that Dusty had been arrested for a parole violation. We were not told any more information other than that. We will let you know if we learn more.

Speaker 2:
[00:47] Welcome to The Knife Off Record. I'm Patia Eaton.

Speaker 1:
[00:50] I'm Hannah Smith. Last week, we spoke with Erin Laughman. Erin had been advocating for the release of Dusty Turner, who at the time was serving an 82 year sentence for the 1995 murder of Jennifer Evans.

Speaker 2:
[01:03] If you haven't yet listened to that episode, we suggest going back and listening to that episode before listening to this one. Because in March of 2026, three months after our initial conversation with Erin, Dusty walked out of prison. So today we're speaking with Dusty about his decades long fight for freedom and his new life on the outside.

Speaker 1:
[01:22] Let's get into it. Hi, Dusty. Welcome to The Knife.

Speaker 3:
[01:30] Well, thank you. I appreciate it and I'm glad to be here.

Speaker 2:
[01:33] Yeah, we were so glad to be speaking with you today.

Speaker 1:
[01:37] When this comes out, basically, we will have just aired the episode the week before that we did with Erin. For that episode, we relied on Erin's information as well as we looked at court documents and did research and put the story together. Our audience will have just heard about the murder of Jennifer Evans on June 18th, 1995, and then they will have heard Erin speaking on your behalf and about your long search for justice. She did a great job of walking us through all of that. That interview was in December of 2025. We're now in March of 2026. When we left that interview, you were still in prison. Can you give us an update on where you are now?

Speaker 3:
[02:27] I was released from prison on parole on March 5th. I've been staying in a beautiful place up in Northwestern Virginia, a friend's place, and it's a very large property. And they were so gracious to allow me to stay here. And I plan to be here for just a couple months, and then I'll be returning back to my home state of Indiana.

Speaker 1:
[02:51] And how did it feel to be paroled?

Speaker 3:
[02:55] There were kind of mixed emotions. It's just, number one, it's inadequate. And I hate to say it necessarily like that, because I am grateful, especially to the board members who granted me parole. I'm very grateful, and especially to one specific board member who really had the courage to state publicly that not only should I be granted parole, but that I should never have been in prison to begin with.

Speaker 2:
[03:20] Yeah, I actually was watching that live when it happened, and I thought that was a really striking moment.

Speaker 3:
[03:27] Mm-hmm, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[03:29] How long were you in prison?

Speaker 3:
[03:33] I was in prison for 30 years and nine months. Literally a month ago, I could tell you very specifically the amount of days that I spent in prison. It was like 11,210 days, I think it was, something like that. But since I've been released, I've been really just overwhelmed with just everything. I know it may be hard to comprehend of what it's like to live in that environment for over three decades. Then just all of a sudden, I'm out under the open sky and everything's just so much. It's just a lot coming at me from all different directions and just overwhelming my senses.

Speaker 1:
[04:15] Yeah, I bet it can be overwhelming and good, but also just generally, it's a lot to take in. Even if it's all good, it's just so different probably than the last 30 years.

Speaker 3:
[04:25] Yeah, absolutely. I'm not complaining. I'm not complaining because I'm enjoying every moment out here. But I haven't looked backwards a lot. I'm going to, but I'm just really trying to get my feet on the ground. So it's unbelievable that I'm sitting here and I've not even been out a whole month. And I couldn't recall very specifically how many months I have been in prison, because it was very significant to me the day before I walked out, right? Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[04:53] I bet.

Speaker 3:
[04:54] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[04:55] I want to give people a little more context because they listen to the episode, but it's been a week since they've heard it. So you were sentenced to first-degree murder, is that correct? Abduction with the intent to defile?

Speaker 3:
[05:10] Defile.

Speaker 1:
[05:11] And you were sentenced 82 years in prison, which was notably 10 years longer than Billy Brown was sentenced. And I think that's important to point out the convictions because I want to get into some more specifics about the abduction to defile and that charge, which ended up adding a lot of time. So you were sentenced in, was it 1996?

Speaker 3:
[05:34] Right. Convicted in sentence in 96. I was arrested mid-95.

Speaker 1:
[05:39] Right. Okay. So I just want to get people that background. And then it wasn't even that long. I mean, anytime in prison, I'm sure is quite long feeling. But it was like 1999 when Billy Brown started to spread these rumors and tell people, including his attorney, that he lied. Because a big part of your conviction was his testimony. That he lied and he said that you guys killed Jennifer together and it was his whole plan. And he basically came out and said, No, I did it. I did it. I lied. I drug Dusty into this. And so I think that that's something really to highlight when we start talking about your parole and about your long search to get this overturned or for justice. Because that was 1999. We're in 2026. So 26, 27 years that your innocence has been proclaimed and yet it took a really long time.

Speaker 3:
[06:35] Right. Can I just add that in 1999, as you mentioned, Billy Brown had become a Christian in one of the prisons he was at. And I was later told that he confessed to his family and to his lawyer. His lawyer apparently told him that he needs to be quiet and that he still has a chance to have some kind of reprieve from an appeals process and that he should just keep his mouth shut. And so it was 2002 that I found out that he had confessed to his family and to his lawyer. And then that started a ball rolling. And of course, and you said, profess, you know, my innocence. But from day one, when I told the detectives what happened to Jennifer Evans, that day forward I've just told the truth of what happened. And also for context, Billy Brown felt like that I had broke what was referred to as the seal code by telling the authorities what happened, what he did, and so therefore he felt like he should bring me down with him because I violated that code, as he would say.

Speaker 1:
[07:39] So that was the justification in his mind for lying.

Speaker 3:
[07:42] That was the justification, yeah. So in 2008, we had filed a writ of actual innocence and we went back to the same court in which I was convicted so that the judge there could determine if Billy Brown's confession was truthful, credible specifically in that he acted alone and that I had no role in the murder or in the restraining of the victim was the specific wording. The judge at that court, the circuit court where I was convicted, he ruled that that's what it was, right? That Billy Brown did act alone, that I had no role in the murder or in the restraining of the victim. And so from that ruling led to the Court of Appeals to grant me actual innocence, right? And it was the first time that the Court of Appeals granted someone in Virginia throughout the whole of history, believe it or not. It was the first time that the Court of Appeals granted someone actual innocence. Now, they've overturned cases, plenty of cases in the past, but they've never used that phrase, that this man is actually innocent. So that was a first, but later it was appealed and it went on up to the Supreme Court eventually. My release was overturned on a technicality of a single word, and that word was restrained or restraining. My whole life hung on the balance of that single argument.

Speaker 1:
[09:06] So they were saying or arguing that in theory, you could have abducted her without restraining her.

Speaker 3:
[09:12] The theory at trial was that Jennifer was taken from the parking lot against her will to some other undisclosed location. The theory was created from Billy Brown's story after they told him that I had revealed to the authorities what had happened. His story, and this is what they used as their theory to convict me, was that Jennifer was taken out of the parking lot to some other location undisclosed and killed in some other location. So in 2008, they created a new theory, right? Because this one no longer held up. So it's a fact. It was a fact then, still a fact now, that I had no role in the murder or in any restraining of the victim, that Billy Brown was the sole perpetrator of the murder of Jennifer. Okay. So they created a theory to get around, a loophole to get around those words. And so again, they said, okay, well, it's a fact that Turner did not restrain Jennifer, then maybe a jury still could believe that there was an abduction by deception without the requirement of a restraint. I know that's deep and detailed, but that's what it was.

Speaker 1:
[10:26] It is like getting in the weeds a little bit, but I think it illustrates kind of what you were saying in the beginning about. It's hard to hear that and not feel like there's some agenda or political reason to try to want to keep you in prison and uphold your conviction, because you've been granted at this point the writ of actual innocence. And the only way that can be appealed and the only way to keep you behind bars at that point is this semantic argument about what restraint means. And at that point, you have to wonder if we're really seeking justice.

Speaker 3:
[11:03] Yeah. Well, and you see in other cases, and I looked at a lot of cases in Virginia and elsewhere of wrongfully convicted people and how they want to hold on to those convictions, right? The states want to hold on to those convictions and go through pains to not admit faults, right? But there's also an idea that, kind of a macrocosmic idea of the justice system, that it almost requires confidence in the justice system. People need to be confident in the justice system. So when these cases of wrongful convictions and justices arise, it diminishes people's confidence in the justice system as a whole, right? And that's not good for, you know, for the government and for the justice system. It's not good.

Speaker 2:
[11:51] I think that's really insightful. And, you know, having spent decades working to prove your innocence and then getting the writ of actual innocence and researching these cases where people remained in prison who shouldn't have been, how did you hold on to hope during that time?

Speaker 3:
[12:15] Yeah, I mostly held on to hope during that time. Mostly I did. You know, early on, I was extremely naïve, having no previous experience with the judicial system whatsoever. I was a person who dedicated my life to the service of the country. And I was very much prepared to give my life in service for this country. So I assumed a lot of basic concepts that Americans have always held dear. One is that there is always justice, you know, and that justice is part of the fabric of this country. And again, I was young, I was naïve. Even after being convicted, I still assumed that just over the horizon, that the truth would come out, right? Just over the horizon, surely within another six months or another year, they're going to figure it out or something's going to happen, there's going to be appeals, something's going to arise to show what the truth of what happened. And so I wouldn't be spending, you know, eternity in prison. That hope was just always over the horizon. It was never within grasp. It was in 2008, 2009, when they did grant me the writ of actual innocence. And my family and friends were popping champagne and celebrating. They knew I was coming home within a matter of just days or weeks at most. And then that, you know, is like a roller coaster ride. We were up on the high and then we just fell straight down, right? And it was starting over again.

Speaker 2:
[13:45] Yeah. I mean, I can imagine that would be just a swift drop to see writ of actual innocence and then to be in the same place. I'm wondering, your family was advocating for you and there to support you. When did this sort of group of supporters for you really start to grow?

Speaker 3:
[14:13] I think social media really helped in that. The release of a documentary about my case was extremely helpful, because it opened up my story to a whole new demographic that never would have had the opportunity to learn about it. So I've had supporters over the years, but it's difficult to fight uphill against such a juggernaut. This complex system, it's like it only shows defeats, and it's like there's never victory, it's the way it seems. And so all the way, fast forward to, why was I having any mixed emotions upon being granted parole? Because one might assume that I should only have the emotion of joy, and the emotion of humiliation. And yet, there's still a part of me that was kind of sad. Not sad that I'm getting out, of course. I couldn't wait to be with my family and friends, and I've enjoyed every moment since I've been out. But parole is not justice for me. It is inadequate, right? It's not justice. I'm still convicted of two crimes that I did not commit, and we're going to continue fighting.

Speaker 2:
[15:25] So your ultimate goal is for those convictions themselves to be overturned.

Speaker 3:
[15:31] Absolutely.

Speaker 1:
[15:32] I want to talk a little bit about those charges and maybe the path forward and the fight to try to get them overturned. In order to do that, I want to reflect a little bit about the trial. From your perspective now, looking back on everything, when did things start to go wrong for you in a way that led to this murder charge and this abduction charge?

Speaker 3:
[16:01] Oh, goodness. Where did they start to go wrong? You could say that it started to go wrong when I was having a normal evening late in June and I was 20 years old, and I was with a young lady, a super nice intelligence, wonderful young lady and everything was normal. Then this monster creates extreme trauma and tragedy in just a blink of an eye. So that's when things truly obviously went wrong. But when we're talking about the convictions, I'm not sure where the beginnings of how it went wrong. I mean, it snowballed. Once they charged me with the crimes that they did, it was like they just from that point, they just had to figure out how to create the evidence and the story and the theory and to create all that around how to convict me. Then a defendant such as myself are relying upon whatever attorney we happen to get. I'm not from Virginia. I knew no one here. I've had no prior experience. I didn't even think I needed an attorney. That's how naive I was. I literally didn't even think I needed an attorney, right?

Speaker 1:
[17:17] Yeah. And you talked about the prosecutions argument and how from your perspective that came together. They got Billy's testimony and charged you and ran with this story and then sort of built the case around that story. This ended up being very much circumstantial trial. It really hinged on Billy Brown's testimony, which we know ended up being a lie, which he's come out and said is a lie. The strongest argument from the state has fallen through the floor because Billy Brown has come out and said none of this was true. Are those kinds of things, arguments that you're building with your team?

Speaker 3:
[17:58] Yeah, those and others. But you know, going back to the trial, what struck me certainly at the time was how they could twist things to make them seem so negative, right?

Speaker 1:
[18:11] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[18:11] And every little thing, they twist it and then they present it to the jury. Things that were innocent, totally innocent.

Speaker 2:
[18:19] Are you able to highlight any specific moments where that happened?

Speaker 3:
[18:24] Sure. Here's one example. I'll give you a couple. And they're kind of military related. So one is, and it's so silly, it's just silly. But when I was in Puerto Rico doing some advanced dive training with the military, afterwards, the instructors asked us to write an evaluation of the program. And he said, listen, this is for the Master Chief or the whomever. So, you know, basically suggested you can make it kind of comical, right? It's not all serious. And so I wrote an evaluation, which included just some lighthearted humor, right? And the prosecuting attorney has got a hold of this evaluation and presented it as if it's like something serious or real or just horrible, you know? It's the narrative. And so the prosecuting attorneys, and maybe the defense attorneys too, but it's like a game. It's nothing but a game. And how do you win? How do you present things, even if you have to take them out of context? It doesn't matter, right? We need to present them to win. And so that's what was going on. I was subject to a lot of that in the trial. And it's, like you said, it's circumstantial. It's all just meaningless.

Speaker 2:
[19:35] When you were at the trial, did you think listening to the prosecution and listening to your defense, where did you think the jury would land?

Speaker 3:
[19:47] I thought that they would absolutely vote not to convict me of those crimes, but to likely convict me of the one underlying crime that I was guilty of. I truly assumed that they would rule, not guilty on the two crimes that I was actually convicted of, but to declare me guilty of the one crime that I was guilty of, which was accessory after the fact of the felony, right? And which the punishment for that at the time carried up to 12 months in jail. And I was guilty of that. I am guilty of that. So therefore I assumed that that's what they would find me guilty of.

Speaker 1:
[20:29] Yeah. I'm glad you said that because, you know, I want to talk about Jennifer Evans for just a moment. I think that in wrongful conviction cases, they're so complex because what happens is that you have a victim in an original case and then you create another victim by sending them to prison for something they didn't do, right? And I think we're all, you know, we should be able to understand and hold space for both of those victims. And sometimes people have a hard time doing that, you know. They conflate maybe your release with being unjust for Jennifer Evans or somehow, you know, as not justice for her, which I understand the emotional response to that. And I also think it's really important not to skate over or minimize the harm that was done to her. She was murdered, the harm that was done to her family and friends. It's horrible. But as I said, I also believe that you're a victim because you were wrongfully convicted, you know, and so it's important to like be mindful of both. But I'm curious, you know, the many years that you were in prison, I imagine you reflected a lot on what happened that evening. And what happened to Jennifer? And I'm just wondering like what that reflection has looked like for you when you think about Jennifer and her family.

Speaker 3:
[21:51] Yeah. So I'll preface this with the fact that one of the parole board members asked me on behalf of the Evans family and the loved ones of Jennifer, that I not speak about her, right?

Speaker 1:
[22:05] Okay.

Speaker 3:
[22:06] And I think that that comes from a place of the deep sorrow and harm that her family has endured and continue to endure. And so I try to walk that fence of respecting, first of all, I'm going to, of course, respect their family and loved ones. Because as you pointed out, what happened to her is a 100 percent complete travesty. There's no way to overstate that, right? And for me, in the position that I was in, it was difficult to kind of fully grieve that which I experienced, which was the loss of the life of a young lady at the hands of someone who I had been training with for a year and a half. And so in that environment and under the conditions and being wrongfully convicted, it was and still is kind of difficult to fully grasp or grieve the loss of her life. I don't know if that makes sense.

Speaker 1:
[23:11] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[23:12] Yeah. But also again, I do want to make sure that I'm respecting the wishes of her loved ones.

Speaker 1:
[23:19] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[23:19] I would love to speak about her more, but I'm not going to because of that. I would just say that she was a completely innocent young lady who did not, obviously, did not deserve any harm to come up upon her.

Speaker 1:
[23:33] Yeah. No, I appreciate. I think that's very thoughtful the way that you've spoken about it. It also makes sense to me that this experience is really layered for you because this changed the course of your life as well. I don't know if this is a rude question to ask, but I'm just curious if you ever ended up speaking with Billy Brown again or saw him.

Speaker 3:
[23:58] No, it's not a rude question. Back in 96, I saw him walking through, we'll just say the hallway, I guess, of the jail. Then in 2008, I was in the courtroom when he testified for about four hours on the stand. I sat there and endured and watched him testify in 2008, and that's it. So he has written maybe two letters, I think, to my mother, begging for forgiveness. I think that's about it. I haven't had no direct conversations or communications with him at all, and I don't intend to ever. I will be seeking ways to at least have my own voice heard on the opposition of any possibility of parole for him.

Speaker 1:
[24:46] You feel like even though he's come out and testified that he lied and taken accountability for that, you still feel like you don't see enough remorse for his initial actions for the murder that he committed.

Speaker 3:
[24:59] Not whatsoever. No, he's not. I don't know if he has it in him. I often refer to him as a psychopath. Of course, I can't truly diagnose him, but a sociopath, a psychopath, I don't really know, but I don't feel like he's fully internalized. I could say this because, again, seeing him on the stand back in 2008, and then I've talked to a lot of guys who have been around him in prison. I've been to 10 different institutions, prisons in Virginia, and some of those I've been to more than once. I've moved all around the state in these different prisons. They, of course, always kept he and I separate, so they would never put us together in a prison environment. But I came across many, many, many people who had been around him in prison, and they would share with me their perspective on him and how he carries himself and so forth. And I've known of other people that have spoken to him directly, whether on the phone or personally, and these are people on the outside speaking to him, right? And so this is where I've come to that conclusion that he hasn't fully internalized the impacts of his actions.

Speaker 2:
[26:15] In what ways did that come across to you in those conversations with people who had been interacting with Billy?

Speaker 3:
[26:22] Yeah. And some of them kind of might be subtle, but the things that he has expressed, again, suggesting to me that a lot of his whole psychology is about himself. He's self-centered, he's self-focused, and things that he does or says are all about, you know, how it impacts himself or how, you know, it could better himself. All the things that I've heard concerning him over the last couple of decades suggest that there's no change in that mindset that he has.

Speaker 2:
[26:55] Do you recall any specific moments or things that were said to you that he had said that make you feel this way?

Speaker 3:
[27:02] So I know that more recently he has spoken to a media person. I don't want to name names, but a media person. And his concerns that he expressed were really invalid. And they were again all about himself, thoughts about parole and some of these things.

Speaker 1:
[27:27] Instead of using that opportunity to say, I'm so regretful for my actions or I've caused so much harm. I took this person away from their loved ones. He instead decided to talk about his own suffering or something. Is that what you mean?

Speaker 3:
[27:42] Absolutely. Yeah, you've hit the nail on the head. And that's not just this one time. This is from my understanding, like every time. See, I've gone through courses of victim advocacy and victim impact courses. I created Offender Rehabilitation Program that is victim focused. And it has a lot of elements of restorative justice principles and practices. And so, I've been able to really understand what it means to be victimized, to be harmed. And so, since I have, I've seen that, again, going back to Billy Brown, that which he has not put forth the effort and the work to do, which he should be the one doing those things. I was going through these courses to help, again, create a program that would help with the accountability and rehabilitation of incarcerated people and people who've harmed others. And truly, he should be doing those things, you know? He should be really figuring out how his actions have truly impacted on the wide scale, all the people, you know? All of Jennifer's family and friends and all of the community there, and all of my family and my friends and my community. And he's not really repented for all that.

Speaker 2:
[29:01] So, you were released on parole March 5th, so earlier this month, is that right?

Speaker 3:
[29:08] That's correct.

Speaker 2:
[29:09] I mean, after 30, almost 31 years, can you kind of paint the picture? What did it feel like to walk out of prison?

Speaker 3:
[29:21] Well, the first feeling, and describing all of this, I would probably, unfortunately, use the term overwhelmed way too often. But when I walked out of the prison, I was surprised, I guess, to first feel kind of a weight. You would think that the weight would be lifted off of my shoulders, right? Walking out. But it almost felt like this huge weight of just the openness, the sky, and the trees, and everything around was just kind of bearing down upon me, and I literally had a hard time breathing. So I had to kind of catch my breath, and walking out, my first thoughts was to find my mother, and I knew that she was out there waiting upon me somewhere. She's been fighting alongside me for 31 years, and in a lot of ways, she has been incarcerated with me during all this time. I speak about her first, but a lot of my family members and friends too have experienced a lot of these hardships with me. Though I was the one physically behind the concrete and steel, they too were going through ordeals that were directly related to my incarceration. The warden himself wanted to walk me out, and he was a good guy, and he wanted to make sure he was the one walking me out of the prison. I was literally in a holding cell, and I thought that it was probably going to be another 15 or 20 minutes before I actually walked out, and he just pops in and he says, all right, let's go. I'm like, right now? He's like, yeah, come on. You're not trying to stay, are you? So we walked out side by side, and I shook his hand as I continued on into the parking lot. Had some meaty people jump out of their car with questions and cameras and stuff, and I didn't expect that right there in the parking lot. But I was able to see and hug and embrace my family, and then also my very close friends and advocates. They were all there for me, and it was awesome really that all these people were there, and we all convened a little later in the evening at a beautiful place out in nature, where it was quiet, and we just had a big feast, and everybody just enjoyed everybody's company, and everybody was extremely joyous.

Speaker 2:
[31:42] I imagine that even just food outside of prison, like the-

Speaker 3:
[31:49] Yeah, first it was the smells, right? The sights, I guess the sights were a lot, and then it was the smells were just like coming at me from everywhere, and the colors, and the sights, and then my mother and my family had brought these baskets full of fruit and nuts, and all kinds of foods that of course I haven't seen in decades, right there on the spot, and then getting into a vehicle and driving was quite unnerving. I was in a passenger seat, but I felt like we were going 150 miles an hour down the road. I literally was bracing myself with my hands, and that was a bit unnerving.

Speaker 2:
[32:30] I mean, just cars now are probably a lot different.

Speaker 3:
[32:34] Yeah. It's like being in a cockpit of a jet airplane or something.

Speaker 2:
[32:38] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[32:39] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[32:41] So your landing place has been a friend's property in a rural area. What are your days look like now?

Speaker 3:
[32:48] Every day is a little different. This has been a blessing as far as this opportunity that my friends have provided to be in this very rural area, because it's extremely tranquil. I don't think that one could be in any more tranquil spot in the world. That's what I feel anyway. So fortunate to be in that position, this position because things are still overwhelming. So I'm getting over some of the things. I'm able to walk into a grocery market or I walk into a Walmart once or twice now. There's been a couple of times where it's just been too many people and I just got to get out of the building. It's just kind of overwhelming, but I'm learning a little bit of technology, little baby steps at a time with the phone and such. But it's a super tranquil. I'm fortunate in this respect that I have a lot of resources that a person typically getting out of prison wouldn't have. I recognize that. I made some friends, a lot of friends on the inside. So even though I was wrongfully convicted, I was still a convict, right? And I lived as a convict. And I had to endure nothing different than what all the other convicts endure on a daily basis, the struggles, the hardships, the inhumanity, and the treatment. I endured it no more or less than all those around me. Just so happens that I was wrongfully convicted. And I'm not the only one whom I knew. I knew a couple of other guys that were wrongfully convicted. And some have since been exonerated. And maybe a couple haven't. But my daily existence out here, I do have a job on a farm. It's a sustainable beef and pork farm, also owned by good friends and real good people, extremely flexible. They allow me to work when I can. And they understand that there's things I have to do, whether it's setting up a bank account or trying to get my driver's license or today I was in a whole different city at a car dealership looking at vehicles to purchase a vehicle. These things are things that I have to do. And so fortunately, I'm not in a position where I have to be working also an eight hour a day or something whilst also trying to get my feet on the ground.

Speaker 1:
[35:09] Yeah, it's interesting to hear you walk us through all of that. I mean, it makes sense, but I think it's not something that I think about a lot, most people think about a lot, like all the practical things you would have to do when you are released from prison, like a driver's license, you know, like getting all of these things set up. You know, maybe you don't have an idea about what the future holds, but I'm curious, you know, what your hopes and dreams are for where you're going to, what you're going to be doing.

Speaker 3:
[35:35] Yeah. And so in the long term, I don't know. I really don't know. And what I am doing and starting to do as I get my feet on the ground, is I'm going to be working with justice-involved veterans. It's kind of a niche type of work, but I have a good friend in California who is the Director of Veterans Healing Veterans. His name is Ron Self, great guy. He has also experienced as a justice-involved veteran himself. And I've been working with him now for a few years. I developed a therapeutic horticulture program for veterans specifically, which the program is being implemented right now in prisons in California. So I'm going to be working with Ron and with the Veterans Healing Veterans Organization. And I've been told that there may be a handful of veterans who may be wrongfully convicted across the United States. And when I say a handful, I was told of five or six people specifically that are potentially wrongfully convicted and were veterans. And so I'm going to be in the near term, I'm going to be kind of researching these folks and to see if indeed they might be wrongfully convicted. And then if so, how is it that we might be able to help them?

Speaker 2:
[37:01] That's great. Awesome. You know, I have to say, Dusty, watching the parole hearing live when it was happening, it was anxious for me to be watching it. And I can only imagine how it must have felt for you all of these years. And I'm so glad that you are getting a chance at a new chapter of life. And I think that you'll do something really great with it.

Speaker 3:
[37:30] Well, I appreciate that. And I hope you're right.

Speaker 1:
[37:32] We really appreciate you taking the time.

Speaker 2:
[37:34] I guess I have one last question. Maybe just to end on a lighter note, or I'm just curious. What is your favorite food to eat now that you can eat whatever you want?

Speaker 3:
[37:45] So I was craving so badly. This might surprise you, perhaps, but I was just craving so badly meat, real meat. My sweet tooth was diminished over the years. So I didn't crave the sweets, although I do enjoy ice cream a lot. I do love chocolate. But my craving was just for real food. My mother's home cooked food. First night, a friend come down from New York, and he literally brought New York strips. We had ribeye, New York strips, and some other stuff. Every day I'm eating things that I haven't eaten in decades, and I'm enjoying every single bit of it.

Speaker 2:
[38:27] Well, good. I'm glad to hear it. Well, thank you so much, Dusty.

Speaker 3:
[38:31] Okay. Well, I appreciate you guys, and thanks for having me.

Speaker 1:
[38:38] So glad we were able to connect with Dusty.

Speaker 2:
[38:40] Yeah. It's like this strange, bittersweet feeling of like, oh, this story has a little bit of a happy ending, but then it's not happy. I mean, it's like, obviously nothing can bring back Jennifer Evans, and Dusty has also spent almost 31 years behind bars, which is just an enormous chapter of his life.

Speaker 1:
[39:04] Yeah. There's no sparkly ending. It's just maybe better than it could have been. It is definitely better than it could have been, especially for Dusty.

Speaker 2:
[39:13] Right. Because a lot of people never get that chance once they are in prison.

Speaker 1:
[39:18] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[39:19] You know, speaking with someone who has been released on parole but has serious convictions, murder, abduction, and so in being paroled, we learned that he had to present something called, and this is standard for everyone, but his conditions are more specific because of his convictions.

Speaker 1:
[39:40] Right. Like I imagine if someone is on parole, the rules that they have to follow on parole are different if they've committed a violent crime versus not, I would guess.

Speaker 2:
[39:51] Yeah. And Dusty, so part of the home plan that he and his support system had to present involved housing, finances, transportation, work, all of these things to help him reintegrate into society and make sure he was going to be in a place that he could be safe and be successful on the outside after 30 years. Talking about relearning things that you did before, like driving or-

Speaker 1:
[40:21] So many things.

Speaker 2:
[40:22] So many things. Think of the change in technology. That's the obvious one.

Speaker 1:
[40:26] It was interesting to hear him talk about getting in a car and how scary that was.

Speaker 2:
[40:30] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[40:31] Because I guess you wouldn't spend a lot of time in a vehicle. Maybe if you had to be transported, you would be in a van, but probably just not that often. Then suddenly you're in a little car zooming on the freeway. That would be scary.

Speaker 2:
[40:45] It would be scary. Even to think of, if you're a little kid and you go from a car seat to, you get to sit in the front someday, it still feels like, whoa.

Speaker 1:
[40:54] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[40:54] Then he went 31 years. I think he compared modern-day cars to a spacecraft, which I loved that.

Speaker 1:
[41:04] I feel like it was, who was it? I'm going to get this wrong. Was it my great-grandmother? There was someone in the family who, during that time period where it was a transition from horse and carriage to vehicles, who just was like, nope, never, never get in a car. This is crazy. Who would invent this?

Speaker 2:
[41:27] I mean, I actually love that take because as a horse person, let me tell you, they're not always that reliable.

Speaker 1:
[41:34] Yeah. We're safe.

Speaker 2:
[41:36] We're safe. I mean, wow.

Speaker 1:
[41:38] But they don't go as fast as- They're not going 80 miles an hour.

Speaker 2:
[41:41] They're way easier to bail off of, you know? Like I don't want to jump out of my car. I've bailed off of many horses many times.

Speaker 1:
[41:49] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[41:50] But neither one sounds fun to me.

Speaker 1:
[41:52] No.

Speaker 2:
[41:52] They both hurt. Yeah, that's an interesting take. Like just absolutely not.

Speaker 1:
[41:57] Just won't be doing that. I don't know that it's going to last, this technology, this invention.

Speaker 2:
[42:01] Yeah. Wow.

Speaker 1:
[42:02] But it reminded me that a little bit because coming out into the world, him talking about everything was so overwhelming, and even the good stuff, which makes sense to me, that it would just be so much sensory input after 30 years.

Speaker 2:
[42:19] Walking into a grocery store, having all those kinds of choices. On Dusty's team, his team of supporters has a social media page and they posted a clip of him walking down a grocery store aisle, and he notices the price of Top Ramen today. I mean, it's like, holy cow.

Speaker 1:
[42:38] Is Top Ramen just that package of ramen?

Speaker 2:
[42:40] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[42:40] Wait, how much is it, like $1.20?

Speaker 2:
[42:42] Yeah. Well, in LA, I think where he was, it was $0.75. And I was like, oh.

Speaker 1:
[42:48] But maybe it used to be $0.10 or something? That's wild.

Speaker 2:
[42:51] Yeah, wild. And I mean, he is experiencing that feeling probably all the time, if he's not at his house. And he also acknowledged his luck and his privilege to have a place to stay and someone to employ him. And he talked about what those opportunities mean for someone in his position. It's not like most people released on parole who have been convicted of a violent crime, whether they have always proclaimed their innocence or not, are immediately met with a safe place to land.

Speaker 1:
[43:25] Yeah. Or any kind of resources.

Speaker 2:
[43:27] Or any kind of resources.

Speaker 1:
[43:29] Yeah, it was interesting talking to him. You know, I could see how people might expect him, and he kind of acknowledged this, to just literally only feel gratitude. Like, oh, I'm so grateful to be out. And while he acknowledged he is very grateful. He also was just realistic about the fact that he still doesn't feel like he has justice in the way that he wants it. He would love for his conviction to be overturned, because he was paroled, right? This means it's still on his record. And as you were talking about earlier, this means that he still has all of these rules he has to follow under his parole. So, you know-

Speaker 2:
[44:11] That are very restrictive.

Speaker 1:
[44:12] Yeah, so it's not like he can just do whatever he wants, live wherever he wants. He has a lot of things. He has to check in with someone really regularly. I think that he said that-

Speaker 2:
[44:23] Travel restrictions.

Speaker 1:
[44:24] Travel restrictions. They could drop by his house at any time. And I don't know how long that goes on. Do you remember?

Speaker 2:
[44:30] I don't remember, but I know he will eventually, he said, be able to return to Indiana, his home state, and he's looking forward to that. But, you know, also he's wearing the title of murderer.

Speaker 1:
[44:42] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[44:43] For as long as he has these convictions.

Speaker 1:
[44:45] It's on his record.

Speaker 2:
[44:46] It's on his record. And that means something to him, as I think it would to everyone who had said they were innocent. And so I understand, yeah, those mixed emotions. And if there's one thing, like speaking with so many different kinds of people who have found themselves going through the criminal justice system, or even just knowing someone who has shown me, it's that so many things can be true at the same time. There can be this incredible loss of this young woman, Jennifer Evans, this incredible pain that her family probably still feels, or anyone who's lost a loved one in a violent way still feels. But it can also be true that we got it wrong in the trial, and that there was an additional victim for that reason. And from my perspective, Dusty Turner is that additional victim. He should have done time for accessory after the fact. He did help move her body. Yes. And he is guilty of that. He's guilty of that.

Speaker 1:
[45:44] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[45:45] I think it's also these conversations that we are in all the time for the work has shown me that you can think all day long how you would react to a situation. But until you're in that situation, you really don't know.

Speaker 1:
[45:57] Yeah. Because we've had a few episodes lately that people have been given longer sentences than maybe they should have been. Or there's questions about was that just? We've talked about juveniles getting sentenced to life or to really long sentences. And I think we try to always explain this. But sometimes we do get people reacting that maybe we're not giving enough empathy toward the victims or somehow overlooking the victims. And that's never where our head is at all. As you said, not only is it possible, but I think it's required that we look at things in a way where we understand that it's complex. I always go back to one of our really early episodes, Jennifer Thompson, and something she said to us was that, putting the wrong person in prison is never justice. And that's so true. I think that it makes sense that if something horrible is done, like someone's murdered, that the people who love them or anyone who has empathy for the fact that they lost their life can feel this really intense emotion and this sense of injustice and this feeling that someone has to pay. And that is totally understandable. But someone, anyone, pain is actually not justice, right? The person who's responsible, pain, and serving their time in a way that makes sense for the crime committed, that's justice.

Speaker 2:
[47:30] Right. And if someone is convicted of a murder that they actually were not responsible for, that is an injustice. And it is sad. And not only, you know, Dusty mentioned this in our conversation, what this put his family through. His family lost access to him for 30 years. And that was devastating for his mother and exhausting to fight this battle with him for decades trying to find a path to freedom. And yeah, it's like, it's not a comparison of three decades behind bars to someone who is a victim of a homicide. It's not a comparison at all. It's just saying two things can be true at once. And no amount of punishing someone for a murder that they did not commit is helpful to any of us. I'm reading a book right now that we're going to talk about in a future episode. But I learned something interesting reading this book that made me think of this case. And I don't know if this is exactly what happened here. Maybe it's a part of what happened. Of course, there's so many variables. But the majority of judges were prosecutors before they were judges.

Speaker 1:
[48:42] Yeah. I've actually never really thought about that.

Speaker 2:
[48:45] Yeah. So they were prosecutors before they were judges. And so there's this programming that the prosecution would then resonate with them. I can't quantify that in some super scientific way. But I find it hard to believe there's no correlation there. Like if someone's telling me about their work in podcasting, I'm going to understand where they're coming from. And maybe if you were a former prosecutor and now you're a judge, and you have this prosecutor coming at you like a prosecutor, you're probably thinking, yeah, that's what I would have said. That's what I would have said.

Speaker 1:
[49:22] You would hope that they would be able to be impartial, right? That's the idea. But I see what you're saying because if they spent the former part of their career fighting against public defenders or defense attorneys, then it would be probably easier for them to relate to or be on the side of prosecutors. It's something that judges should hopefully be like actively working against in themselves. And also, why don't we have more public defenders that become judges?

Speaker 2:
[49:49] I know. It's a great question. And I think we're probably going to have it answered in a future episode.

Speaker 1:
[49:54] Okay. Exciting.

Speaker 2:
[49:55] Yeah. And most people are good. A lot of people are good and they want to do the right thing. But we can all have inherent bias buried deep within us, informed by our entire history that we're not even aware of. Even when we're fighting against it. I mean, we see that all the time. And yeah, anyway, so it just made me think about this.

Speaker 1:
[50:17] Big philosophical thoughts and questions today.

Speaker 2:
[50:20] Yeah. Just going to tack on another 40 minutes here.

Speaker 1:
[50:24] I mean, yeah, it's, I think talking with someone like Dusty and thinking about a case like this, it definitely tends to make us think about things like that.

Speaker 2:
[50:33] Yeah. I mean, I'm 37 and thinking about 31 years gone.

Speaker 1:
[50:38] It's like, you'd be, you'd only have six years.

Speaker 2:
[50:41] Six years of life. Yeah. I mean, maybe that's like a silly way to think of it.

Speaker 1:
[50:45] No, but it's a long time.

Speaker 2:
[50:47] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[50:47] A really long time. And now he's, you know, 50s in his 50s and kind of like starting over with his life. And I wish him the best.

Speaker 2:
[50:56] Me too. Thank you guys for listening. We will be back next week. If you have a story for us, we would love to hear it. Our email is theknifeatexactlyrightmedia.com or you can follow us on Instagram at The Knife Podcast or blueskyatthenifepodcast.

Speaker 1:
[51:13] This has been an Exactly Right production hosted and produced by me, Hannah Smith and me, Patia Eaton.

Speaker 2:
[51:19] Our producers are Tom Breifogel and Alexis Amorosi.

Speaker 1:
[51:22] This episode was mixed by Tom Breifogel.

Speaker 2:
[51:24] Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.

Speaker 1:
[51:26] Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.

Speaker 2:
[51:29] Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.

Speaker 1:
[51:30] Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.