transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] The following podcast is a Dear Media production. Hi, I'm Dr. Will Cole. Wellness is a sacred art, and you are the masterpiece. This is The Art Of Being Well. What's up, and welcome to The Art Of Being Well. Guys, my thoughts on most of the longevity space, longevity things for you to try or buy or do. Some of it's great based on science, things that I've seen move the needle for our telehealth patients as far as their labs and their lives are concerned, how they feel. And then some are really just hyperbole. It's just like hyperbolic, oversensationalized waste of your time and money. Similar to even like protein, like anything that's longevity or protein, these sort of trends, they come and go. The truth is somewhere in the middle. What's the context? What's going to actually improve your life and how you feel? And as far as longevity, this promise for something in the future, okay, there's exciting research around health span and improving health span and living a longer, healthier, thriving life. I love that, right? But if something improves your life in the future, it should also impact how you feel right now. Or said another way, let's add life to your years, not just years to your life. It should be both and not either or here. And that's why I've been working on for the past few years and it's finally out into the world. Longevity RX, it's a targeted protocol line that's designed to support these hallmarks of aging that research shows is the cause of why we have poor health span and we have chronic disease, we have brain fog and fatigue, and we're not thriving. Things like mitochondrial dysfunction, cellular senescence, these zombie cells, these that are impervious to apoptosis, cell death, they don't die. That's why they're called zombie cells and they promote these pro-inflammatory cytokines. And of course, chronic inflammation, another hallmark of aging. Gut dysbiosis, I've been talking about gut health for years, guys, this is a hallmark of aging. So, Longevity RX is addressing these hallmarks of aging that research shows. That's why people are not thriving. They're not adding life to the years and years to their life. So we have products like the cellular hydration sticks, which uses whole food, electrolyte-rich foods, stem cell protein, which is regenerative organic, probiotic trillium, which is the first prebiotic, probiotic, postbiotic and parabiotic, or what are called ghost probiotics. There's a lot of exciting science dealing with the gut immune axis, the gut inflammatory axis to improve gut health and inflammation. Live 120 is 30 plus exotic superfoods that enhance these mitochondrial pathways and might multiply in MAG18. That's target mitochondrial energy and cellular calm and regulation in our nervous system. So if you want to learn more about the LongevityRx line, head on over to drwillcole.com right now. That's drwillcole.com. Head on over to the shop and you can see the entire LongevityRx line. All right, let's get to today's guest, shall we? You're going to learn so much today, guys. Her name is Jessica Maguire. Jessica is a renowned physiotherapist and groundbreaking Vegas nerve researcher who is at the forefront of nervous system regulation. Her international bestseller, The Nervous System Reset, has established her as the definitive voice in helping individuals overcome dysregulation. Jessica's teachings represent an important paradigm shift in understanding their brain-body connection. She distills over two decades plus of rigorous studies, groundbreaking research, which we get into all the cool studies today, and proven clinical experience into practical, actionable frameworks that have transformed thousands of lives worldwide. Let's get right to it. This is Jessica Maguire's Art Of Being Well. Jessica, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 2:
[04:11] Thank you, Will. I was really excited to be here and chat to you.

Speaker 1:
[04:14] Oh my gosh. I'm so excited to nerd out. So we talk a lot about nervous system regulation. It's a central part for our telehealth patients, and we integrate tools that are needed in this area, but we don't, I haven't had a chance to talk to an expert like yourself in such great length and depth, so I'm excited to get in the weeds. Nerd out. You're up for this challenge?

Speaker 2:
[04:37] Yes, definitely.

Speaker 1:
[04:39] Okay, so let's start with just, I guess, your background. How did you get into this space, just to set the stage for people?

Speaker 2:
[04:45] Yeah, sure. So back in 2017, I had a clinic, and I was working a lot with patients with chronic health conditions. So my background comes from physiotherapy, but a lot of my work had been in neurology as well, with stroke patients, those with brain injuries too, but I had patients coming to see me with ongoing pain, and it would present like a cluster with gut issues, insomnia, and I was feeling frustrated in how I communicated this to them, without making them feel like this is all in your head, and trying to tie that really clear link between emotional symptoms or emotional stress and physical symptoms. So I decided I was going to take a break from treating and close down my clinic and really go into the research on what I didn't quite know was missing, but look further into the communication between the brain and the body. At that time, when I was getting ready to go, unfortunately, I lost my older brother. So it was a time where I really experienced a lot of ups and downs in my own nervous system. So I took a year to look into a lot of the research on things like vagus nerve stimulation, interoception, brain body communication, neuroplasticity, and how that could be applied in a way that would support people who'd been through chronic and traumatic stress and whose nervous system was swinging up to the highs of anxiety and overwhelm and having those physical symptoms, but also the people who were like down and shut down, freeze, collapse, and dissociation too. So it was quite a pivotal time that led to the work that I now do.

Speaker 1:
[06:39] I'm sorry to hear about your brother. What happened? If you don't mind me asking.

Speaker 2:
[06:43] No, no, that's okay. So Sam had struggled for a while, a lot with his own mental health, and unfortunately he ended his own life.

Speaker 1:
[06:53] Yeah. I mean, nothing can prepare you for that.

Speaker 2:
[06:58] No, the shock was profound, and Sam was the type of person that didn't want to worry anybody else. He was my older brother and very protective and caring. So I think for a lot of people, there wasn't an understanding that he was even struggling. So it was a really big shock for my family and I. Right.

Speaker 1:
[07:17] Obviously, I have a similar story in the sense of, I am in this space, this is what I do. I help people with these tools. But it's one thing to go through it and help other people. It's another thing to go through it and not always, like then you have to be your own doctor, right? And practice the things that you teach. I remember a few years ago, I wrote Gut Feelings, which is about this topic, sort of bi-directional relationship between the gut and feelings and vagus nerve and somatic practices and dealing with the physiological and the psychological intersection, the bi-directional relationship between both. Okay. So I was so excited about this book, right? It's all about tapping into that parasympathetic. On the eve of the book coming out, my dad died suddenly in a car accident. And it was, I know it's not the same. I'm not comparing. I'm just saying sudden death is never easy, right? And I had to practice what I teach, not just to telehealth patients, but in the book on the eve of book coming up, which as you know, when you're promoting anything, the publishers and everyone wants you to go out and talk, I canceled everything. I really had to say, no, I cannot do all the millions of podcasts. I cannot travel all the time. I need to stay home. So I just really practiced the protocol in that book when it probably wasn't the most convenient for everybody. But you have to, right? You have to do it. And it is tough to navigate that, right? It's one thing to know intellectually, it's another thing to practice it yourself.

Speaker 2:
[08:46] Yeah, I totally agree, Will. And I'm sorry about your father. I can't imagine what that was like on the eve of a book launch and just like all the ups and downs. But I totally agree. I say this is where I learnt to walk the talk.

Speaker 1:
[08:58] Exactly, that's what I was trying to articulate.

Speaker 2:
[09:00] And it's like, I really felt what it was like to be so shut down that I had friends saying, can you come over? We've got this Christmas party. We really want you to, you know, don't be by yourself. And I physically could not get off the couch. It was like using, you know, I had a lot of willpower before this. And I was like, I really can't get the energy to get up and move. And just that spiraling down that your nervous system will take, that's like, no, you're not going anywhere. You need to be still here. And I think this is where grief has a nervous system lens and it's not linear, it's not stages like we've been taught. It's being able to meet these tsunamis of physical and emotional waves that hit so we can process what has happened, particularly when it's a shock, you know, and it feels like the only way I could explain it was like the earth fell out from underneath me.

Speaker 1:
[09:55] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[09:55] Yeah, I was never the same, but as well there is a trajectory that it takes you on, you know, that's in a new way. And I think there's a lot to speak to the post-traumatic growth, but probably like you with your dad, you would give anything to still have them with you. It's just, you learn to look at, well, this is taking me in a different direction now, not where I thought I was going with my life.

Speaker 1:
[10:19] Exactly. So, you talked about this sort of spectrum of symptoms, and maybe let's dial in for people that are even maybe not aware. When we're talking about nervous system dysregulation, we're talking about these symptoms. What are some signs that people can check in with their body and see these proverbial check engine lights?

Speaker 2:
[10:38] Yeah, it's a great question, Will. So, I think people often will start out saying, I can't be still. So, there's too much mobilization. And in that way, we might be experiencing anxiety. We might be experiencing agitation, irritation, and we're reactive. You know, like we're snapping at our partner. We're more aggravated by things than we normally would. That's definitely, like, I think our relationships are a real portal into our nervous system because it's like a mirror. And we share those networks for the body, the brain, and the way we attach with others. But really, looking at the gut, as you've mentioned, looking at the immune system and sleep. Like sleep is one where it will definitely show us if we're too wide. But probably the biggest one that we'll hear people mention is things like, well, you know, I've got gut issues, but it's not got a medical explanation. And they might be more sensitive to foods, but definitely changes in motility, like movement of food through the gut. I think the challenge with getting to sleep and staying asleep is really with that, you know, where it's like the on button is jammed. That's a big one. But one that we don't hear as much about that comes from the physiology of immobilization and shut down and freeze is looking at the extreme fatigue that so many people experience. Like what I was saying, where it was like I couldn't get up off the couch. It's a bit like the handbrake is pulled on and you can't get going. We've kind of defined things as burnout being like a lack of willpower, or it's a psychological part, but there's so much around the physiology involved with that. I think if people have gone through experiences like a profound loss or another traumatic event, what's really interesting is even though we talk a lot about fight and flight, that freeze and immobilization is the most common response in the face of a traumatic event, yet we don't really understand that as well. And so definitely that loss of energy, fogginess, people might have a loss of libido, withdraw, isolate, stonewall. A big one is like, I've got all these things to do and I can't even get started. You know, it's like that inability to do without inbox or deal with the things we need to.

Speaker 1:
[13:09] The paralysis of analysis.

Speaker 2:
[13:10] Exactly.

Speaker 1:
[13:11] Yeah, right, which I was in that mode for short. I'm coming out of it now, but it's just, yeah, your bandwidth isn't as good, your resilience isn't there, right? For me, trust is everything, especially when it comes to things that I recommend a telehealth patient to use every day. Protein powder is definitely that. And I love what Puri is doing, just really solid, transparent products. Puri's PW1 grass-fed whey protein. Each batch is third-party tested by the Clean Label Project over 200 contaminants, including heavy metals. You could see every test result by scanning the QR code on the packaging. This earned Puri the Clean Label Project Transparency Certificate. Each serving gives 21 grams of whey protein from grass-fed cows with 6 grams of French chain amino acids and 2.4 grams of leucine needed for building lean muscle, longevity, free from hormones, GMOs and pesticides made with a few clean ingredients, which is, of course, crucial to me. I love both the flavors, guys. I love the bourbon and vanilla. It's made with real vanilla beans from Madagascar and they're chocolates made from real cocoa. Right now, you can save 32% on your first order when you start a protein subscription. Plus, you get their new starter kit, including a free high-quality shaker bottle worth $25. Use my code WILLCOLE. Go to puori.com/willcole and use the code WILLCOLE at checkout for this exclusive offer, guys. Again, you can save 32% on your first order when you start a protein subscription. Plus, you get their new starter kit, including a free high-quality shaker bottle worth $25. Use my code WILLCOLE. Go to puori.com/willcole and use the code WILLCOLE at checkout for this exclusive offer. Something that I've been recommended to telehealth patients when they ask me, like, what do you think of this? Is AG1, they have really honed in on the concept, the important concept of foundational nutrition. As someone that looks at labs for people around the world, nutrient deficiencies, we know, common, not normal, and it's hard to get it, even when you're intentionally focusing on nutrient density from food, which of course is always first, it's difficult, our soil isn't what it once was, our food nutrient density isn't what it once was. So AG1 fills in the gap. It's a multivitamin, multi-mineral, green superfood, a probiotic blend, a prebiotic blend, an adaptogen blend, a functional mushroom blend, I think I had mentioned it all. It's a lot of stuff, guys. It has 75-plus ingredients, including five clinically studied probiotic strains. AG1 replaces the need for all of these different complex protocols. Spring brings daylight savings, packed challenges, changing routines, and with one scoop, 20 seconds, AG1 makes it all simple. That's all it takes to keep your gut routine steady so you can reset, recharge, and embrace this season without missing a beat. It supports your energy, your immune health, gut health, and so much more. The AG1 NextGen, their new formula, delivers five strains of these clinically-studied probiotics that have been shown to support digestion, immune function, and alleviate occasional bloating. So go to drinkag1.com/willcole to get an AG1 flavor sampler to try all of the different new flavors and a bottle of vitamin D3K2 for free in your AG1 Welcome Kit with your first AG1 subscription order. That's a $72 value, yours free, only while supplies last. Go to drinkag1.com/willcole. Something we explore on the pod is the physiological and psychological component of it, like things like environmental toxins, underlying gut problems, lots of different things that you can measure on labs, I guess is what I'm trying to say, will impact your nervous system. But then there's the feeling side, things like chronic stress, unresolved trauma, and how that's stored in the body just as much as an environmental toxin can. We have to metabolize that just the same, or similarly conceptually. What's the science around that? People may have heard this concept of trauma being stored in the body. What are we talking about there?

Speaker 2:
[17:09] Brilliant question. If we are allowed to nerd out on this, Will.

Speaker 1:
[17:14] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[17:14] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[17:15] Let's nerd out like never before.

Speaker 2:
[17:18] You're speaking my language. One thing that's really helpful for us to understand is the sensory systems. We're talking about the nervous system being the autonomic nervous system consisting of vagus nerve, sympathetic nervous system, and that's like a bridge between the body and brain. But when people talk about the sensors, we think of the five out-of-facing sensors, so touch, sight, sound, taste, and spell, and we can call that exteriception. But then we also have the vestibular system, which is related to the structures in the inner ear and balance, and that integrates really important information to the brain. Now, we talk so much about the vagus nerve as a cranial nerve, but the vestibular cochlea nerve is a really important one as well for how grounded we feel. So a lot of people experience dizziness, and they feel discombobulated after trauma, like it's a feeling of, oh, my spatial orientation isn't right. And then we can go into the next sensory system being proprioception. So that's really like joint position and how our body is being, or sending messages to the brain about where we are. But the 8th sensory system, which is so fascinating, is interoception. And we are seeing so much new research come out on this. And the vagus nerve plays a really large role in sending those signals up to the brain from the body. So you mentioned the gut before, Will, we can say, well, we have this constant communication from the gut going up to the brain. And a lot of that we don't even know. So, you know, it's good. We don't want to feel every piece of food that we break down. That would be very noisy. But what happens is if the signals in our gut or in the body reach our conscious awareness and we say, oh, there's those butterflies in my tummy, that means those signals are being carried up and they're reaching an important region of the brain called the insula. And this is like the sensory integration hub in the middle of the brain. What we know happens for some people following chronic and traumatic stress is that these signals, it's like the volume is either turned up too loud. And so there's anxiety, there's overwhelm. And in the brain, what's been shown is that there's a connection between the insula and the fear circuitry. So it's like they get over coupled together. And then every time someone feels butterflies in their tummy, it triggers more anxiety. So it's like the sensations in the body themselves are a threat. So we can say volume too loud, but for some people, and this has been shown with depression, it's like the volume is turned down too low. And a way of coping is that the body or the brain learns to say this is too much, I can't cope with this, I need to turn that down. So none of that is being chosen, like it's not conscious awareness. But this process of interoception is really interesting because we are now seeing that people with low interoceptive awareness, like we see with depression, like we might see with eating disorders now, but there's also poor interoceptive accuracy, like in anxiety, where we say, well, they do notice the sensation, but it's amplified and it's appraised as something bad's going to happen. So we are also seeing that with things like gut issues, we are seeing that in chronic pain. So it's more a communication challenge. And a large part of our work is fine-tuning the volume, so that people can hear this inner voice, but also maintaining stability from the body and brain to regulate our systems and organs. So that's that interface of, oh yes, this is emotional, this is physical. And we've tried to separate that. But if we look at things like these sensory systems, there is no separation. It's exactly the same neural networks, which is so fascinating.

Speaker 1:
[21:40] Yeah, something that I say too much sometimes, but is mental health is not separate from physical health. Mental health is physical health, and that's kind of what you're saying there right there.

Speaker 2:
[21:48] Exactly.

Speaker 1:
[21:49] I've never heard a better definition, explanation of what's happening on a physiological level. Thank you so much for that. So you mentioned some signs of this interception issue. You mentioned depression, you mentioned eating disorders. Like what are some other signs or categories of issues that could be a sign of it?

Speaker 2:
[22:08] I think if we look at irritable bowel syndrome, this is a really interesting one.

Speaker 1:
[22:12] This is great. Let's go there.

Speaker 2:
[22:14] Well, we've said it's dairy, we've said it's food, and yes, that does play a role in what we eat, but it's now been reclassified as a disorder of gut-brain interaction. I think it should be too because we do see changes in the brain with IBS relating to how sensations are processed. So there is a gut component. But what we probably need to look at before that is, well, what state is somebody spending a lot of their time in? Because if I'm anxious, it's like we've got to get to the grassroots level of what's going on. If I'm anxious a lot, I have changes in motility, I have changes in the state for the microbiome. It's a little bit like the soil is not healthy if we're always anxious for those microbes. And so the signaling then, if I'm anxious and I feel these sensations of pain, I might start to then appraise that as, my god, this is really bad. I've eaten something. What if I go out and I can't find a bathroom? And so that drives more and more and more.

Speaker 1:
[23:23] The vicious cycle.

Speaker 2:
[23:24] Totally. Yes. And it's like the bottom up is driving the top down. So we want to work at addressing both of those. Bottom up factors, top down factors to help people's interoception become more accurate.

Speaker 1:
[23:38] Yeah. Okay. You mentioned something earlier. You mentioned chronic and traumatic stress.

Speaker 2:
[23:44] All right.

Speaker 1:
[23:44] So I find, and I'm sure you see this too, people gaslight themselves or they think, well, they look at someone that's gone through something worse than them and they don't classify themselves as having gone through trauma. Can you define what that even means? Because it's used so flippantly, especially in social media. And I think the context can be lost.

Speaker 2:
[24:05] Yes. I love that you've asked this. I think this is so important to have a conversation around. So if we say, well, what is stress? It's our body and brain mobilizing energy to meet a challenge, face a threat. It's a great thing. Now, we have this inbuilt capacity to recover fully from that. And that process of mobilizing and then coming back down is called allostasis. So if I say, well, what happens when we have the release of hormones like cortisol that allows glucose to be available, it's all the things that we need to happen. But we've kind of looked at the sympathetic nervous system and said, this is a bad thing. We should be calm. You know, and that's not the case at all. Now, if we go to chronic stress next, what that's telling us is that, yes, we mobilize the energy, but it doesn't come back down to the starting point. I saw this so much in Australia pre-COVID. We had these really bad bushfires come through. So I was like, there was a release of all these mobilizing energy. And before people got to recover from that COVID hit, then their business was having an impact. It just went on and on and on. And so there was a shift in that baseline away from where they started. So we can say that's chronic stress. And it's actually the vagus nerve's job to bring that recovery about. So if it's not able to, because of what's happening in our life, we will be dysregulated either to having too much mobilization or an immobilization. So if we look at traumatic stress, it's actually on a spectrum with this like stress and trauma, we can say on a spectrum where we still have a mobilization of energy from that sympathetic nervous system. The vagus nerve is inhibited, but at the time of an event where we have this mobilization of our sympathetic energy, we have a co-activation of dorsal vagal energy, which is a little bit like I've put the accelerator down in the car, and I've pulled the handbrake on. So some people move into freeze, the state of freeze and they'll feel that. But some people go into more of a collapse. Depends on how, and you mentioned a really important word here, you mentioned context. It's challenging to say what is traumatic and what's not, because it's a subjective experience. So if we experience the same thing, and according to your values, how you make meaning of that experience, your genetics, all the things that are unique to you, what's happened in your past, you will experience that in a different way to me. I think this is something for us to look at is, okay, well, how do we then define what trauma is? To me, what's the most important is the implications that it has on the nervous system ongoing. So, if we see somebody who has had that co-activation of the sympathetic and the dorsal vagal state, and they don't get the opportunity to then recover from that, we will either see this swinging up to high where they're like what we said, the on button's jammed, anxiety, agitation, or they might swing down to like the off button's jammed and they collapse, they can't get up or there's the activation of both at the same time. And it's the ongoing dysregulation that we see in the nervous system. I do agree that we are using the word trauma for things that could just be adversity and that doesn't necessarily help us. But I think it's good to look at there is a subjective component to it and the context of that matters. But also what is the longer term, what does that look like for a person ongoing from after the event took place?

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
[32:31] Yeah. Gosh, Stephen Porges has done some incredible research. And we used to just look at the autonomic nervous system as accelerator and brake. It was very simple of the sympathetic mobilized us and it brought fight or flight. And then the brake was the parasympathetic rest and digest. So Stephen's done such a great job to bring to light that state of immobilization where we see freeze and shutdown. And I think that is been absolutely fantastic. It's exactly what our culture has needed because we praise people who fight. We understand when people run away, but there's a lack of understanding of why people might have not taken action. You know, we hear people say, well, if they were having such a hard time, why didn't they say something? Or why didn't they get out of there if they were having such a hard time? So there's an element of judgment. And I think Stephen has done a great job for that. I think it's a good framework for us to work with. I also think there's more to the story. So there's interoception. There's looking at the sense... This is another real nerd out here. Like things like the sensory motor system, which is looking at how we integrate senses with how our body automatically moves into certain postures and things like that. And then there's still an element of top down that we need to look at as well. So for instance, how thoughts, language, belief drives pain, drives physiology, drives the immune system. I mean, we know that that's there too. So I think the Polyvagal Theory is an incredible framework and it's part of the picture, but it's not the whole picture.

Speaker 1:
[34:20] Yeah, you're right. Because these other areas that we're talking about aren't really discussed within that framework, the Polyvagal Framework. So you mentioned the sensory motor component being something that isn't discussed a lot. Can you go there and why is that so important?

Speaker 2:
[34:34] Yeah. Sensory motor is so fascinating because what we see is that it's how people are interacting with their environment and what's coming in through the senses, like we just spoke about all those different senses and the way that their body may move automatically into postures or movements.

Speaker 1:
[34:54] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[34:55] So, you know, we think a lot about voluntary movement. Like if I want to have a drink, I can pick that up. But for people who've had traumatic stress, a lot of the time what happens is these involuntary movements or postures take place and it keeps driving dysregulation. So, for instance, if I have a fear around something and it drives a lot of sympathetic activation, I might automatically come into this brace posture, shoulders up, jaw tense, not moving, looking around like something really bad is going to happen. My body going into that is signaling more threat to the brain. So it's again, this looping cycle like we spoke about. We can look at this with someone who might have grown up in a violent household. They were told, boys don't cry. Then they had a football coach who said, suck it up. And so this is bracing, I'm not going to feel what's happening in my body. I'm going to rise above it. And it's a very sympathetically driven response that then this person might say, I don't understand why I keep having this trouble with rage or anger. And it's a way where it's like, well, because you're driving more anger and rage through your body and you're not connecting to the body signals. So postures and movements like this that people automatically take on, they're actually a lot of the time not aware of. I mean, if you watch someone who has learned to walk on eggshells and they're in conflict and they start to make themselves smaller, it's actually sending the message to the brain, yes, you are helpless. So if we can say to someone, all right, what would upregulate your nervous system in the moment while you're with someone and there's conflict? They might say, well, if I straighten my spine up, I actually feel a little bit more empowered. If I connect to the feeling of the muscles at the back of my body, I actually can stay present and think straight. So these are learned behaviors that get stored in an area in the brain that we call the basal ganglia that learns motor patterns. So part of what we want to do is change motor patterns in a way that we call predictive coding, which is basically saying our responses like this are made through predictions because our brain and nervous system say, this is going to be exactly the same as then. You need to respond with the same way. So through our sensory system, if we can create a new experience, if we can change our bodies, if we can change what's happening to our brain, it creates what's called a prediction error, and then neuroplasticity will take place and we will change that. So this is where we are saying things like Polyvagal are a little bit incomplete is there's a lot more to the picture for people where if we want to create change, a lot of it is about creating this new experiential, compelling experience that's really bringing in their senses and their brain says, oh, hang on, I can't just predict, wait, wait, wait, what's going on here? And then it changes.

Speaker 1:
[38:11] Retrains the nervous system.

Speaker 2:
[38:13] Yeah. So that's why sensory motor is so fascinating. Yeah. It's really complex.

Speaker 1:
[38:17] And is that kind of the aspect of somatic practices at large? Is that that sort of retraining, kind of not confusing the nervous system, but shifting the nervous system?

Speaker 2:
[38:27] I think it's a big part as well of like looking at, well, you know, what is happening. But I think there needs to be more of leaning into those principles of neuroplasticity. Like, you know, if we were going to look at this as someone who had a stroke, we would say we've got six to eight weeks to do high intensity, like high repetitions. We want to connect with making it specific to how they've been affected. So in this case, it would largely be specific to the nervous system state and really lean into those principles of neuroplasticity. I think it's really about, okay, we're going to train this just like we would from a neurology point of view as well.

Speaker 1:
[39:11] Neuroplasticity, I know a lot of the listeners know what it is, but maybe some people don't. What are we talking about?

Speaker 2:
[39:17] Yeah, sure.

Speaker 1:
[39:18] Plastic? My nervous system is plastic?

Speaker 2:
[39:20] I know. It's a bit of a clue, isn't it? Well, the name is a clue because we've got neuro meaning nerve and plasticity meaning plastic. Basically, what it is, is saying that nerves can change how they connect. We can grow new neurons as well. If anybody's watched their child learn, such a fascinating time of how quickly their brains change. Yeah. But we have this ability to change our neurons, connect and speak to each other. Learning a musical instrument, if what we see is that the area, the somatosensory cortex, the area that registers sensation, we actually see that the area of the brain dedicated to the sensations of the hands, that actually gets bigger through playing a musical instrument. But I think we are very neuron-centric, I'm going to say. It's probably people like you and I who've come from a body-based perspective that say, hang on a minute, there's a lot more changes than just the brain. For somebody who plays a musical instrument, there can be things like they get calluses on their fingers as well, or they get more strength in how to hold an instrument. So I actually think we can change that word from neuroplasticity to bioplasticity. I think this speaks to trauma where you and I are saying, the gut changes, the physiology changes, the vagus nerve changes, and we want to move beyond just neurons.

Speaker 1:
[40:51] One aspect of it.

Speaker 2:
[40:52] Yeah, it's very one-dimensional.

Speaker 1:
[40:54] Yeah, right, we like to see the body as separate silos, but it's all one and the same, right? It's all interconnected.

Speaker 2:
[40:59] Exactly.

Speaker 1:
[41:00] In many ways. So you kind of taught us that trauma isn't as much as the event, but with the response to the event. And I love the way you said it. Sometimes, look, I have a love-hate relationship with the way that social media talks about these things, but I love the democratization of information. I love that we're normalizing, giving, taking, destigmatizing it, right? But humanity loves to over-correct, and then we over-therapize and pathologize everything under the sun as like gaslighting and narcissist and trauma. It kind of dilutes powerful concepts that are truth, but we're diagnosing everybody. So what is your take on what's happening with social media and these terms?

Speaker 2:
[41:48] Oh, I love this Will. This is so good. It's funny, isn't it? I love, and I love the over-correction that you brought that up, because it definitely has happened. Like we've gone from, you know, we've got to pay attention to what we feel, and now it's all about just feel your feelings. And there's a lot in that that, you know, it's great to have these conversations. I totally agree, but we don't want to over-simplify these concepts and tell people, well, you know, if you just feel your feelings, you can recover from trauma, because there's not speaking to the complexities and the nuance of things like, well, neurodivergent individuals will find it really challenging with interoception a lot of the time. And then if we say, well, just feel your feelings, and they're like, I can't, why can't I do this simple thing? What's wrong with me? So definitely can see in that context, that's, you know, not always helpful to have such a simple message. And I think we also want to be mindful with trauma that what we might be able to look at in a more helpful way is the difference between, okay, this is stress, but stress isn't bad. Stress is mobilization. And I think having that ability to look at allostasis is this inbuilt capacity that we have that's a really good thing, helps people to say, yes, I'm going to try something that's hard. You know, it's not about never experiencing challenges, but also I would say there's a denial of chronic stress and the implications that that's having for a lot of people. Like, I'm fine. It's not that bad. And then as we look towards now calling all things trauma, I do think it can potentially make us feel more helpless. And have a loss of agency. And that's the last thing that we want people to feel. So I think it's really important to look at, you know, there are periods in our life that create adversity. There are periods in our life where it does have a longer term implication on what happens in our nervous system. But that label of, and again, we can't necessarily classify something as trauma or not trauma with a really clear definition. But I think it's helpful for us just to look at that longer term implication it has on our nervous system. I guess what I'm seeing a lot now is the, you know, when we say use lines like, well, trauma is just stored in the body. And we know that there is a body involvement with that. Absolutely, we see that it has an impact on our immune system, our endocrine system, all of those things. But for some people, there is a sense of a foreign object being lodged somewhere in their body. And I don't think that's a necessarily helpful message either. So it's really having the context around it. And social media loves to simplify. It loves to say that a lot of the challenges that we might have with other people is, they're a narcissist and it creates an avoidance of difficult conversations. And that's one thing that I find really hard to watch because our ability to have hard conversations after ruptures and bring that repair about is what builds healthy families, healthy communities, and that's what we definitely need more of at the moment.

Speaker 1:
[45:19] Oh my gosh, it's so true. It's like we've, in this overcorrection, we've kind of created these sort of tribal isolationists. We don't like to have hard conversations. And I feel like a lot of the conversations that have come about, it's created even a decrease in resilience, a decrease in grit, a decrease of doing difficult things and having hard conversations, right? And it's like, if we dis, if someone disagrees with us, they're gaslighting, right? And disagreement is not gaslighting. It's just different perspectives, different opinions, diversity of thought, right?

Speaker 2:
[45:58] And I think there's a part where we can use, it's not even debate. I think we're losing an ability to debate now, but to really see what is arising for us when somebody has a different opinion and why it makes us so charged and why it makes us so reactive because there has been a polarization that's come in, I would say, amplified in the last few years and obviously there's messages that are going out that is being, encouraging more of that polarization. But I think that ability to say, well, okay, this is a different opinion to how I would see that, but it doesn't make another person a bad person. It doesn't mean that they're a threat, but we are highly threatened by the differences that we have now, which is a real shame because belonging, connection, that's all the greatest things for our nervous system. And yes, I totally agree with you. We need to still have the grit and resilience. That doesn't mean we suck it up and get on with it. Resilience, a lot of the time, is leaning into what's hard and being willing to sit with that that's uncomfortable. I think social media is great in a lot of ways, but there are, yes, these messages don't help.

Speaker 1:
[47:15] It's difficult, right? Because it is such a blessing, but it's a double edged sword social media is because I think it does amplify some of these isolation, tribal echo chambers that can happen that can really create more problems, I think, in the long term. There's not an easy answer, I guess, to that, right? It's like, how do we use social media? Do you have any tips there? How do we use social media to educate ourselves but still be okay with differences of opinion without it creating such, you know, recoiling?

Speaker 2:
[47:43] Yeah, this is a great question. I think the helpful part is, like, a lot of this comes into the awareness that we have of what's happening for our own nervous system, like you said. I think, to be aware that content that gets made a lot of the time is trying to get a big emotional response out of us. Because people will engage with that. So, I think being aware that there is that part coming in, and then watching our own reaction with that, and then I know we go straight to the comment section a lot of the time, and you find yourself, oh, let me just have a look at what they're saying to me. And that in itself, you will see that polarization straight away. You see the name calling, you see that, well, you're just like that, you're that, you're this, that's why you think that. And I think that in itself, I find that really hard to watch. Like it does for me definitely bring in that dorsal vagal energy of, oh, this is so sad, like a hopelessness I feel when I read those things. So for myself, I've definitely had to limit that. I think knowing the way that social media is able to target you and what you're interested in, but also what I've found, which is really scary, is that I'm given now, like reels that come through that are around kids, and they know, like Instagram or the powers that be, know that I'm a mother with a young daughter, and I'm being fed reels that is deliberately trying to keep me hooked with strong fear. And I found that really unsettling to go, wow, you want me to feel this fear. So I think firm boundaries, firm, firm, firm boundaries, which is, for me, now being, I'm just going to leave my phone away when I start the bedtime routine with my daughter. And not getting into that space where you start noticing the emotional part of I'm scrolling without any awareness of what's happening inside of me and also how long I've been on here, because you can just get lost in that vortex of social media.

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 3:
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Speaker 4:
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Speaker 1:
[52:35] Boundaries are medicine, right? Especially, and it starts with you, boundaries with yourself, boundaries with technology, with the things you're doing on a daily basis. But I'd love to get your thoughts of that sort of nuance and context of boundaries, something we talk a lot about in the podcast, around foods that don't love you back, around habits that don't love you back, drinks that don't love you back. But then it's one of those things that, kind of what we talked about earlier, this sort of overcorrection sometimes, where I feel like boundaries become this sort of isolationist thing, where we avoid conflict or difficult conversations to work out and find maybe commonality or learn from someone else that's different than you. And we just say, it's boundaries, like, I'm having boundaries and we just don't want, we're back to that echo chamber. So how do we utilize something like boundaries, not with social media, but with other people? And in a, because it's obviously a thing that we need to practice on, but then how do we avoid this overcorrection to avoid echo chambers?

Speaker 2:
[53:31] Yes. It's a great question, Will. You know, I've come from a health professional background and in the work I do, it's probably similar to you. I've had to learn how to be a leader. And that has been a big stretch for me for how do I have a team of people and how do I be really clear? So, I think for me, it started more around being clear on expectations, like for myself, and then communicating that really well. And through training I did, you know, I did have reflected back to me, you're not being clear. And I was like, oh, so it's like, well, what does it look like to win? And I think about this is my daughter because it's like the same, she wants to know how to win. How does she kick the goal? What does it look like to do something well rather than a saying, don't do that, don't do that, don't do that, don't do that. So for me with team, that's been a really big part of being able to, yeah, first of all, get clear on what expectations are, communicate that and do it regularly. Like once a quarter, this is what needs to happen. And then I think that is helpful for all of our relationships. I mean, it doesn't mean that we come in and say, these are my expectations. But I think when there are ruptures, we need to say, this is what is I would want, this is what I need or this is how I would like this to be. It doesn't have to be always saying, you're not doing that, you're not doing this. So I think it really starts out with being clear for ourselves. I've learned over the years, I don't do well with rigidity. So if I was to say, I'm not going to drink at all, I tend to find that that creates more of a friction for me than where I'm at now, which is I go out and have one to two drinks, and that's great. You know, that's a really happy place for me for just enjoying the moment, being a part of something, celebrating. I find that that's also the case with, you know, certain foods. I've had stages of saying, right, I'm not having that at all. And that was helpful when I needed it. So after losing my brother, I had to go gluten and dairy free for quite a while because I had really bad gut issues and that resolved. And now I have some of it, but I don't, you know, go. I find it for me, it's being in the middle is where I need to be. So there's again, this sense of rigidity and that kind of thing. But coming back to your question about this being with people.

Speaker 1:
[56:03] Because I feel like a lot of times people just cut people out of their life now. Yes, it's like they're boundaries are just ex-communicating people.

Speaker 2:
[56:10] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[56:10] That don't agree with them or don't think exactly like them.

Speaker 2:
[56:13] I totally agree. And I think there's a part where, you know, if there's abuse, if there's violence, yes, of course, it's not what we're talking about. When we talk about this from boundaries, I think that there's a part where unfortunately, in some cases in dynamics that we're in, in communities that we're in, in our families that we're in, we do need to keep having those expectations and being clear about things put in place straight away. I found speaking up sooner rather than later is definitely the biggest thing. Don't wait until it builds up, builds up, builds up, but early on, have those discussions. I think also just knowing what's yours to speak up on and what might be your partners for their family. Also knowing what's your responsibility and what's not your responsibility. A lot of people in healthcare feel like they need to be the rescuer and the fixer and the swoop in and save other people. I think another big lesson for me has been a lot of the time, just let people have their own experience and they can figure this out too. That in itself is a boundary. When people are talking, just to be able to support them. Yeah, that's it. It's like you're not jumping into rescue or fix and then getting yourself worked up alongside them. I think there's a big part of learning, and this is interoception again, is learning what belongs to you and what doesn't. There's actually some, I've got one last nerd out, if that's okay, Will.

Speaker 1:
[57:42] Oh, please. We have not reached our quota.

Speaker 2:
[57:44] Oh, great. There's actually been some interesting research. When you look at people who work in healthcare, who say, I'm burnt out, and it was looking at what was happening with their brain activation. So with empathetic distress, and this is a big one that I hear from people is, I get dysregulated alongside my clients, or I get dysregulated alongside my family. How do I stop? What we see is that in the brain, networks light up that actually have to do, well, there's mirror neurons, but also with physical pain and activating fear circuitry that creates dysregulation. So that's like one network. On the other hand, the ability to be compassionate creates or lights up another network and this actually correlates to maternal love. So what we see in empathetic distress, and this relates to interoception, is there is a blurring of the self and other distinction. So it's really a lot to do with the insula or that part in the cortex. And so from a body-based perspective, if we can stay connected to our own sensations, to our own body and the boundaries and the container of our own body, in the moment, we are not being, not caring, we are not being insensitive, we are actually keeping a clear differentiation of this is your emotional experience and this is mine. And I think in a large part, people who say, well, I'm an empath, a lot of that can come from, they've had to look outside of them at other people's responses to know if they're safe or not, particularly in their childhood. And they might still just be playing that out as an adult.

Speaker 3:
[59:38] Oh, this is so good.

Speaker 1:
[59:39] Okay, so you teach people around the world how to deal with these issues, to bring about nervous system dysregulation, to nourish that vagus nerve. I don't know if that's the best word for it, but to optimize their vagus nerve. What are your favorite tools to start that process?

Speaker 2:
[59:55] You would have heard me mention lots on interoception now, but I think it's being able to, first of all, bring the awareness to what's happening in the moment. So if we were talking and I was sharing all of these big challenges with you, and you were starting to feel like, wow, I'm feeling this rise in mobilization, I'm feeling anxious, like recognizing the state that we're moving into, first of all. And second, in that moment, being able to connect back, it's like making a U-turn back to our own experience and our own body. So whilst it's great to have a formal practice that we do each day, and definitely encourage that, where we get the most bang for our buck and where neuroplasticity will take place is in the heat of the moment. So this is really where if you were sitting there now, you might start to go, all right, well, I want to connect to my body, so I'm going to lean back in my chair. When we're often in that rescuing and fixing mode, we tend to feel ourselves come forward and feel like, I've got to do something. So it's like, come back and I'm going to feel the container of my body by gently letting my spine touch the back of the chair and even pressing back into the chair a little bit. You don't even know I'm doing this. But it helps me go, this is my body, and now I can connect back to the physical sensations inside of me. So it's like, make a U-turn, come back to you. And you can do this with the back of your legs, gently pressing into the chair as well, and add a attention to the lower part of the body, when a lot of the time when we're anxious, the energy is all up here. So by bringing it down, that's really helpful and to the back of the body. That's one of my favorite in the moment. And a lot of people say, wow, I can really feel that shift straight away.

Speaker 1:
[61:45] Yeah, because it's an anchor to the present moment. Instead of you being up in the brain, like you said, this sort of frenetic anxiety spiral, it's anchoring you.

Speaker 2:
[61:55] Exactly. And we're changing the prediction of what the brain thinks that it needs to do. Because you think about it for the people, like a lot of our attachment styles are learned, and they're so closely, well, they're carried out through the nervous system. So if our brain is saying, I need to fix, I need to rescue, I need to do something here, that's the prediction and it's mobilizing our anxiety. We say, hang on a minute, this is actually what's happening. My body is relaxed and comfortable, I am here. Somebody is telling me about what's happening to them, but I'm here, the brain will go, oh, okay, I don't need to create all this extra energy. Vegas nerve comes in, we come back down, and we're still connected to our inner world. That's the place where we are most empowered to make a good decision and take care of our own needs and emotions, rather than get swept up with other people's experience.

Speaker 1:
[62:52] Wow, okay, so you mentioned, yes, we need to do daily practice, but in the heat of the moment, when we see the anxiety or the flare up, for lack of better words, the nervous system dysregulation symptoms come up, these anchors, like the one you mentioned, are there any other ones that you think that we could do in the heat of the moment that will be beneficial to tone that Vegas nerve?

Speaker 2:
[63:14] Yeah, so I think for people who tend to notice their energy drop, like, and this is another social media trend of, you know, if you've had trauma, just do breath work. It's like, well, hang on a minute, there's some context here. So I think for people who have learned enough to connect with their body, but they start to notice that drop in energy in the moment, and this depends on the circumstances you're in, because you might not want people to notice this, but if you're by yourself, switching the breath to be short and fast is really great for those people who tend to drop down. So it's almost like a... And that in itself will bring in that sympathetic energy, like the mobilizing energy to help them say, you don't need to drop down in energy and collapse, and the brain will go, oh, okay, oh, there's energy here, I'm back. And that's if you feel like, you know, a lot of people just find they might feel hopeless about money. They get home, they check the mail, and there's some bills there. They open it up and they go, oh my God, I'm never gonna get, like, so when that spiral down starts to happen, if we can add in something that brings in mobilizing energy, it can stop us from spiraling down the shame, spiral or intercollapse, helplessness and hopelessness.

Speaker 1:
[64:35] Okay, wow. Okay, so those are in the moment, so people could do them anytime something comes up, right? In any situation where they find them spiraling.

Speaker 2:
[64:43] Yes, definitely.

Speaker 1:
[64:45] And the more, is the theory, then the more that they do the in the moment practices, they're going to gain resilience over time?

Speaker 2:
[64:52] Exactly, yes. So think about the repetition as being a high repetition. You want to be doing it often and very specific to what you're experiencing. Like I was saying, if it's like the, in dynamic with another person, if it's on your own where you feel yourself, you know, spiraling, you want to match what's happening to the practice to the state.

Speaker 1:
[65:14] Got it. Which for many people, it's going to be, that's going to be a daily practice. When something isn't at the height of the moment, what are some daily practices people can lean into?

Speaker 2:
[65:24] Yeah, there's lots that we've covered that look at the gut. There's lots that we've covered that look at sleep. But I think one that we probably don't think about because, you know, we're talking always with the nervous system about trauma, heaviness, anxiety, agitation, shut down. But one thing I think people also struggle is to have a capacity to hold joy, to hold play, to hold awe. And that in itself is a mobilizing energy, like it's bringing in this excitement. But for many people, that excitement can become anxiety. So it's like, okay, well, how do we build a bigger container for ourselves to hold and experience joy, play, excitement? And that's largely where that sympathetic energy is kept in check by the vagus nerve. So it's a blend of the two. So if we find ways with other people, like right now as we're talking, I can feel this mobilizing energy because I'm so excited to turn it out on this, but it's still, we are having a two-way conversation, you're regulated and that is sending me cues of safety. So if people can find something that brings excitement, and we spoke about even if it means stepping outside your comfort zone, but you're doing that with somebody else who is in a regulated state, you are effectively doing bicep curls for your vagus nerve, to bring that in and keep the nervous system in check. So I am a big fan of joy, play, happiness, it doesn't all need to be about coming out of anxiety or shut down or the heavy side of it as well. Yeah, right.

Speaker 1:
[67:13] Great. What do you think of, you mentioned breathwork, where does the role of breathwork, where does that come into play?

Speaker 2:
[67:20] It's so helpful, but I think the problem is it's about trauma-sensitive sequencing. So if we start with the breath, for many people, it's dysregulating. So if we say, okay, everybody should do slow, deep breathing with a long exhalation because that helps the vagus nerve, and it does, that's fantastic. I went to a yin yoga class shortly after losing Sam, and in the class, it was so much long exhalations, I started to feel that going down. And I left feeling the most impending sense of doom, and I was so far down in that dorsal vagal shutdown energy because it wasn't the right resource for me to use. So breath needs to match what's happening, but what we want to look at is, okay, when do we introduce it? So if we look for a lot of people paying attention to the breath, they're not ready for that yet. The breath isn't neutral. It's taught early on in a lot of meditation practices and worlds like that. But for people who are dysregulated, they need really to be working more with the sensory systems first. I've seen it so many times where people have said, they just told me to keep paying attention to my breath. And then for many people, what ends up happening is they either have this profound increase in anxiety and panic, and then they're paying attention to air hunger, and they're starting to feel, oh my gosh, I'm so panicked. Panic attack. Yeah. Or in the other case, people just associate and they sit there meditating, dissociated and in another world. So I don't think it's the best starting point, but it's an incredibly useful tool when it's done with nuance, when it's done in a trauma-informed way. And I really love being able to see in the breaths what state somebody might be in. So we can look at respiratory rate. And we know that if we're looking at somebody who's up around 16 breaths per minute or higher, there's probably sympathetic nervous system mobilization. And below 10 breaths a minute, we might be saying, well, that could be more of the dorsal physiology in place there. So it can be a great assessment tool as well.

Speaker 1:
[69:46] Yeah, so maybe some basic box breathing. That's not what you're talking about. That's could have probably simple enough box breathing. But yeah, I've been going through what I'm going, was going through this sort of stressful time in my life, doing these sort of more advanced holotropic breath work, which does have exciting research around trauma and sort of tapping in endogenously to the similar responses, different psychedelics with that trauma work, but it's not for everybody. And it's, that's why a facilitator for more of these advanced breath work classes or approaches are so important, right?

Speaker 2:
[70:19] Yes, and having the foundations before getting to that.

Speaker 1:
[70:21] Getting some resilience before you leap into it. It would be like going to a, you know, an advanced exercise class and never walking into the gym before.

Speaker 2:
[70:30] Exactly, yes.

Speaker 1:
[70:30] Yeah, it doesn't make the advanced class bad, it's just to meet your body where it's at.

Speaker 2:
[70:36] Yeah, and to just take your time. Like, you know, I think if we're looking at one definition of trauma being too much, too fast, we can say, well, then building regulation is just the right amount at the right time.

Speaker 1:
[70:49] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[70:49] So I think it's like, it doesn't mean never, it just means.

Speaker 1:
[70:52] Not now. Yeah, well said. What do you think of transcutaneous vagal nerve devices?

Speaker 2:
[70:59] This is such an exciting field we're coming into. So I think we're seeing a lot of promise now, and the research devices are fantastic because we're seeing, yes, they are starting to build the bank of research to support them. I think we are very early in the stages of this, and I am starting a research project next year specifically on it, because it is a frustration of mine that there isn't enough around it. But when we look at what we need to know, it's the frequency, it's the bandwidth, it's the intensity, and it's the time. So if we're going to say, well, again, what are we trying to achieve with this? Is somebody more in the sympathetic or the dorsal vagal state? We need more parameters around a protocol to use, and I don't think we have that yet. I don't think it's far away, and that will be really exciting. I think the whole world of neuromodulation is incredible, because it helps a lot of people who have been stuck for a long time. If we look at how we've seen it with epilepsy being used, I do think it will be in the future, in the coming years. But I think right now, it would be better to look at in the moment what you can do as an investment of time rather than using the device. Because again, it's passive, isn't it? It's not like that neuroplastic component where we can really see that change.

Speaker 1:
[72:32] Yeah. That's that chipmunk.

Speaker 2:
[72:35] You got a friend.

Speaker 1:
[72:37] We're recording this.

Speaker 2:
[72:39] He's like, it's my turn to share.

Speaker 1:
[72:42] You cannot hear this from people if we're going to keep this in the episode or not, but there's a chipmunk. He's my friend. He lives in the ceiling. He comes around a few times a day, but recently. Anyways, it's country live people, which is part of life. I love that.

Speaker 2:
[72:59] He's ready to be a star.

Speaker 1:
[72:59] He hasn't jumped through yet, little Alvin.

Speaker 2:
[73:02] Have you got something to say?

Speaker 1:
[73:04] He's like, I need that bagel nerve stimulation. I'm nervous AF.

Speaker 3:
[73:10] Put it in my ear.

Speaker 1:
[73:12] Okay. So we'd see great success with it when used appropriately. You're right. But I'm so excited about this research that you're working on. Really excited. So people that don't know, there are devices that can go close to your body. There's some on your neck, there's some on your wrist, some on your... Is there any ones that you think are more promising than others?

Speaker 2:
[73:29] I think definitely looking at devices that are used on the ear is showing the most consistency. So that, but also we can use it through the neck as well. There's been shown some good evidence there, but the ear is appearing to be at this stage, the most consistently showing the best results.

Speaker 1:
[73:48] Amazing. Amazing. So before we go, the podcast is called The Art Of Being Well. At the end, we have your Art Of Being Well. What's the most disgusting healthy food that you eat? You do it for the health benefits, not for the taste.

Speaker 2:
[74:02] Oh, this is such a good question. Okay, so there is recently, and you might see this when you go to Byron Bay, there's this new thing come out. It's not actually disgusting. The texture of it is a bit gross, but it's called sea moss.

Speaker 1:
[74:15] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[74:15] And so, you know, in the jar and it's slimy.

Speaker 1:
[74:18] So is this vegan Byron? It's nearby. Because of all the wellness stuff. Yes.

Speaker 2:
[74:21] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[74:22] So what's it taste like for people that haven't had it?

Speaker 2:
[74:24] It's actually not too bad. I got one that has like, the flavor was mermaid something or other, and it was kind of sweet, but I just put it into a smoothie. So it was all right.

Speaker 1:
[74:34] I've seen the social media videos where people have it straight up and they're grossed out by it.

Speaker 2:
[74:39] Yeah. I don't know if I could do that, but this one was quite good. So you have to check it out when you're in the area. I will.

Speaker 1:
[74:45] Do you take supplements? And if so, maybe what are two lesser known supplements that people should know about?

Speaker 2:
[74:50] Good question. I'm pretty basic with the supplements. So Magnesium, I am still taking a breastfeeding supplement because I'm still breastfeeding. And also, I bought some creatine. So when I wean my daughter, that will be the next one that I definitely want to start on. Of course, people would have heard so many of those benefits, but I'm pretty boring with the supplements, to be honest.

Speaker 1:
[75:15] Okay. Creatine. People are going to be wondering what breastfeeding supplement, because people haven't mentioned that before.

Speaker 2:
[75:20] Okay. Sure. So the main thing that you'll see from postnatally is obviously the iron deficiency. And I had that right throughout my pregnancy, and I was taking a really high dose iron tablet. I was also taking like a, it was like a frozen beef tablet that is meant to have a really high dose. I was eating red meat like four times a day. But unfortunately, I just, it wasn't really coming up my iron levels. And in the end, I went, well, I guess this is just part of being pregnant. But it took a long while for that to come back up as well. But within that, most of those supplements, they'll be like the folic acid as well. And it's a general multivitamin that goes with it. But look, I do work a lot on my nutrition to make sure that I'm eating. I still eat fairly high fat. I eat really high protein, lots of bone broths, lots of animal product. And I found that that was really made a big difference keeping in that way. I've only been vegetarian once and I did not respond well to it at all. And so right throughout my pregnancy and afterwards, I ate a lot of the healthy fats and a lot of protein.

Speaker 1:
[76:33] Amazing. What is the weirdest, most out of the box thing you've done for your wellness that you're willing to admit on a podcast?

Speaker 2:
[76:41] This is such a good question as well. Well, look, I don't know if this is weird, but it does tie into what we said today. So after losing Sam, I was in France. I still went overseas and did a lot of the study on my own, and I was so lonely and so just felt this sense of I don't belong. The people is wonderful as the people are in France. They don't often speak a lot of English and I was finding it really hard. So I remember going back to my hotel room and just sobbing and sobbing and sobbing, and I said to my heart, what is it that you need right now? So the answer I got was a grief retreat. I was like, okay, let's Google grief retreat. I was planning on heading back to the US next, but I actually found one in Colorado. So I went on a grief retreat for seven days in total silence, and it ended up being one of the most beautiful things because I didn't want to talk about my experience, but I didn't want to be alone, and I wanted to be held in something bigger. And it was so healing and therapeutic. And I shared a room with a woman who, we hadn't spoken for seven days, but we'd had the same room together. And at the end, when we started talking, it turned out she'd lost her brother to suicide as well. And then she invited me to come back and stay with her family and her children off the back of that trip. And I went and we stayed friends. And it's all of those ways that things continue to flow on. And then when I went from the Grief Retreat to Boulder, where she was, it really inspired me to move then onto what, near Byron Bay when I went back to Australia. So it was like a stepping stone that unfolded what was to come from there. So yeah, it was very special.

Speaker 1:
[78:40] That's really special. Thanks for sharing that. This has been a blessing of a conversation. Thank you for coming on. Where do people go to learn more about your work? Get plugged in.

Speaker 2:
[78:49] So my website is my name, jessicamaguire.com. Everything is on there, but I do love to nerd out on Instagram, and mostly because it's giving that information with a lot of nuance and context rather than the black and white, and my handle is Repairing the Nervous System.

Speaker 1:
[79:06] Thanks so much for coming on.

Speaker 2:
[79:07] Thanks for having me, Will.

Speaker 1:
[79:08] Thanks again for listening to The Art Of Being Well. You can support the show by subscribing to at Dr. Will Cole on YouTube, or you can watch full episodes. And if you haven't already, please leave a five-star review here and share your favorite episodes with a friend. New episodes drop every Monday and Thursday. To learn more about everything we've talked about in this and every episode, head to drwillcole.com/podcast. I'll be back again next time, and I hope you will too. Talk soon.

Speaker 5:
[79:47] Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.