transcript

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 4:
[00:59] It feels good to Geico. Hello, welcome to CarCast. I'm Matt The Motorator D'Andria. We have a special show today. We welcome Stephen Cox as our guest. Stephen has been a long time contributor and the on air voice of the Mecum Auctions. He's also a successful race car driver, which I'm sure he will share with us. Before we get started, I want to remind you about our friends at FanDuel. If you're watching games this week, jump on FanDuel. Download the FanDuel app and place your bet. Must be 21 and over and present in select states. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER. All right, here we are with Stephen Cox. Stephen, how are you doing?

Speaker 5:
[01:41] I'm doing good. Good to hear from you. Thanks for having me on. What's life like on the West Coast?

Speaker 4:
[01:45] It's not it's not too bad. You know, we I know we're going to talk about some racing and some stuff, but you know, we just got back from the Grand Prix of Long Beach this past weekend. Before that was NHRA weekend, heading out to the Porsche Airwater event, which is part of the group that does Lefkakult. But this is a they're about three years into doing this other version. I think a little bit more modern cars for their, you know, Lefkakult is just the air-cooled Porsche stuff. This is pretty much everything. And there's a big auction that goes on. Broad Arrow has an auction up there. It's exclusively Porsche's. So there's a lot going on in the car world.

Speaker 5:
[02:34] So how was the Long Beach of Grand Prix at the at that exact moment? I was on the opposite coast driving the 14 hours of Daytona. I missed everything. Was it a good race?

Speaker 4:
[02:44] It was it was a fantastic race. But the the the Long Beach race has kind of turned into. For me, I guess for a lot of IndyCar fans, it's it's now like the second biggest, the second most prestigious behind the Indy 500. It's a huge event. They do all the drifting ahead of time. They bring the trophy trucks out. There's some vintage car racing that happens as well. Zach Brown from McLaren, he has cars. He brought his Audi out. He was vintage racing in that class and managing an IndyCar team and managing all of his drivers and the hospitality and everything else. And he just has to like run off for a minute and drive his car, qualify it, race it, come back. And it's it's kind of it's a lot to do for a guy like that for sure. But it's quite the spectacle.

Speaker 5:
[03:40] Yeah, I saw Zach at the McLaren headquarters, which is in Indianapolis, very close to where I live last summer. And, you know, everybody there was fantastic. Security everywhere, all over the place. It's like you're walking into the CIA's headquarters or something. And it's funny how the Long Beach Grand Prix has built its history. You know, what it started out as like a Formula 5000 race way, way back in the day. And it went through several different iterations to become what it is. So it's built that foundational history.

Speaker 4:
[04:16] Yes, a lot of that is from Jim McHaleon, who recently passed away. But Jim McHaleon was basically the president or somehow involved with the Long Beach Grand Prix for maybe 50 years. He was there for a long time, putting that event together. OK, so let's back up a bit. For those of you guys listening, Stephen's voice might be familiar to you if you've been watching Mechum Auctions for any part of your life. He is one of the voices there, in addition to many different car shows and events. Let's talk a little bit about that. So where we most know you from is from TV, from Mechum, but other stuff as well. How long were you at Mechum?

Speaker 5:
[05:02] I was there for 16 years. I was on the very, literally the very first show ever shot.

Speaker 4:
[05:10] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[05:11] And that was in, let's see, I think August of 2008. And I left there in 2024 after 16 years and just had a great time.

Speaker 4:
[05:22] Yeah. I was going to say why leave Mechum? But obviously 16 years is a long time and you've got other stuff that you set your sights on. But also there was like a lot of things happening in the, in the entertainment space, sort of behind the scenes, if you will. We've seen Motor Trend kind of come and go and Discovery Channels up in, you know, we're a little confusing as to what's going on with Discovery, part of the Paramount deal and Warner Brothers. And, and we have like this, this big boom of automotive shows, not just the auctions being, being on TV. And then we kind of lost a bunch of the shows. I don't know if we just sort of as, as enthusiasts lost our taste for it or the networks just sort of lost their.

Speaker 5:
[06:10] The networks don't want them, Matt.

Speaker 4:
[06:11] Yeah, they seems like they just don't want them anymore.

Speaker 5:
[06:14] They don't want them. If you're not IndyCar or NASCAR, you're having a hard time finding a home.

Speaker 4:
[06:21] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[06:21] And it doesn't matter what, look at the short track series, look at the world of outlaws, look at the Grand National Super Series, Super Cup Stock Car Series, Sprint Car Racing. Where's it all gone? ASA Racing, ARCA Racing, where is it? You know, very, very few of those series can get any attention from what was once considered mainstream network television. And, you know, I've done a lot of television production for race series as well. And back in the day, you could call up Speed, you could call up Speed Vision before that, you call up Mab TV and you could find, even if you had to buy your way on, which was common. I mean, there's that's no sin. A lot of people needed to buy a time slot to put your TV show on. People would watch it. You could get sponsors for it. And now you call up the networks and you can't even get past the gatekeeper. They don't want motor sports. And the auctions are running out of places to go, Matt. There they look how many places Mecum has been. They're running out of options. All these bridges are behind them. NBC long gone, you know, Velocity, Discovery, all these are long gone. And everybody is moving toward a streaming platform. And that's what you're going to see because mainstream networks. And I can't tell you why, but I can tell you they don't want them.

Speaker 4:
[07:38] Yeah, that's a good question, because I don't really know why either. But for some reason, it's just not happening. Now, interesting for the auctions. So the auctions, the auctions really kind of like Barrett Jackson and Mecum, really were able to build up those brands and build up an audience because of that TV coverage. People loved watching it even if they couldn't go. It's interesting to watch. You kind of get your finger on the pulse of values. But a lot of people that watching aren't necessarily trading cars, they're just looking to see how much they think their car is going to be worth. It's just kind of interesting to kind of see what's going on in the market. But when that started, streaming it seemed like it was the C class, D class. You're like, how do I do it? Where does it go? Do I have a good internet connection? All kinds of things like that. And now, I think there's life for the auctions specifically. If there was no more TV coverage, I still think there's life for them streaming because we have so many people who are getting online and doing that kind of stuff, even if they just did it on their own right through YouTube.

Speaker 5:
[09:05] Oh, yeah.

Speaker 4:
[09:06] It would be fine. But there are other partnerships that where they can probably stream that through as well. So I think that it's a little different. Now, listen, I remember we go up to Monterey Car Week all the time and we may be at one event and streaming the auction on like on a phone while we're at that event because you can't be at all these places at once. So but a lot of the TV shows and the build shows and stuff like that, that YouTube.

Speaker 5:
[09:36] They're going to make the transition just fine. It's here. Here's what's going to happen. If you look at, let's see, when we were at, when I was with Mecum, we would get 100,000 to 225,000 viewers per day.

Speaker 4:
[09:52] Sure.

Speaker 5:
[09:53] And then if you have a three-day event, a lot of those are crossovers, a lot of those are the same viewers watching twice, but nevertheless, that's the numbers that you rack up. Now, compare that to your favorite major podcast right now. They're getting millions of views. So, here's where the loss is going to be, Matt. You're going to find the faithful viewers are going to follow the auction, they're going to follow your racing series, the faithful viewers are going to follow you wherever you go. And if you have to, you might even pay a little bit. The only loss is going to be in what we call sampling, where people are sitting down and they're scanning through with their remote control, and they've gone past 15 channels in the last 12 seconds, and, oh, wait a second, go back to that last channel. I had one of those cars when I was a kid. Those are the only people you're losing.

Speaker 4:
[10:44] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[10:44] So I think the industry will survive it just fine, but the numbers will be more realistic. The numbers that you could get from Nielsen ratings and the various subscriptions that you can subscribe to to find your numbers, they're inflated. Now, they're not false, but if you get the same guy watching three days in a row, he's counted as a viewer all three days, and you're going to get a little bit more honest summary when you go streaming and you're going to lose sampling. That's going to be it.

Speaker 4:
[11:16] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[11:18] All right.

Speaker 4:
[11:18] So let's just hold on one second. Let's get Bill Goldberg in here as well and have him join the conversation. So just hold on. Hello.

Speaker 3:
[11:42] Morning, gentlemen. Sorry about my tardiness.

Speaker 4:
[11:44] That's no problem. We were just talking about the state of automotive television and the lack of it.

Speaker 3:
[11:54] Good programming.

Speaker 4:
[11:55] Yeah, it's mostly online, and nothing's really streaming anymore.

Speaker 3:
[12:00] Because the platform's completely changed. What we used to know of automotive and television 100 percent across the board, it's a different concept. Look at my Paramount Plus show that's been in suspended animation for a year and a half.

Speaker 4:
[12:16] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[12:17] It's as good, if not better, than anything out there, I believe. I'm a little biased, but.

Speaker 4:
[12:23] Yeah. We're in it. You're joining us. We're still recording. We're here with Stephen Cox. He's a longtime fixture at Mecum Auction, left a few years ago to pursue some new things that we're also going to get into. We were talking about the state of automotive television. Honestly, we think the auctions could survive by streaming because people are so much more familiar with that process now, streaming it on YouTube. You're right. To Stephen's point, some of the car shows and the build shows that we're on, getting even a few hundred thousand viewers, there's YouTubes getting millions of viewers, and they don't have the bureaucracy of a network to deal with. It's interesting because you think the networks are the big, powerful player, but the YouTubers that are doing well are going, why would I want to deal with any of that? I could do everything on my own. I control the production, I control the schedule, I control the timing, the content, the money, the advertising. You control all of it, and it's a hell of a business model.

Speaker 3:
[13:29] It truly is, but it's redefined everything. As you and I have talked about this concept that I'm pursuing right now with giving back to the military with all the sponsors involved, there's a version of it that will work here, there's a version of it that works there, but there's a version that doesn't work. The television version, how you would board it out and how you would shoot it with the arcs doesn't transfer over to YouTube and vice versa. It's shot completely differently, you have a different attention span, there's so many different variables now, it's a completely different ballgame.

Speaker 4:
[14:18] Yeah, and then Stephen was pointing out all the various racing organizations and forms of racing that are out there that we don't really get to see on TV. You've got to go and find it online from dirt track, circle tracks, two-wheel, four-wheel, everything out there. But OK, so Stephen, you're in Indy. That's your home base there. I know you've been getting into quite a bit of racing and not getting into. You've been at it for some time now, winning championships and stuff. Tell us a little bit about what forms of racing are you doing? What are you racing? What are some of the cars you've got out there?

Speaker 5:
[15:01] Well, I'm thankful not to own a race car. I drive for other people. You do not want me working on your race car. A few people may want me driving and nobody wants me working on it. So I drive for other teams in the Champ Car Series, Endurance Racing Series and in the World Racing League. And then I still occasionally will do some circle track stuff. But really, I just I feel like I kind of found a home in endurance racing when you're going through an entire 90-minute to two-hour stint. It really rewards a patient driver and an experienced driver. It rewards a guy who can dissect every single corner and learn every crack in the asphalt any place and just try to maximize. I'll tell you what, maybe the difference is this. In endurance racing, the fastest guy on an open track like you would have in qualifying really doesn't matter because you're never going to get that open lap. There's 40, 50, and in fact, there were 106 entries at the 14 hours of Daytona last week. So you're not getting an open lap. What is rewarded is how well you can manage traffic and maintain consistent lap times even when you're having to pass on the outside through turn three. That's what's rewarded. And so I've really fallen in love with the concept. I mean, I'm an Indiana boy. I grew up on dirt tracks and asphalt ovals. I was on the bull rings for 20 years. And then a guy out at Howlett Motor Racing Circuit one time, he said, look, we got a sports car. We'd like you to try it. And we put together a deal. And I had no idea what I was doing. And we entered the GT2 class. And we went out and won the race. And I was like, I don't know how that happened. But I'm into winning. And sponsors are into winning. And so let's try it. And so sprint racing in SCCA style driving kind of morphed into endurance racing. And I've really found a home there that I like. It's a style of racing that I like. I've been fortunate to be very successful at it. You know, Whittenhour Racing basically carried me to the 2024 championship. You know, I was fortunate to be a part of a team that was probably going to win with or without me. Helped them win a couple of races at Nelson Ledges in Ohio. Then Gorilla Sticker Racing, Joe Bungert and the guys have just been super nice to me. We won there at Ozarks last year, which is a downright scary racetrack, but it's so fun. So I've just had, I've had good luck in endurance racing. It's what I love. And why quit if you're winning?

Speaker 4:
[17:55] Right. Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[17:56] But you're having fun.

Speaker 4:
[17:58] Yeah. Having fun, winning races, winning championships. When you when you when you ended with Mecum a few years ago, was was the intention to get more into racing? I mean, you know, 16 years on the air. That's that's a that's a long stint.

Speaker 5:
[18:16] It is it is. And, you know, the time had come to move on. I had several other things that were already in the works then. I had a one of my books had been optioned for a film, and the production company told me that they had a financier for the film. And so that was one big thing that was going at the time. Now, in the meantime, the financier left the production company, and it's probably not going to happen. But through the eyes of the moment, you know, dealing with the knowledge you have at that time, that was a big thing on my plate. Then I had, you know, a major sponsor, then JR Fastener Corporation out of Chicago came on board. And, you know, I actually, I remember, I stuck it. You guys remember John Cramon on the Mecum broadcast? He was the color guy that everybody was crazy about. And John and I were good friends, and we had dinner probably six or eight months after I left Mecum. And he asked me on the side, he goes, Hey, when you guys won the 24 or the 14 hours of Daytona, not the 24, the 14, there's a difference. He said, he goes, what kind of sponsorship money did you, and he was a close friend. So I told him and he said, you made more money there than you would have if you had to come to Kissimmee. And I was like, yeah, so, you know, exactly. And then I had already begun the early laying the foundation for starting a new American luxury watch brand for men. And so something had to go. And, you know, normally in October of every year, I would send a text, you know, or somebody to Mecham and say, hey, it's time to get on a new contract for the upcoming year. Well, I didn't. And then I put it off. And then I didn't. And then I put it off. And then I didn't. And they didn't call me. And so we eventually just parted ways. And it was the right thing at the right time because something had to go.

Speaker 4:
[20:16] Yeah, OK. Now, do you still follow the the collector car market?

Speaker 5:
[20:22] Or I do some I do some because I mean, I love cars, so I'll always follow it to an extent. And, you know, I'm a huge Fox body fan for the Ford Mustang. I've I've I'm a lifelong Fox body driver. I've got over probably a quarter of a million miles in Fox bodies. And so I keep track of that. What I have lost track of. Are the fads, and believe it or not, there are fads that possess the mind of car collectors, just like anybody else. I mean, we went through the Ford Bronco fad. It didn't matter what Bronco you had, right? Anybody would pay anything for it. And then you go through, what, the 21-window Volkswagen bus. You know, it's one fad after another. And then the cars go crazy in price, and then they disappear. I've kind of lost track of that part of the market, and I don't miss it.

Speaker 4:
[21:21] Yeah. I mean, right now, we're seeing, I think we're seeing more attention on modern-day supercars, right? That's happening. And it's not that those cars don't deserve it. Many of them do. And then also, we're seeing more in the 90s and even 2000s, but the 90s cars are really starting to move. I mean, I'm not saying they're at RM and they're getting $4 million, but you're starting to see a lot of those listings show up on Bring A Trailer and see them at Mecum Auction.

Speaker 5:
[21:56] It's the 40-year cycle, Matt.

Speaker 3:
[21:58] Yeah, you know, it's just like 20 years ago. It's based on age and the current generation. Thank you.

Speaker 5:
[22:05] 100%.

Speaker 4:
[22:06] So and I would add to that, it's the generation of people that can now afford those cars and they're sentimental to those cars and want them. But also a lot of older cars have priced out, right? They got too expensive and it's always been, we've said this a million times, the big brother car brings up the little brother car, right? The Mercedes Gullwing brings up the 190, right?

Speaker 3:
[22:36] Now, the one thing that I use a different analogy, the 190 is still probably worth like 12 bucks.

Speaker 4:
[22:43] Yeah. I mean, it's still something. It's something. Sorry. But the other thing that we're seeing is the wrapper cars, the low mile cars. And Bill's got a few and gets it, right? Gets it. I tried it. I tried it with one of the cars that were behind me in the photo with the SAC Mustang there. I tried getting my first low mile car. I can't really drive it. What is it going to do to the value? And I had to sell it because it was just too frustrating to not be able to drive it for me. Plus, I don't have a bunch. I don't have a bunch of cars to go.

Speaker 3:
[23:35] But 100%, that's the key. And you just touched on it. You have to have a bunch of cars to have the ability to point at one and say, Oh, I don't drive that because it's the first of the 501 Charge of Daytonas in 2020. And I don't have to use it because I have another one. Right. Extremely similar to it. That, to me, as a collector, that's the only way that I can attain that. So if you don't have more than enough cars, it's tough to pull that one off.

Speaker 4:
[24:07] It's tough. And certainly if you have the resources to go, hey, I'm going to get the new limited edition, whatever, right, you know, Hellcat or something and go, can I get two, you know, one to not drive and one to drive, that's great. And then there are some cars that come up where, you know, are kind of special. Like, of course, your Lawman Mustang, that one doesn't really get driven much, especially now after the really intense restoration it went through, but that is a special car that you would bring that out to the right event or the right military charity event or something like that, because that car can go out there and be appreciated by that audience, but also not something that gets driven quite that much, but that car is pretty special.

Speaker 3:
[24:57] But again, it's based upon the amount of cars that I have. I'm extremely fortunate to have more than one. The fact that I have 30 makes it easy to forget about one in the corner. I mean, it's just the reality of the situation. And as I said, if I have a car that I know I'm not going to drive, to satiate myself, I get one similar to it, if not the exact copy that I can drive, the TRX. I've got the number 95 of the first version. And I felt guilty about driving it, so I bought another TRX. So it makes it palatable. Now, when I give my current TRX to Gage, you bet your ass I'm driving number 95 as much as humanly possible. But I think it can only be done if you still are able to enjoy your collection while you look over in the corner and go, well, that one's not driven because of a reason.

Speaker 5:
[25:58] Yeah, well, the guys that buy these cars and then put them away, they're a different set of guys. Value equals scarcity plus utility. Now, these cars don't have any utility anymore. So the only thing they have going for them is scarcity. So for the guys who own three cars or four cars and they go buy a low mileage garage queen, they're going to be disappointed. It's not going to be a good experience for them because they're not taking advantage of the scarcity. They need the utility. Now for a guy who has been extremely successful, he's a business owner, he's got the money to do whatever he wants. His job is to leverage the scarcity against government's tendency to steal everything that you own. So if they can find a pile of money, they're going to find a way to take it. So he has to hide it. So he loves cars and he doesn't need the utility, but he does need the ability to keep it from being taken by government. So he puts it into that and then he gets 15 of them, and then he puts it under a 501C3 and calls it a museum. And at that point, he is completely protected from having his assets taken from him. He can enjoy owning the vehicles and he doesn't need the utility. So if you're not in that situation, you car collector at home, don't get your low mileage car. Listen to what Matt said. Don't get a low mileage car, don't do it.

Speaker 3:
[27:25] You're going to be sorry that you did. In one way, shape, or form. I mean, because I'm a pure at the end of the day, and I'm a collector at the end of the day, and I'm realistic about my expectations. But it all boils down to rekindling that kid in you that just loves to drive cars. So I can't do both of them at the same time. There's no way I'm keeping a car and not driving it.

Speaker 5:
[27:51] Right, right.

Speaker 3:
[27:52] It's just...

Speaker 5:
[27:54] Well, a car is an automobile, and that means automated mobilization. And if it's not mobilizing anything automatically, then it's not an automobile anymore. Now it's a museum piece.

Speaker 4:
[28:05] Yeah, then it's a piece of art.

Speaker 5:
[28:06] It's grammar, OK?

Speaker 4:
[28:08] Yeah, you're right. I mean, you might as well buy a painting or something else and hang it on your wall. That's what it is at that point. You know, recently that we saw, again, talking about the market, we saw at a big Mecum auction was that whole Ferrari collection go up there. And the numbers coming out of there were absolutely insane. And everybody sort of looked at it and said, you know, it was passion in the room and it was the, you know, whatever was going on that day. And, you know, some of them are the right color. And I was just like, yeah. And that wasn't necessarily the case. Like some of those pulled big money. And after that, other auctions were starting to see similar dollars. So there's a bubble there for some of those cars. Now, you do run the risk. And Stephen, I know you were kind of talking about this before, but you run the risk of a couple of people at an auction bidding up a car that's not necessarily worth it, at least not worth it yet. You know, I talk to people all the time that have vintage racing cars. They go, I want a million two for this car. And I go, okay, in six or seven years, you will get a million two for that car. It's just not there yet. So if you don't need it now, just wait it out. You're not there yet.

Speaker 3:
[29:31] That's out the window anymore. That's completely out the window because none of the logic, there's no logic that goes to it. It's all a fad. It truly is. That's my belief. I mean, Stephen, what do you think in what's happened the last three years with these auctions and these cars hitting the roof? Now granted, as you said, Matt, when it runs its course in six or seven years, yeah, we believe that it's worth it. But there's a group of people now that believe it's worth X right now. And so they set the standard. None of it makes sense.

Speaker 5:
[30:09] You know, it makes sense, Bill. If you stop and think to yourself, that's the only reason to hold an auction. If you want to definition ace value and market value out of your vehicle, and you want it right now, put it on Facebook Marketplace, it'll be gone tomorrow. If you are complaining about, well, you took it to an auction, and you had this artificial synthetic situation where there were two guys, and they got egos in the room, and they were going to outbid each other no matter why, and it goes to this insane price. Thank you. That's the reason you have an auction. There's no other reason to have an auction. We have Facebook Marketplace. That's the only reason an auction exists at all, is to create that situation. If you don't like that situation, turn off the auctions, don't ever watch another one, and just scroll Facebook Marketplace.

Speaker 4:
[31:06] Yes, yes, for sure. And so one of the things that have come up was, we saw this years ago where people, like you said, they kind of got excited. The one that, the example is the Toyota 2000 GT, which is the Japanese supercar, but it's not a lot of car compared to some of the Ferraris of that era, Lamborghinis of that era. Those cars are 12-cylinder aluminum body, more car compared to 6-cylinder and whatever. And that car got up to a million dollars. And when that car got up to a million dollars, we kind of looked at that and said, that's not a million dollar car. So, someone's gonna take a hurt. Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[32:00] It's a million dollar emotion and it's a million dollar story. If you were selling and you were pricing it per horsepower, obviously you'd have different winners. But at the end of the day, the first generation Toyota MR2 is one of the best. On the fun scale, forget horsepower. On the fun scale, it is a 10 out of 10 every single day I ever drove that car. A Datsun 240Z. If you get the four speed, the first early manuals, that's a 10 out of 10 on the fun scale every day, every mile in that car. And what you're paying for is the story, the history and the emotion of it. Because if you measure it by performance, then Pagani wins every time, don't they?

Speaker 4:
[32:55] Right, right. The MR2 you mentioned specifically and Bill talking about the audiences, the right age group. When we were all young, the MR2 was out there and you're like, this is kind of a fun, affordable, small car you can hit the track with. It's great. Right. And now that we're all older, there's an audience of our generation going, when is Toyota bringing back that nameplate? When are they going to bring back a small, lightweight MR2 type of car, mid-engine, that kind of thing? Because now there's demand for it. Now there's people speaking out going, why not having that? And also it helps when those cars value start to go up a little bit more. When you see Honda Prelude or the Acura Type R start getting bigger money at auctions and bring a trailer, then you go, why don't we bring that name played back? Why don't we get a new version of that? Right?

Speaker 3:
[33:52] You see immediately what the public wants.

Speaker 4:
[33:54] Yes, you do. You see it quickly. You see it very quickly. Which-

Speaker 3:
[33:58] Not quickly, it's immediate. With social media now, it is literally, right when it comes out of their mouth, everyone knows. It's amazing. It's just the landscape completely changed.

Speaker 4:
[34:08] And what's crazy is the car companies, they can't respond to that with that same immediacy because it takes them five years or more just to get a car developed. I mean, sure, you hear about Ford has a Skunk Works and that's where the Ford GT came from. And they did the whole thing with computer modeling. I don't want to say AI because that wasn't even a term when they started the GT. But they're saying, well, we didn't have the bureaucracy, so we were able to get this done in a couple of years and get a car out there. But OK, so you did it with one supercar, but can you do that with more mainstream vehicles? How do we get that timeline down?

Speaker 3:
[34:54] It's going to have to.

Speaker 5:
[34:56] Matt, most of those cars can't be built now. If you go back, and let's just take the example that you used, and people are looking at the first generation Toyota MR2, man, that was a great car. It weighed next to nothing. It didn't need a lot of horsepower. It had very thin doors. It was super lightweight. It got fantastic mileage. I get 38, 40 miles to a gallon out of it when I was driving the thing way too fast. Wow, let's build that again. The fact is, they can't, because you've got the NHTSA, you have mountains of prohibitive regulatory disasters that come down on a regular basis. If they wanted to rebuild that exact same car from the same molds, government would not let them market it and sell it because the A-pillars won't take the unlikely rollover that you're never going to have and on and on and on and on. The fact is, they would love to rebuild these cars. They have most of the original tooling to this day. They could fire it back up and in less than a year put these back on the market. The only thing that stands between the car customer and the car manufacturer is government. You can't do it.

Speaker 4:
[36:05] Yeah. All right. Let's take a break. We'll be right back. Quick reminder, if you're watching games this week, jump on FanDuel, whether it's NBA spreads, player props or same gay parlays, FanDuel makes it easy to get in on the action. Download the FanDuel app and place your first bet today. Years ago, we had Ian Callum. He's the designer, Jaguar, Aston Martin. He's doing his own design company now, I believe. We had an Aston Martin DB9 over there, and part of Adam's collection. Ian Callum was at the studio and we were looking at the DB9, and we had a couple of little modifications to it. He was critiquing them, scratching his chin. We'll see. He told me an interesting story. I said, you can't really make the car like this because look at the slope of that front end, how low it is, where it is, and now there's all these weird crash test rules. He said, when we did the DB9, you weren't allowed to make that car. He goes, and he said, that big plastic box that fits on the front of the car where the license plate goes, it's the big plastic holder that covers the grill of the car, and that's where you were supposed to put your front license plate on. He said, technically, that is the only way it would pass its crash test rate, and where it clips you in the shins, is with that thing on there. Once you take it off, it's not technically legal. All of those cars are supposed to be sold with that license plate. Now, of course, in the UK, it's the longer one than what we have here. We have the long thinner plate. It goes, that is, it's crash tested with that on it. Because you can't, when we're done with DB9, like, you can't do that again. We're never going to get away with that little loophole again. We're, you're never going to see that car again. And that wasn't that long ago. That was, you know, mid 2000s.

Speaker 5:
[38:04] Well, I mean, I was talking with Scott Hogue, who is Mecum's main anchor. And we had the same conversation one time. And I told him, I said, Scott, you're not buying the car of your dreams. You're not buying the car you want. If you're looking for a new car today, what you're going to buy is what the government will permit you to have, not what you want, what you want. They're not allowed to build. And when when car lovers grasp that situation and they and they accept that reality instead of trying to deny it, then maybe things will start to change.

Speaker 4:
[38:42] Yeah. Well, there is a little bit of light at the end of the tunnel for guys like us and Bill and I. And is we're not afraid to modify. We're not afraid to personalize. We're not afraid to make it around. We'll cut it up. We'll do what we want to. There's definitely some cars that that you don't want to, you know, don't want to touch because of certain history, maybe value, but certain history. But we could certainly appreciate, you know, just walk around the floor of the SEMA show and see what some of these amazing builders are doing. And fortunately for them, there are clients out there willing to spend, you know, a million dollars, two million dollars or more getting a, you know, a hand built, you know, at this point, really just a hand built car. You may start and go, you know, I want a Lincoln or I want an Aston Martin. And the only thing left is, you know, a piece of glass or a door handle or a VIN number or something. But you get this hand built car.

Speaker 5:
[39:49] And microbe guys are going crazy right now. And if you can sell two or three of those at a really, really solid price, now you got them out there. Now you've got your video, you've got your, you know, you got the advertising, you have what you need to start selling at least a handful of those and getting them out there. So I love going to SEMA just to watch, just to look for the stuff that you just mentioned.

Speaker 4:
[40:10] Yeah, for sure. And we go out there and to see that. And to talk to them. Yeah, I talk to the Ring brothers every year, but I talked to Troy Trepanier, talked about Chip Foose, talked about, you know, talk with a bunch of the builders that are out there doing these things. And yes, so we're seeing a couple of things is one, we are seeing more of these builders trying to do turnkey versions going, we're, you know, this is a carbon fiber Mustang or Camaro or something. And we would like to build five of these or ten of these, you know, in some cases more. But, you know, we'll do five or ten of these. And you can pick some options and stuff on it. It's good because you get that personalized, you know, custom built car and a company can actually make some money, make a living off of it while doing it. But then there's also we're starting to see some of the well built cars now get decent money later at auction. I mean, for the longest time, you know, Boyd cars would go up in auction and be like, you know, for the price you're paying at Barrett-Jackson, that's what it cost to machine the set of wheels that they were doing at the time. You know, now you buy the whole car. And then some of those cars have really kind of come back and changed the market. We've seen some Ring Brother cars go up at Barrett-Jackson. We've seen some old Boyd Coddington cars go up and get pretty decent money for them now. Maybe not quite what they were when they were new, and that's tough to get to. But it's nice to see some of those get recognized. So I like seeing those at auction.

Speaker 5:
[41:50] Yeah, and at that point, people are following the builder. It's Boyd Coddington, it's Gene Pontiac Trans-M, you guys know his last name, I can't think of it. But it's these guys that are actually selling the cars. It's their reputation.

Speaker 4:
[42:06] Yeah, for sure. And it's taken a while for some of these guys to do it. You know, they were hot rod builders before they were really kind of building businesses. You know, Boyd was one of the first to go, hey, we're a hot rod builder, but we need social media people. We need a PR person. We need content creation. We need to explain what this car is and how it came to be, and not just unveil it at a show, and go, here's, great, we're going to go for Grand National Roadster Award.

Speaker 3:
[42:41] With people having short attention spans these days, that's why they don't understand what they're looking at, because they don't give the time to investigate the history of the vehicle. It's, you know, every eight seconds, they have to see something fricking cooler, right? Yeah, I don't think the time has invested. Now, my question is, during that period when Boyd's cars and cars of that, you know, level quality, what were people thinking for those 10 years, or that period of time when they were bringing, you know, great money, and then they stalled for that period, and now they're bringing great money again. You know, so if you heard during that time, during that lag, man, you really made out.

Speaker 4:
[43:27] Right, you're right. People's attention, you know, like a fish. I see the next shiny thing, and I go to see that for, you know, but you know, it's nice to see some of those cars showed up at like the right collections in certain museums. But kind of thinking about it now, Stephen, what do you think is, I don't want to say that the next collector car or the future of collector cars, but there's got to be some things we should be maybe taking a look at as as potential collector cars.

Speaker 5:
[44:01] Well, first of all, get a C7 while you can. The last front engine Corvette, I just that still may be my all time favorite Corvette. The C7s were just magic. And I got a lot of time racing the C6s. And the 6s were just fast, straight out of the box. They didn't need you to go through and tinker with the suspension. The brakes held up even under track conditions. The C6 and the C7, I know it's the easiest thing to do is to look into the future and say, well, see, a Corvette will be valuable one day. Well, that's a self-fulfilling prophecy. We all know that. But these are underappreciated cars right now. They're at the bottom of their value curve. And they're gorgeous. And they're still in very good condition. You don't need to go back and take your C7 and restore it right now. It's still in good original condition in most cases. That's the one that just jumps out at me right now. And then there's other cars. I think people are starting to appreciate some of the Japanese cars, you know, the NSX. I mean, that was a super fast, amazing car. And that's 40 years old now, I mean, 35. It's been a long time and that's an early 90s model car. But that's starting to get some love. I think-

Speaker 4:
[45:23] Toyota Supra, Super Turbo.

Speaker 5:
[45:25] Yeah, the Supra, which could eat a Mustang and a Camaro and still have a Corvette for dessert back in its day. That was a fast car. So I think those cars are somewhat underappreciated as well right now.

Speaker 4:
[45:39] I would agree with that. A friend of mine the past several months now has recognized exactly what you just said on the Corvette C7 and has been buying up a handful of them. Not 10, but two, three, maybe looking at four. And looking at going, oh, what are the looking into like, is it maybe Z06, maybe the right spec, maybe ZR1s are already, C7 ZR1s are already getting really expensive. But looking at the right spec of car and going, this is low miles. It's super clean. Nobody drove it. It's like it's kind of a steal right now.

Speaker 5:
[46:21] And well, the ZR1s are going to drag just the your garden variety Corvettes up with it over time. So they're going to be the first ones to be scooped up. I wouldn't even worry about them. The car is fast enough anyway. They're just there's more car there than there is the average driver to handle anyway. So just buy yourself a really strong, good horsepower C7. Try to find yourself a manual transmission and just go have fun with the thing and put miles on it now and don't worry about it. It'll build its own value later. Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[46:59] What do you think the production numbers have to do with the value of that being the next car?

Speaker 5:
[47:07] They have some impact on it, but look how many times we've sat in an auction and you see a car that was not produced in any limited numbers whatsoever. Take a 1970 Camaro, okay? You got a Gen 2 Camaro and you got two guys in the room and they both love that gorgeous shade of deep metallic blue and they're going crazy over it. And they built a blue million of those things. You know, the Gen 2 Camaro was with us probably for too long. Honestly, they probably built the car for three or four more years longer than they should have. But you still have guys that go crazy over it. So, my feeling has always been, if you have to sell the car based on the limited number of them that were built, you've got a weak case. You're trying to use statistics to appeal to emotion. Emotion is what spends money, not statistics.

Speaker 4:
[48:07] I agree with that. I think if the value of the car is completely based off of its low miles or its low production number, or even last production number, something, right? If it's just based off of that, that's too volatile. It's tough. But if there's more to the car, and you're right, and in the right room, that production number might be special to somebody. Somebody may go, I've been buying up cars for years, maybe not the most valuable cars in the world, but I've always wanted low production number of cars. I want to say, Bo Bachman at Galpin, when he's got a hell of a collection in a museum over there as well, at Galpin Ford, and he did the math, and he was just like, yeah, somebody at Ford gets number one, and Jay Leno gets number two or whatever, and he just came up with a number one day. I don't know if it was him. It might have been before him, his dad, and said, we just like the nine, and whenever possible, a new car would come out and he would go to Ford and go, well, I'm your number one dealer, you're marked number nine for me. Now he's got a museum of number nine or whatever. I don't know exactly what number it is, but there was a number that they picked, and they ended up getting a bunch of those. It just doesn't talk about it, doesn't brag about it. It came up in one of our interviews once, and how many they were in there, but it's not like advertised. It's just something more internally. They just had this emotional kind of thing to it. So, yeah, and it's worth something to someone.

Speaker 5:
[49:49] In a modern context, ask yourself, so far as the limited production of the entire run, ask yourself what that really means, because, and here's the sense that I mean that in. If you like the Ford Mustang Boss 429, okay, you got 1969, you got 1970, you got very, very limited production runs, but all those cars still don't exist. But if somebody finds a chassis of one at some Iowa junkyard somewhere, there's gonna be one more next year than there was this year.

Speaker 4:
[50:26] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[50:26] But there won't be any fewer. No matter how bad somebody wrecks it or it gets hit by lightning, they're gonna be restored. So you're gonna find Boss 429 numbers may eke up slowly over time. However, look at the 1971 Ford Torino. How many of those cars survived? Not very many at all. There's very, very few of them out there, but there were a million of them back in the day. Your grandma drove a four door Torino from 1971. How many two doors with big block V8s are still out there? So the production numbers really are only meaningful in the sense of modern context. You have very, very, very few survivors from a 1971 Ford Torino, but there's gonna be more Shelby's and GTs because every time somebody finds a chassis, they're gonna rebuild around it. So what do those production numbers really mean to you today?

Speaker 3:
[51:25] For a planner.

Speaker 4:
[51:27] Yeah, right.

Speaker 3:
[51:30] I mean, there's a lot that goes into it for damn sure.

Speaker 4:
[51:34] All right, so Stephen, tell us what's in your garage these days.

Speaker 5:
[51:39] I have a 1980 Ford Mustang and it is nicknamed Blue Thunder. And I bought that car when I was 17 years old. I'm the second owner. I dated my wife in that car. It's sort of the car of my life. And of course, when I bought it, I was a kid. I didn't know that I was buying what would eventually be recognized as one of the least valuable Mustangs ever. Who knew? It was 1982. What did you know then? So I decided to rebuild that car the way I felt Ford should have done it to begin with. And Stifler's Engineering out of Mooresville, Indiana came on board. And McGonagall Engines out of Muncie, Indiana helped me out. I got a 347-stroker. McGonagall actually built my stock car engines for the, I think the 2012 through 2014 season, somewhere in there. And I was hugely impressed. So whenever I needed a small block Ford, guess who I went to? Cold Case Aluminum Radiators came on board. And so now it's the car that I kept thinking in my head, I was buying when I was 17, you know? Now it's over 400 horsepower. It doesn't even weigh 3000 pounds. It established the first lap record for a licensed Fox body at Nelson Ledges Road Course about a year and a half ago. And I have loved Fox bodies my entire life. There's a 1990 Fox body that needs a rebuild out there right now. Oh, hey, you found, huh, look at that. You found the new interior. I just put that in. And again, I told you guys, I'm no mechanic. And believe me, I am not, but I can do the interior. As a kid, I didn't know that I couldn't do it. And so I tore everything out of the interior over and over and over. And I kind of got to where I was, you know, pretty good at the interior. So did the interior with myself and a couple of friends. Then I also have a second Fox body out there that needs rebuilding. Then let's see. I have a 2003 first year. BMW Z4, and oh, what a gorgeous car. It is so beautiful. And then those are my two daily drive. Both of those cars get driven and driven a lot. Then I have two motorcycles, a Suzuki V-Strom, which is all set up for long distance road travel and adventure motorcycling. And then I've got what I consider the most beautiful motorcycle built in the history of ever. And that is the Bonneville T100 from Triumph. And it is the retro version. It's based on the 1959, except it's all modern parts. And what a gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous motorcycle. So whenever I go out in the morning, I'll tell you, this is like a big deal to me. I don't have 30 cars, but everything I have is ready to run. And I can go out in my five bay garage in the morning, and it's like a woman going to her closet to see a pair of shoes, okay? And there's like an ocean of shoes here. And it's like, what do I feel like today? Do I want a European true roadster with open air experience? Do I want a Ford Mustang with this nasty, vicious horsepower and upgraded suspension and everything? Do I want to go motorcycling? If I want to go motorcycling, do I want classic or ADV? I love that. Every day, when I go to the gym in the morning, I walk out in my garage and it's like a smorgasbord.

Speaker 4:
[55:22] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[55:23] That's the dream.

Speaker 4:
[55:25] To be able to go out and pick based off your mood, based off the weather, just where you want to go, just any of that is nice. To be able to have that is quite the luxury for sure.

Speaker 5:
[55:36] And I rotate through them every now and then. And you hear me talking about Datsun 240s because I've had them. Had a 260, which they only made for about 18 months. Then I had a Toyota MR2 first generation, which again is why I was speaking about it earlier on. I've rotated through a bunch of cars, probably not as many as some of you guys because I tend to get married to cars. I really, if I really like it, I hang on to it. I'll drive the same car for five, 10 years. So, you know, I keep a small garage, but well maintained, ready to go all the time. And I, then every 10 years or so, I'll turn them over. I've had Miata's and, you know, all the other fun stuff, but that's what's out there right now.

Speaker 4:
[56:20] Awesome. I love it. I think to be able to go out and just go into the garage and pick something that, you know, is going to work, it's going to run. Having so many projects that we've stared at and can't finish or get to or time or money and just go, ah, what's going on? You know, that oftentimes sell them off. But real quick, before we wrap up, I know you mentioned a watch company. This maybe we're not quite there yet, but it is something we're working on. So why don't you just tell us a little bit about that? Because there's a story there.

Speaker 5:
[56:56] We're there. Yeah, I have an oddball interest that I've never pursued professionally. I don't know how you would, but I have always loved aviation, especially fighter airplanes, from World War I and to some extent World War II. Just crazy about them. I've been to France nine times with a shovel in one hand and a metal detector in the other and doing all kinds of research, and it's just something that I really, really enjoy. And so I started thinking around 2018, 2019, what can I do with, because I've always loved watches since I was a kid, I've always just been crazy about watches. What can I do that is substantially different from what luxury watch companies are doing today? And I thought, you know, I can get stuff that nobody else can get. And I can get, for instance, there was an airplane called the Newport 28, which was America's first fighter airplane in World War I. And I actually found three or four cylinders from that airplane. The rest of the airplane was wooden fabric and they don't survive. And we take these metals and we recast them into watch cases. And there's a foundational difference between everything we do at Sopwith Watch Company and everything that everybody else in the watch industry does. You'll find several companies out there, and they're doing a good job at this. They will take a small piece of a famous car or an airplane or something like that, they'll incorporate that into a watch. We don't do that. They do it very well. We don't need to. For us, the entire watch case is the airplane. We recast that steel into the shape of a watch case and then we put the watch movement inside it. And so if you want a watch that is literally made from the behind-the-pilot's-head cockpit armor of a Messerschmitt Bf 109 from 1944, we've got it for you. And we sell to collectors and it is a high-end luxury product that we can meet in that financial strata. And we also just wrapped up. I'll give you some news. I'll give you guys some news. Okay, we just wrapped up a deal with Richard Petty. Was over at Petty's Garage in North Carolina. And in my garage right now, sitting right in front of my Triumph Bonneville, our four rear gear sets from Richard Petty's Chrysler products that he drove at Talladega and Daytona in the late 60s and early 1970s. And that's going to be our next run of racing chronograph watches. They're sitting out there right now. So that's what is keeping me busy. That's what I love. That's number one in life right now. That is a huge investment. And it's something I'm looking forward to see this come to maturity. We're in the pre-order phase right now. And sometime in the next 30 to 60 days, we should have product completely ready to go.

Speaker 4:
[60:28] Tell us again where we can find it.

Speaker 5:
[60:31] Go to sopwithwatch.com, S-O-P-W-I-T-H, like the old airplane, sopwithwatch.com, and just scroll down. We make all of our own films. We have, in fact, a brand new film that's coming out in Watch Time magazine on Friday morning. So, we're doing something, I didn't see any point whatsoever in coming out with a standard stainless steel watch with a Swiss movement and entering into the luxury watch space. It's already crowded. Go buy a Rolex. There's no shortage. But we wanted to do something that foundationally changed. What, we wanted a watch with an identity. That's the best way to say it. If you buy a luxury watch from another company, great watches. But that steel has no identity. It comes in a rod. It's sent across the ocean from Asia somewhere. They bring it in, they melt it down and it could become a transmission. It could become a dental instrument. It could become a weed eater. That steel could be anything, but it has no identity. Ours does. So it's the story that you're acquiring. The truth of the matter is, it's the story, because you can find a digital watch at Walmart for $50. It'll tell the time. It's the story that we're selling.

Speaker 4:
[61:54] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[61:55] Your watches have history to them.

Speaker 5:
[61:57] Yeah, it does. It does.

Speaker 3:
[61:59] My brother's a watch collector and he has a T34 that he does aerobatics in. So you cater to the same, it's the same crowd.

Speaker 5:
[62:09] Exactly. And if you're wearing a Sopwith watch, unless you happen to have scored three aerial victories in Iraq in 1993, you have the best story at the bar for the rest of your life, bar none.

Speaker 4:
[62:25] Right. Right. Right. Awesome. I love it. I think it's a great idea. Like you said, you're selling that story. And listen, every time we go to a car auction and we are looking at those cars up on the block, it's the story, right? It's the story behind that car. So I have with the with the product. Whatever it is, I get it completely. I definitely appreciate that. Stephen, thanks so much for coming on the show. We're running out of time now, but fantastic. Good luck with the watch company. Can't wait to see out there on the track. You guys can give them a follow on Instagram as well. Remind us what your Instagram is.

Speaker 5:
[63:07] Let's see. I don't know. I'm on Facebook at Stephen Cox. Just look up Stephen Cox Racing Driver. I've got an Instagram, but all my stuff from Facebook bounces over to it. If you look up Stephen Cox on Instagram, you'll find me. We've got quite a few followers there, so it's not hard to find. If you need to route around, just look up Stephen Cox Racing Driver on Facebook, and it will route you through to it. Then I've got a link tree, actually. Hang on a second. I've got my link tree right here. Stephen's official Instagram. Hang on. You would think I would know this wouldn't I? At Sopwith Motorsports.

Speaker 4:
[63:49] Sopwith Motorsports.

Speaker 5:
[63:51] Yes.

Speaker 4:
[63:51] Yes. There you go. All right, guys, thanks so much. Bill, thanks for joining us. I know you were busy this morning, but I appreciate you coming in and hopping in with us.

Speaker 3:
[64:02] I'm picking this up.

Speaker 4:
[64:04] Oh, yeah.

Speaker 3:
[64:05] Paper work for a firearm these days is like buying a vehicle.

Speaker 5:
[64:08] Yeah. Hang on. Don't go yet, Bill. I want to see that. What?

Speaker 3:
[64:14] It's a little Glock.

Speaker 5:
[64:16] Oh, yeah. Yeah. Nine mil or 40?

Speaker 3:
[64:19] It's a nine.

Speaker 5:
[64:20] Okay.

Speaker 3:
[64:22] I had to deliver two Desert Eagles because I'm getting them both Saracota to match each other so I can do the Clint Eastwood things.

Speaker 5:
[64:30] Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[64:30] Right.

Speaker 5:
[64:30] Or the Desert Eagle. The Desert Eagle. Is that a 50?

Speaker 3:
[64:34] Yes, sir.

Speaker 4:
[64:35] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[64:35] Yeah. That's not a 45. I think it's a 50, isn't it?

Speaker 4:
[64:37] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[64:38] Yeah. Yeah. I've never fired one.

Speaker 4:
[64:41] I've seen the videos. I've seen the videos of Bill firing that thing.

Speaker 3:
[64:45] And imagine Bill firing two at once. Well, 500 with about a 12 inch barrel. And then I had the Desert Eagle in the other hand, and I did the double, double shot thing. But I, but I do, I work with Magnum Research for about five years. And if you're a gun guy, they provided me the biggest finest revolvers. If you look online, they provided me with a wheel gun that shoots 45-70.

Speaker 5:
[65:17] That's got to be fun. You need a backstop for you, not the bullet.

Speaker 3:
[65:22] It's the most beautiful gun I've ever shot. It doesn't give you the kick that you would think that it would. I think it's a 10 3⁄4 inch barrel, but I've got a 460 that will blow your wrist off. But the...

Speaker 5:
[65:39] That 10 inch barrel is really going to use up a lot of that felt recoil. So that helps a lot. And I'm a Walther guy. I still think even though they don't make it anymore, the Walther P99 to me is the finest gun ever made. I've got like three of them in the closet right now behind me. I'm crazy about them. Anyway, love that. That's a beautiful Glock.

Speaker 3:
[66:01] Yes, sir. I appreciate it very much.

Speaker 4:
[66:02] Yeah, well, congratulations on that.

Speaker 3:
[66:04] It was a pleasure talking with you this morning, Stephen. Thank you.

Speaker 4:
[66:08] All right, guys. Thanks so much. And we will be back next week. And until then, keep the air in the spare and the bag in the wheel.

Speaker 5:
[66:17] If you liked the show, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe. It really does help the show to grow. Thank you for listening.