transcript

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
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Speaker 3:
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Speaker 2:
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Speaker 3:
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Speaker 2:
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Speaker 4:
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Speaker 2:
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Speaker 5:
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Speaker 4:
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Speaker 6:
[01:30] Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Snark Bait. I'm Christy. How are you?

Speaker 7:
[01:35] I am hot. I was just telling Christy that it is a heat wave in New York right now. Very out of character for April. It's like 90 degrees and they haven't turned the air on in my apartment building. So it is literally a steam room in my apartment. It is so freaking hot and Henry e-mailed our building and was like, when are you guys turning on the air? This is ridiculous. They said not until mid-May, so we still have another month. But it's supposed to go back down to the 50s next week, so it's New York weather for you.

Speaker 6:
[02:10] Oh my gosh, I could not handle it. Speaking of Henry, this Saturday, a couple of weeks ago by the time this airs, it's Saturday at 10.30 and I'm a little hungover because I talked about this before. I had a friend in town, so we went out, whatever. Henry's like, hey, he left me a voicemail, I think, first. I think he left me.

Speaker 7:
[02:30] No, yeah, he left you a voicemail, I think.

Speaker 6:
[02:32] Hey, just about business stuff, call me back. Thanks, Henry. I'm like, oh, okay. Sophie's nowhere to be found. I'm just talking to him, having a full conversation. I don't know where you were. Like, were you in the room?

Speaker 7:
[02:43] I think I was like, tell her I say hi. And he like, yeah, full on conversation, Christy, Henry, you guys talk and chop.

Speaker 6:
[02:51] About business expenses, et cetera, et cetera. Her usual. So funny. So yeah, I was just in my mind. I was like, kind of hungover. I was like, okay, yeah, no, that sounds fine. Yeah, just charge it to the car. Yeah, okay, later. But I was like, wait, I wonder if Sophie's there. Like you, I think you probably were, but like just no acknowledgement.

Speaker 7:
[03:05] I was like in the other room in the background somewhere. I was like, how do I say it? I feel like Amanda Petula having like Kyle Cook handle all of my business expenses.

Speaker 6:
[03:14] Right, like doing your taxes.

Speaker 7:
[03:16] Guys, but let's just say I was an independent woman before. Yeah, I did my taxes by like since I'm 22.

Speaker 6:
[03:24] You don't, and the thing is, you still are an independent woman. It's just you have, you have help too. And that's the best of both worlds. Like you can get it done if you need to.

Speaker 7:
[03:32] I have the help, Henry.

Speaker 6:
[03:33] Yeah, yeah, no, I-

Speaker 7:
[03:35] I was joking about, oh wait, sorry, do you hear that?

Speaker 6:
[03:38] No.

Speaker 7:
[03:39] Oh, one second, pause, sorry.

Speaker 6:
[03:40] Okay, we'll just keep it running. Hello.

Speaker 7:
[03:42] Oh. Hi, I'm good, how are you? Yeah, that's fine. Okay, thank you.

Speaker 6:
[03:46] Partic just removed this.

Speaker 7:
[03:47] Okay, sorry.

Speaker 6:
[03:48] No, you're fine. I don't even know what we're talking about.

Speaker 7:
[03:51] Where was I? Oh yeah, we joked about cloning Henry for Christy, so she could have her own little assistant.

Speaker 6:
[04:00] I genuinely would love the help. Yeah, you know what, I was thinking, I love my life and I like doing whatever I want, when I want, etc. There are two reasons why I would really love a partner in my 30s. Number one, when I've had health skitters at night, it's incredibly frightening to be alone and not have anyone to help you. Or like, I've had like stuff going on in the past couple of years. I think it really comes from stress and my body does not respond well to it. But in the middle of the night, I'll have like vasovagal syncope, I think it's what it's called. But basically, it's when your blood pressure like falls and you get very lightheaded and dizzy and you faint. And that's happened to me like once. It happened to me one time in SF and I had roommates, fortunately. But here, it's incredibly scary. And then if I'm too weak to like reach for my phone, I'm like, how am I to call for help? So that's really scary. And number two, I'm getting my house like enhanced. There's a couple of things I'm doing in my house. Enhanced. Enhanced. Like a medical procedure. And I'm like, God, it would be really nice to split the cost with someone, just like 50 percent of it. But those are really the top reasons why I think I would really like to be.

Speaker 7:
[05:14] That's it. It's like, what can you do for me?

Speaker 6:
[05:18] What can you do if I'm having a medical emergency at night and to split the cost of just being an adult in the state of California or just being an adult period?

Speaker 7:
[05:26] I still can't believe you haven't watched Sex in the City.

Speaker 6:
[05:29] I know. Which one would I be?

Speaker 7:
[05:31] Well, I was just thinking about Miranda, how there's a scene where Miranda, she is, she has a come to Jesus moment about how if she were to choke on her Chinese food alone, living alone, she was like, no one would ever find me.

Speaker 6:
[05:44] Yeah. Definitely. I have enough people I talk with on a regular basis, on a daily basis, that would probably knock on my door. But to your point, they wouldn't come home after work and then find me, you know?

Speaker 7:
[05:56] Yeah. No. I mean, with all of my single friends too. I'm like, I talk to them enough where I'm like, I would notice. Don't worry. I would notice.

Speaker 6:
[06:03] Totally.

Speaker 7:
[06:04] Christy, if you don't answer me for like 10 minutes, I'm like, something's wrong.

Speaker 6:
[06:09] No, wait, Sophie, ping. Ping. You there? Ping. After though, when I was a couple of weeks ago, when the West Vanderval thing was happening and they released that joint statement, I was at work on a meeting with my boss and for once, you're going to hate this, I had my Apple watch on and I rarely wear it. I just happened to have it and I saw it and my heart was pounding. I was like, get the fuck out of my office. I need to know what's happening. Something is seriously amiss and I couldn't answer you and it was absolute torture. But that was the one time I feel like I didn't answer you.

Speaker 7:
[06:39] Yeah. Literally the one time I know exactly when you're talking.

Speaker 6:
[06:42] Yeah.

Speaker 7:
[06:42] Speaking of life partners, Lisa Vanderpump.

Speaker 6:
[06:45] Oh my gosh. Do we have a lot to talk about when it comes to Lisa Vanderpump and Ken Todd? Sophie and I have both watched Beverly Hills for years. I know Sophie no longer watches the current seasons, but there's no need to. The OG seasons with Vanderpump are the golden seasons. The best. But Vanderpump is known to kind of be one of the most goaded housewives of the entire franchise. I think that Bethany once said that if you were to do a Mount Rushmore of housewives, it would be her, Teresa Giudice, Lisa Vanderpump. Neenie. Neenie Leakes. Yes.

Speaker 7:
[07:17] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[07:18] Would you agree that Lisa Vanderpump deserves her go title?

Speaker 7:
[07:21] I think so. I would say so. There are a lot of things that she has done that I don't enjoy, I don't endorse, but I cannot deny that she was a credible housewife. I definitely liked her better on Housewives than I did on Vanderpump Rules.

Speaker 6:
[07:35] Likewise. By the way, does my mic sound okay? I know we had some issues.

Speaker 7:
[07:37] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6:
[07:38] Okay. Yeah, I completely agree. I think that Erika clocked her really well. One of her first seasons, her freshman season.

Speaker 7:
[07:45] Sniper from the side.

Speaker 6:
[07:46] Yes. She called her a sniper from the side. And I think that is the perfect description of Lisa Vanderpump. If you guys are at all familiar with the franchise or just know her lightly from Vanderpump Rules, she is the type of housewife who will let every other single person do her dirty work and just watch in with her popcorn. She does not care who she takes down, how close she was with them. She will use everyone else as a puppet and she is the puppeteer and she does it splendidly. And she's also incredibly fabulous. And I think before doing this episode, I knew she had a lot of her wealth from restaurant touring, from being a restaurateur with her husband, Ken Todd. They had a couple of, not a couple, many a restaurant and bar in London before they moved to Los Angeles, but she's really acquired a lot of wealth from that, which I feel like is shocking because when you're in the restaurant business, usually something that people always say, don't get into the restaurant business, you're going to go broke, it's never going to work out. But I think Ken and Lisa are an example of it working out really well.

Speaker 7:
[08:38] Which is, it is crazy how rich they are just from restaurants.

Speaker 6:
[08:43] There are some pieces we're going to go through about why their finances are a bit puzzling. The fact that they own tens of million dollars of houses, but then took out a $20 million loan. People that have wealth don't need to take out loans that size, unless you're hurting for liquidity or you're hurting for cash. So, let's get into her background, like who is she as an overview of her early life, her stint on Real Housewives, Vanderpump rules, the financial scandals and just scandals. Remember Cedric from season one?

Speaker 7:
[09:11] Yes. Oh my God.

Speaker 6:
[09:13] Yeah. So Cedric, we'll get into that towards the end, but I didn't really know how crazy of an issue it actually ended up being and how much he struggled after Real Housewives and how much his name was kind of tarnished after he did Ken and Lisa wrong, but it's really dark-sided actually.

Speaker 7:
[09:29] Wow.

Speaker 6:
[09:29] We'll get into it. So Lisa Vanderpump was born September 15th, 1960 in Dulwich, London, making her 65 years old today. She actually was a British child actress, which I had no idea about. She owns an animal rescue called the Vanderpump Dogs, which led to the demise of her friendship with Kyle being called out as the puppeteer, which led to the iconic Goodbye, Kyle by Ken Todd. She's opened many a business in LA and even more in Vegas. Let's talk about her early life. Her father was named John Vanderpump, and he was an advertising art director. Lisa had one older brother. His name was Mark. He was a DJ and a businessman, but we learned towards the end of her stint on Real Housewives that Mark sadly died by suicide. This was a big controversy, and I think why the audience turned on all of the ladies on the Housewives cast was because when Lisa was going through the horridness of her brother's passing, they really were piling on to her when I don't think that was necessarily right. She was breathing. So Lisa is of Dutch origin and she's been rooted. Her family has had roots in England since the 18th century, and she's a love of the arts.

Speaker 7:
[10:35] Wait, sorry. How can you not be famous with the last name Vanderpump? It's so crazy that that's her last name.

Speaker 6:
[10:42] It is such an iconic name, and interestingly enough, when she married Ken Todd, she made it a point to not take his last name because she said, my name is so iconic.

Speaker 7:
[10:51] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[10:52] Yeah. So she's a lover of the arts. She started ballet at the age of three. She enrolled at the Corona Academy Drama School at the age of nine, and by 19 years old, she was financially independent and she had a flat in Fulham in West London. And it was at this time that she had an abusive boyfriend. I don't know much about that, but she's gone through some trials and tribulations even at a young age.

Speaker 7:
[11:11] Yeah, she talked about that on Housewives.

Speaker 6:
[11:13] Do you remember that? Because I was like trying to think about this. I was like, wait, I don't remember.

Speaker 7:
[11:17] I just remember it being brushed on.

Speaker 6:
[11:19] Maybe when the domestic violence allegations against Russell and Taylor, maybe she shared her side. If you guys remember, let us know. But she had an accredited role when she was 13 in the 1973 Oscar-winning film A Touch of Class, opposite Glenda Jackson.

Speaker 7:
[11:35] This picture is crazy because it's literally her face, even though she's only 13. Obviously, it's her face, but she looks the same.

Speaker 6:
[11:42] Yes. It's so funny because she looks even younger than 13. She looks like eight to me in this photo, but I don't even have a sense of what 13 is vs. eight these days. It's always a big question mark. But yeah, she looks so cute, but it is Vanderpump in a tiny body. She was in a number of other films. She even starred alongside Naomi Campbell on ITV's Kids in 1979, and she also did a bunch of commercials. So let's talk about her relationship with Ken Todd. In May 1982, Lisa met Ken, and it was when she was dropping her brother Mark off at a London nightclub where he was working as a DJ, which happened to be owned by Ken, who was 15 years her senior. And Ken had been previously married to a model named Pamela Ann Wilson in 1965 when he was just 19 years old. And Ken and his ex-wife Pamela share a son together, and his name is Warren Bradley Todd. So Lisa and Ken met in 1996, and Lisa's stepson, which is like kind of gross, is only six years younger than Lisa Vanderpump. Imagine that.

Speaker 7:
[12:39] Wait, 19, 19, not 1996.

Speaker 6:
[12:42] 19.

Speaker 7:
[12:43] No, her, the stepson was born in 1966.

Speaker 6:
[12:45] Yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry, sorry. The stepson was born in 1966, so just six years after Lisa Vanderpump was born. Can you imagine your stepmom being six years older than you? At 19 years old. So Lisa says, We met Warren when he was 15 and I was 21. As Ken explained, he was married briefly for two years at 19 to a young wife who wasn't prepared for the challenging job of being a mother. So then he fought for custody of their only child. And this is how they met. She's dropping Mark off at the London nightclub and Ken approaches her and he goes, Give me your number. Actually, you know what? I'm not gonna get it because I think I'm gonna fall in love with you. Which I feel like in this day and age going out, men will say crazy things to you. And if someone said this to me or one of my girlfriends, I would be like, run for the hills. Like that's so bizarre, but they kind of proved everyone wrong. They got engaged after six weeks and married within three months on August 28th, 1982. And for their shared businesses, they kind of play off of one another's strengths. So Lisa handles aesthetics, design, being photographed, and Ken handles the licenses and operations. I feel like I'm kind of the Ken and you're the Lisa.

Speaker 7:
[13:51] Yeah, I would.

Speaker 6:
[13:51] You know, you're definitely like aesthetics, design, creative, marketing.

Speaker 7:
[13:55] Brand of pass.

Speaker 6:
[13:56] Yeah, exactly. So between 1982 to 2005, that's where she really acquired her fortune, with Ken. So it all began with a small wine bar in Kensington, which is where the area in London where they actually met. And spanning across two decades, they opened 30 plus venues, including the Shadow Lounge, which is a gay bar, Bar Soho and a Cheers themed bar. And their first attempt at an LA expansion failed. So they were like, hey, we're doing really well in London. Let's move over to LA and see how we do. They attempted to open a couple of pizza joints in Northridge, which is part of the valley. It's like north of LA. And the 1994 Northridge earthquake destroyed three of Ken's four pizza restaurants. So that ended up being a total bust, and both Ken and Lisa retreated back to England. And they decided, hey, we love London. I mean, excuse me, we love LA. We're going to leave London and go to LA. So in 1998, they sold four of their London bars for $10.5 million, which is about pounds, and that's about $16 million. And as The Hollywood Reporter reported, Hollywood Reporter reported their most popular establishment sale financed basically their lifestyle for when they moved to LA. So they're like, we have 10.5 million books in the bank, let's move to LA and do it big. And this was their biggest liquidity event ever in the history of their restaurant sales. So in 2004, let's talk about the real estate. Remember the first house that they lived across from Adrienne Maloof, the Maloof Hoof?

Speaker 7:
[15:26] Oh, it wasn't...

Speaker 6:
[15:28] Villa Rosa.

Speaker 7:
[15:29] Villa, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6:
[15:31] Remember, it was literally adjacent to Maloof.

Speaker 7:
[15:35] It's been so long since I watched season one, but yes, I do remember that vaguely.

Speaker 6:
[15:39] I remember when Adrienne Maloof wanted to learn how to cook. So Lisa Vanderpump went in her heels right across the gates.

Speaker 7:
[15:44] And she washed the chicken with dish soap.

Speaker 6:
[15:46] Yeah, Adrienne Maloof literally took a whole ass chicken and started rubbing it with dish soap. And Vanderpump was like, darling, that's not how you do it. But that was a beautiful, beautiful house. I remember being like, Villa Rosa sucks compared to this first house. But in any case, they purchased that home for $14 million and then later sold it in an off market transaction for $4.8 million more than what they bought it. And in 2011, that same year, when they sold the first house, they purchased Villa Rosa for 11.95 million that same year. And I didn't realize how large of an estate this was because I feel like when we're watching it on TV, you don't really have an appreciation for like the entire acres of property, but it stood on two acres of land, 8,800 square feet, five bedrooms, eight bathrooms. The annual property tax bill was over $100,000. They also owned property in Montecito, which is in like Santa Barbara County, as well as a villa in France. So they are just real estate tycoons as well for owning huge properties in one of the most coveted zip codes in the US. Let's talk about their income stream. So from Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, she was earning half a million dollars per season through season nine. So I think she was definitely one of the most highest paid Beverly Hills Housewives outside of Kyle Richards. Her Vanderpump rule salary on the other hand was 50K per episode. And she of course has restaurant revenue from Sir, Villa Blanca, which shuttered in 2020, and Tom Tom, which we now know is up for sale. They officially marked it up for sale this year in 2026.

Speaker 7:
[17:17] It's crazy that she was getting 50K per Vanderpump episode because it's not like she does anything.

Speaker 6:
[17:22] Nothing. She was literally kind of like Chris Harrison to The Bachelor, how he would show up but get paid super handsomely more than anyone else on the set because he was the consistent figure throughout that entire show. But yeah, you're right. He just chilled. But truly the best gig you could ever get. You're not involved in the drama at all, but you're getting paid. Like, I would love that.

Speaker 7:
[17:40] And I also get that it's like her restaurant, her name. Like, I get that, but it's just, yeah, what a gig.

Speaker 6:
[17:46] Yeah, and for the earlier seasons of Vanderpump rules, she was definitely kind of the like mother hen to like mother figure for all these young hot things in LA trying to make it. They were in their 20s, some of them late 20s. In Jax's case, early 30s. And she was kind of this guiding light to all of these mactors. But as we went on to the later seasons, we kind of realized this is a little bit odd that she's so intertwined in their lives. But I guess it is for the show, but regardless, it's a little bit bizarre that a 60-some-odd woman is so intertwined with these 20-year-olds. She also has a couple of business ventures like Vanderpump wines, Vanderpump vodka, as I mentioned before, Vanderpump pets. And I remember in, I think, like 2018, one of my girlfriends from my work, she gave me Vanderpump rose for my birthday. And I thought that was the most thoughtful gift, because she doesn't watch Housewives at all, but she went out of her way to go to Cost Plus Market to purchase Vanderpump rose, and it wasn't very good. Have you ever tried it?

Speaker 7:
[18:36] I don't think so, but that does not surprise me.

Speaker 6:
[18:38] Remember when Rinna tried to release Rinna rose?

Speaker 7:
[18:42] Oh my god.

Speaker 6:
[18:43] And Vanderpump was like, you're copying me, darling.

Speaker 7:
[18:46] That's so funny. What is with Howl's Wife needing to have booze companies? Like Lisa Marlowe, Vita Tequila.

Speaker 6:
[18:55] It's such a hard industry to break into because there's so much regulation. I feel like that would be, I don't know. I wouldn't want to do that.

Speaker 7:
[19:01] What's Kathy Hilton's again?

Speaker 6:
[19:03] Isn't hers Tequila Sun? Wait, let me look at it. Casa del Sol.

Speaker 7:
[19:09] Casa del Sol.

Speaker 6:
[19:10] Yeah, I forgot about that.

Speaker 7:
[19:11] Tequila Sun.

Speaker 6:
[19:12] Yeah, it was close. It was close.

Speaker 8:
[19:13] You were closed.

Speaker 6:
[19:14] And there's an upcoming Vanderpump hotel with the Caesars franchise in Vegas that's coming up. So as I just mentioned, July 2020, Villa Blanca closed during COVID due to egregious rent increases of $80,000 a month, and the landlord was unwilling to renegotiate the expiring lease.

Speaker 7:
[19:30] And $80,000 a month is so, is that like normal for a restaurant?

Speaker 8:
[19:35] Like that sounds free.

Speaker 6:
[19:37] I think of like corporate offices, and that sounds about right, but like to us, just as like renters, or just like-

Speaker 7:
[19:43] Well, it's like, how do you turn a profit at all with the rent is that high?

Speaker 6:
[19:47] That's just the rent. I think about Softbar in Brooklyn.

Speaker 7:
[19:50] Oh my God.

Speaker 6:
[19:51] Can you imagine how he's probably negative every single month? I know.

Speaker 7:
[19:56] Let us know you guys, is that like normal for a restaurant? $80,000 a month, that just sounds so high, but let us know. I don't know anything about this industry, obviously.

Speaker 6:
[20:05] I know, I don't either, but that to me, that sounds like one of my girlfriends, she owns a restaurant. I would have to ask her, but it's like a stop and go. It's not a restaurant restaurant with servers. But okay, let's talk about Pump. So Pump, which is weird. It closed in July 2023 after rent hit $80,000 a month, but it's still there. It's connected to TomTom. But it used to be, Pump used to be on the corner in West Hollywood on the same street as TomTom, but then they merged it with TomTom. So I think that the bigger restaurant with like all the decadence and the outside and the flat, like that is closed. It's still there, but like a quarter of the size. And just last month in March, 2026, TomTom was listed for sale. Sir remains open, but Lisa admitted on season 12 that it was experiencing financial hardship and she said it hasn't been thriving. And we've talked about this in previous episodes. We went to Sir when we did our retreat with the Snark Bait Girls. And it felt at that point, like more of a set than an actual restaurant. It was super like run down. The decor was super old. They make it look super pretty on TV, but it's nothing of the sort.

Speaker 7:
[21:07] It was empty. And also, yeah, like the decor is just so dated. And it just like, I know that they revamped the show obviously, but it's like, why are you not revamping the restaurant? Like it is so dated.

Speaker 6:
[21:19] Yeah.

Speaker 7:
[21:19] It just, it was, it was sad. It was empty. And Tom Tom, on the other hand, definitely was more crowded.

Speaker 6:
[21:27] Yes.

Speaker 7:
[21:28] But it still wasn't like a hotspot that people were like waiting in line to get into. Like we just like walked right in.

Speaker 6:
[21:34] Yeah. Got seated at the most VIP table.

Speaker 7:
[21:37] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was also not crowded, but Sir was like a ghost town. Like there were like, you know, there was no one there. Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[21:47] And I've heard that when I listen to the crappens guys, they always say like West Hollywood is just not as popping as it used to be like pre-pandemic. So that's probably contributing to it. But I think regardless, there were a lot of people out the night. Like the Abbey is two steps away from Sir. That's still popping, but Sir is just, yeah, you're right. It's a ghost town and I'm curious, like the profit on that every month. Like I just don't see them making any money considering it's in the most coveted like location in West Hollywood.

Speaker 7:
[22:13] Oh, also at Sir, they play Vanderpump rules on the TVs.

Speaker 6:
[22:17] Yeah, I know they've been doing that for years. Cause I think I went even before the pandemic, my mom and my sister went just for fun. I think this is maybe in 2018, they're doing that same thing, but it was far more crowded in 2018. I remember we like got a reservation, it was bumping, but yeah, there was no such thing happening. And 2025. So let's talk about our Vegas pivot that started in 2021. So while the LA restaurants were kind of shuddering one by one, Lisa started to set her eyes on Vegas with Caesars Entertainment as a partner. And so she now operates four venues with Caesars. Vanderpump Cocktail Garden at Caesars Palace, which is one of the newer spots. I remember they featured that establishment on Vanderpump Rules with Katie and Raquel and Terry. That was relatively new back then, I think 2023. Vanderpump Off Paris at Paris Las Vegas. Pinkies at the Flamingo. Interestingly enough, when I was in Vegas for Ashley Simpson, I think it was. I've been to Vegas so many times over the last year for like concerts. We just stumbled upon Pinkies. And also, dead. Similar vibe as Sir, kind of like dated decor. But it was kind of like Sir, but in like a sunroom area. I think in 2012, it would have been cool. But yeah, no one was really there. I remember they refused to seat us like in the restaurant. They made us sit in the sunroom even though it was scorching hot. Like there's no one in the restaurant. Why don't you seat us in there? It was kind of bizarre. They also started Wolf by Vanderpump at Harvey's Lake Tahoe and Caesar's Republic in Scottsdale. I remember Wolf was featured on Vanderpump Rules.

Speaker 7:
[23:40] Yeah, she was like, it's sexy. The sexiest new restaurant in Lake Tahoe.

Speaker 6:
[23:45] Yeah.

Speaker 7:
[23:45] It's just so funny that like, and I see that you wrote here that Pinkie's in horrible food. What her restaurants all have in common is that the food is bad and the decor is tacky.

Speaker 6:
[23:55] Yeah.

Speaker 7:
[23:56] But how is she so rich?

Speaker 6:
[23:58] I know. I know. Because I would imagine the menu is consistent. At least the two places I've been at, the menu is consistent across both restaurants, Sir and Pinkie's. I can't imagine it varying much for the other restaurants.

Speaker 7:
[24:09] I remember the goat cheese balls at Tom Tom when I went, not with Snark, but not with you. But when I went there, I think in 2023 when I was visiting my friend in LA, good goat cheese balls. Those are hard to mess up. I'm sure they were like frozen from a bag.

Speaker 6:
[24:23] Yeah. I remember when I went as well before the pandemic, the goat cheese balls were actually really delicious. I was like, oh, that's pretty good. But exactly, you could probably buy those frozen from Trader Joe's, put them in the toaster oven, and they will be the exact same. Yeah, exactly. The key difference between her LA ventures and her Vegas ventures is that Caesar's, her partner in Vegas, is presumably putting up the capital for all of these restaurants, so putting all the investment. Whereas Lisa is likely a branding and licensing partner, rather than the one that's writing the checks and putting up the rent, which is a much lower risk model than the least dependent restaurants that she owns in West Hollywood and Beverly Hills. I've heard from many an influencer that, sure, brand partnerships, like getting paid to do an ad is great, but licensing is where you're really getting your money. You use your name and likeness over and over for advertising, and that's where you can really make all your money. It's the most lucrative part of being an influencer. I think Lisa Vanderpump, she's basically an influencer, it seems, for these restaurants.

Speaker 7:
[25:19] Or lending your name to a collection, like Amanda Petula Swim. It did not have to invest a single thing, did not have to pay any of the overhead, the brand takes care of everything, you just lend your name and likeness.

Speaker 6:
[25:31] Exactly. It's brilliant and great for the influencer, for Amanda Petula Swim, American Horror Story, or Lisa Vanderpump for. Who did you, were you the one that said that, or did you find that on Twitter?

Speaker 7:
[25:41] That the font, yeah, that the font looks like American Horror Story of Amanda.

Speaker 6:
[25:44] I think it literally is the same font.

Speaker 7:
[25:46] It is.

Speaker 6:
[25:47] So her net worth though, Vanderpump's net worth, does it add up or not? So between her and Ken Todd, they have an estimated combined net worth of 90 million per celebrity net worth 2024, but we always kind of question that. We can't really rely on that. How do we really know? Some people have said the figure is closer to 200 million. Others think that $90 million is even generous, but for the lifestyle that they live, the mansions, the multiple mansions, France, Montecito, Beverly Hills, the swans, the miniature horses, the seven dogs, all this doesn't really seem like 90 million. It seems like a lot, it should be a lot more, but between 2015 and 2019, Lisa and Ken, as I mentioned at the top of the episode, they took out a total of $18.9 million in loans against Villa Rosa, the estate that's featured on Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, which I'm like, Jesus, a $20 million loan just to keep up with the Joneses of maintaining your two-acre property in Beverly Hills, like just downsize.

Speaker 7:
[26:42] And it's also, sorry, ugly, their house.

Speaker 6:
[26:45] Yeah.

Speaker 7:
[26:47] Their house is ugly. It's tacky. I mean, it's like I don't expect anything else from her because she does inherently have bad taste.

Speaker 6:
[26:54] Yes.

Speaker 7:
[26:55] But like, yeah, freaking downsize. Come on, it's ridiculous.

Speaker 6:
[26:58] Yeah. If you were to describe her style, Sophie, in like three words, what would it be?

Speaker 7:
[27:03] Tacky, dated, pink satin.

Speaker 6:
[27:06] Pink satin.

Speaker 7:
[27:07] She's obsessed with pink satin.

Speaker 6:
[27:09] Yes. And like crystal chandeliers, like something about those crystal chandeliers, the jewel toned, I feel like everything, but pink satin.

Speaker 7:
[27:18] And satin-collared shirts with like a lacy bra peeking underneath.

Speaker 6:
[27:22] And a tie.

Speaker 7:
[27:22] And a tie, yes. And like a baby little vest.

Speaker 6:
[27:25] Right. And which by the way, people are calling out Kyle from this season in her confessionals, she has a tie in the look as well. And everyone's like, Kyle will do anything but admit that she copies Lisa Vanderpump every season. Like first she got a pony, then she's wearing a tie. Like she can't help but want to be Vanderpump, despite her saying she hates her. Like, no, she's your style icon.

Speaker 7:
[27:44] Kyle Richards also not known for having great taste. So that track. But yeah, I feel like she would never leave Villa Rosa because it is so part of her identity and part of the image that she projects. Where it's like, oh my God, look how effortlessly she lives like a billionaire, you know?

Speaker 6:
[27:59] Yeah, and the swans are so-

Speaker 7:
[28:01] The swans, yeah.

Speaker 6:
[28:02] I just think of all like the poop that they leave around on the entryway. That's just not, that would be a lot of work.

Speaker 7:
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Speaker 6:
[34:22] So, let's talk about the labor lawsuits. She has had a lot of people sue her, and it is not normal. Granted, my friend has owned a restaurant for six years, so much less time than Vanderpump. She's never been sued by anyone, by any of her employees at least. So I feel like just my tiny sample size of knowing someone who's in the restaurant business, I feel like to have one is a big deal, but to have many is a whole other thing. So in 2014, a Villa Blanco sexual harassment case resulted in $100,000 in punitive damages. So there was a plaintiff by the last name of Bustillos. Bustillos alleged that the restaurant's assistant manager, Michael Govia, took her wrists, twisted them after she asked for a change for a $20 bill so that she could distribute tips at the end of her shift. This allegedly happened in 2012. And Bustillos alleged that the eatery violated its own policies against sexual harassment by not doing anything to punish this manager for this like physical abuse at the workplace. And she filed her case in 2012, and she named the restaurant manager, Govia, the restaurant, Vanderpump, and Todd as defendants. And the Villa Blanca attorney, Marion Zakarian, said that there was no concrete evidence supporting her allegations that Ken Todd ordered the restaurant surveillance footage to be destroyed. He's like, no, sorry, it doesn't exist. And the plaintiff's lawyers maintained that the video could have really bolstered her claims, which is unfortunate.

Speaker 7:
[35:42] I mean, all of this tracks, because if there's one thing we know about Lisa Vanderpump is that she will always defend a man over a woman.

Speaker 6:
[35:49] Time and time again, the footage has shown.

Speaker 7:
[35:51] Yeah, this totally tracks.

Speaker 6:
[35:53] Yes, and it doesn't stop with just Bustillos. So in 2020, Damiana Guzman filed for sexual harassment. So Damiana Guzman, a dog groomer, alleged that she was forced to resign after only two months because her manager, another man, Martin Duarte, harassed her based on her sex, gender and sexuality. He allegedly called her names like skinny no-ass fool, a flat-ass bitch, mocked her sexual orientation, saying that he could turn her straight. And not a day went by without comments about her body or his sexual prowess. She complained to management about this sexual harassment, but believed that no disciplinary action was taken. So she resigned, but she eventually dropped the case, which I don't blame her, things like that. It's like you just want to be heard and be seen, like hope that this doesn't happen to another employee. But it's so much effort and attorney fees and like there's no probability that you're actually going to win. I don't blame her for dropping the case, but I have no doubt that this is a real story.

Speaker 7:
[36:47] Oh, 100 percent. And once again, it's not like Lisa Vanderpump would be like, oh, here's a woman complaining about a man in the workplace. Let me take her side. No, she is always going to defend the man. And that's my biggest problem, so Vanderpump.

Speaker 6:
[36:58] Yes. And I think a lot of that has come to light in the recent years since she's been off our screens for, at least on Beverly Hills Housewives, when the James Kennedy thing started unraveling with Ali Weber. Yes, that's such a good example. Sorry, not Weber, Luber. And Kristen Doty was like, I've been whistleblowing for years about James Kennedy and abusing me and you never listen and you continue to platform this man and you continue to have him be the number one guy in the group for years after I left Vanderpump Rules and here he is doing it yet to another woman. Which by the way, did you see that Ali Luber is going to be on, I think it's a perfect match or one of those realities.

Speaker 7:
[37:31] I didn't see that, but I saw that she moved to Charleston. So I was like, is she going to be on like Southern Charm or Southern Hospitality?

Speaker 6:
[37:36] Yeah. There were rumors that she was going to join Southern Hospitality, that I don't think has been confirmed quite yet, but she's definitely going to be on one of those reality, like Netflix dating shows.

Speaker 7:
[37:45] Interesting. Olivia just met her at Coachella and said she was really nice.

Speaker 6:
[37:49] She gives me great energy. I really like Ali. I think she's a bit of a thirst monster, which like, okay, just admit it Ali, it's fine. We would actually hate you. We would like you more if you just leaned into it. Stop acting like you're like too good for it. That's the thing.

Speaker 7:
[38:01] I feel like she was like, no, like I'm just a girl from Ohio.

Speaker 6:
[38:05] Oh, she's from Ohio?

Speaker 7:
[38:06] Yeah, she's from Ohio. She's like, I don't care about the limelight. And it's like, yes, you do, clearly.

Speaker 6:
[38:10] Yeah.

Speaker 7:
[38:11] But like again, that's fine.

Speaker 6:
[38:12] That's fine. There was also a class action lawsuit covering 153 employees across Sir, Pump, Villa Blanca, TomTom. Those employees alleged wage theft, overtime violations, manipulated time records. They alleged that they were not given meal breaks and failed to do so for years. And they also said that Ken and Lisa were manipulating and editing time records to show lesser hours than actually worked. And the case settled in 2021 for 250K. In November 2021, Lisa was on a Zoom call with the WeHo city council to oppose raising the minimum wage from $14 to $17.64 per hour. I remember this happening. Do you remember this happening?

Speaker 7:
[38:49] Oh my God, no.

Speaker 6:
[38:50] So this is right after the, this is after post COVID world. This was post, after people had gotten vaccinated. So we were kind of slowly entering back into the world. And she had, and obviously during COVID, everyone had to close restaurants and she was losing a ton of money. So seemingly she was probably against this because she was just doing whatever she could to try and keep her business afloat. But of course, Beverly Hills fans were not reacting well. And they were like, what the hell? I implore you to give this a lot of thought because I do believe if we raise the minimum wage now, it's going to be counterproductive. And a former employee of hers told news reporters that, quote, for her to take time out of her day to go and fight for us to get paid even less is quite frankly disgusting, but not surprising. And the wage increased past unanimously, by the way.

Speaker 7:
[39:37] Yeah, I mean, it shocks me that even in 2021 in California, the minimum wage was still $14. Like that is so low. That's ridiculous.

Speaker 6:
[39:47] Yeah, it's criminal.

Speaker 7:
[39:49] Yeah, it literally is criminal.

Speaker 6:
[39:50] It's criminal.

Speaker 7:
[39:50] Don't fuck that, Lisa Vanderpump. And I get it, like she's like, oh my God, I just need to keep my businesses afloat, darling. The rent is $80,000 a month. That doesn't give you the right to exploit employees.

Speaker 6:
[40:03] Exactly. Exactly. Then go to distributors that sell.

Speaker 7:
[40:07] Figure out a way to make more money then.

Speaker 6:
[40:09] Yeah, I was like, cost other ways, but don't do it on your servers that are working hard and that are on their feet all night. Like that's right.

Speaker 7:
[40:15] Right, criminal.

Speaker 6:
[40:16] In 2024, TomTom employees sued, alleging wrongful termination and unsafe working conditions, including sewage backup in the employee break room.

Speaker 7:
[40:24] Eww.

Speaker 6:
[40:25] Do you know what that reminds me of?

Speaker 7:
[40:26] What?

Speaker 6:
[40:27] Another influencer that we covered. Who? Cupcakes and cashmere. Not that there was sewage.

Speaker 7:
[40:31] The fruit flies.

Speaker 6:
[40:32] The fruit flies and how it was absolutely disgusting. They couldn't even work in there because the conditions were so disgusting, everything was rotting. So there was another lawsuit in 2024 at Vanderpump Dogs when an employee sued for intolerable working conditions. He claimed that he was not paid the correct amount for his work and for intolerable working conditions. His name was Eswin Bullocks, hired in May 2017 and he was a part of the cleaning crew at Vanderpump Dogs, making $12.50 an hour, which again, for cleaning, that's criminal. He alleged that he was under constant pressure when he was encouraged. And when he encouraged other employees to exercise their rights about fair working conditions, the foundation then re-etaliated. They were mad that he was trying to gun up, like to bolster against Ken and Lisa. And management allegedly encouraged other employees to harass and punish him for bolstering, like fellow employees. And he was eventually forced to quit because he felt so harassed at the workplace. He filed his lawsuit in 2020, Vanderpump Dogs didn't respond, so he won a default judgment lien for $246K against the charity's property. And the foundation later claimed that all legal notices had been sent to a random address in another city, so they never received any of the court claims, which is like a pretty convenient excuse. Oh, please. There are some other pretty disturbing lawsuits against Ken. So in 2014, a construction worker alleged that Ken pushed him hard in the chest at the pump construction site. I remember when pump was being built. This was a huge storyline in Real Housewives. Ken was always on the ground. He had the construction hat on. He was engaging with the workers. Like we, I remember this. There were two brothers by the names of David and Kevin Kasaroff, and they sued Ken alleging that he approached Kevin while they were demolishing a sidewalk in and around the pump area. And he told the brothers in a rude and aggressive manner that they weren't doing their job appropriately.

Speaker 7:
[42:20] I can picture this so well of Ken being like, I'll knock you spock out.

Speaker 6:
[42:25] Yes, a hundred percent. Cause he loses his temper often on Vanderpump rules and on Real Housewives. So when the worker, Kevin, asked Ken to speak more courteously, Ken allegedly pushed Kevin hard on his chest while grabbing his tools on his work belt. And a sheriff deputy got involved and Ken apologized, and Ken offered Kevin a sum of money as a gesture of good faith. But when the brothers rejected his offer to basically like, it's kind of hush money, Ken got angry and started yelling that he was getting blackmailed. Like, oh, you're not going to get my money? Well, then now I'm being blackmailed, screaming at them. And Ken allegedly counter sued the brothers first, claiming that Ken was the one that threw the concrete chipper machine at him first, causing serious and permanent injury against Ken. But that suit was later dismissed because Ken never showed up to court. So if it was that much of a serious and permanent injury to you, Ken, you would think you would show up for your court date.

Speaker 7:
[43:14] But you would think.

Speaker 6:
[43:14] Yeah. A dog rescue executive also sued Ken in 2017, alleging that Ken threw her against the wall and screamed, do you know who I am? I will ruin your life. So apparently, Ken and Lisa entered into a written agreement to lease Spot Rescue's established dog rescue operation, so they were just going to take over another lease and rebrand it as Vanderpump Dogs. They allegedly reneged on contractual payments and bounced checks to the organization. And the suit describes that Ken physically assaulted executive director Lizzie Shresher when Spot Rescue's executive director refused to provide dogs for a Vanderpump sponsored fundraiser gala because it was against company policy. And Ken allegedly grabbed this executive director Lizzie by the collar, threw her against a wall, and verbally assaulted her at their fundraiser, which was attended by a couple hundred people, and a police report was subsequently filed. Like, you don't call the police if someone's not physically harassing you. Like, that's a pretty large escalation. Yeah. You know, like, I fully believe this woman. Totally. And Lizzie relented and sent dogs to the event. But when it came time to split the $64,000 raise at this gala, Ken allegedly shorted the executive director, which is messed up. It's like, dude, I'm giving you, like, the lease or whatever to host your gala. We should split this in a way that's fair. And then first, then you physically assault me. And second, you're shorting me. Like, what is... Yes. He then offered Lizzie partial payment, but only if the executive director signed a release from liability in the assault. So I'll give you your fair share of wages. But by the way, just sign this document so that you don't sue me for me physically harassing you.

Speaker 7:
[44:47] Oh my God.

Speaker 6:
[44:48] Just very awful physical violence against men, women. Ken does not discriminate against who he will assault. Yeah.

Speaker 7:
[44:58] It sounds like he just... And again, we've seen this. He has a temper.

Speaker 6:
[45:02] Yeah.

Speaker 7:
[45:02] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[45:03] It would be definitely scary to be around him because he's, I mean, he's an older man. I doubt that he would do much damage to these two burly construction men. But to a woman, that's very scary to be physically threatened and have you being pulled by the collar. Like, oh my god.

Speaker 7:
[45:19] Absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[45:20] That's like traumatic. Let's talk about Lisa Vanderpump's Beverly Hills playbook. So interestingly enough, Andy was really against them starring a Beverly Hills franchise because they already had Orange County. But Andy Cohen later said, when I saw Lisa Vanderpump on that casting tape, she was the one who really sold me on doing this franchise. And Lisa herself almost passed on doing Beverly Hills because she was watching Roni and she was like, listen, that's not me. They're shouting, they're screaming at each other. Roni was almost kind of like the Jerry Springer, I feel like, of the franchises. And I feel like Lisa Vanderpump, she's high brow, she's from London, she has a really elegant accent. She was like, this is not going to be me. But she instead pivoted the show to her advantage so that, again, sniper from the side, she wasn't going to yell in your face, she was going to have everyone else yell on your face on your behalf.

Speaker 7:
[46:05] And she's masterful at it. It's actually crazy to think about how many spin-off have, what's the word, sprouted from Beverly Hills. Because you have Beverly Hills, and then you have Vanderpump Rules. Vanderpump Rules backdoored into Summer House, which is now backdooring into In the City. And then you also have The Valley, which came out of Vanderpump Rules. So many Bravo shows wouldn't exist if Lisa Vanderpump didn't stand out on the casting tape to Andy Cohen.

Speaker 6:
[46:31] You're right. If she didn't stand out and if she didn't spotlight, she told Andy in production, listen, I have a show already without cameras, go to Vanderpump, go to Sir and it'll happen. She also can spot talent. I think that's why she's such a savvy business woman because she sees it and she'll just attack. It reminds me too, it always goes back to me for Laguna Beach. When the OC aired, that's when Laguna Beach aired, that's when the Real Housewives of Orange County aired, and that's when Real Housewives aired in Vanderpump. Really, it all comes from the OC if you think about it.

Speaker 7:
[47:00] Truly.

Speaker 6:
[47:01] Producers kept returning because of her restaurants and her super big house. This is what Andy Cohen said about being really hesitant about Beverly Hills. He's like, it's been well documented that when we were developing the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, I was not totally sold on doing that show. I was like, wait, we have Orange County. Why would we do Beverly Hills? But then when I saw Lisa Vanderpump on that casting tape, man, she was the one that really sold me. And if you guys remember, if you're a Beverly Hills watcher, Kyle Richards said that being in a friendship with you is like playing chess with Bobby Fischer. And Lisa Rinna in her recent memoir called LVP the Bobby Fischer of Housewives, one of the greatest of all time, who spent every waking hour figuring out her next move. And you'll start to see that everyone in her life, whether it be Cedric, her fellow castmates on Real Housewives, will say that she would basically like, it's like a playbook. She was a coach. And she would say, okay, today, I'm going to do this. Tomorrow, I'm going to do this. I'm going to talk to this person about this thing, and they're going to talk about it on this next cast trip. She was so calculated in everything she did. And Sheena has even admitted in her memoir that we covered on an episode that you took us through. Sheena said that looking back, she sees her relationship with Vanderpump is incredibly transactional. She's like, you know, once I left the show, there was no such relationship with me and Vanderpump. But when I was on the show, she would call me and I felt like she was kind of like her little pet, that she cared for me when in fact, she was trying to almost like, groom is not the right word, but kind of coax me into doing her dirty work. Her OG op was Adrienne Malouf, when one Adrienne Malouf started that shoe line and she called it the Malouf Hoof, which was so shady.

Speaker 7:
[48:27] And Adrienne was so offended by that. She should have leaned into it.

Speaker 6:
[48:31] It was funny. It was funny.

Speaker 7:
[48:32] It was so funny.

Speaker 6:
[48:34] It was shady, but it was funny and it was good marketing and branding, I think.

Speaker 7:
[48:37] Adrienne Malouf, I feel like, was too sensitive to have her be on Housewives.

Speaker 6:
[48:40] Yeah. And I feel like Adrienne was the pinnacle of wealth in Beverly Hills. She owned a basketball team, for Christ's sake. She was true wealth, money, private jets, probably more than anyone on that franchise, but I agree, she couldn't take the heat.

Speaker 7:
[48:52] Yeah. She took everything way too late.

Speaker 6:
[48:54] Yes.

Speaker 7:
[48:54] You have to be able to brush things off on Housewives or any reality show, obviously.

Speaker 6:
[48:59] Right. But allegedly, remember that story line when Brandi called Adrienne Malouf for using a surrogate?

Speaker 7:
[49:05] Oh my god, this was actually awful. Like I felt really bad for you because her kids didn't know.

Speaker 6:
[49:11] Right. And it was allegedly Lisa was the one who told Brandi to out it on camera.

Speaker 7:
[49:16] Puppet master.

Speaker 6:
[49:17] Yep. And of course, this reminds me of the tabloids. Remember when she told Brandi to stuff tabloid magazines? This is like before Instagram. This is like when we still would read Us Weekly all the time. She asked Brandi, hey, stuff a couple of people, magazines and Us Weekly's into your suitcase of already so cheating on Kyle and let's plant it at the cast trip and then we'll talk about it. So when such magazines showed up on camera, Kyle got so upset to Brandi and Brandi is like, yo, it was Vanderpump that told me to do that. That was such an iconic cast trip. I remember they were like in Jamaica or some tropical destination and I remember Kyle and I think the husbands were also there on the trip. And Kyle was talking to Mo was like, I'm so troubled by the fact that Brandi would do that. And at the dinner table that night, Brandi was like, I'm not going to get heat for this. Like this was all Lisa telling me exactly what to do. And I think Lisa was kind of like, no darling, that was your doing. Like she totally skirted around the allegations by Brandi. In season six, Lisa Rinna obviously had that Munchausen theory about Yolanda and it was allegedly Vanderpump that urged Rinna to bring it up on camera. She would call Rinna every night. And again, Rinna saw her similar to Sheena as Vanderpump's pet. She's like, Vanderpump likes me. She's the goaded housewives of this franchise. I'm gonna do her dirty work, sure. Yolanda suffers from munchausens and everyone was like Rinna so messed up for doing that, but it was Rinna, I mean, Vanderpump all along.

Speaker 7:
[50:37] Like Lisa Vanderpump could probably manipulate me. Like I could totally see myself falling for her spell.

Speaker 6:
[50:43] Yeah, oh, absolutely.

Speaker 7:
[50:44] She's a sweet talker. Like, I totally track.

Speaker 6:
[50:48] And her accent is so elevated. Like she's so classy, like just by her diction, her voice and the way she lives. I would be incredibly intimidated by her. Anyone would be, I think. According to Raider Online, Lisa Vanderpump negotiated the highest paid Housewife salary in history, and they really couldn't refuse her. Like, listen, you are the best, and we're going to pay you handsomely for being the best. And the insider said that she was now the highest paid cast member on the show, even above Kyle Richards, which is like crazy, because now we look at Kyle Richards, it's like she's the popular girl. She's the it girl on Beverly Hills. Everyone is trying to kiss the ring. Every time they're a new housewife, they try to cuddle up to Kyle. But I think before Kyle, there was Vanderpump, and we've forgotten about it because it's been so long since Vanderpump has been on our Beverly Hills screens.

Speaker 7:
[51:31] Lisa Vanderpump was the only housewife other than Bethany Frankel, I think, to leave on their own terms. Like Andy has said, every time a housewife leaves, it is because they are fired. We let them say they quit or whatever, but the only people that actually left on their own volition were Lisa Vanderpump and Bethany Frankel.

Speaker 6:
[51:49] Yeah, and Lisa Vanderpump and Bethany Frankel are the reason why the franchises are so popular today because they were incredible TV. Say what you want about Bethany Frankel, which I completely understand why you say what you say about Bethany today. Back in the day, she was incredible.

Speaker 7:
[52:06] Yeah, early Roni was so good because of Bethany.

Speaker 6:
[52:09] Quick, witty, smart, called it like she saw it, like she was amazing. Puppygate. This is a scandal that really ended Vanderpump's time. I think that this is when everyone started to come to terms with, oh, she's puppeteering all of us. This is the moment we're going to turn against her. And Vanderpump was kind of caught red-handed, and she didn't like it. And I think at the time, I didn't watch Puppygate in real time, I watched it after it aired. What was the rhetoric from the population, the gen pop theory? Were people siding with Vanderpump, or were they siding with the other girls? From your recollection.

Speaker 7:
[52:41] I honestly don't remember. I remember people were mad at Dorit for giving away her dog. I feel like that was the biggest thing. Like it mattered less to me as a viewer who leaked it, and more the fact that, oh, you couldn't take care of your dog, and you gave your dog away. Like that's what people were mad at. And then it was like, well, who leaked it? And I was like, I don't really care.

Speaker 6:
[53:03] Right, right. I mean, people are leaking things left, right, and center on Housewives. That's not like a new thing. They just decided to make it a storyline because that season there was literally nothing. And I remember this is when it was kind of starting to go down. Everyone's like, dude, we used to talk about like Russell and like Camille Grammer. And like now we're talking about a puppy. It just felt like Beverly Hills at this point was grasping at straws, and they realized this was their only storyline, but it wasn't that juicy. Like it was kind of stupid, but it carried the entire franchise that season. So if you guys are unfamiliar, in February 2018, Duree adopted a Chihuahua mix by the name of Lucy Lucy Apple Juicy from Vanderpump Dogs. And instead of returning the dog to Vanderpump Dogs, as required by the adoption contract that she signed when adopting Lucy Lucy Apple Juicy, it also included a $5,000 penalty for violation. Duree gave Lucy to another friend of hers, who then surrendered this dog Lucy to a kill shelter in Orange County. And when the shelter scanned Lucy's microchip, they realized, oh, this is a Vanderpump Dogs pet. They called Vanderpump Dogs, Lisa put it together, oh my God, Duree surrendered this dog, and now it's at a kill shelter in OC. And Duree has also had a bit of a history of surrendering dogs. For example, they had previously adopted another dog named Maddie, who bit her daughter and was later returned, which I understand if you have young children, like it is a little bit scary, but maybe do a little bit more diligence before bringing a dog into your home. Like make sure that you're well prepared and understand its history. Which again, you can't always foresee what's happening, but it's bothersome when it becomes a pattern, which it doesn't in Doreed's case. And Teddy, if you guys remember Teddy Mellencamp, she had a pretty short stint, no one really liked her, but Teddy was new to the franchise and she was kind of Lisa's newest puppet, because no one was kind of willing to do her dirty work anymore. So Teddy was told about the dog situation from an employee at Vanderpump Dogs by the name of John Blizzard. And Teddy later admits that she was just the messenger, nearly the messenger of Vanderpump's orchestrated plan to destroy Duret. And if you remember, when Duret came on to the franchise, Vanderpump brought her on. And I can't remember their relationship, like I think it was maybe something in England, like PK and her had some relationship in London. Me and PK and the kids. So awful. But they were friends first, but for whatever reason, I think maybe because Duret was cuddling up to Kyle and Vanderpump didn't like that. In any case, Vanderpump was like, Teddy, you're taking on Duret and this is exactly what you're going to do. And John Cessa, who is the executive director of Vanderpump Dogs, who's also Lisa's partner, not an employee, he was the one that brought out Lucy during the premiere of that season of Real Housewives. So I think Vanderpump knew exactly what she wanted to do with this dog, knowing that Duret may possibly give up this dog. And in an interview on a radio show, John Cessa, again, the ED of Vanderpump Dogs, confirmed his fury in the confrontation that he had had with Ken, that they signed for not returning the dog to Vanderpump Dogs. And there's this infamous line that John Cessa says, does this dog look familiar? Like, I think actually, sorry, this was after Duret returned the dog to, or sorry, surrendered the dog to the friend. The friend surrendered it to a kill shelter. Then Vanderpump Dogs brought it back on the season premiere. They were like, hey, here's Lucy, Lucy, Apple, Juicy, that was surrendered by Duret and was brought to a kill shelter. They made it a point to bring it up. And Lisa was like, I didn't leak this story to the narrator online, she swore it on her, my children's lives. And I'm just trying to figure out where to go. You can cut this out, Karthik. So when Vanderpump found out that Duret had surrendered the dog and they returned it back to Vanderpump Dogs, Lisa claims that she sent Duret a text urging her to get in front of this issue. She said, I would have thought that would have included Duret going down to the center and calming already an emotional young staff, reassuring them that her intentions, albeit careless, had no mal intent. While Teddy alleged that the entire scene of Vanderpump Dogs was plotted ahead of time, but LVP was like, no, I had no part in that. I didn't know that John Cecil was gonna bring out Lucy, Lucy, Apple, Juicy, knowing damn well what had happened with Duret and surrendering it. And John Cecil said that the center only discovered that the Kemsleys no longer had Lucy when they had received the call from the shelter. So John Cecil's like, listen, I had no idea Duret surrendered this dog. We heard it from this Orange County shelter. And Duret had said that she had told Lisa she had found a new home for the dog before giving it to the still unidentified woman. So Duret, this entire time, plays dumb. She's like, listen, I surrendered it to a friend of mine. I had no idea she was going to then surrender it again to a kill shelter. Like, I had no idea. And Lisa, I think, was telling her, no, you knew exactly what you did. And they took two polygraph tests, one on camera, and it said that Vanderpump was not lying. But if you remember, the same person that did the polygraph tests on Beverly Hills are the same people that always do polygraph tests across the Housewives franchise.

Speaker 7:
[57:41] Yes.

Speaker 6:
[57:42] Just recently on Orange County, actually, when they were saying that Katie lied about something, Katie lies a lot, honestly, but they hired that same whatever. But then it makes me think of Secret Lives and Mormon Wives when that lie detector woman was like, I don't even want to be on camera. I take my job very seriously. I don't want to be known as a reality TV polygrapher, which I kind of respect.

Speaker 7:
[58:02] Polygraph tests also aren't reliable, which is why they're not in court new.

Speaker 6:
[58:05] Exactly. Never take a polygraph. It is, it'll point.

Speaker 7:
[58:09] It's unreliable.

Speaker 6:
[58:10] It's unreliable. The climax is when Kyle came to Villa Rosa to confront Lisa about leaking the story to Raider Online. She's like, you knew what you were doing when you told Raider Online what was going on. You knew that people were going to go after DeRue because there was nothing more than the community hates, rightfully so, than people surrendering dogs and then bringing them to kill shelters. And Kyle and Ken of course were livid. That's when the goodbye Kyle came about and their friendship ceased after that. It was actually really sad because it kind of reminded me a bit of the Carol and Bethany fight when Carol and Bethany were so close. And to this day, I still can't really remember why their friendship hit rock bottom. It had something to do with I think like Carol felt like Bethany wasn't there for her when she was running the New York Marathon. But I remember just being like, you two were genuine friends like outside of the show. And I feel like you guys are, I don't know, this doesn't have to be.

Speaker 7:
[58:58] Yeah, Kyle and Lisa were best friends.

Speaker 6:
[59:00] Right.

Speaker 7:
[59:00] It is sad.

Speaker 6:
[59:01] And Kyle wasn't as good on the show as she was with Vanderpump. I feel like they were such a fun duo. And yeah, they had some beef here and there, but I loved their relationship. And I do feel like Kyle over the last couple of years has gotten a really bad rap. Understandably so. What Kyle is known for in these recent seasons is she dishes it. She tells people to be open and honest. She tells people, Denise Richards, let's talk about your lesbian affair, Denise, with Brandi Glanville, when in fact Kyle the entire time is having a relationship with Morgan, what's her name, Morgan Wade, and refusing to even say her name on camera when talking about her relationship that no longer exists, that we broke up. But it's like you showed Morgan Wade on camera, yet refused to admit that you guys were in a lesbian relationship, but just two years ago demanded the same of Denise Richards, outing her when it was not her decision to. Like that's just one example of Kyle. And even this season, she's demanding to read, to be open and honest about her erraticness and her divorce with PK, and how she's not telling the full truth about PK and their divorce, and how Kyle is clearly siding with PK, and she's in Moe and PK's ears, and they're in her ears, but she's pretending to be Doreen's friend. It's like, but where were you when you were going through all those changes? You refused to drink, you were hitting the gym all the time, you were losing all this weight, and you refused to tell anyone what was going on with you and Moe's relationship. Like pot, kettle, black, Kyle.

Speaker 7:
[60:13] I know, it's so annoying. Kyle, she gets to be the OG that everyone, like you said, kisses the ring, but she's a horrible reality star at this point in her career. Which is why, have you been hearing the rumors that Kyle apparently is going to be leaving?

Speaker 6:
[60:29] Her last season?

Speaker 7:
[60:30] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[60:31] I genuinely think it is time. I think that we are so tired of Kyle, and I think this season it's really spotlight on the fact that she is trying so hard to make it her storyline, and to pull out anything she can from Doree, and make her look like an unreliable narrator when it comes to the divorce. And it's like, undoubtedly, Doree has some issues. I think psychologically she is erratic. She would admit that. She's late an hour and a half. She doesn't apologize. She's crazy with her finances. Yes, these are all objectively true, but at the same time, that's not your story to tell. Kyle, we can all see it with our own two eyes if you have two working eyes, but for you to constantly call out Doree for her behavior, and Doree never made it a point to call out your odd behavior just two years ago when you were going through it with Moe, you're not being a good friend. I think Lisa would have probably held her feet to the fire, but Kyle has never held accountable with Lisa no longer there, and she knows that. That's why I think the franchise is really falling off, and I think if it were up to me, the Beverly Hills franchise would just be foundationalize around Rachel Zoe and all of her friends. I don't care about Kyle anymore, I don't care about Zutton anymore, Erica can be a friend of, Doree can be a friend of, I just want to see Rachel Zoe and her fabulous friends in their drama.

Speaker 7:
[61:41] Yeah.

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Speaker 9:
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Speaker 3:
[62:10] It's not a battle.

Speaker 5:
[62:11] So glad the Saja Boys could take breakfast and give our meal the rest of the day.

Speaker 4:
[62:15] It is an honor to share.

Speaker 9:
[62:17] No, it's our honor.

Speaker 4:
[62:19] It is our larger honor.

Speaker 8:
[62:20] No, really, stop.

Speaker 9:
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Speaker 6:
[63:17] Let's talk about her beef with Cedric. So if you guys remember Cedric, he was a French man who managed Ken's London Gay Club, the Shadow Lounge, back in the day. And he moved with them to LA when they became their living guest. And he was always known as like the house guest, but also really a freeloader on the first season of Real Housewives. He assisted with the opening of Villa Blanca. And production was super interested in the dynamic because you had this like gay pool boy almost, but who was like living lavishly under Ken and Lisa's roof. And Cedric has a very different side of things about how his relationship was with the two on the show. He claims that he was working 14 hours a day as an unpaid personal assistant that Lisa secretly auditioned for Beverly Hills and mentioned her gay houseguest to intrigue casting and after they're falling out, he could not get work anywhere in LA. And he attempted an overdose from all the stress from the demise of their relationship. Super sad. So I had no idea about this, Sophie, but you know how Vanderpump is super good friends with Lance Bass. He's been featured on many of her shows. So I guess Cedric and Lance had had a romantic relationship. And Cedric, did you know this, by the way?

Speaker 7:
[64:26] No.

Speaker 6:
[64:27] Yeah. So I guess the reason why they are no longer good was because Cedric caught Lance cheating and broke it off. But Lisa was like, no, no, no, I expect you to stay with Lance to promote the show, the restaurant, our careers. And Cedric said, I understand her thinking process because she made a lot of sacrifices in her life, and she chose a certain path over something else, and I wasn't willing to do this. Like Cedric's like, I don't want to be intertwined with Lance. I don't want anything to do with this. Why are you forcing me? And Cedric says things came to a head after Lisa flipped when she found out he was dating another waiter at Villa Blanca and demanded, no, no, no, you're not dating this waiter. You're going to go back with Lance. And Cedric alleges that Lisa plotted from day one to ensure the show's success by creating scenarios, rehearsing lines, rehearsing jokes, digging for storylines. He said Lisa was the director of season one and she was amazing. He claimed that she would use Google to look at all the girls and see what kind of dirt she could find on them. And this is how all the stories were being generated, which is like, duh, of course we know that now, but season one, we had no idea. Ken told us weekly that Cedric was actually a threat. Cedric threatened the couple once and Cedric one time said, the last time I was this angry, I stabbed my father.

Speaker 7:
[65:32] Oh my God.

Speaker 6:
[65:33] Which is very spooky, if in fact true. I think they're both kind of crazy people, Ken, Lisa and Cedric, but Ken confirmed like, yeah, you threatened me and I filed a police report. And Lisa also claimed on the show, I remember that Cedric tried to extort them of money, saying that he threatened to write a tell-all book if they didn't pay him off. And she told us weekly in 2011, I will sue if he sells any stories about me. I feel absolutely betrayed. And Cedric claimed after the show, he's professionally and personally destroyed. He said, they made my life so impossible. I was pushed so hard that I did try to overdose. It was just too much. For me, after where I came from, and I loved them so much, I trusted them so much. And after what happened, nobody wanted to hire me. He said he had opportunities lined up after the show. He's like, I had a little bit of jobs here and there. I took gigs on Days of Our Lives, but that went down the drain after they fired me. I would get disinvited to carpets. I could not even work in any restaurants. I had no money. And in July 2020, Cedric shared with Behind the Velvet Rope podcast why he decided to publicly discuss his fallout with Lisa. He said to the host David, he said, Bravo's NDA was up, and that was what kept him from telling his side of the story. And a couple months prior to him on that podcast, Lisa said on Watch What Happens Live, don't say that word, don't say the C word. And Lisa recently said on Watch What Happens Live, oh yes, Cedric had a free ride for a long time. If you're watching this, please don't come back. And he wrote a self-published memoir called The Real Permanent House Guest of Beverly Hills, but he hasn't really been seen since and he hasn't been on social media in six years.

Speaker 7:
[67:04] Oh, I mean, I hope he's okay.

Speaker 6:
[67:06] Yeah, it just kind of-

Speaker 7:
[67:07] Sounds like he's been through a lot.

Speaker 6:
[67:08] Yeah, and it's sad because I feel like they were both kind of using one another for their own careers, until it was no longer manageable. I have no doubt that Cedric was living there rent-free, but Lisa expected things of him on the show at the restaurants behind the scenes, and he was not willing to play game, not willing to play ball. So I guess as a closing thought for what she's doing in 2026, Vanderpump Rules was rebooted after Scandival, and it's actually renewed again for another season.

Speaker 7:
[67:36] I could not finish the new reboot, and people ended up really liking it. I just have not- I watched the first few episodes and I was like, I don't care, but I need to go back and watch it I think. Because I do enjoy the format of the show.

Speaker 6:
[67:48] Yeah, yeah, I too could not get into it. After two episodes, I was like, this is so put on, so produced, I don't like any of these characters. It was a no for me. She also has Vanderpump Villa on Hulu, which is renewed for season three, and the latest season-

Speaker 7:
[68:00] But that show is a fucking flop. No one watches it. I'm sorry, no one watches it. Who watches it?

Speaker 6:
[68:06] The only time I've heard of it is on Secret Lives.

Speaker 7:
[68:08] I think that Hulu is like the channel where literally anyone pay to play, like the Kardashians, that's where the Kardashians rebooted is. And I'm like, who watches that? No one watches that. I think actually you do.

Speaker 6:
[68:18] Wait, what? Uh-uh.

Speaker 7:
[68:19] The Kardashians.

Speaker 6:
[68:20] Oh, I stopped watching it probably two years ago. It was so bad. It was like an ad.

Speaker 7:
[68:25] Something that I actually want to touch on really fast before we wrap it up, I know I mentioned the fact that Lisa always defends toxic men and has that boys will be boys mentality. What about the fact that on Vanderpump, it was very obvious that Kristin Doty and James Kennedy were in a physically abusive relationship and Lisa completely covered for him. Even after speaking of Ali Luber came out and said that James was abusive, Lisa still, she always took James aside. She always took Jax aside. She always took Santa ball aside, Tom Schwartz aside. I think she loves being the object of affection of all of these men on the show and hates other women.

Speaker 6:
[69:04] Yeah. I think that is not a hot take at all. I think that looking back on her stint on reality TV over the past 15, almost 20 years, almost legitimately, a lot of what she has done has not aged well. And yeah, she's a goaded reality TV star, no doubt. But it's very tough to watch her behavior looking back. And even not only just platforming men, or standing up for men who shouldn't be stood up for, let's talk about her platforming Stassi. Let's not forget that in 2020, you fired Stassi from Vanderpump Rules for doing a horrible thing to Faith, could have lost her military benefits. She could have gotten arrested, she could have gotten incarcerated. The list goes on. Stassi was fired for a very specific reason, and now you're just platforming her on your other show.

Speaker 7:
[69:47] On every season of Vanderpump Villa for whatever reason. It's like that, I can never get back on board the Stassi train.

Speaker 6:
[69:53] No, me neither.

Speaker 7:
[69:53] And I know that a lot of people have forgiven her, and she has apologized and gone on an apology tour, but I will not get over it. Like I think Stassi is, and it's not just, we did a whole Stassi episode, it's not just the Faith thing. She is, remember, Nazi chic or Harvey Weinstein's victims. Can't you just bite his dick off?

Speaker 6:
[70:12] No one could ever make me suck their dick, is what she said.

Speaker 7:
[70:14] Yeah, exactly. It's like she is a disgusting person, I'm sorry. Lisa Vanderpump continues to platform her. But I will say Stassi is the only woman that Lisa Vanderpump continues to give opportunities to. Think about the fact that she gave Tom Tom to Tom Sandoval and Tom Schwartz. Tom Schwartz has never done shit in his life. He's the definition of failing upwards. And all of these women that worked under Lisa for years and years and years never got the same opportunity. Like she just, she is always going to be team man, toxic men.

Speaker 6:
[70:43] Yeah. Yeah. And I think that we couldn't ignore it when the James Kennedy allegations came out at the Christmas party at Kathy Hilton's and then the domestic violence and the police report. Like everyone was looking to Lisa.

Speaker 7:
[70:54] Yeah. And apparently she was actively trying to hide those allegations from coming out. The fact that James was abusive to Dodie.

Speaker 6:
[71:02] Because it makes her look bad because she continues to plop. She's not trying to protect James, just so we're clear. She's trying to protect herself because she stood up for James so many times. Do you remember how many times on Vanderpump Rules he would walk in and wasted, like assault everyone, verbally assault everyone, call Katie fat, then she would let him back for See You Next Tuesdays just the next year? It happened so many times. Lisa, please don't do this to me.

Speaker 7:
[71:22] You're rewarded with See You Next Tuesday after his disgusting behavior.

Speaker 6:
[71:26] What he said to Katie, are you pregnant? What did he say? Maybe go lose some weight. He was horrible to Katie, justice for Katie. Katie is always on the right side of history and we really hated her back in the day because she would always get mean when she would drink tequila.

Speaker 7:
[71:41] Tequila Katie. She was awful. She's so lucky that the show ended when she was on a high note being Team Ariana, but she was awful for years on Vanderpump.

Speaker 6:
[71:51] I think she was so miserable because of Tom, genuinely.

Speaker 7:
[71:53] She was miserable, she was mean, she was just awful. It's funny when a show ends or a cast member ends their tenure on a show, the last season is how you remember them. For a while, Danielle in Summer House was a fan favorite, and then she had a really bad last season. She had a really bad season of Winter House where she basically was, I don't want to say assaulting that guy from below deck, but was really forcing herself onto him. Now, she's back on In the City that's coming out, whatever that's coming out after Summer House.

Speaker 6:
[72:26] No one likes her, it's so painful.

Speaker 7:
[72:27] No one likes her anymore, but she was a fan favorite at one point. It's like wherever, it's like they pause in time. Like they're stuck in wherever they were, or however the audience perceived them on their last season. And I think that goes for Katie Maloney. It's just like, I feel like Lisa just reserves her worst behavior for other women.

Speaker 6:
[72:46] Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. She is deeply misogynistic.

Speaker 7:
[72:50] Yeah. And not to say that like, not to say that Kristen, like Kristen Doty also did, you know, some horrible things, but Kristen was never given another chance by Lisa, whereas James was given chance after chance after chance after chance.

Speaker 6:
[73:03] Great point. Great point. She literally fired Kristen never to return again.

Speaker 7:
[73:08] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[73:09] Like she was so mean to Kristen when she was the one being abused by Jake, almost like Jake, James.

Speaker 7:
[73:14] Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[73:15] It's very dark-sided if you think about it. And actually, there are allegations that at Sheena's wedding, the first wedding with the crop top, that they were getting physical with one another, and Lisa like told production to cut the footage.

Speaker 7:
[73:28] Yeah. She was trying to tech James or herself, as you said. It's just like, I feel like also like the rumors that Ken was like, you know, she's mentioned before that he was a dog during their marriage. And like, I wouldn't be surprised if she put up with Ken, like cheating on her and treating her like shit, because again, she has this internalized misogyny, where it's like, oh, boys will be boys.

Speaker 6:
[73:50] Right. Yeah. That's a very good point. I feel like they portray their relationship to be so beautiful, but I feel like with Ken's anger and her allowance of men to kind of do whatever they want, I'm curious what goes on behind the scenes, like what their dynamic really is like with no cameras.

Speaker 7:
[74:06] Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 6:
[74:08] I doubt it's healthy.

Speaker 7:
[74:09] And I think also the reason that she was like protecting Tom Sandoval during Scandival, and really like taking his side, it felt like, was because of Tom Tom, and she had made an investment in him.

Speaker 6:
[74:20] Oh yeah.

Speaker 7:
[74:21] And so it's once again like this, I can only do things that will benefit me.

Speaker 6:
[74:25] Right, right. It's always self-interested. I mean, like the minimum wage thing. We understand that restaurants are closing like crazy. It's hard to stay afloat. We get that. Cut costs elsewhere, Vanderpump. Don't deny your workers who work so freaking hard. Go to a warehouse that has lower food costs. Like do something, get creative, open later. I don't know.

Speaker 7:
[74:43] Yeah, exactly. Figure out another way to make more money. Sorry, your food fucking sucks. If your decor is tacky and no one wants your restaurant. Exactly. That's not their fault, that's your fault.

Speaker 6:
[74:52] Right. The food is such shit, I guarantee you if you have lower food costs, no one would know the difference because it sucks anyways. Like promise you.

Speaker 7:
[74:58] Oh my gosh.

Speaker 6:
[74:59] Well, that's it on Lisa Vanderpump. We, she, I think that like we, not that we learned anything new. I think it's more so just dissecting how people that get ahead and that earn the most money are the most calculated. Like she's the most goaded because she is so calculated. Like I think about this with C-Speed executives too. It's like you can't be a C-Speed executive without being a little bit psychotic and having a little, like little to no empathy because you have to make cutthroat decisions. And I think she is like pushed away to the top. She is a hard worker, but I think more so she's calculated and mean and she doesn't care who steps in her way. She will stomp on you to get ahead. And that's why she is so successful.

Speaker 7:
[75:39] Yeah. I still have question marks about how they're so rich though, like it doesn't really add up.

Speaker 6:
[75:44] It doesn't. I completely agree. I always get confused, I think for most housewives, including DeBrose, their financial situation is always very confusing to me. So I think they had the largest like real estate transaction in Orange County history. They sold their millions and millions of dollar mansion in Newport for like, I think it was like 65 million. Like I can't even understand that type of money.

Speaker 7:
[76:05] I guess like plastic surgery. I mean, that's like, that's a very, you know, lucrative, crazy lucrative business.

Speaker 6:
[76:12] Totally. And I think they do some flips and stuff. So I think they have some real estate as well.

Speaker 7:
[76:16] Yeah, like, did you gross track to me a little bit more? Like, I still think it's like, whoa, how are you that rich from doing plastic surgery?

Speaker 6:
[76:23] Right, right, right. Like there's a lot of plastic surgery rooms, but they're not like on pin jams all the time.

Speaker 7:
[76:27] Yeah, exactly. But with like the Vanderpumps, I have questions.

Speaker 6:
[76:31] Yeah. I mean, the $20 million loan says it all.

Speaker 7:
[76:33] Seriously. Let us know, you guys. I feel like this, was this our first Housewife? We've done other Bravo Leberties. We've done lots of Bravo Leberties, actually. Stassi, Jax, Craig, Sheena. But let us know what other Housewives or what other Bravo Leberties you guys would like a full deep dive on.

Speaker 6:
[76:51] Have we done Jax?

Speaker 7:
[76:52] Yes, we have done Jax. Jax was like one of our early up.

Speaker 6:
[76:55] I think that was the one when you were like, I can write it in my sleep.

Speaker 7:
[76:57] Yeah. Yeah, Jax could write it in my sleep. But there are obviously so many to choose from. I feel like this could be a fun prompt for Bravo Baby Snarks out there. What Housewives would you like a deep dive on? And as usual, we have links to everything in our show notes. We have bonus episodes and ad free episodes over on our Patreon. And yesterday we did Bachelor Scandals. So if you watch The Bachelor, that might be a fun one for you. And we also have a link to our sub stack, which goes out every Friday. And that has, you know, it's called Snark Bait. Bait size, little musings and also links to things we're loving. And also we have links to our live shows, which are getting closer and closer. And we are so excited to meet you guys IRL. And yeah, so that in our show notes, what else? What am I forgetting?

Speaker 6:
[77:51] No, that's it. We'll see you guys on Tuesday for another episode of Dark Energy Tuesday. And thanks for listening. Bye.

Speaker 7:
[77:57] Bye.

Speaker 6:
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